PC vs Mac

3 basic issues.

1. The Windows system, as convenient and user-friendly as it may be, has got many fundamental design flaws in its kernel (the heart of the OS). This makes it more vulnerable to attack than the Mac OS system.
2. Computer geeks love Apple but hate Microsoft. Why, I can't figure out, since Apple is every bit as protectionistic as Microsoft, otherwise they won't make everything of their's proprietary. Maybe it's because the computer geek community is elitist and regard Windows as being for losers, or maybe it's because of who knows what other reason. But that's just the way it is. Whatever the reason really is, while Mac OS malware do exist, they're few and far between, as the losers who write these malware tend to deliberately choose to target Windows.
3. Windows is installed on 90% of all PCs, most of which are used by people who are otherwise computer illiterate. If you were a loser who badly needs to get a life, targetting Windows will enable you to hit the vast majority of PCs and make you a hero in the malware community.

Maybe this adds a little.

I'd go with the 'not enough people use mac to interest bandits' notion, but it's only a matter of time. As far as I can figure, it's not impossible to infect a mac (?). PC users are accustomed to leaky Windows, constant updates, and the need for security. What will Mac users do if malware suddenly appears like a tsunami ? This report was bogus, but maybe one day the safe little world of Mac will collapse.

I was thinking of getting another pooter, but will probably stick with the devil I know. Bit annoying that pre-installed stuff is all Vista now. It's gone a bit made if you have to seek a downgrade !

I run very tedious machine soul sucking anti-virus s/w, so I've never been hit.

I've tried openoffice, but their spreadsheet left me clueless. So I stick with excel - it's one of the dumbest programs ever, but at least I know how to use it, more or less.

I sympathize, because a lot of the work I do involves graphs, and the things you have to do to get a proper scientific graph out of excel isn't printable, but involves VB.

One of the best things I have found but haven't tried is statistics software, as the veracity of their graphs has to be higher. Soon.

GA x 2

thanks man,

markar

Yeah, Vista is a pain. I only wanted a no-hassle cheapo, but all the bog-standard systems have Vista. It may be undue, but I don't think I'd trust to an e-bay copy being legit (?), and that's on top of the fact that I like buying from people I can get my paws on. It's not an urgent need, so I shall just keep my eye out for something that suits.

It seems a bit early to know how the next Windross will be, but it seems to already have a better reputation than Vista.

I may investigate OpenOffice at some time, but I have no pressing need for it. Linux is a possibility, though it seems a bit like taking a plunge into the unknown (well, that's exactly what it would be). I'm quite happy with XP, just annoyed at how the hardware & pre-installed o/s market works. Guess I'll just have to specify what I want to someone, a quick look on the net didn't show much with XP pre-installed. Maybe I'll chat with Dell.

My other gripe is all the pre-installed software that I don't want/need. It cuts cost for people who want all that bloat, and reduces piracy, but so what ? Restaurants survive without forcing everyone to buy a set meal. Is it possible for computer suppliers to just place all the crudware as installation files ? ie, you get the thing home and select which ones you want to fully install. Surely the way licenses are authenticated could be set up to accommodate that ? I forget all the bloat I had to delete from my current system, but most of it was stuff that wouldn't need a license anyway - trial versions of this that and the other. The average high street retailer would keel over if i simply said "I want that particular computer, with XP on it and nothing else".

try pricewatch for barebones systems. you can spec out exactly what you want

Thanks, noshorts, that's a handy link

As long as you buy a FULL version of XP (and I personally would only recommend Professional) from a company on ebay with 100% or close, is next to no risk. Do not buy either second hand (except from a good friend maybe), nor one intended for a particular make of PC or Laptop.

I have bought at least 6 copies of XP Pro on ebay (over the last 4 years or so), maybe more I never counted!, also a Laptop with XP Pro installed. No problems with them in any way at all, except large amounts of money saved......

At this time, XP is the only "reliable" Windows around, the next will eventually be Win7 I think as Vista has simply proved to be a waste of time and money for all concerned.

Its not the first time that BG/MS has made such an error, think about Win 98 (without the SE!) and Win ME for example......Win98SE was the corrected and still useful/still used version (Many CNC users still use it daily) and Win7 will probably be the eventual equivalent of Vista SE for example!!!

I also hear that to get to Win7, you will need to install Vista first, which is terrible!!!

But how will Bill get his money back from his Vista investment otherwise????

