Electrical Installation In Stone House

You will need to consult with your local (Greek?) electrical regulations.

In Australia, the standards dictates that cable must be run in a conduit if it is to be exposed in an area that is openly accessible by people.

IP rated power points and light switches are by virtue function over form. I could suggest that you have a look at these sites for some inspiration.

http://www.clipsal.com.au/

http://www.hpm.com.au/

I realise that the power outlets won't be compatible locally to you as they're standard for Oz and New Zealand (and some associated Pacific Islands).

As for the asthetics of running conduit? Neatness counts, clips placed at regular intervals.

You could try using a diamond/concrete cutting saw to make a trench in the stone to bury the conduit in.

Thanx for the pointers, but I guess the biggest problem is to open holes to embed the switches and powerpoints, beyond digging for the conduits. I have tried the diamond saw you mentioned, but cutting is really difficult. That stone is amazingly hard. I will either have to pay dearly someone to do it, or do it myself and get my ear drums severely injured for the rest of my life!...

I wouldn't mind using "external" switches and powerpoints, provided they were nice. Unfortunately, as far as I know no company has created a series of good looking stuff for such cases.

well u shud look for an aesthetic wiring solution which look artistic and add to the buildings beauty

u can think of distributing ur lighting by droping cable from roof top with switches located at some small control room at ground

You could place the outlets in the base board molding and the switches in the molding around the door. You may have to replace what you have there now to get a good appearance. Some what larger and decorative that will be able to handle the cover plate with out looking too crowded. I would though check with local electrical codes.

Yes, I could place the powerpoints low and hide them nicely in a raceway. Only that I will have to allow for two horizontal circuits, one above (to serve the switches, lighting, etc.) and one at the base board. My idea so far is to connect these two horizontal lines with vertical lines at the corners, where the raceways wouldn't look ugly (and maybe hide some minor construction faults!)

Anyway, the issue of the switches remains. Another idea is to use a box (wooden with some fire proof lining inside?) to embed the switches. I wonder if this would look better, than some nice looking "external" switches. I'm still on the quest for the latter...

By the way, is it a good idea to use remote controlling solely and skip switches completely? (Or have them all in one central control place, to be more precise.)

I would also place the powersupply low in a skirting/trunking conduit, and then run a number of vertical lines where needed. But i will then cover the vertical runs neatly with a stone tile matching the stone already there. I dont know if this "tile" is available in your area, but first glance wont show the extra "stonework" The cables can also be "surfix", which obviate the need for conduit. The tile over the surfix will further protect the cabling. You may also be able to find a good mason that is prepared to cut some tiles to match your stonework. There will also be no need for slots or chisseling or straining your ears.Good luck.

Some ceiling fans are operated using a remote. Could you do that with the lights?

Vertical runs of MICC cable with surface-mount fittings may be the answer, perhaps? With a copper outer sheath which dulls in colour over time and the current-carrying conductors being a size smaller than plastic-covered conductors (leading to a smaller cross-section of cable), they don't look too out-of-place. MICC isn't readily available in most DIY superstores and may require installation by a specialist contractor.

High IP ratings are unneccessary for indoor use.

At all times, follow local installation regulations. In the UK BS7671 applies, for example; one would obtain a test certificate from a competent person in accordance with part P of the Building Regulations upon completion and keep the user copy ready for when the building changes ownership.

Along with the other great suggestions posted here, have you considered Wiremold?

Wiremold is a global company so availability should not be a problem but you would need to check with your local AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) to see if it would be permitted first.

Check out this link which has examples of the product (you would need to find a local distributor); http://www.wescodirect.com/direct/images/products/pdf/085_Elec08.pdf

I have done a lot of work for UOC Chicago over the years. Most of the campus buildings were built around the turn of the century and have very ornate interior plaster work. The ornate plaster work prevents us from cutting a channel to conceal conduit for repair and/or remodel work. In addition, many interior building walls/ceilings are solid quarried stone and channeling is just not possible.

I suggested Wiremold to the Chancellor (who is very protective of his campus architecture) and did a mock up for him. He was very pleased with the results and Wiremold is now one of the standard wiring methods where existing esthetic's or structure prevent wall/ceiling channeling at the university.

Wiremold also carries standard switch/receptacle boxes and covers which should remedy your switch delima.

