just general question

Unless they are on the higher levels of acedemia.

Other than that, for college level (BS) int the technical field, they may spend more time teaching, than learning new developments or new applications to current knowledge.

Without getting too indepth.

Have you graduated already, or are you still studying? If you've graduated, what are you working as? Because it appears that you think you know more than your teachers.

Why are you always picking on the education system? I have mentored some young engineers from India, the same country you came from, and I must say they're very intelligent and willing to learn. And they are the product of the same education system you are always whining about. IMHO, I cannot say that the Indian education system is at fault. My own college lecturer was from India, and he's absolutely brilliant. So I should say that the real problem lies not with the education system but with you, since you refuse to make the most of it.

For your information, teachers must keep current with what's required of them by the syllabus. And the syllabus is set by the government. So if you think your teachers are all ignoramuses for not being up to date, blame the politicians, particularly the Education Minister, not the teachers. They only teach what they are required to. One final thing, seeing your insistence on using meaningless abbreviations, is that why you're so upset with school? Because they demand that you to write whole coherent sentences and use proper punctuation, not mindless drivel like "y r skl tchrs so dmb n y mst i stdy wn i no nd skl 2 no tngs"

In SA and most other countries teachers are not allowed to teach anything not contained in the agreed curriculum set by the unit standard authorities of that country.

In SA they have to publish proposed changes and every citizen then have an opportunity to submit comments about it. The authorities then have to consider the comments before publishing the revised standards.

A teacher "educating" himself on the internet about all the "wonderful" ideas floating around is fortunately prevented from spreading falls information.

New developments may however need to be introduced after it has been weighed and tested. My advice to you to improve the system is to submit motivated proposals to the authorities setting out your proposed changes. The authorities can then consider and change where necessary.

As a test run you can start a thread on CR4 and see what happens. What do you want them to teach you?

thanks for giving me this idea of using cr4 let me see wat happens its not for me its for us we need a feel in wat v r studying rather of studying it only for exams particularly in enggineering v should feel the depth of the subject rather telling stories and studying unwanted things without logic

I'm glad DVader100 informed us that you are from India! Which teachers are you referring to? In my experience, both in the USA and abroad, the vast majority of teachers try very hard to keep up-to-date, but good teachers in K-12 (pre-college/university) are so busy planning, teaching, correcting papers, meeting with parents, etc. that they have no time left to keep up-to-date.

I get the impression that you learned your 'English', either from the internet or from a teacher who did not really speak English! But keep learning... Your English is better than my Hindi (or whatever your native language may be).

So dear ragavan you're back again with your complaints on improper education system that you are going through. It was your statements against, if i remember right, Mr. D. RAMAKRISHNA NAIDU under 'Education' which created an unnecessarily long thread. Sure you have not learnt anything still.

DVader1000 has replied you very well and I would like to add that I too am a product of the education system that you love to hate and have achieved reasonable success in my engineering field. Personally, I feel that you do not like to get involved in what is being taught to you and are jumping for conclusions. Remember one thing dear, in schools and colleges you are taught the basics which have been developed over many years of committed analysis from eminent scholars and it is the best way to prepare a student for his or her future. There could be instances where a particular teacher is not up to date on a particular topic in which you have researched more but that does not mean that the teacher is not fit for the job. I presume from what you have been mentioning that you are now in your final year of engineering. Well, if that is the case, then there are two conclusions that I can derive out for you: 1) You have missed on the basics and 2) You are an extremely researched guy in some particular field and has got a lot to tell to the world and you could be our next Einstein. But do remember, Albert Einstein too attended a proper school and learnt the basics taught to him there.

All the best.

thanks for ur advice ur also a product of the education system but onething i want to ask do u remember anything which u studied in engg don't say that u learned basics remember onething sir i'm too young to tell this but still u should not learn engg u should feel engg which u feel in ur profession but then y we are wating time and money in college then we can learn only basics then y confusing all the subjects . onething i'm clear with most of the staff members are there for welfare of their family not for us . again i repeat most of the people i also met few staffs whom u r mentioning.so plz understand the situation as a student who joined engg as an aim and achievement but now i feel y i joined this

You know what? You hate studying so much, QUIT SCHOOL!!!! Nobody's forcing you to study. Just stop wasting your parents' hard-earned money blaming everything and everyone around you for your own failure to make the most of your education. You think you can get a good job without an education, go for it. If you think you can do a better job than your teachers or the government schools, put your money where your mouth is and open a private school instead of bitching to everyone here about it.

