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Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 473
Good Answers: 13

I Thought This Was Obvious!

02/03/2013 7:16 PM

Sometimes when you think something is a no brainer...you're left astounded by what some people come up with. I thought this particular design problem (if you even want to call it that!) was literally a 5 sec decision making process. It turns out that not everyone sees it right away. So...I thought I'd post it and see how you guys do.

A simple ladder frame dolly will support a 30000 lbs load (container). Ladder frame is square hollow structural section. The container's center of gravity is somewhere within a 12" dia circle centered on the frame. The frame will be towed (very low speed approx 2 mph) over uneven pavement on a regular basis. Customer wants standard non-spring loaded swivelling casters. The casters can operate safely at the manufacturers stated max working load capacity (whatever that may be)

Question: What is the minimum manufacturer's stated working load capacity required for these casters?...and why?

Oh, and for those wearing smarty pants...yes I know there's nothing to support the load where the arrow is pointing. The load is a container and sits on on the perimeter framing. The question is about caster sizing and nothing to do with the frame. If you need more (which I seriously hope you don't !!), please don't hesitate to ask.

Please get the right answer...I beg you!

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Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: City of Light
Posts: 3943
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#199
In reply to #195
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Re: I Thought This Was Obvious!

02/09/2013 8:55 AM

Oh my!!!! Should you be VERY VERY frustrated for we did not accept you hypothetical and most probably unrealistic suggestion!

You insist so much on the fact that I can compute values that most probably you are not able to do the same.

Sorry but every one of us has some specific knowledge for sure I do not know a lot of thinks you do master and vice versa.

I respect your knowledge and am surprised that you despise mine.

Theory is condensed practice and mathematics and physics are tools to develop faster and safer a product.

Your comment for me falls flat as you will see at the end.

How ever although you insist so much on "reality" may I assume that you did not work in design and development. In this branch of engineering the base is a SPECIFICATION and the design is made according to it. Within the spec it is possible to take care of the stupid one who does not understand what is a limit.

But this has a limit if not no airplane would fly, no car would be driven and no one would have been on the moon !

First of all may I say that the question is for me a specification and I try to answer to it. And I like, since I can make such computations (you apparently could not), to give quantitative answer even if the value is an approximation (as I often mention in joint comments) it gives an indication about the trend and in engineering trends are very often even more important than absolute values.

Now you will be again frustrated since I took into consideration the request from yesterday and I made the computation for the 90° obstacle. Here are some results for following base parameters:

20' container/ 12" wheels stiff (not with polyurethane)/ Mass 1.45 E5 kg (I let you convert in slugs) and different velocities and obstacle heights.

As one sees I considered the situation when the load is ONLY on 3 points with the left wheel in the air (sorry but there are still 3 on ground ) as for the situation in which the static load is maximal. The mass was considered as uniform distributed in the container volume for sake of simplicity.

The curves are similar to previous set but values are different. Maximal value occurs at contact angle and a couple of conditions are to be considered. The tractor ground adherence has to be sufficient in order to accept without sliding the horizontal force which appears.Wheel compliance will reduce the angle of contact over force increase ad thus facilitate the rolling over since the force is proportional to the cosine of the angle at power 3.

Now to give you a short over view of what I have done during so many years that I will not mention the number. I worked in maintenance of civil engineering heavy machine as excavators, crawlers aso where you could not say that working conditions are easy. Then I worked in design for most of my life but not only in the conceptional domain since I was ALWAYS leading projects till maturity and even in after sales analysis. The different domains were related as well with heavy machinery as earth drilling, heavy lifting (4000 metric T for a capacity of 4800 T) but also in domain as hydraulic components (from cylinders to servo valves) from 1000 to 20000 psi (so that you not have to convert all values) and system development and lately in sensor technique. I am proud to say that I developed a temperature sensor with a time constant < 0.5 ms but as well force sensors from 1 N to 6000 N each and also 6 components sensors which are quite a special product.