You can get very creative with routing of this product to make it less visually intrusive.

Good luck with you project!

Hi

As one post said, not sure of the electrical rules for Greece, but here in the UK, our rules dictate which direction the cable runs, what size of cables, the configuration etc.

with all that said and lets assume you are conforming to your local rules, I think you need to be creative here in the cosmetic "hiding" of the cables.

You mentioned in a reply that you are thinking of putting the power sockets "low", I am going to assume that there is no restriction on the hight above the floor, that is you can place your power sockets about 4 cm above the floor, that being the case do you have what we call a "skirting board", a plank of wood that is fixed to the wall at floor level, resting on the floor to hide the joint between wall and floor?

If so then you could either surface mount your power sockets to the wood or sink the power outlet into the wood and run and hide the cable behind the wood, being careful NOT to put your screws or nails in to the cable. If you don't have wood and have ceramic tiles, the cut a rough channel in the wall behind the tiles (take the old ones off) surface mount your power outlet above the new tiles and run your cable, replace the new tiles and cable is hidden

As for light switches, most light switches are placed near the entry point of the room, a door or a passageway. If you have a door and that doorway has a wooden surround/frame, then you can hide the supply cable behind the wood, and by running horizontally out from vertical wooden door surround a small length of cable for the light switch and hopefully burying it in the wall at the correct height, you will not have to make very long and time consuming channels for the cable in the walls.

You could continue the cosmetic wood from floor to ceiling if cables are coming from above, if you have open wooden beams in the roof space, the you could think about clipping the cable on top of the wooded beams and drilling through for light fittings.

So you are not burying the cable into the stone wall which requires the use of conduit for protection of the cable, but placing the cable on the wall surface and and hiding it/protecting it with wood.

If you don't want to start grinding/diamond cutting the walls then concealment is the best option, but be aware it will take time and you must be careful with your planning and routing of the cables

As for the outlets and switches, is that a local requirement or are you saying that what you need to use, if you conceal the cables I see no reason why you can't use standard off the shelf outlets/switches. Try and get brass faced ones, it adds a bit of subtle "bling"

Hi,

there is no stone too hard,

you can easily cut with a circular saw, either metallic blades with diamond impregnation (be sure to get a quality that can survive non-wet conditions) or phenolic impregnated with silicon-carbide.

Usually in nature quartz is the hardest to cut - unless you are in a stone that contains alumina or garnet - and these can be cut with any diamond saw.

If using electrical equipment in a wet environment then you can get some big benefit from an isolation transformer between your mains and the equipment. This will prevent you from being electrically shocked or killed by currents from the motor to earth by the wet layer you will sprinkle everywhere.

I regularly use circular saws with diamond blades from 10cm diameter to 32 cm diameter, we did cut granite, basalt, many more volcanic rock samples, pure quartz.

Never had any problems except not enough practice.

There are also available these circular saws with two blades in parallel to cut slots for electrical lines. The remaining ridge between the two slots to be removed with chisel and hammer. This may make better work.

And you should by a carbide or diamond tipped tube-like drill. An ordinary drill in the center with a tube of the diameter that will fit your switches around.

Look for examples at HILTI websites.

Don't spoil the aesthetics of old sites!

Have success!

RHABE

Thanx man. I was trying with an angular saw with diamond wheel and it took me ages to cut some slots and then some more ages to chisel the material in between by using a pneumatic drill (no way to hammer it manually). Maybe if I use a real circular saw I will have better results. I tried to avoid the cost of buying one, as I'm not a professional installer... maybe I will rent one.

As for drilling for the sockets and switches, I did use a cup saw for concrete, but apparently it wasn't good enough to open holes in the stone! Amazingly, I haven't found a diamond cup around here. And, it's bloody 4cm to go deep...

By the way, do you recommend hiding the horizontal lines high up inside conduits, when the cables are NYY's? Maybe bare NYY's are easier to curve around the woodwork of the middle floor and hide better. The regulations seem to ask for conduits always, but NYYs are supposed to be manufactured for naked use, aren't they? PWSlack also proposed the MICC cables but they sound too expensive and difficult to install.

I have all sort of nagging issues, but at least, this is a good engineering (and artistic) exercise, isn't it? It's only that my wife need the work done fast, otherwise, I will lose some of my esteem as the "man of the house".

