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Anonymous Poster #1

Deflategate

01/21/2015 9:16 AM

If the balls used in the afc championship were filled and tested indoors at 70 degrees then brought out to the field at 35 degrees would there be any measurable pressure drop? and how much

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#1

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 9:30 AM

It will be in the order of [35 minus absolute zero] divided by [70 minus absolute zero], not allowing for the specific heat at constant pressure and the specific heat of constant volume of the fluid inside them, nor any change in phase of the fluid as a result of the lower temperature and pressure, nor the elasticity and thickness of the materials containing it.

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#104
In reply to #1

Re: Deflategate

01/28/2015 7:43 PM

I'm thinking they put helium in, thinking the would go farther (debunked) and it diffused out like it does from party balloons.

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#105
In reply to #104

Re: Deflategate

01/29/2015 12:30 PM

But for crying out loud, wouldn't that make Brady sound like Donald Duck?

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#2

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 9:33 AM

Radio host this morning said that they should have used BallAgra on the soft footballs.

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#63
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Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 3:18 PM

Going around with the balls deflated could affect one's posture.

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#3

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 9:47 AM

This will be a marginal drop because the temperatures must use an absolute temperature scale like Kelvin or Rankine. My quick calculation puts this at a pressure drop to 275/294 times the original pressure or about 0.94 of the original pressure. The acceptable pressure is 12 ± 0.5 PSI. A nominal 12 PSI ball would then drop to 11.22 PSI. This would be just outside of the acceptable range but not the full 2 PSI less reported. Getting back to your question, it certainly would be a measurable drop.

Once again New England has been caught cheating in a football game. At least this time they cheated on a critical game. How many hands will be slapped this time?

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 10:01 AM

I also get near 0.94 of the original pressure. Actually my calculations yield 0.934.

But that was assuming constant volume. The football is elastic. As the pressure decreases (or increases) won't the volume also change?

P1*V1/T1 = P2*V2/T2

or

P2 = [V1*T2/(V2*T1)]*P1

The reduction in volume would oppose the lose of pressure due to the reduced temperature.

At any rate, the worst case would be assuming a constant volume as a decrease in volume would only increase the pressure.

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#6
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Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 10:09 AM

A constant volume is correct. The ball has a leather outer skin with a positively pressurized rubber bladder inside. The 12 PSI is a relative and not an absolute pressure value, too. This may very slightly reduce the anticipated pressure drop due to just a temperature drop.

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#8
In reply to #3

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 10:21 AM

I agree with your figure - about 6.5% drop (19.4/297= 0.065), but as JBT points out that's for a fixed volume.

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#65
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Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 4:37 PM

Digest of Rules Main

Ball

  1. The home club shall have 36 balls for outdoor games and 24 for indoor games available for testing with a pressure gauge by the referee two hours prior to the starting time of the game to meet with League requirements. Twelve (12) new footballs, sealed in a special box and shipped by the manufacturer, will be opened in the officials' locker room two hours prior to the starting time of the game. These balls are to be specially marked with the letter "k" and used exclusively for the kicking game.

That is not the only rule I found, and it dealt with supply and size specification and OEM of the balls. Where are you guys getting the other rules from?

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#66
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Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 5:15 PM

Per NFL rules, each team has 12 balls they use on offense. The home team is also required to provide 12 more balls for backup, and visitors can bring 12 backup balls of their own if they so choose. In addition to those balls, Wilson, the company that manufactures NFL footballs, ships eight new balls directly to the officials for a game. Those are the kicking balls used by both teams, and they're kept under the control of the referees.

Everything you need to know about the Patriots and ...

This was confirmed by a X-NFL official.

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#73
In reply to #3

Re: Deflategate

01/23/2015 8:45 AM

Interesting that both teams used the same footballs therefore logic dictates there was no unfair advantage to either team.

Softer footballs are easier to catch in cold weather but their flight distance during kicking events is shorter.

My team didn't make it so I do not care either way but I cannot see where New England had any advantage.

The referees are responsible for checking and maintaining all game balls to ensure neither team has an advantage.

Wouldn't they be the responsible party if there are any issues or concerns?

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#74
In reply to #73

Re: Deflategate

01/23/2015 8:50 AM

Both teams do not use the same footballs.

Each team is issued 12 balls for their use and 12 are used for kicking, for a total of 36 balls per game.

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#79
In reply to #74

Re: Deflategate

01/23/2015 12:46 PM

Thanks for the info.

