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How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/21/2010 12:30 PM

Stopping the flow these great minds yes the brightest in there field. Why are we concentrating on capturing the oil how about stopping the flow no idea bp has tryed to date has worked they cant say with any certainty, how much oil is flowing out, and we know that there estimates are way off at this point. If you stop the flow you stop the flow of dollars lost. This is becoming a joke and bp will not be laughing in the end.

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#1

How about an idea?

05/21/2010 12:40 PM

Wow, johnnyb5, tell us how you really feel!

I am reading your post again looking for a constructive suggestion, or a question, or a cogent point. I find none of these.

How can we help you to "Plug the fn pipe."?

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: How about an idea?

05/21/2010 1:02 PM

It seems pretty clear all energy is being used to capture how about a little more energy used on plugging the pipe. There catching maybe 10 % of the leak we cant kink it so lets catch it lets use all enrgy on plugging it sorry for showing my ass but focus seems to be in the wrong direction my ideas were laughed at compared to acme and the road runner. But i have'nt seen any ideas on stopping the flow.

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#8
In reply to #1

Re: How about an idea?

05/21/2010 2:02 PM

go back to may 3rd discussion under plug that pipe

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#2

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/21/2010 1:02 PM

and how prey tell us do you stop oil at high presure coming out of a broken pipe 5000 feet under water ?

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#5
In reply to #2

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/21/2010 1:25 PM

Wright now we have something equal to a straw sucking the water out of a pool.how about a pipe saddle well before the leak punching a hole in the pipe and putting that silly pump before the leak possably releaving enough flow so we can cut a staight edge on the pipe and make it more managable to cap I mean 3 4 weeks of oil leaking already 100's of millions of gallons with no sign of capping but plenty of ideas to capture.

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#9
In reply to #5

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/21/2010 4:43 PM

Johnnyb5 you are wright fooley koncerned about the losted oil.

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#6
In reply to #2

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/21/2010 1:37 PM

a big cork.

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#4

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/21/2010 1:10 PM
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#7
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Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/21/2010 1:53 PM

very interesting lynk I like the blatter idea but I posted that in an earlier discussion about 2 weeks ago and got laughed at.

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#10

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/21/2010 10:44 PM
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#11

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/21/2010 11:45 PM

Hi J5,

I feel your frustration, but we can have equally heated and frustrated thoughts about many things. The problems are often much more complex than we, as non-experts, usually imagine. Not to make light of the seriousness of the current problem, let me explain in other terms.

The term "expert" can easily be thrown around, but in most scenarios, there are folks who have more 'expertise', usually the product of a lot more experience, than do I. I can have "good ideas", but the actually application of those ideas may not be feasible. We may think our ideas are being laughed at, or ignored, but the fact is, when considering the actual application of that idea, it may not really be so "good". Sometimes even considering all those "good ideas" may not be practical … a little like when the police issue a 'missing person' plea to the public … they are flooded with many random 'sightings' and no way to follow up on them … maybe better to leave the 'search' to those who know best how to do it. I'm really not trying to evoke comments about the police or the detective process, but just making a point that not every opinion and "good idea" can be considered.

Although I am bending the statement of 'Occams Razor', that the simplest answer is usually the correct answer, it is often the case that if there are indeed "experts", or at least very experienced people working on a particular problem, chances are slim that an inexperienced person can propose an idea that has not already been considered. In my own field of work, often there are folks who suggest why something isn't done "this way", and when answer to that isn't immediately obvious, often my first consideration is, "if the idea is really that good, why hasn't someone done it before?" Again, not to say there are never any good new ideas, but one should at least consider the obvious, and that is, "why isn't someone already doing it?"

In my own work, to be called an "expert" seems a little grand, but I am experienced, and I do know what I know. Still, I spend countless hours explaining and justifying my decisions, mostly to others who are less knowledgeable, mostly who are hearing bits and pieces from "non-experts", who are trying to decide for themselves a correct course of action. Regarding this particular oil spill tragedy, without considering possible sinister motives or other illogical issues (and there may be), for me, I must relegate the decisions to improve, correct, and hopefully prevent this situation to those who are indeed experts in their own fields.

Our opinions are valuable (and most of us are full of them), and necessary to keep everyone thinking, but if they are not embraced in general, there may be good reasons beyond our own thinking.

