Practical skills

When I had gone back to college, I recall (2) professors, one was very well prepared for lectures the other very poor. Students did not care for the one that was poor because (we) the students did not care for the one that was never prepared.

Since I had return to college at 25, I saw the positive of it. That poorly prepared instructor had tasught me a very valuble tool. How to research and find answers or solutions on your own. And handle things that are chaositc, organize and solve problems.

Making problems manageable.

College is an organized institution well worth the effort. And you get out of it what you put into it.

phoenix911

I'll add:

Ability to approximate - so they know immediately if there's been a gross mistake keying data into a calculator or whatever. This is something everyone used to be taught when sliderules ruled the Earth.

Ability to check units - and to know how to convert one set to another (or to know where to look to find out how).

Ability to recognize and understand marks such as ' and " (when appearing with °, as an angle, or without, as feet and inches), just in case they turn up.

Ability (/instinct?) when setting out a calculation, to check the dimensions (as per if we're looking for an answer in seconds, do the masses and distances all cancel out correctly?).

JohnDG

This can go on, because there is so much to it that does not all come from books.

Your comment,

Ability to approximate - so they know immediately if there's been a gross mistake keying data into a calculator or whatever.

There were a few times (after college) when we doing a project, when we could recognized a problem (that should very little issues to say its a problem) but could not pinpoint it immediately. Recognizing a red flag we put attention to it, that adverted a rather huge problem. This is done by noticing a pattern.

This I believe came from practical as well as a trained background.

I have told people, (mostly the younger ones just out of or still in college) Look at education as a tool. The tool is only as good as the person who knows how to use it.

I think he grew up in a practical environment and got a chance to study because he is bright.

Suddenly he is exposed to concepts he cannot relate to and therefore ask questions or challenges it.

What he needs at this stage is the ability to accept some strange info until he can verify it for him selves.

In my time the knowledge about the electron progressed from "the what?" , ball, hole, particle, wave , . . . . . "the where?". Enough to confuse anybody.

We should assist him because his community needs him to succeed.

Ability to..

Observe, it never ceases to amaze me how many people can't accurately observe what is around them.
Analyse
Make logical deductions from the two above.
Listen.

Recognise when they don't know what they are doing, stop and think, ask for assistance, research what they are trying to do.

Type without going into UPPER CASE.

Del

You are right on target on this comment Del. Couldn't agree more, especially the first point.

You make a very interesting observation. Engineers, scientists and technicians tend to design, build and repair things but tend to overlook the most sophisticated learning experience...the human body. I have worked with engineers that understood the need for cooling water in a mechanical system but walked around in a dehydrated state with a cup of coffee. They understand the need for oxygen in a boiler operation, but consume cigarettes like a rabbit with carrots. I could go on and on with this but I think you will get my drift. The human body provides each of us an opportunity to work with computers, sensors, hydraulics, mechanics, electronics etc etc. and to reap the immediate benefits. I think everyone should take the time to read and study more about the human body and how we can take care of it without running to a doctor with every cough. Several years ago I came across an inexpensive book called the Natural Remedies Encyclopedia. It continues to educate me. It is available at www.natures-apothecary.com

build and repair things but tend to overlook the most sophisticated learning experience...the human body.

It may be your point of veiw, and it could be some truth into it.

My own personal experience is that I know what my limits are. and earlier in my career I walked on the edge of those limits. And when I surpassed it, Then I was in trouble.

Some people my even say that one has paid ones dues. With experience one tends to work smarter, not harder.

phoenix911

It's a very good point. Apparently the reason cardiology was in the forefront of the modern highly instrumented form of medicine is that a couple hydraulic engineers got involved and started modeling the heart as a pump and away they went.

Ragavan is an ME while I'm an Instrumentation Technician. In observing my ME buddies, I'll have this to share.

