Boy, you have your work cut out for you. I'm trying to picture this in my mind, and having a little trouble actually, (me=not big brain). Anyway, let me read it over again and again and again, and perhaps I may have something to add. Very interesting, and I think possible a la Rube Goldburg.

Yes Bricktop,

Rube is one of my heroes. I don't think this really lives up to one of his designs. This, hopefully, can be accomodated by a standard engine compartment. His might take up a pasture.

I would have drawn it but don't have the software or enough computer to run it on and the arthritus in my hands forestalls the option of drawing, taking a picture and posting that.

Sparkstation,

Where shall I start? You have some valid points. I suppose I could have addressed these things in more detail in my original post. It was, however, already enough to give bricktop a headache.

Laying aside the idea of building from scratch let's go on to lubrication. Piston rings have made great strides in the past decades. It is possible to now get rings that overlap instead of having the gap. The oil itself has been upgraded with lots of different properties. An oil conditioner (I am told) with a de-emulsifying agent for marine applications has been developed and a water trap filtration system.

Yes, I realize that opening up the spark plug holes may impinge upon the water jacket. I will cross that bridge when I come to it. If necessary I will install stainless threaded sleeves with some high-temp Locktite.

Please note I mentioned changing the engine from 4 cycle to 2 cycle thereby giving it twice as many power strokes. Additionally it is no longer an internal combustion engine. It is an expansion engine. Steam has an incredible propensity for expansion. I believe the number is 16 to 1 and increases with temperature. As you may see (if you read carefully) I have allowed for some of this great expansion by recycling first to a second set of pistons and then to a turbine.

Years ago I got to take a tour of the steam power generation plant at Hanford. I saw that the superheated steam from the reactor was put through first 1 relatively small turbine and from there to 2 or 3 much larger turbines and still they said they were not getting the total potential from it.

I do not believe this will be a mere toy but the veritable resurrection of a technology once abandoned in favor of gas and diesel powered engines due to the supposedly unlimited availability of these fuels. The technology is out there. It just needs to be properly channeled.

There is some really good steam stuff in modelling books. I recently bought one one Steam Traction Engines it was published by Special Interest Models Books. Another good place to look is Plough Book Shop and the Australian Model Engineering website. I bought a heap of books through AME and they were good to deal with. I'm sure there are many similar organisations around the world. The Books I bought are all British and the Brits seem to be rather fond of steam.

As well as engines what I learned about boilers was amazing, and that was just one book.

Construction methods and timing issues etc are all laid out. If you elect to use the Tercel engine in some way, your cam timing system could be useful with the ratios changed.

I feel, much like Sparky says, that if you read up on valving and condensation issues you will most likely not use the Dizzy as a steam valve.

It is amazing what some of the steam buffs build with their Myford 7 lathes and home made accessories, valve chests, lubricators, cams, you name it.

Please keep us updated.

I agree fully.

The original poster may want to use say pistons an crank from an IC engine, but trying to use the block etc. is just to my mind, inefficient and a waste of the steam energy. Steam needs to be re-used at least once.

I would recommend looking for good reading material about double and triple expansion engines before going further.....Wikipedia is an excellent starting place.

Andy,

A careful reader would have noticed that the expansion issue has been addressed several times, As has the idea of using other parts than that which I have on hand.

...and a very careful reader would have noticed that I was one of the first to mention it!!!

He hasn't a clue.....this is not his first Blog on this subject, it may be his second at least.......you were not quite careful enough!!!I posted in his previous effort, the differences are minor, but he has not started to build yet.......

Anyone who understands a little about steam would realize that having a working steam engine and having a working steam engine that does not require stoking every 10 minutes can be two widely different things......

In days of old, when workers were cheap you could do it, but today, the cost of the fuel, let alone a stoker as well make steam in an amateur way, much less attractive.....

There is on a CR4 blog somewhere someone who has done this and completely given up as to keep his house running with electricity was a full time job of stoking alone, not finding the fuel, just putting it in the boiler to keep enough steam available to make electricity!!!!

Sorry Andy,

I guess I was a bit snappy. I certainly welcome your input but at this time will not be swayed. I am doing this on the cheap with stuff that would otherwise be junk and since I am retired and need projects to keep my mind and body active it makes no difference to me if some think I am tilting at windmills.

Walt, do some more thinking before you put some money in this project. Compare a steam turbine to a steam locomotive. As steam cools in a turbine the diameter gets smaller. Steam expanding in a cylinder lost its power at the end of the stroke unless you reheat it to a higher temp and that needs extra energy. where is that coming from? This is just my logic.

"As steam cools in a turbine the diameter gets smaller. ... This is just my logic."

