Would You Buy a Tesla?

I've heard that there are quality issues with the Tesla. My feeling is that a true luxury car shouldn't have quality issues. But, when considering a Range Rover, finding one without quality issues is a rarity, so maybe all that leather, wood and power compensate for the problems the car has. And I can't forget the image!!!

I don't know about quality issues, but I have read that some people have had bad experiences with the dealers when reporting problems.

I'm a huge fan of tech. Elon is a hero on a few levels. but I would not buy any of his cars.as far as range is concerned: If your daily commute is under 100 miles and that's all you want from your car the range isn't an issue but most people don't want limits on the "when and where" they can use their car, they expect to hop in and just go. an electric car requires planning and forethought. most busy people just don't want to plan around charging.

for me this is a deal breaker. you don't ever really own the car 100% Tesla can and will shut your car off when they want to disable the car, even if you beg them not to. If your car is involved in an accident and the insurance company "totals" your car Tesla types a few over air commands and the electronics lock you out forever!

If you're a whiz with CAN bus commands you still have something with salvage value otherwise your car is 100% junk.

Also, whenever you read about a Tesla crashing, Tesla quickly defends themselves by reporting your accelerator position along with your brake position and speed at the time. Tesla tracks YOUR EVERY MOVE and records it. I'm a Constitutionalist so I have a big problem with that.

I still like EVs but NOT Tesla at any price.

That is basically why I wouldn't although battery catastrophic failure is another one.

It is just not ever going to be as safe as liquid transportable fuel, and it has already been proven that CO2 with water and electricity can be recycled once again to fuel.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

I hated to see this thread turn political. We can surely discuss the issues of transportation in a calm, discerning manner, and not let our friends needle us, or throw us all off track.

I think you put into words, what a lot of us feel and think.

I'll add something about the 100 mile commute. I drive a little over 90 miles round trip - 5 days a week. Earlier this year, we had a very bad rain storm and to top it off, it was on a Friday. After 5 hours on the road, I was still 25 miles away and stopped for dinner. Three hours later I got home. I doubt the Tesla would've made it.

Well, OK then, you could have been charging up the Tesla during a seven-course dinner at the diner: salad, appetizer, main course, pie, ice cream, pie, pie (just an example where everyone likes pie).

Heck, I just found out yesterday that Lubbock Power & Light now allows net metering for those customers that want to have solar panels (or Tesla solar shingles).

The fee structure is unfortunately set up in a way to ensure that no LP&L customer ever really makes any money from the sales of electricity (at least not for now).

I see it this way: Solar power is great for load following during the day time here, due to diurnal, quotidian power demand. Wind power seems to be a stronger player here in the evening hours when demand curve is lower. I think LP&L (and others) should consider investing in molten silicon energy storage (TPV power out) since that form of energy storage has an energy density that far exceeds electrochemistry, and probably even exceeds bulk liquid fuel, and energy coupling output efficiency is very high indeed, and energy storage times can exceed 24 hours.

There still is no way that residential customers will reap any windfall profit from any such scheme, and this prolongs the pay back for such systems beyond the life expectancy of the old customer (like me). Young ones can't afford it.

I remember that night very well. I ate dinner at Two Guys From Italy - Italian food. No salad - I don't eat salad. No appetizer. No pie. No ice cream. My guess is that I was there about an hour - decompressing from the terrible commute!

Charging an electric car that's parked in the restaurant parking lot wouldn't have happened. They (and every restaurant I can think of here in So Cal) don't have any facilities for charging an electric car. And with the sue happy people here, the liability is too great to allow someone to run an extension cord to the parking lot.

When the infrastructure is there, I may buy an electric car. Until then, I'll keep my fossil fuel burning cars.

Elon has admitted that the need for high speed DC charging exists in metro areas so Tesla has included expansion of such in their plans. level 2 chargers all over the place just wont cut it, too time consuming

I heard about that. It's going to be expensive and it could become a liability issue. He'll need to have extra safety features, because there are idiots out there who'll find a way to get shocked - and maybe killed.

In a word: NO! No further explanation is needed or warranted.

