Personal Transportation - Out of the Box Thinking

P911,

I understand your sentiment, but given your personal tag line, I would respectfully ask you to pass on comments to my students that are constructive and creative, rather than trying to be cute and critical. Our class works hard to discourage such comments within our discussions and I would ask that you and others please respect this rule for this thread given that students will be reading these replies. Thank you all for your thoughts and consideration.

The question presented the students and to this forum was, given all things considered including American attitudes with regard to vehicles, how can we move forward with our goals for a cleaner and more sustainable form of personal transportation within the United States.

I disagree. These are constructive, to advance one has to look at ones environment. Teach your students to look at that environment, and question it. That environment would include yourself, that is if you really are serious to have your students to think out of the box. Or unless you still want to direct them to your style of thinking. Which is not out of the box.

Give your students a chance to think ariginal don't shoot down an idea because it does not fit your preceived requirements .......this would also teach them brainstorming problems, and no idea is silly, stupid or just plain dumb. By keeping an open mind, You may not only be surprised, you may even learn something. We all keep learning and knowledge and ideas can come from anywhere.

The question presented the students and to this forum was, given all things considered including American attitudes with regard to vehicles, how can we move forward with our goals for a cleaner and more sustainable form of personal transportation within the United States.

As I understand your post. Public transportation, is still an option to consider. Unless you still need or want individual personal transportation.

p911

Thank you for your replay. It was much more thoughtful than your first and my students will appreciate your comments, although I suspect that they will laugh when they consider your comment about them not thinking out of the box. Our sessions get pretty crazy and no ideas are discarded.

Also, if you were in our discussion making the blanket statement as you did to the effect that it is America's lack of self confidence in themselves that drives them to buy bigger vehicles you would find you ideas quickly challenged. Please feel free to elaborate further before I share your comments in class on Monday.

You are correct in assuming mass transit is open game. It became a large portion of our discussion so feel free to share ideas you have that would help to move Americans further into is use.

Thank you again for your ideas.

I agree with P911 on the confidence issue. Hummers were popular because they were huge. If you drive a huge car, you don't worry about accidents, don't have to learn how to drive well, because all that metal will protect you. Sick.

If you drive a huge car, it's a status symbol. Conspicuous consumption is the American Way. You may be a wimp, but your car is huge. You have finally arrived, are making decent money, buy a huge car. Have a stretch limo, a stretch Hummer, a stretch B&O locomotive, size matters.

Also, if you were in our discussion making the blanket statement as you did to the effect that it is America's lack of self confidence in themselves that drives them to buy bigger vehicles you would find you ideas quickly challenged.

A challenge is fine.....but take it in context.

If your students are going to be reading, will they be participating?

May be a good idea, for involvement.

I agree with you in that a lot of males in this country buy vehicles with their mind set on a status symbol. But I differ with you in saying it's a American thing. It's a male image problem the world over. We just consume more then the rest of the world so it's more evident. Consumption is an issue for another discussion.

Look at the high prestige vehicles produced in Europe. You will see we Americans are not alone in our desires to look good in what we drive.

You are right in addressing this image problem in relation to the acceptance more environmentally friendly vehicles. What better place to start then the next generation of drivers. They need to realize that transportation is just means to get from one place to another. Looking good doing it is irrelevant.

I'll vote with P911.

Depending upon the family upbringing of the child, and how central vehicles are to the consciousness of that family, and their values, the confidence of the young driver in themselves and their self identity is completely relevant.

When I was growing up as the youngest of 5 males, in an era where we could change engines under the tree, I bought a 1970 plymouth 440 GTX... I was completely into that image of power and sexy. I was afraid enough to back off the hammer and not drive impaired, but many of my friends were decidedly more radical. I'm lucky to have survived. several friends did not.

Many of my notions of cars and transportation were born in that time. The fact that 'sexy' cars are so prevalent in society, (and not just american) is the evidence of the case. Fast cars from europe are just as inspiring to youth in europe. If you have seen the movie "Tokyo Drift", you can see the main characters working out their confidence issues (fear) of speed, competition, danger, women, etc, and finding a greater sense of self identity by the end of the movie.

