Potable Water in Conjunction with Shipping Containers as Housing

Damn it Garthh, this is the weakest of the links in the whole Micro Infrastructure System of Shipping Container Housing thread.

Getting it off the roof means you need a roof.

Experts tell me that only two percent of the water in the world is potable.

Drinkable water comes from rivers, streams, lakes, reservoirs, and wells.

Rainwater is unreliable.

Water purification systems are not common.

There are buildings in Manhattan that ought to be torn down, not because they are bad buildings, but because the good water coming in is poisoned by the pipes.

Control of the oil in the world has caused a few wars, but control of water that you can drink, is going to be a bigger issue, since we can still walk, but can't drink oil.

Those who have worked on figuring out how to provide clean water, and water systems deserve a great deal or respect, and notice.

Potters for Peace have some systems that seem promising, and others on the site have put forth links to others.

I can't name the best and so here say, others know more, but I do say it is a pivotal concern for any shelter or home to succeed, for without it, no life is possible.

I was influenced by a severe drought that happened around where I live in NC. It was so bad not even dew happened on the grass of the mornings.

The reasons for the unreliability of rainwater you mention do make it unreliable, since I expect ICEs to continue in the factors.

Hence, essentially we are looking at situations that demand treatment, or protection of all water.

Urbanization has reached a point globally that will not be reversed, though there is a movement in India to do so.

It did not work out for the Chinese, as I think Mao was all for that.

Concentrations of individuals in urban settings are very efficient and even greener than sprawl that demands that workers have cars to adapt to changing locations for their work places.

The electrical grid is one thing, and roads are another, and then there is the issue of water.

I do maintain that it is the weakest and least understood link in our discussions.

Ironically potable water is a commodity which Haiti exports in great quantity. It's a product their one main river which forms in the highlands and then passes into the Dom/Rep but when it returns to Haiti the river has lost most of it's vigor...

Thanks Bwire & C-W for the SSF links!

I already had many of the publications, but not the links to some of the products out there today. I'll be checking them out.

In case you didn't know, my MS Environmental Engineering Thesis dealt with studying THM Precusor Removals in SSF Beds Utilizing a GAC Intermediatary Imbedment Layer Within A Filter Sand Cores. Surprising very good results when the GAC layer is above 0.5 feet in thickness, but above 0.75 feet thickness is a waste of money.

If one make a frame of about twice the size of the container and have i suspended horizontally about 500mm above the top. You then put canvas over it with a collection point in the centre.

This will help in providing some needed shade and will accumulate some potable water. At about 5 square meter per person 5 litres can be obtained from each mm of rain.

It mat not be enough but will reduce the (portable) volume that must be pumped or transported to the site.

Hendrik-

When you consider the fact that Haiti just received 17" of rain in less than 24 hours (before the rainy season has even started), you need a pretty big opening...

CW and I and you are in agreement as far as your post here is concerned.

Tornado,

you are on point for filters.....I use one from REI for camping and filtering stream water never had a problem with Montzuma's revenge or anything else,

CW is correct if done correctly will work, also look at the following I posted on the container site:

www.dekaresearch.com and look for the Slingshot water system from Dean Kamen then look at www.zanaqua.com they make a slightly larger unit and will handle grey water etc.....only problem is the 1995-1999 USACE water report that no one in the UN ,IOM or USAID/FEMA have read and its 2010...salinity is becoming a huge problem there like in Florida..to much withdrawal a the ocean back flows into the aquafer.

So ongoing need for water treatment and waste recover, not just bottled water since Jan 16th everyday from Atlanta and 250,000+ per day distributed...what to do with the plastic now discarded...read millions of 2liter palstic bottles?.

Geoff Daly NH

Bwire just posted a link to a US Army Water Assessment for Haiti and other such documents in Post 916 in the original thread, for those interested in the existing situation with water in Haiti...

http://www.eoearth.org/article/Water_profile_of_Haiti

http://www.sam.usace.army.mil/en/wra/Haiti/Haiti%20Water%20Resources%20Assessment%20English.pdf

http://econgeol.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/45/2/127

Economic Geology; March 1950; v. 45; no. 2; p. 127-141; DOI: 10.2113/gsecongeo.45.2.127

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Citing ArticlesCiting Articles via Google ScholarGoogle ScholarArticles by Taylor, G. C.Articles by Lemoine, R. C.Search for Related ContentGeoRefGeoRef CitationWater-resources reconnaissance of Île de la Gonâve, Haiti Add to marked items Add to shopping cart Add to saved items Permissions & Reprints Recommend this articleJournalHydrogeology JournalPublisherSpringer Berlin / HeidelbergISSN1431-2174 (Print) 1435-0157 (Online)IssueVolume 12, Number 2 / April, 2004CategoryReportDOI10.1007/s10040-003-0309-xPages224-236Subject CollectionEarth and Environmental ScienceSpringerLink DateThursday, March 04, 2004

Ground-water geology of the Gonaives plain, Haiti

George Carroll Taylor, and Remy C. Lemoine

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w1n4ewfyyn54k95a/

CaptMoosie-

You make some very valid points about long term requirements. However, you ignore one very important factor- the 1.2 million people without appropriate housing need water TODAY. They do not have time to wait for a state-of-the-art system. Rain catchment systems, although less than perfect, offer the advantage of providing relatively good water with minimal treatment/filtration requirements. There are those among us here that have personal experience with such systems, and have lived quite well with the results. While this may not be an ideal solution, it is a whole lot cheaper than flying in 1.2 million 2-liter bottles of water per day...This is not a long-term solution (although experience should tell us that the locals are likely to adopt short term solutions for the long term). We are looking at a minimum of 10 years of effort required to bring the infrastructure back up to some semblance of modern standards, and that is assuming no more earthquakes and mild hurricanes. This is for others to address. What is needed now is an emergency water supply, which may or may not meet all of the currently accepted standards for water quality...

A side note on this blog- this is a brainstorming session. The most important rule for brainstorming is no one should criticize any idea put on the table, no matter how far-fetched or pie in the sky it might be. All contributions, whether viable or not, are acceptable because some wild idea could possibly be the seed that starts the thought process in the right direction for someone else. Down the road, one filters the ideas for the best solutions.

C-W, possibly you have misinterpreted some of what I wrote down. I said go ahead with the Rainfall Catchment scenario with FILTRATION and CHLORINATION as a stop gap measure.