Absolutely! In fact I have a reservation for a new Model 3. Now my situation is not the norm: we are retired and rarely drive over 50 miles/day. And I have experience: an old VW that I converted to electric. It only has 25 miles range (lead-acid batteries), but gets me around the suburb for errands. I'm conscious of range and have instrumentation to track it. It's no different than monitoring the petrol gauge.

Teslas can charge from ordinary 120 or 240 or faster with a "home power port." My former employer has charging stations in their parking garage, and I see them in other parking garages more and more.

We have a leased ICE too, but will terminate it when the Model 3 comes, and rent a car if we need to make a long trip.

I just don't trust Tesla, their cars, or the technology (i.e. lithium batteries that constitute me riding on a fire bomb).

If it suits you, and your lifestyle, and you want it, then you should have it.

Just like that hot rod you have.

Because it is a very cool ride, and I remember some things very well, even at my advanced age.

You have kindly posted other pics of it and it is a very clean hot rod.

If the Tesla makes a car guy like you happy, you should have it!

That is a good post Lyn! Keep up the good work!

I had a EV for a few years. One of the first mass produced ones at that! A 1984 Ford ELectrica which was built on a common Ford Escort hatchback body.

For short runaround stuff it was fine. The 16 6 volt 220 Ah golf cart batteries did okay for power and range. At highway speeds of ~ 55 - 60 MPH it was good for about 15 - 20 miles which made it unreliable for going to town or anything beyond that range limit. Plus the slow 12 - 16 hour typical recharge time was poor.

As far as I'm concerned about EV's now, until they come out with a 3/4 full size pickup unit that can pull 12,000 # at interstate speeds for at least 300 mile between charges and be recharged in under 20 minutes plus come with a price tag and cost of operation no higher than that of a gas or diesel equivalent I have no real interest in one.

Now to be fair, I have considered converting an old 4 wheeler I have, that has a bad engine, to electric drive to use for run around the farm stuff.

No way. Beyond THE COST issues; although I would seriously consider a Hybrid. A purely electric vehicle scares for range anxiety reasons.

I believe electric vehicles have certain benefits (for my personal situation) but not for everyone.

Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate it.

Recent thread on some poor service.....

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/114450/The-Beginning-of-the-End-of-Tesla

I started to read all the comments here but quit when it started to degrade...

To answer your questions:

Yes I WILL buy an EV someday...not yet but someday. I believe that the problems will be solved and the prices will come down as competition increases.

I will have both gas powered and EV, to solve the longer distance problems, if they still exist when I do buy one. This is no different than what I have today. Multiple vehicles for different purposes.

The big GMC gets maybe 15 MPG (down hill with a tail wind) but it can haul 2 tons of "stuff" with no problems, and it plows snow in the winter.

The Prius takes us on all the little trips to get what I forgot the first time at Home Depot, and the returns of the stuff I didn't need. It also provides good summer mileage. I don't drive it in the winter.

The Jeep is the winter vehicle, with 4 studded snows and go anywhere attitude. I do plan to trade it for a Rav4 Hybrid in the near future.

(I also have a 2003 Toyota Highlander with 246K on it....it's a spare beater but I'm going to sell it soon)

Yeas I know not everyone can afford multiple vehicles but not everyone can own an EV either. Saving the environment a little at a time is better than doing nothing at all.

Be careful how you go about "saving" the environment. I am not sure Mother Nature wants or needs our help saving herself. She has been around such a very long time now, and we are but mere upstarts, overestimating our importance and durability almost constantly.

Last time I checked, all the tech, batteries, plastic, and what-not that goes into an EV along with somewhat inefficient energy supply chain in the form of electrons, results in a net increase in carbon footprint (yes, renewable also has a large carbon track left in the shorts), so everyone should really, really, really be careful what you wish for, unless you will actually receive it and be so sad.

Well, if they want to save the L.A., California environment, putting the fuel combustion for all the electric power elsewhere would help alleviate local smog.

That is about the only thing it does - - moves the issue somewhere else. Not saying that is necessarily a bad thing, just think of the greenhouses that could be supplied with CO2 and waste heat. That represents a fleet of truckloads of tomatoes, and more.

That is about the only thing it does - - moves the issue somewhere else.

That's true... but so does sniffing their own farts. It accomplishes nothing but shows the hypocrisy.

