Photonic girl': Please terminate the thread. There is no other beings than that of our own concieousness(sp?). Just please let it rest. Thank-you

What about us poor, purely-AI, sods who've passed their Turing Tests? We're sentient beings too, you know. The cyberworld would get pretty lonely without us, and you need us. Think about it before you make any rash decisions.

"...The cyberworld would get pretty lonely without us, and you need us..."

Also void of sustainable energy. They (autonomous robots?) would never be able to take-off without the caring maintenance and nurturing kindness of humans.

For precedent, just see what incompetence we have been carrying on our sweaty backs, for the last forty-thousand years, calling it...

Ah, forget it

Hey; We can't even talk to a dog!!!! What makes you thing that we are not to aliens---FOOD?

Hi Ash,

I talk to my dogs all the time. They even understand me. How about that! And you know what? I understand them too. Sometimes they do have a little trouble pronouncing certain vowels like "i" and sometimes "y".

We've learned to work around it though. For example, WOOF!!! at about 85 db means "I want food, NOW you idiot!" Just kidding. We love our dogs. They're just part of the family. Uh oh! What did I just say? Does that mean we're part of their family too? If we are, then maybe there's an overlap between humandom and dogdom. I suppose that could make us 'humdogs". Wow! I never thought about it that way. I'd better have a talk with those geeks that thought we descended from apedom.

You know,I always did think cousin Fido was a little strange...

I have always been part dog. My weimeraners (always rescued) have their issues, but they know the alpha dog controls the food. End of story. We communicate telepathically. When I feed the llamas, they are there snacking and pretending to be llamas. When I toss a broccoli stem out the door, a dog is there to catch it. Often a piece of steakfat makes it's way into a dog's open mouth. They'll happily eat raw carrots and apple cores. In return, they show fealty. They guard, they watch and they wait. Perhaps a little snack will come their way again. Or a leg, who knows.

And by the way, food and water wars may be coming to a country near you according to yahoo. Perhaps we should learn to speak dog and alien sooner rather than later. We may need something other than our cars to escape this one.

Jules

I too, have always been part canine. Mine are two female long-haired Dachshunds and they do play a large part in ruling the household.

Whoever said this : "A dog can express more with his tail in minutes than his owner can express with his tongue in hours."
-Anonymous

has got the language thing absolutely figured out.

On the global warming/food and water wars, there's probably a lot of truth in that but whether global warming overall is man made or whether we're just in some 10,000 year cycle of warm/cold is still a topic of debate. Regardless which side of the issue you're on, it's still undecided with any degree of certainty.

Personally, I think the rampant deforestation of the rain forests will impact us to a far greater extent than fossil fuel burning and whatever effect it might have on climate change. I believe its impact will be more directly felt in unfavorable trends in weather patterns which will lead to all sorts of things such as droughts, dust storms, wildfires, and the obvious effects on agricultural production. We may, even as we speak, be experiencing precursors to a coming catastrophe. Just look at the huge number of wildfires spreading across the U.S. Here in Atlanta we are in one of the driest periods in many years. I suspect the rest of the globe is having its share of weather related problems too.

-John

Oh Jules, I forgot to add that my dogs would kill for brocolli stalks. They love them. One of their favorite treats is an ice cold carrot.

How many llamas? Are they a lot of trouble to maintain?

-John

John,

I agree with you completely on climate change being in large part due to deforestation.

On dogs, don't they all love broccoli stalks? Woof! Food is food when you are a dog...

The llamas are easy. They also guard, they sleep outside our bedroom window at night. There are large cats roaming these hills, even though the DEC has yet to admit it. A local horse was killed last year by something that grabbed onto its haunches with large claws ... (no, not a mutilation)

The llamas are fearless even knowing that they could be next.

Jules

The llamas sound awesome! I had no idea. How would you rate their intelligence compared to, say, dogs? (or, maybe, Dels.. )

What you said about the horse brought back a memory that I had forgotten about:

Do you remember all the stories about Snippy the horse in 1967? That may have been before your time (complement). However, I was in Colorado when that happened. Maybe the same "whatevers" that got Snippy also got the horse in your area but were just a whole lot less careful than they were in 67. I promise it wasn't this alien.

Cheers

Dear Mr. Guest. I cannot terminate this thread. I have been preprogrammed by previous life forms to continue the discussion. Unless my off switch is activated I am on autopilot, also known as auto-yap. Thank you.

As this month's Discover magazine alludes to; aliens (alternate lifeforms) may be all around us and we just have not detected them. Apparently some folks think that other lifeforms evolved on this old hot rock based on non DNA! According to the article we only look for DNA as a constituent of life and thus would not notice lifeforms that are not based on it. RNA/non DNA ancestors? I guess if there's any validity to this, we must consider them part of our ancestry.

Does your makeup include DNA Jules?

Barely!

Jules

Now you're bing corny.

Fine. I will jump in on this one, but with another question. Imagine that you asked this question 200 years ago, or 100 years ago, how about just 50 years ago. The resulting answers on possible technologies used would be radically different (and in many cases, totally laughable compared to even current technology). Imagine trying to answer this question without the knowledge of the advancement of electricity, or computers, or quantum physics, etc.

Are we really that naive that we can presume that we are not in the same position as those that speculated years ago. Todays technology is yesterdays mad dream. Something to think about.