Mass transit doesn't get sexy until you start to introduce more speed, like europe's TGV, or china's high speed train. (is that a maglev?)

Chris

I believe Phoenix911's first response was right on target with respect to Americans- for many Americans, selecting a car is about projecting an image. The image being projected may or may not be related to reality. Should your students really want to understand American automobile choices, they will have to understand this basic issue. Another aspect of American car ownership is that it is not unusual for one person (or household) to possess multiple vehicles intended to meet differing needs...

If p911 was wrong, US city commuters would all be riding the 340 miles per US gallon Honda C50 / Cub.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Super_Cub.

By a conservative back of the envelope calculation that's 35 times cheaper than public transport on direct fuel costs, not counting capital costs for acquiring the product in either case, which I suspect would also lean heavily in favor of the Honda.

If your students were so extraordinary they would have used the Honda as the starting point from which to beat.

For example, since the proposal was for PERSONAL transportation I fail to see how the hugely expensive Volt, with or without a trailer, would come anywhere near the Honda on any measurement you can think of.

velisj,

In case you missed it on the wiki reference;

Fuel Consumption 146 km/L (410 mpg-imp; 340 mpg-US) (30 km/h fixed area travelling test value).

With more than 60 million sold worldwide, it is the best selling powered vehicle of all time.

That's the box you have to think outside of and I haven't heard anything from you or your students that even comes close to the edge, never mind gets outside of.

I drive a pickup truck, because I'm always carrying something; trash, buckets of paint, lumber, etc. I spend a lot of money on fuel. I would love it if my truck was hybrid. There is plenty of room under my truck bed for battery storage, my roof and hood could have solar panels, custom fitted ones would look cool. When stuck in traffic, just inch along in electric. Carrying the extra weight of the batteries is no problem for a truck, would even help with traction in the snow, folks have been known to put dead weight in pickups just for that reason.

But this is all in the box. For out of the box, get America off their high horse and use public transportation.

I saw a show about GM and the EL1, their electric car. It showed a part where all the electric trolleys were bought up and scrapped, so folks would have to buy cars. Thanks, GM, I'll never buy your product again. Ford Rules.

Also on GM and the EL1, maybe if they had the car designed to look good, and not like a Citroen, it may have been better received. The Telsa is great looking.

get America off their high horse and use public transportation.

Ga, now thats not thinking out of the box, but utilizing what is existing.

Look at alot of small cities public transportation and how they view it. In college they (the students) referred to it as public dinosaurs, and was not very cool to use it.

This was close to 30 years ago. These same students had both mom and dad working at the paper mill with a combined income of excess $160,000.00 and going to school on grants from the parents company. They never graduated.

When I went to college I used the bus and it was empty....all the time, I stopped using it because my night classes ended after the last stop. I walked the first time, it was over 3 miles away. didn't bother me, I came from a rural area and I was used to it, walking home from the late bus from sports. but I stopped because of the traffic (quality of) in the city at night.

p911

"Ga, now thats not thinking out of the box, but utilizing what is existing."

But if the car is the box then it is. Give us an example of what is out of the box to your way of thinking.

To find or develop something different, first find what you have.....i.e. define the box.

And as you define the box, you define a reference, and as the box is being define you begin to input out of the box thinking.

Understand?

By all means brainstorm ideas (call this "generative brainstorming"). But then equally, brainstorm possible flaws to those ideas (call this "critical brainstorming"). Along with the critical brainstorming, apply known engineering principles to examine the viability of the ideas on the table.

For instance, the trailer idea would allow you to ditch the engine weight on short trips where battery power would suffice. Good idea thus far. But then examine it further. There will be occasional hassles in connecting/disconnecting it, parking difficulties, etc. Then too, the engine in a hybrid is not the heaviest item, so how much (or little) is gained?

Rather than call this process "naysaying," reconsider it as avoidance of problems and inefficiencies.

Teach students not to be downcast or defensive when their ideas are shot down, but rather to move on to other, hopefully better, ideas.

ideas evolve....

Maybe a good idea to start a list of types transportation, and catagorize them in forms. then work off of these with possible new ideas. Feel free to add to the already mentioned, such as drawbacks, or pro.....