FOR STARTERS: I'll point you and fellow bloggers in the right direction. Obtain a copy of the Latest Edition of the "Ten State Standards" and employ a variation of the media bed usually installed within a "SLOW SAND WATER FILTRATION" plant. If you cannot obtain one from some of the peeps in the CR4 Forum or a web venue, than ask me for a copy and I'll gladly scan the applicable pages and email them to you. The modern variation of Sand Sand Filter is the only multi-media filter known to filter out both Cyrptosporidium and Gardia Lambia (also known as "Beaver Fever") as long as the filter is properly built and maintained, together with a well established and healthy Schmutzdecke (biomass atop the uppermost sand filter layer in the Supernatant). Also of great importance is the raw water application rate and that it is applied to the filter bed within a narrow flow rate per unit Area of filter bed. Normally, several back-to-back runs of pilot plant studies using the proposed filter media to used from a "SOLE SOURCE" (all sands and gravels are not created equally based on numerous factors) must be conducted to determine the ultimate design or optimum water application rate (Gallons per day per square foo....GPD/SF)/ Also of vital importance is not to make the filter bed too small or narrow because of the strong happenstance of hydraulic blow-by of the untreated raw water (supernatant above the filter bed) past the filter media along the containment vessel walls. This is a quite common occurrence with narrow filter beds, especially with very smooth side surfaces. You will need to have flow rate control for both the supernatant application rate and the filtrate removal rate....not an easy proposition n a third world country, but it can be done with small mechanical battery operated turbine flowmeters, as long as you have a way to modulate the flow rates (possibly with full-ported ball valves) and no less than 10 pipe diameters equivalent of straight upstream pipe unimpeded or interrupted by bends. reducers and valves or what have you. Ditto downstream of turbine meter, but no less than 5 pipe diameters straight pipe.

Too bad that the American Slow Sand Association is now defunct as that would have been of great benefit to y'all.

I can help with the necessary calculations regarding minimal chlorination application rate with it comes time for that...the know filtrate flow rate needs to be established first.

PS: you're going to need to impound the collected rainwater using some sort of flow equalization tank large enough to collect several successive high intensity rain storms because of the very high rates of flow you will experience during the collection of the water, otherwise you will have spillage and water waste......you will slowly release this water to the filter bed(s) at the prescribed filter bed application rate. I strongly suggest that you use no less that 3 parallel filter beds in operation at any given time in the event that you need to take a single filter bed out of commission for maintenance and servicing....

Capt-

I have a copy of the Ten State Standards now- thank you. As another aside, as a resident of a "3rd World Country" (Panama) with supposedly state of the art water treatment facilities (originally designed and built by the US Panama Canal Commission and Army Corps of Engineers), experience tells me that PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE is the key to maintaining the viability of the system, and this is generally a foreign concept in these societies...Whatever system is ultimately implemented needs to be as simple as possible, because, with time, it will most likely degrade due to a lack of maintenance (not necessarily due to a lack of technical expertise- more related to a lack of operating capital...)

C-W:

Can't get any simpler than Slow Sand Water Filtration when it comes to design, construction, maintenance and filter bed cleaning & rejuvination......

beers and cheers!

One other issue- most likely the water distribution system and waste collection system are in dire need of repair- mostly due to poor initial construction (inadequate depth, improper bedding, inadequate thrust blocks, etc). Again, observations based on experiences in this sort of environment. Also, the latest outbreak of Crypto that I know of in the US resulted from downstream contamination of treated water- broken pipe allowed ingress of untreated waste water...Some of the reasons I favor localized collection and filtration collection. Also, the nastier pathogens are not airborne, and crypto and giardia and cholera are not likely to contaminate properly stored rain water in the short term. Most common biological contaminants in stored rain water are algae and mosquito larvae- a whole nother issue...

C-W,

For the time being I wouldn't worry too much about the crypto and Giardia, unless it's officially reported to the medical officials on the ground in Haiti.....I'm quite sure that the WHO, the CDC, and International Red Cross are closely monitoring all sorts if diseases currently. I'd be more worried about what can be transmitted by dirty hands and bodily fluids (coughs and sneezes and urine) of people near the water source, and from urine/droppings from a whole host of critters: birds, snakes, lizards, mice and rats, cats, monkeys, bats, fox, bugs of all types, snails, and just about anything else that walks, crawls and slithers.

What other mammals are found on Haiti???? La Chupracabra??? *LOL*

Remember, water is life and all of the above will seek out a plentiful supply of water no matter where it is located, day and night. When it comes to water cleanliness, I rule nothing out when it comes to critter's ability to foul things up, especially in the tropics....rule of thumb is always chlorinate. I know that no everybody likes the taste, but it's better than getting sick or worse, dead. Wind can pick up and blow soil around, and within that speck of dirt you'll find a whole host of pathogens and parasites, even E. Coli. After experiencing two weeks of intensive Jungle Survival Training in Panama Imus and in Honduras under USA Southern Command, I rule out no critters getting into drinking water...even up here in the Adirondacks....I always carry Bromide disinfection tabs whenever hiking or backpacking in the mountains, especially if I know I'll have to replenish the water in my canteens.

To play it safe I rule out nothing and insist on "cleanliness is next to Godliness" when it even comes down to Water Treatment Operators being screened medically for health related diseases, including open sores and infections. Remember that Haiti has a very high AIDS rate, not to mention a sky high Herpes and Hepatitis (all types) rates......actually many more communicable and infectious diseases than you can shake a stick at...and it will get worse before it gets better a virtual cesspool of germs and parasites and nasties that'll grow under your skin or in your gut), therefore, no one is to touch the water physically, unless previously screened and approved to do so....."MY RULES".

Absolutely correct, CaptMoosie- we have to deal with the reality that exists...By the way, for the rain water systems I do here in Panama, I prefer ozone to chlorine- keeping the water circulating and continuous injection. Not only sanitizes, keeps the pH neutral...I suspect not a good solution for Haiti, though...

I prefer ozone to chlorine- keeping the water circulating and continuous injection. Not only sanitizes, keeps the pH neutral...I suspect not a good solution for Haiti, though...

Agree. The lack of residual for ozone makes it unreliable unless well maintained and used in a good system. Downstream contamination is likely in Haiti and any other under developed country.

Haitian systems will almost certainly be decrepit, poorly maintained, damaged and otherwise of suspect quality, while the environment breeds nasties at the drop of a hat.

Chlorine is a far safer choice.

On the plus side (if there is one), the healthy people are likely to have a good immune system!

CaptMossie,

Corect..slow water sand filtration is best way...used for many years in UK by major water companies in huge rectangular filter reservoirs....drain every few months scrap out sand ..clean and replace and use....cheap to operate and who cares if birds did poop in them...still went through a final sanitization cycle (UV, Chlorine usually)...did take up space but worked well over more than 100years, even the Dutch and Germans used.

Slow sand filtration is a dying art and industy since centrifuges, RO elements and special replaceable filter banks and Ion exchange resins....another industry and money making.

Geoff Daly NH

GA Moosie.

We can, however, concentrate on provision of potable water in the short term during emergencies.

This phase of water supply seems to be virtually past in Haiti.

Water and food distribution seem reasonable now, but throwing around ideas for use in the future can still be productive.