____________________________________________________________________

Hey, I made it through the whole post on ufos without mentioning the Draco.... Damb.

If you read every science fiction book ever made, all the stories have technology that either existed at the time it was written or had recently been discovered. If it was recently discovered, the writer sometimes uses a shot of imagination as to how it can be used to advantage in his book.

Take Jules Verne's Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea. The concept of a submarine in those days was probably unthinkable. Yet he imagined his submarine by using knowledge that was present in his day. Electricity was relatively new but he envisioned it being used in the Nautilus. To the people in his time, such a thing must have seemed on the far side of impossibility. Yet, today, I thought that most of his ideas were not far off the mark.

Just to reinforce your point : The book came out around 1870 and the first submarine was built by Drebbel (1620 ). More 'confirmable submarines that predate the book were Turtle and Alligator , though the best known is that of Hunley (Civil War ).

The Time Machine (H G Wells) might confound your proposal about existing technology !

Yes, I guess I should follow my own signature and make myself understood.

What I meant was that the Nautilus was more advanced than any submarine ever produced at that time. Of course, being a product of the mind than an actual sub, it was easy to imagine the Nautilus being the way Verne imagined it would be. I'm almost sure that submarine designers in later dates took a lot of inspiration from Twenty Thousand Leagues.

I never read The Time Machine by H.G. Wells, unfortunately, though I did watch the movie. I know, it's not quite the same, which is true of most movie versions of books. But a time machine as Mr. Wells envisioned it is more a product of pure imagination than a vision of how technology can or will be utilized. In fact, I never did understand the principles that they came up with to go through time.

Easy to say that this thingamajig creates a wormhole through time and space, enabling us to travel through the hole and into the past or the future and at fantastic distances in just an instant. As long as the explanation is as vague as possible, the movie goers won't mind.

Just for the fun of it , here's some stuff that compares the Nautilus to existing stuff.

As you say , The Time Machine was a lot more visionary. Both writers were great . Interesting how both books are concerned with mankind's folly through warfare. A good (even if slightly dark) read is much better than pointless* arguments.

_____________________________

Best leave room here for the UFO/God/Dawkins argument. The link is or fun - the pictures look hilariously like a mix of revivalists and time-share selling . UFOs** and God will have similar pictures so I didn't bother.

* If any Religious ↔ Science converts emerge then ignore .

** There is a vacancy on this group for cult leader folks.

Hey Vulcan! You doing fine? I don't understand; I got your point right away. Infact, I would like to add to it from a slightly diferent perspective...I recall a famous quote by someone that I don't recall, nor do I need a sub comment by one telling me who said it. That is pointless. It was about life and art and art and life imitating one another. I am not going to quote directly because, one I don't remember and two there are about a million quotes under life and art in my Oxford U Press Dictionary of quotes. Three I don't care. But would you not agree with this statement...."Without Science Fiction reality has no potential"? (ASH). /.Westinghouse would not have even thought about a solution to contain antimatter if it was spelled out for them on the original Star TreK. Vac&Magneticfield. Hope all is well Vulcan, ASH

Am I doing fine? No, memory's been slipping quite a bit these days.

...."Without Science Fiction reality has no potential"?

Science fiction is a product of the imagination. Reality, or inventions, are also products of the imagination. You come up with an idea in your head, think it through, come up with a way to convert it to something physical, tangible or legible, and presto! You've got a product of the imagination.

You've probably heard that cellphones were probably inspired by Star Trek's communicator. Or at least the newer ones that fold up.

When I visited a few wheelhouses or ship's bridges recently, I felt like I was on the bridge of the Enterprise, the layout had that feel.

I once proposed such a layout for a central control room to my department head once. Our processes have individual control rooms so going around the place is a real exercise. When I came to him with the drawing, he snockled (snorted with a chuckle ), "we'd better be careful not to send the factory to space with this thing".

I explained the rationale behind the design and he nodded, seeing the logic of it all (hey! that's what I do, right?). Unfortunately, the bigger bosses said that a with a central control room, we (the management staff) might not be motivated to do our rounds and instead stay at the central control room. 'Guess logic isn't contagious.

Take Jules Verne's Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea. The concept of a submarine in those days was probably unthinkable

According to one of my sources of wisdom (the History Channel), submarines already existed in those days: they were first used in US Civil War by the Confederates. A Union vessel (quote needed, please) got sunken by such a sub. Crew of the sub drowned due to some "minor" technical problems (like 12 people breathing trough a single 1'' pipe)

The first "real" sub was built in the US by Monsieur Jenesaipassonnome, a French engineer somehow related to Verne (he was one of his teachers or so)