• An ability to find the source of the problem - recently, we had a problem with a temperature sensor that kept having loose connections. When it happened, the whole process would shutdown because it was part of the safety system. My boys would go to the location, tighten it up and leave. A few days later, it'd happen again. The problem turned out to be high vibrations coming from a belt-driven fan which was shaking up the whole floor. Luckily the problem was found before it became worse. Unfortunately, the people who found the high vibration were my instrument technicians, not the mechanics (by feel at that).
• Have an interest in the electrical side of things as well - mechanical things usually, if not always, have something electrical either driving it or helping it function. I forget how many times they changed a pump size without changing the motor size as well. There were also the times when a motor over-temperature or over-current alarm would go off and they'd say, "call the electrician first". Then the electrician would say, "The motor's fine, but not for long. The pump is making funny noises".
• An attitude of "doing without being told" (pro-activeness) - you might argue that this is not a skill. I still say it's something they should have (and be taught in school and home).
• Think and work safety - this is a skill as well as an attitude. Anyone who says otherwise, stay away from me and everyone else.

Dear Vulcan, I have been dealing with vibration control but on a commercial level mostly not industrial. What you described could be an eventual nightmare. There are many remedies for that though, I hope it was taken care of promptly.

I am curious what type of isolators, etc. you used and perhaps other details. Any chance I could peruse any public info ?

I hope it was taken care of promptly

Not completely. The place still shakes but not as bad as it did when the trouble started.

As far as I know, the belts were replaced. I don't know if the rubber dampers at the footing of the motor and fan were inspected. Just to protect my instrument, I relocated it to a pipe that was isolated by a sleeve from from the fan.

Compounding the problem is the floor. It's actually just grating with I-beams criss-crossing underneath. It's probably strong enough (yeah, what do I know about that) but not exactly solid either.

I'm having the place monitored daily by the vibration monitoring crew. On the next maintenance cycle next week, they'll be checking the fan for balance.

Being basically (if not so much cross trained), at least have an understanding of other disiplines such as control. I have experienced first hand when ME engineer projects that has controls involved, without actually bringing control people in the plan. This always happens from younger and rather irogant engineers, they thought they knew better.

When I had work at the shipyard we had a saying for this when it happens, that was very descriptive.

It was called an abortion that went bad.

Not a good thing.

phoenix911

Ability to hear what is said, and understand what is not.

Commitment to do right regardless of personal consequences.

Passion to do things right as well as do the right things.

Protect the customer and Society.

Intelligently manage risk.

Continuous improvement.

These may not be "practical," but without these, the practice may well be harmful.

milo

Reading, Writing, Presentation Skills, Social Skills, Good Communicator, Knowledge of the industry and above all be humble!

Dear contributors,

I feel that we have to start much earlier in life to learn the basics of later skills.

At the age of 1 to 2 years we shall have the possibility to grab everything that is in our reach only being restricted from those items that can do permanent damage.

At the age of 3 to 5 we shall learn the first basic tools: beginning with stones, wooden sticks and hammers and proceeding to saws, knives, axes and the whole variety of hand-held (non motorised) tools that can do some damage but everybody will learn.

At the age of 5 to 12 better use and elevated skills with these and some starting at 8 with highly advanced possibilities.

Don't forget the "not useful" skills as music and painting, this will lay the basics for math and organisation and chaos handling.

This will lay the foundations for all the skills mentioned above.

As for language learning we have a easy and fruitful window in the age of 1 to 6 years the same is true for any other skill.

Many will argue that this is much too early.

But if you have a look at the few surviving hunter and gatherer societies you will see and learn that this early learning possibly dangerous tools is not really dangerous but necessary for a useful skill development.

There was the famous children's educator from Poland, Kaciorski, who declared the rights of children, the right to have the possibility to learn from injuries is among these!

We have to invent a new generation of kinder-gardens and schools and high-schools and universities.

Take the chance!

RHABE

The strong person will rule the chaos the weak one needs some order.

Students should have the ability to understand what spectral data is and to understand various types of time data and what a fourier transform does to this data. This is handy in many fields imo.

There are two keys to success in every endeavor:

1) Awareness - If you are not aware of it (whatever you define 'it' as), it may as well not exist, but it DOES exist, and it can make or ruin your efforts.

2) Communication - No matter what you know, if you cannot discuss it effectively, you may as well be ignorant of it. And whatever you do not know, you never will without some form of communication.

3) Passion - What you are passionate about, you will MAKE succeed if it is not impossible, but whatever you are not passionate about, it can fail and you won't be internally affected.

OK, so that's three keys - so sue me... Everyone needs a spare key occasionally.

This is one of the most insightful posts that I have read. As I look at my competencies, and my hobbies, I too see the congruence.