A little knowledge (logic) is a dangerous thing, little better than guessing.

High Pressure Steam Enters the Small End .... of the turbine and expands leaving the large diameter end into the condenser where is is cooled / condensed to use as boiler feed water.

This expansion must also be accommodated for in a steam engine by the second stage cylinders being larger. Another problem in converting an ICE engine to steam.

Shadetree Attempt to convert an ICE to Steam if you feel you just have to. As for me I would study some material on single and double expansion (two stage) Steam Engines first. Then if you need a Steam Engine for whatever reason or purpose buy a set of castings and machine them or buy them ready to assemble or a complete finished engine ready to hook up to a boiler and run.

Just another thought, you will need a condenser..............ample cooling water, not to mention air ejectors to maintain a vacuum.

If I recall reciprocating steam engines have an efficiency of 12-14%, however don't quote me on that one, it's been a while since I tampered with a steam recip, a triple expansion steam engine...........feeling bearing temperatures by hand as connecting rods go whizzing past your ears, Stevenson's link motion for reversing, etc pretty dangerous stuff, just as well they didn't have occ health and safety then.

OK, I'm gonna let y'all in on a couple of secrets.

1) I'm feeling my mortality. Time is catching up to me. I don't want to leave things undone. In 1964 (I was 14 and in 7th grade) I got interested in steam power. Digging into my dad's engineering books I developed a steam turbine design using superheated steam. I showed the design to my science teacher and got a lot of the same arguments I have seen here and other places. Steam is dangerous. You don't want to mess with that ol' steam stuff boy. It was a short time later that Lear (of Lear Jet fame) brought out his (by then pattented) design.

2) I don't have much money and so I empathize with the poor people who will be hit the hardest when the gasoline titty gets pinched off. Something as readilly available as wood (and other fiberous pelletizable sources) should be examined as fuel sources. The best way (to my mind) is to produce steam power.

3) I hate to keep stressing this but "I dont have much money" so I have to use what I have on hand or can make cheaply with limited tooling. I have a yard full of junk autos. So . . . How can I turn junk into joy. A little money would probably change all that and I might not be going down this path at all. But here I am for better or worse.

I'd like to include here a little poem I have on a plaque on my wall.

The clock of time is wound but once and no man has the power

To know just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour

Now is the only time you own, so live, love, toil with a will

Place no faith in "tomorrow" for the clock may then be still

I understand, Junk is good!

the questions are how may horsepower of steam are you going to produce? How much of that can be applied to the tercel motor?

How much HP do you think is accecptable? maybe 30-40?

I'll be happy with 30 to 40 HP but I think it will do better than that.

They will all return

All of them,

As long as the deep sea rolls.

He never wasted leaf or tree,

Why would he squander souls?

Rudyard Kipling

Orpheuse

Hello Johann Vondrus

Here's a nice animated picture of a steam turbine, just for you.

Kind Regards....

Sparky- What's that recip device on top of the turbine?

Hello mike k

The wee animated picture is diagrammatic only, for information to those who have never seen a steam turbine working.

The reciprocating device you ask about, is part of the speed control system, ensuring as load increases, more steam is allowed to enter the turbine, thus maintaining turbine efficiency/speed, for varying loads/turbine mechanical output.

More work (load) required = more steam input.

Less work (load) required = less steam input.

Please appreciate the animated diagram is a simplified version.

Kind Regards....

I'm sorry if I'm jumping into the discussion in the middle, but, how are you going to generate the steam?

Orpheuse

This thread is an offshoot of:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/18674?frmtrk=cr4sd#newcomments

Hello friends

Shadetree is definitely on the right "path", but the approach seems to follow the "beaten-track' method in that the technical procedures are based on "re structuring" the already existing designs.

It may be noted that while the IC engines have efficiencies in the range 12.5% to 18% (at the ultimate usage points), the most "efficient" conventional Steam engines do not seem to have even 3% efficiency. Thus, any NEW engineered system in Steam Engine based power processes MUST be an attempt at improving EFFICIENCY levels.

The nearest such attempt that seems to have practical potential is a US Patent: HIGH EFFICIENCY INTERNAL COMBUSTION STEAM ENGINE

The said engine is "claimed" to deliver 50% efficiency

This writer is very seriously working on various SUSTAINABILITY ENGINEERING Projects, including the Open source Design in CR4

http://cr4.globalspec.com/blog/97/APIX-Pilot-Plant-Design-Project-Recycling-Wastes

... and is planning to utilize STEAM POWER in some processes, through Improved Efficiencies, and is looking for such Innovative Engineered solutions

Having said this, the writer wishes to congratulate Shadetree for having initiated this LIVELY and very pertinent discussion on this Engineering Problem-situation, and it is hoped that the enlightened members of CR4 would take up the challenge and come up with Definite Solution, so that the same could be ONE MORE ANSWER TO THE ENERGY CRISIS.

