Free Energy Device, please help me

If it's truly 'free' then no-one is going to buy it when they can go and get it for nothing.

The only way you will get anyone to listen to you is if you substantiate your claims - that includes patent offices, not just web forums.

While I don't think for a second that you have discovered a free form of energy, that doesn't mean you have nothing meaningful. You might have an idea that will hugely increase the efficiency of motors or generators, or otherwise prove useful in ways even you haven't thought of.

Distribute your idea, make sure your name and date are all over it, and let people seriously review your work. You can distribute a serious paper on the idea through submittal to scientific journals, forums like this, google scholar, set up a web site, etc. If it has merit, people will pick it up and spread the word.

As some people have already commented, your written English is terrible. I suggest you write in your native language and have it translated, then publish in both English and your native language.

I have several engineer friends in the US patent office. If your idea has serous merit, I would be glad to advise you on how to properly get it patented. From your writing, I would not be surprised if the patent office rejected it for improper form submittal without even looking at the idea.

Unsubstantiated claims are (rightly) seen as less than useless and never taken seriously.

JANE!!!

STOP THIS CRAZY THING!!!

1. The guy is not looking for investors or money
2. He is only asking for advice from "experts" (how dare him come here, of all places, and humbly ask for guidance!)
3. Neither an A-Type personality, nor martial arts skills are a prerequisite for being an inventor. Bullishness and assertiveness is hardly a measure of a man's ability to contribute to the world of engineering. What an absurd notion that is! Really!!
4. He didn't come to this site to prove anything to any of you. A ridiculously high number of you are sitting there screaming "Prove it! Prove it! Prove it!!" What the ... He doesn't have to prove anything to a single one of you. He asked "how should I produce this device to science community and to public?" That's it. Pay attention, folks.
5. He has not been abusive, improper, disrespectful or rude in any way whatsoever.
6. And lastly .. and definitely most sadly ... take a look at how many of you people are actually trying to make a case for, and justifying, being rude and disrespectful and just plain mean to this man who has done no one any wrong. You can spin it any way you want, but that's the bottom line. "It's okay for me to be abusive and disrespectful to Azeeco because ... blah blah blah" Yeah right. Whatever. As I said before, there is zero reason to treat each other in this manner. Unless of course you are lacking in common courtesy and normal social skills. I wonder how many of you tied tin cans to cat's tails, or blew up frogs with firecrackers when you were children, and laughed with glee. It's very sad. Bodes poorly for all of us at CR4, if newcomers should read some of these comments.

As Vermin said .. Lighten up! Holy cow!

Why is this not obvious to all of you? Or is it me? Is there something wrong with my sense of ethics and integrity?

Right on!...Get em Box!

Few have addressed the question but feel better to berate this poor guy.

here is the EU patent site...I think.

http://www.epo.org/

To you-all,

Damon Runyan used the term "more than somewhat" often in his "shellacking " of various North American characters in his unforgettable stories . Sadly I would say that there have been more than somewhat peers of mine who are impervious to what may be quite innocent but genuine requests for help. Perhaps they distinguish trickery better and quicker than me. Could I be totally wrong ?

It could be that budding Engineers will stay away form such "shellacking " and we will all be intellectually poorer. Lets get back to serious business.

Labor

Geez, what a thin skin you have! The world will not bend to your level of politeness, even if you lecture us, so get off of your soap box. Try not to take online discussions so personally.

Guest ... I'd like to ask for the courtesy of you not hiding behind anonymity while insulting me.

Your definition of "thin-skin" would put people like Hitler with having had very thick skin. Is that correct?

I'll stay on my soapbox, thank you. Spreading decency is hardly something I'm ashamed of, and not something you'll talk me out of. It's not my way, to look the other way at injustices. If that is in fact your way ... well ....

Thank you for making my point.

And by the way, "thin-skinned" is not insult, it merely means extreme emotional sensitivity. People with this trait seem too eager to see insults where they don't exist. This does not help if you want to be taken seriously.

And whether I use a CR4 handle or not is irrelevant. Your handle "Out of Box Experience" is no less anonymous than "Guest".

I tend to agree with the first part of your post, but I seriously disagree with:-

And whether I use a CR4 handle or not is irrelevant. Your handle "Out of Box Experience" is no less anonymous than "Guest".

As a "guest", you are lumped together with those who have either not joined or not logged on, you are just anonymous.

But with a registered name, you are recognized and known, you could become famous or infamous, whatever you wish. But you are recognizable.

Also, although I have taken the trouble to answer you this time, my opinion of a guest is that really your opinions don't count for much, if you do not stand up to be counted, sorry about that.

I personally mostly ignore Guest posts as not even being worth the space on the screen....as if you cannot back up your words with a proper logon, why should we take you seriously?

Rant over. Going back to "Ignore Guests Mode".

As a "guest", you are lumped together with those who have either not joined or not logged on, you are just anonymous.

Okay, I stand corrected: "Out of Box Experience" is *slightly less* anonymous than "Guest".

But with a registered name, you are recognized and known, you could become famous or infamous, whatever you wish. But you are recognizable.

But CR4 handles certainly do not compare to our true names and true reputations, which are difficult to change. I can change CR4 handle any time I want, thereby growing a new reputation here. So they really only supply recognizability until the user changes his/her handle.

Also, although I have taken the trouble to answer you this time, my opinion of a guest is that really your opinions don't count for much... I personally mostly ignore Guest posts as not even being worth the space on the screen....

Well now we know that we can associate the handle "Andy Germany" with arrogance and self-importance.

