Ripped-Off By Retailers

"So we're at the point where integrity and ethical behavior must be externally legislated "

That's right! Where have you been?

I am speaking of integrity and ethicial behavior which was formerly commonplace in the absence of legislation, but which must now be legislated, evidently.

Thanks funny,

Yes, they should pass yet another law to bring integrity and ethics back in.

Lets throw in Honesty too.

I'm curious, anyone here find a change in a vending machine or a ....... phone booth ^{(whats a phone booth, I just dated myself)} and keep it?

Yes, it was Chinese. The money I mean.

We're from the same era.

Some of us still subscribe to the "honesty is the best policy" philosophy.

Unfortunately, many most do not. This is obvious every day in the business world.

The Milkins and Madoffs of the world have brought a new, obscene meaning to the construction of "the truth".

The Milkins and Madoffs of the world have brought a new, obscene meaning to the construction of "the truth".

There more to add to that list, You see, it depends what meaning of the word 'is' is.

Its coming back to attorneys.

Thank you attorneys!

One day it'll be their turn in the barrel, but only after they've first reduced this society to a shambles.

It's already come back to Madoff. His son committed suicide over his little adventure. Nice legacy you've left your family, Mr. Madoff.

What's left of it.

You guys are living in a dream world.

As much as we all hate to admit it, the days of "doing unto others" are gone forever.

If you still knew the family that owned the store where you bought the bad widget, or got overcharged, you would still find integrity, honesty, and character, or you wouldn't shop there and they wouldn't stay in business.

There are still people like that in business. I know, I deal with a few of them in a small town in Minnesota.

Dream world? I think the point 'the guys' (myself included), is that change will come from us, and not from governmental regulations.

So what you are saying is that it's all the consumer's fault for getting tricked? What an absolutely absurd position to take. You must be one of the manufacturers.

, No, but I would not call it a trick not would I call it absurd. Can it be decieving, well, Its best not to judge a book by its cover.

Design equipment for the food and dairy industry, And I know of a company that design an exact weight cutter to cut exactly 8 oz blocks of cheese. It did not perform, the manufacturer of this piece of equipment is out of business.

Walmart, used to be a stickler on this, they wanted their meat to be exact weight and fat content, and tried this, they found out that organics did not want to play their game.

But you have to admit, you have to be frugal and aware what you are buying.

Here is an example about pumping gas.

Here in Wisconsin, even having a government agency checking the pumps still does not help. But is a good explanation.

The point I'm making, You got spanked and education does not come cheap. And now you expect the government to take care of this?

How about do a little research yourself as your buying?

"And now you expect the government to take care of this?"

I never even mentioned the government! Where did that come from?

my mistake, I thought bbb had some of its funding from the fed?

What do you want, your congressman to hold your hand at the super and tell you which can of tuna is the better deal?

You sure like telling others what they "must be." Phoenix911 "must be one of the manufacturers." I "must be drunk."

Hey, whatever helps you avoid reconsidering your own views.

Your header is "Ripped-off by retailers". Your rant does not relate to retailers:
Volume of face cream - Manufacturer
An ice cream carton with a fake bottom - Manufacturer
Laundry detergent misrepresented - Manufacturer
Farmhouse Bacon, packaged to deceive you - Manufacturer
Cranberry Juice, packaged to deceive you - Manufacturer

Be a savvy shopper... read the labels.

Now, the gasoline, I'll go along with you there, the individual retailers can monkey with the dispensing equipment. A while ago I pumped (according the the dispensing meter) 23 and some gallons of fuel into my van; Ford published information says it has 18 gallon tank. I complained to clerk, blank stare. I filed a complaint with Weights and Measures, same response. Two days later the fuel station was locked up, closed. They knew they were going under, and decided to make some hay while the sun was still shining. Common thievery, the authorities had no interest in pursuing those easily identifiable as responsible.

Regarding "Months later, they replied with 'unless you can give us the exact address where this product is made, we will not do anything.'" Isn't the internet a wonderful thing? Shoulda come here to CR4, we would have found it for you.

"Be a savvy shopper... read the labels."

Yes, I must look out for a label that says "warning: this carton has a false bottom." "15.7 grams of face cream only occupies 20% of this container." Etc.

Come on, get real! We buy from the retailer, not the manufacturer. The buck stops at the retailer. They know what they are selling.