To start with;

Segway, Small, Electric power, multiple driver input contril.

Horse, large, high maintenance, multiple driver input contril.

Bicycle, mid to small, low maintenance, multiple driver input contril. reliable

ect.....

Another area our class looked at closely was the concept of the embedded energy both within the vehicle and the energy system including delivery. We limited the social and political costs within the discussion for no other reason than we were limited for time, but I would love to tackle that one with them at a later date.

what age level is this class of yours?

9th-10th

Ed,

I like your first suggestion. It makes sense. I wonder if one reason which makes it difficult to implement has to do with enforcement.

Under the current system (I'm speaking from experience in FL), if I lend someone without insurance my car and they have an accident, there is liability coverage. It's easy for an officer driving by the car to determine the likelihood of a vehicle being insured or not as license plates are renewed yearly and require proof of insurance to renew.

Under your proposed arrangement, I could be insured personally for liability lend my insured car to someone who does not have insurance (or not even have insurance myself) and go out for a drive. How does law enforcement easily identify uninsured drivers? Driver's licenses are renewed much less frequently (every 10 years or so in FL).

We discussed the idea of taxes and how they relate or don't to usage. Your response 3 will be good for further discussion on that mark. Thanks!

Ed, your answers are usually good, but I don't like these. Like the next poster says, insurance has to be on the car for a lot of reasons. There is comprehensive to cover your car's damage from whatever, and liability is another thing altogether.

Paying for commuting is way out there. There are folks who do ridiculous commutes because they are too stubborn to find work close to home, or are so elitist that they just have to live in a certain neighborhood. And a factory worker can't do factory work on a laptop, can't afford a laptop, and doesn't have a safe place to put the laptop at work. Imposing responsibility on an employer for commuting workers is onerous.

Emissions and taxes are messed up enough, thank you.

Japan, and other countries I'm sure, have dedicated bicycle lanes wherever available. It's a great idea. The little electric cars are cute, but are going to have to keep up with traffic or keep to the slower parts of the highway. We have some here, but the maximum speed here is 35mph. They are ideal town cars.

I disagree with these.

Having been in California for work, some people commute over 3 hours a day. The employees pick the job. It should not be the employers responsibility to subsidies the employees travel, unless its a short term transplant.

Now developing a public tranportaion system for this kind of environment in CA would be difficult.

3. Change all vehicle emmision requirements from parts per million exhaust composition to weight of emmisions per mile.

???? The standards have been in (fractions of) grams-per-mile for decades.

Blink -- You and I must be talking about two different standards. I'm just going by the "ASM Emission Test Results" on California "Smog check Vehicle Inspection Report (VIR)". That report gives either % readings or PPM readings which is all you could expect to read from the transducer they stick in the car's tailpipe during the smog test.

I suppose you are talking about Federal Government standards. I'm not real familiar with them although I suppose I should be given my inclination to express opinions in this community of ours. Perhaps the CA computers put publishied mileage for a given make and model into the calculation to come up with an acceptance limit for PPM and % numbers for a given vehicle in the actual smog test?

Any of you guys out there able to clarify this for me? ...........Ed Weldon

Why should the car carry liability insurance? Cars can't drive themselves except in very unusual circumstances (like a uninsured driver uses the car without permission).

What about children and other passengers? This segues into the health insurance debacle. I carry medical coverage for passengers.

Require all companies with more than a certain number of employees to provide transportation at cost to a percentage of employees who commute more than say 3 miles to work and require that the employer pay for work time begining with boarding the transit vehicle and ending with exiting on the way home.

I commute 45 miles each way. This just means no one would employ me.

Jaen -- About children and other passengers: If you were the insured then an obvious coverage for you as the driver is to cover any passengers in a car being driven by you for all risks until some health care coverage takes a position of greater liability. In such a case the car and its owner(s) have no liability. In this situation it becomes incumbent on you the driver to make sure the vehicle is safe to drive. Inherent in such a legal framework would be very specific limitations of liability for the vehicle owners and perhaps exceptions such as a deliberate act by the owner to disable a safety system in the vehicle.