Hello ed, It has been a while since I was chatting on here. I think it looks like 1/3/09 was the last time I was on, so hello to all and I really have missed you all, and all this banter! I have not been well, nervous breakdown actually. In hospital a while then I started once again to get my PC back into working condition, with no luck. I had it 'up to here' with virus' and Trojans written specifically for windows. That is why I now have a brand new (3 days old) Mac Book Pro. As you say ed' why write virus for the ten %, when you can write it and get it 'published' on the (roughly) 90 % 0f the rest? Apart from the virus issue, it is hard to 'compare' 'like with like' when talking of a PC or a Mac. Simply because Mac machines by and large use Mac software. Windows uses almost any software by comparison. The only similarity is they both have keyboards. I know Mac's may not have as much software, I have yet to find out, but they are from what I have read, much better at what they do, simply because, no one else does it! A whole lot of Countries Industries are based on writing software for windows and or it's 'clones', copies, whatever you want to call them. However an extreme minority write Apple Mac software..................... Let me say here and now though, if the windows own and other software written for it was not so 'buggy' and as I found out, 'full of holes', I would not have migrated to Mac. At the same time, there would be virtually no anti-virus market software. That is the way I see it anyway............................. But, again, I would not have gotten into computing if Mr Gates had not been so prolific! The Mac's for sale now, not sure about the software on Mac's so I will leave that for the moment, are the best constructed computers out there pretty much. Though, if you spent as much as a Mac costs on a PC, and you can, you do not have to look hard, the actual build quality will be pretty much equal. I fel the software on windows, and in particular the mess they had gotten themselves into with the choice of at least three OS out there which is supposed to be the best? I think it is all versions of a whole mish-mash of software, and it is confusing when you go out for a computer which software do you choose? I am glad I am back and all I have to do is re-learn to live and to use my Mac software, as of yet I have not even blown the dust off yet! Take care............

Welcome Back...

I hope that whatever was stressing you has now passed.

be at peace, and stay connected.

Chris

Hello chrisg288, Very kind words from you and I am glad to be back! It took 3 days to get enough courage to actually write the first letter though! Thank you. Thank you so much. The problem was/is a Family thing, together with other stuff which has been left in my lap so as to speak. Makes me ill to say so I won't if you do not mind, OK? It has not diminished, I am just trying to handle it better thats all. As in a few other periods of my life I figured I could 'manage'. When I found out too late I couldn't. But, at the time I had no choice but to try and live life as it hits you, or should I say me between the eyes. I am sorry if that sounds a little 'obtuse', but I can't go into detail. Thank you once again chris....... Sincerely, babybear

I've been through a few times when there were no answers, and no abatement of the stressor... every situation is different. I have found it important to understand that all things and myself are interconnected. and as much as human behaviour is not understandable.. it is only not understandable on this earthly plane, and there are other levels where things do make sense.

Its ironic that this discussion should occur under the umbrella of computers and operating systems, as there are strong parallels to to humans and their problems. We are genetic copies of our parents, who were genetic copies of their parents.. and so on, all the way back up the reproduction chain... to the source. Therefore, all dna based life is connected. If "Life" comes with the genetic copy, then we are all living copies of that source, whatever it may be/have been...

I don't know how deep that connection goes. Maybe it goes beyond the ancient protein folding that led to DNA.. maybe the life source is inherent in the structure of atoms and molecules.. maybe space and time itself is alive.. maybe we are swimming in a sea of life.. all inter connected all the time... maybe the darkness is just what adds the basis for learning, and otherwise the screen of life is pure white bliss. We need the darkness, as spirits, to understand the true value of life. Maybe we need to experience the cold pain of separation and empirical topological existence, in order to really understand and appreciate the warm connected organic loving of life and heaven. maybe we are all one being, diversified into a multitude of experiental nodes (bodies), living different lifetimes. but only the comprehensive whole will amount to divinity.

I don't know why we are here. I don't know what life is. I don't know what intelligence is, I don't know God... but I'm sure that being connected to life, people, and love is what keeps me sane. Fear is just a teacher. Someday we will all understand the lesson.

I wish you the best.

Chris

Yes, McMurtry is one of the best at couching Judeo-Christian values into non-religious characters. If he was ever a man of faith, I've not heard of it, but he certainly understands the outward "fruit" of a man of character, and spent many words showing how that played out in a wild-west setting. "Love your neighbor as yourself" is, of course, the rule even Christ pointed to as the most important right after "love the Lord your God."

