Mind Your Math

Taking away their cell phone would be a good start.

From personal experience with my 7 year old niece and her friends they seem to like math more now because my brother and I are rather inventive and also good fabricators by nature.

Because we build and do so many technical hobby things they get to see what those numbers and mathematical concepts they are actually learning about are for in real life aplications.

Some times we make them help out with simple stuff as well. Figuring out the ratio of blue ducks to red ducks in class is rather dull. But figuring out the weights and ratios of two or more compounds that make up something that blows up instead of just smoke a lot is much more interesting! (amature fireworks)

If you want kids to have better math skills and scores perhaps blowing up more stuff in class may help!

Schools don't teach subjects well. You only need to remember X amount of info to pass a test. They should be doing application schooling. i.e. let the kids do something, build some thing, test a theory.

That would be a great idea, I think some schools already apply it in so called science projects but I absolutely agree it should be an integral part to the study of any subject at any level.

Dutchy

Nice.

I also heard that 90% of drivers believe they are above average...I know I am above average!

Drew

What better you can expect from Americans?

On the other hand they are experts in money and arms multiplication & subtracting countries from the globe

*It is the same case universally.

*In polytechnics in INDIA, as well in engineering colleges the arrears percentage of mathematics is growing up annually. Many people get satisfied of getting a course completion certificate and are unable to pass in mathematics. As years go it is still becoming more difficult.

*Mathmatics, the NIGHTMARE of average people.

*It is some thing to do with simplification and setting direct questions step marks awarding and liberalizig valuation standards.

*It is more to go into the minds of question paper setters to distinguish between professional mathematics students and general students.

*As passed out engineering student, I could simply manage passing without arrears and happily forgotten all complex mathematics- the basic ADDITION, SUBTRACTION, DIVISION, MUTIPLICATION and few ratio calculations still help me in the long term.

*That means that, make mathematics more user freindly and simplified. Specializations can be selectively of higher standards.

"*As passed out engineering student, I could simply manage ..."

I remember my university days when I was passed out drunk - I couldn't manage anything.

The challenge has two aspects because young students do not understand the value of math. So for under age 10 or so, make it fun! Kids love games and we need to challenge them with something more than the mind numbing electronic/program game drivel they spend so much time on (although a few of these do develop some hand/eye coordination, and navigation and logic skills).

Older students need application challenges which are interesting and provide value (what is in it for them and their future). Once they can understand that math skills are a sound foundation and can have a profound effect on their future quality of life, the final challenge is to match the math skills to their other interests (science, engineering, accounting & finance, statistics, etc.) to keep them motivated

Easier said than done (but not impossible) in a public school system that has no incentive to innovate or change (captive students & uninvolved parents)!

I have spent decades listening to this argument from the time I was a child hammering my numbers onto a stone chart with a chisel until now. All I can say is it is a long and complex answer. It ranges into politics, personal beliefs, and actual reality.

Politically it is strictly bigoted, political speak. It is incorrect to say anything other than "we need more students interested in math and science." Since any other statement would be political suicide. But there is no action to back up that statement, it simply exists like the wind in the prairie, circling around, and around like so many other political statements where no action is planned. The politician knows he can get away with it because of apathy from the general public.

I am sure we have all heard a version of the following comment. "I know I will never use higher math in my lifetime so I see know need to learn it now." To which my reply is. "I am sure that cave men made the same comment about fire." Math/science is not necessary for you to exist, but if learned and used from day to day it can make a world of difference in your quality of life.

What I see as the principle problem, is that everyone will say we need better schooling in math and science. However there is no true encouragement to learn it and no incentives or programs which would support the learning of it. It is easier to take academic courses in other professions which require less discipline, cost less to obtain and dictates an equal or better salary in the end than to proceed into a math/science field.

When I was a kid, I had no one to help me with my math homework and I passed in grade school and did pretty good in High School.

My son is 11. I have to sit up with him until 10pm helping him with his homework, especially when working with fractions. I have to explain to him the same steps over and over again. It makes me wonder if the teachers are actually teaching anything up on the chalkboard anymore. It seems when ever I go into one of his classes the chalk boards are filled with a lot of non-sense art work, rather then actual basic subject matter.

My son learned to read in kindergarten and his reading comprehension is far better then 11 year olds from when I was a kid. We didn't even learn to read in kindergarten, they didn't start to teach reading until the 1st grade.