"Off topic" mode:

By the way, how an isolation transformer protect you from shocks? The residual current switch won't sense a differential current behind the transformer, am I wrong? Do the transforems balance the lines to +110 and -110 in respect to earth? (I doubt it is so, as this cancels all the electrical installation philosophy which asks for one single hot wire...)

Makita tools make a saw specially for diamond 8" blade that runs on 220V and is waterproof to be able to spray water on the blade via a built in nozzle. Very quick cutting. Also see my post below. Enjoy.

It is possible to put you switches and recepticles in the walls while running your wiring in the wall but it will take time. I don't think that its a case of the stone being too hard as much as the case being that you came into the project not expecting it to be as difficult and time consuming as it has turned out to be.

Do as much of your wiring as possible in the floor and then rise vertically in the wall to the point of the recepticle/switch. This is not easy work. Prepare your mind.

I usually use my hammer drill with a 1/2" to 3/4" bit to create a trail of shallow holes about an inch apart in the wall surface and then use a chisel bit on my jack/chipping hammer to remove the material between the holes(connect the dots).

Hope that helps.

There are special double saws which cut to a preset depth in any hard material, then you chip the "island" out with a hammer and chisel.

There are units for using on a normal electrical drill, but most home drills are simply not powerful enough, so buy the right tool with its integrated motor. You can always sell it on afterwards.....but do buy a new one as some 2nd hand ones maybe worn out from a company...

Check this out and Metabo is a good make. The pictures tell it all:-

http://toolmonger.com/2009/12/17/ill-have-concrete-with-a-wall-chaser/

Or you could mount an ornate wood piece, at least an inch deep (2" would be better or only use surface mount switches....), hollowed out at the back, to cover up the cables and to put the sockets and switches in......get a friend with a home CNC to make it look really ornate and attractive....use a good hard wood like Oak....varnish it......make it a work of art....talking point!!

You asked:-

By the way, how an isolation transformer protect you from shocks? The residual current switch won't sense a differential current behind the transformer, am I wrong? Do the transforems balance the lines to +110 and -110 in respect to earth? (I doubt it is so, as this cancels all the electrical installation philosophy which asks for one single hot wire...)

You put another one in AFTER the transformer!!!

Hi,

if you have a good equipment then 2 m of a slot shall be done within 30 min.

Be cautious with dust! Any quartz will generate highly toxic dust. If sufficiently inhaled then your residual lifespan will be near 3 months.

So use the below recommended water-spray good for your health and good for the lifetime of the diamond blade.

Use additional breathing filter as the small water droplets will carry some quartz and should not be inhaled. Although if stuck in your nose then no problems (?).

Carbide tipped cup saws will not easily go into granite or quartzite unless you have a full professional hammer-drill (a big one).

If you work by hand you will have to use a 1 kg minimum hammer (better 2Kg) together with a 2 to 3 mm nose radius of your carbide-tipped chisel.

Maybe a trial to replace your cup by many 6mm holes and then try handwork.

I have no idea what are NYY cables, I am using ordinary PVC isolation in all household applications up to 400V 3phase.

RHABE

Had this challenge a few times. Check the age of the building and then the special provisions (If any) for historic building modernisation.

Running the bulk of the cables in the floor screed or under wooden floors will solve a lot of your problems. The use of surflex often does not require use of conduit tubes. Run the cable (it is shielded) in between the stone. You may have to widen the slot with a diamond cutting disc of using a high speed diamond round-head bit in a die grinder. A pneumatic grinder with a light spray of water from a garden pesticide sprayer works well and keeps the dust down to a minimum. A narrow masons chisel will take longer. Do a few "false Runs" off the mail line to camouflage your wire run if the stone is very tightly fitted. On one building I took a moulding with plaster-of-paris of the stone where the switch/socket needed to go. Then chiselled out the stone. Used sand and resin to make a facing in the plaster mould that included the plastic switch housing facing. Standard switch housing and socket housings were then mounted and the "False Stone" covers fitted. A lot of work, but very effective and almost invisible.

Forgive me for suggesting the bleedin' obvious, but why not run surface conduit, but cover it with decorative woodwork? Ceiling and floor moldings are the obvious means of concealment. Vertical runs can be disguised as decorative wooden details in the plastered walls.

