Ethics In Quoting Jobs

Agree ozzb - you can't shake hands or "talk" over the price anymore - you need it in writing.

Net - you know this guy might've been trying to get away from this part as well - maybe not in his wheelhouse...

That, or he is one greedy fellow, and maybe thinks you can't go elsewhere -"curves & stuff" doesn't cut it

Two things crossed my mind.

One, he just doesn;t want to do the job and figures a high price will run me off.

Two, he knows this is a very specialty part. He may figured I was stuck with him as a vendor being as I had orders for nets that went with this implement....and would go to any price level given this is our busy season ( too late to start shopping for a machine shop).

I am such a dinosaur. I still want to belive that your word and a hand shake means something.

.......anyway, I am sure there is another small machine shop somewhere that can do 'curves and stuff '...........

Because it is your busy season maybe why the bump in price. He got so much work from every one else, you want it done you got pay the price. He maybe swamped but he is not going to turn away work for a good profit.

If he is basing the increase price on the curves and stuff must have dinosaur equipment.

Next time get the quote in writing with with an expiration date.

Netmaker, unfortunately, far too many people (and this guy is one of them apparently)do NOT abide by their word. And unfortunately you'll have a hard time taking a verbal agreement to court to enforce it.

next time, make him WRITE OUT THE QUOTE and SIGN it. then if he tried to jack up the price when you go to pick it up, you can sue his worthless butt.

Meanwhile, if you have prints/drawings/pictures of the device, send em to me and I'll betcha i can find you a machine shop over here in houston that can make it that won't screw you over. you might have to have a hot shot come get it though....

Thank you for that offer. I don't want to get down on this guy too much. He did an excellent job and I did leave him open for adding on any extra costing by NOT asking for anything in writing. All is all, I have to assume some blame in this. Its ethical on MY PART.

I do not do court.

I do, "knock on office door" and discuss stuff eye ball to eyeball.

These things weigh under 25 kg when finsihed in steel. They can go FEDEX!

I have one more job shop to look at . they build boats for crawfishermen ( both the hydraulic models for the ponds and the Turned Up bow for the swamp.

I was told they do excellnet work and can roll radius in both steel and aluminum.

Thank you for the offer. I'll PM you later.

Any business worth a damn would eat the cost exceeding their quote, and learn from the mistake. (But then, any business worth a damn won't make such a huge error in a quote.)

Did you get quotes from any other shops before accepting this one?

Yes. The costing was around the $1000 mark but they said they could not promise any delivery date as when the oil field work came in , small stuff like this would take a back seat.

Understood, but to MY business, this is NOT small stuff. I was looking for an old job shop with ol' skool work ethics...............looks like I am still looking. Ha ha!

IMHO - The machine shop proprietor has no ethics.

He should have called you when he was doing the first piece to discuss the up-charge with you before proceeding.

Do it to me once, I can say OK, maybe there was more involved. Do it to me twice and almost double the price, NO F'IN WAY.

This guy is a tool stool - run, do not walk away from this POS.

"Curves and stuff' PUULLEESSEEEE!

Find someone who's word (verbal or written) is his bond.

As my Dad always told me "A mans word is his bond, if his word is no good, he isn't worth a S**T.

^{_{OK my rant is over - signing off for now}}

I do love ...."its because of all the curves and stuff"....... and this from an old and established machine shop.

I'm gonn'a try that next week on those guys I am building a monster seine net for , to capture Asian carp. I'll just say I have to kick the cost up another 100% due to all the knots and rope and stuff .....Ha !

"due to all the knots and rope and stuff"

Now that is funny

It's common for some shops to do this kind of stuff when they don't want the job. They probably got in over their head when they took the job in the first place. I would guess that they are not particularly skilled in something as difficult as your part, and when they made the first part, they had so many problems due to it being beyond their abilities, that they didn't want to make any more. So they gave you some absurd price.

Just a guess, but I've seen this scene play out more than once.

Unethical? Of course.

Yes. I agree. It would have sat better with me just to be straight up. Heck, i refuse work every month. And sometimes the agencies I turn down SEND me new customers on a referral.

Your failure - nothing in writing.

You also found a machine shop with no morals. They should be "outed" on Facebook or Twitter or both.........without your name of course.......