HIGH EFFICIENCY INTERNAL COMBUSTION STEAM ENGINE

If anything is too good to be true...................it probably is.

I believe this was discussed in a previous post recently.

Hi friends

Here is another excellent work on improving the efficiency of Steam Power:

Novel High-Tech Steam Engine system for automotive applications

Please note: these "threads" and links are being presented, to enlighten all concerned that very serious works are going on on the improvement of Steam Power efficiency, and thereby improve the chances of utilizing the better energy option: Steam Power

pvhramani

SIMPLIFY: Why not use solenoid valves at each cylinder and forget all of the extra plumbing. Same concept as fuel injection. You can still use the distributor to run everything. If you want a 2-cycle configuration then change the gearing on the distributor to spin twice as fast. Yes I know that will involve some work but it sounds like you are up to it. You could modify the top of it and leave the stock parts in the motor.

I cant find solenoid valves that will handle the reps. Do you know of any?

What is your target RPM range for your new power band? Are you going to change the flywheel and tranny gears? Using 2 valves per cylinder operating alternately would half the cycle times. 4 valves would give you even more time between individual cycles. I guess it depends on if you are building this for racing or cruising.

I dont want to change any gearing. This means an opperational range between 0 to 5000 rpm with cruising at between 2500 to 3500 rpm. The best valves I have looked at so far are good for a maximum lifetime of 1,000,000 reps. They wont even tell me what the max cycles per minute would be. I didn't think that would be such an obstacle.

Could you use an old mechanical injector set up from a diesel? It would handle the cycles & the pressure, but I'm not sure about the volume or lack of lube? You could use the cam drive to spin it. It'd be easy to fool around with the pullys & belts to get whatever speed you wanted. Modify the intake & exaust manifolds so each cylinder has a separate feed. The only problem with the exising valves is the inability to hold pressure from the manifold side, should be fine from the cylinder side.

Garthh,

I will investigate the diesel injector pump idea. As to the valving I am considering doing the cam mod myself. I have a box of prefluxed brass that needs to get used up. Hopefully I can keep the ballance from getting too far out of wack. I'm also not sure what that much heat will do to the cam shaft.

Can't you change the pulley on the cam or crank so it runs 1:1 with the crank? isn't the tercel motor using a timing belt for the cam? you can buy different pulleys[cheap] or adapt a crank pulley to fit the cam. The different size belts are only going to be $20 or so from grainger or motion, applied...[pick your industrial supplier].

Garthh,

That would only take care of half the problem. I need the intake and exhaust to open simultaniously. This creates a larger opening for the steam to exit the cylinder. This assumes, of course, that I am going to use the spark plug holes to introduce the steam. It is a rather convoluted mental path we take to reach this point, and then there's the added insult of the middle cylinders being fed by the exhaust valve sides of the outers. If I hadn't spent a good portion of my automotive career in front end alignment (and not just by reading spec sheets but by understanding the interactions of the angles of the parts) I might have worse migrains.

Ohh,

That means your donor car is a single cam.

maybe you could just use the exaust side & use the intake side as check valves with no rockers & lighter springs? Andy germany was mentioning that you basic valve would only hold back 15 psi from the wrong side. Still feeding the incoming steam through a modified manifold & distributor set up[diesel idea}

weren't you going to use 2 cylinders as primary & 2 as secondary? depending on the geometry of the crank maybe a combination of intake & exaust with the functions

reversed. You could get down to just 2 solenoids or high pressure valves.

Now I'm getting a headache.

I'm just trying to throw out some stuff, that comes to mind.

Some CAV pumps that were built for engines to run primarily on gas were lubricated from the main engine lubrication system. However I think, from memory, that these were only reasonably large pumps and may not be suitable for the intended application.

I may be able to obtain more info if required.

Hey Mobi,

It's always good to have info, whether it turns out to be useful or not.

Input . . Input . . Must have Input!! Disassemble?! No disassemble . . No . . No .

"The best valves I have looked at so far are good for a maximum lifetime of 1,000,000 reps."

They are electro-mechanical valves. They have an expected lifetime of a number of cycle of operation determined by testing under operating conditions.

The straight forward mechanical valves in steam engines DO HAVE TO BE SERVICED periodically but only after many hours or miles of operation as in a steam locomotive.

Do you really have intentions of installing this projected engine in an automotive vehicle and use it for conventional transportation??