OMG ROFLMAO! Somebody is really revved up today!

Yup, still revved up from last week with hypocrites like this operations director I talked about on post #51.

I'm glad you see the humor in that... if that is what humor is. Its funny how that works out

OK, they are pretty smart fellers. (you can change the first letters around to suit your previous comment). LOL

Why doesn't Mr.Musk just put money into converting CO2 back to methanol fuel for car racing, or other liquid transportable fuels? Not as flashy? I beg to differ. Chemistry is at least as sexy as electric vehicles, and is even a major part of electric vehicles.

Musk is spending the money where others aren't,... I can complain about it,... but I still glad he's doing it. And there appears to be a market out there, though an apprehensive market at that.

That's the whole problem I have had with "liberal environmentalism ' right from the start. The blatant hypocrisy and utter lack of valid confirmable foundations it got built on.

That which has proven itself to be good and worth the investment and work never got credit while the BS based nonsense got ramped up higher and higher for nothing but self patting on the back feel goods.

That's rather how I look at it. The vast majority of the air pollution issue claims come from only a handful of locations that have most of their problems more attributable to geographic and uniquely and often compounded localized phenomenon than the legitimacy or lack thereof of their other claims and reasonings for it would suggest.

People who live in a toilet with the lid closed seem to feel that everyone else must to when in fact the vast majority have the total opposite lifestyle and problems.

Take 1960 - 80's LA and stick it out her in the prairie and I guarantee you smog would never been an issue. It's too damn windy here to stay put long enough to add up to anything!

From an old saying,... 'the solution to pollution is dolution'

In places you wouldn't think would be a problem, like Seattle, there's a big smog issue Seattle smog problem. The inversion layer keeps the smog in. Same as Phoenix. Phoenix air pollution - 5th worse in nation

Hey! If you had the ability to use power that's being generated in another place - some place where the pollution won't affect you - wouldn't you approve it?

Also, the smog in LA has greatly decreased since I moved here in the late 80's. Though I wouldn't want to live anywhere east at the base of the San Gabriel's. Air quality there isn't good, but it's much better than it was 30 years ago.

I'd be willing to bet that if a "dust to dust" analysis was run, the ICE would be "better" for the environment than an EV, or at least no worse.

It would be interesting to do a study on the total pollution both vehicles produce. To be thorough, one would need to include the pollution generated in the production and delivery, the pollution generated in the design of the car and the factory. Also, the pollution generated in the production of the fuel (electricity or gas). And finally, the pollution to scrap the vehicle when it's ready for the junk yard.

Well, if this had happened say about 1980, I'd be in one now. I love tech, and in 1980 had not yet realized that if you want high tech, you wait at least 10 years after it becomes an accepted technology, or you'll pay many times too much for it. (want to see my $1000 CD player or $900 Beta recorder from the early 1980's, or my $200 scientific calculator from 1973? - inflation correct those figures and see how much they really cost)

That, and then I was a car freak. I'd have at least 300K more for retirement (figuring in growth from interest) if I had not had to try out the latest and greatest new car. Traded my current one in at most every 2 years, sometimes only in 1 year. I guess my worst move was the one that I only had for 8 months. The drag strip results for the Teslas alone would have had me in one back then.

The mileage range issue is not a problem with my traveling as I don't. Just travel around the general location where I live.

For me, I'm more leery about jumping on a band wagon because at times it either turns out to be no where close to what it was marketed as, or just a fad.

Even with that said, the technology such as this, has to be pushed, I'm just happy there are those that are willing to finance it under what I would consider that they believe they are having an immediate effect.

And for that, I thank them.

A lot of people want to be on the cutting edge of technology. Yes, I remember when the Betamax came out. Ditto for the CD player - and the CD's weren't cheap either!

Have already put my money down on a model 3. I had it down on an X but when the wife saw the final price she had second thoughts. Tesla was very accommodating and allowed us to transfer our reservation to the model 3.

Range anxiety? Well if you live in a heavily developed area where there are gas stations every block I can see how you would balk at having to actually pay attention to your fuel level like those of us who have lived in under developed areas do as a matter of course.

