Would You Buy a Tesla?

To start with myself. Would I buy a Tesla? The answer is no. I have a few reasons.

1. I would have "range anxiety". Knowing that I can't just stop in a gas station to fill up ... I don't think I could take it.

2. Would I take a Tesla or a gas powered car of the same MSRP? I'd take the gas powered car. Why? Range anxiety, followed by my desire to no be treated as a guinea pig. And, I believe it takes many years for a car company to be really good. I've heard that Tesla cars have some production type issues. For that kind of money, I'll take a BMW or Porsche instead.

3. I don't see the value in the car. I believe there are better choices out there.

Range anxiety? No prob. Just lower your car onto the electric "skate" and let your electric car be ferried through a tunnel at 124mph..

Fantastical!?

Let look at this backwards and upside down so we can get a better idea of what's really on his mind.

Models .. X3S

Musk indeed

(The above scenario is not going to save a nickel or a minute)

You've got to be joking.

The pathetic range is an insult and then you add that to the thumb-twiddling, finger-tapping pathetic recharge time and the inevitable built in software bugs plus the faulty sensors that can't see the broadside of a tractor trailer and you actually think any sane person would pay $69k - $80k to be a crash test dummy for their flagrantly faulty software?

When for $57,500 you can buy a masterpiece of futuristic engineering today.

THE FUTURE. AVAILABLE NOW.

Exactly!

Good way to put it! 1MW of power! Wow!!!

I'm trying to read between the lines. I'm feeling that you're on the fence, but you're leaning a bit toward no???

I would not buy a Tesla, regardless of how much I admire the engineering.

Range anxiety is not the concern, to me. The convenience of perpetually refueling at my home while I sleep, obviates this concern. (Although I'll bet a few Tesla owners from Houston are wondering what to do now.) Then there's the added benefit of probably lower total energy costs.

The MSRP itself for a virtually disposable product is what bothers me. I know the cost of all vehicles are reaching this high of a price. For tried and true technology where a decade of useful service can be expected these prices can be grudgingly tolerated. However, expecting that a 2016 electric only vehicle will still be sound in 2022 seems premature to me. Particularly when packing this many lithium power cells with an expected lifetime of only seven years for each cell seems unwise. Remember the stored energy of the other cells can cause the failing cell to ignite. I know that proper engineering can mitigate this in much the same way that ten plus gallons of gasoline in a vehicle fuel tank has been mitigated.

Now if somebody were to give me either an all electric or gasoline powered vehicle, I'll take the fun new toy any day. Thank you very much.

You make a good point. Battery life at 7 years and the battery slowly degrades as it gets older. A friend of mine had a Prius Plug in. When it was new, he was able to drive 12 miles to work in EV mode. At three years (end of his lease), he couldn't even go 10 miles without the gas engine kicking in.

If these are the same general type of Li-Ion batteries as in my cell phone, I wouldn't expect to get 7 good years of useful life out of them. In about 2-3 years my phone starts to drain about twice as fast as it did new, to where I had to charge it after lunch to make it through the rest of the day. I never kept one long enough to see where the battery ended up after 7 years...

these batteries are good for about 2000 charge cycles then all around performance degrades, slower charging loosing charge faster etc.

That's a good point. that narrows down the life of the battery to less then a week.

great point. I do know many of the electric trucks and buses also use Super caps to store the braking energy then give it right back on initial re-acceleration

A year or two ago some guy on ebay had loads of take out units from some experimental buss line or something like that he was selling for cheap. ~$25 - $30 each depending on how big of lot you took.

~3000 Farad @2.5 volts I think. The guy had hundreds of them at least.

Sort of wish I had bought a dozen or two now. I've wasted more money on lesser things.

Not sure about good answer, but that one heck of a good question, and yes, I think it at least counts to the extent that electrons are being rammed and crammed back in there (in the form of Li+ ions going home to their intercalated garages).

well, I couldn't find the 'Good Point' button. I think someone took it.

According to the good folks at Gates battery when they say cycles they are referring to one complete charge and discharge.

That's generally how I have understood it as well but there seem to be some fudge-factors in how partial cycles count as well.

Heavy discharge followed by high recharge seems to have a fair amount of wear and tear value with many types of batteries even if the discharge and recharge depths are not all that high.

I'm not sure how automotive Lithium battery tech factors it out in the long run but I know that with cordless tool batteries that use NiCad and NiMH topologies high discharge rated followed by rapid recharging takes a lot out of the service life even if they were not being ran down all the way between recharge cycles.