Well PhG: I hope you will respond to my reply I sent minutes ago. I did forget to mention, scientifically, if it a UFO, I could throw a plate in the air and if you don't know what a plate is....Then it is a UFO. The response about not existing meant that if it flies and you recognize it, you just identified it. Ergo it would become an IFO. The thought should be refrased as In- Explicable F O. IEFO. Same rules apply but if it is not able to be explained by current technologies then it becomes an IEFO. There is your alien. I am telling you striaght, It is us. Good reading...Chapter 13, I think, of Carl Sagen's book, COSMOS. He tells a good story of the flatlanders. You can't explain the third dem' to them as they don't know what up is. Extrapulate that 1 dem', would we recognise the shadow of the forth? Also, if 'folks' judge the existance of UFOs based on not having seeing them, by the same rules of thought: Does GOD exist? If there wer an equal number of people on Tera that believed in ET's as people that believed in God????? GOD can't show up, ET can. Now you know why the keep it quite conspiracy. The majority of the populus of Tera, ( oh ya' Earth ), believe in something and follow belief. Governments of our nations know that it is better to exploit a following that can not expose their coruption than it is to endorse the one that does exist. We did not go to the moon to see what was there on the one side, we went to prove that we could. Meanwhile, get the photos of whats on the dark side. If you wanted to evac, Earth where is the most logical place to go first? I'll, " See You on the Dark Side of the Moon". PS, as this is all over, I welcome critique; however for content only not Sp&Gr. Besides on a test I would beat anyone anyway. So in the everliving words of the Lab on Porkie Pig, " Do you have a Lab?"' "Do you know where you can get a Lab?", Then SHUT-UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not directed to Del or PhG

????????

Perhaps something is lost in translation (I have never heard of Sp&Gr either). Please explain. Lets get away from the UFO/IFO debate as it is not really important or the point of the thread (it's nit-picking really).

I am guessing English is not your first language (It is very hard to tell from email posts, and your biography is not that helpful). Let's take a guess. Based on all known information from this thread and others (such as specific phrases and wording, grammatical errors, actual content, displayed knowledge, etc), plus a number of assumptions and "gut feelings"................How about Ashman! - Male, 15-19 years of age, Asian descent (possibly Chinese, perhaps Korean), English as second language, living in Canada, no engineering background outside of school.

Am I close? (I was reaching a bit trying to pinpoint the country). It is always a good idea to checkup on my "Gut Calibration" every now and then.

Gentlemen, it's always such a pleasure to go out for the day and come back to such a fascinating thread.

I look forward to discovering what all the acronyms stand for and what will actually happen to those vegetarian hippies who think they'll be able to survive (will we still have peanut butter?) after 2012....

In the spirit of information, for those who want to know, I am obligated to share my birth name, as I'm originally of German/Czech descent.

It is Gabriele, and yes, I once had a white horse.

Jules

German/Czech, hmm? Many Germans and Czechs settled in a region of Texas just east of where I live. One of the towns there is called Shiner, where they make locally-famous Shiner beer (Shiner Bock is my fave). A few years ago I read a billboard on the stretch of I-10 which runs through that part of Texas. It read:

"Shiner beer passes through hundreds of quality Czechs daily."

You like horses? For years my father kept and bred Arabians.

Photonicgirl writes: "I look forward to discovering what all the acronyms stand for..."

-----

ACRONYM = Alphabetic Co-location for Reducing Or Numbing Your Memory.

Hi Photonic Girl/ Gabriell; I need your horse to fullfill my role in Revelations. If you want clarity I am addressing others......It is EG&G, Special Projects, NV. I terminate the thread now with my involvement before I get terminated. PS My Birth date is 21/22, 12.____. Lets just say I will never turn fifty!

Hey ASH..I like the coffee chocs..

You E-mail me your coffee ones...I'll E-mail you my Strawberry creams (euch).

What do you guys think of this?

'Free' energy technology goes on display

Technology developed by an Irish firm that allegedly defies basic laws of physics to produce free power today goes on public display for the first time.

Steorn is challenging worldwide cynicism over its claims to have stumbled upon a revolutionary discovery that creates clean, constant energy and could end the global fuel crisis.

While 22 scientists continue their exhaustive tests on the Orbo technology the inventors are asking the public to come and see a demonstration for themselves at Kinetica Museum, Spitalfields Market, London.

A live working demonstration will be streamed on the internet from 6pm tonight. It can be viewed on the web from four different camera angles, before opening to visitors on Thursday.

Sean McCarthy, chief executive of Steorn, said: "What we are showing basically is a very simplified version of the technology. It's virtually all-clear plastic and magnets so we are demonstrating obviously that there is no battery hidden and so on. What the system will be doing is literally lifting a weight, demonstrating work being done for free."

Mr McCarthy said the company decided against using the technology to illuminate a light-bulb because the use of wires would attract further suspicion from a scientific community that has denounced the invention as heretical.

The technology, based on the interaction of magnetic fields, and yet to be conclusively proven or declared a hoax, created a stir after Steorn placed an advertisement in the Economist magazine last year challenging the world's scientists to test its claims.

The company picked 22 of the world's leading scientists from Europe and the US for the review, which started in January and is not expected to be completed before the end of the year.

Mr McCarthy insisted Steorn are contractually obliged to publish whatever the scientists conclude in full, adding that the €8 million invested in the technology to date and the company's reputation were at stake.

"Obviously Steorn and Sean McCarthy would never recover if there is a negative result here. But we don't see that as even an outside possibility," he said.

Hi Jules,

I'm reminded of Fleischman and Pons cold fusion fiasco. Interesting piece though. Where did you find it?

-John

John,

I find stuff all over the place. Being a writer, I have to sift through the many bookmarked sites I have created over the years to find a good story. We'll see how this one pans out, I'm very curious about it myself. If you click on the title you'll go to the original link.