Get real, actually we are.

There is another saying, 'A fools money is soon departed.'

Is this thread going the way you expected.

It's "A fool and his money are soon parted" but the point is the same.

Then there's, "In God we trust, for all others we read the fine print."^{© 12-26-2012 LynDoor™Industries Quote of the Day Division.}

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It might be a good idea to read the fine print.

LynDoor™Industries Quote of the Day Division.

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It would appear to show that CR4 readers in the USA at least, are completely at ease with the "art of deception" being perpetrated on the consumer. Perhaps you enjoy the cat and mouse game that is being played, rather like poker or liar's dice. All part of the game. It certainly explains why people in the USA have very little trust in each other.

It would appear to show that CR4 readers in the USA at least, are completely at ease with the "art of deception" being perpetrated on the consumer.

I would not say at ease, I would say, street smart.......most of the times, learned through experience.

Perhaps you enjoy the cat and mouse game that is being played, rather like poker or liar's dice.

I don't enjoy it, I always felt, that your don't have to play the game, But you do have to know how the game is played.

It certainly explains why people in the USA have very little trust in each other.

On the net, you bet. Face to face not so much.

"Perhaps you enjoy the cat and mouse game". You are right, it is a game, as consumers, we did not invent it, but as consumers, we have to play it. We either get smart and play their game, read all the fine print, and play it to our advantage, or at least a level playing field. Or we can ignore the fine print, shop blindly, and cry every time we buy something that is not exactly as we thought it was. I choose to be an educated shopper, do my homework before making purchases and not be disappointed when I buy something that is not what I thought it was.

If you buy 16oz of ice cream in a 32oz container, you are still getting 16oz, are you expecting the container to be full at 32oz?

Lawyers are why, "people in the USA have very little trust in each other".

Many politicians are lawyers, so we're double cursed.

We Merkins are all completely comfortable with deception here in the USA, is it? And that's why we don't trust each other? Ah, well, maybe YOU are comfortable with it, given that you're most certainly comfortable MISrepresenting the entire bluddy country to a considerably international audience who might not know differently and, moreover, you didn't bluddy ask ME, nor MINE, nor anyone else here whether WE find such practices acceptable, did you? Certainly no more than I find your spokesmanship of me and mine truthful in the bluddy slightest. Here, tell you what: why don't you just back, nice and comfortable-like, and have a nice, hot cup of STFU on me? Is it a deal?

You must be drunk. Suggest you get a good night's sleep.

Drunk? I wouldn't know.

The retailer sets the price and to do so, has to know what to set the price to. He can set it according to a "markup" percentage (typical) or he can calculate each product item which would take much time.

I do not know what the agreement is now between the supplier and the grocery, but there was a time that the supplier paid the grocery a premium to get the best location on the shelves.

True at Lowe's, certainly.

"Retailing is a fascinating subject. It tells you how best to screw the consumer..."

Screwing the consumer is the end game? What a cynical point of view.

Effective retailing (in the context of this discussion) is about getting your product noticed, setting it apart and above the slew of competition. This may include making the 16 ounce ice cream package larger than it need to be, this allowing for more of those eye catching graphics.

The end game for anyone that supplies product to the general public is sales. I have learned to not become consumed by the hype and glitz of packaging, the packaging divisions of the manufacturers are looking for those easily swayed by buzzwords, shiny beads and pretty pictures. Victor mousetraps work just fine, a Chore-Boy scrubber performs as it always has, and Murphy Oil Soap has my business.

Murphy Oil! Excellent Choice!

It may be a cynical view, but a realistic one.

Aren't cynical views always promoted as being 'realistic'? No, they're cynical. Don't be a cynic, a person who, when he sees flowers, looks around for a coffin. There are other views just as 'realistic' as the cynical ones. You'll just make yourself miserable because it blinds you to the good in things and there is good in everything. Sometimes just hard to see.

The fault lies with the consumer, "Caveat Emptor" is the rule in the marketplace. Ignore the packaging and look at the weight, volume and ingredients, they're the only things that matter, just assume that everything else on the label is marketing hype. There is no regulation on what goes on the label or how it is packaged, as long as it doesn't conflict with those three things.

Beware of claims that are not directly translatable into common terms; 44 loads means nothing unless you look at the volume of the container, and still you can be fooled since the level of dilution is not disclosed. The only other clue you have is unit pricing, many times the "Gigantic, Money Saving" size costs more than buying two smaller sized packages for the same contents. "Buyer Beware" and good luck.