Great observation. for a guy brandishing a sword.

milo

Yup, the multi-disciplinary approach. A varied background makes one so much more indispensible, because you are the ONE GUY that can fill in for anyone else who's out sick, on vacation, etc. A trait that's kept me in work more than once!

Golf isn't a hobby so much as a form of self flagellation. Curling is more of a sport than 'social golf', at least from what I've seen in the Winter Olympics...

You know, that's a good answer that I wouldn't have thought of. Almost every really good engineer I ever met did woodwork, built scale railroads, flew airplanes, played a musical instrument, restored antique cars, did stained glass, etc. I never put the traits together.

As from other posts, very good observation.

I agree.

A question for th egroup.

Are engineers born or made by society?

Nay, society was built by engineers. This one is Revision 0, the pilot run. For Rev 1, we're taking out accountants, management types, and politicians. Oh, and adding mandatory calculus.

Sounds good to me. A utopia will be populated by scientists and engineers who self manage and no politics will be necessary because everyone would know how to see truth in reality because of their great observational skills.

Hey, don't forget to take out the Lawyers and how about the aclu ahile you all are at it?

Born!

Hey with your sword and my longbow...we must go pillageing together sometime

Del

Trained by society, but without an inborn sense of curiosity, probably not well-trained...

Sigh, as usual, BOTH. See the topic "Nature vs Nurture" in any good psychology course. Right, SteveS?

Good Lord...where to start? TVP45 and others hit on some truly necessary things.

A very needed thing is the ability to ask oneself a question and and follow through to find the answer. "Hmm, how does this widget do that?" ..or.. "hmm, will a 150gpm pump be big enough?"

There seems to be a pervasive attitude though of wanting ...and expecting ... others to GIVE an answer, instead of a young engineer (or student) doing the work needed to find an appropriate answer. We see this everyday on this forum based on the type of questions posed, more often than not by GUEST. People that can't be bothered to register...then pose a very vague or poorly worded question. Knowing they have language barrier issues, they can't be bothered to make an effort so others can make sense out of their question. Or to come back and respond.

A couple of years ago I accepted to participate in an internship program promoted by an area college. The intention was to bring in students and give them a couple of months of exposure to production in a facility that puts out a couple million pounds of product a week. Give them some practical experience in the real world. I would get some temp help out of the deal. Out of all of them I had, only ONE was truly interested in learning, working, and furthering their knowledge. Most couldn't even make it to work on time, let alone simply find me a replacement part out of Grainger's.

I can sympathise with Ragavan's frustration. But what so many people like this don't get is that practical experience is gained from doing stuff. It's not just gifted on them. You want to learn basic mechanics? Go take your car apart. Want to learn soldering, drive over to the dump and find some junk to practice on. I invited a few of the students refenced above to come sailing with me. I live on San Fracisco Bay, I have a sailboat, come learn the ropes ... No..I only get a little time to play nintendo these days... was a common response.

This is a wonderful example how we can do things right.

Start very early in life,

do things that require some learning and enjoy these, make them to temporary or permanent hobbies,

make your hands (may be more) dirty many times,

get some injuries (no permanent damage please) sometimes,

and result in much better capabilities than the poor neighbour boy who is only allowed to sit at the TV and the games console.

But how to tell the authorities that some injuries are better than no injuries?

How to tell todays parents that dirty boys and girls are better than those that are in perfect dress and no stains?

And how to tell teachers and schools and authorities to change their stupid requirements.

RHABE

I believe that you have hit upon something. Noone today in the US is interested in serving their apprenticeship.

4 years of college, 6 months on the job, and they are wondering why they aren't yet a vice president with expense accounts etc.

I shoveled iron ore and flue dust and dolomite in a sintering plant at an blast furnace based steel maker, to put myself through college. SHoveled iron ore on the ore boats unloading, worked in a slag crusher before I got a shot at a clerical, and then an environmental engineering job.

Then lab supervisor in a BOF lab, then Pipemill Lab. Then Metllurgical lab, then plant metallurgist.

Its difficult to pull the wool over someone's eyes, when they've had to wash the subject material out of their eyes- and ears, and navel and...

milo

I served 5 years as an Endentured Apprentice in my unions apprenticeship. Loved most of it. Instruction is a big thing for sure but I would have to say that you engineering types are mostly born and then shaped, or built by society. Without the interrogative nature (read questioning) there would be no desire to do, or learn the things that would shape you into an engineer. I keep tossing around the idea of going to school and getting a degree in electrical engineering, it would fall right into place with my schooling (my apprenticeship is accredited through a community college system here in So Cal so I have credits toward a degree). But, I enjoy being out in the field - you know not trapped in an office environment (where my mouth would get me into trouble really quick)...

elnay,

I thought I said that. only in not so many words.

