Foods Not Suitable for Vegetarian Consumption (Part 1)

Interesting stuff, and now I'm hungry.

It's always a fun food time when my brother the vegan comes to visit. I have to be very careful about checking food ingredients, because he won't even eat honey.

Then perhaps you should start a separate thread about that.

No one would expect a lion to substitute peanuts in favor of a zebra...

Not so long ago, no one would have expected humans to fly or set foot on the moon. Humans do not fly by nature. I believe this has happened.

Yes, humans are omnivorous by nature, but nature is not static.

Nor do we fly by nature still. We have merely created machines to do our work for us. Lions are carniverous by nature and have been for as long as men have been writing about lions. Men have been omniverous for so long that we have to think and change our own ways just to become vegetarians. I would have to tell my daughter that she cannot drink mommies milk because it is "wrong". She naturally knowing this to be incorrect would look at me weird then go back to drinking her milk. It is not natural for humans to be vegetarians.

Interestingly, dear guest, Lions and most carnivores take some delight in eating the intestines of their prey.

The last bit tends to be the 'frame'. The muscle and skeleton, "as seen on Discovery Chanel"

If you revisit those documentaries, you will see no neatly discarded stomach and bowel, (stuffed full of greens) - cause they ate it first.

Just as if you feed your cat or dog entirely on meat - they will eat grass (or be constantly be plagued by a range of problems)

Just as 'vegetarian animals' eat insects happily, carnivores need a bit of veg.

As you should too - unless you wish to suffer any number of deficiencies - well - more than already. Perhaps consider some vitamin K and a trace of lithium?

"Just as if you feed your cat or dog entirely on meat - they will eat grass (or be constantly be plagued by a range of problems)"

True to an extent...the BARF (bones and raw food) diet upheldby many in the dog world to be the best way to feed, contais 60% meat, and 40% rice and veggies.
Even commercially prepared pet food contains rice or grain and veggies.

However, the grass part? Truth be told, no one knows why dogs and cats eat grass. It does not satisfy any craving for vegetable matter, is not at all digestible (as evident by the mess on the carpet shortly after) and, in some cases, can actually do damage to the stomach or small intestine if ingested in large amounts. Some believe that animals eat grass to make themslves vomit (hey, that works really well!!!!) if something they ate earlier (that dead, rottng thing they dug up in the garden?) didn't exactly sit well. Others say they do it because they like the taste. Still others say there is a trace mineral or enzyme in grass that they crave. But studies have not proven any of these to be true.

My dogs eat horse poop and love it. And that's fine, in moderation, and as long as they don't eat grass afterward!

True of very green grass Mrs R. Maybe I should have said vegetable matter.

Stock droppings are a favorite with working dogs on a meat only hand out. Duck dropping bring a new meaning to BARF.

Hmmm... just a couple comments on the candy section.

First I wouldn't worry about cochineal being used in candy. The chances of this expensive natural dye being used for mass production of candy are very slim. Think chemicals, when you see red.

Second for gelatin alternatives: I think the first marshmallows were actually made by boiling the roots of.. marshmallows - a lovely flower, rich in mucilage like its relative the hollyhock. These plants are safe edibles. Pectin is also very safe.

I do not know if the vegan just believe its healthier to eat vegetables or because of animal rights.

some its are not total correct these days such as;

Cheese is often made using rennet,

This enzymes (rennet) can be made in the lab which is becoming more accepted., except of more of the artisan cheeses which still uses the old world traditions.

Off the subject a little, the Arabs would carry milk in goats stomachs as containers and after traveling in the hot sun, they had curds. and invented cheese,

What about beer (ale). Lots of brewers use isinglass as finings to make the yeast flocculate. Isinglass was traditionally made from the swim bladder of the sturgeon, but, now other fish are often used.

One of the biggest heart breaks I ever experienced was when someone told me that there was lard in most commercial cupcakes and deserts like Ho-Ho's.

I just close my mind to any insinuation that any animal products may be used in making beer.

I have been a vegetarian for 10 years now. We do eat fish periodically, so I guess my wife and I are more semi-vegetarian.

pescetarians – vegetarians that eat seafood

Wow, that makes it official then!

I was never vegan , but was an ovo-lacto vegetarian, meaning I would eat eggs and dairy products.