If so the other issues raised above are of considerable consequence. Is the game really worth the chase?

I went home and thought about this more last night. Is your engine fuel injected? Have you thought of using the computer to control the solenoid timing? If you have the know how, sorry I don't, you could edit the injector timing in the computer to control the solenoids instead of the distributor. This would add some flexibility to how long the solenoids would be open to aid in acceleration. If yours is not fuel injected what about a computer swap. While editing the computer you might have to turn off inputs from oxygen sensors that are no longer needed so it will run properly. Not sure on that though. I would also skip the idea of feeding some of the cylinders from others. It appears to me that this would cause a flow restriction on exhausting the steam from the previous cylinders. Yes it would give a more efficient burn if this was gasoline. Similar concept used in Puch "twingle" motorcycles. But since you are transferring steam there is not a burn to continue. Besides the volume displaced by the steam would be decreasing as it cools. This might not be an issue after the engine warms up. I would opt for the simple flow of intake and exhaust for each cylinder individually. I had also thought about injectors for diesel engines as others have mentioned. I was not sure if they would be able to provide adequate flow to meet your volume requirements in such a short time span. This project might be more suitable to try on a longer stroke engine that can develop more torque. You might consider an old diesel for the first go around and then have a working test bed to tweak out and apply the gained knowledge to your smaller engine. Sorry for the long post. I am done rambling now.

Thanks Mechanic,

All input is good. This '83 Tercell motor is carburated. As it looks right now (and there is still room for change, or even scrapping the whole thing) I will be removing the stock manifolds and bending my own from exhaust tubing (using an as yet to be purchased portable bender).

Yes, this short stroke, high rev engine is not the perfect candidate for steam. I have an old 390 Ford pickup that would probably work better, or another early fifties 2 ton Ford with a flathead V8 that might be ideal. This is, however, a testbed vehicle and, as such, an ideal candidate is not necessarily what I'm looking for. If I can make this work (and I believe I can) on this engine then the other mods will be easier yet.

Having been inthe business of repairing modern computer controlled vehicles for the last 30+ years, I have a strong aversion to incorporating these controls in this car. In fact, that is one of the beauties of steam, from my point of view, in that it should be easily controlled via mechanical valving. Ariving at a workable system is the process in which I am now engaged. All input is valued.

I wish you the best of luck. I believe that it can be done. It may not turn out to be practical in comparison to "todays technology". I had pondered steam power once upon a time. I came to the conclusion that when it was time to go home at the end of the day I did not want to wait for the boiler to build up pressure. I have turned my gaze more toward electric power and other hybrids. The wife says I have too much time on my hands. I rather think it to be the other way around. I wish I had more. I would very much enjoy doing what you are. Doing instead of talking.

I think you are on the right track with the Trecell engine to start with compared to the other two V8s. The ability to separate the intake and exhaust manifolds from the lubrication system will avoid problems. Do you have an old lawn mower engine available to work with? The ports on these allow easy experiments. Have you decided on solenoid valves over mechanical valving. The added drag from the mechanical valves seems hard to recover. The electrical energy for the solenoids might be able to be recovered from the spent exhaust steam by porting it backwards through a centrifical water pump, with an alternator attached to it.

Bob,

I have searched for solenoid valves but the manufacturers I have contacted indicate they would not function as needed without soon failing. If you know of something that will work or a site I can go to I'll be happy to explore it. I have already searched CR4 and Google but might have missed something. Usually it's all about search parameters.

http://fluids.ingersollrand.com/IS/category_table.aspx-en-3998Have

Have you tried these people? These are the Alpha valves I had used.

Bob,

I couldn't get that to come up.

Hello bob c and Shadetree

Try the following weblink:

http://fluids.ingersollrand.com/literature/?model=category_table.aspx?en=3998

Navigate to the page you require, click on the link you need, and it should be there.

Kind Regards....

The following Error Message came up on that hyperlink bob c quoted:

Quote:

Server Error in '/' Application.

---

Input string was not in a correct format.

Description: An unhandled exception occurred during the execution of the current web request. Please review the stack trace for more information about the error and where it originated in the code.

Exception Details: System.FormatException: Input string was not in a correct format.

Source Error:

Source File: e:\Sites\Fluids\IS\ITS.master.cs Line: 253

Stack Trace:

Thanks Sparkstation,

That worked. I'm not as computer savvy as I should be. I got that same message but to me it was gobbl-d-gook.

I'll have to call them tomorrow since I didn't see what I wanted in their catalogue.

I was on the site. There is a catalog they called "pneumatics and motion control"

There valves are large valves in their K series that should flow sufficient quantities. they are available with Viton seals and brass spools with teflon guides.