If you think you can submit a resume made up of all the meaningless drivel you call writing, go ahead and do it, and see how many employers will actually call you. Whatever you want to do, just take responsibility for your own life and do it instead of coming here and complaining about problems of your own making. Nobody here, or in the Indian education system, is at fault for your failings; only you are. Just look at how you write. If you're too lazy to even write coherently, you're definitely to lazy to attempt serious study.

Everyone at CR4 is always willing to help those who ask for it, but it's not our duty to pander to whiny, selfish, immature brats who blame everything for their problems when it is their own fault for refusing to make the most of their education. You have a problem, bring it up, and we'll try to help you solve it, but if you want to whine about what a lousy education system you have to suffer when it is the education system that has to suffer a lazy jerk like you, go find another audience. We're not here to be your punching bag. So either take responsibility for your own life and deal with your own problems, or continue being the loser that you're proving to everyone that you are.

R u an indian u whom indians are don't blabber from the place where u r and don't try to just post the reply it won't help anyone only thing u can increase ur posts so don't think u r smart enough to answer all the question ok just use ur mind and think then reply

I'm not Indian, but I have worked with Indian engineers, and they're brilliant. They certainly don't show the "everyone's at fault but me" attitude you are. You want to complain, do it elsewhere. Here, we try to solve problems. Since you hate school, quit. As for not thinking before I post, why don't you rebut my criticisms if they're as illogical and unthinking as you say they are. Just take responsibility for your own life instead of blaming others for your own failings.

GA by the way, Capri.

i didn't say indian enggineers are bad read the post fully indians are brilliant that v know very well

The Indian engineers I work with are the product of the same education system you keep complaining about, only thing is that they don't whine about its limitations. Instead, they work around it and make the most of it. If they can succeed, why can't you? The only difference is because they make an effort to do well, not blame the system for their own failings. And they certainly make an effort to write coherently, so you might want to learn something from them.

"...they certainly make an effort to write coherently"

AMEN! (and to everything you've said in your last several posts)

Ragavan: Educated people writing in English use a capital letter at the beginning of each sentence, write whole words, and finish each sentence with an appropriate punctuation mark. Your writing looks like a teenager texting on his/her cellpnone. Those of us who are older than cellphones have to work rather hard to translate your abbreviations into whole words in order to understand the sentence. For me, at least, that means reading your gibberish several times to figure out where your sentences start and end, then what you mean by your abbreviations, etc.

English is indeed my first language, but I've been speaking a second language (Spanish) for over 40 years. I know very well the effort required to learn and speak a second language, and especially to write in that second language. I still keep my dictionary handy, and make every effort to write correct and understandable sentences. Please do the same!

So you are back again to pick on Ragavan!!

It is obvious that you are missing the forest for the wood.Ragavan is not whining-he is expressing his dissatisfaction with the "Teachers" who are unable to corelate theory to reality (the real life world) in which he is expected to practice engineering immediately after graduation.How are they preparing students for the "future"? Isn't this their primary responsibility?

For your information, he's an innovative engineer, having developed a two-stroke engine with valve (in lieu of the usual exhaust port) on his own motor cycle (in his third year of Diploma engineering before joining graduate engineering course) and has been saving fuel getting 40 kmpl instead of usual 18 kmpl (an improvement of 122%!!).Incidentally, the arrangement also reduces emissions substantially, as you must be aware of the limitations of two stroke engines.

You are passing judgements on him based on his linguistic ability in english, at best a foreign language!

Have you got anything equivalent to this with your "superiority" from this same educational system?

With regard to your "appreciation" of Dvader1000 or whoever, not knowing that abusiveness ill becomes an "educated" person.The mark of being truly educated is to realise how much there is yet to be known and our own severe limitations. This is the humility expected of an educated person- and this gives the ability to know more.

I have noticed that arrogance is the underlying theme of the cognoscenti-petty-mindedness preying on hapless ones who show courage in venturing their opinions for validation or otherwise, despite their linguistic short comings.