The obvious one is supply of chlorination tablets to purify all water, as it must all be regarded as suspect in emergency situations. Water may taste yuck, but it won't kill you.

At the same time, the pottery type personal filters can make the chlorine more effective (by removing solid scunge) and some may even get out cells of the larger bacteria.

Crude sand filters can be improvised, again to remove solids. This is a slightly better version of digging in the sand beside a pool of dirty water to obtain clean water. Results will only reliably remove suspended solids. Bacterial removal, if it occurs, would be a bonus and improve chlorine effectiveness.

As long as we concentrate on interim, improvised methods of improvement, we can still be useful. (Some of us old fossils may well have a need to feel useful!).

Longer term solutions need to be properly engineered, not cobbled together by amateurs.

However, by following this thread I can learn.

Please be patient with us.

My last experience in this area was over 30 years ago.

I'm posting the links below for all the various threads from

CR4 a International engineering forum sponsored by

Global Spec http://www.globalspec.com/

Be aware that CR4 is an open forum where even guests can post.

The conversation can & does go off topic from time to time, which is all part of the open design process...

Please feel free to join in any & all of the discussions

The original thread Shipping Container Housing is over 900 posts long

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/49244#newcomments

We started four threads for more detailed discussions after it became clear the original thread was getting too long

How to Install & Anchor Shipping Container Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50522#newcomments

Methods For Installing Doors & Windows In Shipping Container Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50523#newcomments

Drainage, Sanitation & Other Issues Related To Shipping Container Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50525#newcomments

Potable Water In Conjunction W/ Shipping Container as Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50537#newcomments

The new Blog started by Clemson University:

http://www.seed-haiti.net/?page_id=2

Please feel free to contact me should you need any help with any of CR4's features

mark

Here is some water we could tow to Haiti. maybe dampen the hurricanes too.

(even though it is probably bigger than the whole island.)

Chris,

How big is your tug boat for B9B...is 60 miles long by 23 miles wide and about 65 million tons of frozen ice.....could raise the Caribbean about 3 feet as it melted...but great idea to use as a CLEAN water source.

Lets try Capt Moosies idea of Slow Sand idea place in a series of coated containers joined together or dig a big pit and line with Concrete Canvas, then the sand. Capt Mossie has the books on the depth design and water take off etc...not rocket science luckily and also generates jobs digging/cleaning the sand every so often. Just sequence the ponds as they deteriorate ....may need 15 to 20 50,000,000 gallon ponds....about 42 hectares needed plus the pump/filter/treatment building on about 5 hectares.....then use tank trucks to fill the Frac tanks in the local communities...ensures good water for all on a regular basis and makes jobs.

Could even find used mech equipment frOm Europe used for this purpose.

Water will be the new OIL in the future...but luckily that area gets good rain....maybe they could capture and bulk tanker it to other nations?

Capt Moosie can you draw up a sketch and maybe scan and send to Chrisg288?

Geoff Daly NH

well I didn't hold back from proposing ideas that aren't engineered yet, in the original Shipping Container thread.. so I won't here.

First I came across what I believe is a larger water bladder manufacturer.. although the technology is the same.

http://www.pronal.com/en/fuel,handling,system.php

Secondly, what really got me thinking was when I remembered a technology that was proposed for oil tankers a few years ago (can't find links) but that was the notion of a semi-submerged flexible (huge bladder) tank full of oil. (if anyone knows where to find the info, I'd appreciate it.)

My idea is to create a type of massive bladder type submerged water tanker that could fill up with fresh water, and then tow (tugboat?) that potable water to a beachhead location at a site such as Haiti, and then pump the water on demand to on-shore bladders such as that above for emergency relief.

hope that makes sense.

If there is enough demand in the world (rising number of crises in the world?) then more tankers could be created. something like a nuclear powered carrier would be great.. but wouldn't have to be armour plated and have all the technology a carrier has.. just need to be able to transport (tug) huge volumes of water like a super large oil tanker at about 50 million gallons.

one trip with such a craft would certainly help the Haitians with their water problems, and if the tanker is largely submerged and flexible, would be able to survive hurricanes I think.

Chris

Charlie,

that sounds fascinating. Where does the water come from?? do you mean that the ships that show up are carrying it, and dump it in order to lighten their load??

Chris

JUST FYI & OFF TOPIC:

Chris, the loss of fresh water occurs with each opening and closing of each lock as a ship makes way through them.......nearly all the water comes from the large lake (name escapes me for the moment) at the very highest elevation of the lock and canal system....most of the water replenishing the lake comes from rainfall within the lake's fairly large watershed that includes the mountains in central Panama...the water, once it leaves the lock (when a ship is lowered to the next level and the gates opened) or escapes and makes its way down the canal to the next set of locks and eventually it finds its way either into the Atlantic or the Pacific, all depending on which way (direction) it started its journey from the lake. It's all done by gravity feed with no pumping involved whatsoever. Quite clever, actually ingenious!

God forbid if central Panama ever experiences a multi-year drought, as they'd have to close the canal system. That's why there's bee pushes to construct a newer wider Panama Canal that's at sea level all the way. It personally think that idea is flawed because you'll have sea life emigrating from one ocean to the other unchecked that don't belong in the other's sea.......Frankly, it'd be an ecological disaster in the making. Plus it'd cost a fortune no one country could afford these days and not like the late 1890's and early 1900's when the original canal was built by the USA (forget the French try at it...total failure).

Capt. Moosie-

Just for your information, there has already been significant species migration through the existing canal, even though the canal is fresh water, and the new species showing up on the Pacific side from the Caribbean are salt water species. I don't have enough information to say whether there is a migration in the other direction or not...

C-W,

Thanks for the information. I was unaware of the sea life from the Caribbean showing up in the Pacific. Kinda odd that the "traffic" is one-way ya know. Possibly due to species in one ocean not being able to tolerate higher (or lower) salinity in another ocean, or vice-versa? Just postulating,so I'll leave that guess work and investigation to the scientists that know best! Maybe some of the ships have hitchhikers, probably in the bilge water???

Not surprised with the outcome on the lake due to land development. It's truly sad to see such events happening, but that's pretty much Status Quo for pretty much of the world as well, developed countries or not. Thank goodness the USEPA and the states have laws on the books regarding land development and erosion control. Now, all they have to do is enforce it!!!! Politics as usual and it's "not what you know but who you know" as the governing principal.