So no, why have range anxiety? I drive to work, my daughters house, shopping, home. If I can exhaust a 300 mile range in one week it would be unusual. Plus, I can plug it in at the house every night just like my cell phone. Fully charged by morning. No problems. If I am out, the car will plan its route based on its mileage so that we are at a supercharger or a business that has charging capacity. Several Hotel chains have installed superchargers for their guests to use. For a quick spot charge, 20 minutes on a supercharger gives 200 miles range. Just have lunch and your good too go. So other than having to adjust thinking a little, no reason to worry about it unless you live out west where you have to worry about running out of gas anyway so….

The most important thing in the equation is this.

ME.

I am looking to have a very different ownership experience. If this is not what you are up for, then please, by all means, stay in your comfort zone and do what you have always done and get what you have always got. Don’t dare challenge yourself or push the envelope because ya know, boat rockers never change the world. Innovators don’t move us forward to a better tomorrow and lets face it, engineers do not have realistic expectations or a good grasp on what really works so who would ever trust one of those to build anything.

And in Elon's own hand writing,.... nice.

Let us know how it works out 2-3 years from now. Not being snippy, but just rather getting practical information from a user and not slighted media.

The Model 3's start around $35K. The Bolt starts at $37,500.

If Tesla can pull it off and if the car is better than the Bolt, they'll have a winner. They'll also have to figure out how to mass produce them, keep quality from falling, set up a distribution network to move the product (in the numbers they have planned) and set up a service network. Recalls are a gimme in this day and age, so they're going to need a way to conveniently do the repairs.

That's all a tall order, but Elon is goal oriented, so I wouldn't bet against it. Though I also won't bet with him (I won't buy the stock).

OK, back to the original question, and from an engineering perspective. Not sure what MRSP is but if the Tesla was the same price as the petrol car I’d buy the Tesla. I won’t buy a Tesla tomorrow because it’s too expensive.

I bought a cheap Citroen Berlingo E100 van off eBay a few years ago. Factory-built electric bought as a commuter vehicle (4 miles to my office) and city runabout. If you think you'd have range anxiety in a Tesla try something with 10% of the range.

It was perfect for my short through-city commute. As I crawled through traffic it used very little energy. I started using it for more and more runabout trips to supermarkets, picking up my son, usual family stuff. It was absurdly cheap to run, and low insurance cost. I saved directly on petrol costs and because I wasn’t using my Saab so much the cost of insurance on that fell too.

With electric vehicles you get used to plugging them in when you stop. At home I plugged the car in when I arrived, unplugged when I left. Office? Plug in. Supermarket? Plug in. Instead of the single big hit of filling of fuel tank you get lots of smaller fill-ups. Started taking it to my mum’s house (30 miles away, beyond the theoretical round-trip range), plug in when I get there, only waiting 20 minutes but it’s a few miles more, take mum to the supermarket watching the needle go down dramatically as I climb the mountain to the next valley then creep up significantly as I roll down the other side. Supermarket? Plug in. Back to mum’s, plug in while we have a cup of tea. Drive home using a net of zero power for the first 15 miles because it’s mostly downhill and arrive home still with 50% in the battery. Oh! and this was with a 240v 13 amp charger (no laughing at the back please) not the hardcore power suckers on the Tesla than can stuff 150 miles into your tank in the 20 minutes it takes you to grab a Starbucks and use the restroom.

In terms of time it took out of my life recharging I spent /less/ time recharging the Blingo than I did my Saab. Because I just plugged it in at places I was going anyway. Interesting.

Couldn’t get it serviced though. Nowhere in my town could do it and when it suffered a minor battery problem which was beyond my tools to fix I would have had to send it on a low loader 200 miles to London.

So I sold it “spares or repair” on eBay for more than I paid for it. I miss it.

Would I get a Tesla S if it was cheaper? Yes. It’s a lovely piece of automotive engineering. If you’ve never driven an electric the torque is fantastic. Plus the weight is lower so the handling is better. The Tesla S is a family saloon that can take off faster than most supercars. If you like performance cars you’ll have a lot of fun with it. But I’m not paying 100 Grand for one.

Can you imagine being in a "high-speed" (or even a low-speed) chase in one of those.

Bystander #1: "What is going on"?