Interestingly for those connecting the dots in this PC/MAC discussion, McMurtry gives much of his own praise to his Hermes 3000 typewriter. He apparently always felt that the solid interaction of real "manual" machine typing - the feel and sounds and weight - was conducive to building the momentum for creative writing and keeping the narrative flowing naturally...and let the publisher do the spell-checking later ;)

I'm thinking that if there were a heavy, clicking, rumble-pack enabled Mac with a printer that advanced line-by-line, he would likely pick that over any PC.

She is still running OS 9 ? Oh bless her soul ! I remember getting tortured with that OS....

Edignan, OS X is the best operating system I have ever used, and I use Photoshop, Illustrator, (CS 3 and 4), Maya, Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro, Microsoft Office, and so many others. CS 4 just came out and has been buggy on two computers I know of, but four systems are running beautifully.

It is worth every penny of the upgrade....

Macs are more favorable to the creative community. Less clunky visual arts and music software.

Even for that group the crashes are maddening.

I think a lot of people just have an attitude against Bill Gates.

Virus is the product of distractive mind set. Virus creation is done for distraction of others soft data. Maximum users are using PC and Windows so it is but obvious that virus Creator will chose that platform so that they can do the mass distraction.

This is similar to the terrorist attack. their intension is also the mass distraction so they chose large city and crowded space rather then choosing small village having less population.

Hi Bhankii,

I've heard (but not sure) that one main reason is the Mac OS is Unix-based and is more robust. I suppose the proof might be if the PC's running Linux are as prone to virus attacks as are those running the Windows OS. Anyone know any stats about that?

Of course, the other arguments are also true ... the percentage of Macs vs. Windows PCs are quite small.

BTW, I was a Mac-guy since the beginning of time, but switched to PCs about 5 years ago because (1) Apple is a non-negotiable entity when it comes to any kind of issue resolution, and (2) there were too many apps I needed to run that I couldn't do on the Mac. YES, Windows is a PITA, but generally I get by ... at least it works okay on CR4 .

IMHO, Macs are extremely elegant, while PCs (most of them) are fundamental. But, $ for $ (or the currency of your choice), PCs are a much better value.

Kind regards ...

On the question about Virus and PC/Mac I stand by my earlier - most hacking is strictly commercial (spam farms) or script kiddie (general curious / malicious) and targeting the larger community makes sense.

On openness and availability, there have been many excellent points made I agree with.

On the specifics of cost over time for upgrades for OS and such, the wife has taken me to task (called BS?) and until I have further hard data perhaps I should hesh up. Should be enough web data out there...

Like everyone else, no real data just a story

My brother in-law used to work for the Veterans Administration as a systems guy. Every time there was security update from windows, he would spend the next week or so fending off attacks from hackers, anxious to find the new vulnerability on the VA's network...

I used open office for a few years & still do on occasion. The real difference is the lack of help files especially for spreadsheets & presentations. You can look at OO as shareware, w/star office as the full version.

Edigan you might look at using Access to turn your excel files into graphs. Access has better security for the use of data & makes you do more work in the beginning & yields much more versatility.

I think the important difference is not the kind of computer you use, but the OS you use in the computer. Thought if you used a PC with Linux (any distribution) you would have less problems with viruses, but of course, they are competing against Windows, the other that you have to pay to use it, and they are not going to show it...

Anyway, it is true that they design both, hardware and software, so it is logical that the Mac will work better, with its made-to-measure suit, but a well configured PC with Linux (if you do know how to configure it) is going to be as good as a Mac, and of course, 3 or 4 times cheaper.

I did know how to work my HP 4000 Workstation that I got. It had protections, but they were not that great, and I was not well off, and then the harddrive wore out. Had a couple of old machines Emachine and another around the house inherited from dead relatives.

The machines got corrupted and died very quickly.

Was offered a couple of Apple Mac Machines used for 200 bucks and 400 bucks and bought them.

Price for service feeds to them went up.

No great gain really considering increased price for DSL.

Still getting by.

US government turn to MACs means more assaults. I have suggestions.

Check with Chtank for reports of assaults.

Mac Assaults increasing.

I can say yes to your final question.

Why, because I use my PC correctly and have all the correct software on it to repel viruses etc..all kept fully updated.....

What you may have overlooked is that Windows is preferred by 90% of US computer users and 98% of the rest of the world.....so it is the "preferred" Target for Virus writers!!! Why write virus software to attack a system that so few people still use?

Ask yourself why so many people prefer Windows "in spite of its problems"......

Part of the answer has to be massive quantities of good free software, massive quantities of good cheap software etc etc...

Mac software and hardware was (at least some years ago when I used them as a Training machine) far more expensive that Windows software/hardware.....even the CRTs of the day for Macs were double the price (and not as reliable either!), so I bought normal PC CRTs and put a small converter plug between them and the Macs.....I saved the company a bundle...and when the Macs became useless, we used the screens for other things!!!