It really ticks me off that it happens. Concerning land development, as a PE i've found that the powers that be reviewing my subdivisions and commercial land development projects make me jump through a whole series of hoops, frontwards and backwards, to ensure that erosion controls measures and flooding prevention devices and constructs are shown on the project plans and built into the project during and after construction. Yet, during construction you'll not see a single regulatory agent ever visit a project site to ensure that the Contractors are doing what they're suppose to regarding the installation and continued maintenance of the preventative measures. What a piece of crock! Yet they'll turn to me as the professional to enforce their laws. Well it isn't my job to do so and rarely do the Developers want to pay the professional to be there 24-7 with oversight staff to babysit the Contractors, unless the municipality having jurisdiction has implemented Construction Escrow Accounts (as a part of a comprehensive zoning laws and subdivision regulations) that must be paid into by the developers before a single shovel strikes the earth. That's a rare town, village or city, even in this state, that have those requirements by passed resolution, although it's becoming more widespread. Problem will always be money, lawyers, greed and politics playing too much a role in land development environmental issues. Maybe Panama should start implementing such escrows on land developers around the lake to prevent the problems becoming more widespread and possibly diminishing them? I don't know about the politics and land use laws down there, whereas you'd have a better handle on that. It's truly sad to see the canal system deteriorating to a state that it's in now.....plus 100 years age doesn't help matters any!!!

Excellent description. I went through there in 1979--Lago Gatun, if memory serves.

Collecting the water would not require closing the Canal; on the contrary, it requires cycling the locks. So CWarner's idea could work, on the Caribbean side anyway.

Geoff, C-W, et All,

Sorry I haven't been online much the past few days.....just spent the better part of the last 2 hours trying to catch up on developments in several of the blogs.

Glad to see that our team is coming up to bat with it's visit to Haiti Monday (?). If there is any sort of technical questions that arise during their visit I'd be more than glad to help, especially with water, wastewater and solid waste issues + any container issues.

Geoff, I'll see what I can find around here to scan and send to Chris. I can't promise much since most of my older records area shambles due to last years flood in the basement/ Many of my older paper documents and plans had to be tossed out due to being totally destroyed by the water, then the mold issue arose and really put a damper of salvageable. I do have a ton of records on Iomega Zip discs, but the problem is none of my PC's and laptops feature a Zip drive now days! Opsss! I don't even own an exterior Zip Drive, which of course would have help immensely. Some drawing details are on CD, but I'm afraid none of them feature Slow Sand Water Filtration plant plans, sections and details...ditto with the old floppy drives too.

It's going to take me a huge effort to go through the myriad of cardboard office storage boxes and plastic tote boxes to see what I do have left.....right now it's all stacked-up on wooden pallets almost as high as the basement ceiling, mixed in with about 1,500 plastic airplane models (my collection)!

One thing about slow sand is that you absolutely MUST have the correct sand and rounded stone media to make it work properly......as in low acid solubility, right shape, sizes (gradations). same with the stone. If I remember correctly, most of the geology in Haiti features limestone deposits, which I doubt very much would pass the stringent filter media standards, so you will have to ship it all in from say, upstate NY OH or MI where I know there are ample stockpiles of tested and approved materials. You will need at least 4 or 5 different sand media deposits (layers) alone. Same with the stone media layers. Larger stone at the bottom with the underdrain system that supports the next smaller sized stone media, and so on and so on.

Another thing about SSF is that the plumbing of the galleries, intakes, bed overflows and supply headers, and filter bed filter bed underdrains. None of it is simple. Hydraulic Head Loss calculations ARE IMPERATIVE, so you just cannot throw it into a trench and glue together PVC pipe sections and fitting and hope that it all works. Also, you need small diameter, inline low-flow high-accuracy insertion type flow meters on each and every raw water feed line entering each bed and well as on the filtrate headers leaving the filter beds....and each must be tied into an individual digital totalizer that can also read & display instantaneous flow rate.....BED INLOW = BED OUTFLOW...so you need electrical power for this equipment alone. not to mention the master meter/pulser that will drive the Chemical Injection equipment/pumps for sodium hypochlorite injection prior to discharge to the clear wells. You need the clear wells to establish the requisite chlorine contact time as well as for storage of the finished water. Clear wells must be sealed off to prevent contamination from insects, birds and BATS!!!!!

I did have a construction plantset (reduced scale) approved by the New York State Health Dept Bureau of Water Supply for a 80,000 GPD plant located north of Utica. That plant cost approximately $1.8 Million USD in Fiscal Year 2,000. Most of the cost is for cast-in-place reinforced concrete work, precast prestressed hollow-core concrete roof planks, followed by the sand and stone media costs. Piping is relatively inexpensive compared to the concrete work. I don't think you could build a successful SSWF Plant without the concrete work.....forget the talk about sink holes. you need absolute stabile foundations and earthworks for any plant due to the enormous water loading......we're talking about a water column in the filter beds alone of approximately 16-17 feet in depth (from the top of the concrete floor of the filter bed up to the water surface level of the supernatant (raw water)).

Another major factor to content with in SSF is the relatively small application flowrate applied to each and every filter bed......the typical range that I've dealt with in designs (based on Pilot Plant studies and analysis of the raw data) is 50 to 100 GPD/SF. This requirement generates huge filter bed areas!

Obviously, that eats up a ton of real estate in one great big hurry! And for every 2 filter beds online and working, you need to have a third one provided that'll be in the down mode undergoing normal maintenance as well as sand scraping or wet-harrowing to clean-up and rejuvenate the Schmutzdecke biological layer in the upper 2 inches of the filter sand.

An example:

Okay, if you need to provide an Average Daily Demand of say 5,000,000 Gallons Per Day (GPD) of treated water (finished chlorinated potable water) to a population of 100,000 people (100,000 Capita x 50 GPCD Average Daily Consumption), and used a Filter Bed Raw Water Application Rate of 50 GPD/SF (figure the raw water is very dirty and very biologically active), then you need no less than 100,000 SF of filter beds that are online at any given time. You must also provide no less than another 33,000 SF of filter bed that'll be offline for maintenance. This is a very real number. During the summertime temps in upstate NY, the filter runs were 2 months maximum between filter cleaning....most however were averaging about 1.5 months......which is very labor intensive I might add!

So in order to provide water for basic necessities for a population of 100,000 people at a rate of 50 GPCD (which is really low per US standards////should really use 75 to 100 in a developing nation with no established manufacturing, dairy or food processing etc.), you'd need a total of 134,000 SF of flat land or 3.1 Acres NEXT to a Viable raw ware reservoir that is PROTECTED and whose watershed is equally PROTECTED.

As you can see, to provide the Haitian population of 9 Million + persons no less than:

Req. Filter Bed A = ((9,000,000 Capita x 100 GPCD)/50 gpd/sf) x 1.333 = 24 Million SF or 551 Ac.

And don't forget about planning for continued population increases, tourism growth, future development and manufacturing, and lastly, fire flow requirements. Then you have to provide reservoirs large enough to store the finished water........that's billions and billions of water to get the country through a dry spell each year.