At the end of the valve section there are loads of timing valves and accessories.

Good luck

Yep,

You're right but in order to get into specifics I'll still have to call the factory. I'll do that tomorrow.

Good night all.

You seem to be on to something here. Mate your second cylinder head to the one on the engine exhaust to exhaust. Feed the common boiler feed to the intake manifold on the second head. Remove the intake valves on the second head. Now when the exhaust valve on the second head is activated steam will flow to the combustion chamber (?) of the engine. The cam drive for the second head should be usable to provide the correct opening sequence for the valves, if you use a cam sprocket from the now unneeded first camshaft. Try to picture the second head mounted on a shelf below and outboard of the exhaust side of the original head. The exhaust to exhaust connector pipes would be "U" shaped. The spent exhaust steam would exit from the intake side of the original head, back into the intake manifold and ready for additional use. Your plan would allow the valve operation to work mechanically, and have the ability to advance or retard valve timing events by changing the crank to cam relationship. Nice grasp of the idea.

Would routing steam through the cooling system ports help to maintain the energy of the steam? Direct from the boiler, or spent steam from the outlets of the engine?

The water jacket could preheat the condensate before the steam generator or after the turbo shadetree was going to use to power accessories.

you still need valves opening & closing to relieve the charge from the cylinders, The D/A secondary head just times the incoming charge.

proposed sequence for 1 cylinder:

D/A has full steam pressure, valve opens charge flows through tube to rockerless intake valve acting as a check pushing piston down.

@ bottom dead center, exhaust valve opens

fly wheel keeps crank & piston moving back to TDC

exhaust valve closes, repeat sequence.

it gets tricky because the exhaust from the 1st cylinder, feeds the 2nd..... to use as much of the steam energy as possible.

the routeing of the pipes may not be as easy as intake to intake, I think shadetree has anticipated this, which is why he is buying a pipe bender.

Ok. lets put the cam back into the first head. Replace the valve springs on the valves being used as check valves with soft springs, to reduce resistance to flow. Remove or modify the rocker arms on these valves to prevent the cam from opening them. We can now time the remaining valves to open as stated on BDC.

I do not think that we will be able to recover any additional energy from the exhaust at this point. If the engine is going to be converted to 2 cycle, the pistons are moving in pairs of two. The centers and the ends. If we route the exhaust from cyl. #1 to cyl #2 the piston is on the TDC. same condition if routed to #3. If routed to #4, it will be equal pressure as that cylinder was doing the same thing as #1.

I think that to recover additional energy, will require an engine with additional cylinders to be able to bring the spent steam to a cylinder that has the piston lower in the bore than the current one does. This might require a V8, or the odd fire Buick V6. I don't have a good grasp of the potential for bringing the steam into the cylinder before the main surge of steam goes in. How early or late?

But if the spent energy from the steam was routed to a spin a higher capacity alternator, then an electric motor could provide additional motivation.

Your thoughts?

Here's a link to discussions about the boiler & some of the other details

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/18674?frmtrk=cr4sd#newcomments

some of the big brains have mentioned the need for multi staging with different sizes of cylinders, which I tryed to address in my last post. probably have to insulate by removing the air flow from the engine compartment behind the radiator, which will probably be used as a condensor for the boiler feed water recycling.

Garthh,

You get the cupie doll. I was all exited this morning, getting ready to tell you about what I litterally dreamed up last night and bang, you burst my bubble.

I guess it's true. Great minds think alike and like to think.

I do have several of these cars so I can rob a head off one.

Junk is good.

It's not surprising, when you keep kicking the pile some things are just going to be easier than fabricating a bunch of special parts or spending money for solution that may not work.

Depending on your boiler pressure, you may want to figure a way to reduce the final drive ratio, which would allow your powerplant to run at lower rpms. something easy like much taller tires, switch some gears around in the trannie........

you may also be able to fool around with connecting rods & pistons from other toyota motors to change the volume of of the cylinders, so the secondary cylinders have less volume.

Thanks for the correction. I don't know what I did wrong.

A steam engine using direct drive will easily do 40-45 mph at 500 rpm, depending on the circumference of the tires. Drop the transmission except for a clutch and reverse gear and do a direct drive for all forward speeds. Use the throttle to control speed. The steam engine has the most torque at slow speed so starting from a dead stop is no problem. The only reason to keep the flywheel and clutch is to be able to reverse. That should solve the rep problem using solenoid valves.

Hello

Maybe I can help and simplify the process as well. I have buildt the contraption you are describing many, many, years ago. try using a straight 4 or 6 cylinder fuel injcted motor. run your steam outlet from the kettel into a makeshift fuel rail that deposits steam into the spark plug chamber. Pressure will build sufficently enough to move the piston and release excess ehaust. you may have to hand crank the engine (or use the starter) to get the engine started initally.