Going back to "Ignore Guests Mode".

You won't be able to resist replying to Guests since they sometimes make cogent points. But go ahead and bury your head in the sand if that makes you feel better.

Wow. Slammin Andy.

I don't always agree with him, but I respect him. And in a sense .. know him.

You on the other hand ...

Guest, you've crossed a line with those last comments, about all the scheming that is possible here with all the switching of names, etc. Those kinds of things don't cross most of our minds. You are defining yourself with your words.

Ah, this will probably be deleted soon. Yes I think "ignore" is the better course in this case.

[Out of Box Experience wrote:]

Guest, you've crossed a line with those last comments, about all the scheming that is possible here with all the switching of names, etc. Those kinds of things don't cross most of our minds.

Surely you jest! Do you really think that the mostly highly-educated members of CR4 don't have the intelligence to realize that they can get a new CR4 handle? You apparently have a low opinion of us. So I've "crossed a line" by pointing out the obvious? I seriously doubt it. But go ahead and report me for this outrage (maybe I shouldn't mention the shocking fact that some members have multiple CR4 handles -- horrors!) .

Oh dear! You let the cat out of the bag!!! (Sorry Del!!)

How could you have missed my point, by such an unbelievably wide margin?

What I was trying to get across to you was that the typical CR4 member isn't going to want to switch names. Isn't going to find a need to switch around different handles. I didn't mean they are incapable of being able to do that Oh, brother.

Why would anyone do that? Play that kind of game. To what end? What are you ... 12? If you are so heavily into the online forum life, that you need to develop multiple identities ... well ... I don't even know how to respond to that. You might want to find some hobbies that get you outside into the fresh air a bit more. Most of us gave up Dungeons & Dragons by now.

I think it's called being a troll, and it can be a real problem with these types of sites. I've even seen one flip between two different handles and violently fight with himself in an attempt to see whether he could get the rest of the posters stirred up.

I guess it's like the internet equivalent of road rage.

Merely having two or more user-names does not make a person a troll. It depends specifically on what the person posts. A troll posts anti-social or off-topic content in order to provoke others into flame wars (ad honimen attacks being a common tactic).

"I don't want knowledge, I want certainty!!!"

- David Bowie

You are completely correct in what you say that having two logon names, or using Guest and a logon name, does not actually in itself MAKE you a Troll.

But really there is basically no other reason(s) to have and to use both........or have I missed something fundamental and useful?

So I personally find that a bit suspect in itself.......

I personally do not have two logon names and as I am automatically recognized and logged on (unless I am logging on from a new or recently installed computer of course, which has caught me out a couple of times!), I do not have to remember to say who I am each time!!

I prefer it so.

Andy, I would modify your statement to say that there is not reason to use more than one logon name, that makes sense. At least to those of us occupying the predominate consensus reality space.

Outside of that space that most of us share, all bets are off. I encounter this often with people who are not accustomed to interacting with individuals who may be considered to have some type of psychiatric disorder, but one that renders them apparently quite functional, but with components of behavior we can't quite grasp.

Divergent and non-overlapping reality spaces sometimes do not cordially coexist.

I agree with you, although I have to admit my knowledge is limited with respect to this and I had not considered it in the way you have,.....many thanks for your time & trouble, it fits well.

It has also set my mind to rest....

What are you ... 12? If you are so heavily into the online forum life, that you need to develop multiple identities ... well ... I don't even know how to respond to that.You might want to find some hobbies that get you outside into the fresh air a bit more. Most of us gave up Dungeons & Dragons by now.

I guess you must still be talking to me. So lets take stock: I a "coward", a "bully", my posts are a "waste of space", and I'm "12 years old"? Any more insults? Come on, get it out of your system (who's the real bully here?)

Despite your innuendo, I don't have multiple CR4 identities, and I never expressed any desire to try that. So your response to that imagined scenario is non sequitur.

I've never played D&D, but maybe some of the other members have.

Guest, you are one of 1000's under the same name, therefore your opinion from minute to minute gets changed, quicker than most people can change their dirty underwear....

...but if you feel "safer" with your general "Nom de Plume" then carry on as you are, that is your decision.

I personally find it completely cowardly....unable to face any sort of reality..."Guest" probably defines not just your character, but your whole life.......pray please to continue to hide behind your metaphorical wall, it suits you down to the ground!!!

You will probably never amount to being more than just a guest anyway.....real CR4 identities are for people who really want to make a lasting impression...and stand up for it....I trust I have done it for you? At least you know exactly who to address your moans and groans to....

I agree Andy! For the most part, guest are like gnats that fly in your face and annoy you. The develop no known history from which you can get a sense of who they are.

How would it be if a third of the people we met in public wore masks? How comfortable would that be? Most localities have laws forbidding such behavior and for good reason. Why should it be different here?

Also, to all the "sensitive" among us:

This is a public forum. People have different personalities and ways of expressing themselves. Most of the time, no one is overtly abusive. Terse, skeptical, to the point or maybe even harsh but so what? People are different and we have become so oversensitive to not offend anyone that it is cumbersome.

I attempt to be civil in all my posts but I also wish to express myself without undue reservation and sometimes that might infringe on someone's idyllic desire for adoration, too bad. I am not here to make you feel good about yourself. If you have self esteem issues or you have latent agoraphobic tendencies, I suggest you get counseling.

Hm. Let's not mince words crapper. You're suggesting I have self esteem issues and should seek counseling.

