UFOs, are they real

Good picture !

Please terminate this thread before people start to go missing. They may know and tell more than what you want to know. Archangel/ash ( wasp )

My humans are just soooo good.. bless 'em. They do try to talk cat. They've got most of the sounds right but they some times say the most ridiculous thing 'cos they havn't got the full nuances .

Mmmrrmp, ppprrrt, waoooow.

Fttttzzz

Suppose a human became totally fluent in dog-ese: The conversation would still be painfully constrained. They could discuss food, certainly, and running, and loud noises, but how could Fido begin to make Biped understand the thousand nuances of scent? Could Biped ever hope to explain reading, or money, or engineering? Fido might try to expound on eating grass and chasing cars; Biped might describe shampoo and NASCAR. How long could they remain civil to one another, do you suppose?

War would be inevitable!

Before we attempt to converse with aliens, maybe we should learn a lot more about them than we know about our dogs.

√

Is that √(null) ?

It was either a tick to show agreement, or the suggestion that Aurizon had reached the root of the problem.

This is not a light headed subject and it relates to the apparent intelligent of animals compared to humans.

When confronted with the possibility that dolphins or elephants are nearing human natural intelligence, in terms of problem solving abilities (which is to exclude symbolic-language and therefore the ability to pass accumulated knowledge through the generations), the surprised party usually asks something to the effect of: "Well, if they are as intelligent as humans, how come they never got to build houses and cars, or developed language and science?"

This is a legitimate, valid question, and it involves something called in ethology "organism's extended phenotypes".

The dolphin's intelligence evolved in particular venues revolving around the species particular environment and course of evolution, such, that never required the development of cars, aeroplanes or medicine. So was the elephant's. So was man's. Human intelligent revolved around man's history and environmental challenges in such a way that symbolic language became an essential tool to survival, in man's case, it was during the longest period of evolution, that of the Paleolithic epoch, during which man most of the time of constant migration suffered from hunger, except for weekly occasion of finding edible roots or animal scrap, or the occasional coordinated gathering for mob-raids to scare predators from their kill, butchering snatching the meat to immediately flee in an organised mobile protection formation.

For such tight coordination, the existing natural intelligence, took to symbolic language, first (currently thought) as a silent signalling form, not unlike today's deaf signalling language, ironically passed to other primates such as (Research subject) gorillas and chimps, and later (Currently estimated) at 30 to 40 thousand years ago, verbal, explicit, spoken, symbolic proto-languages, later developed to the 'modern' complex forms, to include technical, artistic, scientific, and slang vocabularies.

Dog-ese or parrot-ese reflects the animal's handling of it's given environment. Parrot's ability to accurately mimic other animal sounds is crucial to it's survival. Such is the Blue and Crested Jay's ability to mimic cats, foxes, mongoose, and a whole variety of predators and other birds.

Not many people know that the Jay is a very able mimic. The Israeli Crested Jay is as talented as any parrot around.

Since the creations of man's intelligence, meaning symbolic language, science, and the ability to pass accumulated knowledge through generations, is an integral and essential part of man's evolution and actual survival, it is considered, to my opinion rightly so, as integral part of it's natural form as it's ligaments and tendons, and so are called man's 'extended phenotype', just as so called the Hermit-Crab's borrowed shell.

According to modern linguistics (Chomsky), ethology (Dawkins) and anthropology (Mead), man's ability for structured symbolic language, is well imprinted in it's DNA. The is no reason why other animals would be considered otherwise concerning their ritualistic or communicational abilities.

When done for long enough period, it's an indication that it's not an aberration, a freak mutation, but an interaction of many genes to be externally expressed.

Read Full Report

Date: July 6, 2007

Contacts: Paul Jackson

Michelle Strikowsky

Office of News and Public Information

202-334-2138; e-mail <news@nas.edu>

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Life Elsewhere in Solar System Could Be Different From Life as We Know It

WASHINGTON -- The search for life elsewhere in the solar system and beyond should include efforts to detect what scientists sometimes refer to as "weird" life -- that is, life with an alternative biochemistry to that of life on Earth -- says a new report from the National Research Council. The committee that wrote the report found that the fundamental requirements for life as we generally know it -- a liquid water biosolvent, carbon-based metabolism, molecular system capable of evolution, and the ability to exchange energy with the environment -- are not the only ways to support phenomena recognized as life. "Our investigation made clear that life is possible in forms different than those on Earth," said committee chair John Baross, professor of oceanography at the University of Washington, Seattle.

The report emphasizes that "no discovery that we can make in our exploration of the solar system would have greater impact on our view of our position in the cosmos, or be more inspiring, than the discovery of an alien life form, even a primitive one. At the same time, it is clear that nothing would be more tragic in the American exploration of space than to encounter alien life without recognizing it."

Continue here.

Jules

URGENT !

See Full Report

FOR INSTANT RELEASE

- Life outside the universe may call for different laws of physics as we know it.

- Life in backward motion of time may totally overwhelm the principle of cause and effect.

- Life other than the one we know may very well have different consequential probability.

- Life is not the only form of existence as we know it.

- Existence is not the only form of entities to materialise.

Etc, etc, etc

WTF...

Agreed! What's next, sifting through dust on Mars to find a microbe that will respond to a stimuli test?

Yup...that's probably as exciting as it will get.

How about finding ALL the life-forms on this planet first? It may then be used as a guide to where and how to locate life.

Recent finds within the oceans suggest that there may be twice the amount of life we currently know about. And then there are viruses.....