Hey! I just noticed my 2x4's are only 1 1/2" x 3 1/2"!

I was raised on a farm, and before I left, We operate a saw mill, and my brother was cutting his lumber to built his house.

He made every board oversized so that when we run it through the planer it would measure finish out to 2"x4", 2"x6", 2"x8", ect.

well the width isn't bad, but the thickness of the finished 2" did not fit in the standard pockets, and we had to plane them down to the standard size.........alot of lumber went into shavings.........I said this before, education does not come cheap.

It's a wonder they're still 96" long.

oh, thats a wonderful idea. Thanks lyn.

If bought as "studs", most are NOT still 96" long, and haven't been for at least ten years. They're short by two "2-by" thicknesses, one to represent the toe plate, and one the top plate of a wall; then an 8-foot length of wallboard, paneling, etc. covers the full height of the finished framing. "In the old days", the thickness of plasterboard and several coats of plaster lowered the ceiling, and baseboards and quarter-round molding completed the job just fine - and you got higher ceilings as a bonus.

Around here, if you buy a single container of Coke (tm) or similar from the cooler display, you ALWAYS need to check today's pricing. Almost always, there is a nearly 2:1 variation in price per ounce - and convenience stores must be exempt from posting the price per unit quantity, because often I haven't been able to find it there, though I do all the time in supermarkets. I've actually found 2-liter bottles priced BELOW 1-liter ones at times. I have also found the register ringing it up at significantly higher pricing than what's shown on the door or shelf edge. Dragging the clerk back to the display and demanding the posted price has worked every time [so far!], but I think that they are hoping that you'll have bought several items and the extra money will go unnoticed. About two months ago, I had a clerk try to tell me that the displayed price was accidentally left up after the sale had ended, but when I demanded that she accompany me back to the display - with several customers waiting in line - I was able to show her that the sale dates showed that it had just started!

then an 8-foot length of wallboard, paneling, etc. covers the full height of the finished framing.

We are working on the that 8 foot length...... with Americans evolving and getting rounder, they should also be getting shorter....

oh, and soda, it used to be it was sold in 24 can boxes, I thought I was getting a deal until when I looked and found oout it was 20 can boxes, until now, I didn't complain about it, but when it happened, I evolved.

It just occurred to me that Scott Adams should be able to come up with some good Dilbert strips with the comments here...

Dilbert, I loved that show.

And every organization has a 'Wally'.

Lets ask Wally his opinion on the matter............... btw, where is Wally?

When I worked in a large aerospace company we had a Wally in our department.

He'd go home for lunch every day and take a two hour nap.

He could take a simple task and milk it for days.

Strange... I don't recall working for an aerospace company...

You probably do more work accidently the Ray did on purpose.

Shorter studs? Lower ceilings? And here all along I thought I was getting taller.

My wife insists I get into shape. "Round is a shape, dear."

I'm afraid my preferences have gone largely ignored, mostly by me.

Do you realize that soda in the can or bottle accounts for only about 10% of the total cost, if that. The rest goes toward packaging, warehousing, transportation, advertising, wages, cost of doing business, taxes, etc.You may call it strategy, I call it deception. This is a topic very close to my heart. It ranks #3 after religion and politics.

Do you realize that soda in the can or bottle accounts for only about 10% of the total cost,

Actually I did, Packaging plays a huge cost in the product.

Just necking the can the savings in material is huge.

"As a result of these efforts today's can weighs about 0.48 ounce, down from about 0.66 ounce in the 1960s,"

You may call it strategy,

I don't recall calling it strategy.

But when ethics are brought up, I don't put much faith in ethics, because there is a form of ethics for everything. Hell, even Hitler had ethics. Who looks up to him?

"Hell, even Hitler had ethics. Who looks up to him?"

Plenty.

Plenty.

I missed that, .......... ahh, ............ you know what I mean?

Even Hitler had ethics. period..... hows that?

Yup, I know what you mean, but you know how we obsessive/compulsive twit inguneeers have to nit-pick everything to bluddy death three times over (at least). It's our density..er..destiny.

"But when ethics are brought up, I don't put much faith in ethics, because there is a form of ethics for everything. Hell, even Hitler had ethics. Who looks up to him?"

