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Frozen Pond: Newsletter Challenge (November 2011)

Posted October 31, 2011 12:00 AM

This month's Challenge Question:

Frozen Pond

We know that at a temperature of approximately C, water begins to expand before freezing (0° C). Why is this fact important for the fish in a pond?

And the answer is:

Most liquids have a quite simple behavior when they are cooled (at a fixed pressure): they shrink. The liquid contracts as it is cooled; because the molecules are moving slower they are less able to overcome the attractive intermolecular forces drawing them closer to each other. Then the freezing temperature is reached, and the substance solidifies, which causes it to contract some more because crystalline solids are usually tightly packed.

Water is one of the few exceptions to this behavior. When liquid water is cooled, it contracts like one would expect until a temperature of approximately 4 degrees Celsius is reached. After that, it expands slightly until it reaches the freezing point, and then when it freezes it expands by approximately 9%.

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#74

Re: Frozen Pond: Newsletter Challenge (November 2011)

11/30/2011 5:40 AM

Similarly,

if you forget a beer bottle in the freezer, you can save the bottle from bursting by handling it by the neck only as it reaches the [beer] freezing point .

Cooling further down the contents will freeze and expand. The bottle will probably still whitstand the additional pressure.

But then, at around zero F, the bottle will burst eventually. Why?

The beer is a solid now and contracts at lower temperatures.

This is not the December challenge!

brgds

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#85

Re: Frozen Pond: Newsletter Challenge (November 2011)

12/01/2011 4:58 AM

Starting from the fact that any thermal difference generated water movement because of it's small scale, gets some significance ONLY for water not moving under the effect of the wind above it, i.e. stationary, like the water just under a layer of formed ice, actually this water property should tend to resist that thermal movement (other than thermal theory microscopic level molecule movement). So as a result it actually decreases equivalent "thermal conductivity" from ice surface to hotter water layers under it, which can be an important factor for life, and by the way, has no important contribution on dissolving oxygen in water process, but does seem to contribute to oxygen being kept diluted in water under an ice layer for longer time. S.M.

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Join Date: Nov 2011
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#87
In reply to #85

Re: Frozen Pond: Newsletter Challenge (November 2011)

12/01/2011 8:13 PM

This is the type of complex answer we are looking for. There are so many complex variables. Does the ice "insulate" oxygen from the surface, from dissapation. Rankinstein.

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#91
In reply to #85

Re: Frozen Pond: Newsletter Challenge (November 2011)

12/01/2011 8:32 PM

I know you've noticed, but you can lower the temp of H2o below the point of freeze. It takes molecular motion to actually transform, maybe the environ. Rankinstein.

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#108
In reply to #91

Re: Frozen Pond: Newsletter Challenge (November 2011)

12/20/2011 5:39 AM

The way I understand it everything has molecular movement until it reaches absolute temperature.....-273°C.......where all molecular movement ceases.

That is unless they have changed that temperature in the last 40 odd years!!!

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#92

Re: Frozen Pond: Newsletter Challenge (November 2011)

12/01/2011 10:24 PM

In simple words, Water expands as it reaches 4 deg or lower and becomes less dense thereby making it possible for it to float on surface of water. This sheet of ice serves as an insulating sheet to warmer water below thereby sustaining fish below it. As fish is very sensitive to temperature changes among other factors they feel this change in temperature at once and move down to warmer deeper zones. If the water froze from below all life would be destroyed including the poor fish but Nature doesn't let this happen to conserve life below water.

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#94
In reply to #92

Re: Frozen Pond: Newsletter Challenge (November 2011)

12/02/2011 11:04 AM

With regard to density, what you wrote is total and complete rubbish.

Water is at its most dense at 4°C. Warmer or colder water than 4°C it is less dense and floats above the dense 4°C water.....

If you read here it is fully and correctly explained (Water density for dummies?):-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water#Density_of_water_and_ice

You will find this, I hope now all is clear and understood:-

The density of water is approximately one gram per cubic centimeter. More precisely, it is dependent on its temperature, but the relation is not linear and is unimodal rather than monotonic (see right-hand table). When cooled from room temperature liquid water becomes increasingly dense, just like other substances. But at approximately 4 °C, pure water reaches its maximum density. As it is cooled further, it expands to become less dense. This unusual negative thermal expansion is attributed to strong, orientation-dependent, intermolecular interactions and is also observed in molten silica.[19]

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#100
In reply to #92

Re: Frozen Pond: Newsletter Challenge (November 2011)

12/02/2011 8:38 PM

Some fish are resiant to this change, the 58c walmart. Rankinstein.

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#101

Re: Frozen Pond: Newsletter Challenge (November 2011)

12/03/2011 1:48 AM

The expansion near freezing reduces the water's density allowing it to float atop the warmer body of water prior to its transition to solid phase. Without the expansion the water would freeze from the bottom up and kill everything in a closed body of water or displace it down stream if not enclosed.

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#102
In reply to #101

Re: Frozen Pond: Newsletter Challenge (November 2011)

12/03/2011 5:10 AM

GA for a nice clear and correct comment.

I thought it wasvery easy to understand, especially after I posted the Wiki page, but it seems that many others here still do not understand exactly how it works.....

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#106

Re: Frozen Pond: Newsletter Challenge (November 2011)

12/19/2011 7:00 AM

Liquid water below C must have some more weird physical properties.

As temperature goes down, raindrops falling on a windshield or metal roof sound peculiar even before an ice kernel develops or the whole drops turn into hail.

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#107
In reply to #106

Re: Frozen Pond: Newsletter Challenge (November 2011)

12/20/2011 12:02 AM

this is the way sound is made

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#113

Re: Frozen Pond: Newsletter Challenge (November 2011)

01/04/2012 1:50 PM

Now wait a minute...

The answer has been posted. What kind of an answer is this for the question "Why is this fact important for the fish in a pond?"

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