Because it looks bad - an obvious patch job. When doing an expensive remodel the last thing one wants is to have it look like crap upon completion.

It doesn't have to be obvious.

If you have a stone wall and then wooden strips & boxes running around?

Main power lines can be hidden up in the ceilings, in the corners of the rooms or along the floor joists. Switch can be done through remotely operated devices. Main controls for both manual and remote switching capabilities can be hidden in the garage or a small room dedicated for such purpose. This approach will address any wirings associated with any equipment in the house. more ugly wirings for

What is the power for? Lighting only or electrical appliances also? If for lighting only, you could go with a low voltage system (12 V). The wires are smaller and more easily hidden. If the latter, can you place the switches and receptacles in furniture and wire to surface conduit (wiremold or equal) The other possibility would be to run conduit on the outside of the house and drill through the walls at the point of use.

smaller cables for 12V? For the same output of light?

I nearly said it......but then I thought of LED based lights taking so little power. CFLs too but they are mains driven.....

LEDs are good for point lighting but still fair for general lighting - unless you spend a fortune on each bulb.

You would still have the normal requirements - a fan, radio, TV etc - 12V won't get it.

It can, I use all 12 volt stuff in my caravan. The TV screen is not that huge, but the picture is great.

The sat receiver runs on 12 volts too.....only the VCR needs mains!!

That's the type of lighting I was thinking of. The type of fixtures used in trailers and motor homes, using 12V automotive bulbs.

There have been many suggestions of running the cable/conduit on the surface - possibly hidden with wood.

To me that would be ugly - red neck heaven!

Google "Wiremold" products. Check local codes. -- JHF

Do you have very high ceilings, Do your Wood door & window jams go near the ceiling

If so - - the way you build/design the faceboards up the side of the wall can accomadate a board with large enough groove cut into the back of it to hide the wire Verticle and in the same way by using waynescotting boards around the walls horizontilly, Wall swithes could be installed in a hollow wood box with a wood finish face. Your workmanship, seems to me, would be high enough quality to build these sitiation into the wall & ceiling Pattern Styling.

Can't help with the power run, but there are some very nice wireless switches available. No wires or batteries needed. They use the energy of operating the switch to generate the power needed for the RF transmitter. Here's one source.

Use wireless controls for all devices.This will eliminate the visible switch leg, and make for a neater job.

Have you looked into FlatWire? If you drywall some/all of your walls, you can hide the wiring under paint or wallpaper. It might work with plastered walls, too.

http://www.flatwirestore.com/mm5/merchant.mvc

If the house were completely gutted for the re-model and you really wanted to bury the wiring inside the stone, and presuming you had someone who really knew what he was doing, I would seriously think of cutting the wire runs and switch recesses explosively, using small shaped charges.

Sounds crazy, I know, but a shaped explosive can slice through stone like cheese, and can be controlled very precisely for depth. When I was with EODMU-1 in Hawaii, we did a lot of explosive cutting and drilling, often just for the practice.

This sounds a little off the wall, but could work. Run your electrical through metal channels and wall mount your boxes, then hire a faux painter to blend channel and boxes to background stone. Someone proficient in faux painting would be able to accomplish fairly easily, and would be able to practically make them disappear.

I would start by painting channel and boxes a suitable base color, prior to installation. Followed by matching individual background stones and stone joints after installation.

Remind me not to hire you as an interior architect!

You'd be surprised at the things that can be done with paint, sand, clay, etc. An architect I am not, but I bet I can make a piece of channel blend in with the stone behind it. Just throwing it out there. It may be able to be combined with some of the other ideas here to achieve the desired results.

tkot,

Interesting to see so many ideas that prompt me to think.

1. Run lighting circuits in ceiling or on top of stone walls.Light switches can be control by hand held remote control.Such products ( mechanically switching normal switches was available more than 15 years ago.Now electronic type is available )

2. Power circuits installed under floor with under-floor trunkings and junction/power outlet boxes just as in a wide office space.If the floor is already completed,you can run cables at the corner between walls and floor and cover it with new stone skirting along the whole line.If power socket is required at table level,small vertical pvc trunking may be used. You can apply clear epoxy glue on the expose pvc surfaces and apply fine sand that has colour near to the stone.Alternatively run cable on the other side of the wall ( store,stair ) and drill through the wall to the power socket outlet.

Regards,

Khor