On the flip side, when the topic of someone's behaving in an ethical manner comes up, do you think of Hitler or do you think of that person in a somewhat more favorable light?

No, and that's not what other people think of either, people would say that business majors should take ethics in college. When I took it, all it was comprised of is definitions, business majors then can pick and choose which ethics best suits to their advantage, which btw, is a form of ethics in itself.

"business majors then can pick and choose which ethics best suits to their advantage, which btw, is a form of ethics in itself."

You're correct when you say it "is a form of ethics in itself", but the problem with this is that it isn't right/proper. It may be the way some people look at them, but it isn't right/proper. There are moral principles and principles of relationtional interaction that should guide human behavior regardless of whether we choose to adopt them or not. The need for honesty, respect, etc. are not arbitrary for you and I to choose. Without principles (timeless truths) in place it is every man for himself and anarchy. There are many examples, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Enron, etc. that show what happens when people think they can make the rules of operation. Mankind in his fallen state will gravitate to selfish, unethical decisions where he alone benefits, to the calamity of all others.

I will choose to do business (as much as possible) with people who have chosen the high road of ethics and morality.

The high road of ethics, and doing business with them, i'm glad you left some wiggle room. if you look at history of business, it can be hard cruel look, especially when you look at how they dealt with situations to survive and grow.

Sears and Roebuck had an reputation of being a solid company, until you look at what they did to competition such as small mom and pop.

It like I said before, you don't have to play the game, just know or be aware of how the game is played. So you would not become taken advantage of.

Ethics is doing the right things, morally.

Proper ethics isn't necessarily doing things that will benefit others in a business environment. How businesses operate is not static. They have to constantly change and adapt in order to survive. If they won't or don't change they won't survive. We are in the Information Age and much of how business used to operate is now archaic and ineffective. That doesn't mean they change their ethics, it means they change their methods of business.

We always have a choice in where our money is spent and I would much rather do business with mom and pop businesses than with a big chain store or franchise but sometimes they can't provide the needed products or services that I need so I will go where necessary. If I know someone is a cheat or unethical, I won't go there regardless of how bad I need their product. I'll wait till I can get the product from a reputable individual.

Operating with honesty and integrity never goes out of style. "Method's are many, principles are few, methods may change, principles never do."

There are some recent examples of businesses standing up for proper moral principles/ethics, and they benfitted because people honored their stand. Chick-Fil-A (traditional defintion of a family) and Hobby Lobby (refusing to provide abortifacients as part of their health plan, eventhough being mandated by obummercare). These companies have seen great support from the public for having stood on moral principles.

Agreed

You are confusing religious beliefs/dogma with your concept of morals. The actions of the two ultra conservative businesses have nothing to do with moral principals.

"You are confusing religious beliefs/dogma with your concept of morals. The actions of the two ultra conservative businesses have nothing to do with moral principals.

Where do you think principles come from? They certainly don't come from a man's idea of what is right and wrong. Just look at our society and see the degradation of morals and standards with their subsequent results. We are being told more and more to let each person decide on their own what is right and wrong. The results of teen pregnancy, suicide, divorce, crime, drug use, STD's, etc. speak for themselves. How's that working for us? Are we improving as a society?

Maybe your defintion of morals is different than what I'm thinking; the standard of right or wrong conduct in action and character. If that is the case, defintion of marriage and the killing of the unborn certainly apply as a moral decision.

People never get themselves in trouble by adhering to high moral character and their subsequent decisions and actions. The opposite is not the case though.

Moral Relativism is never a good solution.

Defining a marriage unit as one man and one woman, has what to do with morals?

Refusing to provide mandated health care for your employees has what to do with morals? That decision should have been left up to the affected individuals, not corporate.

Principals come from learning that treating others as you would like to be treated works most of the time.

Never mind, this is way off topic, sorry.

"Defining a marriage unit as one man and one woman, has what to do with morals?"

Where do "morals" come from? They aren't from you or me and are not arbitrary based on your opinion or mine. They are ordained for us to live by and they don't enslave us, they help us to live freely. There are no bad consequence to good morals, but plenty of bad consequence to bad or absent morals. Ever heard of court judgements/jail, HIV/AIDS, STD's? There aren't any in a monogomous relationship where both the man and the woman have been committed to sexual purity before marriage. That is freedom. There are standards to live by that make life a joy and a relationship between a man and a woman that consumates in marriage is one of them. You can't perpetuate mankind any other way.

