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A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 11:21 AM

I have a scientific question for you guys. If you swing a steel chain fast enough in circles can you then deflect a bullet.I have tried google this but i cannot find insacly the answer for this.
If a person shoot from his gun at you, say from 50 meters, say 50 cal. And you would be able to swing very fast,and you could swing a 1 meter long steel chain fast enough in circles, can you deflect a bullet.
I promise this is not a homework, i have been thinking about this for sometime now, and i really need an answer please...
But then is another question, how fast would you need to swing the chain for deflection...

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#1

Re: A scientific question for you guys...

07/27/2013 11:30 AM

The muzzle energy of a 50 cal rifle is 11,091 foot pounds.

I'd say that the chain would rip off your fingers as it left your grasp.

Oh, the bullet would be deflected, not stopped.

DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!!!!!!!!!!

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#2
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Re: A scientific question for you guys...

07/27/2013 12:06 PM

hehehe, let's just think of this as a theoretical question, and instead of a human swinging the chain there could be a electric motor. and the caliber could be less...

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#3
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Re: A scientific question for you guys...

07/27/2013 12:14 PM

Take a look at muzzle energy figures for various calibers.

Bullet weight is a factor too.

I can see no good coming from this.

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#71
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Re: A scientific question for you guys...

07/29/2013 5:34 PM

Come on Lyn, look on the bright side there is a strong possibility of a Darwin Award here.

BAB

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#84
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Re: A scientific question for you guys...

07/30/2013 9:09 AM

I concur. This is probably the #1 contender for this year's Darwin Award.

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#37
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Re: A scientific question for you guys...

07/28/2013 10:57 AM

Stopping the bullet could also be made plausible with the correct collection of circumstances. A 50 cal bullet fired from a hastily, poorly packed black powder weapon hitting squarely the 1/4 opening between links of a hardened steel chain link used in an operating whirlwind style pumpkin chucker. It would be a very weird novel, crime scene or other story that would have to put these things all together.

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#38
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Re: A scientific question for you guys...

07/28/2013 12:23 PM

The "correct collection of circumstances" you seek will require a miracle.

50 meters is 164 feet. That's a far piece, even for an accurate rifle. All you "shooters" out there who think it's easy should try it some time. See if you can put 5 shots in a 1" circle at 50 yards. Then, tell me how good you are!

Mythbusters had difficulty hitting a target 10 feet away with a gun that was in a machine rest.

Let's just chunk punkins and shoot at them.

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#40
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Re: A scientific question for you guys...

07/28/2013 1:49 PM

Hi Lyn,

I did. Having used air rifles etc since I could walk, and small arms after the war.

(my uncle used to make me shoot at match sticks on a post almost out of sight!)

When I was called up for national service anyone could get an extra 2/6 a week - for being a marksman. (5 x .303 rounds in a 1" circle)

When my target was returned, there were 3 clips to be seen inside the edge of a 1 inch circle! (they used an old penny to check) yippeeee!

The corporal said, "I had cheated, by putting two rounds "over the top"!

Despite all my denials, and, offering to do it again, as many times that he liked, he refused to give it me, what a crook!

I lost all respect for them after that. 2/6 was a big increase on my pay of only 18 shillings a week - and I will never forgive them for that. It ment nothing to him to be fair with me. So they still owe me! 100 weeks x 2/6 + 50 years interest! Such is life.

(but I KNOW the truth, I was a crack shot then.) however, if we had gone to war....
as a marksman I would likely have been sent up a tree, a sitting duck for the enemy.

jt.

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they asked if I had any firearms with me.
I said, "Well, what do you need?"

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#41
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Re: A scientific question for you guys...

07/28/2013 1:58 PM

I don't doubt you. It can be done. Too bad your weren't given your due.

I got my kite out of a tree by shooting the string from 40 feet away, once. Not on the first shot, either. Bullets probably cost more than the kite, but I couldn't get another kit.

.22 ammo was cheap then.

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#46
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Re: A scientific question for you guys...

07/28/2013 8:37 PM

I didn't know about that 2/6 or I might have tried harder, I just wanted to get it done and get away from those noisy things. I got screwed over my trade. I had an Ordinary National Certificate in Mechanical when I went in and that qualified me for an A1 trade, The training for my army job was B4 draughtsman with specialist training on air photographic intelligence. I couldn't get the old man to try for me where my pal in training got his. It was worth 21 bob a week too. I hated the Bren and passed it with the help of two NCOs supplementing my target shooting with their 303s. I couldn't get on with a gun that tries to walk away from you.

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#42
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Re: A scientific question for you guys...

07/28/2013 4:07 PM

Ha! You have met your match!!! :)

My girlfriend did that on her first day at the range with a .22 Anschutz bolt action rifle - iron sights (scopes are for little girls and boys).