So how are partial charges counted. I had a Yale electric forklift, the sales guy told me, to run the battery low, and charge, and to avoid, running the battery partially drained like a 1/4 or 1/2 way and then charge that counts as a charge.

but hey... I only repeat what I hear... and sometimes what I dream

If he was a good salesman, he would've told you that, so he could sell you a second unit. Run the battery low and charge. But don't let the battery go to zero. If you accidentally do that, your warehouse stops and you don't want that do you? So why don't we order a second forklift. You can keep one fully charged and use the other one until it's near 0 charge, then turn start charging it, while you jump in the 2nd unit and you're back in business!

Please sign here and we'll set up a line of credit with low monthly payments.

Very well put, that 2000 hits almost every battery type around except LA in my personal opinion.

Certainly the phones, laptops and e-bikes, that is ones I have personally experienced.....have about a 2000 charges "barrier".....some a bit more, and ones (my opinion only!) "badly" charged, quite a lot less....

The advances in Battery technology is advancing rather rapidly.

Its interesting to a novice the issues battery technology presents such as (as a layman) basically short circuiting within the battery itself by a built-up (Some type of oxide or something created by ions???) up to and through the insulating layer. and when it passing through the insolating layer, an almost instantaneous discharge occurs. And look up for the fire works.

I saw where there is a development where this is reduced greatly, but its still in the lab. I wish I could recall the terms they used.

its called a dream

that's how innovation usually begins

The research on the new Aluminum metal battery, has essentially none of the pitfalls of Li+ ion tech. Lots more cycles way over 10,000 and with very much faster charge times, and deeper cycles. More volts per cell also. The most expensive part of these batteries is the liquid organic electrolyte that is used.

Another possibly great development is the latest generation of flow batteries being researched at Purdue University. In this scheme, no electric charging stations, just regular filling stations with at least one pump modified to pump electrolyte/reagent, and an extra hose for discharging the spent electrolyte/reagent tank. Charging would most likely be done off-site from the refueling stations, transported there by a tanker truck. Lots easier to direct a whole lot of power in a dedicated facility like that, than attempt fast charging stations for Li+ batteries.

The battery that I saw was like a flexible foil. On some of the tests, they actually punctured the foil, as well as cut pieces off, with very little effect on the output... of course the storage capacity was reduced.

How it was manufacturer was almost like tape on a roll.

As far as on my earlier post of the battery shorting out where some type of oxide building up and passing through the insulation barrier and shorting out (in a big way) on a Li-Ion battery I believe is called palladium titrate... or palladium titration???

Oh wait!,... maybe that was just a dream.

Oh, you want Seconds,.. sure you can have seconds,... I got plenty....

tonight I'll post some stuff on latest LI battery tech involving polymers real dreamy stuff

Cool,... I like innovation... it puts me to sleep.

People would like the idea a lot more. Pour some fluid in and let the old fluid go out. No nasty wires or the risk of getting electrocuted!

I find it amazing how scared people are when it comes to electricity. The ones I find are the most scared are plumbers. They typically hate working with electricity. Then again, one of the things I dislike working on the most is plumbing! You see, we rarely have leaking electrons in home wiring, but the number of times I have a leaking pipe! or a toilet that keeps running! or a dripping hose bib!!!!

Of course, the reagents have been worked out to be environmentally benign, and I am sure the connections will be far better than the kind of crap residential customers are used to. There are zero-drip quick connect/disconnect fittings available, and these might be mandatory, although I do not recall any gas station that never ever had gasoline spilled all over the ground.

As poorly educated as people are in general, I would hate to have to try to explain to the potential buyer how this flow battery technology works. Something to the effect of "You put in fluid A, and remove fluid B at the station, and magically the wheels go 'round."

"although I do not recall any gas station that never ever had gasoline spilled all over the ground."

Then you need to see me when I am fulling up my 97 Ford Super Duty flatbed truck. The idiots who built the aftermarket flatbed kit for it made it so that the fuel tank filler lines run slightly uphill before going down to the tank.

Unless I bring a 6 x 6 wood block with and park with the rear left inner rear tire up on it and fill at the absolute minimal nozzle dispensing rate (1/2 first locking notch) it drools fuel all over when filling either tank.