The leadership of a company has every right to support or not support the principles it sees as having value. Not providing/paying for death-inducing drugs to kill a little baby is certainly a moral judgement and they have every right to choose not to participate in that dispicable act of taking a life. Would you like to be forced to participate in the execution of a murderer (I am for Capital Punishment by the way) if that was mandated? Of course not. It's not your job, it is the job of the judicial system. There are many businessmen and organizations who are being forced to take part in the same type of immoral activity by providing drugs that do the same thing. You are correct that a person can decide on their own. They also have to face the consequences of said decisions, here and eternally.

OK,

You have your views and I have mine.

It seems to me that both of the organizations you cite are forcing their personal religious beliefs on their employees, regardless of the employee's thoughts and beliefs. What's moral about that?

Or do you advocate just firing anybody who doesn't subscribe to the religious beliefs of management?

No one is advocating firing people for having a viewpoint different from those who determine the direction of a corporation or started a business. Those 2 particular organizations probably have homos working for them or people who don't have the same view of the value of life and have had abortions or don't see anything wrong with it. Neither of these companies have a litmus test of their Biblical beliefs before being hired.

Possibly you're forgetting that one of the values of business ownership is to be in more control of what happens ethically and financially, rather than working for someone else who dictates what happens. If the corporation or business is operating properly, what business is it of government to come in and dictate that they should be providing a certain level of healthcare?

It isn't the role of government to dictate to a business what they should pay for in regard to healthcare anyway.

You have certain standards that you stand for as well. Would you idly stand by and let your views and standards be trampled by some beauracrat? Probably not. Why should Hobby Lobby stand by and let theirs?

"Do you realize that soda in the can or bottle accounts for only about 10% of the total cost retail price, if that."

After reading first I bristled a little bit, then was hit by an epiphany and got sidetracked from the remark I intended to leave: Now, if soda is only about 10%... what about beer? Now THERE is something to get MY tail in a big knot. Those beer guys making money off of me? Well, no more mister! I'm gonna start brewing my own. All I need is a license, a brew vat, a source of hops, a way to get the hops from there to here, an uninterrupted certified water source, some barley and some yeast. Oh, some bottles and a way to wash them... and store the fulls as well as the empties... a bottle capper... Whew, there seems to be quite a bit of dinkin' around here, maybe a buck a beer isn't so bad.

To compare the dead cost of raw ingredients against the fair market value of any finished product is meaningless. How about gasoline? The raw ingredient is FREE!

The rest goes toward packaging, warehousing, transportation, advertising, wages, cost of doing business, taxes, etc.You may call it strategy, I call it deception.

I don't think its deception, remove any one of the above, and you'd be looking either at an empty shelf or its competition that replaced its shelf space using the same criteria you posted.

That is business.

Actually, I have wondered why they are still 8'-0". By the time you account for the top and bottom plates, an 8'x4' plywood panel is too narrow and a narrower fit-up piece is required.

I like a tall ceiling.

That's why framing studs are 92 5/8 inches long and not 96 inches.

Just to clarify; when a framer is building an 8' wall the studs are 92 5/8" and then with the bottom plate, the top plate and the tie plate the overall height is 96 5/8". That gives you room for the 8' sheetrock or paneling with a 5/8" gap at the bottom. This allows for a bit of space just in case something isn't level or plumb.

The same thing holds true for 9' walls. The studs are 3" short of 108 5/8". You then have either 9' sheetrock (standing vertical) or 54" sheetrock (laying horizontal).

This is one of those things where the market has driven the manufacturer to respond with the needed materials to more easily complete construction.

You might also end up with 1/2" gap at the bottom when using 5/8" drywall for the ceiling.

Packaging. It's the artistic hand the free market uses to steal your wallet while the invisible hand slaps you up side your head.

I've spent more money on more than one woman whose eyes weren't really green or tits weren't really real than I have on ice cream with 3 bucks worth of extra air whipped into it.

The ice cream is a better value.

OH, it is poor consumer who is ripped every where around the world. Same story here in India too. Corporates are searching new ways to cheat consumers so as to maintain their profits as inputs cost has gone up due to high cost of energy,materials, and wages.

Just curious, but are your goods in India also mostly made in China, like ours here in the U.S.?