And it's "cumbersome" for you to behave in such a way that doesn't offend. Therefore you don't worry about such things. Is that right?

And you verbally pummel a man who merely comes on here to politely ask for guidance in achieving a goal ...

And you don't care for me, and continue to insult me and my ideals because I come to his defense on the basis of integrity and civility.

That's all correct, right? Okay then. Just wanted to make sure I understand where you are coming from. Your avatar pic is very telling and appropriate. It all makes sense.

No, basically none of your interpretations of what I have said are correct but clearly you will insist that they are and perhaps that says something but I do not presume to be wise enough to know exactly what so, different from you I will not infer that I do.

Clearly though, you have not read my posts because in this thread very few of my posts are directed at or respond to the original poster but instead to those who attacked the posters who did respond to the poster but with less than blind enthusiasm. None of the responses I have made directly to the original poster are in the least bit rude or inconsiderate. Also I do not see where any of my posts were in response to any of your posts so don't you think it is a little odd for you to feel personally "pummeled" on a continuous basis by me? Please take the time to do a little research and get the facts straight before you presume to chastise and end up emulating that which you would chastise.

Nor do I suggest that anyone should be rude or inconsiderate nor have I not been either. However, there needs to be a zone that allows for criticism and debate and clearly many who are starry eyed about the hope of free energy do not tolerate such behavior and often seem to report they feel attacked and maligned. They view reference to facts as "being negative" and then more often than not it is they or those who rush to defend them who begin the personal attacks.

What I suggest is balance. When there is no tolerance of difference there will be little opportunity for progress and understanding. This is a technical forum. More can be gotten out of it as such if petty personal issues are not blown out of proportion. We are engineers and scientists, not therapists and psychologists.

I say again, this is a technical forum. It is not mean to say I am not interested in what personality dysfunction you may or may not have and I do expect a degree of focus on the topic to the exclusion of petty personality issues. If that hurts you feelings then I really can't help you with that. This is a technical forum. This is a technical forum. Perhaps you would be more likely to find whatever it is you are looking for elsewhere.

[Andy Germany wrote:]

I personally find it [posting as a guest] completely cowardly....unable to face any sort of reality..."Guest" probably defines not just your character, but your whole life.......pray please to continue to hide behind your metaphorical wall, it suits you down to the ground!!!

You will probably never amount to being more than just a guest anyway.....real CR4 identities are for people who really want to make a lasting impression...and stand up for it....I trust I have done it for you? At least you know exactly who to address your moans and groans to....

Woke up on the wrong side of the bed? "Guest defines my whole life", huh? Could you be any more shrill? So everyone who posts here as a guest is a "coward"? Then that would apply to some of the regular members, including "power users" like me. Many of my messages (posted under my CR4 handle) have received appreciative feedback from various members, including so-called "Gurus", and even including you. But, wow, just because I occasionally forget my password (or feel to lazy to log in), that suddenly makes me a total loser? Geez, get a grip on your emotions. The forum policy states that *Guests are welcome to post*. So should guests suffer insults when they do? You should apologize for your ad honimen attack on me. I don't understand your obsession with identity labels. Your hostility is irrational. The *content* of the messages is what matters, and this is validated by reason, reference to documented sources, and the testimony of real experts, not by the "reputation" (nor mere number of posts) of a semi-anonymous CR4 member.

And yes, you have made quite an impression on me (and others), but one you might regret in retrospect.

svengali

Svengali Guest ... Andy's comments came after you made disrespectful comments about my own views. One of his points was that if you are going to take that path, at least identify yourself. That was an example of the "cowardly" part he was referring to. Do you see no validity to that reasoning?

People must realize the difference between disagreement (which I have no problem with, at all), and ridicule and disrespect. The distinction is quite clear. Anonymous disagreement is not a big deal. Anonymous ridicule and disrespect is quite another matter. We are not a grade school mob here, where "dis'ing" and talking smack is cool. And doing it from behind a curtain as a "Guest"... well ... surely you can acknowledge the inappropriateness of that, among a group of professionals such as we are.

We come here to enjoy and relax and share and learn. Disagreeing .. agreeing .. bantering .. whatever. But to make a comment, and have people imply that you're an idiot for having made that comment, then leave here thinking "man, what a bunch of jerks" ... isn't that contrary to the purpose of having a professional forum? Not sure why that is such a difficult idea to get across.

[Out of the Box wrote:]

Svengali Guest ... Andy's comments came after you made disrespectful comments about my own views. One of his points was that if you are going to take that path, at least identify yourself. That was an example of the "cowardly" part he was referring to. Do you see no validity to that reasoning?

No, because I did not make any disrespectful comments about you. And Andy Germany's snobbery towards guests was unprovoked. If you think that I disrespected you, please quote the exact comments (I don't consider "thin-skinned" and insult, but rather a neutral and accurate description of a personality trait). And who was the one to start spewing the insult "coward"? Wasn't me. Spare me the sermon. You seem excessively sensitive. Stop playing the victim, and move on. I'm done with this increasingly pointless thread. You can have the last word.

Last word? Thank you. I'll take it.

I'm sorry Svengali, I'm not a bystander when it comes to injustices. And the man who started this thread was quite unfairly horsewhipped and ridiculed just because he came here for assistance. Bottom line.

Box

I sent you a message check your mail

Traditional

Well put (as usual!)

Its difficult to judge why people hide behind the name guest, (some of them have really interesting things to say, but as its unattributable, that is a problem) especially if they have a proper logon as well, which could have been used......