It is this very education system which does not demand linguistic proficiency before it admits students into engineering as a pre-requisite and depends solely on marks as criteria, which Ragavan is "Whining" about.

Since you have taken my name, I am compelled to reply and it is wholly unbecoming of you (a mediocre product of this system) to do so behind my back.

D.Ramakrishna Naidu

Mr. D. Ramakrishna Naidu,

Initially I thought of ignoring your remarks but then, I thought to ask you to go through my post in response to Ragavan's, once again.

You will find that my assessment of his capabilities hit Bulls eye as I clearly stated "2) You are an extremely researched guy in some particular field and has got a lot to tell to the world and you could be our next Einstein." I realise, by your response that he has achieved something remarkable by modifying his Mo-bike. I also realise that I was not very far with my first assessment too.

Knowledge is unending and perfection is never achieved and when I say this, it means that no one should rest on laurels of past but iron out the shortcomings in all arenas including linguistics (my schooling too was not in English). Referring to your name in my post was not with an intention to maligning yours or Ragavans name and in case it has hurt you, I apologise. Humility is beginning of wisdom and I feel that it has become very important in the present day circumstances. As regards to my mediocrity, I just do not believe in bragging to receive accolades and I will remain silent to sound less arrogant and acrimonous.

Thank you.

I am working on Ragavan's linguistic (English language) abilities and this may take sometime.One of the methods adopted is to "Learn by doing", which is what he's doing on CR4.Practice makes perfection.As important as "Ideation" is, ability to express the ideas for others' comprehension is vital.

We are sure you'll agree that Learning to cycle,swim,fly, climb mountains, Public speaking all come about by overcoming basic fear and actually doing.

Leaving aside any inhibitions, we would like to know about your achievements.

Regards

D.Ramakrishna Naidu and Srinivasa Ragavan

Dear Mr. Naidu,

I understand that you are teaching Ragavan English. If it is true, I would request you to desist from postings in these columns as this is NOT the right place for these kinds of experiments and trials and actually presents a wrong picture of our country.

By the way, if Ragavan has modified a Mo-bike which is now giving 44KMs/ltr instead of 18, I think it is not a big deal as now there are bikes in the market which claim to give more than 100KMs/ltr.

I feel there is something seriously wrong and I am signing off from this thread.

"By the way, if Ragavan has modified a Mo-bike which is now giving 44KMs/ltr instead of 18, I think it is not a big deal as now there are bikes in the market which claim to give more than 100KMs/ltr."

Dear Capri,

it is 40 Kmpl vs 18 Kmpl, not 44.The bikes that you refer to are 4-stroke, not 2-stroke types and that too under lab conditions.The bike modified is a 2-stroke type and these far outweighed the 4-stroke numbers when it was developed and hence it is a significant contribution in many ways to our country.

This picture far outweighs any skewed views being brought about by your remarks.

You may please let us know your significant achievements without side stepping that request.

I have brought sufficient name for the country by being at least 20 years ahead of the world in my own domain-viz. force exponentiation of Naval warfare, hence you need not worry about these "experiments and trials" as part of bringing up a capable Indian engineer.He has borne sufficient humiliation and instead of being pro-actively alleviating, you are being negatively reactive with some false notion of trying to please some alien "intelligentia" which has brought about global warming and the global financial meltdown in the name of "Civilisation".

Regards

D.ramakrishna Naidu

Mr.capri,

I thought you are a good engineer because of seeing you in this forum but you proved that you are not enough to sustain as such,because of your brilliant reply, I will tell only example which you stated to me One kilogram of scrap costs Rs 10 but one kilogram of slug costs Rs 100 you are telling that both are metal why is this cost difference??

I think you seem to have misunderstood what I am really telling Ragavan. So maybe he's brilliant. So maybe he's really smarter than his teachers. What I'm really saying is, other engineers from India have worked their way around the limitations of the education system, so why can't he? As for voicing his dissatisfaction with the system, what exactly does he expect any of us to do about it? None of us is the Indian Education Minister, so there's absolutely nothing any of us can do about it. He has practical problems he can't solve, we'll help him, but all he wants is to complain nonstop about something none of us has any control over. That's why I told him to either quit school or start his own private school if he thinks he can do better.