Hi GM1964,

Concerning the little virus:

"It has been argued extensively whether viruses are living organisms. Most virologists consider them non-living, as they do not meet all the criteria of the generally accepted definition of life. They do not respond to changes in the environment, which is a trait among living organisms."

However, we do have "wet alife is artificial life created in vitro as opposed to the normally implied in silico when using the broader term alife. Generally wet alife involves experiments with chemical substrates in water or another solvent (which is where the "wet" in "wet alife" comes from)."

I guess the question is has anyone, so far, created a viable "alife" (Egor)?

And no, I don't consider the Roomba to be "alife". Just in case you were thinking...

Maybe a wet/dry version might qualify, might be useful too.

Hi John,

I suppose that makes it even worse - we can't even decide what constitutes life, but we'll go look for it anyway!

Eureka! I've got it!

What with the space station being coed, it's only a matter of time before a child will be born aboard it. Now this child, not having been born on earth, could be our very first genuine alien. Think about it. Could we legitimately call it an earthling? If we did, what nationality would it be? I guess at the moment of birth, whatever country the station was over could be its country of origin. But then what if the moment of birth occured over the Pacific ocean?

Going further, when bases are established on Mars, those inevitable children will become our first Martians. So we will have created our very own aliens.

Are you listening Jules?

There is a precedent here - Children born mid-flight have their place of birth registered as a map reference/altitude.

Occam:

Did any microbe sifted through Mars' dust respond to a stimuli test?

Mr Killjoy:

What would it take, here on earth, for people to stop aiming for the next galaxy's habitants, or the afterlife beyond this present reality, or the time before creation, to finally start taking care of business, here, on earth's ecology, in this very current reality?

The microbes will doubtless be less intransigent than humans...and that is probably the attraction.

Hey,

It would probably take a global catastrophe. We may not dare to say it, or even think of it, but we are actually governed by an evil spirit we call "Human Initiative".

Don't take my word for it. Look at history and judge for yourself.

Boy, are we naive!

I have to concur, only I don't call it "Human Initiative".

Don't ask me what I call it.

Each to their own.

We are all people, we all experience reality, and we call it what we may.

That would make sense.

Are you sure that this is you home planet and your not an Alien?

Why Alien?

Because I'm not indifferent to the prospects and future survival of life here?

Yes.

That would cast a very dark shade on human nature.

But what if, as mentioned above, man's carelessness of the natural environment, is of being in extreme despair, under the cruel abuse of something which I personally cannot name, but is evidently, clearly, insane, and which is at the core of the common sense leading people to such cruelty and carelessness to other living things, including other people.

It all points to this insanity as culprit , in the form of deep animosity to life itself, to the living. Otherwise, nothing would make any sense at all.

Only Something which is truly alien to life, would express and promote such animosity to life.

Perhaps Fromm can help.

Ignoring the popular understanding of the word , there may be deeper problems though.

It's too late on the road to doom to be concerned about terminology or interpretation. If you have children, stand up and be counted.

There is no such thing as 'doom' unless you are deterministic in thought. The hope is not in some super-natural entity to redeem us from our sins, but instead, with each one of us, taking care of their immediate bit around them.

I'm aware I cannot change the world, so I do my best to change myself for the better, first and foremost in the most important front, where it really counts: in my own mind.

I listen to reason, not to whim. This means that I listen to reason, not to voices. I weave my thoughts intertwined with good, compassionate intention, instead of just following blindly to any whimsical thread of thought which I cannot verify it's intention, or origin.

If madness starts on the inside, I try to regime my mind, not blindly follow it's any string on the "teleprinter' so-to-speak.

Man is supposed to be in charge of himself and be 'counted' as you said, to the consequence of his deeds. This is a two-edge blade. Think of it.

Fromm was a wanker, justifying evil by the soft mentions of niceties in hell. Wilson is another "Diplomat" who avoids calling thing by their proper name. Two of a kind.

The bitter truth is that nobody dares to touch the naked flame, in fear of their own bread and butter, making it another form of blissed ignorance or worse yet. Let's face it: we are all afraid of the beast which we crowned to rob us of our instincts and emotions, to become a herd of zombie-robots.

"Dictators ride to and fro' upon the backs of tigers, which they dare not dismount". Winston Chruchhill

And:

"What rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlem to be born". William Butler Yeats

As Yuval says, (paraphrasing) We're all in a local stewpot where "Mans inhumanity to man" seems to prevail,the best thing we can do is to make ourselves the best we can be.

Put another way: The greatest thing you can do in life is that which costs you the most!

Ahh, but never despair. We'll get there somehow. That is, if our children don't drive us nuts first, or before they're grown with children of their own to worry about.

-John

"...That is, if our children don't drive us nuts first, or before they're grown with children of their own to worry about...."

But Johnjohn, that's exactly what it revolves around:

Each generation sums the wisdom and resulting reality of it's predecessors, and accordingly, drive their parents nuts.

In urge to press for the required change.

Haven't we done so in our youth?

Yeah, you're right, but when you're in the thick of it it's sometimes hard to realize. I just heard on the news that one of the leading causes of auto accidents among teenagers is, not only, talking on cell phones, but, get this: text messaging while driving! Now, I ask you, what wisdom and resulting reality are they summing and imparting?

Your point is well taken as I too, did my part in trying to drive my parents over the proverbial edge. We should take heed, however, in the middle stage of "once a man, twice a child" to "treat your parents well" as Peter, Paul, and Mary once uttered.

hmm

Oops! I must have had PP&M on the brain! I was humming "Where have all the flowers gone" while typing "Teach your Children". My dyslexia sometimes extends beyond mere letters. Forgive me CS&N.