I am not even going to be so idiotic as to suggest that I understand completely why Windows is the preferred system, it simply is so....maybe part of the reason is the "Holier than thou..." attitude of many Mac users......who somehow try to give the rest of the world the impression that a) they know everything better PC users b) they are more intelligent than PC users and c) their shit does not stink like that of PC users!!

I just wish that Mac users who prefer Macs would just use them and stop shouting about it on every street corner......PC users seem to not need to shout about their PCs....

I've been known to shout about my PC, usually it's words that aren't fit to post here...

As I see it Windows is winning the popularity contest by providing a cheaper product to consumers that don't know the difference and wouldn't care if they did.

If you need a cheap machine for basic use (word processing, internet access etc...what most pc owners/users do) then by all means get a PC, it WILL be cheaper. If you are a PC-Geek and know how to tweek your machine you shouldn't be wasting your time reading this; however, if you need a machine that is dependable and not likely to require expert 'tweeking' get a Mac.

If you want to know why I feel this way read CSoulPro's post (# 28), I couldn't have put it nearly so well. (btw GA CSP)

I still stand by my comment, why do Mac users still have to try and prove something, why can't they just be happy, that they are happy!!! and let the rest alone....

Macs are a tiny, almost insignificant part of the total of all desktop and Laptop computers......Worldwide under 5% I believe......until that reaches 40 or better, I will still stay with my PC.....

PC users in the main just use their PCs and have no need to talk about how good it is all the time......

I can honestly say that mainly due (I believe) in the fact that I have NEVER bought a finished PC, but always picked good quality components and built my own, always used oversized Power supplies etc., accounts for the fact that I have exceedingly rarely any problems.......PCs and their parts are made all over the world.....some parts are not of good enough quality....

Macs are generally more restricted in who makes them, this probably assists in not having such problems. If they were/could be made by any Tom, Dick or Harry, I think you might have a different song to sing......

I have not looked recently, but 8 years or so (when I was using Macs in a training environment) ago Macs were 3 or 4 x more expensive (and slower) than the PCs of the day......the software was also far more expensive.....

Each to his own.....

Could you give a cost breakdown of machines that exhibit as near as dammit the same "speeds" and equivalent software (your choice) of a "Top of the line" PC.

I was so put off by the whole Mac scene at the time that I really am not up to date any more (lack of interest I suppose!).....perhaps you could update us all with facts and not opinions (as I rarely believe them!!). Thanks in advance....

In the time when I was involved with Macs (in comparison to top PCs of the day), prices were high, the machines were slow, the graphics were good, but the CRTs (and other hardware) were expensive, delivery was slow too as it was all ordered in the USA when the order was received....

We had trouble giving the machines away when we were finished with them.....nobody was interested......each one costed around $7,500......a good PC costed about half at the time, I mean a REALLY GOOD PC.....top of the line....

It was actually about 13 years ago when I was involved with them......not as I said yeasterday, sorry.

Ga..

Do you know or have any experience running Solidworks or other 3D apps on a Mac?

Chris

Hey Chris, I use Turbo CAD Pro, but I am only starting to use it so I cannot offer support or advice, but as I delve into it I will let you know. As far as I have heard it is comparable to most PC based CAD software.

But it definitely depends on what you are doing, and I know there are many options available in the PC world. And although I am familiar with it, but have not used it myself, Software like pro engineer and autocad are staples and quite powerful. They also cost big bucks.

I am pretty sure there is an identical version for Windows.......!?! Should I check? Why would the Mac version be different/better than the Win version?

Or did I missunderstand what you were trying to tell us?

http://www.turbocad.com/TurboCAD/TurboCADforWindows/TurboCADPro16/tabid/1160/Default.aspx?gclid=CJqp8KOGlZoCFRBbagod92_TMQ

Renders in all the usual formats.

I know what Andy means about the smug attitude from mac users, of course they generally don't care about the very real price differential...

Transcendian of course is on a used machine...

I have a xp & a vista machine

The vista machine can be a pain, it wants you to do things in a certain way & gets balky when you don't follow the preferred yet undefined path. Incredibly bloated w/nonsense/convenience features.

I like Itunes, but if you try to do anything out of the ordinary such as store the files on a external HD, there can be issues.

I used to to have an Ipod mini, which was really fun, but the hard drive would get stuck, the solution as per the user forum [no real tech support] was bang it on the right side, it worked, but there is no support! if my 5 yr old hp has a problem I can at least chat with a tech.

an I book will agressivly find a wireless signal from your or the nieghbor's router

Which is better?