I was going to use a neuclear rod inside a box mounted externally on the engine itself and use a fuel pump to pump fresh cold water into the neuclear box and discharge the steam into the piston chamber and out the exhaust. However, I could not get my hands on a neucclear rod thus the plan was scrapped.....

Please use metal tubing for all steam lines. Hoses will blow and release scalding steam and Murphy's Law says it will happen when you are in the way.

Walt, Interesting concept. I saw it done once with a 1968 Triumph Spitfire. The owner took out the spark plugs, and replaced them with injectors (remember 1968, carburetors not fuel injection) then in the trunk (or boot) he installed a small high pressure boiler (I believe it was salvaged from a tar roofing company) and fed the output of the boiler through the injectors. The valve train of the engine performed normally and the engine produced (according to the Popular Mechanics article) .95 gs acceleration. Pretty impressive. The only real flies in the ointment were, 1) the vehicle weight increased by nearly 500 kilos, and (2 he was burning propane. Oh yes, no more trunk.

But still an interesting design

Dragon

There are a lot of seemingly good ideas so far. I will add my two cents worth. Ingersoll Rand ARO division sells pneumatic valves that are operated by either air pressure or electric solenoids, or both. I have had very good luck with their Alpha style. They are available in many designs and flow rates. I usually use five ported designs. They allow many plumbing possibilities. One valve could allow pressure in while in one position and exhaust out when in the other position and never allowing the two to cross paths. I think with the piston sizes you will have I would try to send steam into the spark plug hole through a common metal tube. Exhaust could be out through intake to another intake port. Then pressurized again from the spark plug hole. The idea posted for using solenoids operated by electricity would be lots easier to do than trying to synchronize the mechanicals. Drag an old pick up out of a Chrysler distributer use the Chrysler control module to trigger the steam solenoids. Mount the pickup on a tin plate near the flywheel or harmonic balancer in front. Glue or bolt a piece of steel to pass the pickup when you want the solenoid to cycle. Use as many of these as you need for each solenoid. (get the solenoids that are not spring return) You could get the project started on one or two cylinders at first to get your feet wet. Good luck and keep us posted.

I think the TT is perfect for use with steam. Everyone who's down on it says it is because of the rotor discs warping at high temperature, but they are trying to use it as an internal combustion engine at 1500 deg F and above. Even 500 deg F steam should have no effect on most steels or even on some other alloys. To run a generator it is ideal. Consider using a fueled boiler at night. Anyone with a decent machine shop can build one. Getting the details will take a bit longer. I would be interested in any progress you make on one.

You will probably have to invest more time on the steam supply to run your projected modification of an ICE to operate on steam or have an engine with nothing to operate it!

How a Stanley Steamer Works

The above site has many linked pages. It will be profitable to search all of them.

The boiler and its peripherals are more extensive than you are aware of. The Steam Engine driving the wheels and generator is almost negligible in comparison.

In the mid to late 1930's I heard a man who owned and operated one at the time tell of driving downtown on Roosevelt Road and being sneered at by a snob with a late model auto. He made a point of turning off where he had to go several city blocks out of his way to get back on Roosevelt Road. They were surprised at the second stop light to find him in front of them. It was a real racer. It was said that NO ONE had ever held the throttle wide open to full speed on an open road!

This impresses me as a hobby sort of thing. For fun let us fill the gas tank with water and heat it up to feed the ICE sans sparkplugs, and see what happens sort of puzzle. Garth is familiar with fuels for diesel engines. Of course they are obsolete in comparison to turbines. The Bill Lear bus engine turbine engines were dependent on short flash fluids he commissioned from chemists to make the bus steam engine work sensibly.

-At least as far as I remember.

Fun to see Hari and Garth interested in this.

of engines laying around there may still be some train engines that operate by steam from boiler to wheel motive flywheel cam transfer of force for turns.

The trains did move from steam to diesel electric which is best replicated as steam turbine to electric on hot ground.

IC system engines without hotplugs and closed for compression valve venting back to boiler would imply Diesel designed engines over Petol designed engines, and steam engines may well be best as turbines.

What is the best electric motor? Electric motors that make electricity from cheaper materials are of interest to me.

one of my favorite engines is the R2800 Pratt and Whitney used on the DC6.

Cyclone was another foundational design.

P&W 1830 was the engine of the B 17.

Turbines do work longer with more abuse than anything like the Stirling, or IC sorts of engines. The move to jet engines in Aviation does recommend turbines, and the steam power for IC sorts is a fun hobby to contemplate if you have them laying around and time on your hands.