In retrospec, I don't seeing Haiti using Slow Sand Water Filtration because they don't have the available vacant land for filtration beds or ponds nor the long term storage volumes....doesn't make sense to filter the water then disinfect it only to throw it back out into an open reservoir where it will most likely become contaminated once again. So, you'll need fairly large reservoirs with HDPE liners and floating covers. Also, I don't think they'll have the correct sand and stone filter materials to make specification, which is very stringent. Ditto with providing the amounts of concrete necessary t build the plants.

Eventually go with several desalination plants instead, even if the principal cost are high to begin with....funding through the UN or whatever. Whatever is needed and eventually provided long term is not going to be easily afforded let alone a technically easy fix and will most likely take 10 to 15 years to fully implement....see the USACE Report!!!!

Geoff-

Excellent analysis, although, from my experience here in Panama, your estimates of consumption are pretty low- even 75 GPM per capita per day is low (but Panama is not Haiti, for sure). The major issue in this part of the world is going to be maintenance. In Panama, due to the age of the infrastructure and the lack of maintenance, only about 50% of the potable water produced actually reaches the end user, according to some estimates.

My experiences with RO in this part of the world are also discouraging- again, maintenance being the primary issue. RO systems are very maintenance-intensive and require a pretty high level of technical expertise to operate efficiently. Another issue that has been raised on occasion about RO water is that the lack of mineral content in the water may actually have detrimental health effects- I don't know how valid that is, but I do know RO water has no taste! The rainwater systems I do here in Panama provide better-tasting water, even though the mineral content in rain water is low as well...

I removed one of your "off-topic" marks because I see some very valuable information in your dissertation...

Hello C-W,

Yes, you are right that my Avg. Daily Demand per Capita value of 75 GPCD is low. I was only using a number thrown in to illustrate what size filter beds would be required even at that number. In actual Design, I'd probably not use anything less than 150 to 200 GPCD to account for waste and losses, and since this is a 3rd World country that will not have the monetary means to go out and fix every leak in the distribution system + theft losses. Of course the aforementioned ADD would not include water production rates for producing a fire flow demand (FFD) or volume or any reserve demands or storage volumes. One thing to keep in mind is that whatever the system-wide storage scenario for the entire nation (in the Future), whether it is for elevated tanks or low profile reservoirs you should ideally store at least 2 or 3 days worth of Average Daily Consumption Volumes + maximum Fire Flow Demand Volume of no less than 6 hours + a Reserve volume + loss volumes. So, how do you do that with scattered rainfall collection over the entire nation....that's a lot of infrastructure to tie together later on + pump it if there no means by gravity assist to get up into the elevation tanks on the hills? I only see rainfall collection being satisfactory during the interim, but not a long term solution for the entire nation, and God, we all know the entire population's infrastructure ought to be brought into the 21st Century...even with or without bells and whistles attached. It be a damn crying shame to miss this oppurtunity to provide them even the most basic but reliable and low-maintenance water and wastewater facilities that money can buy, especially with the entire world contributing Billions of Dollars in relief and restoration aid!

We all have to remember that we need to provide potable water for at least 9 million people in the interim, and more later because of their population growth, unless they can somehow reduce their reproduction rate. I somehow doubt that that will happen anytime soon; this is afterall a predominately Catholic country (with Voodoo mixed in), so I don't htink it'll happen until they wake-up and smell the coffee and stop listening to the Vatican BS about birth control (and I'm a Catholic too.....so strike me down Lord.....LOL)

Granted, RO systems traditionally are very energy intensive and maintenance intensive, but there are several types of producing potable fresh water from ocean water in the Desalination Process. Haiti is sort of blessed with being practically surrounded by ocean, so might as well use that water since the current aquifers as shot to hell with salinity and contamination intrusion.....well, they will be for the near term until the nation is reforested and the aquifer are recharged + wellhead/watershed/aquifer recharge area protection zones are eventually established.

There is a new Desalination process developed by the Civil Engineering Dept. at New Mexico State University (NMSU) that is low energy dependant, to the point where I'd say thermal solar energy could be harnessed in the water processing. It involved applying a partial vacuum on the saline water. I haven't gotten into checking out the NMSU website yet to fully understand the dynamics of the process. Additionally, it appears to me that this system is fairly simple compared to traditional Desalination processes, and the water boiling point is lowered because of the vacuum and demineralization processes occurring. It also appears that a plant in Hawaii may be using this process or a hybrid Desalination process thereof right now and is online:

http://www.nmsu.edu/~ucomm/Releases/2007/may/desalination_project.htm

If the issue is RO taste, that can be easily rectified by blending pumped groundwater from the existing wells with the Desalinized water.

Frankly, I don't see rainwater providing enough actual potable water for a population of over 9 million souls. It's just not sustainable. God, what would happen to that nation if it is hit by a multi-year drought or less rainfall. It happens all around the globe, year after year. To me, use what you have an abundance of, and that seawater.

Just thought you ought to know.......have a great sunny day!

I agree with you on trying to supply rain water for a large population- even a small population...My best installations are designed around a storage capacity of less than 50,000 gallons- primarily up-scale single family residences. My largest has a capacity of 12,000 to 15,000 gallons per day, relying on a preliminary natural reservoir (no agricultural facilities nearby) which requires a bit more filtration than the others and I use chlorine for treatment rather than ozone, with a final charcoal filter that really cuts down on the taste of chlorine. I want to convert that system to ozone as well, but can't convince the owner to spend the money.

Some of my upscale customers can use up to 450 gallons per person per day- swimming pool, green grass in the dry season, etc...I usually design around 150-200 gallons per person, then add in for the swimming pool. It's amazing how much water can evaporate from a swimming pool in a single day, even with relative humidity north of 80%! The plus side is, when the cistern runs dry, you can drink the pool water...

I make it a point to give GA's to people who go dig up reference material. All you have to do now is prove that you are a person! okay fine...ga

(and find pictures for the "Caption This" threads as well!)

Chris

The water comes from what was once the largest man-made lake in the world, kept topped off by phenomenal rains most of the year. One problem is that the same reservoir is used to provide drinking water for about one third of Panama's population, and for generating about 60% of the power consumed in Panama. During the dry season, they sometimes have to limit the allowable draft of ships passing through the canal (to lessen the amount of water required), and switch to diesel-powered generators to ease the draining of the reservoir. They are also starting to have trouble with water quality in the lake, especially for drinking- development is infringing on the original water shed, which means trees are being cut down which means the reservoir is silting up, which means not only is the water getting muddier, the capacity of the reservoir is decreasing...

GA Chris!

But have you ever tried to move or tow a water-bed full of water over the floor (in our case it'd be the ground or beach)....can't be budged! LOL

The super bladder would have to be at least a double-wall type, otherwise one small hole or a tear will contaminate the fresh water with saltwater.

