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Magnetic Fields?

01/13/2010 2:21 AM

I have a question, if you wanted to create a very large magnetic field, could you do so without an electric motor? when I say large, I mean a field as large as a city block...or larger, What besides a very large motor could create such a field? Anything?

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#1

Re: magnetic fields?

01/13/2010 2:57 AM

A big coil of wire around the block. Forget about motors, unless you want to put some big rotating elements in there.

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#2

Re: magnetic fields?

01/13/2010 3:02 AM

But the coil would have to be charged? Right, and that would take allot of electricity, right? so, wouldn't a large electric motor (very large) do the same thing?

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#4
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Re: magnetic fields?

01/13/2010 4:30 AM

The magnetic effects within a motor will largely be confined to the envelope of the motor, which will generally not be large. I don't really know what you are trying to get at here, but so far I can't make much sense of it.

Of course, I was not thinking of a deenergized coil, which would produce no magnetic field at all. Instead, throw as much current to it as the coil's cross-sectional area can withstand.

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#22
In reply to #2

Re: magnetic fields?

01/14/2010 1:57 PM

A motor is designed to convert electrical energy into kinetic energy, using the interaction of magnetic fields. It is very inefficient at creating a magnetic field for any other purpose.

Tornado's idea of a large coil is spot-on. That's the only way to produce a sustained, controllable magnetic field. Since WWII, navy combat ships have had large wraps of copper cable just inside the hull. The cable is energized with DC, creating a magnetic field. The purpose is to hide the steel ship's disturbance of the earth's magnetic field, thus rendering the ship invisible to magnetically-fused mines.

The US Navy recently tested a degaussing system using high-temperature superconducting ceramic cables.

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#3

Re: magnetic fields?

01/13/2010 3:09 AM

The planet Jupiter has a large magnetic field...

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#5
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Re: magnetic fields?

01/13/2010 7:05 AM

The Earth itself is a giant magnet.

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#6
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Re: magnetic fields?

01/13/2010 8:24 AM

The Enterprise two protruding elements in the back of the spaceship are also big magnets. And guess... they have to be energised to build some magnetic field...

Why would someone use an electric motor to build a magnetic field if its purpose is to transform energy to movement with the minimum possible disturbance and field leak? Just use the appropriate equipment to do what you want. Even a small coil compared to the motor could generate more field. Spending les energy, I must enphasize.

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#7

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/13/2010 2:17 PM

A motor wouldn't work (for the reasons already stated). How about a Non-nuclear electromagnetic pulse (NNEMP)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_pumped_flux_compression_generator

It sounds like you are perhaps looking into inductive coupling for the purposes of wireless energy transfer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_charging

What's the application? What's the purpose of the field? Does the field need to be continuous, uniform, what area does it need to cover, what energy transfer rate or field strength do you want, etc

More information is required please!

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#8

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/13/2010 11:41 PM

Get a giant nail, like really huge, or maybe use some rail road tracks that are already there, and rub a huge magnet along its length over and over...

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#9

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/13/2010 11:44 PM

A very large electric motor would not create such a field. As others have said, the field is largely contained within the motor.

You'd get better answers if you explained what you wanted to do with such a field and how strong a field you want to create. If you want something very large, very strong, but brief, (for destructive purposes, typically) you'd want to know about EMP (electromagnetic pulse).

Rather large fields are generated in induction furnaces.

Also, MRI units are famous for their very strong and rather large magnetic fields.

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#10

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/14/2010 12:02 AM

How about a radio transmitter?

Sleeping Grinch didn't say whether he wants a static or alternating field...

Gordie.

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#11

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/14/2010 12:38 AM

I was also thinking 'induction furnaces' - they are pretty powerful...of course you'd have to find away to get the induction to spread out if you want it to be that big...

Really hope you are not planning mass destruction

On induction furnaces, shunts are positioned around the coil to prevent the magnetic field melting the metal structure around the furnace

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#12

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/14/2010 12:46 AM

Well a few things come to my mind. Overhead transmission lines, a large electrical substation, and the HAARP antenna array in Alaska to name 3.

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#13
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Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/14/2010 2:12 AM

My thought too . GA From me.

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#14

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/14/2010 2:44 AM

"..... when I say large, I mean a field as large as a city block...or larger....."

This question has no meaning. Any magnetic field produced by -e.g.- a coil (no matter how small the coil is) extends -theoretically- to infinity (i.e. no matter how far you go the intensity of this magnetic field is not an absolute zero). So, just take a small permanent magnet or activate a small electromagnet and you'll have a huge magnetic field covering a city block or an whole city..... but, of course, having a tiny (but non zero) intensity in the faraway areas..... .....

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#15

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/14/2010 4:18 AM

Hi,

how much volume?

How many Tesla?

Did you visit Sandia Lab's Z-machine?