I was not aware of each individual team being assigned and using separate footballs.

So who determines which team gets which 12 balls?

Are they marked/identified?

If the referees do not control the condition and distribution of balls, to me the system is flawed and very subject to corruption.

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#82
In reply to #79

Re: Deflategate

01/23/2015 1:56 PM

Ai I understand it, (per an interview with a retired NFL ref) the officials open the boxes, inspect and inflate the balls and put them in two bags of 12 each and then give?/deliver?/send them to a team ball person.

Digest of Rules Main

Ball

  1. The home club shall have 36 balls for outdoor games and 24 for indoor games available for testing with a pressure gauge by the referee two hours prior to the starting time of the game to meet with League requirements. Twelve (12) new footballs, sealed in a special box and shipped by the manufacturer, will be opened in the officials' locker room two hours prior to the starting time of the game. These balls are to be specially marked with the letter "k" and used exclusively for the kicking game.

Posted by James Stewart in #65.

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#84
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Re: Deflategate

01/24/2015 11:54 AM

Thanks for the quote, Lyn.

AFAICT maybe the pressure gauge as within its PM time to be calibrated again, but what if the calibration was in a standard lab at a standard temperature, then the gauge was transported in the cold, and was cold upon arrival to test the ball pressure? Or maybe even the balls were tested in an indoor area that was hotter than people suspected due to direct flow from a heating duct?

The thing is the sports world is anything but a controlled environment, and it is patently stupid to think otherwise, or even to make it into that. Hey, it is football, it is not a moon launch. Get over it Colts, you lost. Better luck next year.

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#85
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Re: Deflategate

01/24/2015 12:24 PM

Competitive edge is what they call cheating in auto racing.

It seems odd to me that if the officials were aware of the under inflation that they didn't just air the balls back up and give them a 20 yard penalty.

Go Red Raiders!

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#86
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Re: Deflategate

01/24/2015 12:30 PM

Red Raiders stock may be a bit low after the last two seasons, but I expect recruiting to improve over time, if the sports admin here will at least ride this out for a while, and let things work themselves out.

Go Red Raiders! Guns up!

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#102
In reply to #82

Re: Deflategate

01/26/2015 9:02 AM

And we're back to it being the referee's responsibility to make sure all of the balls meet requirements.

I noticed that an interview with various NFL ball handlers indicate the referees many times do not check the footballs with a gauge and instead just "squeeze" them.

All ball handlers interviewed indicated they sand, scuff, and do whatever their respective quarterback wants done to the balls to meet their requirements then they are delivered back to the referees for inspection.

More than one ball handler indicated that as long as the referees were happy and approved the balls condition there shouldn't be any problems or concerns.

The ball handler at the game in question stated he did not ever see any of the referees check any balls with a gauge but did observe them squeezing some of the balls.

It appears the referees opted for the easy way out and may not have performed their jobs correctly.

The NFL is again caught in a quandary as admitting the referees did not fulfill their job responsibilities and may not have been doing so for an extended period of time indicates there is not adequate control of rule enforcement and compliance in the NFL.

I personally think both teams should have to use the same balls therefore removing any and all chance of advantage.

Of course I must say that I am unsure whether I would favor getting my balls checked with a gauge or via the "squeeze method".

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#75
In reply to #73

Re: Deflategate

01/23/2015 9:26 AM

...but their flight distance during kicking events is shorter.

It's my understanding they don't use the same balls for kicking as they do for normal play.

...that both teams used the same footballs therefore

Both teams don't use the same balls. Each team uses their own balls when on offense.

... logic dictates there was no unfair advantage to either team.

It isn't a matter of whether one team had an advantage or not. I see it as two things:

  1. Playing by the rules
  2. Integrity of the game/league if they can't or don't enforce the rules
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#80
In reply to #75

Re: Deflategate

01/23/2015 12:57 PM

Thanks for the info.

I agree with playing by the rules and maintaining integrity no matter what sport it is.

I have always disagreed with referees allowing more violations of rules during playoffs using the excuse "Let them play."

To me it is either against the rules or it is not and the enforcement should be administered fairly and equally upon all.

In high school basketball the rule book clearly states that a defensive player has the right to retreat to avoid contact and injury and if the offensive player initiates contact with a retreating defensive player it is an offensive foul.

Despite the rule wording referees consistently call a defensive foul if the defensive player does not stand still and take the full contact initiated by the offensive player.