Just wondering what the forward momentum would be of the travelling bladder....how far it would travel or coast to a stop, and would it strike the rear of the tow ship? It'd be like a great big "soft" Iceberg striking the tanker or carrier from behind. Can you image the Bill Crosby"Jello" effect that would occur????? What would the force be involved in such a collision? YIKERS!!!! LMAO

THAT'S IT!!!! PUMP FRESH WATER AND GELATIN INTO THE BLADDER AND MAKE JELLO FOR THE ENTIRE NATION OF HAITI! BUT WHAT FLAVOR????? LOL THERE'S GOT TO BE A CONCENSUS ON THIS ONE FROM THE HAITIAN PEOPLE! HEHEHEHHEHE

Hi Captain.. in my sketch I show (although it isn't clear) a bunch of long cylinders, hoping to avoid the effect you noted, and to minimize the loss from a single puncture. No reason they can't be smaller units, even like the one shown in the top pic, and just lash a hundred together as a raft. The water pressure of the ocean helps keep them mostly contained too as the water pressure increases 1 atmosphere for every 33 feet of depth. (I think thats the numbers) so anything underwater has inward forces acting.

as for double wall, I like the idea, but it definitely complicates things and I would tend to go with the 'cellular' approach. We can even make Jello in Red Blue and Green.. national colors!

the other idea I had was to have a 'hard' nose and tail with many pipes to form the a ship configuration. Both the nose and tail could have engines and positioning type thrusters for steering and control. The long pipes could be water pipes that get run up on to land when you arrive at destination. The nose or tail system could contain the water pumps. The cellular or long tubes of fresh water would be pre-connected to the primary flange for easy unloading, The pipes keep the ship connected and the empty bladders contained when or if returning empty. although they might have to be filled with salt water.

Chris

Chris

Chris,

look at www.modutank.com

they make nice quickly and easily rectable/potrable tanks.

Geoff Daly NH

Talking short term potable water, I was under the impression that most of the larger ships (and especially the military) involved at Haiti had substantial desal plants on board. The challenge might be more simple changed to how to recycle the plastic containers that are already there and refilling them from the on-board supply.

This to be used for "potable" activities.

Water for "sanitary" and other non-potable uses could be sourced from collected rainwater.

Also, what was the level of treatmetn the population was using/receiving prior to this event? Are we falling into the pit of trying to provide them with an output representative of 100 years of infrastructure development, creating an expectation that they will not be able to sustain once the focus has moved on. (Whether that be in 5 months or five years time.)

There are significant issues in Haiti concerning potable water that revolve around who makes money from it.

We can say this technology or the other will fit the bill, but off book accounting and business goes on there, and many other places like it.

Some in Haiti are giving away food. Meantime farmers are eating up their seeds.

You see how difficult this sort of reality becomes?

Farmers Markets are dependent on money in exchange for what they grow.

Disaster strikes.

Free food delivered.

Markets destroyed.

Families retreat to the farms.

Too many people on the farm.

All is eaten up.

Free food is in the City.

So then we can expect that those who fled the city, will return, when all the rural farmers are destroyed by their generosity, plus the farmers who will have been wiped out, as the storms approach.

Shelter will be inadequate.

Prayers might help, but I'd not depend on that as a plan.

Only food company I can imagine having the answers of intent, profit motive, and expertise, is Wegmans.

Weird the way my mind works isn't it.

I've been tested as I was accused often of being crazy.

I'm certified sane.

There are court transcripts of testimony saying so from experts.

Get the Red Cross and Wegmans to work together in Haiti, and get Preval to ask Clinton and Bush to work with Aristide so Cite Soleil is an ally instead of a threat, and we could role.

Just an Engineer,

You make several solid valid points regarding the state of Haitian infrastructure before the earthquake and what the long term ramifications and expectations of the Haitians will be once all the aid disappears in the future.

I've posted several times on this subject within this blog and the other very blog dealing with containers for shelters. Unfortunately, my professional opinion and advice is often overlooked by some in here that ought to know better and just like to hear themselves flap at the gums.

Somewhere within the blog that centers on the providing Haitians with shipping containers for shelters you will a posting of an US Army Corps of Engineers (USACE) assessment report regarding the state of the Haitian infrastructure that existed before the quake. Sorry, if I had the time today I'd list the url link here for the blog and that very important USACE report. Unfortunately, there are elements within the forum who apparently have not chosen to carefully read the report or totally disregard it because the USACE prepared it. The reasons behind that type of thinking were apparently etched into their numbskull's back in the 1960's when they were Hippie-Freaks protesting anything military, including the war in Viet Nam in particular...then there are those who protest anything just for the sake of it, or making themselves feel good for doing so. Just ignore this rabble and read the report, as it really is a blessing for the Haitian people that it was prepared in the first and will eventually act as a road map to installing infrastructure throughout the nation in the future. Basically, installed maintained infrastructure = economical prosperity = jobs!

As an engineer you'll appreciate the depth and breadth and comprehensiveness of the USACE report once you've had a chance to read through it. Good luck!!!

That's all I have to say about this at this time. I'm quite sure I'll be beat up on this matter by a select few herein just because they view my former military service and education as a threat to their little fiefdom. I don't even bother to acknowledge their ongoing blathering and insults they feel is warranted just because I have the Big Brass ones necessary to shoot holes in their pie-in-the-sky constructs, which BTW, I and many others view as unfeasible and/or unwarranted------- I say, let 'em "Piss up a rope!"

CaptMoosie's USACE report on the state of the Haitian water infrastructure is an extremely valuable study that should be considered when thinking of what the future should be for water supply in Haiti. It is backed up by at least one civilian study based on in-country experiences with which I am familiar. The USACE report should be be the beginning point of any planning for future infrastructure.

Is it the United States Agency of Civil Engineers as long title?

Are we in the position of recommending USACE recommendations be implemented across the board, or primarily in relation to Water infrastructure?

What is the relationship between USAID, and USACE?

I need the title and number of the pertinent USACE reports to pass on to the office contact at Congressman Prices office.

I have not read this report I don't think.

Mostly now I am attempting to imagine the very best order to recommend.

Food and water supply, and then tents and tarps were obvious as first in order to provide.

I looked at a Red Cross Youtube report showing the Red Cross Compound, and saw that it seemed to be anchored by a part build Hilton Hotel, what looked like a storage pod similar to a shipping container, if not a twenty footer, a pole barn, and tents.

Sure enough I'd like the number for the Camp Commander to ask some questions of, to see if either our study is of aid to them, or their plan incorporates any aspects of the reports we consider strongly advisable to follow through with.

I am thinking that the situation as far as Agencies of either the US, or UN, or other NGOs, is similar to the multiplicity of Intelligence Agencies where on any given day, one Agency will be doing a good job, and the other with overlapping responsibility and power will be undoing the good work of the other.

A medic friend of mine just got back from Haiti, and I will see if I can get any numbers to call. At any rate I sat down to discuss what would be a good name for whatever Ad Hoc Engineers Organization would be best.