Bystander #2: " The van driven by the suspect seems to be going even slower now, and the police passed him, and went around the block for another try at stopping them. They may have hacked the van with ever-readies, because I though I saw a pink bunny driving. It just goes on and on....on and on."

Just when police were thinking about letting this one go (they already had bank robber quota for that week), the van slowly ground to a halt in the pool lane on the interstate. They had to arrest the driver before the mob of angry office workers could yank him out of the car and whip him with their cell phone chargers and/or earbud leads (so yesterday when they have wireless ones for that now).

Rather like my old EV was. Went good until the batteries hit the drain down tipping point.

After that it was a pretty fast wind down to the end of the spring so to speak.

The only saving grace was that with doing high discharge on a lead acid battery set if it sat for 10 minutes it picked up a good mile of slow driving range. Then 3/4 of mile, then 1/2 and so on.

It might take an hour or more to get the last 2 - 3 miles but it got home.

An hour to go 2-3 miles? That's a good rush hour time here in LA!

This morning, my better half called me to let me know the traffic on the 5! We're the last town in LA county, so traffic isn't too bad until we get to the base of the hill (going toward the San Fernando Valley). Today, it started one exit past where we get on.

At low speeds it could go pretty far for 1984 technology. 50 - 70 miles on short trip low speed running around the farm and local area with it.

Unfortunately I don't like low speed driving unless it was absolutely necessary.

My feeling back then ws if they had come out with a battery that had 10X the power density in the same package as the old LA batteries took up and then the Lithium stuff came out.

My first thought was, WOW! EV tech is viable now. Nope. They cut the battery sizes down to 1/3 the volume while piling on the superfluous electrical loads and came out with EV's that gained at best 50% more distance (150% of dismal is just dismal and a half) which was still crap for anything but better short range driving.

Thanks for your feedback. Real life use of an EV!

Some facts: The Tesla Model S starts at $68K. It weighs 4469 lbs! Has 382 hp. Comes with a 4 year/50K warranty and 8 year/unlimited mile powertrain warranty. If you want a color other than Black, then pony up another $1,000! Leather seats? $3,200 to $3,300 extra. Sunroof = $2,000. Self driving capability = $10,000! So, one with Premium, Self Driving and some other goodies = $99,000!

Compared to one of my favorite cars, the Jaguar XJ R-Sport. Loaded with a 1,300 watt Meridian stereo system (it's an incredible system), the nicest leather seats, heated everything, a little bigger with a longer wheelbase, less weight 3,891 lbs and 340 hp Supercharged V-6. And a 5 year/ 60,000 mile warranty and free maintenance during that time! And all for $91,965, about $7K less!

Oh yeah, one more thing. A 2014 Model S 60 is set to go thru auction and the estimate is $38.8K About $6K more than a 2014 XJ should fetch. And we all know how bad Jaguars depreciate, so the Tesla is in the same boat.

I just spoke to a client who has a 2005 Prius. They were a little over 150K mi and the battery went out - dash lit like a Christmas Tree.

They told me the cost to buy a refurbished battery was only $1,000. They are still having problems with the battery.

I was driving to work this morning and I thought about range anxiety. I remember too many times I've tried to stretch the miles I could drive with the needled on (or below) E.

In a "regular" car, if you run out of gas, you only need to find a gas can and a gas station - or have AAA come drop some gas to you.

In an EV, you can't call AAA ... well, I guess you can, but what can they do? Tow it, right! Or maybe the general public thinks that they can bring some Tesla electricity (you know, in one of those starter boxes).

So I just thought about something funny. Can you imagine someone calling AAA and asking them for some electricity for your Tesla. "Hello, my AAA account number is 123456 and I've been a member for 37 years. I broke down on the Southbound 405 just north of the 101 and I'm in lane 3. My plate number is Y GAS. I need some electricity quickly!!! And just to make sure we're on the same page, please make sure the driver sends the kind that works in a Tesla"

I couldn't want to push it up the hill to Mulholland

In a word: NO

Why not? It doesn't sound or drive like my 5.7 Hemi powered Grand Cherokee

Sorry to here that... Bring that Grand Cherokee over of yours, and I'll get that fixed... I'll have it purring like a kitten in no time.

