Hurricane Rescue Vehicle for New Orleans?

It could also be transported by a C5.

great idea.. hadn't thought of that!

On another thread about offroad mud vehicles, this company's products came up. I think that it represents innovative thinking about extreme wet surfaces as well.

Chris

So I think the first requirement is to be able to operate and rescue in a severely flooded urban environment.

Traditional offroad vehicles are simply not designed to deal with it.

Nor are traditional rescue vehicles.

and there aren't enough amphibious vehicles around when you need them. or they simply aren't equipped to do the job.

This one comes closer. but again.. to little too late.

Great, but can't get into the urban enviroment.

So I think that hovercraft are good.. but aren't going to do as well in Hurricane force winds, and won't be able to deal with severe wreckage. The would be able to deal with faster water I think.

Can a semi-submersible hover-train with additional tractor belts or screws be made?

I think such a vehicle has to be able to deal with all kinds of water.. so it is the kind of thing that would be able to play on white water like it was born to it, but be able to crawl over extreme terrain and wreckage, and also be relatively immune to extreme high winds? What else is out there that meets this extreme set of requirements?

Chris

GA

Are you just making fun of my run on sentences?

Hi bwire,

1. Good Idea.

2. Good Idea.

3. Good Idea

* This structure I'm proposing is based on the Pelamis structure, which is currently the most popular for Harnessing wave action in the ocean. However, I'm willing to look at ANY design that meets the criteria.

Now let's suppose that people are stubborn, and don't like planning, and don't like spending money on things they don't absolutely have to. That means to me that this will happen again, somewhere in the world. I know there are people in NO who are thinking up ways to turn their houses into arks when the floods come again.. so I'm not being the most unrealistic. This will happen again; people will not be prepared; and dual purpose vehicles are a way to amplify the economic viability. If we had a green energy source and plant to drive this thing, we'd have it all.

This isn't just for floods, although thats a particularly good application.. but I think if it is submersible, then there are large tanks onboard that get flooded to submerge. That means, as a land based firefighting vehicle, it has large tanks that can haul water over rough terrain, after picking it up at the local lake, and deliver it to exactly where its needed.. even if that is up a canyon in california, during an earthquake. In addition, if there are water pumps on board, it could spray a curtain of water on the fire, or wet the ground, not to mention what it could do with foam in that quantity.

I am perfectly aware that prevention and planning are the best most economical ways of dealing with disaster. Nobody likes disaster. However, human civilization has been going on for thousands of years, and there is still a Disaster-A-Day somewhere on the planet. Reality predicts that these disasters will most assuredly occur again. Hindsight is 20/20. I think it would be more appropriate to consider this a war, Man Against Nature. What will it take to get the job done, assuming that the war will continue? I live on the road that ambulances must take to get to the hospital, which is also a major thoroghfare in my city. Every day, many times a day, I hear police, fire, ambulance, and even the helicopter air ambulance rushing by, sirens wailing.. What we actually have is a Continuous Emergency, that just varies in scale.

This type of vehicle is simply a tool tasked to be able to respond in a given set of circumstances. (All Weather, All Terrain including Sub/Surface Water) Also, the fact that it is a train, made up of different carriages (of different applications) means that it is a scalable system, and can respond in some measure of applicability to the size of the emergency. I recommend that it be partly paid for by tourism/transporation or some other secondary application, but it is a tool that addresses the reality of disasters/continuous crisis. At least that is what I am trying to develop a specification for.

Chris

Applause

There is no easy answer to the problems that arose in N.O. The problems took years to to develop, and were only brought to the front page by the storm.

The evacuation system was there and not used. Why were the school busses flooded and not used? That city has many public transit busses as well as charter busses. The people of N O should have been evacuated earlier.

If the levee were to break or overflow tomorrow the answer to moving that many people is a Navy carrier group, supplemented by cruise ships.

Air boats, military vehicles, small boats, large trucks are what will shuttle people to improvised landing spots for the military choppers to bring the victims to the ships off shore.

Navigating the flooded streets is not the job for outsiders. The people that work those streets are the people that know where everything is, even if it is under water. Do you think the Pizza Hut delivery driver knows how to get around that city? What about the mail carriers, UPS drivers, law enforcement, fire and rescue personnel? These natives of NO need to guide the National Guard, FEMA, and Red Cross people that come in.

After Andrew visited So Fla, residents of the areas could not find their own street. The names and numbers of streets as well as building addresses had to be painted on streets and buildings.

There has to be a plan. There was no workable plan for what happened in New Orleans. THAT was the first disaster.