Kind regards …

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#14
In reply to #11

Cap it with out of the box ideas...

05/22/2010 9:15 AM

DCad, that is very true. When I was in 3rd grade I imagined a hover car that would levitate on a road of magnets. Someone stole it a patented the Mag Lev train, or so I thought until I realized that the maglev patent came out before I was born. I didn't mention that to the other 3rd graders in my invention club. I had worked out that it would have solar cells and I even detailed a crude DC wiring schematic.

My point is, I was very optimistic and also naive, but I was willing to consider anything that made any sense. Its funny to look back at my old drawings and ideas. I find a relation to how I design today and if one tries to consider every single issue or stumbling block you will have no problem convincing yourself to avoid almost all of your ideas. At times a non-expert can offer some fairly amazing basic ideas that can be built on and developed by the experts. I often find myself ruling out too many ideas because I am almost always able to find a few faults. Usually all I find are some minor faults and I convince myself there must be a better way so I scrap it. I have wound up coming back to so many of the scrapped ideas and found ways around the faults and had an excellent result. You can think of this as going out of the box. It does not always work but it is definitely a good way to generate some new ideas. Keep the ideas coming everyone. Maybe sharks with laser beams....

I have heard that Russia has used underground Nuclear blasts to collapse damaged drill pipes in deep water. Not saying we should go nuclear but maybe a concussive collapse is in order? Drill a few bore holes around the main line and set of a coordinated series of charges focusing a massive shock wave to compress and implode the pipe and any voids around it. It's one way to use up some of the smaller nukes we have. I don't have much information on how Russia solved the problems with nukes but There must be an underground "Ocean floor" depth that offers the best odds for a near full containment of a nuclear blast. Maybe the sea life would glow for a few hundred thousand years... At least it wouldn't taste like oil. This is one of those "sounds simple" ideas with many, many complex hurdles and design challenges but it could be a good way to ignite an alternative idea and hopefully a solution.

Also, why not use a set of shape charges to blast off the damaged section of pipe so it could be capped? Set of some clearing charges to remove the sand away from the buried, undamaged section of pipe and send an ROV to strap on a nice shaped charge Tiffany's bracelet. Result could be a nice semi jagged vertical pipe that can now be capped.

There must be a lot more details that we are not aware of that make these kinds of approaches likely to fail or just completely not feasible. I wish BP would release a real tech article showing the nature of the beast. How can BP ask the public for any ideas but not disclose the exact nature of the problem and condition? I am sure they are doing all they can and I would hate to be in BP's shoes but the government really needs to step up and offer funding to any company/foreign governments that can help resolve this issue. Deal with the financial burdens and repayment once this is resolved.

Cap the well with your pride and get it back later.

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#17
In reply to #14

Re: Cap it with out of the box ideas...

05/22/2010 6:55 PM

Hi Brian

Regarding the use of explosives go to the links and have a look at my suggestions from weeks back. It was just a basic idea when it started but the more information (misinformation) I am subjected to the more I am convinced that it should and could be done.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/54030#newcomments

Out of frustration I started a separate thread here:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/54457#newcomments

I think there are now 5 or 6 threads dealing with the problem (just in CR4) and I can't help but get back to my original idea. Not one of the distinguished repliers have convinced me that it could not be done. They never took the time to read or I am just a bad technical writer. I am definitely not an expert but have a good understanding of what would happen if an explosives expert would be introduced to the problem of charge size, timing and direction of blast. Nukes are just not needed at all.

I will spare the others on this thread with another sketch here, one should go back and have another look. If I would have been given permission to go ahead, the oil/gas flow would have stopped by now and they could have continued with drilling relief bores/wells. Here is an image that gives a better understanding of the scale of things.

I found this image 2 weeks after I had made my sketch and if it is accurate it would confirm my understanding of the geological situation. Rorschach (if you ever read as far as this in my posts), eat your heart out Mate. Your destructive comments have fueled and not discouraged me. You might know what you are talking about but you have the cunning ability to just brush things aside if they do not correlate with what you know and, with all due respect, you must have been practicing for many years.

My sketches may not go into all of the details of how this would work but then I don't have the time nor experience to do the fully blown step by step procedure protocol. I think only one of the respondents to my suggestions has recognized the incredible skill these Master Blasters have. Like carving a swimming pool out of rock (If I can trust the witness, sorry Mate) and that inside a house!!