Of course I was very harsh towards him; it's about time he accepts that the world isn't perfect and move on. I myself am pissed off with a lot of things in my country, but I don't come here to whine about it to a whole bunch of complete strangers. The example I gave of the elitist education system I have in my country (Singapore, by the way) is to show that even the supposedly very good education systems are flawed. So too are my comments about preferring apprentices who do not come through the elite education system; these kids accept their own limitations and learn from their experienced seniors, an attitude the elite kids are sorely lacking in, and unfortunately, an attitude that Ragavan himself shows that he lacks.

With regards to your statement that "he is expressing his dissatisfaction with the "Teachers" who are unable to corelate theory to reality (the real life world) in which he is expected to practice engineering immediately after graduation", isn't that what apprenticeship is for? For the trainee to pick up real world skills from experienced staff? Isn't school just the foundation to build on? As for my criticizing his writing, what I'm criticizing is the incoherence, and the obvious implications of laziness, of his postings. How many people here can honestly say they can understand what he's writing at first reading? Nor can anybody say that Indians have poor English; just look at your own or Capri's writing.

Finally, I never said I'm perfect. In fact, I regularly write in here to ask for advice from others, because they are far more intelligent than I am. The reverence I have for my college professor , a product of the "failed" Indian education system that you and him both detest so much, as expressed in my first posting is ample proof that I hold those superior to me in respect. However, here he is complaining about how backward the system is, since he says that teachers don't follow the latest discoveries on the Internet. What latest discoveries is he referring to? There are all too many hoaxes and scams on the net; is this what he's referring to? Because if it is, it's just as well that the teachers don't keep up to date: the last thing the world needs are engineers that can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

Maybe you should stop being so protective towards him and have a really good talk with him to try and knock some sense into him instead. Since you're his mentor, perhaps you should take him in hand and teach him some self-discipline.

Thank you for your cogent reply.

Please allow me to share a simple secret: The vast majority of engineering teachers have no idea or concept of what is "Engineering" (a verb and not a noun)!! It is something to do with ingenuity. The french word "Ingenoire"- a person who uses ingenuity (in any field) is an "Engineer".

In a course on engineering, we get a vast knowledge base with associated theory, peppered with mathematical expressions.The Teacher has to correlate this with day to day visible phenomena to "fix" the knowledge making it meaniningful and carry the authority of own accomplishment to validate it all.

I am happy to inform you that a number of suggetions for improvement of the engineering education in India have been taken up and over the medium term, we can see more of real engineers coming off the system.

With regard to your other points, shall certainly ADAPT and ADOPT.

Regards

D.Ramakrishna Naidu and Srinivasa Ragavan

Teachers. Just like anything it seems only the very best or the very worst gain attention. Generally they are just mediocre.

My kids are in elementary school in Ontario, Canada. From k-8 they seem to be a well intentioned bunch of babysitters. It's almost like they are brain washed by their education to believe they are so very important and a benchmark for the future of society. It's ironic how the kids today come out with a less functional education than was available 30 years ago (or more).

I'm confused why my children spend more time watching movies during the week (features not educational) than working on their spelling or their math.

It's frustrating but it's just another topic where government and unions are screwing the average family.

"They have to stop blaming the establishment, and start doing for themselves."

My sentiments exactly. That's exactly what I've been trying to knock into Ragavan's thick head with my last few posts. I know the education system is flawed; every country's is, but then again, what system is perfect? If you want to succeed, you work your way around the system's flaws, not whine to everyone about it without making any effort of your own.

I come from a country that produces students that regularly win international academic olympiads. You would think that the students would be brilliant then, wouldn't you? Well, yes and no. My country's education system is elitist. A select handful, mostly from wealthy, politically-connected elite families, are hothoused and groomed for future national leadership, while the rest have to fend for themselves. But does that mean that the elite kids are brilliant? Alas, only academically; socially, they're a bunch of selfish, dysfunctional brats. We even had one, a Member of Parliament's daughter, telling working class people to "get out of her elite, uncaring face", and she's got a scholarship in social welfare!!!! And when it comes to work, these brats are hopeless. Academically brilliant they may be, but they cannot apply even the most basic of their education. Last year I mentored such a kid who couldn't even find the CG of a length of pipe. And he's a mechanical engineering student!!!! If anyone here thought I was being very harsh, even nasty, to Ragavan, you should have seen how I reprimanded this kid. Let's just say he went on two days medical leave after that.