This would make vehicles no different than other personal property. Like if you loan your chain saw to a friend and he injures himself or someone else or accidentally cuts down another neighbor's tree should you be liable as the owner of the chain saw? Perhaps you will be if the case goes to court. If your homeowner's insurance provides blanket protection that's great. If not then the case outcome depends on the law, common or statutory. But if the statutes specifically exempt you the owner of the saw from any civil liability then you re covered by the law.

In my scenario here what I'm saying is "Why should my motor vehicle be any different than any other tool when it comes to owner liability?"

Relative to mandated company provided home to work transportation: This is one of those things that would have to be pretty well crafted as a legal thing because there are a lot of folks like yourself who would come out on the short end of the deal, especially in times of labor surplus like we're in these days. I'm not sure it would ever be feasible for hourly paid workers unless we were like China where large numbers of workers live in dormitories or "company towns" like in past centuries in the USA. (Uhhh....YUK)

But there may be some merit to the idea for salaried and especially exempt professional and managerial workers. Most of these folks spend a good part of their working time on the computer. There is strong research evidence to show that beyond a certain number of hours per day productivity diminishes substantially for these folks. We also know that in many geographical areas these higher paid folks tend to live in clusters in upscale communities some substantial commuting time from where they work.

Supposing that you could board a special company bus a short distance from home. (perhaps at the local mall where there would be parking available and the local merchants would benefit from being right there for shopping each day when you board or get off the bus). Now this bus would be equipped with seating like in the business class of airliners with wireless connections to the net. You get on the bus, sit down, put your coffee cup in the holder and turn on your computer or handheld and go to work. All the unproductive effort of driving has just gone away. And so do the costs.

Now you may happen to need to run an errand of the type you did at lunchtime when you drove to work. If the company is operating a bus fleet it might as well also operate a small fleet of reservable passenger cars available for such errands. This could well include some inexpensive short range urban vehicles. One little problem is legally mandated lunch hours for employees. There is little practical enforcement of these laws for many work situations where employers can be flexible about when people go to lunch. But a specific legal exclusion for certain types of workers could be easily crafted to give the employer greater formal latitude in scheduling lunch breaks. With this latitude it would be practical to spread out the utilization of the "lunch car" fleet through the whole day and thus require fewer vehicles.

In the last couple of decades of relative prosperity for engineering professionals we have tended to get away from the carpooling thing and build our lives around the availability of our own car. A lot of us may be too young to have experienced the carpooling during the 1970's gasoline shortages. I carpooled three days a week for 3 years. (the other two days I had to take diapers to the Laundromat and haul a 25 gallon water tank). I learned something interesting about carpooling. It forced you to get your work done in a fixed time period and it greatly discouraged managers and others from letting meetings involving us carpoolers drag on late in the afternoon. Many times at 5 or 10 minutes before my carpool left I'd simply get up and leave a meeting and if met with questioning looks I'd say "gotta meet my carpool". The carpooling stopped when I changed jobs.

And the workday, not counting the commute, seems to have grown for exempt engineers from 8 to around 10 when I retired in 2002 and now, according to my son, also an engineer, to 12 plus an average of one weekend day each week. I guess the employers are getting more productivity out of their engineers these days. But at what cost?

Ed Weldon

I think one reason people purchase vehicles beyond that appear to be more than they need is flexibility. Or worded differently, we aren't always aware of when we will need what.

I would very much like to have a more fuel efficient vehicle (I drive a 2003 Honda Accord). Sure I could get a smaller car...or motorcycle, but when I get to work, I may find that I need to go by the store and pick up some stuff, or take some customers to lunch, or a number of other things. Even though one's short terms needs may dictate a specific choice, if one is looking to keep the vehicle for 10 years they may make an entirely different choice. So the choice is a balance of short term and long term needs and convenience. .

It's simply, one size does not fit all. Then add to the mix various
reasons, preferences, and motivations, and the soup is endless.

Students by nature (rightly) are revolutionary; not evolutionary.
Happy years, unappreciated 'till past. Success prevails on utility.

The irony is, it is the casual remark, the flash of inspiration, the
dedication of thought towards a target, which influences the score.

Guide the students to dissect a problem, and find a solution in utility.
All the rest is window dressings for the pleasures of life.

jt.