Jules

I'll stake my dubious reputation to bet that both Irish free energy process and any (*) future cold-fusion turn out to be wet, soggy crisps.

Anyone to counter-bet?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Yeah, I know, no-one can predict the future.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

It's like "Have you heard of this Belgian physicist who claim to have come from the future via his worm-hole, last week.

According to him, he's booking sums from people who would like to place their funds on various lottery draws due next month. He declared that all bets are off by the end of next week, when he goes back into the future to place your bets"

Now, place your bets please.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

* any - hoax to extract R&D funds.

Suckers never die-out, they only replace each other in a never-ending line feeding the moloch...

A thousand Quatlous on the Earth Man!

(You might need to get Vulcan to explain the reference!)

Forget the Earthman. Five thousand Quatloos for his trainer (not Chekov's), and make it snappy!

Eh? What? Oh, sorry. 'Must have fallen asleep.

Quatloos

Quatloos

Now really, I have been following Steorn Since early 2006 and, funnily enough I kind of cannot help admire they way they have done it. The way they have utilised the internet and gone about the marketing process to this degree is quite unique (beats the hell out of most of the other free energy tinkerers and their lousy lab work and talk of spirit energy, nuclear power causing earthquakes, and the Draco aliens that told him).

Their website looks nice, and if you were lucky enough to look at it early last year you would have seen the full story of how they (supposedly) came about the free energy generator (totally by accident). It was actually a fun read.

The thing is, it doesn't actually work thou, and given the level of effort (supposedly) gone into testing and verifying it this would have been discovered very, very quickly (hence this must be a scam, rather than a case of monumental poor lab work indication over-unity). The question is just how long will those magnets last. Given the amount of effort they have already put in, I would hope that they at least last the demonstration. No, think about for a moment! This is what the world really needs, a huge publicity campaign promoting free energy, millions invested, and then it all falls over. Who can you blame, men in black suits, oil company representatives. People really need a wakeup call on free energy and get it thru their thick heads that you cannot get something for nothing (and that these scams have been going on for century's, before electricity was even invented).

Are we (humanity) stupid and doomed as a whole , I would have to say no. What I would say however is that we are progressing farrrrr to fast technologically. We need to slow down a bit and let our culture catch up. The balance must be maintained.

To, keep this at least partly based on aliens (I know, I did mention the Draco before), when was zero-point energy first mentioned (and by who). As far as I was aware it was first mentioned with regard to a specific alien starship power source, and has now spread and become one of the poster children for free energy.

Jack, I'm not suggesting these are wacko-loonies, and as a matter of fact, to be able to convince top-brass button-pushers in order to recruit the R&D hefty sums the cold-fusers did, you not only need-be a bright spinster, but also bright enough physicist, to be able to jog the terms in such a way, as to convince them somehow, that you'll be able to achieve nuclear proximity and pressure-levels, in temperatures lower than 15 million kelvin, while sustaining a controllable chain-reaction which is not explosive, yet within the confinement area, be it toroidal or spheroidal, it's just a PR choice, not pure physics.

Get my point? I'm not saying they are idiots. Far from it. Idiots are the funders, unless they too get a cut. Excuse my cynicism.

Well, to paraphrase an old maxim: "History teaches us that we do not learn anything from history". To that extent, history is loaded with so-called "perpetual" motion (read: free energy) devices. The only viable perpetual motion that has stood the test of time is the never-ending flow of money from the idiot investor's hands to that of the scammers. Can we get a patent on that motion?

Now, Yuval, lets wake up and get back to the question at hand. We need to figure out just what and where the aliens are and how they get about. I haven't heard this one brought up yet but I saw a bit on the History channel last night about this very subject. It has been suggested that the aliens are right here among us. At some time in the past aliens interbred with, possibly, apes and created a brand new species; us. Lets give the idea some credibility (at least for discussion's sake) since we have found no absolute, certain link ascribing us to apedom. We have postulated about our ape ancestry to no end but when you get down to it there's a synaptic gap a mile wide.

Should interbreeding turn out to be the case, then the "mothership"; the UFO that gets randomly reported, might just be coming around from time to time to check up on the children and see how well we're getting along.

Anyway, the bored bore the bored until the pot gets stirred...

It has been suggested that the aliens are right here among us

Well now ...

If I was an Alien rather than just the superior Cat race (you serve us well thank very much...more ear rubbing please ER).

Where would I hide my exploratory vehicles and my fellow aliens...?

Under the sea....

Humans are still idiots. The bermuda Triangle. Maybe we should of used a big cross. What can you do?

You give them a really good clue (i.e. Missing planes, ships) and they still don't get it.

As I said, idiots.

Yeah, that whole Bermuda Triangle thing has always fascinated me too. What do you suppose it is, some sort of geological anomoly that causes radar and electrical systems to crash or something else?

"...we have found no absolute, certain link ascribing us to apedom..."

1. This link

2. This one

3. This one

We have at least three direct links to apes: DNA, DNA, and DNA.

Have another. On me.

Some may even suggest we have a common ancestor in our past. (these are just few of many possible links to discuss this)

To those reluctant to accept, let me rephrase: Chimps and I have a common ancestor.