We started at 50 yards, but after the first two sets she complained it was too easy and made move the targets to about 75 yards. Things got a little harder, but she was still plugging in there.

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#43
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Re: A scientific question for you guys...

07/28/2013 5:48 PM

Don't ever make her mad!

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#44
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Re: A scientific question for you guys...

07/28/2013 7:20 PM

I only pour joy into her heart.

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#115
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Re: A scientific question for you guys...

08/02/2013 1:31 PM

I routinely shoot the bulls eye out of my targets with a .308 at 130 yards.

A grouping inside one inch at 50 yards is nothing.

At 50 yards, I can do it with a .22.

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#4

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 12:27 PM

The muzzle velocity of a 50 cal rifle can be as high as 990 meters/sec = 99,000 cm/sec. So the bullet will travel 1 cm in 1/99,000 ths of a second. I'm guessing you'd want the chain to be spinning fast enough so that the bullet doesn't travel more than 1 cm between rotations of the chain. So that means the chain would have to spin at about 99,000 revolutions per second, or 5,940,000 rpm. I think the chain would fly apart at those speeds.

Let's say the chain is attached to a motor so that there are two lengths of chain extending outward from the hub, so that it is roughly balanced. In that case the rpms could be cut in half. -- But still too fast.

This sounds like a challenge for the 'Mythbusters'. Kids, don't try this at home.

(edited post)

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#7
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 1:10 PM

thank you, i have send this question to mythbusters but no reply.But actually i have think of the chain as a cross on a disk. so you have a 4 arms. maybe even with a ballast or something heavy on the end to maximise the outward pull. The thing is i am science nerd, but amateur. And i have bin thinking like how can a spaceship protect it self from a small debris in space, kinda like a shield. Or a soldier to protect himself from a bullets or IED. You know just wondering. Or even the riot police. There is an endless application for a sheelding...

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#22
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 8:03 PM

Spitfires had to have the fireing seqence sycronised so that they would not shoot their props off, or so I was told as a kid.

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#23
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 8:18 PM

The Spitfires of WWII have their machine guns in the wing of the aircraft. No interruption of bullets required. The Sopwith Camel and Spad aircraft of WWI had interrupters to prevent propeller damage.

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#27
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 9:01 PM

Thanks for info,Note,, No ECU"s in those days to melt down at the wrong time.

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#5

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 12:59 PM

Obviously, there are some really open ended questions here.

First, what is meant by deflect? Technically, any trajectory change is a deflection, even one so minute as to change the deflection .001" over the course of a mile.

Second. that presumes that the projectile actually hits the chain, which as other have demonstrated, is much more unlikely than likely.

So, if, by freak chance, the bullet strikes the chain the trajectory will be altered.

Much, much, more than likely it will strike you, in which case your body will defect the bullet.

Either way, it's a sad day for the bullet as it will never be the same.

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#6

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 1:10 PM

lots of variables so there isn't a definitive answer but.... a larger round typically travels 800-900 FPS. so in order to deflect that your timing would have to be awesome.

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#8

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 1:27 PM

Timing, angle of incidence,what size of chain,speed of swing ,lead of chain arc,it all comes down to if the chain is in line with the trajectory path at the right moment, you may live long enough to find out presuming it is a single bullet

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#9

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 1:50 PM

You might deflect it, the question is how much....I think a shield would be more effective...I once knew a guy that had a stop sign in his back yard that he had stolen for target practice, at least that was the story....one day he took a .38 and shot the sign, the bullet, much to his surprise, did not penetrate the sign but instead bounced off and struck him in the shoulder.....it was about 25' away and the trajectory was straight back....luckily for him the bullet didn't have enough velocity left to really do any damage....except to his pride.....

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#10
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 2:04 PM

nice story. He must have hit in the sign were the fasteners bracket and the steel pipe is behind...

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#11
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 2:20 PM

Muzzle energy of a .38 special is 200 foot pounds. Velocity about 800 fps.

Now, consider the frontal area of the bullet and you will see why it didn't penetrate the target.

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#25
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 8:44 PM

can you clarify please, "the front of the bullet,, does not compute...

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#26
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 8:53 PM

That's the area over which the impact force of the projectile is distributed.

It's pretty complex. A 38 caliber bullet leaves the barrel at .357" diameter. On impact, it expands to about .5 inches, if it is not a jacketed bullet. (Another subject)

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#50
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/29/2013 12:19 AM

At one time I had a log in my basement as a back stop for .22 bullets. I stopped using it when my bullets started bouncing off the accumulated lead and started hitting me! Too slow to do damage, but very disconcerting.

