Slick Roads: Newsletter Challenge (03/02/10)

"using the best tires " is the correct answer for winter driving. But 2. gear and front wheel driving also help.

On very slick roads, yes.

You have much more braking control using the brakes than the engine's compression. I learned this many years ago when I was returning from skiing at Mt. Sugarloaf in Maine. It had been bitterly cold for several weeks. As we (four of us) were driving off the mountain, a warm front was passing through with heavy rains. The rain was freezing on contact with virtually all surfaces including the roadways. I was driving a front wheel drive 1975 VW Rabbit and while I thought the roads were just wet with rain, I did begin to notice a lack of feedback through the steering wheel. At that point the car began to fishtail rather significantly, back and forth across the roadway at 45 to 50 mph. Although I was able to keep the car on the pavement, I couldn't seem to get it to stop fishtailing for what seemed liked an eternity but was probably on the order of 20 to 30 seconds of very tightened sphincter muscles.

When I didn't seem to be able to get the car to stop fishtailing (steering into the skid etc), I tried stabbing the clutch in and I regained control of the car in a few seconds. I very gingerly slowed the car down to a stop and when we got out of the car, it was so slippery with water on top of ice, you could barely stand. We got back in the car and idled our way down to a convenience store a couple of miles down the road. We waited there until sand trucks went by.

The point is, on really slick surfaces, neutral (or clutch free-wheeling) is the best way to stay in control while trying to slow down.

Right, that is what I was saying, when freewheeling, your wheels are concentrated upon only one task.

But in the 4 wheel drive, I use engine braking to slow down because all 4 wheels will be slowing me and there is no chance of complete lockup so it is like antilock braking so I can still steer. All I have to do is allow plenty of distance and hit the clutch and brakes when slow enough.

Drew

Can't say much about snow (haven't driven in it much), but assume it is similar to trying to get going on a very slippery black soil or clay surface. Very little traction and you want to avoid wheel spin, otherwise you are more likely to dig in than move.

2nd gear, because of the lower torque delivered to the wheels will give more latitude, but smoothness is critical.

For the length of time you are doing it, the extra slipping of the clutch won't do much damage (as it would if sustained).

When teaching my kids to drive I used to get them to start off using clutch control only, no accelerator. Did wonders for teaching them to operate smoothly. Same works well when starting off on slippery clay.

However, once moving, if wheels start to spin keep going and let them spin. If you stop you will have trouble getting going again and will probably wind up having to dig yourself out.

Don't know how applicable this is to the various conditions encountered with snow.

The maximum traction at the driven wheels is determined by the friction between the rubber of the wheel and street/ground the wheel rolls on (the friction angle). On powerful cars the driveforce on the wheel can be greater than the tractionforce on the wheels - if this is the case the driveforce can be reduced by switching to the second gear (the force of the motor is constant and will be reduced/changed by the gear of the car into speed).

If the car will not run in the first gear correctly on snow than it is helpful to change to the second gear - if the car will running in that gear without stopping the work of the motor.

Have it towed to the dealer. Trade it in for an AWD. Problem solved.

2nd gear. Reduced torque = reduced slipping. Works with some automatic transmissions also.

The traction will be the same! The difference is how you apply the torgue to the wheels. A higher gear will prevent a driver from adding too much at once and allow the car to move (if it will move at all) more slowly away from the starting point. A good driver will use a lower gear, but apply the torque cautiously and move away just as well. Second gear starting is for folks not used to driving in these conditions.

You need to be in the highest ratio possible, that is to keep the torque just sufficient to get you moving while not spinning the wheels or stalling the engine. I enjoy going up hills that 4WD cars get stuck on

Frank Designs has it right (post #29). SMOOTH is the key. Years ago, I took my then-16 year old son to a trade-only racing parts and equipment trade show. On the opening day, there was a big party that evening that included many amusements. One was an oval track with RC cars. He wasn't doing any better than the other drivers until I admonished him, "Remember, Mo, smooth is fast". He worked his way through the pack, actually lapped second place, and held the lead for the remainder of the race. His competition included several professional racers.