Laziness is probably the least offensive reason for that, there are plenty of others......I think that I/we are each allowed in such cases to have our own opinions on the reasons, its a free world, don't you agree?

I have spoken with you long enough as guest, whoever you are, and by the way, putting a possible logon name at the end of a guest signon does not guarantee that you are that person, but it could possibly be true. We will all have to wait and see.......won't we?

Have a great day anyway.

putting a possible logon name at the end of a guest signon does not guarantee that you are that person, but it could possibly be true. We will all have to wait and see.......won't we?

Not for very long. Simply ask. Yes, I posted message #128 in this thread

I'm quite sure I'm taken seriously, thank you.

The rest of what I have to say about Mr. Guest, was said by Andy, below.

Let me clarify. I'm as skeptical about this magnetic engine as the rest of you. That's not the point. Look, I enjoy contributing to, and learning from, these types of web forums. A sharing of information and opinions in this way is a technological blessing for all of us. I really love it. It's good for my mind, and my soul. I enjoy it.

But in every forum, there are without exception, The Bullies. Nothing irks me more, and disrupts the enjoyment of a place like this more, than watching a Bully in action. A bully that, because of the physical separation of all of us from each other ... and the lack of names ... feel free to step out of the rules of civility and professional conduct, and basically be A holes to others who they don't agree with. And they don't even have to suffer any consequences because they are safe behind the internet. It's a new world, where this is now possible. And very unfortunate.

I simply don't like my enjoyment spoiled by these people. Ignoring them doesn't work for me, so I must speak up. Normally a lost cause, but occasionally not. The other option is to never read CR4. That would be a loss to me.

But what can I say? I don't like mean people. And looking the other way, I feel is irresponsible. It's the way I live.

I apologize for my occasional lectures. I don't mean to sound pretentious. Hopefully, in the end, I benefit the CR4 community more than I deter from it. Mostly, I love you guys!

It just seems that more than half of our community has taken to Petty Sniping and just use it as a forum for chat among their colleague's

How true. In person, in a group, you have all kinds of people. In person, most of the complainers would not have the guts to whine about the bullies or criticize other's method of presentation or oration. You would stay on topic and just think "Well I like that guy but that guy over there is a jerk." So it goes, in person.

Here, we have the luxury of separation and everyone thinks they are the personality police and want to burn up bandwidth criticizing personality issues that would mostly be tolerated in person. And now, yes, I realize I am the pot calling the kettle black but that seems to be the sub-topic, so there!

Thanks, I needed someone to agree with today. And then it will be tomorrow and we can start over.

RCapper, as usual, you have some good valid points to put, many thanks.

How about becoming a recognized member of the forum.

cr3

Quote:

He asked "how should I produce this device to science community and to public?" That's it.

Ok, Sorry, Mr. Azeeco, how may we be of service?

Your question is somewhat unclear though; do you want a facility to produce it, give it to science, or give or sell it to the public. Would you please elaborate?

Thank you very much,

If you truly believe in yourself and have a working prototype, then find Investors who are willing to start a pilot project for a real life situation.

The next step is scale your prototype up and generate some real power once the concept is proven you should be able to line up Investors and Government funding for green power.

Good luck

NOLO books has an excellent book that addresses your needs.

http://www.nolo.com

cr3

Come on Gang, this is like the dowsing thread.

Lets be professional and not dis anyone.

Questioning minds working out of the box Acadamia has put us in probably cost a lot of stuff to be shelved.

How did vulcanizing get discovered, if I remember right it was an accident, as has been many other discoveries (that were considered impossible at the time) been made. Have you checked out the following thread here on C4 from the Toronto Star???

Vortex Energy fro a Manmade Tornado

Should I proclaim in all of my crankyiness and snobbisness that he should be committed to the Insane Asylum???

So many comments talking about so much but saying so little. Lets keep it simple and civilised shall we. I shall be brief.

1) Free energy magnet generators don't work. They may work for a very short time, but then the magnets fail and the system stops. There is no fix for this due to numerous universal and electrical laws (the second law of thermodynamics is only one of them).

2) Most problems (by which I mean discovering a free energy generator) occur due to lack of electrical knowledge, poor lab work, optimistic assumption ("if I just fix this, this, this and this it will be perfect"), etc

3) I have said this all before, this idea has been tried, proclaimed, patented, tested, peer reviewed and FAILED so many times that it is starting to lose all meaning. You must have reviewed all the designs on the internet proclaiming free energy generators. Why are none of the designers rich? Why are there no free energy generators around? Why?

4) The Patent office gave up on the free energy magnet system a long time ago, if you check the existing patents you will find your design patented by someone else decades ago.

5) Free energy generator designers fall into only two category's - a) the misguided, b) the scam artist.

6) Lets step back and look at the big picture here. The value of a free energy generator would be worth , lets see a figure. How about 100 trillion dollars. The entire power industry would be obsolete! If free energy were possible patents would not protect you (they really don't offer much protection to anyone).

7) There is no free lunch, you cannot get something for nothing, etc.

Please spend a great deal of time learning the fundamentals of electricity, magnetism and physics and work from there. We can talk and talk and you can listen or ignore, but in the end it really is up to YOU to learn for yourself why this type of free energy design doesn't work.

Jack - A power generation, transmission and distribution engineer.

Hi Jack,

Well said. I agree with you completely. One point I want to ask you about though:

You said "They may work for a very short time, but then the magnets fail and the system stops." What is the reason for the magnet failure? Would this failure also apply to alnico, neodymium, or other, permanent magnets?