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#12

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 2:55 PM

Chain mail won't stop an arrow...
just sayin'
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#13

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 2:58 PM

Yes.

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#14
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 4:41 PM

Agreed, but only if the huge IF clause is satisfied, which may be practically impossible.

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#15
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 5:05 PM

I thought it was a very simple, straightforward question which deserved a simple, straightforward answer, which is YES. I have absolutely no doubt that if you swing a steel chain fast enough you can deflect a bullet. It is logical, and it does not defy the laws of physics.

It only gets complicated when you go beyond this and start looking at scale, and other issues: how big is the bullet, what is the mass of the bullet, how fast is the bullet moving, how big is the chain, how long is the chain, how fast is the chain rotating, what sort of deflection will occur with what sort of contact, has gun control been introduced, could the firer of the bullet be capable of hitting a barn-door from 10 feet, etc, etc?

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#16
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 6:22 PM

Yes.

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#17
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 6:39 PM

Thank you very much.

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#19
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 7:34 PM

If the chain must be swung so fast that its tensile strength is exceeded, and yet it stays together to hit the bullet, then a law of physics is violated.

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#24
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 8:26 PM

To avoid exceding the chains tensile characteristcs would it not be simpler to have the chain traveling slower,you may possibly be able to achieve longer sequences of protection,if you could have the chain long enough and the revs right you may even achieve 100 % protection if the chain encircled you continually.

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#18

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 7:04 PM

You obviously aren't being kept busy enough at work...

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#21
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 7:58 PM

if i were to busy at work, then i wouldn't been doing my job right...

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#130
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

08/10/2013 7:35 PM

and just what kind of a (boss) would not want to know that you don't think you're all that busy at work ?...

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#131
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

08/10/2013 7:54 PM

Are you gonna tell on me. hehehe. no it is just if i do my job right in the first place, then i don't really need to be at it all of the time...

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#20

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 7:46 PM

What we have here is another inexact question that reveals the assumptions of the one answering the question. If one disregards the magnitude of the probability then yes, it is possible for a swinging chain to deflect a 50 cal bullet shot only 50 meters away. Any sniper knows that the lowly wind must be considered for long range accuracy. One can even add enough not excluded assumptions to this 50 meter range scenario so that the normally unlikely probability becomes probable. (The 50 cal black powder Hawken rifle round first hits a meter of ballistic gel ...) On the other hand, if one prefers to make a spinning chain an impossible defense then any sniper could easily time their shot to avoid the twirling chain.

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#28

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 10:51 PM

The chain would not need to be spinning. If the bullet hit the chain, yes, it would be deflected. And so would the chain.

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#65
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/29/2013 1:34 PM

yes true, but i am looking at it similar as a baseball hitting a ball. The force of thrown ball is x amount of energy, but the sideways force is not so much when the bat hit the ball sidway...

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#29

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 11:05 PM

Instead of chain,consider a multi-bladed fan.

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#30
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/27/2013 11:15 PM

Borrowing from the words of Carlos Castaneda, I would consider simply not being there.

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#78
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/29/2013 10:37 PM

If bullet canpierce through blade of fan/blower,try steel rail rotated by motor.

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#31

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/28/2013 3:46 AM

The simple answer to the OP's question, within the implied parameters, is NO.

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#36
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/28/2013 10:33 AM

Actually, the simple answer to the OP's question, within the implied parameters, is YES.

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#32

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/28/2013 7:47 AM

For a "practical" deflection could I suggest a cone? Not a chain.

The cone (to reduce inpact with max. deflection) would have a slit/slot in it and,
the speed of its revolution would provide an "uninterrupted" view.
(working like a film shutter in a movie film)

The cone could revolve relatively slowly approx. 100 rpm which could fool the "eye"
(the apparent view through the slit) and the huge area of the cone (compared to
the chain) provide the maximum area of deflection for the "bullet" or missile.

It could further prevent any calculation to sync. the missile by varying the cone
rotation speed. i.e. any speed say between 100 - 500 revs per min. could fool it.

Simply... pity the marksman trying to get their bullet through that small aperture!

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#33

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/28/2013 8:47 AM

Only using Hollywood physics.

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#34
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/28/2013 9:58 AM

Who you gonna call? MYTHBUSTERS!!!

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#35
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Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/28/2013 10:04 AM

A lots and lots of techs and science we have to day, we first saw in a Hollywood blockbuster years and years ago. Everything new starts with a thought...

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#39

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/28/2013 12:28 PM

Of course it will.
If the bullet hits the chain, it will deflect or deform to some extent unless the chain has zero mass...