Transcendian-

"there may still be some train engines that operate by steam from boiler to wheel motive flywheel cam transfer of force" and there is a Swiss locomotive company that is now making steam locomotives the right way and they are even more efficient than diesel-electrics. Steam turbines are used in electrical generation because they are heavy and require superheated dry steam, which is not the best choice for a vehicle to be operated by the general public. Lynx Steam, Cyclone, Quasiturbine, Lysholm expanders, the Green Steam Engine and the Tesla Turbine are all good possibilities for powering a car. Sometime you just work with what you have and it is possible to make do with a less than ideal conversion of an IC engine.

"Electric motors that make electricity from cheaper materials are of interest to me." I always thought electric motors used electricity or regenerated it from excess motion. I don't know of an electric motor that makes electricity from a cheaper source.

P&W 1830, ah yes, twin row radial, they used one to power the Thunderbolt. A radial engine provides rotary power too. Too bad they are all too big for use in autos as steam engines to run generators, but locomotives, now that is a possibility. A radial piston steam engine with an uneven number of cylinders would never have all pistons at top dead center and would always start itself.

Please do some research on steam and then you might have a better understanding of the concept.

I am working on using a V-6 or V-8 aluminum Chevy block with one cylinder bank cut off at the bottom of the water jacket ,then weld a plate on to support steam cylinders with the cross head pistons to separate the ICE oil system. Water would first circulate through the remaining internal combustion cylinder block half and head for cooling, then through a coil in the exhaust to produce the steam. I am building the exhaust steam generator now while I look for a suitable engine block, there has to be a blown up aluminum Chevy race engine block somewhere ,with cylinder damage on one side that makes it unusable for racing. In the trucking business we had air compressors on the tire repair trucks that consisted of a Buick V-6, where half the gas engine drove the other cylinder bank as the air compressor.

"Water would first circulate through the remaining internal combustion cylinder block half and head for cooling, then through a coil in the exhaust to produce the steam. I am building the exhaust steam generator NOW....."

What other source of steam will be used???

If additional heat was required to produce a sufficient amount of steam, then an additional burner would be fitted downstream of the exhaust heat exchanger. I am trying to extract as much heat as possible out of the fuel currently being used, before adding "more fuel to the fire".

I would think that it would be best to keep the engine block, at least the cylinders, as close to the same temperature as the incoming steam. All cooling of the steam should be done after it has done its work, as it goes to the condenser. I would even insulate the engine to help keep it hot. Try a Lamont water-tube boiler, you may have to fabricate your own, to keep the size down and the steam production high. It is also a safe design which has been used before.

You will still have a problem with water in the oil and may have to use a separator. There are some water based lubricants, I seem to recall hearing of, which may work.

Look up the Green Steam Engine and if you have a machine shop it may be more practical to simply build one from scratch. Also look at the Tesla Turbine, also easily homebuilt. Salvage the battery pack and electric motor from a wrecked hybrid and use the steam engine to run a generator. The charge from the grid can run the car a ways on just electric power while the steam engine gets up to power it when needed.

beesidemeusa@yahoo.co.uk - has an idea similar to this and has collected some info that may be interesting, just e-mail about "steam-electric hybrid".

I have been reading what you're attempting to do but more so what suggestions and help you get. I have to finish the final writeup for an IC engine that would be ideal for what you want to do. All you have to do is figure out how you produce steam, volume , pressure control etc. etc. and how you handle exhaust leaving it after first or second stage.

No piston rods, valve stems or spring, just 3 moving parts. Volume of expansion chambers, same as you want to make out of an IC engine. To make this unit requires less work than converting an IC engine.

My investment would be the patent, yours to use it and sell it.

Interested? further info only over pivate e-mail

I'll throw this out.

2 months ago I purchased a hot water/wet steam add on unit. runs on diesel 120volt the electric is for the blower & ignition system. The basic specs are 3gpm 3000psi 250 degree water. Running full blast the burner runs 2/3 of the time. I'm not sure how much more temprature/pressure you can run through schedule #80 pipe that the heat exchanger is made of.

here's a link: http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200016124_200016124?cm_sp=Customer%20driven-_-Recently%20Viewed-_-Search%20Page

this thing is adjustable so other fuels could be used. Diesel burns real clean, no visable smoke & very little fumes!

I saw a 12volt version but can't remember where.

Northern Tool is a dangerous catalog to have...Too many cool things to modify and adapt !

Johann Vondrus "No piston rods, valve stems or spring, just 3 moving parts. Volume of expansion chambers, same as you want to make out of an IC engine. To make this unit requires less work than converting an IC engine."