But now, I have a new designation.

Thanks, Jaxy!

What is a vegetarian who doesn't eat anything with a pretty face or eyes, and doesn't eat fish or seafood because it is disgusting (and like most vegetarians feels very strongly that others should be willing and be required to partake in her beliefs)?

The true about vegetarian is not always what the people thinks.It is not a kind of church or a secret club. It is not a belief or way of life.

The true is that the human body doesn't metabolize the long protein from animals and that produce several problem inside the human body this condition bring down the calcium and make some of the most problematic sickness that inflict the human body. That is why some people become vegetarian. No all vegetarian know about this. More of them are vegetarians because they know their bodies react fantastic. You can feel this by become vegetarian at least four months, but you must to be 100% vegetarian. This mean you don't eat meat of any king including sea food, milk, cream, butter, eggs, even honey and anything that came from animal. Open your mind and do not be afraid about things you don't know.

Javier

Ok that whole commentary was

a. incorrect. Plants have some more complicated longer chain proteins than animals, as a matter of fact plant biochemistry is frequently more complicated than animal biochemistry, simply because plants have evolved to be immobile and use advanced chemistry for all their needs include nutrient extractions ex-situ, defense, procreation, multi-species attractants,and numerous molecular controls against varying adverse environmental conditions that animals will just move away from or seek shelter. Plants also have the same general metabolic processes, though steps and proteins differ and may be more complex in plants, as animals plus a few additional ones, like photosythesis, which all require proteins, albiet distinctively different. In addition, proteins in many mammals are nearly identical to those found in humans, to the degree we use them in humans all the time in medical treatment. In order to do the same with degraded plant precursor molecules we have to perform some complicated chemical modifications before we use them. Plants also produce a large number of complicated chemical toxins, animal mutagens, and carcinogens (coal is actually derived from compressing plant tissues, and is full of carcinogens). A large number of the proteins from pigs, cattle, sheep and horse are so similar that many are indistinctive from human proteins. Let alone things like monkeys and apes.

and b. a crazy recommendation. Protein deficiency is the most common form of nutrient deficiency world wide, and was the main cause of the stunted growth in more ancient periods. Animal products are actually the most viable source of proteins, people who are deficient, and stunted, have a short fall of animal meat in their diets, common amongst some hunter gatherers and some areas with rudimentary agricultural capacities to raise plants but lacking in meat production. A lack of proper dietary needs, including meat can have exteremely adverse impacts. We obtain many nutrients from meats we can not efficiently obtain from other sources, without substanital technological modifications or a adverse impact. Protein deficiency can cause a substantial reduction in height and body mass, particularly bone growth and densities. Insufficient effective protein consumption can cause a loss of hieght of 6 inches while remaining viable and active (reasonably health to survive).

bloodandiron, Welcome - GA - nice to see some facts and references in this most interesting discussion.

Easily ?? I'd like to see you eating 21 potatoes, and on top of that, eat a variety of foods and enough of them to not starve, (how about a load of corn?).

Yes Javier is crazy in that he recommends his diet.

It's a good thing that you provided these links, it's enlightening but, we omnivores are just fine in the number we sum. Don't need to push our diets thru nobodies throat. If you're a veggie, thats fine, go for it; just don't try to convince me that I'm wrong and you're right.

Yahlasit

That 21 potatoes would be all you had to eat throughout the whole day. And I chose that example (and the corn one) as an extreme one to show that even something with as little protein as a potato can provide all the protein you need for the day. If you eat a balanced load of foods, you will not have to worry about protein no matter if you are a vegetarian or not.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything about whether one diet is better than another, I was simply addressing inaccuracies in RCE's post, mainly that it is not difficult to get the proper amount of protein in a vegetarian diet.

Ga and great references

what do you call a vegetarian that eats insects?

usually unknowningly.

A frog or maybe a trout. Oh wait what level of cognition is required o define the capacity to "know" their actions?

I have a few friend who call themselves vegetarians. And they wear that badge proudly. They tend not to force it on me, but they do bring it up. I'll asked them about their diet.

And point out specifics. Grains, what type of grains? Commercially processed?

Fruits same thing? Preserves the same?