I sort of needed one in an email I wrote and used the name Unaffiliated Engineering Think Tank.

Crossed my mind that we might succeed if we turned around and offered to sell to whomever is buying competitive plans at lower prices than competing entities, and take a fight fire with fire approach.

Often enough it appears people value more what they pay for regardless of its real worth.

My concern now is the willy nilly approach to the rebuild underway in Haiti. And I seek to now see Shipping Container Anchor Building Complexes set in place as other construction is undertaken in a order that is practical, efficient, and will step by step accomplish ideals of democracy and civilization sadly tattered by an odd and terrible history illustrating how even the greatest of nations have shameful secrets and failures to atone for.

Good ideas, sceptic- but the real solution is ultimately to reforest the hills, and use nature's own aquifer-refilling scheme. Your solution is more likely more acceptable to those on the ground, however...

One solution is short term, and the other longterm.

I do wonder at how to mix and order things, and do wonder if bamboo is a mean term middle solution for the mix of threats and needs I feel I know a bit about from my readings.

Truly at some point there is no substitute for being there.

Hi cwarner7_11

...but the real solution is ultimately to reforest the hills, and use nature's own aquifer-refilling scheme.

Fully agree, but unfortunately it is unlikely in the reasonable future.

Sceptic,

Good response, also see my reply # 51 to an answer base on Capt Moosies "Slow Sand filter"...use the containers lined or Concrete Canvas to make catchment basins.

Last time I was in Haiti (5 years ago) there were many sink holes...go to GOOGLE Earth ad go just beyond the end of the airport runway and you will see several BIG ones...Haiti is Limestone like Florida and they just have drawn too much water out and then the sea water has infiltrated the water table and dissolves the limestone over a period of time......USAC report done between 1995 to 1999 identified this.

NO one in the UN,IOM, USAID/FEMA or any other agency involved with water has even read the report or asked USACE for an update.....so back to square one lets just throw money at supplying bottled water everyday since Jan 16th at the increasing rate of 250,000+ x 2liter bottles everday...do the math on the # of plastic bottles discarded around the country side (so the water bottle once used needs to be cleaned if used again....designed for one time use once opened) think how many used fitration systems are sitting idle in Houston from the damaged oil rigs from Katrina that could have been mobilized (there is one I know has a capacity of 5,000 gph produced by MECO, rebuilt 3 years ago in storage) for all that money expended.

For everyone note: USAID/FEMA will not even return calls or emails when presented with this inforation...have an agenda (are paying truckers $25,000 for hauling a 40 cu yd load of debris out of New Orleans to a dump site in Louisianna...3 hrs drive to...dump and return...some of the material is sorted and burnt for POWER. Some truckers are makinf two to thre trips per day...I am in the wrong business at $25,000 per load contracted by FEMA)...have abudget and must SPEND or DO NOT GET NEXT YEARS APPROVESD!

Geoff Daly NH

http://www.nj.com/news/local/index.ssf/2010/03/rahway_donates_high-tech_purif.html

An interesting machine- filters and treats with UV- they claim it works with brackish or seawater as well. 3000 gallons per day is enough for the minimum requirements of 6000 people. One would need about 500 of these machines for Port au Prince alone, which works out to $25 million at the special disaster relief prices. Geoff- what are they paying for the daily planeload of bottled water from Atlanta? The company in Princeton making the machine is Worldwater & Solar Technologies,

http://www.worldwatersolar.com/

Capt Moosie- any familiarity with this outfit, and how they are converting seawater? It doesn't sound like traditional RO to me (see their comments about "consumables"), but I may be misreading their literature...

Thanks for putting the numbers in context CW.

I am caused to remember the 147 million figure originally proffered as a Tent Budget.

There have been some odd discussions in the threads of security issues, and motives are on my mind. I read a report of sabotage of a free clean water source that implicated clean water delivery concerns profiting from selling water in Haiti.

It appeared that essentially the delivery companies got the water they delivered for free from what would be essentially a public resource.

I get a water bill here where I live. Maybe I could make a profit selling it in my bottles to Haiti relief companies?

It will be interesting to see what intrigues surround this water machine given to Bon Repos. The town is in the neighborhood of 120 thousand I think. Will they be sending water bills for the water from the donated machine?

Who will protect the machine?

Crimes and corruption are the results of motives and opportunities.

I have a study of a couple of villages in northern Haiti where their primary water supply was local wells with hand pumps, but the quality was not good. Another village up the road started selling better quality water in the villages, piped to a central distribution point. At some point, the hand pumps on the local wells were sabotaged, so that the only available water was the water being sold by the other village...

If the sabotage was not pursued by police as a crime, and further the town with the damaged wells, did not repair them, would this not implicate authorities of the town deprived of a source of water within their means?

I am aware there really are not many Haitian Police in Haiti, but wonder at how many armed of other nations and the UN are there, and what they really do?

The corruption index for Panama is really about the same as it is for Haiti. The general who was the de facto dictator of Haiti is apparently living now in Panama.

How do things work better in Panama, than they do in Haiti?

Apparently, the incident of sabotage I referred to occurred long before the current troubles, in a part of Haiti where there is likely little or no police presence at all. These are small, remote villages...The incident was related as an example of some of the possible cultural attitudes that one might have to deal with...

The incident refered to was an act perpetrated by a well armed gang (war lord) and yes it was some time ago but shows one the type conditions prevailent prior to quake and continuing in the remote areas. Competition of whom has the sharpest knife!

Possibly ion exchange?

Probably not, seems to talk about RO, but energy requirements don't seem to square up with RO, but do with ion exchange.

Good idea using a package with it's own solar cells.

Hey Guys,

I took a very quick look at the Worldwatersolar site and there's not much info to go on....very little information regarding the types of unit processes employed. Actually, they appear to be very tight-lipped about anything to do with the filters.

Basically, there appears to be two distinct types of filtration equipment...1 for fresh water treatment, and another for brackish/sea water treatment.

the roughing filter mentioned (first filter) is most likely a sand and stone filter to take out large pieces of junk. The second filter group I'm not so sure about because they don't mention really what it is, only what it does. For the fresh water, it may be even a bank of Diatomacious Earth cartridges OR something like the new filament filter technology developed a few years ago by the General Electric Co. R&D Center in Niskayuna NY. The last filter bank in the brackish/sea water is RO, but the type is not mentioned. there's also a GAC filter for removal of chemical compounds, but nothing novel there since that technology has been around for quite some time.

Really, all- in-all, these units remind me too much of a scaled down version of water filtration units employed by the US Army...the guts may be almost identical...but, power source is solar instead of using a gen-set.