Actually, I prefer the kids who don't go through the elite education system, because they are willing to learn, not regard their seniors as inferior because they did not go through the elite education system. They are aware of the limitations that they face, so they strive to work harder. They possess the most important factor of all: the hunger to overcome their limitations and the limitations of the education they receive to succeed in the world. And that's the most important lesson of all that the Ragavans of the world should do well to learn.

"They have to stop blaming the establishment, and start doing for themselves."

I strongly disagree. This only leaves the establishment to continue as is. We pay for this financially and socially. We must push to make it better. To make use of it to it's fullest. It's like the vote. It's our duty, both to our society and our children.

Our society has some very simple basics. And one of these is our education system. Allowing teachers hold the rest of society hostage with "professional development" days, low instruction time and ridiculous benefits (including salaries) is simply wrong.

Why should every family in the school district bend over backwards so that teachers can have a Friday for "development"?

Why should some kid out of teachers college make $85,000 per year to teach when even her own mother says she hates children?

Why should we have to put up with their excuses why our children are not doing well in a subject when they watch movies or spend computer time playing online games in their 4 hours of daily instruction time?

Many of my peers chose teaching. It was simply because they had no idea what else to do. Teaching is like welfare for the educated. But can you blame the teachers? Yes you can. It's their unions that have created this system. I just hope it crashes like the auto industry has.

gdevine;

"They have to stop blaming the establishment, and start doing for themselves."

I strongly disagree.

Interesting that you go on to saying things I agree with.

By this I mean, not bitching or throw money at the system, to settle the few complaining they don't have enough resources.

I mean doing something. What my family did is transfered their children to a Lutheran Parochial school. Smaller, Yes. Less resources, yes, (but it has its strengths, I'll explain later) quality of education, satisfied.

The may not have the resources, but when they are intergrated into the public school system, when something may happen, lets say, computer system goes down, that they can't do their research for a paper. Kids that were in the systems all their lives, complain, its too hard, they can't work........and the excuses go on.........The intergrated students, that never really had this great technological resources, what did they do, I'll tell you what did. They went to the library and picked up a book.

It taught them to be resourceful, creative, and instead of crying or complaining, they play the hand thats dealt to them the best way they can, they don't fold and cry. so to speak.

phoenix911

I retired from teaching over 13 years ago, at the earliest possible time. I had taught for 32 years. At first teaching was great; nearly all of the students were eager to learn, we could discipline or get rid of those who weren't, and for the most part, parents would support us. But over time, it went rapidly downhill: fewer and fewer students care to learn, teachers can't discipline those who don't, they are expected to teach everyone, regardless of interest or ability, and many parents have become an adversary rather than a supporter.

Perhaps the worst thing is that in so many schools they have eliminated shops, music, art, and the like, leaving nothing but academics. Even as a mature adult, I have to break up my academic work with other things...

The system has forced teachers to become entertainers, not educators - that's why I got out as soon as I could: I was an educator, not an entertainer. Since I retired from teaching, I've been doing aerospasce engineering, getting at least as much satisfaction, and waaay less stress than teaching.

I see it being systemic. Those teachers who did care have to fight both sides… parents and the system.

Your point of being an "entertainer" hits the mark.

It's the children who loose. Especially if their parents haven't had the advantage of a good education.

Yes and no.

Teachers here in the Philippines usually don't have time to stay updated during the school year. Once summer vacation comes in, they go to seminars and trainings to keep them up to date.

There are those, however, who teach only what they learned to teach when they were still in college. A few of my teacher friends (the 40 and above ones) don't know how to use computers.

Some of them are intimidated because they think it's too complicated for them to understand.

Some just don't care to learn because they think they don't need to.

Some think they don't have the time.

Some don't bother because their students can't afford computers anyway.

One 50ish teacher, however, knows quite a bit about computers and the internet. She regularly gives her students things to research. A few times a month she engages them in a freewheeling discussion on anything her students find on the internet. Her only regret is that with so much to learn, she cannot hope to teach her students everything. So, she just tries to teach them the basics and, at the same time, instill a sense of wonder and hunger for learning that she hopes they will carry with them until they are good and old.

regards,

Vulcan