Do you have more time or more money?

Hey Garthh,

I found that right clicking on computer at the start menu then go to properties, advanced system settings, advanced tab, performance settings, visual effects then select adjust for best performance helps with the bloat of convenience features.

Here's an observation of Windows users ; Most people I meet seem to explore their files via My computer, though I do it via Windows Explorer. There's no difference I can think of, other than using Explorer has a nice retro feel, a bit like the 'Tree' command in dos. That hasn't got much to do with the point of the thread, though we have veered toward what people feel is intuitive/nice to handle. If Mac's were housed in a junky looking box, would so many people buy them ? I think not, but they always seem to have been targeted at the art/graphics folk (I've no idea why - can anyone explain ?).

Because of the Motorola processor IMO which had true multi-tasking making graphic programs easier to use on a mac (or Amiga , first B5 episodes were rendered on Amiga's). And were in the beginning more powerful then the PC's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/68k

It was learning about the 6800 that convinced me I didn't have an aptitude for that kind of tech stuff ! Oddly enough, I chucked out a bunch of yellowed notes on the topic just last week (Why, oh why, did I keep them so long ! ).

Thanks but,

of course it's more complicated. we Bought My wife a nice HP laptop & was ready to let me do anything I wanted to repair it LOL. It kept crashing everytime she would try to open up hotmanil, apparently there is some conflict & Vista would prefer she use Outlook, further adding to the bloat... She started using a mail account from our ISP & seems happy & her computer is off limits again.

I generally keep my music backed up to cd's, bookmarks, mail & documents on google's server.

Would the Mac users please chime in as to their back up schemes?

The few Mac users I know generally don't have a plan other than take it in & have a tech recover.

I think I'll start playing with setting up an old XP desktop as a linux machine. Any advice as to where to find good info? I know I'm looking at a bunch of hours playing around.

Just turn Outlook off or choose not to configure it, you need to do this then use hotmail an it will just work.

I've run into a trouble sometimes when loading Linux to a system with only 512MB ram, when the OEM has locked up about one and one half MB. If this is the case with your old faithful additional RAM may be needed to install, Linux requires 512MB RAM free memory space.

A few spots:

Mac support

Linux support

I sort of lucked out.

Remember when Chtank got mad at me about my computer?

I remember you saying to lighten up on me 'cause my computer was going to hell.

Actually I think three went to hell.

I really need to count up all the cars and trucks I've had. And count up all the typewriters I've had. And count up how many computers I've had.

Since I figured out how to get some modicum of formatting and line breaks nobody has complained to me about anything but the content of something I have written, whereas prior I got complaints.

So then, I have to say, at least on CR4, I have had fewer complaints due to the equipment I have drifted to using, than I had when I was using the EMachine, or the HP Workstation, or the Dell.

I did like the XP program for my writing, and also liked 98. So far text edit on mac is out of kilter as far as font sets and point sizes, and I may well return to writing or drawing with whatever Leonardo Da Vinci used, with only the addition of black and white silver based photographic methods.

Transcendian,

Try http://www.abisource.com/ free cross platform word processing.

Hi csoulpro,

Can you explain something to me, I was a bit confused by this article ; With "Boot Camp", you can boot into windows or mac o/s on separate partitions. All is safe because the side with mac o/s only reads windows files. That far I think I understand. With "Parallels", it goes further by saying ; multiple copies of windows can be installed on separate partitions and won't cross infect. Is that equally true for separate partitions on a pc ? Probably a naive question, but I'm curious. A long time back I partitioned a pc with dos and installed two different windows versions, but have no recollection of the exact workings/ any interaction of the two.

The notion of running mac o/s and windows at the same time is interesting, though I'm not sure go there other than out of learning interest. I keep other pc's up to speed so I can keep going in case of disaster - physically separate machines seems a better bet against malware induced crash. I don't keep any sensitive data on a computer just in case it's stolen, though I do shuffle stuff according to a rough 'unhappiness at loss' assessment. With that in mind, using such a system as parallels has some appeal - working off-line with windows, general surfing with mac. Re-booting into another partition is no big deal, though I could just as easily keep 2 systems running at the same time.

One other point I'm puzzle about is the embedded wireless with Apple - is that such a good thing from a security point of view ? I guess you can disable it if not needed, but does 'embedded imply any greater risk then for a pc? Maybe not.