Anyway, the quote I made from the CS&N tune still stands.

-John

I have absolutely no philia for roaches! Nor spiders or beetles. I usually associate roaches with Franz Kafka.

I don't know if this is back on thread or not...many people are talking about pole shifts.

Is the year 2012 another Y2K (much ado about not much) or are we in for pole shifts, solar storms, and more disaster?

Let the sand rest and settle at the bottom of the pond Girl, to attract a fresh school of curious fish....

I don't think the subject is critical, they'll have a go at anything to promote their agenda with, if I got anything right in this here establishment.

Some threads only mature beyond post 250 or so, and get really hot around 850 to 900, if past experience is to take example of

Yes, Yuval, you are right. I agree that the threads do get pretty hot around 850 and this one has not had a dull moment, nor did the last thread.

I was hoping someone would start up about 2012 in this thread as there's lot's of UFO agenda to be had, but if you think it's better saved for future discussion, that works for me.

Jules, its been discussed around here before. Still a faxcinating topic though. I, for one, would like to probe it further. Meanwhile, take a look at europium's post here.

-John

That's a comprehensive list. I wonder about his *opinion* on 2012. Science or fiction?

Just for a slightly different twist... I plugged Dec 21/22, 2012 into Starrynight Pro Plus. It allows me to go to any point on the planet and watch the sky in real or accelerated time.

So, I positioned myself on the Yucatan Peninsula (where the date came from), and moved the sky to 2012. Starrynight has a huge database of all sorts of stuff in the sky, however, I noticed nothing out of the ordinary... No comets, meteor showers, planet alignments, nothing.

While this is not the end-all-be-all word regarding that night in 2012. It at least defuses anything that is currently known.

That's a great idea! I have never thought of using astronomy (in that manner) to visit the future. Does Starrynight cover solar events too?

Jules

It covers the 11 and 22 year sunspot cycles, and it covers eclipses. Other than that, we're talking voodoo!!!

Also, every time you start it up, it goes to the internet to update its database. So, for instance, you'll see the ISS moving across the screen. If the Shuttle is up, then you'll see the ISS and the Shuttle stuck together, moving across the screen. Also, all the damn Iridium satellites.

I see the software is available for sale...I haven't checked the price yet. Since I bought all these Julian May and UFO books due to the blog now I have to check my pocketbook!

Jules

If you're interested, and you have a "go-to" telescope, you can hook your computer together with your scope. Check the sky on Starrynight, see something that might be interesting, click on it, and your scope will slew to the exact position. Now that's cool!!!

Hi vermin,

That's way cool!

Question: Is what you see on Starrynight a real time image, or, if not, what's the refresh rate? In other words will I see a more up to date image on my telescope than what I see on Starrynight?

-John

It does real time or faster. By default it does real time. One feature that I like a lot is the ability to get rid of the horizon so that you can see both above and below the horizon line.

I'll see if I can get a screen capture. Hold on...

I hope you can zoom into it. I had to step on it pretty hard to get it through me poor we 56 kbps modem in any reasonable length of time. If zoom in looks fuzzy, that's why. The screen capture was crystal on my 26" digital monitor!!!

By the way, I turned on the labeling and constellations just for show.

I have a bit of software called 'Cybersky' which I just ran on 2012. I didn't go as far as checking Yucatan, but there wasn't much to see from London. I've barely used this stuff before, so I'm hoping the green squares that flagged certain space objects is only comets or something and not the Borg !

europiums link on magnetic shift isn't done by halves. My take on the whole thing is that the interior of the Earth is a highly complex bi-stable system. All the contributing factors cause a magnetic reversal to happen with regularity(in a Geological time scale that is). The nearest comparison to the flip I can think of is holding a playing card between you fingers and gradually squeezing- eventually it suddenly 'pops' to one side. The analogy breaks down when describing how it gets back to being able to flip the other way, but as I said there's a complex thermal system underneath the Earth's surface. It probably compares to weather prediction - you know there's a monsoon coming in any given year, but you can't state precisely what causes it and which day it will occur on.

The TV show Horizon ran a good program on it all a couple of years ago. Some really neat animations showed where magnetic variations are, and how the move. Individual 'hot-spots' of intensity swell and reduce in size, as well as moving slightly about a general location. Discovering the magnetic reversals that are seen in strips either sides of the mid-Atlantic ridge was a key component in proving the validity of Plate Tectonics.

I'm not convinced that current knowledge of solar flares is enough to attribute all this to it as a major factor. The Earth is a bit like a spherical boiler with continents acting as insulators. Areas of orogony ( OK 'mountain building' , the proper word just sounds funnier) and plate divergence complicate the thermal model.

That's all a bit elsewhere I guess. So lets have a wee bit of fun vermin. Do you want to agree on an exact time, date, and place to view the sky in 2012 ? My software that fell out of a kiddies telescope versus Starry-night ! There's some online telescope resources I think. Maybe we could all find an adjustable sky chart and see what they all say. It would almost qualify as a serious investigation. The world got to panic over Y2K , we could have the great CR4 Y2-12 version.

I optimised the picture to see some detail. It looks like constellation-plots at a given, selected spot.

Is the bright spot in the rectangle a photo-glare of the monitor?

No. I set the direction due West. That's the Sun, and the Dark thing just right of it is the Moon. If you check out the horizon line you can see that it is still daylight, around 7:00 PM, DLST. Normally this view would just be bright, blue sky, but the program allows you to turn off daylight.

So, the program would render a large haze area around a luminous object.