If you want to see what a workable plan looks like, look in the Hudson River. Those people were picked up by civilians. That was the sightseeing ferries that got there. The Fire rescue boats were smaller units at first, and only sent some brave cold people into that airplane to look for any additional people.

That was a plan that worked because it was in place, and practiced.

I have the greatest respect for the pilot, flight crew, police and fire rescue personnel and all of the boat crews that ALL did the best they could.

Thank you bob.

I respect and believe everything you are saying GA.

Still as far as this vehicle idea goes, I would like to continue to explore it. The better the tools one has to do the job, the better it can be done. Especially if those vehicles are at hand, and the pizza driver is trained to use it.. because his other job is using the dual purpose equipment to tour people around. Over in Holland and Venice, the roads Are the waterways.. For a city that is below sea level, I think maybe a few streets there ought to be canals instead. This would enable the use of of dual use tour boats as rescue vehicles, and have them on hand.

Chris

Many cities have tour entrepreneurs using these

Ride The Ducks Vehicles and Hurricane Katrina

Our vehicles are not only the best and most proven design for amphibious sightseeing, but have also proved worthy in rescue missions. Ride The Ducks was the only amphibious tour operator/manufacturer to support the rescue and evacuation efforts in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. We immediately volunteered equipment, crew, and other resources in order to help evacuate hundreds of residents of the hardest-hit areas. Our team of volunteers was deemed "invaluable" by many involved in the rescue effort as our ducks were able to safely access and remove large numbers of people from areas inaccessible by other means. Not since Normandy have we been so proud of our Ducks-and our people.

This particular one is in Philadelphia. I think Boston has them also.

Excellent. GA. Thank you.

Is that when Manayunk flooded in 2006?

That photo was connected to the above verbage. I guess that is New Orleans.

Non sense

blaming the residents

here's a previous discussion

http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/5202#comment198675

Though the various renderings are cool, lots of good bench engineering flying about.

Paint it green and call it the latest green machine , add solar panels on top and you will be certified by the Obama Govt as worthy of a trillion or so dollars for the studies and future development of this neat gimmick. Insist that substations for recharging the batteries are powered by wind turbines and get another easy trillion thrown in to insure that we will have it weather or not it is really practical.

TMF

Toomuchfun,

Should this discussion be shut down because of you?

Of course not! It will be interesting to see just how big this thing must be to haul 20,000 or more fools out of that big sink hole, who waited until it was too late to save their homes again. It will be even more interesting to see how they save all of those " wait until the very last instant leavers " if the thing malfunctions out in the middle of Lake Ponchatrain. Please try to find a way to cause the "Thinker" to comprehend just why we the taxpayers of the whole nation should have our Govt. invest millions of dollars creating just another piece of equipment that will be out dated even before it gets off of the drawing board, to save people who don't have the common sense to get out of the way of another Katrina.

Why wouldn't it make more sense to surround the entire area with indestructible wind turbines connected to monstrous trash pumps to pump the water out as fast as it floods the entire area. After all this wind would be "Free Energy"!

TMF

totally true... except...it doesn't have to be a government run operation.. better if it isn't really. Thats my point, it should be a revenue generating system, in private hands, and therefore will be better maintained, better operated, and better trained. and fun, with live music and mardigras festival on board.

great idea on the pumping... seriously GA.

The next issue that surfaces for me Chris is just how much money the Govt will have to "grant" to the developers of such a system to have it be sustainable. I am thinking of such systems as the AMTRAC net work of people haulers that are renting our antiquated rail system.

I could readily see improvements made to a rail system that would transport food, goods and needed materials into such an area like that to assist those who were forced to stay behind, and to transport out those who were so foolish that they chose to remain in harms way in spite of having years to relocate to some other area less prone to destruction. At least such an improvement could be disguised as being needed by the Armed Forces in case were to be attacked by Venezuela or Columbia, or in case the Peoples Republic of Texas decided to secede again. I live in a State that is already spending billions of taxpayer dollars to support an entertainment industry through the construction of one of our nations most modern net works of highways and roads.

Other areas of the state regularly face budget reductions in their allocated state highway improvement grants as the result of enormous cost overruns around the greater Orlando area.

No doubt, that industry brings millions in tourist dollars into the state and the state takes a good whack at the proceeds though taxation, but the millions in profits, are never shared with the general public. Never has been and never will be. Somehow we all end up feeling like we are helping to support the tourist industry through our own local sacrifices. The Big Easy isn't any different.

TMF

Chris,

I don't think there is any privately owned public transportation anywhere in the US and maybe not anywhere in the world !

Private financed projects are to make money.

i.e. the prisons in Pennsylvania where the judges send kids who stole candy or spit on the street.