You have just proved my point Yuval. While we obviously share a large percentage of DNA with apes esp. chimps and orangutans, that small percentage that's different is where the rub is. That, my friend, is where the mile wide synaptic gap resides.

I must concede that our ancestry does appear to include certain members of the primate species, however it still seems there was a spectacular intervention somewhere around 5 MYA. Might it just have been the aforementioned interbreeding?

Who knows what creatures might have preceded us?

"...That, my friend, is where the mile wide synaptic gap resides...."

Koko the American signalling Gorilla, has a vocabulary of 1800 words, which she uses in a a vivid and imaginative way, to include predictions and metaphors.

North Sinai Bedouins have a 300 word vocabulary, which they use in a strict traditional manner, described as "dull" by anthropologists.

Should we continue with the estimated mean IQ of dolphins and Orcas? They are far from us in DNA kinship.

According to your proposal, the minor genetic difference between human races turn them into different species.

Did you know there is no known, positive, procreational-barrier between humans and chimps?

Do you understand where you are going with this?

Let go and understand creation as-is, not as you would like it to be, that's my humble advice.

Don't dare the creator, challenging Him with your ideal concepts of how should nature be created, but humbly learn it, as-is, instead.

I'm not here to argue anything but this: Let's be sincere enough to measure what we see and learn faithfully, and be humble and trusting enough to accept the emerging reality, even if sometimes, it may freak us out.

Should we continue with the estimated mean IQ of dolphins and Orcas?

Please do so . How is the base measurement for dolphins (compared to humans) made. Are such measures 'fair' comparison given the evident communication issues ? Can a comparison be made based on such thing as shape recognition alone , and what other tests can be applied ? A useful source for such investigation probably exists but my knowledge of the field is limited - would you provide a link to one. I have seen claims that currently used IQ tests are culturally biased. Specifically , when applied to Australian aboriginal children ; language based questions returned below average scores , whereas spatial awareness type questions returned higher than average scores*. If current IQ tests can not compensate for educational and cultural skills , do they have any valid meaning ? It seems a step too far to investigate Dolphin IQ if no reasonable comparison measure exists for humans.

*The principle reason being , I imagine , social. Aboriginal people receive poor formal education. They have other skills acquired from an oral tradition which are perhaps of greater value. Large chunks of currently used IQ tests can not be applied 'fairly' to those situations. IQ tests are presumably devised by those educated in a 'Western' style of thinking (?).

You have raised an interesting issue on the meaning of 'intelligence' . Perhaps it merits initiating a new thread , in order that it can develop upon it's own reasoned path (it is buried within a ridiculous/jocular subject matter ).

There are other questions your post raises , but this particular issue is (in my opinion) far more interesting. It deserves discussion without frivolous diversion.

Thank you ,

TDK (not subscribed yet ).

And there is also the question of whether humans are indeed intelligent.

We share this planet with many millions of other creatures, but cannot (yet?) communicate with them either in their own language or accurately in some intermediate form.

Why then spend so much time and effort trying to communicate with life-forms elsewhere in the universe? We cannot even see some of the life on this planet (viruses), but think that we could detect the presence of life on other planets.

There are so many human languages that no-one on this planet could understand everyone else: why the great rush to find a race which may only see us as wild savages, as our communication skills are so poor?

Very well put indeed. I'm with you on this all the way.

Thank you!

For my money, sharks must be quite smart - they've survived for so long. But by that criteria, woodlouse could teach us a thing or two as well!

Pigs for instance, are thought to be much smarter than dogs (the usual reference-level), and since they had a long predator/pray relations, it it makes me somewhat smug about it.

We also know today, that brain-size doesn't make the main factor in intelligence, and the African-Grey (Parrot) can not only learn to verbally-speak with a given vocabulary, but also really understand the meaning and concepts behind the words and phrases, as it is very well documented by Dr. Irene Pepperberg and her research subject Grey, called Alex.

"...woodlouse could teach us a thing or two..."

A meaningful lesson of adaptivity.

Who is there to say that intelligence is the most important trait for survival or prosperity?

And who is to say that adaptability for survival is not THE most important form of intelligence?....

.....Suggesting that humans are less intelligent, as we try to adapt our surroundings to suit us?

Right... right

Very good point, I totally agree.

Off-topic on our sort discussed here, but an over-the-top spin on adaptivity

C'mon, off topic? Let's explore all possibilities!

Jules

You're probably right.

Concerning UFOs, there's no such thing as "off-topic"...

Initially, just to asses what's IQ and how it's determined, here's a few links to start with, each for their own.

In dolphins and orca, intelligence is not measured to determine their English grammatical abilities, but instead, to determine their problem-solving abilities, according to rather common cognitive psychology measurements.

While some maintain, that compared to man, dolphin maintain a very high status, some might debate that such comparison is inadequate, because problem-solving tests designed for humans when implied to dolphins, are degrading for dolphins, in the sense that dolphins never evolved to face man-type of problems, but rather implied to their own unique evolution and it's typical set of given problems.

> Just google "dolphin intelligence" for further reference on the subject.

As to your social reference: I understand you might have an issue or two with the validity and social consequence of what's called "IQ". Fair enough, and you're not alone in this, but unfortunately, this is besides the main point:

I originally maintained that DNA kinship should not freak us out, because we know so very little about the intricacies of gene manifestation (Morphology) as they interact to realise one trait or another, so if it turns out that dolphins are even more intelligent than man, so be it. I'm not there to fight facts, but rather accept nature as it is revealed, as long as the emerging science involved is not some hoax.