Without notching the either or both the flatbed and truck frame and redesigning the tank connection fittings there is no way to reroute the filler lines to be down rather than up from the fuel cap assy.

Stupid sloppy poorly thought out design and 100's of thousands of them were made that way.

Darn it, brother, are you sure you didn't install that upside down? ROFLMAO!!

That's what it feels like.

I've probably had a dozen people see me do that filling procedure and then tell me they either had one or more trucks with the same stupid flatbed conversion design or they knew one or more others who did.

Probably why I got a 15 year old, at the time, Ford Super duty (F450 - F550) equivalent dually truck in good shape that only had <130K miles for $1400 when Blue book said it was worth on the high side of $8K at the time.

Everyone who put fuel in it more than once hated it.

I've been seriously considering doing a propane conversion on it just for that reason. I've got a pair of 52 gallon saddle tanks that would fit perfect under the flatbed too!

Unfortunately for the 1000 - 2000 largely seasonal miles it sees a year I just haven't had the motivations.

Here in LA, one of the largest aftermarket bed conversion companies is also one of the worst ones. I've used them once on a contractor bed for a Ford F350 dually. It was a cool design - it was made to look like a stepside with all sorts of storage compartments.

Horrible hinges (worst in the business), bad welds, poor design and of course the shortest lasting. My contractor clients would allow me to order any of the other utility box companies, except for them.

When I read about your fuel line problem, it doesn't surprise me.

Though ... if you had an EV truck instead of your Ford SD, then the only thing you'd have a problem with would be getting those electrons to go up the wire vs gravity pushing them back down.

Time to return to FULL SERVICE filling stations where there are 4 workers that swarm your vehicle, clean your windows, check the fluids, check tire pressure, fill the fuel / electrolyte and and give you directions.

It's a great way to employ all the millennials that cry about low paying jobs.

Fund their wages with higher electrolyte prices!?!

Are you sure the mighty could stoop so low as to degrade themselves with such manual labors?

And check under the hood with a razor blade towards the fan belt?!

Are you imparting some nefarious intentions on the part of service attendants? Who said there would be a fan belt, or even a "hood" for that matter if the car is electric, and running on flow battery?

ess inc iron flow battery (low energy density)

Purdue flow battery start up needs people power and a great intiative

Considerable progress exists, and will continue.

Haha! Imagine the Tesla salesperson trying to explain it. "There's this special Tesla fluid that Elon created just for you! It takes your old used up battery and makes it new, just like magic! And the fluid isn't electrical, so you don't have to worry about being electrocuted! And it won't catch on fire like gasoline either! All I need is your signature here and a $5000 check to hold your spot. Your new Model 32 will be built as the factory ramps up production. You're lucky, because by the time your car is built, the technology will be mature (in other words old and outdated)."

The infrastructure isn't where it should be at. Except maybe in California... then you have the acceptance issue...

Of a false impression of the owners.

You took the bait, just as I knew you would. You are presidential in your belief that whatever spews forth from your mouth is gospel.

Cherry picking season is next month. I won't be bothering to respond to your drivel, except to say that I do not converse with children, especially spoiled, arrogant ones!

Yeah, so you say. The Northwest Passage was once considered a myth. They even widened the Panama canal to handle larger ships because nobody could reliably sail the Arctic Ocean.

09 August 2013

09 August 2016

The Nordic Orion has already made a delivery by this route and a Chinese company plans to regularly use this path.

I would say I don't respond to children... but the difference between you and me is, I have the intelligence to know I already did.

You should think about taking some time off and reflect and not troll anonymously when you do.

Here is some support regarding Liberalism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj9qvBwOeMA

and on the technical side:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXxHfb66ZgM Professor Ivar Giaever of Norway,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YMttEhtgpk&t=482s Professor Willie Soon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrQxidb4xSQ The weatherman, John Coleman, history

facts are useless when arguing with a closed mind.that's been proven on this site for years. feelings and facts don't ride the same bus.

I am afraid you are correct.

The closed mind scenario includes the UN, EU, the European leaders like Merkel, Macron as well as former Potus Obama, Michael Mann, Al Gore, and the many followers.

Come to think of it, the closed mindedness is more a trait of the small believers who trust the media that is also to be listed above. The big guys have an agenda and know what they are doing. I just read something Al Gore might have said: 'I don't usually lie about the climate, but when I do I get paid hundreds of millions.'

Al is on record claiming at the rate of decline he was seeing "all the sea ice would be gone by 2015." the only Ice Al needs to worry about is in his Koolaid It never disappeared!