I couldn't tell because I ripped the photo from the post, which reduces the original's resolution, to about this much:

I'm sure your original is much sharper

It really depends on how bright it is in the sky. Of course, what you see is the "day sky" with the Sun's affect removed. Objects are for the most part rendered as you would see them in a really clear night sky. Where things are too faint to be seen by the human eye under any conditions, there's usually a marker of some sort. Also, you can zoom all the way to another galaxy if you wish; and it will move across the sky in real time (if you like).

For comparison, see the Milky Way across the bottom and up the left. This is how it renders what you would see outside.

So, basically, it's like an educated sky viewer from earth, to plot and label star constellations.

How do you set the system to display relative and absolute luminance, to compensate for gaps in distance-levels? Like, say, that of a very bright but far star, near a faint but near star, for instance?

Does it show the star's color, indicative of surface temperature? Like, our sun is yellow (6200 kelvin, and faint illuminator) Sirius is blue (22,400 K and very bright illuminator). Sirius is also a twin in a binary system.

No, it's pretty much a state-of-the-art astronomy program. Has all sorts of bells and whistles. You can view the sky from any location in known space, move the sky around either according to specified rates, or you can grab it with the mouse and move just about anywhere. A whole bunch more stuff. Go out and Google on Starry Night or the company name Imaginova. I have Starry Night Pro Plus, version 5. I have an update to version 6, but I'll have to set up a remove drive to install it.

Yup. Just seen their site. Impressive bunch of features. I'd say 250 bucks of all-dancing bells and whistles.

So, how do you rip those impressing nebula scenes into your photo albums?

vermin, I can't fit my picture with yours. I used Belize as a location (It should be close enough to Yucatan) with 21st/22nd 2012. You can see the long snaky Hydra , but it's about 90 degrees ccw rotationally wrong ! Am I missing something ?

What am I doing wrong here (apart from even trying it). I can adjust a whole bunch of parameters if need be - detail time etc

It kind of looks like your sky is sideways. Isn't that curved, yellow line, the horizon? If so, then you need to rotate it 90° counter-clock wise. If not the horizon, the plain of the ecliptic?

By the way, the picture I'm showing in my photo is not the 2012 sky. I just started the program at my home location on Friday, and pointed the direction to the West, which is what I see out my window.

LMAO - I completely misunderstood you, thinking the picture was what you got from your program based on Yuc.... well you know. I don't have a clue what I'm doing with my bit of cheapo software as I've never used it before and know nothing of astronomy. This was a nice excuse to try it. Like the songs all say, I'm going to California now to look out of your window.

Celestia is free and open-source

Thanks for the link, Yuval, I'm downloading the software.

Jules

It's also an animation machine which allows you to plot space-travel routes, and document the 3d movement on *.avi video file;

You can slow or accelerate the clock to see the celestial movements at any speed you like, roll the clock forward or back, to see future and past constellations and positions;

You can zoom-in to view (in 3d) objects as small as asteroids a few miles across, or zoom out to look at the whole galaxy;

You can mark celestial orbits in freeze or while in movement

It also has links for add-on modules (such as the 'video capture script' - it is an open-source freeware) and community forums and data-update from Hubble and other NASA sources.

The more I tweaked with it and tried it's functions , the more I discovered, and the more I was surprised.

Look at the community links to install the different add-ons scripts applets and utilities it has:

Right-click-and-drag rotates the 'eye' around an object;

Left-click-and-drag pans the 'eye' around across an area;

Ctrl/mouse-roller (or mouse up/down) is the zoom;

File/Open Script/demo.cel- is a written script which can run a sample plot of a demo-tour around the solar system, animated in 3d, and captured as script.

You can plot your own tours, and capture it on video

Hi Jules - These posts keep getting better and better all the time. Most are very revelent, while some are -well "off the wall". The CR4 "UFO" friends have expressed a very wide variety of thoughts regarding the UFO / Extraterrestrial subjects. Last night Larry King had several guests on his show including "Buzz" Aldrin 2nd man on the moon. There was a panel of UFO experts and skeptics as well as the ex-Govt of Arizona. The discussion was very wide and had some excellent points regarding the Roswell crash in 1947. I TVOed a program that Bryant Gumbel narrated that has new information regarding the Roswell crash. I have always been a believer that the truth would come out even if it took over 60 years to have it happen. When scientists such as Warner Van Braun talk of a saucer type vehicle and alien beings at the crash site in Roswell in 47. He even goes on to say one alien was still alive when he was called to investigate the crash by the US Govt. The crash evidence and beings were taken by a B-28ST (special transport) to a highly secure special US Army Air Corps base. I believe the program was on the SciFi channel around the 11th of July or thereabouts. Check out the website of Mufon at www.mufon.com there is a lot of Roswell and other UFO information there as well. Another point - there are men in black out there and they do work for the US Govt in their "dark unspecified areas" and if you become vocal or have a real positive sighting or even make to many special inquires into the UFO / Extraterrestrial subject matter.. Rest assured YOU will be on their "Visit" list and they will have their black cheap suits, black cheap sunglasses and black cheap wingtip shoes and worst of all have white - yes white socks on.. I personally regard them as a cheap joke, even though they had quite a heated discussion with me several years ago because I enquired into the death of a very close friend that worked at area 51 - WHAT,s that you say - there is no area 51 or Groom Lake base !! BEEEEEEP !!! wrong answer you lose ! Anyway they were not very happy with what I told them. especially when I told them to get a real job and leave taxpayers like me alone. After seeing the "Men in Black " movie I expected to get zapped like they did to everyone in the movie. I told one of them that if he pulled a pen out of his pocket I would zap him with my dust buster - no humor at all from those guys. They left in a leased "Black" SUV with white govt plates. The plate id numbers were pretty much un-readable and I wish I had a camera to take their picture and picture of their vehicle. If ever they visit me again - rest assured I will get some picture evidence of them somehow. Am I a nut-case - no! Just a regular person that has seen to much and have had the privilege of knowing someone that saw to much and we all got caught up in the Govt BS if you will. Anyone else out there that has been in a similar situation or know someone who has?? Keep the discussion going Jules - you really opened up a wide range of discussion that will probably become monitored soon, if it hasn't been monitored already - Right MIB guys !!! I guess I will probably have a visit real soon, Oh well ! - I will keep the coffee hot or whatever they drink !!