You said "7) There is no free lunch, you cannot get something for nothing, etc." Most certainly true. I think the closest one can probably get to "free" energy is solar, wind, wave, etc. I didn't say it's free mind you. I know there are always losses, but these methods come about as close as one can get.

-John

The magnets demagnetise and lose their magnetic properties. Applies to all permanent magnets (sure the more exotic compounds may last longer but are far more expensive to produce). What it simply boils down to is - The magnets act as a HIGHLY inefficient fuel, and need to be replaced (or remagnatised) when they quickly wear out. AND BEFORE ANYONE ASKS, NO you cannot use an electromagnet powered from the generator and use the generator to provide the current to power the electromagnet <sigh>.

Don't get me started on current solar power technologies, NONE are viable at the moment . Continued developments in the area of solar power look promising thou so here's hoping in the near future the efficiency and manufacturing cost (both in raw materials and required power to produce a panel) will finally make solar power viable on a large scale (rather than just being useful for powering a remote site where other power methods are unsuitable) .

If they can get the price down the most promising power generating technologies look like geothermal and wave.

Jack - Helping to keep the lights on down here, and enlighten those around the world.

You have put all my personal thoughts (that I was not sure enough about to put onto (metaphorical paper!) into a concise nutshell, many thanks.

So it would appear that my personal knowledge is not too far from the state of the art at this time!!

You made me very happy.....

Well that's what we do as humans, isn't it? We go around looking for potential energy - energy that's already there, it's just kept from escaping by some natural means. When we want it, we kick the proverbial rock out of the stream and let the flood come through.

That's what we all do, one way or another.

Gwen, I love how you've explained that. I agree wholeheartedly! Well done.

Imagine is a good word and doesn't have boundaries, even if we see some of those boundaries as unsurpassable today.

Those that ridiculed Galileo were the experts in their field. EVERYBODY knew that Aristotle had pegged the structure of the universe. It was geocentric. It had been proven for centuries, and the astronomers of those days would groan whenever some crackpot suggested the earth was not the center. They all tried to set him straight about what was known science. Even during their CRIV discussions.

Hmm ... where have I seen this before ...

this ought to stir it up...as if it werent already.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0KHZ53g678

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zXya2gNyFc

how quickly do magnets loose their magnetism

mine have been holding on for decades

It didn't run without energy. It oscillated for 5 seconds. Oscillation is a condition that, in a resonant system, can easily sustain for 5 seconds. The energy was simply the energy from the finger, oscillating. This is a classic example of seeing what you want to see instead of what really happened.

The other guy has as many sites expanding on what a scam he is as one's in favor. Has all the classic trappings of a scam artist. All he needs is a few more dollars...

OH of course. You are Brilliant and I am a dumb Bunny........!!

Thanks for the excellent explanation.....

I feel that it needs a lot more studying and a lot more infos before we can make any sort of stand. RCapper has put it well, Oscillation only.....

I thank you most kindly, (as you are not logged in with a name, we have no idea which one of 1000s of Guests you are!!).

Why not join CR4 fully and give yourself a logon Mr No name? You are more than welcome!!

The definition of a con? Find someone that wants something for nothing; give that person nothing for something.

"Here comes a Charlie...." - was that expression based upon the screen behaviour of a certain Mr. Chaplain?

I sent the original poster a message and he does exist .

I think you will hear from him again .

Hopefully if he does the CR4 community will treat him respectfully and he may or may not have something to offer .

I believe that even if his findings are misguided ,thats science ,trial and error ,and doesn't warrant ridicule .

At least he's trying and you never know he might have something .

I can sometimes ramble on, and my point gets lost in the sheer number of words I write. But thank you Traditional, your last message boils it all down. Exactly my point. I guess some people get it, and others never will. Some will find justification for their behavior no matter what it is. There is no changing a dogs spots, nor how people treat each other.

Anyway, there's nothing I can say that I haven't already. I'm glad that there are a select few who share my viewpoints on ethical behavior and simple respect among peers ... just as you've written. No one deserves ridicule. That's very plain to me. Azeeco was responded to by several of you, without resorting to riducule. That clearly shows it can be done.

To the rest of you ... well ... I guess the world is made of all kinds of people. C'est la vie.

Y'all have heard enough from me.

thanks out of box

I think Gwen should be noted as having a good point as well .

I never have had a problem with anyone disagreeing with my point of view as long as they show respect and common decency ,just as they would have done to them

Yes, I commented on Gwen's posting also. Absolutely. I felt a bit isolated there for a while. Thank you.

Sorry buddy, but you probably should think it through again, and/or publicly demonstrate the "free-ness" of the device. When I was young, there used to be a very common bumper sticker. It read: "Gas, Grass, or Ass..... noboby rides for free"........

Just a general comment, if I may. Some contributors seem to suggest that those who point out the flaws in the proposal (conservation of energy, 2nd law of thermodynamics etc) thereby lack creativity.

It doesn't follow that because someone can see why something cannot work (so doesn't waste time on it) is likely to lack creativity in fields that may yield something useful. Of course it's sometimes valuable to ponder the impossible, as long as it's not taken too far....!

Cheer...Codey

I believe that can be simply answered

At one time the best minds believed the world was flat

On that note ... when I sit back and try to imagine the facts of the universe and physics that will be well known to the people 400 years from now ... things totally different from what we think we know today ... it boggles the mind. It's very humbling.

On the other hand ... maybe we will break the cycle of history, and everything we know today will prove to be 100% correct?