In God we can trust, unfortunately everyone else has to pay.

I like the suggestion of a trailer with a "power supply" that can be used by multiple vehicles. I'd like to see some designs that could allow people to "build" your own "green" vehicle. For example, a pickup truck that has an electric engine option, that could be powered by batteries placed under the truck bed as someone suggested. Or maybe recharged by a simple Honda generator running in the bed of a pickup. Put some work into designing a new vehicle that can be customized for individual use by the individual, rather than for every use by everyone. If I could select an all electric option with a basic recharged system, then customize it with aftermarket parts to make best use for my needs, I'd make better use of it.

Instead of mass-production of "everyman" vehicles, mass produce the building blocks and develop a system of local assembly shops with trained personnel, to build just what you want from those parts.

Just a few ideas from an idle mind!

Chrisg288 has started a rather extensive blog here on CR4 relating to modular vehicle design that may be of interest...

kinda like the Jetsons with George dropping off his boy Elroy, His daughter Judy, and Jane....His wife.

To those who are honestly responding to a class of 9th and 10th grade technology students with constructive suggestions, let me say thanks from both myself and my students.

To those who continue with the usual diatribe about consumptive Americans and their need for large, polluting vehicles to enhance their lack of self confidence, I can only say that you have missed an opportunity to have a positive dialog with a small group of today's youth. Even my students seem to understand at a fundamental level that stepping out of the box is great for coming up with ideas, but to really implement change, one needs to do more than criticize the ideology of a group. You need to bring forward solutions that will solve the issues while not alienating people you are looking to influence.

velisj:

You have to remember, this is not about you, its about your students.

Opportunities have been presented to you repeatedly. its up to you to reconized and take advantage of them.

It is too bad that the opportunities do not align themselves with your way of thinking or teaching.

p911

You are correct when you say that it is not about myself or you for that matter.

You are also correct when you say that your comments do not mesh with my methods in the classroom. I do not present my ideologies in any fashion and I work to teach my students to recognize when someone is forcing their values on them. It is only when they recognize the source for what it is that they can make a value judgment of their own and it is those judgments that will stick with them and help to form their value system as they grow older.

I would encourage you to spend more time in actual dialogue with young people in the future. You seem to want to talk at rather than talk to. You might be pleasantly surprised regarding just what they have to offer.

Me, I am off to gather up a van load of young people and take them skiing!

Have a grand afternoon.

The Emperor has no clothes. Quite apropos, and out of the box as children's stories go.

If you do not understand the motivations that drive certain behavior, you have no chance of modifying that behavior, or understanding whether the alternatives you are proposing are really addressing the issue you are trying to impact. The junkyards of the world are full of failed attempts to offer a "better solution". One hundred years ago, electric automobiles far outnumbered automobiles with internal combustion engines. Why did the technology fail to maintain market share? What are you proposing for the future that will address this failure? Fifty years ago, public transportation was readily available in most major urban centers in the US. Why has this concept fallen by the wayside in the US? If you don't understand the reasons, you have no chance to alter the attitudes that drive today's perceived needs.

Focusing on the situation in the US is helpful because the US represents the largest world market for the automobile, and because, in many parts of the world, there is a tendency to want to emulate the life style many people perceive is the norm in the US (noting, of course, such perceptions may or may not be based in reality).

Personal transportation is far more, to many people, than just a technology to get from point a to point b, and not just in the US. If this is not recognized in your thinking, you are spinning your wheels.

this may have started out innocently enough, but one can quickly realize the impact.

The OP may be looking for an answer, but did not realize the answer will more then likely (will) be a compromise.

This is what separates between the learning and the learned and experienced. There will be no definite answer because this is not a text book. Very good experience for the students.

p911

Personal transportation is far more, to many people, than just a technology to get from point a to point b, and not just in the US. If this is not recognized in your thinking, you are spinning your wheels.

Excellent point. Telling others to take public transportation some times is like telling us rural dwellers to move into town and live in apartments because it is safer and cheaper than living out in the country. BS!. I have lived that city life style before and I will just as soon die or kill someone before I will go back.