Hi airmotorguy007,

I saw about half of the program you refer to, and yes, it was on SciFi channel.

The question I've always had about the Roswell/Area 51 scenario and the so-called government secrecy surrounding it is WHY in the world would "they" want to keep it so tightly under wraps and keep it totally isolated? Seems to me like "they" would encourage the world's scientists to examine whatever they have, including corpes if they have them, etc. What sense does it make to keep it away from everyone, especially to the extent of having MIB pay these little visits to folks who get a little too close or ask too many questions? Looks to me like the world could only benefit from having access to such artifacts and data.

I'm not questioning your own experiences in this area but to me the whole thing seems just a little too cartoonish. Why, do you think, your visitors seemed to take their accoutrement directly from the movie; MIB? Or was it possibly the other way around and, if it was, why didn't "they" persuade the movie producers to cease and desist?

I'm an optimist and would love to see evidence of ET visitors, but something about this just makes no sense!

-John

I totally agree with you about having the truth told to the people just as it is. I think sometimes the high ranking govt officials treat things like Roswell as their own private finds and only want to show and tell things to their political and govt cronies. They have a tendency to keep things tight and close. My involvement was due to having a very good childhood friend work in an area where real cool and experimental flying "machines: are designed and flown. I just asked to many questions and wrote to many letters as did his wife and they scared the living hell out of her. She had a very bad feeling that something might happen to her and her family if she continued to make inquires. She asked me to back off and I did. We still remain friends today and only discuss this matter when we have a private moment to talk. It has been over 15 years now and believe me she still looks behind her. For the first several years some funny things happened to her car and she had several near accidents that I believe were scare tactics. You can't fight these agencies they have a mind of their own and the funding of our taxpayer money to use against anyone with the guts to question them. Me - I don't scare easy and I expect one day they will pay me a little visit as I really would like to push my friends death further. Out of respect to his family I won't push the issue. Maybe someday all this secret crap will come to light. We need more thinkers like us and Jules to get the thought processes to a higher level. I believe there are some true high level CR4 people that have more to offer this discussion than they want to put forth. Great comments JohnJohn.. Keep pushing the envelope - nothing is scared anymore with this issue..

Going out on a limb here, I'll answer your question, John. This may sound far-fetched to some, so please keep in mind it is only my opinion, and does not reflect upon GlobalSpec.

Airmotor mentioned something that is at the heart of why I started this thread: He mentioned research into incredible flying machines that I presume are not planes, helicoptors or satellites.

When was the last time humankind was allowed to benefit from free information? Look at Royal Rife and Nicola Tesla, to name a few of many inventors. What happened to their inventions during their lifetimes? Perhaps because they offered free information, they were not successful. It has been stated that their inventions were blocked by those who sought to make a profit.

Let's look at our esteemed Thomas Edison...from Wiki:

Edison's true success, like his friend Henry Ford, was in his ability to maximize profits through establishment of mass-production systems and intellectual property rights. This dampened the success of less profitable work by others who were focused on inventing longer-lasting high-efficiency technology.

Nothing against Edison, he just followed smart business practices that work just as well today.

We are rats in a cage until we can open the gate and get out, by sharing information and helping each other ... I'm a firm believer that the meek and humble shall inherit the earth (after another nuclear war), if you consider cockroaches and algae meek and humble.

Until the smartest, strongest mammals with large brains and multiple digits become peacemakers, all things that can be kept secret will be kept secret. It is easier to control a society that believes it is a free society and not being controlled. War and fear are not the answer to the world's ills.

Speaking of supporting the troops, I'm saying that as the daughter of a 27 year soldier who served five tours overseas in Korea and Viet Nam. I'm saying that as the ex-wife and still friend of a Colonel in the Special Forces who's currently serving "over there." I lived next to Ft Sill OK where the bombs going off every day rattled the windows of my mother's house. As a child, I used to hike in the brush and bring home live ammunition, not realizing it would blow my face off.

On a brighter, more positive note, looking at this brilliant software that Yuval has so kindly provided us access to, I have hope for humankind. There are many within the world who do believe in freedom, including sharing open source, free information.

It's all about who owns the information, who shares the information, and who is allowed to live long enough, without being afraid of getting harassed, to grow the information into something stronger with added mass.

Combine that with the hundredth monkey effect, and we can change the direction of the world. We the priviledged few with computers, houses, cars, food and medical care are the only ones who can effect change, as those stricken by poverty in third world countries, as has been noted here already, are very busy just staying alive.

That's my rant for the day.

Jules

Exciting projects, no doubt. Exciting but not as exotic as some may presume. When the F-117 and then the B2 first appeared, they looked alien, in the sense that their design was radical, on many facets.

From here to saying that they utilised extraterrestrial technology in their development is showing some (understandable) technological and historical ignorance.