Then I point out to them they are eating animal proteins though sometime small quanitise, not always. such as worms, bugs, eggs, insects, larvae, small amphibians and reptiles. Then I show them the documentation of allowable of these proteins that are accepted to go in commercial products.

I am not even getting into the thickeners from animal proteins that go into these products. they don't talk to me much about there diets anymore.

But I do enjoy discussing it with PETA activists. And it doesn't stop at food stuffs, that goes to clothing, medications, shelter, transportation.

I just want them to understand when they cross the line. They would be quite naked to the world, but its their choice.

And I do not know if this is off topic, but I understand that advances in brain development in humans only occurred after the humans began eating animal proteins, just due to the proteins were more easily digested.

p911

advances in brain development in humans only occurred after the humans began eating animal proteins, just due to the proteins were more easily digested.

I challenge that. Please provide a source. Check this out.

I'll look for it, one of them as I recall was on discovery channel (others on CR4 scough at that type of source), I see if I can find it elsewhere.

And the proteins were not so much meat from the muscle of the animal as from bone marrow from animals, because they were scavengers.

And yes meat is acidic, this is were they say (medical community) would say its bad.

p911

If you are going to challenge thats fine, and then throw that site in, that is weak because it's bias. Do you realize who supports that site?

But I meet your challenge.

I avoided the pro meat or pro vegan sites because that was very bias and support their own beliefs,

Here is some brief info what I found to support my view

Sounds like seafood helped allot for early man brain development, Still animal protein

and This was actually interesting and was not what I expected or thought of.

This articles was leaning to Vegetarians for brain development and after reading it was surprise and the out come.

Early man brain development and extended life has more to thank to the family nucleus (grandparents), than anything else.

I like to think that a well balance meal is the key and this would reinforce that.

p911

I thought religion was out of bounds

Vegetarianism many time rises to that level of irrational belief

I can't tolerate beef & avoid it mostly

my brother's wife is gluten sensitive

my sister is lactose intolerant

the unwife wouldn't eat green food

when my family gets together we play a game lets plan a meal everyone can eat..

wow, happy thanksgiving

Time was, you'd cook up a big scoff and invite all, and everyone came and ate hearty whatever you prepared.

Nowadays, everyone is on a diet. For health reasons, or for allergies, or for any other reason: the effect is the same. When you invite folks for dinner, you better first ask about their dietary restrictions or be prepared to serve a big dish of uh-oh-you-don't-eat-it.

It's good to know vegetarian and vegan cooking, but also diabetic, high cholesterol, etc etc, and honestly, I'm shocked at the amount of allergies that people are developing, who used to eat freely. It's gotten to be so complicated, sometimes best to go to a restaurant.

Used to be lard, when it was dirt cheap. (and IMO tasted way better!) Now they use shortening, which is soybean based. Still horrendouslybad for you, and tastes lousy.

I am not a vegetarian by any means or definition, but I do refrain from actual meat consumption on a limited basis.

I have many vegetarian and vegan acquaintances, my doctor included.

Vegetarian simply has too many variations to list but is considered to be one who refrains from eating meat, but who may or may not eat animal products.

A vegan, according to my doctor, eats NOTHING that is RAISED, nor any product resulting from that action. It is always due to the choice of having NO impact on ANY animal, wild or domestic.

A true vegan eats only that which is GROWN in the soil, preferably locally, with as little (or zero) processing, transportation, or other impact on the environment as possible.

As a result, many can be considered vegetarian to some extent, but true vegans are very few and far between, and even more that claim to be one or the other, as Jaxy shows here, are absolutely clueless.

I wouldn't call them clueless, per say... They just never thought to affix a specific label on themselves. Calling yourself a vegetarian, vegan, or otherwise is just adding a label. Otherwise, these CR4 members just eat what they want to eat without labeling their diets.

Remember, most of them are just joking and making light.