All the tools/hardware needed are on site. The geology is known. No need to drill to 15.000 feet. 1000 feet would be enough to contain a controlled explosion. There seems to be enough "free" space around the original BOP to be able to drill. Just shut the thing up, once and for all. Do it bloody now and stop looking at this suggestion as some freakish idea. I am more and more convinced that it will work and lame excuses like the spilling of oil after the event are just not going to happen.

Read more carefully and not just fly over with a preconceived mind set or going by past over the top suggestions I have made on other issues. There is a good reason why there are 5 separate explosion in my plan of attack. It could be 30 or 50 charges if need be, whatever is decided by the people in the know, one after the other. The second sealing the first and so on. I have explained in the links provided.

If you find the time, have a look and let me know were I have gone wrong or overboard. Belittling me is only going to strengthen my resolve and posts like yours, independently conceived, are very encouraging. I don't think this suggestion will ever get to the people in charge but this way I can rest in peace and I can lie to myself that I have tried every thing in my power to get this concept to be looked at.

I am working on problems regarding other projects of mine. From equity financing to designing the smallest parts and their interaction with electrochemical processes and on and on. Some very relevant to what is happening here. These derive from some vision(s) which I had years ago. You have no idea how stubborn I can be and making a fool of myself, time and time again, is just a trait of mine. Masochist? I don't think so! A clown feeds on laughter. Tears, he has for desert.

Throwing my hat into the ring is by now imperative. I would be a weak man if I not stood for my convictions however contrary to public, specialist belief. If it works in my head it can be made to work and faster and could be used in the future. You know, this is not the last time this is going to happen.

I better get on with things and would not have reacted if not for the similarity of our train of thought. Yep, I'm still at it.

Some one posted this link yesterday. A pity we don't have such shows here in Australia. IPMSL.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-may-13-2010/there-will-be-blame

Hope all goes well, Ky.

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#30
In reply to #17

Re: Cap it with out of the box ideas...

06/03/2010 12:18 PM

The Answer to Stop the Flow- read Reversengineer007.

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: Cap it with out of the box ideas...

06/03/2010 6:12 PM

Well, it looks like you sent them a picture but I still have no idea what you have or are suggesting. Am I missing something somewhere on another thread?

To get your spirits up, guess how many times I got a chainsaw stuck in a tree and needed other means to get it out? Yep, only once. Any lumber jack could have told them that this could happen. Experts my back side. It is embarrassing to watch.

Want to give me a hint on your idea 007 or do you just want me to read and make up my mind about what you are suggesting that way? Sorry if I missed it somewhere, Ky.

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: Cap it with out of the box ideas...

06/03/2010 7:31 PM

Well, I wish I had only done it once, but the minute they said stuck saw, I knew exactly what happened. They either didn't wedge as they went or else the pipe twisted on them. I'd suspect twist; that happens to me on blowdowns.

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#33
In reply to #32

Re: Cap it with out of the box ideas...

06/03/2010 7:43 PM

Well now is that stupid or what? I mean really. I would have liked to have seen the face of the guy in charge when it happened. How can one make fun out of this! I know, one just wonders though.

Tears of laughter any one?

Hope all goes well, Ky.

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#35
In reply to #32

Re: Cap it with out of the box ideas...

06/03/2010 10:06 PM

I had faith in the hands doing this.

Now, I am wondering how much experience they actually have.

It is getting funny and I do have to laugh.

How many pinched fingers have you seen when cutting was done without wedges, or how many chopped off.

Quality all to hell, and now it seems like the RBI Culture totally destroyed all safety.

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#36
In reply to #35

Re: Cap it with out of the box ideas...

06/03/2010 10:36 PM

RBI Culture

Is it an expletive? Retarded Bloody Idiots maybe?

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: Cap it with out of the box ideas...

06/03/2010 10:58 PM

Retarded Bloody Idiots

That fits the bill better than anything I have seen done.

Risk Based Inspection.

API 580 and 581 are the written standards for this idiotic standard.

It is an accounting thing pawned off as an inspection tool, and I have never seen it work in any industry from the 1970's on in any of it's many named personas.

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#38
In reply to #37

Re: Cap it with out of the box ideas...

06/03/2010 11:11 PM

RBI's!

Good enough for me.

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#39
In reply to #30

Re: Cap it with out of the box ideas...