Publicly financed transport projects like AMTRAK are expected to cost more to operate then the incoming revenue. They are run to show US a better way.

When I left NYC (1975) there were still private bus transit lines. Green bus lines, and Triboro coach come to mind. My wife and I thought there was one called Queensboro coach lines also. I am not sure how private they were, but there were distinct differences between them, although they all seemed to act like stepchildren of the NYC transit authority.

I think the Grey Line still runs out to the airport. Tenuous, but part of the transportation infrastructure.

Otherwise as far as Chris's drawing of the Sea Train, it is of course nice to look at and a spur for thought.

I've been thinking about it, and wondering about propulsion and speed.

Far as I know the hydrofoil offers the highest speeds, but at high costs.

In an interest of reducing drag, and increasing speed, could you make a hydrofoil pontoon sort of air filled lift for the Sea Train, and then propel it with alcohol burning aircraft engines?

Now many of us have taken a ferry. In NYC if you don't have much money, or even if you do, it is a fun day to take the Staten Island Ferry to Staten Island, and back.

Imagine this: Pier to Pier side loaded no aisle SeaTrain with inflatable and deflatable hydrofoils, faster, for the trips between Staten Island and Manhattan, or Manhattan and New Jersey, or say Buffalo and Toronto?

(The reason I'm wondering about inflatable hydrofoil is partly to do with attempting to figure how to achieve lift, and reduce drag, and then allow for emergency situations when hull draw in the depth of water would preclude more than 3 to 1 and a half feet of draw.)

On a standard train car, or plane about a third of the space is used for aisles. Say you eliminate aisles and all entrance and exit from the vehicle is from clamshell doors? Then you could cut weight and make the thing thinner. Thinner and lighter would require less thrust, and you could make it faster.

As far as when Katrina happened to New Orleans, I felt that not enough inflatable boats like the Zodiacs were employed. As far as fast boats that are relatively easy to transport by Trains, Planes, or Trucks, they seemed missing during that event.

There is a small boat design that is used by the Coast Guard. It is a rigid hull inflatable. The hull is double wall. When the boat is at speed, the nose rises up out of the water, the entire hull then rises up out as speed increases, causing the inner hull to empty from holes that are in the back of the boat. The holes are below the water line when the boat is at rest, but above the water line when on plane. When the boat is at rest, the inner hull fills until the inflatable air chambers resist the sinking action. This provides a very low, stable platform for doing rescue work from the water. But when driven, the boat rises up out of the water, and rides on just the outer hull and can achieve good speed.

Fort Lauderdale Airport has one about 18 ft long with flotation devices for over 200 people. It is powered by twin 115 hp outboard engines. It would be a better boat with a jet drive propulsion system, if it were needed for shallow water rescues.

If the flood-able inner hull could be left un flooded, by switchable valves on the flood holes, it would be able to operate in shallower water also.

I do think the air boats, and small (12-18ft) hovercraft that are sold commercially would be the best for search and rescue work. Many areas have organized air-boat owners associations, that are ready, willing, and able to perform these tasks.

Fort Lauderdale Airport has one about 18 ft long with flotation devices for over 200 people.

I take it the role here is to send the boat out loaded with many floatation devices and distribute them to people waiting for rescue? How many people can be carried in the 18 footer?

There is a small boat design that is used by the Coast Guard. It is a rigid hull inflatable.

Is this another model on lines of the small life raft/boarding craft used by Canadian coast guard? They are bright orange and other than small size, fit the description - these things fly through ocean and are pretty stable afaik (the seas up here are intimidating to warm blooded mammals - with notable exceptions).

Included in the design of the boat is a spool of 1\2" rope that is roughly 3 ft wide, and 2.5 ft around. It is to be attached to the flotation device before sending it overboard. Then the boat would go to the next area of people, while letting the rope unroll, attach another flotation device, and throw overboard. The flotation devices are mostly 50 person rafts. The plan is to provide flotation for the people until vessels of sufficient size can arrive to remove the survivors from the water.

The boat we have would be hard pressed to put more than10 additional people on it. And that would be only under emergency conditions. That boat is only designed to provide flotation capability until the other boats can arrive.

The small size of the boat allows for quicker deployment.

There is no shortage of boats to the east. The problem is the inland water that lies under the flight path to the west. Many large man-made lakes, with no ocean access.

If needed, this boat can drag the flotation devices to the water's edge, to allow removal of the people from the water.

it doesn't have to be a government run operation.. better if it isn't

That way it might actually show up in time to be of service...

Howzzat

A rescue vehicle saying cool while it does the job. At least the color blind will not have a problem with it. Not sure if this is off topic but who is counting?

See Ya's, Ky.

now that is seriously cool!