Funny story. A vegetarian I know went to the Doctor to get a check up because of her iron deficiency. First a little back story, she became a vegetarian, not vegan though, in her late teens around 17 or 18. She eats milk, cheese, turkey and chicken, but nothing with a face or disgusting like seafood, LOL. At anyrate she is in her mid to early 30s, and she has been having a persistent problem with iron deficiency and cholesterol issues. They have had her on medication now for about 3 years and the condition is not improving. she has been to several doctors, apparently not liking the previous recommendations, which she didn't disclose. The most recent doctor was asking her about her diet, and she explained, and apparently he had a realization and suggested she includeg small amounts of red meat in her diet, she implied she had heard this recommendation before and disapproved of it. At any rate when he got back her blood test he realized her LDL/HDL was way offand apparently found himself in a quandry over the red meat thing then, and modified his suggestion to a bunch of prescriptions. this makes me wonder, since we are related, and i eat a ton of red meat, have no iron deficiencies and cholestrerol is at normal level as well as HDL/LDLs, and i am nearly 8 years older. Maybe it is not better to have an unbalanced diet in one food group any more than any other.

I have one...Years ago, my sister and I lived in Santa Cruz, CA, in a lovely huge Victorian house 2 blocks from the boardwalk (rented for a pittance, too...those were the days!) We had a lot of house mates, and every year would have a gigantic Thanksgiving feast, where all would come with their friends or partners and eat ourselves silly. In Santa Cruz, vegetarianism had just taken off, but it was still a new idea, and man of us did not quite understand the nuances of it yet.

There was one year that one of the house mates brought a friend who was a vegetarian. When time came to sit and eat, she refused to partake of any of the food offered, stating loudly that SHE was a vegetarian, and did not eat anything with animal products. Mashed potatoes? No, they had milk and butter. Beans or any of the other veggie dishes? No, for whatever reason. My sister offered the up the final straw...jello salad. The girl stood up, and in a loud obnoxious voice, stated that jello was made from horses and cows, and went into a tirade about how stupid we all were not to know that, and how we should be more considerate of her because she was a vegetarian and had special needs.

To that, the room fell silent (all glaring at the person who had invited this woman)and my sister said "well, then why don't you just have another bottle of wine and go outside and smoke yourself silly while we finish eating?" She did.

I tried to be a vegetarian, which lasted for about a week. I now eat about 80% vegetable and 20% fish or chicken or turkey. Beef is out, since my husband can't digest it, so I stopped buying it. After a while, I was unable to digest it as well!

I think a vegetarian diet can be OK for some, if done wisely with proper nutrition in mind. But, if you are a vegetarian, for God's sake, do NOT make your pets be vegetarian too! That is going way too far, and as a vet tech, I have seen many many under- and mal-nourished animals suffer because their owners were certain they should be vegetarian too.

And don't be a jerk about it, OK? I understand you want to eat a vegetable-based diet, for whatever reason. Thats just great! However, I do NOT need to be lectured on how horrible it is to eat what I choose to eat, and really don't need to hear how animals are treated, or what they do to chickens, or whatever. I am not a supporter of PETA, and wear leather proudly. SO, do what you do, and I'll do what I do, and we can live in peace and love and harmony. But start lecturing me, and it's on, beeyatch!

That girl was just crazy and mean. People who think that they are better then others because they don't eat meat is really a problem with them and not all vegetarians.

To support the idea that not all vegetarians are like that, I will provide a countering example. My boyfriend has told me several times that if he was not living with a bunch of other guys (college apartment), that he would be vegetarian. He does not look down upon his friends because sometimes they prepare meaty dinners, nor does he complain. Instead, he introduces his friends to vegetarian recipes from books like the Veganomicon and a cookbook from Moosewood Restaurants (can't remember the title off the top of my head).

Of course he has more of a "vegetarianism is better for the environment" stance than a don't eat the pretty animals stance (or PETA stance, for that matter). I remember my mother always gets fussy when he comes over for dinner (saying "Can he have this, or that??") and I always tell her that he will eat anything you put on his plate (as long as it is food). I have been eating mostly vegetarian (I am thinking of switching fully, but the timing is not ideal) for months now. Although I personally believe that vegetarianism is better for your body and the environment, I would not turn down a turkey dinner, just saying.

I love that cookbook! New Recipes from Moosewood Restaurant

I highly recommend the West African Groundnut Stew (p.122), a high protein dish I've been making for years. And no one's gotten hurt yet.

I will definitely check it out. By the way, they also have an index of some recipes on their site, and the West African Groundnut Stew is one of them!