Good experience and I enjoyed your comment.

I had managed and well as mentored engineers also. And one thing I told them is your worst experience is usually your best. but it may not seem that way at the time.

phoenix911

"Out of all of them I had, only ONE was truly interested in learning, working, and furthering their knowledge."

My guess is you were fortunate to find even one. But, hey, that one was even more fortunate that you found him, eh?

Switchman wrote: I can sympathise with Ragavan's frustration. But what so many people like this don't get is that practical experience is gained from doing stuff. It's not just gifted on them.

REPLY

I would be interested to hear if Ragavan has read the postings on this thread which was sparked by his original question.

I came up the same way, and what I learned along the way was just as important, than what I learned the "standard" way. So much so, that it is ingrained in me to verify in some practical way the booklearning, before really accepting it. Lo and behold, when you find the third (incompatible formula for an inductor, or whatever), and you measure another value again, you know you are onto something.

Now, when it was time to advise my kid, I strongly suggested the same thing. In her case it took the form of seeking out unpaid internship in a lab good 2 years before any other thought of it. When she finishes, she will have 6 years very practical lab work, leading team now and 2 years teaching assistantship. Instead I paying tuition the college pays her (not much, but nearly enough to get by). 95% of her classmates did not get their hands dirty, if at all possible. So, guess whom will a company pick first and foremost: the few who have already proven, that they can DO right away.

The same happened to my friends son too. He took apart, and rebuilt engines at the age 13 / 14. Wanted to become a top mechanic. By the time he was 17 (one year before the end of his training), he was already picked by a top dealership. Reason: capable, attentive, polite, punctual. It was anything, but an accident.

Interesting thread as usual. I'd say engineers are born, then shaped by society. They're the ones who dismantle the radio to see where the electrons (blue of course) come in, or who dismantle the engine in their father's car because, well, just because. Engineering school provides some theory behind what makes stuff tick, but it just encourages them to think, "say how about if I take this apart and reassemble it like so", etc. It's when you start working in real life that you really learn how to "engineer" something. This leads to a lifetime of questioning and striving to improve things around you. Why ? Maybe because engineers feel they can always make something different or better, or both. Makes them feel god-like. Build something out of nothing, sweat it for six days, then rest on the seventh - with a cold beer

Only one item is required, all of the rest will build on this one thing...

The drive to succeed

The drive to succeed must be tempered with compassion - be careful who you drive over on the way.

There must also be direction - attempting to drive without care for or knowledge of the road ahead can lead to disaster.

And education - lack of the ability correctly to interpret the signs to be read along the way also leads to an unfortunate conclusion.

Quite so - if all one has is a drive to succeed, one becomes as one-dimensional (shallow, that is) as a character in an Ayn Rand novel.

You are SO right! In fact, I just gave you a 'good answer' vote. How about considering registering as a member so you can share more 'graybeard' wisdom? We have more 'guests' than can be kept track of here as it is...

YESirree.

Too bad your good answer vote wont be attributed..

please register, we look forward to your continuing contributions

milo

I attribute a lot of my learning to not being afraid to make a fool of myself. I know this isn't a skill but being afraid to look foolish to the point you are afraid to try something new is akin to having a closed mind.

To impress the graybeards, make it clear that you are eager to learn and be prepared to eat a lot of ****. There are all kinds of graybeards!

When on takes the point position on a project that has not been done before, one needs courage, confidence and clear thinking.

That separates the leaders. But even leaders have to pay their dues.

Make a fool, ask questions whatever it is called as long as you are learning I guess. Anytime I am given an apprentice to work with (mentor) I will quiz him and then work on the things that I feel he might be lacking (to greater extent that I can on the job that I am at) skills/knowledge however you wnat to put it. The thing that I try to stress is that NO QUESTION IS STUPID and that picking a journeyman(s) brain is a good thing to do (better his brain then something else ): it will help them to learn and also help the journeyman to tap into the gray matter that he might not be using a whole lot at the time of the question.