I'm inclined to think that maybe they are dumping too much work on kids at too early of an age.

This post brought up memories of when I was in 7th to 12th grade; that for many of the students, math was to be feared.

Why do people fear math? I believe that many people believe it is something only "smart" people can understand. Has this fear been created by media portrayal of math being the exclusive domain of professors, scientists and geeks?

Media math sucks:

The x-files word-for-word, in episode "Lazarus":

Mulder: ..."For those of you who remember ninth-grade math, that gives us an area of just over three square miles to cover; roughly 1000 households. With 100 Law Enforcement Officials at our disposal, at about 30 households per man per hour, we should be able to canvas the area in three hours."

NO! Not three hours, but 20 minutes! However, 3 hours must be right because it's a high-tech show. This is arithmetic, not trig or calculus.

Arrrrrgh!

CALCULUS AND INTEGRATION made me to hate mathematics and I prefer running away even for a reward in exchange. TRIGNAMETRY is digest able

*Frankly speaking, most of the disasters to students in mathematics are from papers involving CALCULUS & INTEGRATION, real NIGHTMARES.

I took calculus and differential equations at a community college. Instead of semesters, we had quarters. My first two quarters of calculus were very hard; I had trouble with the concepts involved. However, in the third quarter, when we started doing summation notation, everything seemed to "click", and I understood it all much better. After that, it all was much easier.

I guess my point is that, if I hadn't kept working hard to learn, I wouldn't like math as much as I do now.

Maybe what is missing is teaching a good "work ethic", which is going to come mostly from the parents.

Mike

Work ethic is a strange thing. It is not always easy to teach that rewards come from hard work. I watched as two young brothers were growing up together, the older one was just a few steps faster than the younger all summer long. They used to race to their house after school every day and the younger always lost. He used to get upset and even cry because he just couldn't win. Both boys played outside with vigor all the time. Now a few years later, the younger brother can win any foot race with his older brother and I see him playing outdoors much more than the older brother does. I think the younger brother has learned that if he keeps trying at anything that is tough he will succeed.

That is the work ethic it takes to make it in life. If I were interviewing professionals for a job, one of my questions would be how much they struggled in maths or other classes. Later I would ask them how their grades were in the classes they struggled in. If they got good grades with struggle I would hire them over someone who got good grades without struggle. I would know that if my employee that persevered through difficulties they would be the type of employee that solved their own problems instead of bothering me with things I hired them to do.

Drew

(learning to struggle even if a class is easy)

...take away their CALCULATORS!

...what are they gonna DO when the batteries die in their calculator at Tax Time and they can't even ADD a column of numbers without Silicon Technology help?

...most only know how to find the "square-root" button, but can't equate 12x12 as being the inverse of square-root of 144!

Hi 70AARCuda,

Indeed! Having a calculator to give you an answer before you have learned how to solve the problem without help is not real learning.

I believe that calculators should not be allowed until arithemetic has been learned. After that, algebra, geometry, trig., and calculus problems cannot be solved with a calculator unless you know the principles involved. We always had to show our work. If your work wasn't right, you didn't understand the math, and your grade suffered accordingly. If however, your shown work demonstrated that you understood the concepts, you would get a good grade. Not many marks were lost if you understood the concepts but didn't get the exact answer.

Mike

Hello Drew K,

You said: Work ethic is a strange thing. It is not always easy to teach that rewards come from hard work.

I agree wholeheartedly. I believe this is something that must be demonstrated. Assuredly, scenarios as the one you described happen. Discouragement is a fact of life. How we deal with it can be learned.

I appreciate your comment and give you a GA.

I also notice that you are fairly new to CR4 and I welcome you, representing all of CR4.

Mike

Thanks Mike!

My dad got me involved in the website as we have similar interests. I am a non traditional college student on my way to a Mechanical Engineering degree after serving 10 years Enlisted in the U.S. Air Force. This thread is near and dear to me because of my struggles in math and learning that I am pretty good at it (so far...will update after calculus).

I love geometry in high school because it was presented to me as a puzzle to solve. I was given a few pieces of information about a diagram and was expected to solve other parts. I just wish algebra had been presented to me in the same way back then.

Today, I don't look at math problems, I look at math puzzles that need to be solved.