I have never had okra before, although I have seen it in produce sections. What does it taste like?

Like sucking a green snail.... Tho I'm certain there are some cajuns and Texans who would disagree!

Mmmmm, snails. These blogs always make me hungry.

How cool is that! Interesting, it's a little different than my 1987 version, which has eggplant but no cabbage or okra. Well, I can just add those ingredients, too, the more the merrier! Okra would make it more authentic, since it's originally African.

Okra is one of those more-of-a-texture-than-taste things. It can be a bit slimy but most gumbo lovers (and ya can't make a gumbo without it) don't mind. It also serves as a thickener for stews and soups.

Crazy, oh yes. Mean? Maybe. Drunk? As a skunk.

I love the juxtaposition of this girl stating (in a holier than thou way) how her diet makes her a better person, and much healthier, etc etc etc, as she's swilling cheap box wine and smoking ciggies one after another.

As I said, it was at the start of the veggie revolution, it was just being brought out in the open. I guess there were small pockets of veggie people in the closets around the planet for a long while before this, but you were just now hearing about it being more widespread...

And, well, it WAS Santa Cruz, man! The serial killer capital of the world!

Haha. She is quite the hypocrite. There are a lot of people who go out of their way to be "healthier", like diet and exercise and then keep their smoking habits or excessive sweets habit.

I think that even though it was a while ago that vegetarianism started, I think there are quite a few other people that think that vegetarians are still snobby (drunk or not).

I have also noticed that it seems vegetarianism and yoga come hand-in-hand, although I suppose it is because both are for better bodies.

It takes something like 10 lbs of grain to produce one pound of beef.

I was a veg for many years do to being a poor college student and only being able to afford beans and rice. It was never a philosophical choice. This lasted for many years after college. It ended when my wife (a life-long veg) had cravings for meat when she was pregnant with our first child. We are smart enough to listen to the body. Now our diet is 99% non-meat based. We eat cheese, milk, and eggs (from our chickens). We eat salmon and steelhead I catch and we raise a few turkeys every year. We have a cow for our milk and we will slaughter some goats when we have some freezer space.

I think being conscious about your food is the most important... avoiding the instant gratification/ pretty packaging marketing that impels our consumption in today's society.

No matter your food habits, there is always going to be waste (unless you are a scavenger). That being said, everyone following one food choice would not be ideal either (if all of the sudden everyone only ate vegetarian, there would be problems - the supply would not meet the demand). I personally believe that eating the way I do has less of an impact on the environment than other diets.

Livestock contributes to soil damage, water pollution, deforestation, greenhouse gas emissions, etc. Of course protein is more efficient to transport via animal versus vegetables, vegetables aren't a good source of protein, so you have to transport a heck of a lot more vegetables to get the same amount of protein in a slab of steak. That is why you get protein from sources other than vegetables.

I am just so fed up with meat having problems with hormones and contamination, not to mention the marketing ploys to add weight to meat by injecting water. At least no one has come onto this blog screaming "prepackaged foods ftw!" (ftw = for the win)...

Livestock contributes to soil damage, water pollution, deforestation, greenhouse gas emissions, etc.

So did a herd of American Bison

I am just so fed up with meat having problems with hormones and contamination, not to mention the marketing ploys to add weight to meat by injecting water.

So what is this crap about Angus Beef as to compared to others.

Yeah, but bison moved around and gave the ground time to regrow. Farm land for cows and other livestock stays as land for farmland and the land near to the barns become all muddy (and poopy) after all the years of cows going in and out of the barn. This is much different than free roam bison. Farms constantly wear and tear the same soil for years.

yes those feed lots are intensive.

Farms constantly wear and tear the same soil for years.

Actual longer than that, its up to the farmer to be a good steward to reduce environmental impact, which will never be 0,

As far as movement of the cattle, that is held to a minimum on a feed lot. As far as farms wear and tear. crop farming is the same. And to reduce the impact of this, one has to revert back to an nomad existence as a hunter/gather, which is out of the question.

Actually, range cattle from large operations almost never have a Barn, it would not be a cost effective structure. There are temporary structures such as corrals set up for bringing in the herd. These, however, are not for the cattles environment, but rather for health maintenance and management of the cattle.