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#81
In reply to #80

Re: Deflategate

01/23/2015 1:00 PM

Well sir, what used to be pass interference plain and simple "contact with the receiver while the ball is in flight", is now this game of swatting, grabbing, tripping, etc. that I find somewhat more of a ghetto level type of sport than what this was originally intended to be. Funny how time changes the standards, eh?

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#87
In reply to #3

Re: Deflategate

01/24/2015 1:00 PM

Add to this the material and seam stretch deformation. Were the second set of measurements with the same gauge? Is there any air bleed in the process of the second set of measurements? It is amazing that none of the commentary in broadcast media approaches the problem with the slightest bit of physics included.

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#88
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Re: Deflategate

01/24/2015 1:14 PM

It is amazing that none of the commentary in broadcast media approaches the problem with the slightest bit of physics included. Doesn't surprise me at all. Most commentary is be ex-sport stars most of them went to college on a sports scholarship not academic scholarship. I don't expect them to know all that much about basic physics. The rest of the commentary is from general media who,again, went into their field because they probably didn't excel at math or physics. Besides, their main job is to sell the sensation not the truth.

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#89
In reply to #87

Re: Deflategate

01/24/2015 1:23 PM

They've been doing this for years.

"material and seam stretch deformation" would have been resolved long ago.

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#106
In reply to #3

Re: Deflategate

01/29/2015 4:51 PM

It seems less than certain that there was any conspiracy to attempt to gain some advantage of using a slightly floppy football. If the ball was initially inflated to regulation 11.6 psig and then pressure dropped to 10.9 psig.... don't you think there would be a lot of reports the ball was 2 psig underinflated? ' Supposed to be 12 but it was 10'

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#107
In reply to #106

Re: Deflategate

01/29/2015 5:52 PM

So the whole flap is over "round off error"? Wow!

Happy Superbowl, everyone.

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#108
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Re: Deflategate

01/29/2015 6:13 PM

Nope.

It's not that either.

It's just a load of hype.

But, the NFL, both teams, the networks, sponsors, and everyone who will make $$$$$ is loving it.

This will very likely add millions of viewers on Sunday to an already obscene number of couch potatoes glued to the screen.

There no way you can rent a car anywhere in Phoenix, or probably Arizona.

Super Bowl + Phoenix Open Golf Tournament this week mean big bucks for Arizona.

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#109
In reply to #108

Re: Deflategate

01/30/2015 9:17 AM

And now for a more "scientific" explanation from Design News, 1-29-15

Belichick's 'DeflateGate' Explanation Falls Flat on Technical Details

The ideal gas law, first stated in 1834, has suddenly become big news, all thanks to football.

The ideal gas law, first stated in 1834, has suddenly become big news.

The law, which describes a relationship between temperature and pressure, hit the national news scene recently after players in the NFL's AFC championship game between the New England Patriots and Indianapolis Colts noticed that the balls were, well, soft. Measurements ensued, fingers were pointed, and within days the nation was treated to the sight of Patriots coach Bill Belichick attempting to explain the relationship between temperature and pressure in a gaseous system. "The preparation of the ball caused the ball to be, I would say, artificially high in psi," he said during a press conference that was called to address the unexpected effects of the ideal gas law. "It reached its equilibrium at some point later on -- you know, an hour, two hours. That level (in psi) was below what was set in this climatic condition." (The game was played in New England.)

In a broad scientific sense, Belichick's fumbling explanation was, in fact, correct. According to the ideal gas law, a rise in temperature (assuming all other factors are equal) causes a rise in pressure. "The more the temperature goes up, the more the molecules fly around," Eric Nauman, professor of mechanical engineering at Purdue University, told Design News. "The faster they go, the harder they bang into each other, and the harder they bang into the walls of an air cylinder or a football. And when they push against the walls, the pressure goes up."

Motion control engineers know this phenomenon all too well. Ultra-precise positioning systems powered by air can be affected by temperature. The caveat, however, is that it must be a large temperature swing, they say. "If you set up a system with a positioning accuracy of hundredths of an inch in a 70 degree room, and then you deploy it in a -10 degree room, yes, you will definitely get different measurements," said Frank Langro, director of marketing and product management for Festo Corp., a manufacturer of pneumatic systems. Langro adds that NASA engineers face those temperature-related challenges all the time when deploying air-powered systems inside spacecraft.