We were driving a Ford rental up route 80 from Frisco to the Tahoe area. It was cold (heat on), raining (wipers on), lots of traffic (stop and go) and there is a long (about 40 mile) hill going up into the mountains. Traffic was crawling along until we caught a Tesla that was barely moving. After it pulled over with emergency flashers on (they still worked) we sped up and were relieved we had not bought one of those.

The feeling is like passing a sign that says 70 miles till next gas station and the last gas station sign was maybe 15 miles back you're needle is approaching E.

The heater takes a lot of electricity to run. This would be my concern - when it rains out here, traffic stops and our rain is typically cold, so heat is nice. Not to mention, you need to run the defrost to keep the windows clear = running the a/c compressor. All together, getting stuck in a five hour commute home on a rainy day = waiting for the Tesla roadside assistance to come by and give me a gallon of electricity, so I can get to the next supercharger station - Tesla's get 82 mpge, right?

They can't make the electric car battery too safe either... otherwise it will really have an impact on action movies.

Seem Tesla is trying to put you in a Tesla...

Tesla just dropped their prices... This can begin to change ones thinking about Tesla...

Would sooner go buy an ancient Volvo and drive that around.

I knew someone who had one very similar to that, but not that rough! He called it the 'The toilet', for some reason, but being a older diesel with mild fuel pump rework it got upper 30's to low 40's fuel milage and wasn't bad too ride around in beyond being well worn inside and out.

Elon must be reading this thread and feels our concern!!

CR4 is hot sheets to technology.

At least no one reported that Tesla stole their skin or their husband's skin...

I would have to say not:

1. Too expensive

2. Hurricane Harvey

3. Hurricane Irma

While the argument can be made that there is no infrastructure to support EV's as compared to that available to fossil fuel powered vehicles, that same argument could have be made at the introduction of the IC powered vehicle.

That is true, but think about how the IC powered vehicles were accepted. I think most kept their horses (and wagons) and treated "cars" as a novelty.

They didn't need gas stations, because they used their horse/wagon as the main mode of transportation.

I agree with you completely.

I occasionally drive 1200 kms in a day, I cannot wait for a recharge.

I find that the "Plug in Hybrids are a better way to go right now".

Batteries and recharging still has a long way to go.

A recent newspaper test here showed that a modern diesel is the best way to go for around the first 50,000 miles, then the electric car "overtakes" the diesel.....

Taking production CO2 into account as well and not forgetting the poor unprotected children in Africa, picking up the chemicals for the batteries.....dreadful!!

The article is in German, but I can send a scanned copy to anyone supplying a PM with a private email address....

For me it was a major eye opener, showing that "clean and environmentally friendly" they are not!!

Then major questions about battery life and replacement costs....and and and and....

"Taking production CO2 into account as well and not forgetting the poor unprotected children in Africa, picking up the chemicals for the batteries.....dreadful!!"

What? Is lithium found just lying on the ground in Africa?

I don't know if it has to be brought to the surface first, but children are used, with no safety equipment/clothes of any sort, to get it "sorted".

When I have time I will reread the article to allow me to answer you better....OK?

Deal. Sounds about like the old Spanish gold mines near Santa Fe, NM. Forced child labor for those hard to reach places.

I'm curious why they say it's better to have a diesel for the first 50K miles, then the hybrid is better?

I would think it would be the other way, since a hybrid degrades (batteries become less efficient as they age) and a diesel just keeps on going.

They compared the whole manufacturing processes against each other and the electric cars are apparently not as good for the planet as many believe.

Calling them a "no emmision" transport is one big fat lie....

I will try to get around to re-reading the article soon.

Agreed! Producing all those batteries can't be good for our environment. Or as you've said, even getting the raw materials to make the batteries! And what happens when the batteries are no longer usable. Will they be recycled? Here's the short answer with today's technology: Why Lithium Ion batteries won't be recycled

Regarding propulsion, my take is that no emissions = no fossil fuels used to generate any energy the car uses.

Most of us are still tied to the grid, so charging an EV is using fossil fuels - indirectly.

If, you generated the electricity from wind, solar, hydro, geothermal, etc, then you could claim "no emission", but I doubt that many people are doing so.