I don't do FaceBook and I never do anonomous. Its sooo much easier to just say what you mean upfront. I told him that the cost was over what I was expecting and could live with. He made no comment and we just left it at that. Heck, his shop DID do a beautiful job, if only one time.

I do suspect now that he may have just wanted a way out as the curves and stuff may have been too much for his shop. However, he has the reputation as a job shop and the work they did was beautiful.

Folks want the easy stuff these days. Its the reason I have a decent small business with these research nets. We make the absolute weirdest and strangest designs. Hard? Yes. Time consuming? Yes again. But we stay busy.

I ate a job last month for the USDA. I quoted them on a 1500² ft Rocket Net for pigeon capture....only to re-read the quote and PO weeks later and notice it said TWO nets! They appreciated my predicament but still needed two nets for the quoted price as the paperwork on their end was a sealed deal and could not be altered without me defaulting. Lesson learned, be more careful with my paperwork.

The guy was ripping you off. I only add 15% for curves and stuff.

_Get it in writing, is right in this day and age. As cost of labor [Skilled] and the changing in cost of parts and equipment in completeing a job is constantly fluxuating, mostly higher daily and Items that in the past could be believed to be rebuilt and repaired are now built to last only a set time. In the 60's, I completed many a contract on a hand shake or a phone call, but had the opportunity to meet a man who would not fix your gutter, mow your field, repair your tractor or build you a barn, without pulling out a peice of paper and writing down exactly what you wanted and have you sign it..Looking back through the years, he got paid and I missed the boat quite a few times. Made a lot of friends but it didn't pay the bills...

Have it in writng is the best. I undertstand how that would expire being initially a small item.

But too rise the price twice and basically to almost triple the initial quote, I would have challenged the manager.

What probally happen, since it was initially a small job, he blew it off and just threw a number out.

Yep!

But I am still stuck looking for a shop that can do curves and stuff.

He must have learned work pricing from his car mechanic...

I was technical purchaser (closest englishword i got) for engineering along 11 years:When i was a new customer i showed my cash and i was behind them until they finished the job,if it was so much, i promised a cheq to pay as fast they end the job and when they discover that the company payd in form, no problem with 30 or more they make effective in bank.When i was old customer, i never paid without the job done not even a signature on materials receipt.But all of them knew my word was gold: i defended them when they needed sooner the money or missunderstanding with engineers.So i got anything what i need when i was hurry without any paper:i always care the prestige of my word.When i wasn't a company's purchaser anymore, just an inventor with money to pay the job i couldn't get a simple quotation from workshops:Not matter if you are already to give them a good and profitable job, they must know you becomes a regular and profitable customer.-

Understood. I made it quite clear that this was a new design of net the net would not operate without these implemnets . I also made it clear that numerous customers were waiting for the sea trials to be completed . When i came back to re-order I had 4 orders for these implemnts and several more pending.

i am just going to look around and see if someone out of state may have an interest.

thank you for your input.

He's sleezy. Go elsewhere.

His inability to accurately estimate is his fault not yours. Even the initial ramp up (fom 850 to 1350) is not excusable, in my book. I do this kind of thing at the agreed price, and chalk it up to good will. If there is more to it than expected, he is simply saying that he is incompetent at estimating.

It might be interesting for us to see what this implement looks like, and how "curvy" it is. (Maybe someone might even give a good bid on it.)

If the job shop saw that they couldn't make this part for the quoted price, maybe they should have been allowed to bail out, but only if they refunded any down payments.

Of course, they can ask for more, but you could turn them down and look elsewhere.

Their jump from $1350 to $2200 looks very suspicious.

just a simple thing with a coupla curves...

There are other curves I like better than this....

But we don't yet know what fits Netmaker's application.

I'd hate to see THAT quote and re-quote and final quote and the return business quote.......ha!

• 33" tall
• 14" wide
• 1/4" mild steel
• 5/16" holes
• 2- pieces like this
• * not shown * 6 pieces of 1/2" steel for weight shoes that fit at the bottom and are fastened with wing nuts They follow the same shape as the bottom plate that is welded.
• Center plate on reverse side has 4 - 5/16" holes drilled in it.

$1100 per piece complete x 2 = $2200

That appears to my amateur eye to be more than a tad too expensive for such an object......

What do the professionals say?