That's a bit lengthy, but what I'm trying to get at is this ; Having used apple for a long time, what if any, security flaws have you seen ? You've done a good job of promoting mac, though I remain unconvinced by the 'hasn't happened yet' arguments. PC users spend half their lives adding security patches etc, but Apple users seem to have an almost Titanic belief in the security of their systems. I can't argue with the lack of Mac virus attacks, but the fervent belief in security that some mac users have sets alarm bells ringing in my head.

Is there any truth to this quote ; " By contrast, Mac OS X flaws seem to be a rare event so when there is one it is fairly big news. Especially when it is as serious as this latest security hole. ". Windows is constantly being chipped at by thousands of hackers, and maybe the rate of attrition will become constant (OK, unlikely), but what if the bad guys give some serious attention to Mac one day ? The very fact that the o/s is more secure might also lead to occasional security breeches being worse (?). A bit like somebody suffering a burst water main, rather than a leaky tap.

It's a bit rich of me to ask about security issues when there don't appear to be any, but anything you can add would be appreciated.

Like your style Kris, you make some good points. Many thanks from me.....

Yes, good questions, Kris.

I have not personally used parallels but some clients have with no real problems. Certain software products have been buggy from time to time for them, sometimes when they upgrade software versions too fast, which can be problematic for everyone. I do dual boot on a mac, and dozens of clients do with no problems especially nowadays.

The transition (recent) to intel processors has made many things possible, and certainly more stable (not to mention faster).

Question: Is that equally true for separate partitions on a pc ?

I do not know.

Q: the 'hasn't happened yet' arguments:

Well, I will tell you that I am sure that macs will be targeted more over time, but I must put it this way. First, all computers are susceptible for targeting. Right now, Macs are at a great place due to their more rigid OS, and their constant pursuit of progression, and responsive behavior. I get updates every week for some Apple software or firmware and such. The response time after feedback is unprecedented. Their approach is to build the best system they can initially, and work it out along the way. My experience with XP for example, is that they still do not take proper initial steps, and they do not fix or support things like Internet explorer for example, which amazes me that not only do people still use it, but it has become a product for microsoft that they do not really support, or well enough in the past.

I do not jump on new operating systems either. Even from Apple. Each step from Jaguar to tiger, to leopard has had issues but security has never really been one. I believe their approach to software development and the constant bombardment of updates creates the stability I currently enjoy.

Q: The very fact that the o/s is more secure might also lead to occasional security breaches being worse

The worst is total destruction of your entire system, and that happens for PCs all the time. People find ways around everything, and the dangers will only increase, but OSX is strong, and Apple is on top of security updates, software updates, so they have gained my trust. My Dell desktop just had a heart attack on friday, and my two macs have been unaffected on the same network. I found dozens of viruses and that computer is hardly ever used these days. That is common for my clients as well. They often use both and run into the same issue just more frequently than I have.

Thanks for the feedback, csoulpro.

I have to confess that I've never used a Mac (probably obvious), which is why I value comment from cross-platform users. CR4 is probably the only place to find good discussion on this, and both you and Andy have made good points. People will go with what's 'comfortable' and works for their needs. At present I'm quite happy with XP, though if/when the chance presents itself I'll have a test ride on a Mac. It took me a fair while to get to grip with Windows and, as I think I mentioned, I rarely get any problems. Apart from a recent screw up with e-mail (which I think was triggered by something at the ISP + my own stupidity), the last hassle was when SP3 first came out. In both instances I got it resolved within an hour. The maintenance I have to do with Windows is no big deal (my own preference is to run scans etc whilst I'm on the phone or doing other stuff, rather than schedule it for night).

It's quite true that Windows can be a pain, and that fact that people (like babybear) swap is testament to that. Like any other tool, we use the one that works for us as individuals to get the job done. There isn't really any 'best' argument, since we all have a different notion of which system is intuitive, and what is 'secure'.

I use Windows because it's what was available at the time (WFWG was my first Windows), and inertia is what it is. If I was completely new to computers now, I'd certainly try both Mac and PC before deciding on which I was going to use.

In all probability I'll stay with Windows, though if Microsoft push their luck I wouldn't be averse to changing overnight. The shameless way in which they force people to upgrade may be the thing that nails their coffin, not any debate over virus.

It will be interesting to revisit this thread in a year or two. There's reason to think that faith in PC or Mac could swing either way. The current mutation of the Flu virus is reminder enough for users of either system to keep backups and watch for strange system behaviour.

As the saying goes, 'you pays your money, you takes your choice'. Being aware of the alternatives, plus the pros/cons, is certainly no bad thing. Flexibility, and readiness to adapt, are more important than which system is used at any given time. There's some good info on this thread, which can help people to be in that position.