06/05/2010 12:29 AM

Read Reversengineer007 where, pray tell? I haven't seen your proposal anywhere yet. Just a lot of bragging about how it is sure to work. What's up with this James Bond, PE, intrigue?

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#40
In reply to #30

Re: Cap it with out of the box ideas...

06/05/2010 12:30 AM

Read Reversengineer007 where, pray tell? I haven't seen your proposal anywhere yet. Just a lot of bragging about how it is sure to work. What's up with this James Bond, PE, intrigue?

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#18
In reply to #11

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/22/2010 7:04 PM

DCaD

Good to see you again. I hope my recent post does not irritate you too much. That was well written and very down to earth. It makes me reconsider my approach, in some way, but I'll stick to my guns for the moment. Expert or not. Good answer from me any way, Ky.

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#22
In reply to #18

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/23/2010 12:03 AM

Hi KY,

Irritate me?!?!? Never (well, ALMOST never). Maybe my post was too critical, but I was focusing mostly on the original poster. Sometimes folks have what they believe are good ideas ... indeed may have some valid content ... but to accuse others of doing nothing is a little unfounded on their part.

Innovation and creativity are the foundation of who we are ... without it, nothing new would ever happen.

You stick to your guns ... I hope someone figures SOMETHING out.

Kind regards ...

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#12

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/21/2010 11:52 PM

So, does anyone here really believe that BP does not want to plug the pipe?

They would love to plug the pipe, and if they could have done it weeks ago they would have. Just based on the oil production wasted and the dollars lost. Not to mention the public relations nightmare and the threat to future business in the US and in the Gulf of Mexico if you want to look at the greed motivition.

I don't work for BP, but I have plenty of colleagues that do, and they are smart, hard working, concerned, and caring people. I fully believe they are doing everything in their power to find a way to plug the freaking pipe.

All over the internet, and even here at CR4 there is stupid (yes stupid) commentary about how evil BP is. BP is not some demonic being, BP is thousands of hard working people trying to make a living just like you and me. Engineers, scientists, mechanics, technicians, business people, etc. They are your neighbors and I am getting pretty damn tired of them getting called incompetent, uncaring, destructive, idiotic, and lots of other names.

A quote I read today on yahoo:

"It's clear BP has been lying about what has been going on,'' said Rep. Edward Markey , D- Mass. "I just think it's time to stop listening to BP and bring in real scientists to ensure we are dealing with the facts."

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#16
In reply to #12

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/22/2010 2:01 PM

As somebody in the industry, you might give everybody some rough idea of what it would look like if a halfway attempt managed to dislodge or completely rupture the BOP. How much oil could we expect? That might put it in perspective for us.

But, I do disagree somewhat about blame. If I had to make a list of the people to blame for this, BP would definitely be on there. It might look something this:

1. All of us who leave lights on or drive twenty miles to the store for two items;

2. The oil companies;

3. The governments - federal and state;

4. Those of us scared to death of nuclear power;

5. The Coast Guard;

6. The drilling companies;

7. All of us unwilling to pay an extra $.40 a gallon for gas to pay for increased safety regulation;

8. The news media who promote the idea that science always has a "magic bullet" to fix anything.

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#20
In reply to #12

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/22/2010 7:51 PM

Hi Steve,

I don't know why it is that so many liberals people always want to demonize the oil industry. They would not be in business if there wasn't a demand originating with all of us (including them).

Anyway, GA!

Mike

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#24
In reply to #12

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/23/2010 7:14 AM

To the cr4 moderators, I really wish you had just pulled the post rather than editing it.

It also would have been nice to let me know you edited it.

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#26
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Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/23/2010 3:07 PM

It looks as though they edited the OP as well. I think it was an unwise edit, but once they did that, your post 12 would would no longer look like a parody, but more like a foul rant. I liked it better in its original form (GA). It's still a GA, but not quite as G.

BP ought to hire Chrisg288 to put out some explanatory animations. Also, somebody there should monitor these CR4 threads as part of a brainstorming effort. Even unfeasible ideas should at least be checked out for possible modification.