I know at least a couple shops that could definitely make those for certainly no more than the original $800 quote. The rule of thumb that I go by is to always get three different quotes from 3 different vendors. Always. No matter is you're buying a service, an off the shelf item, or a fabricated part. But especially a fabricated part. I often get 4 or 5 different quotes for custom parts. With that many options, you'll be able to assure yourself that you got the best possible deal that balances, price, quality, and delivery time. Some of the shops that I work with, I use so often, that I can on occasion go without a written quote. But that is just for the budgetary quote. A budgetary quote is one that you get quickly, use for comparison, and to estimate a job. It's generally accepted that a budgetary quote can be within 20% of the final quote. When you have finally made your choice... just as everyone said ... always get it in writing. But following these two rules at all times will prevent any problems like what you had, in the future.

1. Always get minimum of three competing quotes.

2. Always get it in writing.

You live and learn. Stuff like this happens sometimes, and you get screwed. Levels of ethics run from one extreme to the other. Be sure to let your peers know of the unscrupulousness of this particular shop. Word of mouth is a strong detriment against shoddy business practices.

I can see the first being more and it should have been, after that I can see it dropping to 800.00. The manager should have see that also, if you supplied him with a sketch or something to that effect.

When I did this kind of work, I would receive a RFQ from people that said that there will be multiple items, to please reflect that. Which turnout out to be BS. BUT if it wasn't and they were serious about the quantities, My quotes reflected that.

Example:

Such as for a qty of

1 = $2,000.00 ea

2-3 = 1800.00 ea

more that 3 = 1500.00 ea

I left him a finished product just like in the picture to copy from.

he should have known.

With a press brake and some jigs to serve as lower dies, and suitable quantities to be produced (say ≥ 10 pairs), I would guess around $750 per pair. However, it would take some time to build the jigs, which would increase the expense of the first set.

Too bad I don't have the right equipment, or I would take a shot at this. But then there would be the freight!

I received a PM from someone already about a shop in Kansas City.

If anyone has a shop in mind that can do "curves and stuff", please PM me. These peices weigh in at approx. 48 lbs per peice. $125-$175 gets them delivered anywhere from EASt of the Rockies to down here. No big issue.

Make no mistake, these guys did a superb job. They just scared me when they started jumping that quote 50-100% at a time. I do a lot of government business and you do not jump the quote on those guys unless you want a bad rep and default notice.

let me know if you all have any places in mind.

Thank you all.

I doubt that you would need to go any farther than one parish away from you to get a handful of quotes on your parts. Certainly no need to go out of state. Just google metal fabrication shops in your area, and email out a half dozen RFQ's. In fact, you might want to mention that you've had a bad experience from one shop, and are looking for someone with better business ethics. Some of them may go out of their way to try to show you that they are a reputable business (in this case, I wouldn't mention the bad shop by name); particularly if you let them know you're looking for a "go-to" shop for future projects that you may have from time to time. By one estimate, there are some 21,000 in the country. You'll have no trouble finding local shops other than those you've already contacted. I'm sure delivery would be much better.

Without sending the ONLY piece I have left, do I send pictures or do I try and draw the dimensions out..... or both?

Where did the original piece come from?

I can make the specs. The tolerances are low. There is some wiggle room on H and W as well in the radius of the inside fins. I can draft something decent, although not as professional as some of the folks on here.

the original came from a long time associate who designed this prototype. I have not been able to find him for some time now. At last contact he was no longer in business. He could be anywhere. Once again, I can make the specs.

Yeah the guy is an ar$e, but the bottom line is...
It doesn't matter if you have a quote in writing or anything, you can't make him take on a job.
It's just a minor inconvenience on lifes travels... maybe the guy has just found out he has cancer, maybe he's just a jerk. Try not to let it get you down and move on.
I wish I could take my own advice as things niggle at me and worry me...I'm still churning over stuff that happened when I was kid.
I'm getting better at shrugging and moving on, life does that for you.
By the time I'm dead I'll be quite chilled out.
Maybe it's just karma and you'll find someone who's glad to get the job.
Peace and chill from the Cat.
Del
_{(Any spare fish?)}

Thank you for the comments.

I have moved on and am looking elsewhere for a machine shop. I have a lot of work that does not require those type implements. Its just I have orders and I thought we had an agreement on costing,verbally and all that.

I'll just wait it out and find me a hungry shop that wants and needs the work.

As for extra fish, do you want the kind that glows in the dark or tells the temperature with their mercury contamination content ?