So that your comment with respect to not having a PRACTICAL experience does not disturb me since it is wrong and as you know only truth disturbs.

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Commentator

Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 65
Good Answers: 4
#200
In reply to #199

Re: I Thought This Was Obvious!

02/09/2013 3:58 PM

Sorry for the naysayers about those of us who see the need to give answers based upon the numbers that come from real-world testing and experiments that tell us, pracitcally, what to expect in the real world scenarios.

The OP had a real world scenario, and it is surprising to those of us without the experience to know, what to expect in real world applications. Yours' and some of the others' analysis, for those who know how to study the data and graphs, give some valuable information that will be helpful for anyone in the future who has this kind of thing to do.

Thank you!

I like to shoot from the hip with answers, but only in areas that I have sufficient experience to have conficence that I won't make a fool of myself or others. I think that there is a reason some things are well advised to be left to the experts... and few of us should consider ourselves experts in many areas. The rest of the time we should have access to expert consultation, in forums like this.

I just wish it were easier to keep the riff-raff off the topic... It makes it difficult for someone looking for valuable, real world, practical consultation to sort the good answers from the _)($#$%^&*

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Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: City of Light
Posts: 3943
Good Answers: 183
#201
In reply to #200

Re: I Thought This Was Obvious!

02/10/2013 9:47 AM

Thank you for the kind appreciation, it is always a pleasure if a work can be of help.

May I mention an interesting aspect in loads handling. If you have a structure on which you bring a load till it is in touch and then let it free an over load will occur and this on is not small as following computation shows.

All structures are deformable more or less since infinite stiffness does not exist in the real world.

When you let the load free it is at rest but under the gravity action so that a G force will act upon the structure (let is have the stiffness "C") which is not yet under load. Under this force the structure deforms and the mass moves till a balance occurs. This is the case when the energy of the mass is equal to the one of the structure deformation. Let this stroke be "h" so that you have : G*h = C*h^2/2 thus h= 2*G/C ! This means that in this situation the maximal load on the structure is 2*G. Very few think about this dynamic effect and if structure do not collapse this is because the tress design level is very low with respect to the elastic limit of materials or the ultimate portance of the structure.

As it was said above safety is in the range of 4.

Once more a short computation gives a lot of information in order to avoid failures.

But the question was not to design a dolly it was limited only to the load distribution when the container is already on it.

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Active Contributor

Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 16
#198

Re: I Thought This Was Obvious!

02/08/2013 9:07 PM

and back to the real world....and hats off to anybody who designed their first caster frame and then replace all the wheels a month or so later - you know who you are!

I found a 20k# caster at castercitydotcom (really such name).

The great thing is the note at the end

You should never select on the basis of load capacity alone. Capacity ratings do not take into account the effort required to manually move a load. Capacity ratings are based on manual operation under ideal conditions. If these casters are going to be moved by mechanically powered equipment, consult us for a reduced capacity rating based on your application. If a human being has to move the weight, select the largest practical wheel diameter.

If a caster failure occurs it is almost always because of misuse or abuse. It has been very rare that a product failed because of faulty material or poor workmanship. The following are examples of things that we do NOT want you to do:

1. Dragging the wheel sideways.

2. Shock or Impact caused by dropping the load instead of setting it down on the castered equipment.

3. Improper Installation such as:

A. Rigid casters not installed parallel to one another.

B. Swivel casters not installed parallel to the floor.

C. Using less than 4 bolts to attach the mounting plate.

D. Distortion of the swivel bearing when attaching the mounting plate due to welding improperly.

4. Exceeding the rated capacity of the wheel or caster.

5. Exceeding a rolling speed of 3 MPH.

6. The build up of heat caused by continuous operation causing tire separation.

Ok back to my 5 sec vote: 15k# per wheel target *1.5 and we get 22k#, I would pass on the the 20k# units unless I could not find a 25K# job although I would be even more happy with a 30K# unit. And then if I had time I would call and say, "what happens at 5mph!"

Don't forget this was supposed to be a 5 sec decision.

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