What is the record for the number of posts to any thread in this forum?

Not sure here but the all time record I am aware of goes to the thread from google group sci.electronics.design at 17120 messages. How did it achieve such a number?, well there is only one thing that inflames the community more than free energy. The topic "Jihad Needs Scientists" (obviously meant as a fishing thread by a sad little troll).

That's one of the reasons why I stick with CR4, its like trying to hold an engineering discussion in a political arena over there. It just doesn't work! AND THE SPAM!

Did you ever bite into an apple and see half a worm? I doubt it.

Why not use it as a power source for the lead to gold converter? Naw, that takes a supernovae... and uses lots of hydrogen, amongst other things.

I recall reading about one man who created Diamonds and got treated like this, though...

We of little faith.

WOW!! What an outstanding reply to the original question! Outstanding in every sense.

A few bad apples were beginning to ruin things for me here on CR4. But you've really restored my faith, Blink. You took the high road. I truly appreciate that.

Wow, very good, very detailed answer! Thanks Ken.

But I want to ask about a specific technical point that you mentioned:

you'll want to let your proof-of-concept prototype run for perhaps a month or so, and check that it hasn't used any energy from any possible other source (such as the magnets weakening).

I have heard this idea about deriving energy from the weakening of permanent magnets. But I have never heard of any physics which would allow this to occur. To demagnetize permanent magnets, we must overcome the mutual attraction between aligned magnetic domains. This requires energy input, e.g., heating or hammering the magnet. Or applying a fluctuating electromagnetic field. Or forcing same poles of two magnets together (N-N, S-S). The entropy does change favorably during demagnetization, since the demagnetized state is disordered. But I've always thought that the unfavorable enthalpy change dominates, resulting in an unfavorable Gibbs free energy change. If anyone can explain how permanent magnets can store energy, I'd love to hear about it. I think they can't (otherwise why can't I buy a magnetic battery?).

Thanks Ken that advise can transfer to any potential invention.

I hope the original poster receives it after all the hoopla ,I hope you took the time to forward it to his mailbox .

Whatever the outcome common decency has prevailed ,the way it should be.

I have never seen a magnet motor work in any way shape or form (other than in internet videos that show something spinning). There are an alarming number of people working on "replications" but I'd have to admit, I'm not sure what they are trying to replicate... the failure to function?.

But in any event, one reason proposed for the "working" of these motors (if there is one that does) is that the energy used to magnetize the magnet is used up in making the motor turn, especially if the magnets are used in repulsive fashion (which is virtually always the case in these motors). One can imagine designing a rotating device that demagnetizes magnets -- but to what end? I am unaware of any "magnet motor" that works well enough to even present this magnetization energy as being a reason for their working for a limited time.

Frankly it makes little sense to me, but this is one such argument. Most of these motors, as drawn, would, from as far as I can see, simply slow down in the same way any electric motor does, when turned off. The magnets would not supply the net torque to make them go through a full revolution, let alone continuous revolution. Spin them up, they spin down, magnets or no magnets. The gravity machine of DaVinci "looked" sort of like it would work, until you calculate the torque contributed at each point, and find that it all cancels out.

[Blink wrote:]

one reason proposed for the "working" of these motors (if there is one that does) is that the energy used to magnetize the magnet is used up in making the motor turn,

[svengali replied:]

But as I already pointed out, it takes an *input* of energy to demagnetize a permanent magnet. Do you disagree with my assertion?

[Blink wrote:]

Frankly it makes little sense to me [referring to energy from magnets], but this is one such argument.

[svengali replied:]

That link leads to a posted message that uses a misleading argument. Here is the key excerpt:

Every magnet has a "maximum energy product" rated in Mega Gauss Oersteds, MGOe. This is the amount of work a magnet can do before its level of magnetism has deteriorated to the point that its energy doesn't reach out far enough to affect anything surrounding it. Contrary to the popular notion that rare earth magnets are invincible, even the most expensive sintered NdFeB magnets max out at less than 50 MGOe. If they are used in a device that puts them constantly in opposition, they will run down, and this is the whole assumption behind so-called "magnetic motors".

[end quote]

"Maximum energy product" is a valid term, but the given definition, "the amount of work a magnet can do...", misuses the concept of work. Magnets do no work. In order for a magnet to moves through an opposing field, some *force* must push that magnet. That force (by acting over a distance) is doing the work. The force could be water falling through a hydroelectric plant, or a steam turbine at an oil-fired power plant, or my legs pedaling my bicycle wheel that has a DC generator attached to it. The magnets merely relay the force applied to them (and have the very useful ability to push electrons through wires). Permanent magnets do experience weakening of their fields, but not because some sort of magnetic energy is lost. Their magnetic domains are just being randomized as damagingly strong outside forces are applied to them. There simply is no verification at all for the idea of extracting energy from magnets. Even Steorn's promised "Orbo" demonstration, so confidently predicted, never happened and is now beginning to fade from memory. Someone with some hardcore electromagnetism expertise please tell me that my reasoning is wrong, or that it's not.

Blink, I am glad to hear that you have doubts about this idea of getting energy from magnets, but please clarify whether you think that it "makes no sense" because: (A) it is impossible according to currently accepted physics, or (B) it is physically possible, but inefficient.

Svengali,

You can indeed get work from a magnet. Take a simple magnet and suspend it 1.25 inches above an air table. Slide a piece of iron beneath on a puck so the iron's face is 1.2 inches above the table. Note that the magnet picks up the iron and raises it 0.05 inches. Weigh the iron. Calculate mgh. That is work. QED. (The air table was only there to eliminate friction). Not useful, but demonstrable.