I don't move forward until I get it ALL in writing, then you can stick it to them. If that doesn't work, that's when it's time to bring in the law.

I must say, business is business. In the olden times, you did business with ole 'john down the street and his word was 'gold'. If he said a dollar it was a dollar no matter what happened. Now we do business big or small with Mr, GM, Mr. wally world, Mr. insurance, and Mr. Profit no matter what..If you don't like the price move over and let the man behind you move forward. you then become history..If you want to do business you must do it in a business manner. A quote is just a quote..by an employee.If you want a set price "Get it in Writing'.

I think you asked the wrong person. The shop foreman is concerned with what goes on within the shop. You should have been talking to the sales department and gotten it in writing.

Jeez guys... stop telling the man to get it in writing... it's still worth ZIP, they have no obligation to take on a job. An puhlease don't start on lawyers and the law, that would just cost a fortune and at the end of the day if a guy doesn't want to machine a part there is no power on earth that will make him... ok, maybe his wife of girlfriend.
Del

THANK YOU.

I get it.....handshakes and a man's word means squat!

..... and I am a dinosaur. ha ha

Del, if the guy doesn't want to do the job, he should simply no-bid it. Nobody is saying he has to bid on the job, only that if he does quote a price, if it is in writing, and he accepts the job, he is then legally bound (and not just honor bound.) to honor that bid. THAT is the part that irked us all, the guy jacked up the price between the time he accepted the job and when it was delivered.

his wife of girlfriend
Kinky.

Del,

I think the real value of getting the quote in writing is not so much to be able to use in suing the vendor into making the parts for the original quote but is to avoid having the vendor jack up the price after the fact.

It gives the customer legal standing in defending himself against the vendor should the vendor attempt to sue the customer for more than the quoted amount.

By they way, I am not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV either. Just trying to apply some common sense to the issue. Of course we all know that common sense can sometimes be irrelevant in legal matters.

There should also be a distinction made between estimates and quotes, which are often improperly used interchangeably.

One state I've lived in allowed the final price to be within 150% of the original estimate (written or otherwise), but the final price cannot be more if it was a quoted project. It's a subtle difference, but some states make the distinction.

So the lesson I've learned to avoid the end of job price gouge is not only to get it in writing, but make sure it doesn't say "estimate" on it.

I have eaten more mis-quotes than I care to admit. If I looked you in the eyeballs and told you something....it was as solid as stone. I expected no less from others.

However, my dinosaur business ethics are going extinct. Yes, yes, yes.....everythying in writing from now on and THAT is a shame.

Kinda interesting, When I had my design & fabricating business, I designed some OEM equipment for some Italian Cheese makers in the states with nothing more that a hand shake.

$70,000.00 piece of equipment, the only problems which were minor, which was changes. But it was like bartering on the streets of italy. At one point that had ask me what was the agreed on price, probally was testing me.

In the end, they received a High Production machine that exceeded their expectations, and I made a little money on it.

These were the only people that I would do this with. And how big was this company? Their company just hit a billion dollars last year.

btw, they are issuing P.O.'s now.

Sadly your comments are correct for todays market.......I feel we all know from where you are coming from.......best wishes for the future.

Back a decade or so when I was really involved with new designs in shrimp trawls, bycatch reduction and other commercial gears, I was approached by an old and traditional Japanese company that probably had MacArthur's name on their charter.

We met in New Orleans, exchanged small gifts, had lunch, he nodded with a "Hai" , I nodded back with an "agreed"....and we had 15 years of almost flawless business.

I would not try that these days, but none the less, there was a time when that was all it took.

Lets end the discussion. I have moved on. There is a small boat builder/job shop i am going visit next week and hopefully all will be well Cajun Country once again.

Perhaps you should forward the link to this thread to that supplier's email...

or perhaps that is too cruel, to expose unaware people to the razor sharp claws, teeth, and minds round here?

Chris

Naw.... no need for nasty. Its over and done for me and I am looking at other options. Besides, this compromises just one little part of my total amount of nets and associated gear. I just ventured out here on the forum with you all to see if other job shops did this.

I've had vendors try, but they don't last as vendors. The first time they do it is the last. and if they try to high-ball the bid to make me go away, i rarely come back. but if they simply say they are no-bidding it because they are too busy or feel the job is beyond their capabilities, I'm more than willing to give them a second chance on something else later on, at least they are being honest.