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#45

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/28/2013 8:31 PM

Theoretically- YES, Practical- NO

You can dream it but it ain't gunna work. This is an example of one problem with modern theoretical scientific research, scientific Research, Development, engineering, manufacturing, marketing and implementation. Yes it is theoretically possible if all the numerous conditions are met at the same exact time. For numerous practical reasons stated in previous postings it will not work. For example What motor could rotate fast enough to accomplish this rotational speed of a decadillion (quadrillion squared) rpm, what chain would survive that rotational speed, would the chain survive the sound barrier, how would the chain be held onto the motor shaft (no welding material would be capable at those forces for example), who would be stupid enough to volunteer to do a dynamic balance of the motor, etc.

As you stated the question, as I interpreted it, it is theoretically possible (remember the guy who tried to fly with the wax wings?) but for too numerous, at least a quadrillion, reasons it can not be done with the systems and materials that are available now or in the foreseeable future.

My obvious negativity aside, I hope you the best in this pursuit.

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#47

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/28/2013 9:30 PM

As usual, many of you did not read the question properly.

I quote:-

"... And you would be able to swing very fast,and you could swing a 1 meter long steel chain fast enough in circles, can you deflect a bullet. " End of quote.

And the answer is, of course, if the bullet hit the chain, YES. And, if the bullet did not hit the chain NO.

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#49
In reply to #47

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/28/2013 11:08 PM

If the chain could be swung fast enough, it would hit the bullet no matter what.

So far I have neither seen nor done the relevant computation, which is elementary arithmetic, and thus too much like homework.

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#48

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/28/2013 10:25 PM

So theoretically it can be done but practically?

this is a better solution

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#51
In reply to #48

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/29/2013 12:31 AM

RE:48 'a better solution' I had Hungarian friends who had a solution to your 'better solution. It's called a Molotov Cocktsil.

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#55
In reply to #51

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/29/2013 3:42 AM

And the weapon race continues

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#52

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/29/2013 12:53 AM

if one revolution of the chain is faster than the bullet takes to cover the thickness of the chain, it will deflect every time.

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#53
In reply to #52

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/29/2013 12:58 AM

I'm not confident enough in that theory to be the one standing behind the chain and twirling it! Must be my arthritis.

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#54
In reply to #53

Re:

07/29/2013 1:22 AM

Notice to all contributors and readers of the forum: A Scientific Question for You Guys

A test team is being assembled for the purpose of investigating and verifying the theory of this forum. Volunteers are still needed! The following positions have been already filled:

Shooter

Shooter verifier

Guinness Book of Records representative

Scribe

Slow motion camera operator and assistant

Regular speed camera operator

Strobe light operator and assistant

Paramedic (2)

Ambulance Driver

Chain quality verifier

Janitor

Port-a-Potty operator

The following positions have not been filled and candidates are being considered. Please submit a resume, including next of kin, to management:

Chain twirler

Chain twirler verifier

If additional positions are required they will be filled on a first come basis.

The experiment will be conducted at Waynesburg, OH. This location was chosen for its convenient location, access to airports, overnight accommodations, and bars.

Date of experiment: TBD

Thank you,

Chain Experiment Staff

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#56
In reply to #54

Re:

07/29/2013 6:39 AM

Great news!

The chain has just been donated!

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#57
In reply to #56

Re:

07/29/2013 7:36 AM

Is this the right type of chain? Who spec'ed it? Would it not be a good idea to test several different chain types?

It might be a good idea also to recruit a number of chain twirlers just in case this could introduce variables (and to allow for wastage!)?

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#58
In reply to #57

Re:

07/29/2013 9:04 AM

Good point. I was thinking some 3D printed chain might be a second option.

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#74
In reply to #58

Re:

07/29/2013 7:26 PM

Do you mean 3D as in three dyes? If you would supply them I'm sure we could find some space on the chain or the gun for an advertisement from you.

I certainly hope you didn't mean 3D as in 3 dimensions. We hope that the chain will only be 2D, UP-Down and Left-Right as in rotational. Adding the third dimension of fore and aft could cause some minor injuries to the chain twirling personnel. We are not planning on any injuries more extensive than minor. They have been banned!

We still have some openings in our experimental staff. We can offer you the position of "Chain Twirler". For a few bucks on a wet hand we could probably arrange for you to be a "Sergeant Chain Twirler" instead of the normal "Private Chain Twirler". Unmarked bills please!

Thank you for your contribution.

Twirling Management Staff

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#75
In reply to #74

Re:

07/29/2013 7:43 PM

Thanks for the offer of that position, but I would much rather chair the "See, I told You So" committee.

I will forward my cynic resume for your review.

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#94
In reply to #58

Re:

07/30/2013 5:55 PM

I suspect that the ultimate chain for this purpose would be one that was made from Kris's recycled cast iron bath tub.