While KY may have a great paint design, I would like to suggest the plan used by Southwest airlines. It appears they sold advertising space to Sports Illustrated.

Watching this paint slither through the water might be enough to keep the project operating at a profit

Perhaps a PG rated paint design sponsored by Miami Serpentarium.

How would this look painted on the water train?

Okay I give.. thats too Cool. I have to know how you do that? Pleeeze

Find a picture. Left click and hold down, roll over the picture till it's highlighted. Release left button, click right button and select copy. Go back to your post, hit enter, then right click, and choose paste, and your picture should appear.

Hate to disappoint you but the transportation system in New Orleans didn't break down. The problem in New Orleans was that thousands of people were trained to sit on their butts and depend on the bureaucracy to make decisions for them. The other sad part is that the weather forecasters and emergency management agencies gave more than adequate warnings to everyone to evacuate the town. If people ignored those warnings at that time why do you think that they will get in your rescue train and leave the next time a hurricane approaches. In short - - it is a people problem not a system problem!

When there is a forecast of a hurricane headed for the Florida Keys, there are mandatory evacuations. My belief was that the government did not do enough to evacuate the area. They placed too much faith in a levy system that had limits. Once the water started to breach the levy it was too late to move any amount of people.

You are right, it was a people problem. But my opinion is that the people of the NO area were let down by their elected officials, and then by almost every agency that should have helped them.

There are areas of Mississippi that that still have not had there fire engines replaced. While I see municipalities donate used fire equipment to foreign nations.

With liberty and justice for all.

GA.

Liberty and Justice... but not firetrucks or rescue. You are free to stay in NO if you want.. but at your own risk.. and if you need justice, we'll get the bastards.. so long as you do it on reality tv, and they aren't elected officials or CEOs.

Chris

The Army DKW pictured above is still in use in Wisconsin Dells WI, Missouri or Arkansas they had one tip over on a lake a few years back, and there are more running in the city streets, fast moving rivers, and hauling lots of people.

If New Orleans didn't have DKW, it is a sign of poor planning. A fleet of them should be maintained along the Gulf Coast that can drive and be trucked to an emergency area.

Communications was also a problem in New Orleans, they need multi-band radios that can talk to military, police, fire, HazMat, hospitals and EMT's. Bands that are scrambled so civilians can't hear and can't interrupt. Multiple repeaters so a signal can get in/out of between tall buildings, etc. Better coverage then they had on 9-11.

the cars could also be used temporarily for emergency shelter as the need to be out performing rescue's decreases...

Great Idea.

hairlesssimian

We don't have a good suggestion button (GS) but I would have given you one for sure. That is a great idea and is so obvious. Chris has picked it up and is for sure considering the implications of this in any further design. Well, at least I would be doing that.

GA from me.

They could be made to unfold, like a camper van. Like you say it is not only the direct hit that matters but the need for shelter and medical services in the aftermath of any catastrophe. If near the sea or any water it would be a handy thing to have. I can see problems on land but that is irrelevant. Horses for courses. We will never be able to save them all but a few more would save a lot of suffering and a lot of tears.

I think this was the general idea of Chris, to just put something out there and see it grow or die. It is the first thought that counts (just like the first step) followed by millions of others that make something happen. It beats developing new weapons systems any day.

I did not hear him asking for a government grant either. He just wants to play with an idea and involve as many as possible. Things learned on the way side are just bonus and contribute to greater knowledge of all involved.

You have got me thinking and that's good.

Talk to you soon, Ky.

that's what we're all here for right... kindred spirits in search of mental stimulation of one form or another...

I think the idea Chris has is a good one and I'm glad to be able to throw in my two bits. Some days I wish I had gone down the engineering road, I just don't get along with math; brainstorming I'm good at though.

For all those here who want to make this thread about the humanity and politics of Katrina... you are off target, this isn't about one crisis that has past, but about preparing for the one that hasn't come yet... This could be a great tool for rescuing people stranded in any kind of flood... anybody here ever hear about a dam that broke or a river that flooded... try not to be so narrow minded and you might be amazed at what you can accomplish!

I think the best economic situation for this craft is a party-boat. You could do booze cruse's and the like. Offer packages for several day, not unlike a cruse ship.

The rescue potential would always be there in time if emergences.

Bricktop...once again you have impressed me with your cool intellect... OF COURSE... a party boat... it makes perfect sense... I don't know about you, but if I was just pulled out of a flooded hurricane zone I would definitely want a drink, and the umbrella would be a nice piece of irony... I like the way you think, and that's no bull...

Hi Chris

Have We Failed Engineering?

I have just hit my keyboard for a while and thought you might have a look at what I said regarding the above.