But as Langro points out, the temperature swings must be vast. As would be expected, a small temperature swing causes a small change in pressure. That's why the claim that the balls lost between 1.5 psi and 2.0 psi as the result of a 20F temperature swing seems unlikely. "By my estimates, the ball should have gone from 12.5 psi to 12.1 psi, based on a 20 degree temperature change," Nauman told us.

Then there's the issue of time. Experts say that car tires lose three or four psi over the course of months -- from July to January, for example. The same holds true for basketballs and volleyballs -- they go flat after weeks, not hours, in a car trunk. "Some processes are fast and some are slow," Langro told us. "Temperature is a slow process."

The bottom line is that Belichick's reliance on the ideal gas law, while broadly correct, falls flat on the details. "It's too much pressure drop, too little time," Langro said. "That's where Bill Belichick needs to go back to school."

I still like Brady's explanation "I don't know anything about underinflated footballs". Very smart QB, if you are going to get sacked , pass it to someone else fast!

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#111
In reply to #109

Re: Deflategate

01/30/2015 10:40 AM

this whole deflategate game is once again pure BullMierd because the media can't tell its collective arse from a hole in the ground.

We aren't talking about 20 °F change here. The balls were allegedly inflated in a heated room at ~75 °F (23.9 °C). Conditions on the field were slightly above the freezing point, say 35 °F (1.7 °C). We ARE talking about an approximate change of 20 °C. Any high school science student, and most of the junior high school ones could figure this out, and it does not require a freaking NASA engineer for this. The Kelvin temperature is the temperature used in the calculations: (273.15+1.7)/(273.15+23.9)= 0.92527 (overdone on the precision) Thus if the initial ball pressure was 12 psig, then out on the field this pressure would change to 92.53% of that as soon as the balls get cold (it is not a particularly slow process as your article attempted to paint it), so that the ball ends up being 11.1 psig. There is one other factor that I have not seen anyone take into account. We have been considering gauge pressure, and that is the standard, but what happens if the absolute pressure changes a little bit due to changes in weather? The area near Patriots home turf is very near sea level, and this means outside absolute pressure is normal when it is ~760 mm Hg (29.92 "Hg), (14.696 psia). Foxboro MA, Jan. 18,2015, 09:00, conditions were as follows: 32 °F with 31.15 "Hg, while later at 16:00, 53 °F(daily high) with 29.93 "Hg (falling). If anything, I think the footballs would have been low in pressure earlier in the day due to weather conditions, with the temperature cold, and the barometric pressure slightly higher. Later on, as the temperature warmed up, and the barometric pressure dropped off slightly, the balls would have appeared to be nearer normal pressure.

The overall inflation pressure of the footballs did not change all that much. Rainy conditions would have gotten the pigskin wet, that might allow for some stretching of this material, thus making the ball feel more "spongy".

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#112
In reply to #109

Re: Deflategate

01/30/2015 2:16 PM

Over all the article has a decent point. However, I'd like to pick on the casualness to their language as they are representing science/engineering where precision is not trivial.

According to the ideal gas law, a rise in temperature (assuming all other factors are equal) causes a rise in pressure.

No, no no....if all other factors were equal that would include pressure too thus there would not be a rise in pressure. The value of the ideal gas law is to compare the different relationships between different parameters while keeping others constant. Not ALL OTHERS. So with the ideal gas law given as PV=nRT, then keeping V, n and R constant, we could look at the relationship between P and V. And the reality is, V may not be a constant (but very very small).

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#113
In reply to #112

Re: Deflategate

01/30/2015 4:41 PM

I can't claim any technical contribution to the article. I didn't write it, maybe I should have. I didn't write the ideal gas law, it sounds so political. I only wrote Old Salt's Law, "Any day on the green side of the grass is a great day". Very seldom touched a football during my shorter that I wanted it to be playing days. They always stuck me at tight end or defensive end.

Very impressed with your investigation of the technical end of the article. I'm sure the Colts and the Jets would appreciate you being their technical manager sleuth. Keep up the good work! I'm retired now so the only investigation work I do is checking my eye lids for pin holes.

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#110
In reply to #108

Re: Deflategate

01/30/2015 9:18 AM

Maybe this will be somewhat of a boost, but it will not make up for "allowing" Nevada to steal the Tesla Gigafactory.

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#5

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 10:04 AM

Of course, one could always measure it.