The Lockheed F-117, is a descendant to a long and wonderful design tradition by the company's celebrated team, headed by Kelly Johnson, their aeronautics engineering guru,who's previous creations included the first Ram-jet drive (only now presumably used in the secret Aurora project, some fifty years after it's invention), the first Vectored thrust (used only now in the X35 advanced project for the first time, some fifty years after it's invention), the highest flying jet, the fastest (to this day) jet, itself an alien looking beast made of Titanium, to name just a few

. Lockheed SR-71

B-2 relied on a long, painstaking, coherent research by Northrop, which led to this technological masterpiece. The radical looking design of the B2, is the last of a long research venue taken ever since the forties and fifties, which roots are in the second world war.

Exciting, yes. Extraterrestrial? Give's a break here...

Hard work seem today, well, extraterrestrial, I'll give you that.

Yuval,

Great pics! Thanks for posting them. BTW, who said anything about extraterrestrial as in alien-built technology? C'mon! There's no A in the acronym posted here.

Perhaps there is more to this thread than meets the eye...inference is all part of the game.

Jules

No, Girl, Not you. But let's face it: It's the most popular hype around for the last 20 years by now (coincidental with the first appearance of Lockheed F-117?...). Lately, extraterrestrial design features associated with rumors about the Aurora project.

Scrap remains of the German Horten Ho 229 aircraft, 1944

That thing looks like a flying shark!

My personal belief is that development all boils down to funding and these projects are prohibitively expensive to develop and fly.

My stepson is in the Coast Guard. He tells us stories about how the older pilots don't get to fly the newer, experimental jets, only the younger pilots with very few hours in the air.

We all know why that happens...the younger guys are cheaper by the dozen.

Jules

This German aircraft, the world's first Jet Fighter, Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe (1941), was actually called "The Flying Shark".

Here's why:

"...cheaper by the dozen..."

The training cost for air-crews is so expensive, that the later accumulation of flight-hours, is considered some form of return, on the initial investment of training. Flight-hours serve as an equivalent of piloting experience, and are treated as such by both the pilot community, and the industry employers.

When an experimental craft goes fakakte, it's young, inexperienced pilot is a cheaper loss (hardware included) than the loss of an ace.

It's called "Bean-Counter's Logic"

Alien Contact Came
In 1952 - Author
By Mannix Porterfield
Register-Herald Reporter
7-15-7 Sci-fi buffs flocked to a fantasy film in 1984 bearing a title prediction that 2010 would be the year earthlings make contact with aliens. Actually, contact has come, and it was less than friendly, says one UFO researcher. Three decades earlier, in fact, back in 1952, just five years after the famed Roswell incident, the American military engaged a convoy of alien aircraft with orders to destroy them in a pitched air battle right off the Atlantic Coast, says Frank Feschino, author of "The Flatwoods Monster," a phenomenon that rocked a tiny West Virginia hamlet that year. An illustrator and writer, Feschino has produced a follow-up book, this one titled "Shoot Them Down," an effort produced after years of painstaking research of the U.S. Air Force's once-classified files on unidentified flying saucers and digesting countless magazine articles on the matter. His years of exhaustive study have convinced Feschino that American jet fighters did indeed make contact - at the point of their guns. "Shoot Them Down" draws its name from orders Feschino says President Truman gave military commanders while an American public was growing increasingly jittery over coast-to-coast UFO sightings. Two years earlier, Truman had remarked at a news conference, "I can assure you that flying saucers, given that they exist, are not constructed by any power on earth." "There are tons of documents right there, intelligence reports, talking about pilots chasing these things, going after them," Feschino said, citing the once-hidden reports on the Air Force's so-called Project Blue Book. "That's when it hit the fan, and the government stepped up. That is when they had to simmer the whole country down. The whole country was in an uproar. Everybody was panicking. The job of the government is to keep things under control, and they couldn't let the country panic." UFOs were buzzing the entire country that year, "and a good chunk of them were over military installations, and power plants, like Oak Ridge," the author says. Feschino pulls his theory largely from the writings of Air Force Capt. Edward Ruppelt, a decorated World War II veteran, recalled to duty when hostilities erupted in Korea. Roswell might stand out as the mother of all UFO stories, but 1952 was the most prolific year by far for aircraft sightings - by one account, some 30,000 alone in the United States, many of them reported in local newspapers around the country. Craft ranged from discs to round balls to elongated, cigar-shaped ships, the Port Orange, Fla., resident said. "Capt. Ruppelt was dropping clues throughout his book," Feschino said. "And that's the premise of my book. During that time of 1952 we had the highest amount of sightings." In a book he wrote, Ruppelt said "other assorted historians have pointed out that normally the UFOs are peaceful," but he alluded to a chase in which one of two pilots engaging unidentified aircraft perished. "They just weren't ready to be observed closely," he wrote. "If the Air Force hadn't slapped down the security lid, these writers might not have reached this conclusion (about peaceful aliens). There have been other and more lurid duels of death. That's what everybody missed." Feschino flatly says the Air Force took on alien aircraft just off the coast with orders to destroy them in a move to pacify a public growing ever restless over bizarre sightings. In the battle, apparently one craft hobbled back inland, resting on a knoll in a West Virginia community known as Flatwoods. And it was there on Sept. 12 a group of boys, accompanied by some adults, scampered up the hillside and saw a metallic, 12-foot object emitting a sulfuric odor. Locals dubbed it "the Flatwoods Monster." "I have no idea who they were," Feschino said. Based on his interviews with some 200 denizens of Flatwoods, however, the author believes the aliens remain interested in rural West Virginia. "There are people in West Virginia who have been seeing UFOs for the past 50 years, and there are key locations where they are being seen - Wheeling, Huntington, and quite a few south of Charleston, around Cabin Creek, even down in the Beckley area," he said. Feschino is a headliner for a Sept. 7-8 UFO summit in Charleston, organized by promoter Larry Bailey. Joining him will be Freddie May, a witness to the Flatwoods incident, and nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman, considered the leading UFO researcher in the world. Friedman has appeared on numerous cable TV shows with his belief that extraterrestrials are frequent flyers to planet Earth. At the two-day gathering, Feschino plans to sell his new book, featuring a special, limited edition cover for West Virginia consumers. At a book-signing in Tamarack, the author was approached by an aging woman after the crowd of buyers began to disperse. "She tugged on my shirt and leaned up to my ear and said, 'We're still seeing those things up here all the time,'" the author said.