Tom

This is not what I mean by getting "energy from a magnet". After all, how can the arrangement you describe operate in a cyclic way, without outside interference, to continue doing work (producing energy) for extended periods of time? (as Azeeco claimed). It can't; someone must pull the magnet and iron pieces apart in order to recreate the starting position. But then that someone is indirectly supplying *all* of the energy.

Based on your approach, I could claim "energy from a brick" by demonstrating that the Earth can pull a brick towards it and do work (e.g., pumping water uphill). Problem is that this would be a one-shot energy output. Someone would need to do work on the system (provide energy input) in order to reset (lift) the brick for the next cycle. A brick, a magnet, or an electrostatically charged object (i.e., anything experiencing a force) can supply a limited amount of potential energy if allowed to move, but cannot provide a continuing source of energy as free energy proponents claim.

Sorry, no cigar.

I apologize. I was being a bit of a wisenheimmer. As I said "not useful".

Anyway, there really is energy in a magnet that is in excess of the same materials demagnetized. We just can't extract it. And, somewhere there may someday, somehow, be a machine that allows extraction, but it will never be free because that energy has to be put in there to start with. Plus inefficiencies.

But, my point about suggesting a forum for strange ideas is that there is a lot of science involved in disproving this stuff. Obviously you're familiar with the perpetual motion museum - think about the sliding magnet "motor" and how easily that fools people and really how hard it is to explain simply why it doesn't work.

Folks like the hard-core science/tech "toolies" on here can understand and accept such stuff pretty easily, but the general public is constatntly being fooled by "bad science" that we have a hard time countering.

Rant tabled.

Tom

[TVP45 wrote:]

Anyway, there really is energy in a magnet that is in excess of the same materials demagnetized. We just can't extract it.

[svengali replied:]

I keep hearing this assertion -- even from engineering types -- but it has no basis in science as far as I can tell. Please point to some kind of source to back it up. I have studied chemistry and physics for many years, and I have never seen any journal or textbook, nor heard any professor, mention this alleged "magnet energy". I think that it qualifies as an urban legend (initially propagated by free energy enthusiasts). Actually, I'm surprised than no one at CR4 has (as far as I know) claimed that permanent magnets expend energy as they cling to a refrigerator door, holding themselves up against gravity. I don't mean the initial motion when the magnet moves towards the door; I refer to the act of just clinging motionlessly, holding up my shopping list.

I accept your challenge. Perhaps I am completely wrong about that and have merely failed to properly classify positional energy. I'll get back to you.

In the meantime, I (and others on this forum) have been perhaps too quick to prejudge the US Patent Office. If you examine US Patent 6305165, I think it sneaks a perpetual motion buoyancy machine in by the back door, i.e., the principal claims are about methods for analyzing such a device.

Tom

Svengali,

I thought about this a little and think I think the following:

In a soft magnetic material, there is clearly an energy loss associated with the area of the B-H curve, i.e., heat that you can feel.

In a hard magnetic material, there is also a B-H curve which remains after the magnetizing field is removed. It has an area which I believe (but cannot easily think of a way to prove) is associated with energy stored in that permanent magnet. One reason I think so is that, in the old days of computers, core memory required us to put in enough energy to overcome H_c before we could begin to remagnetize it. That energy is apparently not accessible by current means and is, I think, extremely small in the instance of the square Mu materials so often used in permamnent magnets. If I had to make a guess (and this is ONLY a guess), I would look at some sort of strain in the crystal structure, rather like magnetostriction. Whatever form that energy takes, it does not usually run down. There can be an exception raised where very high energy density PM magnets partially demagnetize themselves when removed from a motor without a keeper, but that is simply the case of exceeding H_c.

There is also an energy associated with the field created by those magnets and that is generally the source of confusion with "free energy" devices. If I take the little toy magnets (a Scotty and a Westie) and force them nose-to-nose, there is energy stored in that configuration, but it is a strain in the magnetic field rather analogous to a stretched gumband. The crystal alignment structure inside those magnets created that field which is now distorted by the positions, but, so long as H_c is not exceeded, is not affected. The "free energy" inventors typically use that field strain to move some part of their engine and believe they have somehow extracted the internal energy of the magnet.

So, I think I have not proved the point that there is internal energy in a PM and I don't have a good way to think about that just now. Nonetheless, your question is most excellent. Perhaps someone else has some idea?

Tom

Tom,

Thank you for your detailed answer. Glad to see that someone else gives serious thought to the question. You make a good point regarding the existence of tiny amounts of energy stored as mechanical strain. I could see how these might very briefly confuse a "free energy" experimenter (maybe this is what confused Steorn, assuming they're merely confused). But clearly these strain energies are much to small to sustain the continuous operation and excess energy claimed by some over-unity claims.

Info on Steorn:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Steorn_Free_Energy

That link leads to a posted message that uses a misleading argument. Here is the key excerpt:

... "a" misleading argument? I think virtually all these arguments are misleading. The paragraph you quote is typical of many such arguments, in that it makes mention of some scientific principal, apparently in hopes that the rest of the argument will sound "scientific".

But as I already pointed out, it takes an *input* of energy to demagnetize a permanent magnet. Do you disagree with my assertion?

No, not all all, I agree completely. I was only supplying the link so you could see where the arguments (that you can get energy out of magnets) come from. When I wrote "this is one such argument" I didn't intend to suggest that it was a valid argument.