It already has a proven ability to deflect many minds for a prolonged period of time so why not try it out on deflecting bullets.

BAB

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#62
In reply to #57

Re:

07/29/2013 12:35 PM

Your question is certainly a very valid one. We will contact the OP to obtain further specs.

Since it increases the number of variables, concerning the chain, we will need more chain twirlers. This would be a minimum of two per each test (twirler and twirler assistant). In order not to add any further delays in the experiment and since you have suggested the change (who better to participate in this phase of the experiment?), we are formally asking you to volunteer for one of these open positions?

Since you indicate you reside on the right side of the pond, we are willing to provide a one-way ticket to the left side. Arrangements will be made for you to travel from Britain to Waynesburg, OH via New York, Cleveland and Akron-Canton. The specifics concerning your return flight will be discussed with your potential next of kin at the time of your preparations for the flight. Note- all reimbursements are contingent upon your successful completion of the tasks assigned to you.

Looking forward to your participation,

Chain Test Management

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#72
In reply to #62

Re:

07/29/2013 5:54 PM

It really pains me (in fact I am totally gutted) that I have to decline your generous offer as I am off on holiday tomorrow, and I assume that you'll have the testing completed before I get back on the 10th August.

By the way, is that a typo error? Shouldn't it read 'right side...wrong side' rather than 'right side...left side'? (Of the pond, that is).

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#73
In reply to #72

Re:

07/29/2013 7:08 PM

Please don't assume anything. Perhaps some arrangement could be made to delay the experiment till after you return from holiday, You can rest assured that we don't want to deprive you of the opportunity to participate. We all appreciate a good holiday. We do have a couple of vacancies for "chain twirlers".

Some of my ancestors boarded the ship "Welcome" and left Bristol, England, in 1682 AD. With them was William Penn, the leader of the Quaker sect. They arrived in what became the USA.

I have also visited England in order to travel to two villages that are named after the predecessors of these people and another branch of my ancestors. Yea, you can call me half Limey, especially since my workshop is such a tip. With this I guess that either side could be "the right side" as you suggest.

Unfortunately, I was born and raised in the USA and lived here all my life. I also do not like that King George tried to repress my ancestors attempts to obtain more rights and not have to live in a tyranny.

In summation, I prefer to call the left side the right side and the right side the left side, of the pond of course! Somewhat similar to Bristol, PA, and Bristol, England. Which is the right Bristol?

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#82
In reply to #73

Re:

07/30/2013 6:25 AM

You are too kind. As soon as I get back I'll sign up as Major Chain Twirler (if I may take the liberty).

And now that we have settled the longitudinal right/left/right/wrong business, I'm afraid we now have to tackle it from a latitudinal perspective. I was born on the north side (or the right side!) of the 49th parallel. The very same King George that you dislike so much was responsible for many of my ancestors having to leave, in the late eighteenth century, what was becoming the USA, in order to settle in what was (one hundred years later) to become Canada. Whenever I approach North America, by sea or by air, Canada is always on the right side.

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#83
In reply to #82

Re:

07/30/2013 9:03 AM

Sounds like King George was a lot better at making enemies than making kingdoms, no?

My ancestors were all Germans (Low Country, Mennonite, traveled between Dutch-Land and Deutsche-Land, pretty much whenever one got tired of them, all that) so they had their own Monarchical Problems. But I've always found it enlightening to see just how many people "Good" King George managed to tick-off, before the people he ticked started TELLING him off!

Anyway, right/left/right/wrong/up/down notwithstanding, I'm glad to be in the Southern Half of the North American Continent, and glad to welcome you folks from UP THERE as neighbors. It sounds like we were none of us overjoyed with that cat (No offense, Del, not YOUR kind of cat. I'm showing my age and upbringing.), and most of us glad he retired.

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#85
In reply to #83

Re:

07/30/2013 12:32 PM

Yes, he was a bit of a war-mongerer, and at the same time as taking on those damn colonials in the War of Independence, he was also taking on the French, the Spanish and the Dutch (and probably others). But he was only taking over where his father, George II, had left off. These were troubled times in Europe, which is precisely why many of my ancestors headed for the Americas in the first place, and they were a mix of German, French, English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh.

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#89
In reply to #83

Re:

07/30/2013 2:03 PM

I'm glad to be in the Southern Half of the North American Continent,

N. Virginia is barely in the southern half of the U.S. Step across the state line and you become a yankee. Ron in S. Mississippi

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#90
In reply to #89

Re:

07/30/2013 2:48 PM

I've been told that, Ron, and being originally an Oregonian, transplanted to Northern California, before the US Navy put me here, I'm unimpressed by anything about the North vs. South thing, other than the manners of my Tennessee and West Virginia relatives (on my wife's side). THEY are what makes me glad to be a Southern American. But my reference to the Southern half was a freely given concession to CANADA being the Northern half of the North American CONTINENT. (Continent was deliberate, in both posts, this and the previous. Thanks).