It may work well and be right for some but it is not right and does not work for all. Its also the biggest issue behind why some of us have bigger vehicles. Its not an ego thing but its more of a multi level personal fit thing. I am 6' 3" and 250# so I just don't fit into smaller vehicles comfortably. My line of work and life choices dictate that I have to use larger vehicles as well. I know I am safer in crash because I have the structural and mass advantage. Tough luck if your driving the little economizer car that I ran over. That was your decision to drive it not mine.

Largely for many others like me its because we have tried the other alternatives and found them to be lacking in enough of the necessities for our applications that great fuel mileage just does not justify us owning a small vehical.

I have work and lifestyle reasons that justify my having to drive a 4.5 ton 400 HP 12 MPG truck because that is what I need. I dont like knowing that it could do better on fuel because some tree hugging Eco twit got some politician to mandate that it has to get worse mileage to save the world because it looks good on paper and makes THEM "feel good".

Telling others to take public transportation some times is like telling us rural dwellers to move into town and live in apartments because it is safer and cheaper than living out in the country.

That is a stretch, One has to realize that public transportation is usually setup for the city. I was in Benzonia, Michigan (small town, maybe 1,000 - 2,000 people?) last summer on a number of occasions for a total of about 4 weeks and for a small rural community that had public transportation. You just had to call in and on their next route come and pick you up, at your drive way. The rural population used this quite often, students and taxpayers.

They started this about 2 years prior. Hopeful they can afford to keep it running. Just being greener and more efficient does not cut it (pay for itself).

I have lived that city life style before and And had positive results.

I will just as soon die or kill someone before I will go back.

You just reinforced my point from my earlier post #1 and what other posters presented. This is not just a technology issue. Its a social one.

p911

My family and I use the local transportation in Benzonia, along with the transit system in the county to the north. Both are great systems, but a prime example of subsidized mass transit. Not really sustainable on a per call basis, but very cool for those of us who use it as long as it lasts and we as taxpayers are willing to support it. And it does come up on a regular basis on the ballot.

So what do you do in the summer when you are up my way P911?

I was surprised at the transportation for such a small community.

Had work in the area, so I visited some friends there.

Hope the ski trip went well. I myself just got back from vacation in Colorado Springs.

Hello Chris,

I always enjoy your posts and my class will truly enjoy your concept vehicles. It really is all about opening up the discussion as this thread has shown

I come from a automotive family with many members working in the industry at many levels, but I am very intrigued by the idea of a modular design. I haven't looked at your thread in a while, but I will certainly point my gang in that direction.

Thank you again for taking the time to respond and congratulations on an excellent job with the Olympics! One heck of a hockey game that was, eh!

John

Thank you John

tears of joy and goosebumps for a whole nation today... I haven't seen the like since 1972. (although I do love that 1980 us olympic story) I'm proud of every participant, and sad for those who came so close... some really amazing human stories.

on the modular site, I would completely love some creative input from you and your class. I have a few more ideas yet to be posted, but have been diverted by the Haiti thread, working a new job, and the olympics. (amongst other things)

Chris

Stellar! GA

Attitude is unpopular because it does not fit into the curriculum. And with this unpopularity it makes it difficult to next to impossible to "Think out of the Box".

Engineering or product development is not a place called Shan Gri La, but it can be enjoyable and stressful at the same time.

The point that is not registering is everything that is laid out will be subject to criticism. hence compromised drive to the best solution. But it seems that if it does not fit the profiled curriculum it is deemed valueless.

And the "Out of the Box" agenda is nothing but idle words.

When brainstorming, there is no dumb response or opinion.

True brainstorming can be a humbling yet a learning experienced, but brainstorming should be facilitated.

To the inexperienced, alot of energy will be spent on technique, presentation as to not ruffle feathers.

p911

Well said and with a lot of thoughts for my students to digest!

Thank you for your time.

awesome knowledge as usual.

what program is your model (image) made in?

Chris

Hi Chris,

It's Design CAD 2000. Its main virtue when I first bought it more than a decade ago (15 years ago?) was its reasonable price for a 3D package. It has some annoying quirks, and I'd prefer SolidWorks, but for my purposes, it is OK. For some things, of course, it works just fine.