Ken, I am glad to hear that you have doubts about this idea of getting energy from magnets,

To say that I "have doubts" understates the case, substantially. It's a bit like saying I have doubts that the sun will rise in the west tomorrow. Re "making no sense" to me, it's because I agree with statement A. But I am weak on string theory. Perhaps someone strong in string theory could convince me that the world as I know it is not at all what I think it is.

Elsewhere on this forum, I've argued 'til blue in the face re perpetual motion machines, and invariably those arguments only strengthen the "inventor's" resolve that there is some conspiracy against him and all like-minded individuals who believe in magic. So here, I thought I'd take another tack, that being to consider the original poster's post as truthful: he says his machine works perfectly. OK. If that is the case, then he's on his way to becoming the world's richest man. As I said in my post to him, I can't imagine how it would work. But then prior to Einstein, people thought slowing time was difficult.

Funny you should mention Steorn: I've mentioned them several times as examples of scamsters, and they have managed to gain investment dollars based on their claims, I believe -- so as far as I can tell, they should be locked up. I'll predict that very soon, they will be mentioned as part of the "proof" that there is a conspiracy against the development of free energy machines: perish the thought that any one of the principals should get sick, or die: legends are made of this stuff. Read about Stanley Meyer.

Didn't his little brother Oscar invent the wiener?

Wrong Meyer.

He was talking about the third of the three: Johnny Metro, Gabe Goldwyn and Sam Meyer.

aka: MGM

Well, roar!

[Blink wrote:]

To say that I "have doubts" understates the case, substantially. It's a bit like saying I have doubts that the sun will rise in the west tomorrow.

[svengali replied:]

Thanks, glad to hear it. Just wanted to make sure, mainly because I worried that less scientifically literate readers might get the impression that you might support the idea of "magnet energy". It's important to confront this myth because it (along with "water as fuel") provides the most common starting point for modern-day "free energy" scams. Permanent magnets do *not* store energy. We never hear about a permanent magnet based battery (don't count devices that generate electricity by moving a magnet through a coiled wire -- these require outside energy input). Why not? Because there is no physical mechanism we know of that could allow this to happen. And no one has any empirical evidence supporting this idea (not even mavericks who proudly display their disdain for theory).

What about electrets?

Interesting point vermin. However it seems that an electret is something like an electrostatic equivalent of a magnet. Just as with a magnet it is a static field that does not produce energy when its circuit is closed or open but only when it closes. However the field self-restores after shorting so maybe there is some possibility of getting a tiny bit of energy periodically. It would be an interesting experiment to see if a device could be built that would pump enough electrons to operate a control that would pump enough electrons to operate the control. Maybe even with enough surplus to flash an LED once in a great while. Hmmm.

How about this. Isn't ther a fairly significant voltage gradient just in free space? Again though I suspect the available current would be so low as to defy accumulation but who knows?

I have heard (repeat heard) that if one end of a wire is suspend several hundred feet in the air, and the other end hangs down to the ground, you can get small sparks by striking the wire against a ground spike.

Don't know whether this really works, however, as you say, there may not be enough current to do anything - People have built coils to generate electricity from the Earth's fluctuating magnet field. It works, but the current produced is very low.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I was somewhat disappointed with the content of the posted question.

When I read "Free Energy Device, please help me" I was hoping for something more like the following...

"Aaaaaarrrrggggg!!! I made this machine, and I turned it on, and now it's running all over the house breaking the furniture and hurting the kid!!! I can't turn it off, because it's some how making free energy! PLEASE HELP ME!!!!!!"

Or something like that.

The device you describe is called a dog, more specific a puppy between 6 and 12 months.

Stop feeding him and it will stop automatic. (It could get worse for some day's but keep your leg straight, even when he's chewing it)

Surely the Puppy food (energy?) cannot be considered as "free"???

Also, withholding water will work quicker I am told!!

Macabre subject.....!

(I know, you didn't start, Vermin did!!! Let us both blame him!!

All together now "SILLY BOY!!")

I hope the dog chews of his network cable and than our problem halts for a period.

It could also be that he is smarter than he looks and has a wireless network. (his legs are already gone)

Felicitations,

Il fallait que cela arrive au deux centieme message et que , par surcroit ,cela vienne de la Belgique.

Frankly this is not a thread anymore it is a massive hawser.

The initiator is remarkably muted . I wonder why ? Whatever it is due to, the ride has been enjoyable albeit with the barbed comments.

Congratulations,

Good on you, you-all.

Labor

Could you please translate the first part.

I'm from the north.

Strangely people think that in Belgium we all spreak French.

Nothing is less true: only 35% of the inhabitants do speak something that is understandable when you know some French. (Not to offend de French)

You are right on the subject: this tread is gone far off the nominal tracks. But what do you want with such a question and an initiator who is not reacting.

I apologize . You are right not all Belgiums speak French.

The first part was " it had to reach the 200 messages and it was good that the 200th was from a Belgium person ". I hope that you are not offended in any way. ( for your information my Grand-Parents originate from Belgium.)

Best Regards,

Labor Omnia

No problem, I do speak French, as a second language.

But you should know Belgians are a bit nervous when it comes on language.

It is now 85 day's since the national elections and we have no government in formation, all due to language trouble. So it might end up that I need to change the user group. (some of the elected politicians do really want to split the country, which in fact should never have existed if countries are based on the people that live inside)

So what do most Belgians speak? Belgian?

Love your waffles, hate your sprouts.

They make good chocolate too my wife tells me!!