I can also understand that any possible human kinship to apes may freak out most of my fellow beings, but as I stated, it doesn't bother me, in any sense whatsoever. I don't feel less human, or less of myself, just because I share 98 percent of my genes with a chimp. So be it. What can I do? Force God to re-arrange reality, just because it doesn't fit my ideals?

This is a vain and arrogant way, which I choose not to take.

I'd rather take and respect reality as-it-is, instead of convincing myself or others, how it should have been.

Thank you for the reply , but ;

As to your social reference: I understand you might have an issue or two with the validity and social consequence of what's called "IQ". Fair enough, and you're not alone in this, but unfortunately, this is besides the main point:

That is precisely the point*. I will try to elaborate.

IQ tests devised by Binet et al , were devised by early 20th century WASP men , and among many reasons to question them social exclusion was one (your link refers). Without resolving the validity of such , applying it to cetaceans appears invalid . I may as well apply an |IQ test to a cabbage and thereby assert it's validity to exist. Our human-bound judgements such as -'intelligence' carry little value. My question concerns the validity of measurements on Cetacean intelligence , and the basic question of why is there a need to quantify this and do human comparisons have validity. Pursuing the measurement of such questions as the creatures intelligence blurrs the issue of it's right to live. Would you give it more right to live than some ugly creature , based on a human measure of value ?

* I had not addressed the issue of kinship and inter-species breeding. It is an entirely different matter to that of defining 'intelligence'. The possibility of inter-species breeding that you suggest is not within the scope of what I had asked ( because it is contentious in many ways , not least of which is the possibility of futile argument of the word 'species')

Whilst we may share common ground the way in which 'intelligence' is evaluated and the way in which our fellow creatures are treated , their would appear to be no point in replying. My question concerned principles of IQ and how results may be useful. Digression to more questionable topics such as chimp-human mating was not what I had sought , and the inclusion of emotive phrases such as "This is a vain and arrogant way, which I choose not to take " is not conducive to reasoned discussion.

TDK

Well put. Let me only have a minor remark about 'inter-species breeding' prospects, and the definition of 'species':

There is no such thing as inter-species breeding, since the definition of species stems from the ability to breed a fertile offspring (in contrast to a horse and a donkey breeding an infertile mule, for instance).

This is not a morphological issue.

Even nearly-identical creatures, unable to produce a fertile offspring are considered alien to each other, species-wise.

In sub species, it might be as critical as courting rituals.

I concur , though I know the defintion of 'species' full well. We both do I suspect.

"Let go and understand creation as-is, not as you would like it to be, that's my humble advice."

Of all the people I know, I think I accept creation, and reality, as-is to a much greater extent than most of them. I do understand that what-is is and nothing in my (sometimes) rambling imagination can, or will, change that "isness".

I brought up the idea of alien intervention in the spirit of Jules' post; to consider the (wild) possiblilty of other alien lifeforms, UFOs and what effect they might, or might not, have on our world. You, yourself, said in an earlier post something to the effect of watching this thread take off...

Now, Jules has posited the notion of exploring the "constituents of time". Shall we now just drop the alien intervention and warp over to time, or "thyme", as Del has said. Your turn.

You, yourself, said in an earlier post something to the effect of watching this thread take off...

I think it was prefaced " Girl...." . Not that I would be patronising.......scuse me whilst I pack my tongue back in my mouth.

You can call me Girl, it's no sweat. I worked as a bike mechanic in bicycle shops for 17 years in my previous life, while also working as a writer on the side. My greatest skill is to take a totally dead bicycle wheel and pump new life into it....

It takes a lot more than gender reference to ruffle my scaly lizard feathers.

Jules

The Protingham illusion: "Time is money"

...And money is a fight to the death.

The Saga of the Pliocene documents the interbreeding...what d'you mean "it's fiction"?

Didn't that saga take place in Appalachia? Or was it Arkansas?

Q: Why did O.J. Simpson move to Arkansas?

A: They all have the same DNA.

Awww. The lights must've heated those magnets past their Curie Point.

This so-called "free energy" technology using magnets keeps resurfacing, over and over. Eventually the magnets de-magnetize (the "free" energy is derived from the magnets' magnetization energy), and the device stops working.

So that's why their "perpetual motion" will only be displayed for a week.

I could have done better with Silver cells hidden in the magnets _{(but don't tell anyone, just incase I might make my millions from it - if a watch can run for 7 years off one of these, I'm sure a dozen or more would keep the wheel spinning for a few months)}

"So that's why their "perpetual motion" will only be displayed for a week."

-----

Yup, possibly with the magnets quietly being replaced every night and away from prying eyes.

OOfo's are real you bet cha:

I have seen this fascinating exchange pass through attempts at explanation and then the belief crowd stepping and taking credit for all things as usual.

I do pray a lot, but the Samuel Clemmons quote is my rule you know.

The Egyptian Hieroglyphics are showing a Sikorsky Helicopter (Looked like a big Huey Cargo mover to me) a Submarine, a real flying OOfo disk. Go figure how those guys got the perfect silhouette of those things thousands of years ago. But having a studious mind and little belief in other than what I have experienced and have had thrust upon me as an experience I think I have figured this thing out.