Hello kris, I am not part of the 'sales team' for Mac. But you did say you were interested to find out more. There 'Flagship Store' as I was told, is in Regent Street London, in the UK. Here is the link and you can check out the different sections of the store and what they can offer. >>>http://www.apple.com/retail/?cid=CDM-US-DM-Mac-C0009198-139707&Email_PageName=C0009198-139707-p4&Email_OID=468483&cp=139707&sr=em <<< Take care..

Thanks bb. I never noticed the place last time I was in the area (only a couple of years ago), but will certainly check it out, hopefully this year.

It's a bit naughty of me to suggest, but the location/style of the store seems to say a lot; Apple have a swanky address that screams style (even though the frontage is just an 1890's facade)

If you want to by a PC, you'd quite likely go to a dingy, crammed looking, place in Tottenham Court Road full of geeks. Of course, whichever option is chosen, on-line is probably the best shopping method, but the retail outlets on a high street seem to reflect design ethos of the product (?). Elegant, expensive, simplicity, versus geek-central. To be fair, Tottenham Court Rd is over-rated these days.

Hello Kris, It does look pretty impressive, with enormous glass stairs and slate floors. I guess you could say it looks like an Apple Mac Page. All clean and tidy? All the Apple Stores are super-modern though not quite on the same scale as the London branch! I do not recall seeing much that was painted in there. They have about twice as much floor space upstairs, or that is how I remember it. Several dozen huge oblong tables is where all the computers and other Mac stuff sits, and you can just find an empty computer and sit dow or stand and try it out. You do not have to buy or even pretend to! I guess they know that anyone in the place will more than likely visit a much smaller local Apple Store in Bluewater or somewhere similar. So a sale of an apple product will happen. It is not likely you will find a 'hardened MS PC addict in there you know? Take care.......................

you can just find an empty computer and sit dow or stand and try it out

Wow - I'm definitely going to visit ! One thing I really hate is pushy salesmen getting in my face. Thanks for mentioning that aspect of their stores. 'look and try' is a great sales approach, far better than some vulture-like suit who just wants to close a sale.

Hi Kris, You may get someone ask two or three times if you are there all day. And you can stay all day as several people I saw did. Mainly school kids using the Day I went up (a Bank Holiday) as an internet cafe outing. As far as I can recall, each computer and other devices are on, and working, and connected to the web where need be or at least have that capability. Take care...................................

Thanks for a clear and concise answer to the question.

I have not owned a Mac for many years, but I have often wanted to. Problem has been that I need to run circuit design and system software which is only available for the PC.

Do I understand your statements correctly, ie, that the Intel processor Macs will run Windows flawlessly? So, I could have, say, two or more hard drives or drive partitions, one with OSX, and another with Windows, and could boot from the appropriate OS as the application demands? If so, I will be looking for a Mac next time I buy a computer, which will be later this year.

Oh, one other question: you also seem to say that, not only will the Mac run Windows stuff, but it will run it better than most PCs. Is that what you meant?

Hope what you say is true, as I would love to have the Mac available for some of the graphics and other uses, while having Windows also possible on the system for my very narrow, technical software which isn't available on the Mac. I thought I would have to buy two complete systems, but would prefer to have one which runs as you have described a Mac system. That way, I can spend the difference in costs on one of the big monitors (I have severe vision limiatations since detached retina(s) cost me 100% of one eye and 25% of the other. I must have exceptional resolution and clarity or I can't use the monitor for more than an hour or so. When I have viewed the large, expensive Mac monitor(s), I have noticed a very distinct improvement in eye comfort and lessening of eye strain. Equivalent sizes of non-Apple monitors, at least the ones I have seen, did not measure up nearly as well as Apple did. It may have been the graphic cards in the PC system; I don't know what they were but I was told they weren't the best....)

regards,

Larry

GA from me.

Your comments fit in with my memories and personal experiences.....

Maybe I should add a little more to my previous post. We started out as raving Mac people for all the reasons you hear about. After a few months of only selling a couple of Mac's, a large company came to us and said they wanted to do business with us and if we wanted to do business with them we would build PC's for them. Being as we really liked to eat we built PC's for them and a lot of others customers. For our greedy economic reasons and liking to eat, we built hundreds of PC's a year. How could we not love the PC? The customer is always right. Right? At least 94% of them think they are right.

You put it in a Nutshell Sir!!!