Drew

Everywhere in the world Maths is considered as boring subject because it is not related to real life examples. So kids think why I am being taught all this junk when I can not use it in real life. Maths should be made interesting subject with real life examples and utility of Maths in future life, then only kids will learn it easily and make good score.

It is just my personal thought I do not know it may be possible or not. Any how I could clear off my Maths papers with little bit difficulties.

Suresh .. you're absolutely right!

I was about to say the same thing: kids have a lot more distractions these days, and something MUST be done to make learning appear more 'real life' to them than is the case.

I mean, let's face it: most kids won't learn how to manipulate fractions into their young-adult life if they're just presented as things one has to apply a standard methodology to. The idea should be to make fractions actually MEAN something and solving them would then have a purpose and value.

Cheers!
DZ

Einstein failed math...

So I have something common with Einstein

I'm going to guess that Einstein failed math becaue he was a visualizer. I'm sure there are many children (like me) who could read before they went to school, because they had been read to, imagined the movie and at some point effortlessly associated the symbols on the (oft repeated) pages with the movie, and learned reading "backwards" so to speak. I know that my brothers and I were shown letters to draw (not from a coloring book, but by example) but they were drawings - and even now I associate certain letters with certain colors which seemed appropriate to the sound and when I read I watch the movie. (Books-on-tape while driving pose a serious hazard, however.)

I've always found math to be a struggle, because it's introduced with arithmetic - symbols only - with which no "movie" can be associated - sound and fury signifying nothing. With my own children, manipulatives and flash cards sold in educational catalogs really seemed to be more of the apparently pointless same, so my boys just had to learn math the same way I did.

In hindsight, although I have no experience to back this up, I'm wondering if it might not be better to introduce children to mathematics with something useful, variable and fascinating - like knots. Learning eye-hand coordination is certainly valuable for a small child. (And of course, it is the basis of 3D perception. Babies don't learn depth until they can manipulate [seek out and masticate] available objects. With knot-making there is counting, sequencing left and right, logic and multiplication when it comes to braids. (Throw in some sparkly beads and the girls will love it.)

My first college math teacher made an interesting comment about making math more interesting. After we had been struggling with various algebra word problems, she said that we shouldn't complain about the word problems. After all we were getting exactly what we had asked for for years. She said people complain "why do I need to know this, how will this ever help me, I will never use this" and so on. Now we get lots of word problems that show exactly how math can be used in every day life....and everybody complains about them .

Drew

I started having math problems in the fifth grade. A returning Vet from VietNam was my summer school tutor and my 6th grade math teacher. He taught me plane geometry during summer school. After that, algebra was a breeze. Trig and Calc? No prob slob. In 8th grade I solved an algebra problem deemed impossible by the teachers book by simply disecting an angle and times phi. Duhh. He taught me to use ALL the tools in my arsenal of knowledge. Now, I get in trouble because my grandaughters go to school on Monday and tell the teacher that " Me and grandpa made hydrogen bombs that floated in the air" from a simple electrolysis demonstration with dishwashing liquid as the bubble, and light it with a bic lighter. How can you teach young'uns when the nation is so whacked out politically correct and teachers don't know how to spell? R.I.P Mr Pendley and thank you.

Let's face it: math can be laborious and there are few shortcuts to learning it. That does not mean it is always drudgery, but often it is. A major part of the problem is that many parents and teachers fail to instill in the children the acceptance that slogging through drudgery is a necessary and even worthwhile endeavor to attain a goal. It is not easy to deal with whining and quitting, but that is included in the drudge-work part of training children. The Christian work ethic, "Whatever you do, do all to the glory of God," is very helpful in this respect.

About six years ago (May 2003?) several researchers published a study in Science magazine comparing the use of classroom time in elementary and junior high schools in Japan, Taiwan, and the United States. The U. S. school was one of the nation's most highly rated public schools. The Taiwanese school's students had the best general test scores of the group, but were closely followed by the Japanese. The U. S. school was well behind in achievement. It turns out that the U. S. teachers spent far more time delivering instructions — 26% of classroom time! — ("Do thus and so. On the next page, do such and such." "Billy, wake up!" "Barry, you get detention for pestering Sue." and so on) than those in the other schools. At all levels, the achievement scores had a direct inverse correlation to the time spent giving instructions. Apparently parents and teachers need to raise their expectations of the students' ability to keep themselves attentive and organized, and should demand that the children know and follow the classroom routine without daily reminders. Teachers should give some thought to organizing their lesson plan to make the most efficient use of time, just as any engineer must prepare presentations to effectively impart necessary information at time-limited business meetings.