For something like drawing a shape with curved panels and then flattening the panels for cutting, its useless... but I have a simple boat drawing program that does that. (In fact that's what I used to make panels for the Zing! prototype.)

My son is training for the NYC Triathlon. When he's running or biking I tell him to stop off at the store to pick up some items and do curls on the way home. Sometimes I'll tell him to pick up 60 lbs of dog food and we don't even own one. He can be very rude at times.

is your son a teenager?

As a youth, they do not recognize when your instilling character, that does will not serve them immediately but later in life when they will cherish it. Teacher/mentors

I would think that your students have a very good idea on having a trailer to add on to an electric car to extend it's range, why not a PV mat that could be added to the roof to add charging compacity when you are not running.

The trailer could be a pusher type vehicle with its own engine and fuel source for an extended trip say up to a 300-500 mile range.

What is the energy used to traversed with trailer as compared to with out?

The trailer could be a pusher type vehicle with its own engine and fuel source for an extended trip say up to a 300-500 mile range.

This would need to be drilled down more, especially when you use numbers like 300-500 miles. like where were these numbers derived from. Or to get the extended range are you just having a larger fuel tank and such.

p911

Now Hotwater's answer got me thinking about that "pusher" concept.

It could be a puller...a "standard" vehicle that tows the riders in their very own special trailer. Controls could be via wire, not much different than today. (don't start ranting about Toyota...this is future think) It might be cheaper to build the custom trailer that folks ride or move their items in. The puller is then a simple traction device that has various power options for various loads as needed. Could be a rental device.

velisj:

I do like to add, though it was mentioned you may not see it. there is no right answer that we are driving to. and posters will be criticized.

You being a teacher may not be used to this but any professional here will relate his experience and or opinion good and bad, but one can not take it personally, what you set out is basically a brainstorming session that can have great potential.

Don't give up. Criticism is welcome here. But realize something, we are not students here, we will present or defend our position until convinced otherwise.

p911

...a new pair of SHOES, because walking bare-footed is so-o-o-o gosh.

I think what is a better idea. is what was mentioned earlier.

You have a mother vehicle to make the initial long distance travel. This can have solar Chargers. and then Segway types of vehicles to unload to make your small runs to your final destinations.

Example.

Your going to work, and have to drop you kids off to school, why? because its uncool to take public transportation.

You stop at a central location on your way to work or errand. dispense your offspring and sent them on their way. And go to work. While at work you vehicle is recharging and at the end of the day even though your reserve is not fulling charged (inefficient that was talked about on a previous thread, though maybe batteries surpassed this)

You pick up any of the kids, that had after school activities, while the rest made there way home (if within ability of the kids or vehicle).

At home you park and recharge again.

p911

Good points. I will pass them on to my students. Thank you.

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I will pass them on to my students.

Great going Blink! Eat mice!

Thanks. A mouse a day keeps the doctor away.

I think your student made a fine suggestion that is worthy of pursuing.

It might work for some people, somehow.

We do often here discuss cars.

I consider Anonymous Hero the resident expert.

For the young couple, or the singles two cars, space for much of anything, may well be short.

Public transport is hit or miss depending on what urban area you live in in the US.

The Mountain ranges for transcontinental trips require enough power to cross somehow a couple of mountain ranges on the East West Routes, and North and South trips can well require cars such as the Subaru for many months of a year.

I know when short of money, which has for some reason long been a problem for me, I have attempted to get ahold of vehicles that would do a variety of jobs.

I really ought to have made some better choices and think my life may have been a bit more successful if I had bought a Volkswagen Bus, and stuck with that sort of thing.

One of my most significant failures was the Ford F 150.

My Super Beetle was really a fine thing.

The Kia Sephia did better than expected.

But damn, my 1954 Pontiac Star Chief, well, you could move the family and listen to the radio, and probably put folding bicycles in the truck along with inflatable or folding furniture, plus food for a trip without known end.

Dream car for me is a Subaru.

I like the idea of wind tunnels to "blow" bicycles to their destinations. So I guess about 6 ft wide and 8ft high with occasional fans in the top to keep the wind blowing at about 15 miles per hour. Pairs of tunnels (One to go home after work too). 15 mph is a nice speed on a bike. And if the wind is always blowing with you, it is so easy too. I do not know how the loading would change if there were more or less people in it.