I completely get your point and what you want to achieve. Creating the means to do so is part of the process of any engineering proposal. Some people seem to think that your suggestions are final but I know they are not. It is meant to get the ball rolling and to stop to procrastinate. Build it and they will come. If I can be of help I'll do it.

Maybe you should leave the next paint job to me. Is that Canadian racing green?

You keep at it Mate, Ky.

Chris,

You are right that there is a need for a better amphibious rescue vehicle. There will always be emergencies. Why? Because weather prediction is full of uncertainties. There is no way to expect that planned evacuation is always going to be successful. And as long as there are doubts about "how bad, how long, exactly where" there will be people who hesitate to leave, and who need to be rescued.

The idea of a multi-purpose vehicle that does tours on sunny days, helps evacuate when it's planned, and rescues when it's not planned, is really a good idea.

I think your design is better lookng too, than the 'boat on wheels' types. As long as it can be designed to be really tough enough for hurricane conditions. Hey, maybe for florida, an "alligator" look would help Or a "manatee"....

Good idea, for a few rescue applications, maybe. First off, though, is working through the political and people problems shown by NO and Katrina, as mentioned in several messages. Especially the part about making sure it is recognized politically as an emergency resource. Then, maybe, a new vehicle.

IMO, I think you can forget about the forest fire aspect. Most of these fires, ala California, are very hot and very fast moving. A tractor vehicle, without aerial repositioning capability, would likely be more of a liability than a valid resource, especially in steep and narrow canyons with no turn around points. There is a reason that these fires are fought with airplanes/helicopters and smoke jumpers. I think you need to take a closer look at that.

Hooker <-- whose company is involved in supplying aerial fire management aircraft (and, no, we're not worried about your vehicle being competition )

Sorry for my absence... had to work for a bit... and also was busy building the following model.

I tried my first attempt at designing (bottom up) a Hurricane Proof Submersible/Amphibious Boat/Crawler/Trailer/Truck.. You will have to use your imaginations a bit to see what isn't there..

(missing engines, pumps, plumbing, electrical, actuators, wheels, tracks, and a thousand more things. (and the shape on the front that would encase the front wheel)

As my father would have said, its a dog's breakfast.. I think of it as an ugly duckling... call it what you will, this one is not pretty, but it is an evolutionary step.. incomplete at that. Its still missing the wheels, rudder, props, etc.. but I thought I would stop here (work to do) because i feel its gone off track overall, and needs more top-down input to the design

I started my design process with the submarine pressure hull, then put a frame around it, so it could be rigid over land. (trailer/truck)

I also put a shroud around the deck.. just for wind/rain protection.. but as it would significantly increase the cross-section area under water, I left then ends open.

The cab in front is intended for everything but underwater use. Underwater, everybody is inside, steering by sensor and wire.

The feature that gives it such a 'duck' look is the method of connecting into a train.. kind of a 5th wheel idea. (also enables trailing) (pin and 5th wheel not shown..)

I think to make the whole thing hoistable, the shroud would have to go, and large lifting lugs would fit to the top deck at the grey bands you see, which are used to strap the pressure hull to the frame (along with the cap features at the ends of the pressure hull)

In the one drawing I have painted in wheels, rudder, prop, etc. The wheels will have to be somewhat retactable, to prevent interference with the traction of the Zil screws. I was thinking a tricycle plan, with steerable front wheel.. (aircraft style)
Please help me refine the design

I have also considered putting something like a pair of snowmobile treads on an incline on the front, leading into the zil screws, beside the front wheel, to assist in terrain conquring.

The entrance to the pressure hull on top will have a rounded door the seals the tube shape.

There would have to be some modifications for rails beside the front cab, and then people could walk the length of the train. I would also think a box for gear between the conning tower and the back of the pilot's cabin. This can store any kind of equipment.. could be water tight too.

anyway, please comment on the features you like/hate, and make suggestions for improvement.. maybe the continuing evolution will produce a workable design.

At this point, I think the whole thing has to be made out of aluminum, to keep the weight down... Its not a bus or train.. but I think that to eliminate the pressure hull, and make the outer hull able to be submersible is a possibility.. just have to think about that..

Oh ya.. size.. it is about 68 feet long.. 20 feet beam.. the pressure hull is 10 ft id. The big beams under the whole thing are channel shaped, 18" x 12"... but aluminum, with holes cut out to lighten them.

Cheers,

Chris

I've added tractor tires (liquid filled so they will withstand going under water.) storage lockers on top, and 60" fold out decks. as I will eventually start over again with a different model, I didn't bother taking the deck concept too far. but its a good one. The tires look small, but they are at least 6 feet tall. and 24" wide. As noted before, some method of lifting the wheels above the line(or inline) of the zil screws would be required I think. I also think it might be possible to put tracks on the outboard side of the screws similar to this technology.