I completely agree with keeping calculators away from students until they master basic arithmetic. I would go further and insist that they learn how to do at least some arithmetic in their heads without the aid of external marking devices. This develops working memory and execution processes, which are very valuable for handling complex tasks of all kinds. Besides that, it's a real waste of time to dig around in the paperwork for the "batteries and buttons" to add several single-digit numbers (a scene that exasperated me when I was tutoring a young relative)!

Another key skill that is desperately needed is basic logical thinking. I formulated the proper use of syllogisms and counter-examples during my first school years while discussing current events, politics and science with my parents so it is not something that must wait until grad school. Logic is a necessary part of many endeavors of the mind, and is foundational for mathematics. But when we see the monstrosities coming out of Congress these days, we must conclude that logical thinking has been absent from the curriculum for a long time. Is it any wonder that many students have trouble developing the progressive train of thought needed to solve an algebra puzzle? Using simple examples, parents should start teaching their children logic along with critical thinking skills by the time the children first enter school. Without critical thinking ability, the children not only have difficulty analyzing their math work, they eventually become easy prey for any smooth-talking demagogue able to get TV face time.

It does help to occasionally throw real-world tasks to the young students. One year the school at which I do volunteer work needed a new fan in one of the bathrooms. I told the 5&6 grade teacher about it, and gave her the information that code requires that the fan change the air in six minutes or less. What would be the flow-rate size of the fan in cubic feet per minute? The students had a lot of fun (including a few pertinent jokes, I'm sure) making measurements, doing unit conversions and calculating volume; and yes, nearly all of them got the right answer. I don't think any of them will forget how to do that job. There are similar opportunities in art class with the measurement of materials (an important part of wood-working, for example). Another popular exercise is the calculation of statistics for one or more of the school's basketball teams.

Notice that in the last paragraph I said real-world problems should be used "occasionally." These tasks validate the rest of the work and therefore are incentives to keep at the basic problem-solving drills. However, over centuries of teaching, it's been found that the drills are an efficient means of developing the skills, just as weight-lifting is an efficient means of developing muscle strength. It seems pointless to train for the game if you never get in the game, but you must train to get in and play well. (Among other things, I'm a basketball coach...)

Another key part of the learning process is feedback. Teachers would like to make sure every student gets everything, but it is simply not practical or even desirable for them to meet with each student to discuss every error in the homework assignments. It is better to have the student find the mistakes himself, and provide assistance only when the student gets stuck and doesn't understand what went wrong. Parents are an essential part of the process - if they remember how to do the math and will take the time to help their children find their way past the rough spots. Parents should expect their children to take responsibility for following up on the exercises that cause them difficulties. Parents should know their children's thought processes at least as well as the teachers do, and should be in a position to present alternative explanations or problem-solving methods that may work better for the individual children.

I conclude that the traditional methods are generally effective, but parents or teachers are too often sloppy and inconsistent in their application. The worst cases I know of are where the good old ways were discarded in favor of textbooks spreading PC political propaganda with numbers attached instead of mathematical methods (the school district spent my taxes on THAT?!), or the teachers themselves had a weak grasp of the material (nobody I know personally, but I heard a few stories in college about their victims). Nor does it help that some parents protest the application of school discipline to their little slackers and troublemakers who waste class time instead of taking on the responsibility of reinforcing the lesson.

Alright, a lot of us have some understanding of the problem, and some of us even think we know what should be done about it. So, who's going to run for the school board?

Math class needs to be less boring! It's been proven time and again that students learn Math faster and better if they are shown - and get to work with - its applications. Instead of droning lectures in front of a blackboard, science and math classes need to be combined where students are shown something happening and then figure out the math and science that explains why it happened. Some students do manage to learn Math via the traditional boring methods, but most of them can only parrot back facts for a test and have no concept about how to apply what they've learned. But, it's unlikely that a demonstration teaching method that combines subjects will ever catch on because it requires the teachers to become more than droning machines.