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#95
In reply to #82

Re:

07/30/2013 11:58 PM

Holzfeller-

Thank you for refreshing my memory about the European conflicts during that time. I probably didn't understand Mrs. Elliot's teachings. Likewise I could have been sleeping, getting in trouble, playing hooky, smoking in the boy's room, flirting with a certain young lady, in detention or participating in some other distraction. The thing I don't understand is how can Canada be considered the right side if it isn't even a side? If we presume that to the left is the right side (as in USA which to me is the proper terminology), the right is the left side (Europe and all that jazz), how can Canada be a side if all sides (2) are taken? Is it called the up side with South America being the down side? Although I a not wordily in some peoples (although I do know how to spin a globe) opinion I do know what is the left (as in Port) and what is the right (Starboard). I doubt that Canada is the tops because us revolutionaries (as in USA) know that the USA is the tops! I do not agree with your statement that Canada has always been the right side when you flew to it because I have flown across the US from the west coast and Canada was the left side. Flying from Mississippi to Chicago Canada was the top and not the right side. How can Canada be the right side if all of us on this side of the pond see it as the left side, the top side, the bottom side if flying from Detroit to Mississippi, and the other left side? You have got me very confused or you are very confused. I really doubt it is me. I know that on a boat the top side is above the cabin in a boat, bottom side is the keel side, port is the left side and the opposite side is the starboard side.

Why don't we adapt the concept that to the left is the is the port, as in wine, the other side is the starboard as in a board used to see the stars, halfway between them up towards the sun is the top and down is towards the feet (unless you are doing hand-stands at which it would be the top) is the feet side. It is so simple, you have the wine side, the star side, sunny side and the foot side. So simple that even I can comprehend this system. But if you are in a rocket going into space the bottom side would be the down side, any where could be the right side such as also for the left side, and the top side would be the "out of here" side. Comprende?

OK, now that I know this I can get on with post #86. Let me read and understand it first!

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#67
In reply to #54

Re:

07/29/2013 1:47 PM

Thanks i LOVE IT. can i patent it. At Least i will be credited for the device. hehehehehehe...

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#79
In reply to #67

Re:

07/29/2013 11:14 PM

Guds777-

I would be our pleasure to include you in our experimental endeavor. Your suggestion of pursuing a patent is an excellent idea. I could even arrange for my brother-in-law, the lawyer, to assist you in the pursuit of the patent. Of course this patent, as is customary in all matters such as this, will be assigned to the corporation for all benefits. In recognition of your obtaining such an honorable "professional plaque of recognition" you will be presented with the sum of $1.00 as is customary with such any assignment to large corporations. As you know, we are not yet as large as Microsoft or GM, so we will offer you $5.00 if we can have the stamp from the envelope that contained the patent for our lobby display.

You can certainly be credited for the device but only if you have an acceptable credit rating as determined by the big three credit rating firms. If approved, you can select either a debit or credit card with your picture, your children's picture, your wife's picture or your girl friend's picture on it. We can also arrange to have all of them in the picture if you can figure a good enough lie to tell the wife who the good looking babe is in the picture. Should this not meet your qualifications a simple plain card would be made available for free (S + H is extra).

Since this is a one time experiment you would be required to be present during the experiment. We have surveyed Waynesburg and have secured an excellent location for this experiment to be conducted. It will be held just off of rt. 183 and rt. 44 adjacent to the confluence of the "Big Sandy" and the "Little Sandy", time tbd. For a reasonably small contribution we offer you the opportunity to have a keg of beer with a "contributed by- " plaque affixed to it, made available to all your fans and all others. Upon the depletion of this you will be offered the honor of supplying the next keg. After three contributed kegs you will be given the plaque during the finale ceremony. Arrangements will be made for you to make a small donation to the local "Gin Mills" and "Road Houses" in your name so they don't take any retaliatory actions for their loss of business.

How could anyone not take advantage of this possibly once in a lifetime opportunity. It certainly is a wonderful opportunity to obtain a patent. Your neighbors will be jealous of you since you have reached the same pinnacle of success as Alexander Graham Bell, Bill Gates, NASA, Enrico Fermi, Marconi and Faraday. Just think how jealous the guys at the local watering holes will be.

If you choose to. arrangement can be made for you to assume the position of Chain Twirler. This way you can obtain first hand knowledge for your patent.

Thank you in advance for your assured acceptance of this position and opportunity for a patent.