It is the small localized "free-range" home grown operations that treat cattle with such amenities as barns, or the highly controlled/managed operations like dairy where the overhead is worth the investment. Bison and cattle have the same effect on the soil, and when Bison herds were huge they developed compacted soils strips, we would call trails. The problem with densification only occurs when you place to high a density of cattle on a unsustainable operations where they have to be augmented substantially with imported food sources. Desification around watering holes occurs in nature just like it does on cattle operations, much of africa can show great examples of this occurring (or other locations where animals gather frequently). Even small animals like Deer leave densified trails in the soil.

Range cattle is different from feedlot raised. meat is leaner

Gee Thanks Jaxy - a picture of a feed lot!

My food habits seem similar to Sues by the sound of it. I think the problem in all these "miracle cures", or anything really, that hard-lines one pole or the other, is someone has left out half the bits.

Mind you, if what is becoming the average westerner ate half, it would solve over half the problems.

You don't need to be sarcastic about the link I provided to site where I got the information.

Who mentioned "miracle cures"?

It was not sarcasm about the link. It was humor at you linking immediately to a feed lot in response to "These are also an energy unsustainable practice.". I.e. I don't like/approve of the energy equation (nor anything else about the practice). The only bigger "red rag" you could wave at me is a brown coal water media power station.

"miracle cures" I did. It refers to all 'snake oil', be it technical, environmental, (or even medicinal), where the outcomes are void and/or the consequences are more damaging than the "problem". The PETA Utopia falls into this, along with an invented 14% climate impact of "beef" - which is illustrated as 120 degrees of arc = 33.3%.

Consider this alternate approach;

Back in the 1950s rabbit meat was as common for dinner as chicken is today. It is the meat they got many people and their children through the lean times of the Depression. They lost their popularity after Big AGRA, who wanted to get maximum profits with the cheapest bottom line using the government endorse chemicals and handouts. Because of this rabbits didn't make sense. So why even rabbit meat now? Below you will find a few reasons why you should consider adding rabbit meat to your diet.

1. It is one of the best white meats available on the market today.

2. The meat has a high percentage of easily digestible protein.

3. It contains the least amount of fat among all the other available meets.

4. Rabbit meat contains less calorie value than other meats.

5. Rabbit meat is almost cholesterol free and therefore heart patient friendly.

6. The sodium content of rabbit meat is comparatively less than other meats.

7. The calcium and phosphorus contents of this meat or more than any other meats.

8. The ratio of me to bone is high meaning there is more edible meat on the carcass than even a chicken.

9. Rabbit meat with the many health benefits does not have a strong flavor and is comparable to chicken but not identical.

10. Rabbits are one of the most productive domestic livestock animal there is. Rabbits can produce 6 pounds of meat on the same feed and water as the cow will produce 1 pound of meat on the same feed and water.

So as you can see there are many health benefits to eating rabbit meat. It is healthy for you and cheap to produce. Why not try to incorporate some rabbit meat into your diet today.

link http://www.articlesbase.com/nutrition-articles/10-reasons-why-you-should-eat-rabbit-meat-2127148.html#ixzz0nCxH5N6v

Under Creative Commons License: Attribution

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Note; "Rabbits can produce 6 pounds of meat on the same feed and water as the cow will produce 1 pound of meat on the same feed and water."

This, by the way is in feed lot conditions, and over PETA's dead body, and bring the same concentration of chemicals to the product. But in a 'free range' version it would be around 4:1 or cut the fart problem by a quarter (if rabbits farted pro-rata with ruminants)

I.e. It's not about "meat", it's about the sucky energy efficiency choices.

All I was doing was provided a link to show where I got the information as to why livestock is bad for the environment. I was merely citing my sources.

I appreciate that Jaxy. All I was doing was recommending an environmental overview. No slight or "personalizing" intended.

But hey; now everyone knows about rabbit meat not fitting "the tunnel dogma", you can all choose rabbit and put cattle grain lots out of business!

What you might need is preemptive legislation on the inevitable race for the giant fatty rabbit, at market weight in half normal time, fed on a cocktail of hormones, vitamins and antibiotics, as in what these days passes for chicken, or the whole thing just becomes the next assault on the environment.

I've seen this before, be afraid, be very, very afraid