Hello Andy, Hope you are well? I did not buy my Mac because of the name. I bought it because it was superbly built and is going to be less likely to be troubled by virus. Simple as that. But there is a hell of a lot of 'spin' and 'hyp' about Macs. From the 'stock' picture which it seems every Magazine which publishes articles on Macs must print. Because there is very few pictures of Macs that are not, (I would think) generated by Apple themselves? The same goes for 'word bites'. Like any news station and Politician these are very short and meant to grab your attention. They call the latest Mac Books, something like mono-bodied. When in fact they are made from at least three pieces of Aluminum. I understand what they mean, but it does not make it true! They are careful to point out they are designed in the US, but, as far as I know, they are made in China, or the far East, just as almost all computers are. The same kind of 'word bite' is used in saying the software is designed for the Mac by Apple. You have to listen very carefully hear. They order the Motherboard and chips etc to fit a cabinet they think looks good (it does) and will sell enough to make a profit for the investors. THEN they write the software for it, after first working out the parameters of the hardware of course. So all I am saying is, if you like it and are prepared to pay, then get it. But, do not let the hyp get to you as if it was some kind of magic product. It isn't. It is just a computer. A very well made one, but none the less, a computer. I got one simply because I was tired of getting hit by virus, not because it was my 'fault' because I did not use anti virus. I used it from day one. It was the Anti Virus companies who let me and I am sure many others down by selling something which did NOT stop invasions of almost any kind. That is why I chose a mac Take care and read carefully please. This is my opinion only. I can see through the hyp in any product.

Like your post and I feel I understood your position....

With regard to Anti virus on PCs I would like to mention that you have to stay one ahead of the game, watching all the tests and replacing items that are simply not working as they should.

I went from Symantec to AVG, then to Kaspersky over a period of 5 years or so....Kaspersky is good, but it needs to be supported, like all of them, with other progs....

I recently dumped AdAware and AntiSpy, they stopped finding anything and slowed my PC down....

I now use A-Squared free and Dr Web, they seem to find everything.....rounding off with Registry Fast to keep my registry in good order and jkDefrag to speed up my disks and my RAID system.....all works great.....most are free.....

My PCs I always build myself and can replace any part quickly.......my present has an AMD X2 4400, getting a bit long in the tooth, but fast enough still for what I need and Toshiba Tecra T8(?)with Centrino Dual CPU 2.0 Ghz.

Toshies hardly every go wrong, they just get old.......!!! I have 3 of them laying about of various ages, all still work!!! and still get used......

Hello Andy, Hope you are well? With regard to the anti virus and anti spyware you mention, I have used them all. And, all work for a couple of years then they either ride bad code or, simply do dot update the copies being used, maybe in preference to writing the copy that will be on sale to the computer public the next year? I started off with Norton over ten years ago and it seemed a pretty good app'. Now it is a terrible app' because if, as in my case, I tried to update by un-installing then re-installing, it just will not let you! It is SO BIG and has so many tentacles it was impossible to budge and I just could not get rid of it. No apps' should work like that. You should not have to re-install the complete Windows XP just to get rid of any one particular app! I am surprised anyone still buys it! But then, I suppose there is alway millions of 'new' computer users and they would believe the sales patter? I am taking things slow, as I have not been able to check out any anti virus etc, the last two you mention seem like candidates though. Could not agree with you more when you say Adaware slows down your machine. It is another which can be a bit reluctant to want to leave the 'safety' of your computer. Take care.................

I tried to update by un-installing then re-installing, it just will not let you!

Try using http://www.pcdecrapifier.com when you want to remove crap from your pooter. This will completely remove those buggers lickety split all of it gone.

Hello wire

I have copied and am keeping the apps you mention for when I do feel like trying to 'mend' my old computer. Thanks. I have completely wiped hdd C. And have stored my wanted stuff on hdd D. Though I can only get at it by Linux. I do not know, but would think this should be 'getatable' as the systems are similar? If not I will just have to start again.

It was the email links and names which most important and I have lost one lot of those, thats one copy of all my emails etc, as I copied it onto a 'not quite large enough' usb 'disk. The disk is frozen and the files I 'moved' instead of copying them! Clever eh?

I sent a copy of some or all of the address' to yahoo or googlemail. But I need to study things a little more before I can transfer and hopefully read them.

Take care my friend.................................

Nice to have such a friendly personal note from you. Thanks.

You take care too....

Hello Andy,

Perhaps I should throw in the odd 'asinine' reply? Not sure I can take all these compliments! LOL!

Very much appreciated though, of course. I am still taking things slowly after my personal breakdown, so I hardly want to get into any arguments.

Take care

bb