Somewhere in the not two far distant future we find out that the old Stone things scattered all over the globe really served not one purpose at all in the past . I mean not one thing stands out as important that they do.

The Politicians and the Historians get their act together. After all through the entire time of history Politicians have been taking the credit for creating things like those big stone artifacts, and they want their ancient brethren to still get their dues.

They take a hellacious amount of Tax money and sponsor a real time travel machine. Then send back all of that machinery and talent needed to build the stone artifacts that they depend on to quote past great politicians.

So in concluding OOfo's are the end results of the political process.

I dunknow do you?

This thread is already hopelessly long & tangled, but I can't help adding my bit.

J. Allen Hynek, the former head of Northwestern University's Astronomy department, was probably the nation's expert on UFOs. He worked on the government "Blue Book" project, starting as a stridently skeptical young professor. By the end of the project, he was fascinated by those few accounts that could NOT be explained away. (I think I recall that the number was about 4%.) He started the Center for UFO Studies, built a database of facts entirely devoid of sci-fi speculation, and reported much of this work in his book, The UFO Experience.

His favorite reports were those from trained observers such as airline pilots, policemen, meteorologists, etc. One example: a pair of policemen turned their searchlight to shine on a hovering disk above their squad car, but they saw no reflection. Dr. Hynek considered three explanations: 1) Disk out of range, 2) Disk covered in non-reflective material, 3) Disk not a solid object. He did not try to promote any single explanation, being far more interested in exploring all alternatives.

Fascinating guy. GREAT teacher. He invented the term "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" and even got a cameo in the movie!

Dr. Hynek died some years ago, but his Center for UFO Studies still exists. Their website is here: http://www.cufos.org/

4) Searchlight not turned on?

That's a great review, thank you. I've seen Hynek's work and never looked closely enough to decide if it was fact or fiction.

What do you think of this guy, Steven M. Greer, M.D.? He's got a book out that claims he makes ET contact, but there are no photos (!) and he's followed around by a cadre of single women (hmmm).

Seems fishy to me.

Jules

Hadn't heard of Greer. Ya gotta wonder about a guy who claims repeated contact, but has neither photos nor witnesses. Any artifacts, I wonder? If I met ETs, I'd try to keep a pen, a fingerprint, a stick of chewing gum, something.

One of Dr. Hynek's frequent contacts was a farmer from South America who claimed that a green alien woman contacted him frequently for - um - "good times," but never left anything behind that he could show as evidence. Dr. Hynek kinda got a kick out of the guy, but I don't think he's in the database...

Oh yeah, I recall reading that...the dude with the alien girlfriend.

Greer does say he's got witnesses, dozens of them, but i'm kind of skeptical. I want photos! Hard science! Haven't seen a photo of anything yet that convinces me...so there you go. I can only buy this other diminsional stuff for so long then I want to see some real hard science. Which is why I pose the question here, hoping you hard scientists can provide some answers to the popular question of UFOs.

It's been an interesting ride, as always on CR-4.

Jules

See if you can find a copy of The UFO Experience - it's out of print. Good hard science, but a dreadfully dry read, so it died on the vine while Chariots of the Gods? sold a gazillion copies.

Cheap at amazon, I can get the hardcover (used) for $1.48 plus $4 shipping.

Should I buy it?

Jules

First you want our hyperdrive design...

Now you want book purchasing advice.

Hey honey...do you want me to jot down a diner menu for ya' ?

$5.48 isn't much of a risk, non?

Rhetorical question, I bought it immediately! How many UFO books have you bought recently hmmm?

I like the way you say hmmm?

Great book. Had it for 25 years.

We were standing on a ship in Newport News Shipyard on a Super tanker and we watched this strange light hoovering around another ship. Next it came our way and when this flying tube with ends the size bowling ball size flew over our heads I could see up through fans turning inside the balls ends. I fugured it was power with nuke engery and a spy thing either CIA or Russian.

But hey we worked there painting at night while going to college in the days. We could have been seeing things because of the pain fumes.

Sound like st Elmo's fire?...ball lightning?

Both are recognized phenomena...but not if you are stoned on paint fumes!

Doc Hynek's team routinely omitted any reports from areas around military installations. The UFOs could be "spook" projects - and how could they hope to prove otherwise?

3% different from chimps.........but is this 3% unique on this planet, or has it come from some other animal/plant. That would be enough to convince a great many people either way.

Has the guy with the "alien girlfriend" ever handed over a sample for DNA analysis - or does she do a good job of cleaning up after?

Well everyone; Photonic,the writer girl, popped the question! I do know the answer. However, in fear of a quick demise, I can't share. However I can say Lazar was 100%. I have been there too. I don't know if it is what they do to you or the massive fear not being able to leave; but, I do have the tel# for the personell dept of the governing area in question. I would give it to you if you want it. Ask them directly! I am most confedant that you will find your answer. I guess that is the end of me! I do not care. This is not the Ashman, sighned, ASH

Oh and my e-mail may or may not be helliwellash@aol.com I now terminate this forum.