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#25
In reply to #12

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/23/2010 2:49 PM

I would not like to walk in their shoes today. What we all deal with now is the result of the poor, and ample PR and communication the company has provided to the public. I call it lack of information. And in our society that is not without suspicion. After 1 month, today, there was some first real film close to the spill, and from a well orchestrated angle. Measuring the spill and giving correct answers is very difficult, because the process down there is difficult to characterize and might be even changing over time. But keeping the info until the last minute and locking out input from outside is not what a modern, democratic society will get used too. Once again, it will be a lesson for the whole world, of the consequences, effecting the life quality of the planet, when taking risks that have not been anticipated for. A GA for your post.

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#28
In reply to #12

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/24/2010 8:39 AM

OMG, "real scientists", the ones form academia who cannot make it in the real world.

Give me a "frakin" break, where do these fools get there ideas, but from the front lines of innovation.

Look at how screwed up NASA is, with the money wasting that has gone on there since day 1.

Never seen a politician yet who couldn't find a new committee or law to ideate per his political advancement.

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#29
In reply to #12

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

06/03/2010 12:07 PM

Yes! BP does not really care-if they did they would have already put my device into the hands of people who can understand elementry mechanics- and had a working device within 48 hours. It is very easy to totally stop the leak 100% with this device that I sent them a picture of, spelling out the very simple procedure to make and install the device and they can also get the oil flow to topside safely.. By now I believe they have no interest in any persons idea in the outside world having an elementry engineering- selfmade degree from the school of hard knocks. To all who have injected the veins of BP officials with an idea-suggestion to stop- plug the hole- it is so simple so very easy that a friend has a kid that understands very well this device will work- simply because BP verified it by the fact- they attempted to plug the hole with crap- that shows the mentality of the supposed intelligent engineers having a super lot of BP-BS. We are dealling with GREEDY selfserving oil sheiks. Check the fuel prices NOW! If they stay in business they will pass this Blunder on to us in $$$$$$$$ at the pump.

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#34
In reply to #29

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

06/03/2010 9:05 PM

Did you post "your thing" here on the forum too? I guess many would have a look at it. You could join the club of frustrated posters afterwards to stay healthy. It should give your post more sense too.

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#13

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/22/2010 12:37 AM

why not squeeze the pipe shut using a massive hydraulic jaw or hammer the bloody thing together. or why cannot it be cut and a self locking valve be secured to the pipe. Tapered fit that slides over pipe but as two pieces are tightened the unit tightens on the pipe.

Surely they have robots that can do work such as this and weld etc.

If not they should not be deep sea drilling.

i bet there will be laws demanding all well heads in future will be protected and valved in the future.

In this day and age what has occured is criminal.

solar aussie

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#15
In reply to #13

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/22/2010 11:20 AM

why not squeeze the pipe shut using a massive hydraulic jaw or hammer the bloody thing together. or why cannot it be cut and a self locking valve be secured to the pipe. Tapered fit that slides over pipe but as two pieces are tightened the unit tightens on the pipe.

These are called Blow Out Preventers (BOP's) These are what failed because there is a combination of casing, drill pipe, and cement all in the bop's at the same time. (as I understand it.)

Hydraulics are required to be supermassive things when they are 5000 feet under water. because the operating pressure has to be added to the ambient pressure to be effective, and still designed to close off against the well bore pressure.

Chris

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#27
In reply to #15

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/23/2010 4:20 PM

Chris,

Strategy

Their think path is polarized

With pros and contras

Of course the pipe can be strangled

And if the pipe is not strong enough to withstand it, they can leave the jaw on it, who cares?

Where? and what however, will be the next problem?

With what we know there is not a lot of logic in the events.

What we do NOT know, is I think a different question.

Maybe the answer should be looked for in that?

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#19

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/22/2010 7:25 PM

Sudden loadings, as from explosives, might simply shear the outer pipe, or even break it off "cleanly," thereby increasing the leak. I would guess that a set of rollers around the pipe could gradually be pressed inward, thereby swaging the pipe down tight to the drill string. But that's only on framentary information as I understand it. (Such as hardness vs ductility of the pipe material.)

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#21
In reply to #19

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/22/2010 8:59 PM

There is this guy and he goes to see a shrink.

Dr.: "What seems to be your problem?"

Guy: "Every body keeps ignoring me!!"

Dr. to nurse: "Next please"

Me to myself: "is this really worth it?"

Me to myself again: "Yep, at least I am not hurting any one"

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#23
In reply to #21

Re: How About Concentrating on One Thing

05/23/2010 12:59 AM

OW!

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