I am not sure how the entry ways would work, Perhaps enter at 25 degrees at a venturi tightening of the tunnel? and you would not need a door?

I am sure someone somewhere has worked the whole thing out.

Brian

Wouldn't that be cool!

Lets make them clear and raise them above the traffic!

I got a mag called cycletherapy a few days ago. They have something like the "blow bycycles to their destinations tunnels idea" and it "may have been" inspired by something called The high Line project in New York thehighline.org

The thing is velo-city.ca Some very nice small pics of the concept in the magazine but I did not see them at velocity.

Anyway, I used to be an avid cyclist but stonemasonry killed my knees and exausts me.

Cycling at speed effortlessly, with the wind behind your back, gives a godlike feeling!

Here's a cute one: http://gizmodo.com/384074/uno-a-unicycle+motorbike+segway-hybrid

That one was on "The Dragon's Den"... Brett invested in it.. that kid (Ben Gulak) that invented it was going to MIT in the fall.. bright future there.. but the design has changed again, and now the cycle is only a unicycle below 20km/h.. above that it automatically splits and becomes a motorcycle, to improve high speed stability. very cool.

http://www.cbc.ca/dragonsden/pitches/uno.html

Chris

I think it's time for a real Cyclops. No longer the fantasy car of tomorrow, Stan Motts car should be the car of tomorrow....no wait , Today February 29, 2010

http://sbiii.com/cyclops/cyclops.html

Ed Weldon

OOps ......I forgot. It's March 1. Where did FEb 29 go? Well, it's still a fantasy locked in another time warp.

Hmmmmm..... Not quite. Supposing someone can come up with a nice little high efficiency turbocharged 200 or 300 cc 30 hp engine. This little car with its natural roll cage supported simple aluminum body, 2 seats, near go-cart sized wheels and two seats ought to weigh in at around 700 pounds. Gear it so the maximum speed is about 65 mph (this was good enough for 36hp VW's) with the ordinary transmission drive setup but also provide an overdrive mode where the engine is governed (by a movable carb restrictor plate?) to a maximum of 25 mph at 1800 rpm for easy in-town cruising and incredible mileage. The overdrive would also engage a flywheel to smooth engine operation in this gear at low speeds. Imagine the handling performance with the low cg and the tires as wide as they are high and the full 30 hp in 2nd gear!!

Am I crazy? Perfect for a hatchback for light cargos. A small ripstop tent over the back would make a cozy sleeping compartment. (Too bad Stan Mott didn't build a real Cyclops body on his "Round the World" gocart. sure would have made for a more commfortable ride.)

Imagine this. The perfect little commuter car for mileage in high traffic conditions but really a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Ed Weldon .......... Hey I'm not crazy. This is doable. 250cc 2 cyl bike engine and tranny. Got to invent the OD drive setup. ........ Anybody make a little turbo for a motor this size? Could I get enough air to the engine to keep it cool? Do they make water cooled bike engines that small? Is a simple curved safety glass windshield possible or do I have to use flat glass?

The Cyclops reminds me of Jorie Squibb's car, the Moonbeam.

Wow -- Jorie Squibb's Moonbeam looks like it has solved all the important design issues. The only deal for me and a few of my contemporaries is the sacred nature of the Cyclops thing. Most of you guys are too young to have connected with Stan Mott and the Road and Track articles of the 1960's. They left a lasting impression on me. Problem is that members of his old fan club are starting to die off.

But it would be real easy to wrap a Cyclops look-alike body around a Moonbeam chassis. Trouble is there are too few people around that would recognize it's heritage.

BTW, I think I have an answer for the snow tire problem ...... ATV tires or maybe even an entire ATV rear axle if they are not too heavy.

Ed Weldon

Most of you guys are too young to have connected with Stan Mott and the Road and Track articles of the 1960's.

I had a collection of all the 60's Road and Track and Sports Car Graphics issues (I write, as I hobble away on my cane).

I'd like a fuel efficient VTOL to get me in & out of the holler - maybe a convertible.