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#7

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 10:13 AM

Aaron Rodgers tries to get the balls over inflated above the requirements.

His reasoning is that he can grip the balls better.

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#46
In reply to #7

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 12:12 AM

Likewise some QB's like the ball to be slightly underinflated. They claim it makes it easier for them to use the laces to get a spiral on the ball when passing. What does Mr. Brady prefer?

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#9

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 10:43 AM
  1. If the temperature difference was a measurable factor, it should have effected both team's balls equally.
  2. the temperature, 35º F is hardly cold by January standards, where many games have been played in sub-zero conditions. Yet, I have never heard of this issue being brought up before.
  3. The whole controversy stinks of "sour grapes" by some commentators to disguise the plain fact that the entire Colts team played a terrible game that day.
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#25
In reply to #9

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 1:51 PM
  1. I believe (not sure) that both teams use the same set of 12 balls. Yes, the temperature would have affected the balls both teams use. However, if New England's play calling was predominately passing, relative to the Colts, then it could be a bigger advantage for them.
  2. The pressure reduction of 2 psi is not due to the temperature. The temperature only accounts for 6.6% reduction in pressure. The 2 psi amounts to a reduction of 16.7%.
  3. I've not heard anyone say the Colts would have even had a chance at winning the game had the balls been properly inflated. Perhaps there are some who have. Everyone I've heard mention it is in the context of the integrity of the game....the balls are supposed to be at a certain pressure, they were check an hour or two before the game and they somehow ended up 2 psi shy of the required pressure.
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#35
In reply to #25

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 5:16 PM

1. Each team has 12 new regulation balls issued to it 15 minutes before the game.

The opposing team noticed this when they intercepted a pass by the Pats. They gave the ball to their equipment people who reported up the chain of command to the NFL.

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#36
In reply to #35

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 5:17 PM

Thanks.

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#54
In reply to #35

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 12:15 PM

In association football and the two codes of rugby football both teams contest one ball for the duration of a match, allowing of course for a replacement in the rare event of damage. Can you explain to an uncomprehending Old Englander what you need the other 23 balls for?

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#56
In reply to #54

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 12:33 PM

"Not I", said the little red hen.

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#57
In reply to #54

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 2:06 PM

There is a freshly wiped and cleaned ball presented before each play. This is even done in Pop Warner football.

Why? I suppose that it could be argued that a clean ball is a happy ball. And there is a high possibility that the balls might become fouled with a foreign substance during play that would affect the QB's ability to pass accurately.

Baseball discards dozens of balls due to small blemishes every game. The blemishes might be used to advantage by the pitcher.

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#67
In reply to #57

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 5:57 PM

Thank you. I assume the next development will be a freshly wiped and cleaned player presented before each play ����

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#68
In reply to #67

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 6:13 PM

No, that would be golf.

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#61
In reply to #54

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 3:02 PM

I suspect that in addition to always starting each play with a freshly wiped ball it may be that having 23 balls might:

  • Allow each team to have balls for warming up the quarterbacks and kickers (or do the teams use their own personal balls for that?).
  • Keep the game moving so the teams are not waiting around for the only ball to be brought back
  • Allow for some balls to disappear into the stands as an enthusiastic (or pissed) play to launch one at the end of a play

My son plays little league base ball. At the beginning of each game the ump gives each team 3 new balls (I think it's 3). They are used during the game. Some foul balls are tossed back, others are never seen again. At the age range of his team (9-10) the game can be slow enough without having to wait on a single ball.

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#10

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 10:46 AM

I wonder if the pressure gages were calibrated. This too could cause some discrepancies.

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#11

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 11:23 AM

OOPS.

Wrong thread.

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#12

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 11:35 AM

After the many seasons of football if that was a factor then it would have been addressed. Balls are filled two hours before the game by the officials. How long would they have to be out side for the air to drop to ambient? So what could have started as a regulation fill may have ended under filled by the time the ref checked the balls at the end of the game.

IFL may be in need of a team if the Colts can't handle the cold.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 11:42 AM

At one point, Ray Guy because of his hang time, he was accused of filling the football with helium. (btw, this guy had beautiful mechanics when kicking).

Along the lines of helium and hang time, this theory was busted.

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 11:44 AM

A ball inflator needle is all that is needed.

An intercepted ball was deemed suspicious by the intercepting player.

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#18
In reply to #14

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 12:27 PM

I think the real question is (or should be) why the game officials did not notice the alleged under-inflated condition of the game ball(s) as they handle the ball in play more than any player does.