I live in Northern CA, and occasionally have to drive "over the hill" to Reno. In addition to the all time record snowfall, there are plenty of other hazards to contend with. Whiteout conditions, unqualified, incompetent drivers, black ice on the bridges and, since we're in the Sierras, lots & lots of long grades, both up & down. Until recently, I had a 4WD pickup, and the drill when crossing the mountains was to put it in 4 Wheel Low, stay off the gas, and BRAKES DID NOT EXIST! It was slow going, but you'd get there, instead of having the CHP spend a week hunting for your dead arse after you punch through a guard rail & tumble 1200 feet down a canyon wall & get buried under four or five feet of snow. Mountain driving in the winter is no joke. If you're inexperienced at it, stay down in the flatlands. It's analogous to going up in an aircraft under instrument conditions when the plane isn't IFR equipped and you're not instrument rated. You'll be playing way out of your league.

Accelleration, braking and turning are what pushes a car toward loss of traction. Under the best of conditions, each tire has a contact area about half the size of a dollar bill. There are a bajillion variables involved in maintaining traction, such as rubber compounding, tire temperature, road temperature, surface conatmination (oil & other lubricants, Glycol, loose gravel, and spillage consisting of God-knows-what). So the only real constant in all this is driver technique which is, in itself, somewhat intangible.

Through all this other stuff, oil slicks, black ice, hopelessly inept drivers, all of it, SMOOTH is what works. If you don't have a delicate touch on the controls, stay the hell off the road!

I'm just amazed at how many responses there are to a driving question.....please stay away from religion and sex

Nah...they are less popular here. Now start on HHO and overunity and you got a touchy subject!

Drew

Second, or even higher if its really icy. On some Autobox cars it is possible to select "hold" to have the same effect by locking a selected higher gear for setting off.

First gear gives more traction than second..

For the same clutch setting, first gear gives more torque at the wheels. Unfortunately, the snow is the limit the initial traction, not the available torque. If the torque you apply to the drive wheels is too high, the tires will start to slip - at which point the actual traction falls rapidly.

The optimum is just as much torque as is needed to get moving - and no more. This is easiest applied in higher gears.

The idea is to be very prudent on how much torque is applied to the wheels.

While it does require some skill, , either gear can be used.

Most folks tend to use 2nd gear , because, I suspect it's one of those urban myths

Being a manual shift car first gear tends to very low in respect to gear ratio. The higher you go up in gear the closer it becomes 1.1 ratio. Sencond gear would not be as low as first gear so you should start out in second. First gear will have too much torque in respect to gear ratio and would tend to make the tires slip more.

Traction, in this situation is the condition when a tire's rotating on an axis, while being in contact with a surface on which the tire is resting or moving, causes a vehicle to move in a forward or a rearward direction. Total traction occurs when the vehicle moves forward or backward a distance equivalent to the circumference of the rotating tire when it makes one revolution. When traction is not complete, the vehicle will not move this distance, and when there is no traction it will not move forward or backward at all. Instead, it may move to one side or the other in response to the forces of gravity, torque of the engine or drive train, or of inertia, what the less enlightened among us used to call centrifugal force. (I'm symbolically poking fun at the gentleman, who brought that to my attention and insisted that there is no such thing as centrifugal force.)

Traction is decreased or lost when a tire is caused to rotate faster than the level of friction it is experiencing on the surface on which it is resting or moving keeps it from "spinning." Based on what my Dad taught me about driving here in the Laurel Mountains of Pennsylvania and the classes and experiences I have had since, I believe that starting a vehicle out in a higher gear will provide the driver with a better opportunity to maintain traction between the tire and the surface than starting a vehicle out in a lower gear. When starting out in second gear, we must "slip the clutch" more than in first gear to keep the engine from stalling. This further reduces the possibility to cause the tire to spin. The very best, coordinated drivers may be able to start out in a lower gear with as much success as the rest of us starting out in a higher gear by feathering the accelerator and the clutch.

When starting out in first gear, which provides a higher mechanical advantage than second gear, more of the engine's power is transmitted to the tire, which can cause it to loose traction, even on hard, dry roads. Those of us who have ever tried to "peal out," "lay rubber," or to "do a donut" in an empty parking lot wouldn't have had much success if we had started out in second gear.

Two more tid-bits of information for those trying to survive slippery roads--and there are more of us this year than in many other years:

1. Some automobiles allow you to start out in second gear with an automatic transmission. Simply, put the shifter in 2nd, and the vehicle is locked out of first gear. They did that to provide you with more traction when starting out and to avoid the sudden jerk and potential loss of traction when using the transmission to hold the vehicle back.