At least today, the F-16 seems like the hight of cool. When they fly over, everyone looks skyward and goes "Ooooooo!" Interesting to think that the F-16 first hit the drafting board in 1963! "Yes, advanced weapons systems do take that long to develop, Virginia."

I remember when the F-16 first got to Israel, and people heard it was 'made of plastic' (composites) and a TV reporter asked a IAF official "Isn't plastic a little weak to build a jet fighter with" the official said "Much, much tougher than aluminum"

Nice post Jules.

I fully understand the profit/greed thing that you allude to but to keep such priceless data and artifacts so secret for so long just doesn't fit that scenario. Don't you think that if events surrounding Roswell/Area 51 really happened, that world governments (Russia, China, etc.) would have been pursuing all that stuff with a fervor? Would the so-called MIB have visited them with threats of mayhem? Come on folks!

No one has yet brought up all the unexplained sightings around the UFO hotspot; Gulf Breeze, Florida.These sightings have been going on since 1987.

An excerpt from the link says "large shiny discs with panels of lights revolving on the underside, or odd lights darting back and forth in the sky at impossible speeds. Locals regularly report large (an average of 26 feet in diameter), burned circles in their residential pastures." Personally, I believe there have been some things sighted that cannot be attributed to "weather balloons" or to any other reasonable explanations. Too many commercial pilots and other reputable people have witnessed things that seem to defy the known laws of physics. On this matter I remain an optimist but still an agnostic.

As you, Yuval and others have pointed out, there's much work to be done on our own little hot rock. I'm not so sure that we can be equated to rats in a cage though. Perhaps some portion of humanity; those of the mediocre persuasion, but by and large, there's are many of us, you and I included, that have a greater vision of what is and what will be. Lets roll!

Here are some of the best UFO photos.

-John

Wow, you go John!

I am especially fascinated by this: http://www.ufocasebook.com/labaulefrance1982.jpg

and this one I have personally seen....many times.

http://www.ufocasebook.com/newjersey1984large.jpgLhttp://www.ufocasebook.com/labaulefrance1982.jpgaBaule, France, 1982.

In our ongoing quest let us always be on guard against enemies that would create stable strangelets.

In addition, antimatter just might cut our journey short if we relax, even for a moment.

But I digress Jules, so back to the topic at hand; governmental cover ups: "Some claim that UFO's are made by extra terrestrial beings for purposes which are covered up by the government, but they are probably made by highly trained experts in military bases. When one world dictatorship comes, leaders may use UFO's to cover up their schemes, and they may claim the influence of extra terrestrial help in peace issues to cloud the real issues. This will deceive the public into accepting their plans".

I wonder if this man predicted what would supposedly happen at Roswell?

-John

John, you've covered a lot of ground here. Do you feel that Nostradamus accurately predicted the end of the world as we know it?

I wonder if everything is set into motion already, or if there's another solution in sight.

Jules

Quit holding the Christian Revelation line. It's our bullshit. We accepted it way back at the Nicene council. It doesn't affect everyone in the world.

What makes you think that our version of the end of times is any more real than the Buddhists, Muslims, or anyone else?!

If I were you, I'd be more concerned on the capabilities of Homo Sapien to make real peace than wondering whether Armageddon is just over the hill.

Hey, who's quoting Revelations here?

Most indiginous peoples of the world have predicted some sort of "Armageddon." And besides, we don't need much help in predicting our own demise, just look at the news every day. Between wars, sickness, lack of clean water, nukes and environmental collapse, it's obvious to me that those dear cockroaches are gaining on us in physiological superiority.

I am very interested in peace, as evidenced by all of my posts. Most folks here are aware that fear and anger will get us nowhere. It is admittedly very interesting to me to see that our ancestors, including old Nostra, saw many things way back deep down in the ether.

Jules

"...Most indigenous peoples of the world have predicted some sort of "Armageddon."..."

Looking at the level of insanity so deeply embedded and intertwined in human relations, be it community to individual (social pressure, strict social or religious etiquette), community to community (Tribal or national warfare, economic and trade warfare) and there's no wonder why people, even in most ancient or primitive societies, take to visualise the inevitable consequence, only do it on a grand scale, to drive a point to extreme, or to stress it as prophecy.

Here in America, there are a lot of Evangelical Christians, saying it's the end times because of involvement in the Middle East.

There just seem so many people are wishing for the end times that creeps me out!!!

Also, our President has made reference to same. That really creeps me out!!!

Well, at least the Evangelicals are not ambiguous about ther preference in the middle east, something no-one can say about the rest of the doom seekers, for whom the whole of humanity is sometimes the target.

