Panama Canal...What If?

Oh Gawd!

What have you read about the Panama Canal's locks?

============

There was a "Peacemaker", no, "Plowshare" proposal for the

use of nukes to make a SEA LEVEL passage thru ?NIcaragua?? if I recall.

Use a search engine.

"Discus in not more than 500 worms."

Bird talk? ;-)

Well, if it did happen there would be a lot of surfing capitals that would suffer when Panama becomes the world HQ for surfing!

Yeh...but no but

I mean if a waterway was cut through......

You maroon, if a waterway was cut all the way across, South America would drift into the Pacific

Ah yes ..if I think about the rotation of the Earth I'd expect the Atlantic side to be higher, as the water tries to stay still it should pile up on the Atlantic seaboard.

Yeh ..If we think we have messed up the climate now.... Just think what we might do if we opened up that waterway???

Do you remember the difference in elevation? I have not found that info on google.

...and I bet you saved the table scraps to feed the mules..!

Long long long time ago it was. Continental drift has brought the North and South American continents together. The world didn't come to and end then.

Are you sure you are not looking for a way to reduce your foggy nights. Sure would reduce the temperature of the golf stream as the waters of the golf poured through.

Many years ago there was a proposal of a sealevel canal possibility, I believe through Costa Rica. But I think the Panama canal repatriation added too many questions.

Rich

Unless the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans are at different sea levels (???), where is the differnce in elevation needed to generate power?

This means that the water in the lakes has to be either pumped there or collected from othger sources, i.e. mountain streams or something. Otherwise where would the water come from for the ships to sail through in this man made canal?

I don't think the lakes are man made at all, they were there to start with.

The lake is replenished by the local rain forests. Because of atmospheric changes as a result of El Nino and La Nina, the necessary rains are of concern.

ONE of the things that happens is a very damaging intermix of species.

Discus in not more than 500 worms.

You must be a Dawn Patroller!!

S <- here's the one you dropped

iS THAT THE SAME AS A rOBIN? OOPS damn caps lock

"If all the lock gates were opened...what would be the global impact ???"

Not much for a short time period. If permanent it would have considerable impact on shipping.

"That would be one big wave to ride??? How big a hole would it rip through Central America...what would happen to sea levels?"

Not much more than a small tidal wave.

The high point of the canal is about 65 feet above mean sea level. No big flood from one ocean to the other.

14 Spillway Gates OnGatun Dam Spillway Are Key!

Lets say we increase the size and opened it up.

Warmer water from the gulf would flow through.

The additional warm water could fuel El Nino.

To replace the lost water more water will have to flow down (north sea) and up from the south.

possible effects.

Florida and other gulf states will experience a drop in temperature. Surfers will be smaller.

the weather in Europe and Africa will drop.

My biggest fear is El Nino and more droughts in SA & Australia.

Darwin's islands - Animals will evolve with temperature control.

(or birth control)

Is the water on the Pacific side the same height as the Atlantic side. Are there gravity or coreolis affects or currents that would cause one side to be higher than the other. If it was cut straight through without locks raising ships up to the lakes, which way would the water flow?

Yeh...you get my drift...

The sea level is higher on the Pacific side (I think it's that way round)...

I DO mean if the canal was cut straight through. (I forgot the up/down bit in the middle...hmm I've had that complaint before)

Del

Sea level always increases from east to west. That is why boats can coast when going eastward. in a kayak, one can coast from US to Europe on the down slope, but must paddle furiously when coming back. That is just one reason that many Americans are overweight, and many Swedes are in robust health. Americans are (unfairly) thought to be bad navigators, because they get lost at sea -- but really it has to do with getting pulled out to sea. In Europe, it is very hard to get far enough from shore to get lost.

That reminds me of this guy, years ago, that was trying to convince me that because of a birds internal navigation system that they could not fly across the equator. He said that they had to land and then walk or swim across so not to fall out of the sky.