1 Tesla in air (or similar "nonmagnetic" material) is requiring 800,000 amps per meter of coil length.

Flux density B (measured in Tesla T) equals permeability of vacuum µo

(= 1.2X10exp-6Vs/Am) times current J (in amps) times number of turns n.

B = µo x µrel x H

H is magnetic filed strength in amps per meter of the coil and inside the coil with good approximation equal to J x n.

µrel is the relative permeability of the material inside and around the coil.

1.000+-0.005 for most materials, 100 to 1000 for many steels, 1000 to 100,000 for pure iron and many good soft magnetic materials.

Calculate the power dissipated in this coil (R x J² ), R = resistance in Ohms, and you will see that there is no chance to create big magnetic fields.

Calculate the energy density of the magnetic field and you will see that it may be dangerous at switch on and switch off.

Energy density is E/V = B x H/2µ in J/m³ µ=µo x µrel

Sandia's Z-machine (4 storey building) reached 65 T pulse-wise.

This is transforming any metallic structure to pieces. As magnetic pressure equals B²/2µ.

There are only a few places in our Galaxy where giant magnetic stars exist, 5 or so are known in our Galaxy. Astronomers conclude that at the surface there are flux densities of above 1 million T. SO calculate once more pressure and energy density.

And look into Sci-Am archives about "Magnetars".

RHABE

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#30
In reply to #15

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/17/2010 9:38 PM

RHABE:

I'm weak in this area, but your post peak my interest.

Calculate the energy density of the magnetic field and you will see that it may be dangerous at switch on and switch off.

Would the danger be from the collapsing of the field?

p911

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#34
In reply to #30

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/18/2010 4:53 AM

Hi,

yes you are right,

on switch on you will drain the energy supply and

on switch off the energy will be wasted somewhere: in resistors, as flashes as metallic deformation, finally into heat.

1 Tesla magnetising 1 cubic meter will give (B²/2µo)*V = 1²(Vs/m²)² /(2*1.2*10exp-6Vs/Am)*1m³ or near 400,000 J.

This pretty enough for a high energy weapon. So fast shut down will explode to pieces the whole equipment. But more likely nobody will reach this level of energy-density.

SANDIA has reached 64 Teslas for a very short time in a small volume.

"Magnetars" have above 1 million Tesla at their surface!

RHABE

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#35
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Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/18/2010 10:03 AM

just trouble shoot an automatic process line that made wire coils......an engineer put a high frequency welder right underneath the unsheilded control wiring. When the welder turn on/off created alot of noise in the control lines. Lucky it did not burn anything out.

2 minutes after I arrived, I saw it, I solve it for them, an was gone in 1/2 hour.

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#16

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/14/2010 7:23 AM

Lets not forget nuclear bombs. Short pulse but effective.

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#17
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Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/14/2010 8:58 AM

Hi,

I have no idea what causes magnetic and electric fields by a very fast expanding very hot plasma ball.

Is this to be thought as a fast expanding charged capacitor?

Where are the currents that are needed for a magnetic field?

Or is this "only" electromagnetic waves of extraordinary amplitude?

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#18

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/14/2010 9:25 AM

I'm no electrical engineer, but I was thinking along the lines of some serious huge (and very upscaled) superconducting magnets or coils like those found in Tokamak Fusion Reactors???

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#19

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/14/2010 9:43 AM

Research the work of Nickolai Tesla.

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#20

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/14/2010 11:26 AM

Also if you want to creat a large magnetic field,could you do so without a transformer?

Patrick Whowha

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#21

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/14/2010 12:02 PM

OP: If you are there, please acknowledge the responses you've gotten... should be common sense ettiquette.

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#23
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Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/14/2010 2:47 PM

Its a lot of work to go to just to get your kids off their cell phones... then again, maybe not.

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#24

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/15/2010 1:36 AM

O.K guys...I know, I was vague for a reason. Really what I wanted to know is this. The earths magnetic field extends for thousands of miles out into space, this field protects us from the radiation emitted by coronal mass ejections. This field is strong and is caused by electrical current in the liquid outer core. What I am really trying to figure out is this, would it be possible to use the currents created by the earth? What if we were to drill into the core down to where rock begins to deflect at the north and south poles. In these holes we put in super-conducting materials (or just a long copper rod, much like a ground rod), could the earth not generate more electrical current than we could ever use? My first question was just trying to find out what other than current could cause such a field. Call me insane, but isn't free energy possible for as long as the core is iron, molten and decaying radioactively? Remember you heard it here first.....ZZZGRINCH

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#25
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Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/15/2010 3:00 AM

Maybe yes, but if any such energy is siphoned off, there will be less available for whatever other effects (beneficial or harmful) that the earth's magnetic field might contribute. I don't know all the implications, but I don't think there is any value here.