2. When you start a cold vehicle, the RPM's of the engine are usually higher, which cause the vehicle to move forward without depressing the accelerator pedal at all. Especially in rear-wheel drive vehicles with disc brakes on the front and drum brakes on the back, when you apply the brakes to stop at the end of your driveway or at the first stop sign or so when it is slippery, the front brakes cause the front tires to slide, and the back tires continue to push the vehicle forward. This is because most of the braking power is sent to the front brakes and discs work better than drums. At these times, it may be helpful in maintaining control of your vehicle to place the transmission selector into Neutral. This will stop the pushing and allow for more even braking.

This little dissertation has reminded me of other safety driving tips, but that's for another time.

Hope my opinion agrees with your experts.

you will not change traction by changing your starting gear. traction is a measure of friction between the tire and the road surface. you will however, reduce the amount of torque at the drive wheel(s), if you chose to start in a higher gear. provided you do not change the starting rpm you normally use. the higher gear will help keep the tire from breaking loose on the slippery snow. you could just as easily let the clutch part way out for a few seconds to get the car rolling, with the same, if not better result. if you want this problem to go away, go buy real winter tires.

I was raised in the hilly section of NW Connecticut and my father taught me how to drive in snow. He commuted 35 - 40 miles each way over the Ct. hills to go to and from work. He taught me to start in 2nd since less torque is applied to the wheels and it reduces the tendency of the wheels to spin and slip. I drove a 4 speed Corvair and a 4 speed Mustang and 2nd always got me out of a snowbank or up a hill since neither car had all-wheel drive or posi-traction.

The correct answer depends on the driver :)

The likely answer the challenger is looking for is 2nd, or a higher gear to limit torque.

However, speed is important as well, assuming you will be in a 'controlled' slide. The speed differential is inversely proportional to the traction. So, if your tires are spinning faster, you have less thrust.

Torque is important to minimize the risk of losing traction. Using a higher gear does limit torque, however, slipping the clutch smoothly is the real answer.

Maybe it's time for all you "winter driving experts" to see what it's like on a winter rally, and how the pros drive in snow. I don't see anybody starting off in 2nd.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4003719/halls_winter_rally_2010_in_utena_district_on_2010_january_30th/

When I ran winter rallies, we had studs. I don't think these guys have studs.

How can you tell? Did you see/hear evidence of early gear-changes - thought not.

On snow those beasts surely have enough torque to spin the drive wheels in third should they wish.

Well, I used to drive in those rallies, and we always launched in 1st gear--as did everybody else--and we were 90% RWD cars. Back in the last century, 70% of the cars in a rally were Datsun 510s, ranging from stockers to 1800SSS versions--with a sprinkling of Volvos, BMW 2002Tiis, Crickets, Saabs and Jeep Wagoneers. With a limited slip and snow tires, none had any problem getting off in 1st gear.

The first few cars on the video represented AWD, FWD and RWD and--to me--they were all launching just fine.

Sure some were launching fine, given the packed snow and apparently flat or maybe downhill start. But you don't know whether they use first or second. And as for "no problem" some of them were clearly applying too much torque, as the rear wheels were skidding sideways from the start. This may feel good, but it really isn't effective (it's the road equivalent of trimming your sails too tight).

Of course skilled drivers using well adjusted clutches don't need to start in second - but given that second gives more than adequate torque, the time advantage of not having to adjust as carefully, and then not having to release power in order to change up means that it is worth considering starting in second even though this isn't absolutely necessary.

When you launch a rally car into a special stage, you often come out "skidding sideways," as you say. Point is, the car is accelerating like crazy. It's the same on a dirt or gravel launch. The idea is to build maximum speed as fast as possible. Gee, we even get the car sideways on the 1-2 and sometimes the 2-3 shift, but you never lift. Try launching a rally car in 2nd gear, don't get it sideways as it hunts for traction, just do it gently and smoothly--and you will be 10 seconds slower than the sideways car by the first corner.

Almost every special stage on a rally starts with a 100-yard to a half-mile straight before the first corner, and you want to be going as fast as you can when you get there. In rallying, if you are not sideways most of the time, you ain't going fast enough.

This, by the way, has nothing to do with "drifting," which is the slowest way around a corner. Spectacular, of course, but slow.

I think you are saying that slipping tyres get most grip? Although paradoxical (static friction is after all greater than sliding friction) this seems to be true on most surfaces, presumably because the slipping heats the tires and makes them softer. It's also true on very cold snow. There doesn't seem to be any reason for it to apply on snow that is only just below freezing or for driving on smooth ice. Any knowledge?