I think he was trying to pull my leg, but he was such a moron otherwise that I never was quite sure.

If the canal was cut straight through, there would be no need for locks and shipping traffic through the canal would be faster. Travel between the Pacific and Antlantic Oceans would be shorter.

Dell, you've just found a way for shipping to save money...no wait, Panama would have toll gates at both entrances...darn it!

Difference in sea level, What about the curvature of the earth? How would that fit into it since it is about 50 miles across Panama at this point?

Hi Del,

You have been reading the newspapers again, haven't you? What part of the Darwin story was so boring that you went on and did a fact finding mission on Panama?

Anyway, I don't think anything serious would happen globally but it would on a smaller scale locally. I think the rushing water will carve the land away until the water speed drops significantly that it gently flows from one end to the other. By that time you have very little Panama left and created a new stream that has, as yet, no name. It will dramatically increase the flood plains of Gatun lake or , if it has not got flood planes, it will make them into flood planes. See here.

It might however cause a conflicting stream of warm water to disrupt the equatorial counter flows. This could have an effect on global weather but I am not sure, me only have small brain.

but I am not sure, me only have small brain .

Does it look like this....here?

That is a very interesting point about the temp. I am going to research a bit. But knee jerk response is that there really could be some significant weather manipulaton as a result of increasing/decreasing the amount of warm/cold water. I actually am very intrigued by this statement and it's implications. I see a thread beginning here.

cr3

Doesn't need many worms.

Basically you would drain a lake via two rivers.

Globally no large physical impact.

see #6 and #13...

I wouldn't bet on surfing.

I googled this:

Dear Cecil:

Would one ocean pour into the other if the locks on the Panama Canal were blown? If not, let's say a mile-deep trench were dug from coast to coast. Would there be flooding then, huh? --Eliot R., Los Angeles

Dear Eliot:

No, you mollusk. They don't have locks on the Panama Canal because one ocean is higher than the other, they have them because the land is higher in the middle--85 feet higher, to be exact. As I have explained in the past, the level of the sea is more or less uniform throughout the world, making the concept of "sea level" possible.

But that's not to say you wouldn't get any flow from one ocean to the other if somebody dug your "mile-deep trench" from coast to coast. Scientists studying the feasibility of a sea-level canal (not a mile deep, but deep enough) have found that the Pacific at Panama is about eight inches higher than the Atlantic on average due to currents and such. In addition, tidal variation on the Pacific side of Panama is much greater than on the Atlantic side--20 feet vs. 1 foot.

That means the Pacific would flow into the Atlantic through the sea-level canal, producing currents that could reach nearly 6 MPH. While that wouldn't cause flooding, it would definitely complicate navigation.

But that's the least of the problems a sea-level canal would present. It would also allow Pacific and Atlantic marine species to mingle, with unpredictable but probably bad consequences for the environment. Worse, constructing it would require either (1) tens of billions of dollars or (2) nuclear explosives. So don't expect it any time soon.

--CECIL ADAMS

CECIL ADAMS is obviously a fool, worse than that, an arrogant fool.

One only has to take a cursory look at the globe to realise that the American continent is a virtual block to any East west flow of water. There are plenty of precedents for sea level not being constant..one only needs to think of tides and the surges which occur down the East coast of Britain.

Del

On continuing to read past CECIL's fatuous 'molusc' insult he proceeds to explain how he is actually wrong... what an ass.

Del

Do you mean the "Eoore" type donkey ass or the American spelled version of a rectal sphincter?

Just curious

I doubt that even a 17 foot tidal difference over a canal (couple hundred feet wide and a couple hundred feet deep?) 77km long, probably with quite a few bends would allow any significant flow rates. The slope for "drainage" does not appear to be very great, say, 6m/77000m. It would appear to me the problem would be having enough flow to prevent silting and vegetation growing.