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#26
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Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/15/2010 3:11 AM

That sounds GREAT in theory...

Mmmm...

I'm also not sure if would be a good idea to mess with the earth's magnetic field like that - there is a fine balance, and we shouldn't mess with it! DISASTER is my thinking...

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#27
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Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/15/2010 3:13 AM

theres a version of this written back in the '80's by Capt. Bruce L. Cath in his book Harmonic 288 (part of my handle).. I believe it is no longer available, but a newer version of the book called Harmonic 695 is. There is a lot of very intriguing reading here. He's the author who first introduced me to Tesla. Some write him off as a crackpot.. but I think he is the real deal.

anyway, he discusses in the book, the testing and applications of metal grids laid on the ground, or shallowly buried, basically antenna, which are able to receive energy from diurnal (and other frequency) electrical energy waves in the ground...

http://www.brucecathie.com/

http://www.worldgrid.net/

Chris

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#28
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Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/15/2010 3:19 AM

That...to me...sounds more viable

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#29
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Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/17/2010 7:36 PM

I've tried similar experiments using bar magnets and could only get changes in resistance, no current. I was able to get more current out of a lemon.

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#44
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Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/28/2010 12:20 AM

In some cases, there are only problems, never solutions. This is such a case. Not even any elementary data or arithmetic, plus a misleading post in the first place. This is one of the biggest no-workies I have ever seen.

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#31

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/17/2010 10:22 PM

By the way, this is almost exactly what Nikola Tesla spent his life attempting to prove. He was convinced it could be done, but despite 50+ years working on it and a BUTT LOAD of OPM thrown into the venture, he was unable to demonstrate it successfully.

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#32
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Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/17/2010 11:19 PM

As I understand it, Nikola Tesla discovered some important things about high-voltage and high-frequency AC phenomena, as well as transient (fault) conditions in electrical circuits. Much of this was rather flashy, and I believe he may have been the prototype for Ayn Rand's John Galt character in "Atlas Shrugged."

But beyond the media-darling hype, Charles P. Steinmetz was probably more instrumental in figuring out three-phase induction motors, and bringing that idea to fruition. We don't hear much about Steinmetz these days, which I deem an oversight.

There was a brilliant play, "A Peek Into the Twentieth Century," built around the conflict between Thomas Edison and George Westinghouse over DC vs. AC. The key character in the play was the first prisoner about to be executed by electric chair (using AC, which Edison dubbed as "the executioner's current"). This play was a tryout at the Seattle Rep around 1990, and I don't know if it ever caught on. The focal character did not object to being executed (being admittedly guilty), but he didn't want to be burned/disfigured in the process.

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#36
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Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/18/2010 10:11 AM

Edison actually ran a traveling road show trying to disprove AC current. This was meant to show the danger of AC by electrocuting stay dogs and other various animals. When this did not produce the results he wanted, he arranged the grand finale. This is where he electrocuted "Jumbo" an old circus elephant.

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#37
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Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/18/2010 2:38 PM

"Jumbo"?

Sure that wasn't Topsy?

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#38
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Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/18/2010 5:25 PM

Yes it was Topsy.

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#33

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/18/2010 2:19 AM

I am not so sure that Tesla ever tried to "plug in" to the earth. I do think its possible, otherwise it wouldn't be possible for the earth to generate the electro magnetic field that it does without producing massive amounts of electricity. This is why there are over six thousand lightning strikes every day. (somewhere on earth) Yes, this ozone cleans the air, but I still believe we have a limitless supply of juice and the gov knows this. However, if they were to allow us to use it, we wouldn't have to defend all those pitiful second and third world countries. Wouldn't it be great if we could be totally free of foriegn energy supplies? Spread this idea around, someone with some serious cash out there just might try it, like a country I know that is broke as hell and sends billions overseas daily to satisfy its energy needs? Wonder who that could be? Later guys....

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#39
In reply to #33

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/26/2010 11:37 PM

I believe that lightning is a by-product of the sun heating the air, not the earth's magnetic field. (is it really only 6000?)

The earth's magnetic field is pretty much static isn't it? I have some fairly powerful magnets but I don't think that sticking wires into them will generate electricity. Of course they don't have molten metal flowing around inside them but I think if you made an earth sized stack of them they'd still generate a strong field. Electricity is generated in coils by changing magnetic fields, not static ones.

Now if you really want to use up the energy inside the earth instead of the sunlight (e.g. windmills, dams, and biomass) then I'd go with geothermal. Much less copper required.

Now if the magnetic poles were on the equator, THEN we could really generate some power. (...and increase the number of hours in a day as well.)

In any case, the reason the government(s) don't want to cut down on fossil fuel consumption is because the alien invaders are small and completely hairless and they like it hot.

Gordie.