Presidents and politics in general, getting into this doom scene, is indeed creepy and should red alert us all, only no one gives a rat's ass, as long as it's not on their door-step like gas or commodity prices and availability. People simply don't care enough to do something about it.

Totally agree with everything you guys said, and especially on getting creeped out. Not giving into fear is a daily effort and struggle.

Jules

Regarding the case of the have and have-nots of the world. It did not just shake out this way. I suggest you do some research on the Strategic Defence Initiative written in the early 1950's. You may be surprised.

Hey vermin,

All the references to SDI that I find refer to Ronald Reagan's 1983 plan.

Where's the 1950's version?

-John

They're out there, you just have to dig for them. They're not very flattering in regards to the US.

John, This, I think, is on a different context. The fifties were all about scientific innovation regarding military arms-race with the Soviets, learning the lesson the Germans gave them in WW2 regarding scientific military advance, at a time both (US/USSR)parties strive to reach a critical decisive advantage.

This was way before the 'balanced' M.A.D stand-off of the late seventies, which Reagan tried to overcome, capitalising on the economic gap between the two, with aim build a military gap using the economic gap, as a catalyst.

It was more of a jive than it was substance, but it worked, and worsened the Soviet economics to a point, that in the late eighties, the whole Soviet block of nations, was swamped by civil unrest due to lack of commodities, until 'Perestroyka' was declared there, as the first crack, to lead to the eventual fissure of crumbling of the Soviet system.

In the fifties the 'sky was the limit', while in the seventies 'the field was saturated' and both powers were at the pinnacle of their scientific and military abilities.

Trying to look for a fifties' version of the SDI, is taking it out of proper context in the sense of reversing cause and effect. The real application of the SDI set of attempts, can be seen in the technological gap created between the Iraqis and the Americans in 'Desert Storm' later dubbed "The Video Game War".

Remember the 'Taito' version of "Space invaders"? Well, it was probably the drip to open the flood.

You may ask where I find such wise-ass connection, and I'll tell you that the video game industry and the advanced guided munition industries, fed each other for real, practically and conceptually for twenty odd years to allow this to happen, as fantastic and as unreal as it may seem.

"...Another (example) can be seen in the large scale industrial reverse-engineering from the video-game industry to the advanced guided munition (military) industry, both feeding each other with ideas and techniques: The military feeding the game industry with future concepts, and the game feeding military builders with actual ergonomic algorithmic and programming techniques..." if you don't my quoting myself - there

Ask anyone of any significance, from either industry, and see for yourself. I recall talking to electronics engineer who openly admitted of ripping off circuit functions ans software bits from arcade circuitry, for prototyping some idea-proofing of some military-oriented circuitry, during the late eighties.

I promised myself that I would try to not stir up or provide an avenue for our govt "Big Ears and Eyes" to be able to grab a solid handle on any information that could or would lead them back down the trail to any one of us. I have followed and re-searched all the information that was given me by my now deceased friend. He left behind a trunk of valuable paperwork and documentary sketches, drawings and pictures - yes pictures - taken with a miniature camera of the type used by spies during the cold war. I examined all he had to offer and was told that this pile of data was only about 25% of what he had stashed away, unfortunately he died in a car accident when his brakes failed on the brand new car he had just purchased and did not even have 1000 miles on it yet. It was very strange to see some of the pictures of the accident site and all the "Fluid" that left a trail for about a quarter of a mile ?? Straight stretch of highway - a new car that had the new differential braking system that prevents wheel lockup in case of lose of brake fluid or master cylinder failure. This car which cost a ton of money had the latest and greatest of things on it. It sure was strange that some eye witnesses saw two people around his car at the restaurant he had stopped at - with on dressed in a dark suit actually under his car doing something. All this was reported and when the final accident report was given to his wife - it read failure of the brakes and his alcohol content was well over the legal Nevada driving limit. My friend was a true Christian man who never drank anything stronger than soda. That is where the reports stopped and his family received a very large financial settlement and was told not to pursue the issue. That is where I got involved and that is when the Govt MIB or whatever you want to call them came and wanted all the paperwork he had given me and wanted to know what he had told me about his work. They never found his other documentation and I hope it surfaces someday just to really open some skeptic eyes. I am at the age now where I don't care what the Govt does. They will continue to hide the truth and anything else including actual aircraft or space craft that is not of this earth. New York state is very rich in UFO sitings, especially in and around the Syracuse / Plattsburg areas and around the Berkshire Mountain areas of Mass. We in our area have had several unexplained sitings over the last several years especially in the spring and early fall ?? Why then ?? Nuff said - excellent comments Jules and our CR4 associates. I will be monitoring the UFO CR4 site but maybe I should cool it with my comments for awhile before I get my fanny in hot water.. Thank you for all the positive and provocative comments.. We are not all crazy only the Govt politicians that are hiding the truth from us..

Gentlemen, let's please not fight, throw insults at each other and get personal on the blog. The whole reason CR-4 works is because differents minds can come together and "debate" the issues. We all have our own agendas and they are equally fascinating ... I am deleting a few of these posts now, and I'd like us to try harder to stop acting like llamas at feeding time.

Can someone who started a bloggy-thread delete posts?

I was not aware of it

Yes, because I work for GlobalSpec

You outed me!

Jules

No, girl, You outed yourself. It's cool though. No worries. We just might need some valid contacts there.

CR4 admin or GlobalSpec worker?

Yuval,

yuval_mate@yahoo.com

to start with.

For a while I was in disguise as Morpheous... perhaps it is time to morph yet again and escape that awful Mr. Smith.

Jules