The last time I checked, ALL oceans of the world were connected. They are not isolated lakes at different elevations. The Pacific is connected to the Atlantic at both the northern and southern poles. The Atlantic connects to the Mediterranean through a natural canal. etc.

Perhaps an hydraulic engineer could do a sample calculation for such a canal design and calculate the actual flow rates.

In places like the Bay of Fundy where there actually is a tidal bore it is of no real consequence to shipping.

On the west coast of Canada there is the large Fraser River. As the tide goes up and down 10 or so feet the "inrush" of water from the ocean is a total disappointment. The river rises, then subsides. I think the same applies to the Thames in England.

The biological cross contamination is already occurring. An open channel would undoubtedly aggravate that.

I think EE's are out of their field of expertise and simply pontificating.

The last time I checked, ALL oceans of the world were connected.

Your point being?

Does that mean you don't believe in tides, or the sea level differential across panama or the surges in the North sea driven by Northerly winds on top of a high tide?

Unless water had zero ineria and zero viscosity the connectedness is pretty irrelevant. The Americas reach from about 55^o South up to 70^o odd degrees North. That's a pretty serious block to the natural currents which would flow around an uninterruped ocean.

Del

My point is, a small head of 3 meters over 77000 meters and a relatively narrow canal will not create significant flows. The friction loss in the channel I believe would be a dominant factor. (or .039 mm per meter, your desk is probably not that level!). The total head with flow restrictions are just not significant.

Fair enough....

(Maybe I can get some power of my desk top ? )

Cheers

Del

The best bet would be to build a dam/spillway near the western end and build multiple huge pipelines from the east end filling a lake behind the dam. Even so, the drop is 17' at best. Not a lot of energy for the effort depending on how long a dam and how many turbines. Take cost of maintenance into account and off the top of my head it gets real iffy. Hoover Dam has a 420' average drop, 17 turbines, and produces 2,080 megawatts. Compared to it, a Panama project seems like a joke.

Good morning Del.

I spent last evening reading about the history of the Panama canal!!!

de lessops wanted to dispence with lock gates in his original design for the Panama canal, but an English surveyor pointed out to him that there was a large tidal difference between the Atlantic and the Pacific side of the Panama isthmus?

This amounted to 16ft higher on the Atlantic side after his calculations at the time, now it has been calculated that the actual tidal difference is 17ft. This difference occurs for only 5 or 6 hours twice every day. If there were no lock gates there would be a massive tidal surge akin to the severn bore, only much higher.

Spencer.

I like this severn bore better

Not as high but way more fun.

Yes, you could drown yourself in pints there!!!

Spencer.

Good morning Del.

I spent last evening reading about the history of the Panama canal!!!

de lessops wanted to dispence with lock gates in his original design for the Panama canal, but an English surveyor pointed out to him that there was a large tidal difference between the Atlantic and the Pacific side of the Panama isthmus?

This amounted to 16ft higher on the Atlantic side after his calculations at the time, now it has been calculated that the actual tidal difference is 17ft. This difference occurs for only 5 or 6 hours twice every day. If there were no lock gates there would be a massive tidal surge akin to the severn bore, only much higher.

Spencer.

.... hmmm very interesting, Now if you could get some turbines in that canal, and utilize the potential energy involved in elevations between the two bodies of water, I'd think one could generate quite a bit of electricity! But, would doing so slow the rotation of the earth?

<But, would doing so slow the rotation of the earth? >

"Every action has an equal and opposite reaction."?

.. hmmm very interesting, Now if you could get some turbines in that canal, and utilize the potential energy involved in elevations between the two bodies of water, I'd think one could generate quite a bit of electricity!

Now that's a good idea.

Ah. There's a problem.

The purpose of the canal is to provide a transport route for vessels 'twixt the Pacific and Atlantic oceans without the long and hazardous detour via the tip of South America. In order to achieve that, a series of locks has had to be built to raise and lower the vessels. Ship velocity in a canal has to be low, partly to give the ship an opportunity to manoeuvre, partly to keep 'wash' down, and partly so it can make some headway. So the water velocity has to be low as well.