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 12:32 PM

I'd say the center and QB would handle them most.

I also think it would be natural for a player, who grasps the ball very tightly, to notice the difference more easily.

I'll bet the refs will be squeezing them from now on.

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#78
In reply to #19

Re: Deflategate

01/23/2015 11:41 AM

First of all, what goes on in the scrum after the play, stays in the scrum.

Second of all, do you really want an official squeezing your balls?

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#17
In reply to #12

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 12:23 PM

It has been addressed. There is a rule and protocol for game ball pressure levels. If none or significantly few of the game balls the Colts were using are properly inflated then New England has been caught cheating, again. If the Colts have a similar number of under inflated balls then I and others are prematurely jumping to the conclusion that New England cheated because they cheated earlier.

It does not matter if an under inflated ball actually helps a team or not. There is a rule about ball pressure and there appears to be a violation of this rule.

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#76
In reply to #17

Re: Deflategate

01/23/2015 10:24 AM

The Colts have balls? They sure seemed to be missing them on game day!

Besides that, I basically gave up on caring about NFL or the AFL after the big player strike some years back, that and the fact that the owner of the Dallas Cowboys is someone I detest. I spend way more time and interest watching College Football. It is a better game, less histrionics (most of the time), better sportsmanship (most of the time), and totally less whining about salary caps, and other pointless BS.

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#47
In reply to #12

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 2:16 AM

If the balls are filled by the officials and not given to the teams until 15 minutes before the game and all were 2# +/= uniformly low, when checked later, this suggests to me that the gauge used to check the pressure was defective. Either that or the filling official was 'defective'. I don't follow professional football, so maybe I'm talking through my hat, but unless those balls are held out of sight, it would be difficult to deflate them uniformly without both the inflation needle and a gauge to balance them. It would be a bit of a production, to say the least. Was the same gauge used at both times? If the inflating official was concentrating on getting them all uniformly inflated, he might not notice that the feel of the balls was off .

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#77
In reply to #47

Re: Deflategate

01/23/2015 11:35 AM

Does this mean we have inflation officially, or have official inflation? I think it is the latter.

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#15

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 12:14 PM

So 11 of the 12 balls were USED in the game. How likely is it that some air could be lost every time a 200+lb player (plus his opponents) land on it!?!? How often do they check balls AFTER a game to determine if the pressure is the same? Have they ever done this before?

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#16

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 12:18 PM

Ultimately, this will be traced to Dark Energy.

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#20
In reply to #16

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 12:47 PM

Outside of New England, the Patriots are considered the Evil Empire of the NFL. Any time they win it is because they use the dark side of the force. Bill Bellicheck is actually Darth Vader in disguise, hiding benieth a hoodey

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#31
In reply to #20

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 3:45 PM

Yes, there is a an Evil Empire slant to the Patriots. They, particularly Mr. Bellicheck earned it. They cheated to win a game during their "perfect" season against the lowly Jets that year.

To my surprise I found that each team gets their own referee approved twelve balls for the game. There is an additional twelve balls that both teams use for kicking. I'm not sure if these are just scoring kicks or change of possesion, too. This makes a total of 36 balls available for a normal game. The Colts did not play offense with these under inflated balls. If the Colts balls [snicker] also lost air then this is a "sour grapes" protest.

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#39
In reply to #31

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 7:45 PM

Well, you are from New York, the Evil Empire of Baseball. Of course you hate the Patriots, Just like I hate the Yankees. After all, I am from New England.

How did this discussion ever get started on an engineering forum?

Maybe we'll see Lyn at the Superbowl in Arizona

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#42
In reply to #39

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 10:32 PM

At one time I was a Yankee fan, then Thurman died.

The only NY team that I've rooted even halfheartedly for since Thurm are the wayward Jets. I am therefore very biased against Mr. Belichick. I've tempered my comments as best as I can while still presenting verifiable facts.

I heard on NPR today a supposition I have not heard elsewhere that supports the corrected faux pas concept instead of blatant cheating. The intercepted pass that led to finding out that 11 of 12 NE balls were under inflated happened prior to half time. Presumably the balls were found deficient during halftime and then properly inflated for the second half. In the second half the Patriots out scored the Colts 28-0. The ball pressure (if this scenario is true) then had little to no actual effect on the outcome of the game, regardless of any sinister or accidental root cause to the pressure drop.