The majority of everyday drivers dont drive on studs as they are not only a "one off" expensive item used in motor sports events, they are also illegal in most states and would last a few minutes once you return to clear roads........in other words useless for the ordinary driver.

So......professional drivers dont use them either unless we are going up the Rockies, in which case we use chains......and then only if we are either required by law, or if we are sensible enough to see the conditions are bad enough to warrant using them.

Yes we do use second gear if we are pulling a light load, otherwise drive as normal.

No further need to go into the nonsense of what gear to use......just spend 19 months driving in the North American winters then you will wonder what all this garbage is about.

Traction denotes a type of friction. The question asks if you will have better friction if starting the car in 1st or 2nd. The answer is that the amount of friction will not change but the application of starting torque to the wheel(s) is the variable. Starting in 1st will apply a higher more direct torque with a higher application: starting in 2nd will apply perhaps an equal torque but with a gentler application. This will allow the wheel to start turning without losing the existing friction (especially if you are good with the clutch). Slow application of the clutch pressure plate will allow the wheel to turn gently and with acceleration without much loss of friction thereby allowing you to proceed forward and return home where you belong. Even with slow application of the clutch pressure plate when you are in 1st can result in slippage and a reduction of friction. Been driving in NE for 50 years and ain't got stuck yet!

We are interested in starting the car's motion, so you would want to apply rotation to the drive tire at a very consistent rate (with the use of the clutch, first pressing the clutch in to reduce torque applied, and then releasing the clutch ever so slightly, increasing the torque applied), in an attempt to not exceed the coefficient of friction between the tire and the snow. One must fully assume we are in the Northeast U.S., and the tire is in fact, in direct contact with snow, and not pavement.

By utilization of second gear, the tire rotation may be more easily controlled by the operator, (due to the reduced rotational torque from 2nd gear) all the while maintaining optimum power to the drive tire without slippage between tire and snow.

Once underway at a sufficient vehicle speed, the clutch can be fully released, and the next adventure pertaining to stopping on a snow-covered roadway can be experienced!

All this talk of less torque in second gear denies one important factor: The engine's power and torque is determined primarily by the driver's right foot position. If you use first gear, and open the throttle plate by 7 degrees, you will have up to xx.x ft-lbs torque at the rear wheels. If you open by only 5 degrees, you will have much less RWTorque, if your clutch foot applies it.

After you have travelled a meter, you can fully release the clutch. At that point, you will have very good control of the power you apply. Slip and spin can be controlled to a very narrow range.

If you use second, you will need to open the throttle 15 degrees, to make the same xx.x ft-lbs torque at the rear wheels. In some cars it may be difficult to modulate between 6 and 7 degrees of opening. In those cars it may be easier to modulate between 14 and 15 degrees, but I cannot see why that would be true. My car has an arm attached to the throttle sector/ shaft. The first cm of pedal travel gives only 1 or 2 degrees of throttle movement. In such a car (early Porsche 944- not as bad a winter car as you might expect) modulation is much easier below 10 degrees than over.

If you start in second (remember it is a manual shift vehicle - a lot of you have ignored that fact) you will still be slipping the clutch after 1 or more meters of travel. Even if you disregard the clutch wear, this puts you at a disadvantage in keeping things nicely under control. A tiny bit of left foot movement and you drastically change the torque applied to the drive wheels without wanting to. You will need to open the throttle plate much more than 7 degrees to move the car. Remember we are not talking about a greased glass surface here. Snow must be crushed and thus work must be done to the snow for the wheel to begin to rotate.

For the heavy footed teen, in an automatic, second has merit. For anyone with a clutch, no matter how skilled, launching in second will be more difficult if you are in squishy snow, as it sucks up engine power. I have occasionally launched in second or third by mistake on smooth pavement. It takes longer until the left foot is off the clutch, but is not a problem, at under 1200 rpm and nearly no throttle pedal movement.