Do you affirm that this steam engine has ONLY 3 MOVING PARTS and has a means of using the mechanical output?

Three (3) moving parts seem to be too few parts to constitute a useful mechanism of any type or design!

Affirmative.

Yes and yes

WHY, a steam turbine has only one moving part. My unit has 6 expansion chambers per rev. is smaller than any 4 cylinder IC engine and still has only 3 moving parts. Expansion chamber volume can be made to equal any IC engine cylinder volume.

Does that answer your question Sterling.

Johann: I'll take it as you stated.

I will be looking forward to your obtaining financial assistance and a patent so that you can post the details for our amazement and amusement.

Sterling, I don't know how old you are , but I remember a story from 1944 1945

American pilots saw a plane flying by ( Italy)without props and reported it to the commander ( Washington). after extensive questioning , he was put in the LOONY BIN.

I have serged the patent office on rotary engines, all complicated, nothing comes close to my 3 moving part system. Now you can start laughing when I tell you it can be used as a pump ( liquid or air) , steam power plant and IC combustion engine.

Valving on all the same , fuel injector and ignition system extra.

now you can fall off the chair laughing.

Dear Johann, your design sounds remarkably (try nearly identical to) Nikola Tesla's design for his turbine engine. (patented 1911) It too was an engine, a pump, a vacuum exhauster and an air compressor. The major difference was that his had only one moving part. Plus it produced 5 h.p. per lb. weight of the engine.

I wish you success. Dragon

Dragon, re-figure my numbers.

a 3 in dia piston appr. 7 in squ , apply 500 lbs steam pressure = 3500 # force on that piston, but , as piston volume increases force decreases, as connecting rod changes angle torque increases, so the 500 # force never reaches it's full potential.

Let me know if you agree or disagree.

Now let's look at my system.

Same steam pressure, same squ in area. but the 3500 #force is applied some distance away from the center of the drive shaft ( can't tell you exactly how) so now we have

force X distance = torque , which is not the case in a piston and connecting rod system .

Weight would be much less than any IC engine modified

Old enough to remember the election of FDR. Missed that particular story of WWII era.

"Now you can start laughing when I tell you it can be used as a pump ( liquid or air) , steam power plant and IC combustion engine."

Ha. That brings to mind a bladeless machine!

Is that bladeless machine similar to the muffler bearing in a 220v bucket?

Nope, Stacked plates perpendicular to the shaft with spokes from the shaft to the plates. Fluid comes in at the edges like a turbo turbine and leave the center, only the plates are close enough to use surface drag to turn the plates.

Brad

U V - This is a design I think is especially well adaptable to steam and electrical generation and does not require superheated dry steam like bladed turbines. It can also be fabricated by any competent machinist. I wish I were able to do it, but no $, no machine shop and two left thumbs prevent me. Some make fun of the design because the rotors can warp at high temperatures and they insist it must be used as an IC engine or with extremely high temperature steam, because bladed turbines require that.

Unfortunately there is no company building them either, just a group of amateurs.

Very true.

The efficiency is good, using 1910 tech it made 10 hp per lb. of rotating mass. Now who knows.

Put power to the output shaft and you have a efficient pump. Tesla used one for his office fan because it was so small everyone commented on its power.(bragging rights)

Also it accelerates smoothly even if you apply full power or pressure instantly.

It handles low pressure steam well because it don't pit from water droplets impacting the turbine.

I've designed a multi stage heat recirculating multi fuel jet engine using Tesla turbine tech. Hopefully someday I'll get a chance to make it.

Even have played with the idea of cupping the blades/plates to optimize certain uses.

Imagine my surprise when after studying many of Tesla's designs, I found out we share the same birthday (that book listed it 100 years to the hour but it was 5 years off). No he is not my hero, but he deserves a lot more credit than he gets.

Brad

U V. I didn't want to be obnoxious about the blade -blade design, it is complicated compared to a 3 moving part rotor design with direct force applied to the output shaft. You can ask why I haven't done anything about it? Filing for a patent is at the moment out of my reach but someday will do so.

Hey Johann, Try the "poor mans patent": send a letter to yourself and don't open it. The postmark tells the date.

Later, Blue

If you can't afford to defend it, a patent is worthless.

Right, ask the poor schlub who invented the intermittent windshield wiper what good his patent did when he had no money to protect it. Justice too often depends on $, rather than on doing what is right.

So, if I send an envelope with all the stuff in it to myself and go public with my idea how can I defend it if GM or Ford uses it. Once the idea is out in public you can't patent anymore and anybody can use it , no benefit there.