Chris,

Look at two drop down steerable Azipod type drives...similar to the in/outboard volvo-penta stern drives...they can also steer the vehicle and let the rear wheels rotate for extra push. Make all drives sealed hydraulics from the main engine and use hose connections to hub dives (Hagglund make a truck wheeel assy) and RR makes the Azipod types and so does Volvo-Penta and several others.

THe US navy/Marines have several RORO's with azipod drives and can self dock and manouvre through narrow channels by turning each azipod as needed...use a combination of electric and hydraulics from a Gas turbine electrical/pump generator...some up to 20,000 hp each....some azipod assys are shrouded and able to go into shallow waters and not get damaged.

Good concept for rescue or even transportation in river/swamp areas.

There was a Canadian company that built a huge vehicle with like 8 very large wheels used to move heavy stuff over the Tundra and through water...only four were ever made..could carry 50 ton loads. Saw it once in PopSci.

I think my biggest concern with the design as you show it is the method of entry into the pressure hull... I'm assuming we're going to be dealing with injured or exhausted people making stairs or ladders impractical and an elevator is apt to be too slow or too susceptible to malfunction under severe conditions... I think entry needs to be easily accomplished for at least two people carrying a third on a backboard while the craft bobs and pitches in rough seas, preferably frighteningly close to the water line when the vehicle is holding position.

Also, I sort of lose the secondary usability with this design, I know the idea isn't to make a 'party boat' but making it appealing for tourism/recreation makes it profitable when the world isn't flipped upside down which could be the factor that gets the project built... perhaps some underwater view ports that could be protected with steel plugs or shutters etc when it is time to transform from recreational vehicle to super rescue transport (yes, I played with transformers... briefly) or, to go in a different route, make it desirable for field research, this could be a good vehicle for exploring say the amazon river system... Our touring the amazon river system now that I think about it...

I'm not terribly familiar with zil screws, I did google them and looked at some video... very cool, how durable will the screw be over say a concrete street covered with debris? I think the tri-cycle plan may make it difficult to maneuver in a rescue area or would this just be for open road movement? Please enlighten me...

when you go to make the floor for the pressure hull be sure to use the void underneath for storage... medical and survival supplies could easily be stashed there (or a mini bar).

If I think of anything else I'll post it...

J

great points... port holes and easy access

just the kind of things I wanted to hear... I'm going to start over with a new build.. this one is currenly crashing solidworks, I think because i built it all as one part.

If you could put together a concept sketch about what you think might work for access.. I'd model it up. Port holes I can do. Definitely a single hull plan will make windows and doors (with screens ) much more functional.

My current notions about terrain is that you would use it as a trailerable vehicle for long distances, and therefore would have a heavy axle on the back. The front wheel is more for positioning, or entry into the water on a boatramp, but not really a distance or rough terrain thing. therefore, it is retractable. Obviously the screws are for off-road, swamp, and water, or getting over debris like a destroyed house.. otherewise I think that some treads/tracks would be appropriate. steel tracks are something that are going to survive fire work, as well as the screws, but they will unbalance the vehicle, and make it more difficult to work as a submarine or boat.... so I'm still pondering that one.

The other possibility is to make the front at back able to take modular attachments, so that a facility like an EMS station could operate the vehicle that will be fore emergencies, and could own tracks, trucks, or whatever.. and when it is going to work in the wet, you have jet thrusters. (someone else could have the wings and turbine engines )

I think that the storage of equipment and supplies would be on top between the cabin and the tower... and of course.. the bar..lol

I've kept the beam limited to 20 feet.. but even then its a bit wide for road travel.. but will fit. Any wider, and I don't think it will work. I'll see if it can be gauged down to 12 feet.

Thank you,

Chris.

btw.. GA for the valuable comments.

well poop on a stick and other obscenities I can't write here... I just spent about 15 minutes wording some responses to this and then I closed it... Let's see if I can remember what I was talking about...

For the doors I would like to see a large twin door hatch that opens out onto an aft 'landing' with a secondary door like an air-lock to prevent rogue waves swamping through the door and sinking the craft... or possibly a clam shell design on the sides... I'll keep thinking on this and get abck to you...

Single hull solves a lot of problems but adds a greater risk of catastrophic puncturing of the hull... For this application I think structural integrity would be more important then a view... But dammit I like the sound of having a view... perhaps it could be worth designing dual hull portholes with the external one having a plate or plug that could be quickly installed...