In order to harness the difference in levels between the oceans, some form of water conduit needs to be provided where velocities can be high enough to turn turbines. Therefore the conduit used would need to be something other than that required for shipping. At the moment the canal tonnage is about 3.5 times over its original design capacity!

Note that in order for locks to work, water has to go downhill, so there's already some gravity-based energy in the water already in the locking system available: 202,000m³ per vessel, times 40 vessels per day, each way, times the average height difference between Gatun Lake and mean sea level!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal

So, is it the water transferred from the "moving up" locks into the lake that keeps the lake level up? Otherwise, I'd think that the lake level would eventually drop. Or I guess it probably rains enough tropical central america to keep the levels up.

Now, drilling a tunnel from one side of the isthmus to the other, and using the tide differential to drive some turbines, that's a possibility! I mean, hey, they dug a pair of them from Jolly ol' England over to France, right? All it takes is $$$.

<So, is it the water transferred from the "moving up" locks into the lake that keeps the lake level up?>

No. The water always passes downhill. The lake's level is kept up by collected rainwater. Back-pumping, i.e. the mechanical pumping of water from a lower level to an upper one past a lock chamber, is done on some canals in times of low rainfall.

<Now, drilling a tunnel from one side of the isthmus to the other, and using the tide differential to drive some turbines, that's a possibility!>

It needs to be a different conduit to the one that passes ships. The velocity in the ship conduit needs to be kept low to effect navigation, whereas for power generation, it would need to be high to maximise energy capture. One couldn't use one conduit for both facilities.

<I mean, hey, they dug a pair of them from Jolly ol' England over to France, right?>

Actually there are three tunnels. The outer two pass trains and the centre one is a service, emergency and pressure-balancing facility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel

So it is not practical to have the up and down displacement to flow through pipes? I think it very practical. Even if it were a closed system where just the up and down hydraulics formed the pressure to vacuum reciprocation to drive a wheel and make E

(thank you Google Sketchup)

It is possible, though impractical, as it would slow the draining and filling of locks, and therefore reduce the carrying capacity of the canal. It is already operating at 3.5 times its original design tonnage!

How about a siphon?

'Should be enough to drive a turbine.

^{This is a brainstorm idea. Further research is required.}

Yes, provided its summit was less than 32ft or so above the lowest sea level. Temperature needs to be taken into account -

• Say sea temperature of 30degC → Steam Tables → vapour pressure of water is 0.042 bar.
• 1.013 bara - 0.042 Bara = 0.971 bara to support a water column at 30degC.
• Say 30degC → Steam Tables → density of water = 957kg/m³
• pressure = density x gravity x height → height = 97100N/m² / 957kg/m³ / 9.81m/s² = 10.3m, x 39.37in/m / 12in/ft = 33.9ft.

OK, near enough. What about tidal variations between oceans?

What about tidal variations between oceans?

Ah, I'd need to research about that.

Is the difference constant? 'don't think so. Is there any point in time where the tide levels reverse? I don't know. If it doesn't reverse, how low is the lowest difference?

I'll have to check for those.

I suddenly remembered last night that I saw this same principle used. It was an episode in Discovery Channel or National Geographic and it was in Israel, where they layed a large pipe from the Mediterranean to the Dead Sea (which is below sea level). The siphon effect drove turbines to provide power. I don't know what became of it. They projected that the Dead Sea's level would rise somewhat but still stay below sea level.

Were such a channel dug out,

it still would have at least two gates

to minimize current effects on traffic.

The tide differential between the atlantic and pacific sides

arises mainly from the shape of the ground near the shore.

I doubt whether the average flow rate thru the channel

could be harvested , realistically, as an energy source.

"Giant underwater turbines in the Gulf stream", however,

IS viable..