Yours truly,

Experimental Experiment Board of Directors

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#92
In reply to #54

Re:

07/30/2013 3:46 PM

If you get any volunteers for those latter positions, they obviously are from Tennessee, and we will have to posthumously award the Darwin to those two fellows.

If we are talking deflection of a projectile, why not forget the original scope of the post, and offer to have ballistic tiles attached to the chain(s), or even better why not have a projectile detector that triggers an gravitational catastrophe that lasts just long enough to totally decelerate the round? It is about as fantastic.

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#66
In reply to #53

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/29/2013 1:42 PM

You can have a electric motor. dremel 25,000 rev/min.

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#59

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/29/2013 9:46 AM

Try it. Post back on the results! (if you can)

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#60

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/29/2013 10:18 AM

Yes...Swinging any chain, at any speed, will at the least create some minor local air turbulence which will defect the passing bullet a most minuscule amount. However, I believe what was being asked by the OP, was if it would be possible to swing a normal chain at a do-able speed to be able to consistently protect yourself from a bullet. To this the answer is a resounding NO.

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#61
In reply to #60

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/29/2013 11:00 AM

Excellent answer. To be doable it must go further than the theoretical stage. (post #45)

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#68
In reply to #60

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/29/2013 2:04 PM

Yes indeed, but actually the bullet was just an example, a fast flying debris in outer space was just as much in the picture, but wen doing science you want known variables to get out some picture of the outcome. And it seems to me this is not simple question with an simple answer, but that is a good thing this mean there is maybe something i or someone else can use on this matter...

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#88
In reply to #68

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/30/2013 1:33 PM

who rated my answer as off topic, it is right on the topic. i am sad. I want to remind all of you good folks here, there is no wrong question in science, only bad attitude towards less educated people than yourself...

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#63

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/29/2013 1:27 PM

The whole idea as I see it is to create an invisible wall that will deflect a bullet that is independent of the speed and mass of the bullet, fired at any random time. I believe that a chain spun at a high enough speed would always make contact with a bullet. The amount of deflection would be a non-determinant. Under the above senario, certain assumptions would be necessary. The chain cannot fail due to metal stress. A counterweight would need to be used to counteract the centrifical force; assuming a motor existed that could reach such speeds.

Instead of a bullet and chain senario, consider a laser beam projected through a clear spinning disk with a single line scribed from the center to the rim. I think we would be gettng into quantum mechanics here.

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#69
In reply to #63

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/29/2013 2:20 PM

yes, but the original think was not to have to use a complex set up or expensive and/or frail components. Rugged and simple is the key word here. The same material is used in snow chain and in recycling shredders.

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#64

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/29/2013 1:31 PM

Define chain, bullet, and deflect. For example, this chain with a "swing velocity" of zero will cause most bullets from the most commonly available firearms to change path of flight :

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#70
In reply to #64

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/29/2013 2:48 PM

Reward54:

Thank you very much for your suggestion. It appears to be beyond the capabilities of any of the potential chain twirlers that have submitted their resumes. I personally think it is worth a try but other members of the committee say that there isn't any machinery that could rotate your chain, we have no chain fall or come-a-long capable of lifting a representative sample (I said hire a fork lift), the potential for dropping it on someone's foot (liability insurance and that kind of nuisances), finding a shackle big enough to secure it to the motor, a tip big enough to cut it with our presto lite torch, wide vision #5 glasses for the cutter with the torch, etc. etc. etc. If you would like to contribute a section of the chain in the photograph to the committee it will be accepted. Please ship it to S & M Metal Experts and Recycling, Main St, Waynesburg, OH. Sorry, No COD's and must be freight prepaid.

For a substantial contribution, the beer, we could arrange for a "minor league" test of the chain. You will have to provide: a chain twirler, a backup chain twirler, a backup backup chain twirler, all rigging gear, a suitable fork lift or 200 ton crawler crane with a 50' luffing jib (provide you own operator, backup operator, oiler and soft surface pads). Please note- You, your crew and equipment will not be permitted on the test site unless you bring sufficient ice cold beer for all staff, observers, engineers and technicians and guests for a period of two weeks for this 3 day event. A large supply of aspirin would also be appreciated.

Please complete the enclosed application (with next of kin indicated) and return no later than 2 days from today. Your participation will be appreciated by all experimenters and observers.

The Chain Test Committee

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#81
In reply to #70

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/30/2013 5:13 AM

When can we expect tender options to be advertised and where ?