Wait one second! Don't dis our good friend and fellow scientist Al Gore. You know, he invented the internet!

I always like listening to Dennis Prager. Already watched that video of his a while back. Know thy opponent's/preys weaknesses so to speak. (Not like they ever do any counter intelligence work, obviously and fortunately.)

Scott Adams (Dilbert creator) is this last few weeks primary interest. Professional persuasive speaker and pretty much lays out his view of reality with surprising accuracy on the major points too. Also he's pretty insightful into how President Trump actually thinks and handles things.

I say nothing.

I am simply calling attention to how the political views and valid scientific processes are now largely refuting the scope and range of the former AGW/CC claims thus revealing their far more likely real agenda that was in play.

As for real climate change a few less common upper or lower range limit deviations do not prove a trend. As some who supposedly has a strong background in statistical analysis you of all people should know damn well how that works.

1, 2 - 3 or even 5 higher/lower deviation in a 30 - 50 year time frame does not necessarily prove a hard trend/average change. 20 - 30+ do. Especially so if past longer term data suggests such peaking/lows anomalies are to be expected.

BTW, The NW passage has been open many times since it was first proven to exist in the mid 1800's but it has never proven long term seasonal reliability.

Northwest passage history

Then there's the fact that not all climate shifts everywhere every time are all negative to all things either, as certain political views want everyone believe, just as this year's eye opening revelations of the mass bias the MSM and certain liberal sects put on everything they do not agree with them and their agendas matter how false and or absurd their reasoning to justify themselves is.

If a liberal global alarmist is uptight about something the odds are it's probably not real or not anything remotely close to what they're claiming it is.

Liberalism is a mental illness. go easy on this afflicted one

It's a nearly incurable disease and if the carrier can't be effectively cured they need to be put down. Inoculation attempts on the past did not work so it''s time to get out the gun and put a bullet in the carrier.

It just good stewardship practices for the betterment of the whole so don't be afraid to pull the trigger. It's for the good everyone who has not been affected, rather like dealing with a rabid animal.

they love each other

I know that as I've been in love

Yea, It's rather like being around my Ex at the end. The desperation driven absurdity to try and win a game that is ultimately self defeating for whichever side ever goes to using absurdity and false claims is just too fun to ignore.

It makes me feel like President Trump going against the liberal agenda and MSM (CNN especially.) The wilder and more idiotic they go the faster and deeper their self defeat sets in.

The fact he has to troll, with the deliberately admitted intent to try and pull me in with things he knows damn well that have been shot to bits, pretty well defines that at this point. Negative self defeating attention is still attention when you get it from who you wanted it from.

Alright boys, ding, ding, ding. End of round #23. Go to your corners, and let the cut men go to work.

In the meantime, how about some mood music:

After that, maybe we can find whirled peace. Hugs all around?

I always thought this was more of a love-hate-love relationship. Born amidst the chaotic ebb and flow of a once tiny engineering forum CR4, it later became a full-on battle of twits, with occasional glimpses of bromance here in the largest engineering forum in the world: CR4.

I love everyone equally, so I hope the love just keeps flowing, with the milk of human kindness overflowing, and it looks like it's gonna' rain?

and it looks like its gonna' rain?

ahhhh. that's not rain your feeling... , but your thoughts were nice.

bad monkey!!!

Some would think you're paying me a compliment... so on their behalf, I thank you.

I think you read way more into what I said than was there because I can't follow half of what you just said in how it could relate to what I was aiming at.

Personally I have no issues with death threats or absurd claims and accusations that are relevant impossible to be prove or correlate to being anything a factual confirmation about a person.

If anything, I would dare say it's one of the self proving benchmarks of low wit trolling tactics that are on a similar level with making blatantly weak claims then giving zero supporting evidence to them when called out for validation and most everyone here knows damn well who tends to score extremely high on that tactic.

Same with claiming that their detractor did something, when it's obvious they themselves are who did it, or just playing stupid so as to not have to admit the are wrong or shot themself in the foot with their own reasoning or actions.

So if you think I got the sense got knocked out of me I am not following the observation in the least bit. I know his low wit trolling game and I have no issue with calling him out on it.

It's a bit of a sport for me at this point. Kinda like playing checkers with a 5 year old. I don't do it for the challenge but rather to see what absurd moves he's going to come up with this time that will just undermine his own stand on whatever largely debunked claims he comes up with.