"Giant underwater turbines placed in the Gulf stream would be viable"!

My friend, if you were to do that then I am afraid that people living in the northern parts of the UK and Norway etc, would freeze!!!

This is what would happen: If the Gulf stream has XXX amount of energy in it, and you extract X amount via the turbines, then the result would be that the Gulf stream beyond the turbines would only have XX amount of energy left in it.

This would be devastating to the ecology of both the UK and Norway.

Spencer.

Locate a similar water stream that flows to the Arctic or Antarctic and solve two problems at once. Sort of like "water conditioning".

Or place them off the west coast of Africa and eliminate hurricanes.

Or, or...

(I can't think I'm serious.)

Bravo...Exactly the sort of points I was trying to make people think about....

Once a chanel was cut ..would it carve itself out a bigger and bigger?...and what would happen to the currents we rely on.

PS..It's the North Atlantic Drift once it get s across to us...not the gulf stream...this is a common missconception...albeit mere pedantry

Del

I think the tidal difference will change from atlantic to pacific and back again at least twice per 24 hours.

Not?

<If all the lock gates were opened...what would be the global impact ???>

The distance between the surface and the cill stone under the upper gates gives an idea of the deepest draught vessel that may pass any lock. The summit level at Panama, less the deepest draught, is still at a higher elevation than mean sea level in the area. So the effect would be pretty minimal. Lake Gatún would drain away and ships would have a much longer, more hazardous and more time-consuming journey around Cape Horn.

Locks provide a facility for a vessel to climb and descend hills. As well as the surface rising and falling at locks, so does the level of the invert. There would be no great rush of water from the Pacific to the Atlantic or vice versa, as the upper pounds aren't cut deeply enough for that to happen.

<....the upper pounds aren't cut deeply enough for that to happen...>

If they were, then there wouldn't be a need for all those wonderful locks, and Del wouldn't have a question to ask!

Given the energy contained in the gulf stream

there ain't no way there would be a measurable effect on the contained energy therein from a few thousand well place 200 foot diameter turbines.

Ah that's we thought about a bit of heavy industry shoving out CO^2.

Some of these systems are in a pretty delicate balance. There is already concern about the circulation of hot & cold water up near the pole...the something or other conveyor, I believe it's called.

There is the posibility that some of these currents could switch like those fluid logic gates and then take hundreds of years to switch back....

If the Gulf Stream/North Atlantic Drift shifted it could have a huge effect.

Some good pics of the global current on this link.

Del

Hi Del.

Yes, I cannot understand that engineers cannot grasp the idea that if you take out of a well balanced nature without puting it back, then you will upset the balance of nature!!!

I have seen this happen time and time again, for example; If you harness the power of the waves, then the shoreline that they usually reach will suffer a huge amount of destruction!

Our planet is a finely tuned balance of nature, if we disrupt this we suffer the consequencies?

I once experienced this destruction at first hand; In the far north of Norway they drowned a huge valley, much to the consternation of the people living nearby, what happened after is now history! Many rare specis of plants disappeared forever, the insects and animals that were dependant on these plants have gone and the resulting huge lake created a micro climate not native to the area!

I wish mankind would grow up and realise that that the destuction of nature is the death of us all in the future!

I wish you a merry Christmas and a Happy new year.

Spencer.

"…Sea level is about 20-40 cm higher on the Pacific side than the Atlantic due to the water being less dense on average on the Pacific side and due to the prevailing weather and ocean conditions (e.g. 1°C of global air temperature rise amounts to about 10 cm of thermal expansion of sea level) Such sea level differences are common across many short sections of land dividing ocean basins."

Dangers of the Lock Canal.; Gustav Lindenthal Wants a'Revision of ...

No one would have dreamed of taking and completing the Panama Canal if the ... that if the dams for the lock canal should break, the dam at Gamboa, ...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9501E7D81731E733A25751C1A9629C946897D6CF