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#40

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/27/2010 6:38 PM

O.K. Exactly how many of these replys were from electrical engineers? Listen the molten metal in the core spins, much like the armature in a motor. Wrong? I am not sure, but I dont think so. Also this spinning creates an very strong magnetic field. This field fluxuates much like the field of a motor or generator. The reason that geothermal isn't used is because the cost of drilling to six thousand feet is cost prohibitive. Cheaper to burn oil/cole/natural gas. Thing about my idea is it is limitless. It does create electricity. Yes lightning is partly caused by wind resistance/friction of moisture and positive/negative fields between the air and ground. However, if you ask a scientist to give you a definitive answer, they really cant. If they said that they knew for sure, they would be lying. Because nature/weather is the least known/understood phenomenon left to us. If we understood half of what they claim to understand, we could harness the forces of nature without loosing 90% of the energy. I digress, because I could justify my claim all day and without major funding/research it will never be proven/disproven. Thank you all for your comments....ZGRINCH

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#41
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Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/27/2010 7:31 PM

ZG

O.K. Exactly how many of these replys were from electrical engineers?

I'll bite.....from the responses probably half, myself not included.

But it seems what you were trying to get at is not only a magnetic Field but a stable one also.

is this correct. ?

And to Create this the power needs would be great. Correct?

And second, you would have to control this field, to be able to tap into it.

It seems that you are not getting the answers you seek that will line up with your theories.

Thing about my idea is it is limitless. ideas tend to seem that way

It does create electricity.

cutting perpendicular to a magnetic flux line would do that to.

But like I stated in a earlier post, I am weak in this field, ssooo,

I'll fall back on things I do know and that there is a law that engineers, designers, scientists, physicists and most inventors realize and that is "The Law of Conservation of Energy" that would make alot of seemingly good ideas fall flat.

I hope you find what you are looking for,

good luck,

p911

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#42
In reply to #41

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/27/2010 8:08 PM

I don't deny what the posters are saying. My point is that the magnetic field is NOT the source of the power. What I am saying is that the core is a giant generator that could be tapped. The magnetic field is not stable. It fluxuates on a daily bases. The magnetic field is merely a bi-product of the energy created by the core. I believe that the earth acts much like a giant capacitor and that the "juice" is drained off by electrical storms (maybe) or it is turned into heat which helps keep the nuclear fussion process going in the core. Scientists do not know why the core remains hot. Some say it is due to radioactive decay of elements such as uranium. Which is possible. Some say that the massive amounts of pressure due to the weak gravitational forces keeps it hot. I am not so sure, I believe that the iron core acts like a huge generator and the juice inside the earth is turned into heat. But, I am just a layman, not an engineer, not a scientist. But then again, remember that Einstein was a desk clerk who was kicked out of school twice. So, are great minds limited to the well edjucated? No, because if that were true, then twenty percent of the richest people in the world wouldn't be drop outs....and every edjucated man/woman would be wealthy. I went to college and I found that very few of my proffessors were smart, they were edjucated, but not smart. THere is a difference....later. and thanks for the encouragement....

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#43
In reply to #42

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/27/2010 8:28 PM

My point is that the magnetic field is NOT the source of the power.

The point I was getting at is more at the basis and that is the power required to create the field, whether a by-product or not.

your loses my with the nuclear fusion.....are we talking about the sun now?

But then again, remember that Einstein was a desk clerk who was kicked out of school twice. So, are great minds limited to the well educated?

I look for consistencies, and how I do that is that I'll challenge.

And I agree, ideas can come from anywhere, thats why were you questioning how many were actually electrical engineers.

I went to college and I found that very few of my professors were smart, they were educated, but not smart.

old saying "if you can't do, you teach". but not all professor are impractical.

later,

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#45
In reply to #43

Re: Magnetic Fields?

01/28/2010 5:50 PM

If you look into the science of the core of the earth you will find that some believe that the core is much like fussion in that its heat is generated by the radioactive decay of uranium. However, they also say that the core is molten iron. So which is it? Can compressed iron create fussion? Know one really knows the cause of the heat inside the core. Some say the center of the earth is hotter than the surface of the sun. However, the surface of the sun is cool when compared with the tempreture fifty miles from the surface in either direction, inside or in its atmosphere....But I digress. I was once told that if two libraries were trying to communicate via one paragraph that it is impossible to convey the actuall extent of each others knowledge. Wouldn't you agree? Also, those who cant do and who cant teach end up selling real estate or cars!!!! Ha ha ha ha, thanks for the input by the way. Nothing better than a intelligent conversation with someone who actually thinks about the world instead of accepting it as is.....Later

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#46
In reply to #45

Re: Magnetic Fields?

02/02/2010 11:15 AM

Recent on CR4 to back your hypotheses, I found to be ironic.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/11386/Moon-Possibly-Formed-by-Natural-Nuke-Study

interesting

p911

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