For all of you: nearly all of your nearly 200 (!!!) posts on this are speculation and exerpts from your wide range of experience. I see little evidence of experimentation. I experimented extensively when I was young, with a 356B coupe in southern Ontario, in snow very much like that of the US NE. I was pretty good with the clutch back then, and still found it better to use 1st than 2nd. I did give second enough tries to know pretty conclusively. If any of you still have snow (ours is all gone now, but Manitoba historically gets blizzards up to the end of April) and a clutch type car with good tires, try both until you get good at it, and report back to us. I am off on an 8000 km trip in my 944 on snows, no studs, to Boston tomorrow. If I find snow (in the UP of Michigan it is likely), I will try second gear a few times, and let you know.

David

What? You're not driving your 917 to Boston?

That's probably because it would last only five minutes on a Boston street before it got stolen. And that's if you were sitting in it. Less time if you park it and walk away.

By the bye, I experimented plenty when we ran those winter rallies. We had to launch from a standing start in various conditions, including deep snow, deep sand, polished black ice, snow over dirt, snow over gravel, snow over pavement, and snow over ice, onto snowmobile trails, logging roads, firebreaks, creek crossings, paved roads, and roads containing deep ruts, bunyip crossings, rockadillos and strut busters. I think I have prit near seen it all when it comes to winter driving.

I still wouldn't start off in 2nd gear, no matter what all these folks say.

For all of you: nearly all of your nearly 200 (!!!) posts on this are speculation and exerpts from your wide range of experience. I see little evidence of experimentation.

I imagine many of us experimented plenty -- I experimented almost endlessly in my early days on icy roads -- this stuff can be great sport. For me, starting off in first always works best, although I can imagine there could be times when starting off in second with an automatic (those that can that can do so) can be advantageous. In my experience, it is a rare car that cannot be started with idle throttle in first, so modulating torque is simple by clutch alone.

These days all this is a moot point: traction control allows you to be as ham-fisted as you want.

The "important factor that is being denied" is in fact irrelevant when you first start.

Electric cars excepted, you can't start with the engine stationary, so the starting torque at the clutch-side of the gearbox is controlled entirely be clutch friction. The only influence of the throttle setting on the torque is then if you carelessly let the engine stall.

So all we need to know is what happens at the wheels for a given clutch setting: depending on the vehicle, you will see about half the torque at the wheels when using second gear as you would when using first. It really is simples - apply enough gas to keep the engine turning, and control the torque with the clutch. And higher gears allow finer control of the torque - but you don't want more initial control than is useful, as this makes changing over to control using the gas pedal more tricky. Second is usually a good compromise.

P.S. On non-experimentation: I learned snow driving in Sweden in the '60s. In those days they let you experiment before they told you how they did it, and I did it wrong on my own, and that felt great until I tried to start on an uphill.

Having lived and worked in construction for many years in New York state, the answer is easy: second gear. This places less torque on the drive wheel(s) & less chance to start the drive wheels(s) spinning, resulting in more traction.

second gear. Will tend to grip without spinning out.

Jim

the best is always to drive in order - use the second gear only if you are fast enough

2nd gear

second gear. Less torque is applied to rear wheels and a softer start so tires

dont loose their traction.

Start out in second gear. The amount of torque that you can apply to the driving wheels initially in second gear is less than in first gear. You have to slip the clutch more and therefore you will spin your rear wheels less. I learned this many years ago having grown up in Northeastern Wisconsin.

Fred

On snow and ice you stand a better chance of getting away if you start off in Second Gear as the Torque will be lower and will ease clutch control

Well, I did not grow up in the north-east, but in the Great White North - Canada. Snow on the ground for six months of the year. Learned to drive in 1969 using a 1965 Dodge 1/2 ton truck - 3 on the tree. Then had a MGB, a '68 Camaro (375hp-396), a Dodge Dart (340), a 260Z Datsun - all manual transmissions, all driven year round. Traction control was known as your right foot. I still own manual transmission vehicles but live in Vegas - the home of the most slippery asphalt I have encountered. A previous poster hit the nail on the head - "SMOOTH". The gear is irrelevant, but probably takes a little more talent to use first gear, easier to spin the tyres - which usually does not help you move in snow - so the answer for the masses will probably be second gear. I always use first/reverse/first/reverse/... (do not forget the shovel - needed for when "hung up") I also was educated by many drivers, while living in Colorado for 11 years, who demonstrated, it does no matter which gear you use when you do not keep the shiny side up!