IMHO The real root of the problem here is not Mr. Belichick, the Patriot organization or the temperature that the ball pressure is tested at. The problem is the apparent lack of integrity of Commissioner Goodell. The way he has handled recent events including going back to Spygate, I am not sure if even he believes in himself anymore.

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#43
In reply to #42

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 10:40 PM

I wasn't a Yankees fan, but I was very sad when Thurman "augured in". He was unique.

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#62
In reply to #31

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 3:17 PM

how's that saying fgoes,

'Once a Cheater, Always a Cheater"

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#50
In reply to #20

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 10:04 AM

I'm sorry, but here in Chicago, the consensus is that it's the Green Bay Packers who are the Evil Empire. How DARE they stand up as rivals to Da Bears, and how DARE they use the profits from their team to maintain Wisconsin's Highway system WITHOUT resorting to toll roads? What? why are you reminding me that the Illinois toll roads are all in the vicinity of Chicago, covering all the expedient trucking routes between Wisconsin and Indiana? Are you insinuating that the Illinois tollway is just there to suck money from legitimate interstate commerce? That's preposterous! It's also there to bleed the daily commuters who live or work in and around Chicago!

( Self-marking as OT for the self-refrential, self-degrading sarcasm. I don't even care about football one way or the other. )

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#21

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 12:52 PM
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#22
In reply to #21

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 1:22 PM

Toyota Camry measures and displays, continuously, the tyre pressure.

On a 70° -80°F day it reads 32-33 psi. Next morning, (40°) it reads 27 psi and the alert lamp is on.

I drive ten miles or so, and the pressure goes up.

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#23
In reply to #22

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 1:39 PM

driving heats the tire up

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 1:48 PM

Yup, and that is why you see the F1 cars doing those rolling zig-zags before the race starts.

It not only heats up the tires to get them up to pressure, but the tread to make it as sticky as it can get.

The brakes on an F1 car produce something 4 Gs of stopping force.

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#27
In reply to #23

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 2:00 PM

when it got below 0 degrees F in Wisconsin, back in November, my low tire pressure warning light went off as I was traveling for work.

First it was the front left. before I could stop at a gas station 2 other tires warning lights came on.

Interesting to note, it was only about 1-2 lb low when I checked them..... I thought that was pretty good.

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 2:06 PM
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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 2:25 PM

Improved TPMS Performance - If you have a new car, you likely are plagued by a flashing light telling you your tire pressure is low. For example, one woman's light was going off every four to five weeks. After inflating with nitrogen, her light didn't reappear for 53 weeks

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 3:12 PM

I had just gotten a used Buick Lucerne had it for about 6 months.

It seemed to be alright. I just thought it was odd, I had checked the tire just a few weeks prior,

I've heard a lot about inflating with nitrogen, but can't bring myself to justify it.

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#32
In reply to #29

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 4:48 PM

That's the claim, but I think there may be some puffing going on with that one.

The idea is that N2 molecules being slightly larger than O2 and some of the other trace molecules in air improves the performance when the tire is up to temperature and it also helps leakage to a small degree.

Now, since air is already 75% N2 it seems like a very small gain for us regular folks. For racing that is probably another story, but I would not pay extra for N2 in my tires.

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#34
In reply to #32

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 5:08 PM

its Free for life from Costco with their tires

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#38
In reply to #32

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 6:18 PM

I suspect that more likely it has to do with preventing oxidation.

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#59
In reply to #32

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 2:40 PM

Using N2 might be another way of making sure that no moisture is air used in the tire as well.

Some of the poorly maintained air systems don't do a very good job drying the air.

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#69
In reply to #59

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 6:23 PM

GA to you my friend. However, one could use dry air instead of nitrogen. It can be obtained from the fire department or from SCUBA users, and costs less than nitrogen.

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#70
In reply to #69

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 6:44 PM

Those would be one of those systems that have the proper air dryers.

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#33
In reply to #29

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 4:53 PM

A piece of black electrical tape over the light will relieve the stress.

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#37
In reply to #22

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 6:05 PM

Your tires are under inflated, very, very bad in this day and age.

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#26

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 1:56 PM

The answer to the following questions may appear in some article somewhere on the subject, but I haven't bothered to look.