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#91
In reply to #81

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/30/2013 3:41 PM

Maurie:

Thank you for your response concerning the sharing of our financial success in the near future. We expect the tender to be offered as soon as we get the steam engine back on the track, You know, just like the horse and the carriage, the tender can not go without the steam engine. Should this tender not be acceptable, we also have the options of a few others, 2,000gal of water and 5 tons of coal, 4,000 gal and 10 tons of coal and lastly 25 tons and 10,000 gallons. In order to prevent any hanky panky we will not be considering the super tender at this time. If the initial offering is beyond our initial expectations we may decide to couple it along with the other tender. After that we have to couple a few things together to make a train of financial statements to satisfy the SEC. You can rest assured that you will be one of the first that is notified. If you prefer to invest your money in the mean time, we are aware of several "organizations" in Brooklyn, NY, who will be able to provide considerably higher RIO than local banks and CD's. Same for the lower east side of Manhattan.

Initial offerings will be made in the same town of the experiment, Waynesburg, OH. The specific building is the "Railroad Café" located on Main St., adjacent to the Nickel Plate siding. We attempted to obtain a location within walking distance of the old PRR main tracks but found that they are now a "nature walkway park". If you plan to attend this significant activity please bring your "Ricin Umbrella" or "Brass Knuckles" with you. The delightful local residents are extremely interested in the agriculture of Castor Oil and the metal formulations of copper and zinc. As you tour the town you may note some of the spherical castings of the alloy of these elements, often referred to as "balls". The residents are so proud of them that they often wear them ornamentally as a matter of local and personal pride.

Notifications of the tender will be in the Business sections of the following newspapers: Waynesburg Press, Minerva Leader, Canton Repository, Zanesville Times Reporter, Times-Reporter, Carrollton Free Press Standard. If apparent demand warrants it, we may also obtain the services of the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

Thank you in advance for your inquiry, potential financial support and interest in the experiment.

The Experimental Experiment Financial and Janitorial Committee

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#93
In reply to #91

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/30/2013 5:45 PM

Great stuff Old Salt,,,,,Love Steam Engines

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#76

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/29/2013 9:22 PM

does it have to be one chain? multiple chains in a webbed configuration, could be more practical to keep the rotation speed down.

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#77
In reply to #76

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/29/2013 9:40 PM

i like your thinking style.

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#80

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/30/2013 1:31 AM

guds777, please tell me you're not preparing for an audition on America's Got Talent.

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#87
In reply to #80

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/30/2013 1:20 PM

No hahaha, i just have over stimulated imagination...

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#86

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/30/2013 1:17 PM

Well I've heard if you swing a dead cat in a graveyard at midnight, you can get rid of warts....if that helps....

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#104
In reply to #86

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

08/01/2013 10:42 AM

Wow, is that true? Even if not-that looks funny

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#96

Re: A Scientific Question for You Guys

07/31/2013 8:03 AM

After reading the various posts on this thread and determining that you feel this is something worth pursuing. I felt compelled to weigh in on this.

1. In answer to your original post you can deflect a bullet with a twirling chain and yes the more chains you include will increase the chances of intercepting the bullet and deflecting it. Yes, if you set the speed of rotation and include a chain thickness adeqate for the size of the bullet you can actually intercept 100% of the bullets and deflect them.

2 Practicality of such a device is suspect,

a. Power requirements to power the Motor to spin the chain. You will need stable and reliable power to ensure that the frequency remains constant.

b. Weight, between the power supply, chain, motor, and control unit the Hulk would have to wield the unit!

c. Where do the bullets deflect to? ( the person to your side, right or left depending on direction of rotation. or are you chucking them out into the crowd of onlookers.) I would not want to be within a mile of some dumb... spinning a chain at 50K rpm.

d. Movement, You realize that a spinning object resists a change in direction, due to centripetal force. (if you have ever held a bicycle tire spun it and tried to wobble it, you would certainly know this is a big problem). This would create mobility problems whether used for personnel or machinery protection.

e. Maintainance, how often is a chain going to break and fly a country mile hitting an innocent bystander. **When a bullet hits the chain it is deflected however the chain is deflected as well and the chain probably will be damaged as well. (This could be a one bullet wonder, so to speak)

g. coverage, This item would only protect from one direction you would need multiple units and even 5-8 units all sychronized and spinning simultaneously would leave gaps in the defense shield (**Note, if one chain was out of sync, see above, the resulting metalic ball of debris would make the enemies job easy. it would kill you!). Speaking of our freinds from the other side of the pond. during the Revolutionary War. When the troops lined up in single file and you had a line of people shooting in a straight line this might have worked. . . . well no maybe not

Things like this only work in the Movies, and a superhero may show up in the next X Men movie with this growing out of his arm.

If you do attempt this make sure you archive the event on video so we can submit it for a Darwin Award.

My advice wear Kevlar, ride in an armored vehicle and check out the following.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/antisniper-systems-finding-their-range-01437/

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