I don't think steel tracks would cause too much trouble with handling, the more of the vehicles mass that is underwater the less likely it is to capsize...

I would definitely put some sort of stabilizing keel in, it could be retractable for shallow water... or possibly a twin keel design... it wouldn't need to be anywhere nearly as dramatic as a sailboat keel since there is no mast or sail but considering the environment the extra stability would certainly be a plus... I did some googling on the subject and haven't yet found anything that I would recommend reading on the subject... Wikipedia has some nice explanatory pictures that show the principles of keels but so far that's really the best single source I've found and it's not great... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keel there are lots of sites with good info but it's a needle in the haystack situation...

As far as the overall size goes... bigger may not be better, though unfortunately I think that is an issue that would need to be addressed by your potential market... Since they are linkable it may actually be more beneficial to make them smaller... maybe... Ultimately, now that I've thought some more on it, I think the final size should be determined by factoring the effects of size and mass on handling characterstics... for example, a bigger heavier design will have greater stability and lesser maneuverability while a lighter design will have greater maneuverability but at the cost of stability... Find a good balance and that will be the right size

you've definitely got my brain twirling on this one...

Your point about being able to bring weak or injured people onto the craft is well stated. If the tapered sections directly to the sides of the pilot's cabin were flat, and possibly hinged at the inboard side, it would facilitate the pilot positioning the craft to the exact position needed, as well as allowing the crew to assist getting people animals and other floating items on board.

absolutely..

my hand drawn sketches show just such a plan.. it just didn't go that way when I was working in solidworks.. exactly the kind of top down thinking I'm looking for.

Chris

Interesting...

I wonder about the tendency for 'cars' to be thrashed about in a chain like this in water (as opposed to on track). Might be worth working out, how many cars pulled by one snakehead before they start to bash against buildings etc in the flooded city scenario?

Would it be more viable to have short snakes in this case. Or would you have locomotion gear at intervals down a long snake, to provide the necessary synchrony?

I good keel ridge working in tandem with the rudder and some computer interfacing between cars should be able to overcome the thrashing problem... definitely an issue that would need addressing

I agree this must be addressed.

First, the original concept of the Pelamis has hydraulic cylindners at 2 or 3 points, which serve to dampen (and capture) the wave energy. I still think this is a reasonable method. As far as 'snaking' through the city, there are high tech and low tech approaches. The high tech approach makes the longer train more managable, and reversible. The low tech approach should work for short trains, but is limited in its capacity.

I do not believe that it is wise to attempt a rigid system, so articulation in 2 axes is required, and a method of connection to permit dampening and actuation. (at least in the horizontal axis)

I believe that there are a class of vertebrae-like systems and methods of controlling them in different ways using cables or cylinders that give specific behaviours, either for energy capture, dampening, or serial articulation like a snake. As I undertand snake propulsion, it is a combination system of force, friction and articulation. Definitely this will be a requirement for navigating the likes of a flooded city.. Lastly, there is simply disconnecting, and playing follow the leader. For this reason, I have put a pilot's cab on each vehicle, and would consider it a requirement for each to have its own power plant and steering. Not just a dumb trailer, but a vehicle in its own right.

As far as submerging, the conditions that would demand submerging, such as in a hurricane, are not the time to be out rescuing people... at least, I was thinking, people need more to be rescued after the storm has passed.. but why limit it right.. let's design a vehicle that can go through hell when required.

Chris

being able to submerge can be a huge benefit if the surface is very rough or head winds very strong... you can drop below the chaos of the surface and make smoother progress... it does however greatly increase the design requirements...

I'm 100% with you on the articulating linkages, I think that it will want to play nice and some relatively simple damping devices attached to a computer control to co-ordinate the cars actions should work in most situations, and if it gets to hairy... well, like you say, disconnect and play ducks on the pond. I would of course like to see some testing to confirm my suspicions...

let's design a vehicle that can go through hell when required.

AMEN, definitely design it to deliver pizza to the devil! Since you can't predict what conditions it might have to go into it's best to assume space rays may be involved... of course moderation is important too or it will cost to much to render let alone build... A difficult balancing act to be sure...

Oho for defining the mission. Design it to deliver pizza to the devil. Yep if it can do that we needn't worry about side trips like flood rescue. ROFL.

Hi Chris

I am still following but am more occupied in trying to determine the dual use for this mode of transport. It has been mentioned but a dominant idea has not been suggested yet.

The medical units could be on standby and not in general use. They could be hooked up on demand, and become part of the "Snake Of Life". SOL to the rescue.

At one stage or the other you will have to make design decisions that cater for this. Because finance of such a project will be a deciding factor, full time utilization, when not in emergency use, will be very important. I've taken to the idea and admire your commitment to it. It's a long way to go but Rome was not built in a day either.