What bothers me that there's no documentation for Independent Laboratory and government agency testing results showing effective contaminant removal rates and to what Log removal level (ie, COD, THM, TSS, SS, Crypto, Giardia Lambia, pH adjustment, etc etc etc) and the length of expected filter runs, etc. Call me a sceptic, but until I see such information I would be hesitant to ship them off to just anywhere.......there's just way too many charlatans in the water treatment world out there, so I tend to play my card close to my chest until the manufacturer proves otherwise??????? IMHO, at this point it may or may not be a valid treatment system.......so take everything with a grain of salt and very cautiously. Also missing is what government agencies, like state health Dept's' and the EPA, have reviewed this equipment and now on their approved water treatment lists for use in their individual jurisdictions?

I would welcome the opportunity to get a hold of one of these pieces of equipment, put it thoroughly through the paces, and dissect it piece-by-piece to see how it ticks.

I've had a closer look at the Worldwatersolar site also- their seawater system does appear to be an RO system but I have questions about being able to get sufficient power out of the solar panels to generate sufficient high-pressure flow for RO. Last I checked, there were only two companies in the world making RO membranes, and every company putting out RO systems used one or the other (or both) as a supplier of membranes. I don't know if that is still the case, but it essentially indicates that all true RO systems are essentially the same inside (there are, of course, significant differences in the quality of other components, like pumps, electronics, etc.).

C-W,

Agreed about the RO system and HIGH energy needs. I too wonder about whether there is enough juice produced by those solar panels to run pumps and RO.

Do you remember how many solar PV modules were atop the gizmo? Was it 6 complete modules? Even if each module produced an assumed 230 Watts and 24 volts, that's only a total of 1,380 Watts (peak)....just doesn't seem to be enough power to run the RO canisters!

Good call C-W!

maybe they found another RO producer, say in India or China that we don't know about that has found a way to run RO on much less power????

Anyhow, the lack of provided data and information from this firm leaves a lot of unanswered questions in my mind and I'd be hard put to approve the use of their equipment for emergency relief if it ever came down to it....they've got a lot to prove first!

To CW, C.Moose, & Chrisg,

The video I saw showed it putting out water of good pressure.

The journalism of the paper in Rahway New Jersey seemed solid.

I'd call the Mayor of Rahway New Jersey to get his reasons for working so hard to donate the machine to Bon Repos, plus find out who he found pivotal in making it happen, for it apparently took a lot of work time to give the machine to the city in Haiti.

For our work knowing whom to call would be good to know, and save us some time.

I myself am impressed that Rahway New Jersey's Mayor had an understanding of the issues, and made something happen.

We might learn something from him, others like my Congressman and Clinton and Bush, have so far not demonstrated much greatness at considering their relative power compared to the Mayor of Rahway.

I've long thought that a City Mayor would make a better President than a Senator, or even a Governor, for the work is gritty at that political level.

Definitely a Mayor has real issues of infrastructure and budgets that do not allow for as much waste and slack, as State, or Federal pots.

Pumping a good amount water with solar panels is child's play. I can do the same thing all day long with my plastic pump that I can hook up to my portable/cordless Ryobi drill powered up with my 18 VDC Lithium Ion batteries.

I really don't see how this company can run a very energy intensive RO system, together with powering up the pumps and controllers with just a few solar PV modules....something is just not adding up here, unless this company wants to enlighten us all.

I strongly suggest we invite some of our knowledgeable CR4 Forum EE brethren into this forum blog and ask for their individual assessments. I think it would be prudent to do so before anyone jumps the proverbial gun and starts suggesting to the government of Haiti that this piece of equipment is the next greatest thing since slice bread was invented and an answer to all their prayers and problems.

one important lesson I've learned from older engineers (my mentors) is not to trust the words of politicians, contractors, salesman and lawyers.....and to go with your deep down gut feelings & instincts, and base your final judgements on a logical and thorough engineering review of independent testing....so in the end you're relying on common sense and engineering knowledge, skills and education....where you'll rarely go wrong if you don't deviate from the straight and narrow.

Forget the mouthpiece Mayor of Rahway NJ......probably it's his brother or bro-in-law that's heavily invested in the company in question.

A mayor for Prez??!!!! Ya gotta be kidding me!!!!

I once worked as a City Engineer for the City of Amsterdam NY back in the 90's...and I reported directly to the Mayor, not the various Aldermen. The Mayor was the biggest NUT CASE I've ever met that was running an elected office, and I've met many many over the past 30+ years!!! This Mayor couldn't get along with many in city employ (the Unions especially, and they called him the "DEVIL") and politics, but the city voting public kept him in office for years because he towed the line in regard to holding tax increases at bay year after year.....but watch your back because he was like Brutus! "?Et Tu Brute?"

Sorry, I don't agree with your assessment asking a Mayor what he thinks about a very technical piece of equipment. I want to see independent lab test results instead!

Give me the US Army's water purification equipment any day anywhere.

I'll see if I can get the Mayor of Rahway on the phone today.

If nothing else, again, I am impressed that they made something happen.

As far as testing of the machine, no doubt doing your own tests is a good idea.

As far as my theory that a Mayor would make a good president, its a theory, and Gulianni didn't make it look good, nor does Palin in my opinion.

Some think Bloomberg would make a good President, but I wonder if that would mean only the very rich got to live in the US, and everybody else had to move to Mexico, as the way things seem to have gone in NYC, is everybody who is not rich has been pushed off the island.

So I myself think my theory may not stand up to the evidence.

Trans,

Post the literatutre you got from the water people in Princeton MaxPure...remember my email reply to you...seems very unproven, no EPA data etc.

Geoff Daly NH

good stuff.. here is some more downloadable docs of the theory and process.

http://www.pdf-search-engine.com/Moringa-seeds--pdf.html

Chris

Plant one or two in the center of each communal cube and shade the containers (eventually and provide enough seeds for the unit.

Now, THIS is a solution to multiple problems for environments such as one expects to find in Haiti.

!. Immediate water purification

2. Reforestation (further improvement in future water quality)

3. Opportunity for local micro-industry in the production of cooking oil.

I highly recommend to those interested in this subject that they actually download the referenced paper from Wiley and review it. This information needs to be as widely disseminated as possible...

My first thought was that the solar panels couldn't run a reasonable RO plant.

That's why I suggested that it may be ion exchange or a similar process. In that case the resins would need replacement or replenishment every so often, not a job for unskilled labor.

Unless they have somehow repealed the laws of physics, I can't see this plant running a reasonable amount of water from RO.

CaptMossie ,

there are 18 solar panels producing around 3 kW...not enough juice for any pumps I know of for RO let alone move 125 gpm (3,000 gph on sea water)...unless they have RO elements we do not know about?

Geoff Daly NH

Tried to put up info I had forwarded. Went in via Firefox. Found tool bar. Found download. Hit hyperlink. Hit download. Selection didn't take.
Meantime while screwing around at it, lost part of toolbar.