  1. Do we know what temperature the balls were when the pressure was rechecked? Was it checked on the field at 35 deg? Or was it after the game when the balls were sitting back indoor at 70 deg again? If it was later, then the cold weather affect becomes irrelevant.
  2. And if the Colts noticed it during the game, why didn't they bring it to the officials attention and just have the pressure brought up to spec?
  3. If the Colts did mention it during the game, why didn't the refs do anything?
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#40

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 9:33 PM

I was surprised that each team furnishes it's own balls. It seems like an invitation for misbehavior.

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 9:57 PM

They don't, "supply their own footballs". The balls are supplied by Wilson and are new, in the box, for each game.

The boxes are opened, balls are selected/inflated and kept by the officials until game time, when 12 balls in a bag are delivered to each team. (15 min. before game time) Each team uses its own balls during the game.

Other balls are used for kicking.

The problem comes when a ball is intercepted by the other team, and it feels "funny".

The invitation for misbehavior seems to come in the form of an inflating needle.

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#44

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 10:56 PM

I had a bicycle tire blow off the rim after bring it into a heated building from cold Winter temperatures. Another time I had the tire begin to slide off the rim after coasting down a four mile grade where I was riding the brakes the whole time. The rims heated up enough to overinflate the tire.

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#45
In reply to #44

Re: Deflategate

01/21/2015 10:59 PM

That's why they throw footballs and not tires in a football game.

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#48
In reply to #45

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 8:19 AM

Good news, then.

When they change the rules to flag football and ban all contact between players to prevent brain injury, perhaps they can substitute exploding bicycle tires instead of the pigskins to keep the game interesting.

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#49

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 9:05 AM

The isothermal pressure change at constant volume has been documented, but what about the adiabatic pressure change as the original ball is inflated. Won't there be a temporary temperature increase as a result of the inflation, especially as the pressure is is delivered through a small needle?

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#64
In reply to #49

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 3:33 PM

I may have posted this before here, I could not avoid sharing this with all of you again. And it is not so out of focus of this forum, as Boyle´s law affects all of us:

The following is supposedly an actual question given on a university chemistry exam.
The answer by one student was so profound that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well. Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or ndothermic absorbs heat)?

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools
when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant.
One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we
need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate
at which they are leaving.

I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today.

Most of these religions state: that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell.

Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of
souls in Hell to increase exponentially.

Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added.

This gives two possibilities:

  1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.
  2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it?

If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, "it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you", and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over.

The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct...leaving only Heaven thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting "Oh my God."

THIS STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY "A"!!

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#51

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 11:38 AM

The Boston Globe of all publications, has added a new wrinkle here. It seems the Colts noticed the under inflation at their previous, in season, game. The Colts notified the NFL about this prior to the playoff game. The Patriots repeatedly cheat. The penalties for cheating do not affect game play or outcomes one iota. The NFL approves cheating.

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#52
In reply to #51

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 11:46 AM

"The Patriots repeatedly cheat. The penalties for cheating do not affect game play or outcomes one iota."

Just like politicians. ;-)

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#53
In reply to #52

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 11:57 AM

Why must we always deflect into politics?

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#55

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 12:25 PM

The Patriots supplied balls were filled by #13 on their roster, check the roster.

#13 is Houdini, Harry

Position: ME, Magician Extraordinary and illusionist

Ht, 5' 6"

Wt, 150 lbs

Age, 141 yrs

Experience, 115 yrs

Education, Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry http://www.hogwartsishere.com/

Notable Classmates, Harry Potter

Look for #13 on the bench during a game. He is very busy just before the toss of the coin.

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#58

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 2:20 PM

We had a football blow out on us. It was interesting to see how they were constructed.

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#60
In reply to #58

Re: Deflategate

01/22/2015 2:44 PM

We (my family) found this "How it's Made Video" interesting.

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#71

Re: Deflategate

01/23/2015 1:35 AM

https://soundcloud.com/nationofjake/ive-got-flat-balls-deflategate-anthem

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#72

Re: Deflategate

01/23/2015 1:40 AM

Maybe prettier cheerleaders would fix all this.

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#83

Re: Deflategate

01/23/2015 8:00 PM

One year I watched the Rose Bowl and the Super Bowl. The Rose Bowl was a great ball game. The Super Bowl seemed like it was in slow motion, like everybody was tired and wanted to get it over with.

More recently when the Super Bowl was coming up I said, "If anything interesting happens I'm sure I'll hear about it." Something did happen and I've been hearing about Janet Jackson ever since.

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