Its a pity we can't test it here because 'here' is the opposite of hell, well, most of the time anyway.

Talking of hell every one, the fires in Victoria are still raging. Helicopters can not be used due to extreme winds. Considering the footage that we are seeing, nothing could go through that, even if we tried really, really hard. Mother nature will stay the unpredictable beast she has always been.

Keep it up, Ky.

Ky,

I haven't been focusing on the dual use.. just trying to focus on one thing at a time, and so its no use to focus on the tourism and partying if the craft doesn't function as a... um vehicle.

I agree about the medical units.. thats what I meant by modular units. I like the SOL..lol

More and more I'm becoming a believer in the 'stock' notions of investment. I don't think that stock markets represent all the ways to garner investment, and I don't believe that it has to be complicated.. in fact, I think that the stock markets have become bloated pigs, and people have lost faith. What is needed is a simple method of investment, where you put your money in.. and get an exact proportion amount of ownership. no bs. It would be applicable for a design that is going to be a public use system. An assessment would have to be done.. to determine the cost to build, and then add 50% for overruns.. and divide up the pie. done. If it is 100 million $ to design/build/test.. then that is what you have to divide.. 20,000 investors with 5,000$ blocks.

Thank you Mother Nature... Problems are an engineer/designer's best friend. Without them, we would all be unemployed. Bringing Art to the game is divine. as you know. It has been this way since the world was sang into being.

Chris

If your design has a pilot in each section, why not just link the vehicles with a radio?

bob c,

If you are suggesting a semi automatic auto pilot form of radio..maybe using gps..that is awesome and visionary. I love it..as an option GA

however, for rescue on the high seas in 50ft waves.. I would be endlessly fascinated to see how the dampening system would behave.. and maybe it would allow rescue of sailboats etc, in those extreme conditions because the 'snake' aspect will allow it to have a measure of position and control while boats and helicopters struggle...

I can't say how it will behave, but if for example, some method of sensing wave shape and direction were built in, the system could make the snake conformal to that, and act with thrusters to maintain position. link by radio would still work..but there should be a multiplicity of options.. For example, if you are working in an explosive situation then hydraulics and pneumatics become a better option, to reduce ignition factors.

Chris

It all depends on the wind and water current. In strong winds, positioning a single boat is hard enough. It is one thing to position when headed into the wind. It is quite another thing to position with a 45* cross wind. And positioning the craft is always dependant upon placement of the item that needs to brought into the craft, and the placement of immovable obstructions.

We have noted an increase in wind conditions when hurricanes are near.

agreed.. see comment here

Good insight.

I have long thought that internal counterrotating flywheels have been under explored when it comes to water based vehicles.. The inertial resistance to acceleration provided by flywheels would permit much greater control over the pitching, yawing and churning.

Secondly, for submersible craft, it can eliminate the need for external rudder and attitude control, which can be fouled.

Lastly, it can be an alternative method of energy storage for underwater motion when the diesel is off. (given proper development of the energy loading and unloading mechanisms.

I think portholes are a plus. If people can see out, they will pay to ride, in fair weather. In a rescue situation, being able to look out, below the water line, could be crucial -- "There's a submerged car ahead."

If one is rescuing individuals or small groups, as off rooftops, do you want to send a whole train?

While there are submersibles which operate on diesel power underwater, one might want to give more thought to power, schnorkels, etc.

Personally, I like an alternative approach, a vehicle wich resembles a spider with powered wheels on the legs and a boat hull. For high speed water travel, ship to shore, the legs retract and the vehicle uses its planing hull. At the beach, the legs go down. If one encounters a wall, for instance, the legs can individually lift up over the obstacle and, if need be, lift the body up to clear it. It can turn in its own length. In the worst cases, it walks/climbs like a spider. Decades ago, the Marines wanted a vehicle to go from over the horizon to the beach at 40 kts. and then go inland. I submitted my concept. They prefered the brute force approach, with about 2000 hp.

having a robotics background... I agree..

problem is, i'm an arachnophobe... so I would have to make it into a grasshopper or something..lol

visionary post..love it.

Chris

Forget grasshopper, think cockroach -- they can get into anything!

Excellent Idea,

But one must first end the "Nanny State" the New Orleans has become to make prople want to evacuate. Remember, there was four days of warnings prior to the hurricane hitting that city. Remember, scores of school buses just bobbing in the aftermath of flood waters that could have, ney, Should have taken these people to safety......

I don't rate guests as a policy. But you deserve this one.

Look here to see a solution to the water train articulation problem.

Chris