Second gear, case closed!! You can discuss it all you want but it will still be second gear.

first will give you the best chance of maintaining wheel to road contact without spinning as you start off. You should shift as quickly as possible into second to reduce the amount of torque available to the wheel, which could easily cause the wheel to spin, reducing traction. this is from decades of driving on snow and ice, not from doing any math. If you start off in second, you are likely to stall out and the engine lugging will force you to press down on the accelerator, making the wheel spin, reducing traction. You're more likely to lose traction any time there is a rapid change in velocity. You should not try to maintain speed going up a hill, but hold the accelerator in a single position, allowing the car to slow because as it is slowing, it is maintaining the best contact between tire and road. Giving it extra fuel will make the wheel spin. Pulling back on the gas will make it less likely that you can make it to the top of the hill before velocity reaches zero. The only times you are forced to make rapid changes in velocity are when you are starting up and when you are stopping or slowing down to contend with a stop sign or stop light. If you could drive the whole distance in first and second gear, that might be best--use first gear for speeding up and to take care of braking so you can avoid using the brakes. If you absolutely must stop before entering traffic or an intersection, make use of snow drifts and the piles of snow plows leave behind. Don't drive directly into them, but edge up against them so the side of the car will serve as a brake. This will almost certainly put wrinkles in your sheetmetal, so this is an emergency tactic to be used when you're going too fast. Expect damage, but if the alternative is to be t-boned by cross traffic in a busy street, this will save you thousands of dollars and possibly save your life. Rapid braking would turn your car into an uncontrollable toboggan.

You can only apply the same torque that can be resisted, a tyre on ice will tend to slip therefore minimal torque will be transferred. Due to this low amount of torque able to be transfered before generating slip it would be optimal to select the gear which applies less torque that being the second gear.

We know if tire-to-road friction is such that there is no slipping (e.g. dry driving conditions) the car will accelerate most rapidly from a stop in first gear.

Now think about a two wheel drive, manual shift car.

Its differential divides engine torque two ways and allows each driven wheel to rotate at a different speed, to turn corners without winding up (or tyre scrubbing).

(BTW, that's where the differential gets its name … different-ial..)

The differential always applies the same torque to both wheels.

So, the maximum applicable torque is that which doesn't make a wheel slip.

It takes little torque for a wheel to slip on snow or ice.

When this happens, (the differential works such that) the remaining driven wheel can get only the small amount of torque applied to the slipping wheel.

If this is insufficient for the good wheel to move the car then the car won't move.

Because of the gearing in the transmission, the torque delivered by an engine at a given speed (with clutch engaged) is greater in first gear.

So, if you start out in second (or even third) gear instead of first less torque is available to the wheels (which is why it is more difficult to accelerate rapidly from stop in higher gears).

It follows that on snow and/or ice choosing a higher gear makes it easier to accelerate without wheel spin.

Finally, the question is "If it's been snowing and the driving conditions are slippery, will you have better traction by starting your car's motion in first or second gear?"

It's a badly phrased question! If a wheel slips in either first or second gear you will have no traction!

However, had the question been "If it's been snowing and the driving conditions are slippery are you likely to have better traction by starting your car's motion in first or second gear?" then the answer is second gear.

the differential lets the wheels roll on the street - without any differential both wheels of an axle will slip and rub

A limited-slip differential is supposed to alleviate the problem of one wheel with poor traction spinning while the other sits like an anchor, but it's an expensive option. Has anybody programmed an anti-lock brake system to drag the slipping wheel so the other can get some torque through a conventional differential? In really marginal conditions, both (or all four) drive wheels will slip, no matter how carefully you drive.

Which begs the question: unless you're just trying to get out of a snowed-in parking spot, how crazy or foolish are you if you're trying to drive in that mess?

This is a cool topic for a warm summer day.

My everyday car this summer is an old 5 liter 4-barrel 5 speed Capri, with a clutch type limited slip diff. I used it on an icy day (once!) in the 90s. Any touch of throttle would cause both rear tires to slip. You then find the road's camber sends the rear end downhill toward the curb. Not fun. I never again wanted to drive it in icy weather. Of course this also meant that the car has no rust at 25 years of age.

It is easier to drive an open diff than a clutch type lim slip. As soon as the revs climb a bit, you have to cut the power for a second or so, for the rubber and ice to get to know each other again. A viscous lim slip might be easier. Better to use the best tires, and some well-thought out techniques.

take a kick down in a wathever gear-driven car and you will slip around the street!

In second gear.

reduce the power of the cars motor and there will be much less problems with driven and starting the car on snow and ice - this is the same effect as driven in a higher gear!