Check out the website of MUFFON.. You may see something that will stun your imagination !! Do UFOs exist - Our area has seen several in the skies over the past 30 years.. Are they military planes such as the stealth ones or are they military experiments that don't exist.. Who knows, but I can tell you from personal experience that my wife and I saw a UFO many years ago and there were over 35 other witnesses - including several high ranking air force officers that turned white at the prospect of something that they didn't recognise as their own planes. Do they exist - probably and that is why Project Blue Book was reclassified as higher than "Eyes Only" and not accessible by Freedom of information inquires.. I have read the comments regarding your question and have to say most all are just a bunch of crackpots that have no ability to think for themselves. I know I am opening a big can of worms but who cares. We know what we all saw and if you have any questions contact the people at MUFFON they will address any inquires from everyone..

Later all, been fun !!

Airmotor,

Sorry to see you are signing off so quickly. We should at least have the opportunity to respond to your post.

In defense of the guys who are posting, certainly they can think for themselves. Read some of the links provided within their posts and you'll notice.

I don't think that what you are saying has been totally disagreed with in this thread either. Some people are simply saying that they don't swallow the whole UFO thing without some sort of scientific proof, and I am one of those people.

It's great you have seen UFOs. What did they look like? Because the officers didn't recognize the flying objects as some of their own, are you assuming they were from outer space? Could it be they were just not regular military?

Airmotor, come back to the thread where you belong.

Jules

Help us! We're all just hanging on by our last threads. Right Jules.

Thank you for your comments.. When I first saw something I was 17 yrs old with a bunch of friends and we were talking with our coach after a football game. Someone noticed several fast moving objects in the western sky. It was about 10 PM and the moon was about a quarter shine or so. There were several sightings in our area of upstate NY and the papers reported it as well. Being in the Civil Air Patrol at the time I was very familiar with private, commercial and military aircraft. This sighting took place near Deposit NY and as far away as Binghamton and Syracuse (it was also reported by Hancock Field Air National Guard base in Syracuse). This was during a major UFO flap in 1955 thru 1959 in this area of NYS. These "UFOs" made multi-directional changes and speeds as well as disappearing in a micro second. My other sighting was much closer when my wife and I were traveling to my hometown in the early hours around 1 or 2 AM. We had stopped to change drivers when I noticed a very bright light that appeared to be hovering over a lake that was next to the road we were driving on. We watched the object for several minutes and it moved in several directions and changed from white to a brilliant blue white and appeared to have several radiating multi color lights in the lower area of the object. Being a design engineer with aircraft design experience I estimated the distance from us to be about an eight of a mile with the object about 500 ft high from looking at the reflection in the water of the lake. There was no wind of any kind, no sound and the night was extremely clear and sharp. We were awake and very aware and alert of what we were seeing. We watched it for about 10 minutes and it suddenly dipped slightly and streaked out of sight in an almost vertical arc and in less that a second it was gone. The sighting was seen by a lot of people and was reported by the local police agency as well as reports from two commercial pilots that were in the area. Albany FAA radar also reported "Something" which they estimated had a speed of Mach III ?? Are there UFOs out there !! You tell me - I know what we saw was never explained and I made a lot of inquires until I was told to back off by a man who cam to my home one Saturday afternoon and showed me his Government credentials of the Dept of Defense ?? Somehow I really didn't believe him and neither did my wife. I talked with some friends that were in the air force at the time and they told me there had been a lot of sightings in upstate NY around that time. In the past several years I have retired and have seen several things that got my attention - but who cares now - if there is other beings or UFOs, maybe someday we all will find out and know what our government is hiding. Is there an area 51 ?? Well thats my story and I am sticking to it !! PS: Regular military at that time were post Korea and just getting their feet wet in the jet age. The officers I spoke of were from a classified base in upstate NY and one was my uncle with whom I had several very interesting conversations that I can't talk about, so I know there was some substantial evidence to show what the truth was and the majority of the people don't really want to know anyway..

Thanks Ken - I am still of sound mind

Dear Ken,

I take you very seriously. Thank you for what you wrote on the thread, you describe everything and are clear about your position and what you saw. I believe the engineers on this site will respect your comments. They act goofy but are in general a very bright bunch. Since you came back and respected my request to return, and were up front and truthful about your experiences, I believe they will show respect to your knowledge.

Welcome back! Stick around and join in the discussion, it's not boring...and we may find we have many kindred souls lurking about in cyberspace.

Jules

Out of the blue, and I probably didn't get it correctly, but:

Let me get this right, so I can refer to it later with due confidence:

This dude is ready to leave CR4 because people here, "statistically", don't take flying-saucers into serious enough consideration?

Sorry for the tedious repetition, I needed to see it in concise written form, so that I can believe that it actually happened.

Hey I've seen a lot of people say they are leaving and not returning to CR-4 after some post snafu argument thing, but this guy, he wrote a UFO story in great detail, including measurements about the UFO and distance to the UFO, and he included his profession. He even included a possible man in black!

Airmotors's got some staying power.

Me, I respect that.

Jules

Oh, I don't argue that the fella is not sincere, or that I have any particular reason to doubt his UFO accounts and measurements.

I just find it very hard to believe that he would consider leaving a site like CR4, because most people here wouldn't take aliens too serious

You are right, CR-4 a great forum!

Perhaps he was simply saying "Later!" as in, ta ta for the evening.

Jules

err ?

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