Well all right.

That's good enough for me.

I guess the real news and the fake news of recent days have me rolling my eyes so much that I just fell over when I read what you said.

"Kinda like playing checkers with a 5 year old."

Yea, it's kinda like making a general, innocuous comment and then watching some self-absorbed idiot jump all over it.

I know you can't resist proving your imagined superior powers of intellect, again, so I'm signing off here, blubber away, both of you.

Bye!

that was an insult!....to the 5 year old

Dang, one short of Troll bingo!

Still hitting parts of 4 out of 5 in only three sentences! Not bad.

"1: You make a claim on a topic you know will likely get picked up and called out for being false(or the reverse of reality) now that new information disproves it.

3: You double down and accuse/harass the person or persons who called you out by insulting them with nothing of value and or while insisting they provide counter proof to your absurdity, which you will ignore anyway even if it came from your own sources or even your own self.

4: You attempt to confound and infuriate by never ever providing any shred of valid support for your initial or any following claims/accusations of any kind.

5: You proudly strut (claim to walk) away despite looking like an ignorant ass, once again, feeling that with that action it will somehow diminish their win while it, in fact, does not. You just look even more petty and stupid for your own actions."

so I'm signing off here, blubber away, both of you.

Bye!

His statements like that, like some of his sources... its turns out to be false.. Lyn will be back,... he always does. just look at his history...

He brings it on himself, then cries he's being bullied. such a drama queen...

And if you need to find him,... follow the trail he leaves on the threads... he pollutes and runs.

lyns ROI on his posts used to be pretty good,... but its in the red since November 8th, 2016.

Fits the rules of liberal trolling pretty well. The play book has been deciphered and it reads at a 2nd grade level!

Bait, falsely accuse, double down, deny/whine, strut away despite having lost more to yourself than your opponent, repeat.

If you know the formula it makes CNN and most any other liberal news media or agendas look like a badly rehearsed comedy routines!

Dang near makes a guy want to get a 'comb over swish' hairdo and a Twitter account just for the giggles!

Crap,... when he left,... I think he forgot his lip gloss, cuz its not mine...

Someone appears to have raised their voice rather boldly, LOL.

At this point in the game I'm calling it as I see it which is that trolls are cowards and will never defend their actions or claims because they know they have nothing but their taunting and harassing then gleefully running away when someone takes a legitimate swing a them.

Every watch the newer YouTUbe videos of the liberal idiot protestors and antifa goons?

Talk all big while taunting and harassing anyone they can find, yet despite being dressed for battle, get beat down hard by pretty much anyone who steps up only to end with them running away crying foul for what they started and asked for.

That's their game and they got nothing else and both sides know it now.

at the minimum, the continuation of this stream of this thread should be directed to the break room.

Don't you mean "all of you?"

Hi Lyn,

Glad to see you're back.

You make a good point. Vehicles are for transportation - except here in So Cal, where it's a status symbol. It's been over 100 degrees here much of this summer and there are many places where your cell phone doesn't work and you'd have to walk long distances to get help. Or, as you mention in a cold climate, it can also be deadly.

if weather is actually a feared consideration for some they probably shouldn't venture out from the comfort and safety of the nursing home in the first place.

I trust my old Chevy any day in a West Texas blizzard, or carrying one home from DQ.

Economically speaking.... There was some research a while back, if it was an advantage where people that traded in their gas guzzling SUV for a smaller, more economical to save money.

It turned out that one was economically farther ahead to keep that gas guzzler.

Found it,... Consumer Reports. And it would be a decision of conscience more than frugality. And it would definitely would not make economical sense for an electric vehicle.

Or, you keep the Explorer for weekend family trips and you buy a Corolla for your 50 mile (each way) commute. At $16,500 + tax and license, the Corolla payments are low and you save gas. On top of that, you preserve your Explorer and driving less will keep maintenance and repair costs down.

True,...

Also in the first place, you have to buy what you can afford to meet you needs

I normally buy what I want,... and it's pretty modest and reasonable... except when I bought a chev 2500 HD truck for my business, you know the one with the big gas engine (the diesel was 6-8 weeks out for delivery and an extra $3500.00) But even then with the gas motor, I still got about 12 MPG whether it was carrying a load or not.

12 MPG sounds normal for that size truck with the big V8. 6.0 or 6.2?

I bet they love you on Earth Day!