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Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

Posted November 25, 2007 5:01 PM
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The question as it appears in the 11/27 edition of Specs & Techs from GlobalSpec:

Roger and Thomas were camping. When it was time to make dinner, they lit a fire to heat water to mix with the freeze-dried camping food. Roger was in charge of bringing the cooking gear but having never been camping before, mistakenly brought paper plates and cups and plastic utensils. Thomas, a former boy scout, was upset that they weren't prepared, but managed to use what was on hand to boil the water and make dinner. How did he do it?

(Update: Dec 4, 8:25 AM EST) And the Answer is...

Thomas poured the water into a paper cup and placed it on the fire until it started to boil. You can boil water in a paper cup over an open fire, the water in the cup keeps the paper well below its flammability point so it won't catch on fire.

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#1

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/25/2007 6:37 PM

Small stones where heated in the camp fire, and used to heat the water in a paper cup, this was then used to further heat clean water, possibly by using a paper plate with a layer of water and hot rocks, and a fresh cup in the middle?, this was then used to prepare dinner.

Regards JD.

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#2

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/25/2007 8:13 PM

Roger and Thomas were camping in Yellowstone National Park near a geothermal hot spring. They had all the hot water they needed.

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#6
In reply to #2

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/26/2007 9:32 AM

Roger and Thomas were camping in Yellowstone National Park near a geothermal hot spring. They had all the hot water they needed.

Only if you like the taste of sulfur in your food!

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#43
In reply to #6

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 8:36 AM

I love sulphur on my chicken, its delicious. Vitamin S, can't get enough of that...

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#44
In reply to #43

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 8:47 AM

I thought vitamin S referred to one of the following:
Aspirin
Mind-altering drugs
Other brain-shrinking activity (at least for men)

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#3

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/25/2007 8:51 PM

As long as water is in the paper cup you can boil it easily without burning the cup because the water absorbs all the heat and the cup never gets above 212° F.

Mix the boiling water with the freeze-dried food and presto, instant dinner.

I've done this, but it does tend to melt the wax in the cup.

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#55
In reply to #3

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 12:48 PM

I could not have put it more succinctly.

Except all people outside North America recognise the Boiling point of water at atmospheric pressure as 100 degrees Celsius and don't recognise this strange number of 212 degrees F. It is time the North American continent drags itself into the twenty first century in this respect and many others instead of remaining in the nineteenth.

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#56
In reply to #55

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 1:55 PM

ILinnaeus's centigrade scale started to achieve popularity from about 1750. Seems a bit unfair to rename it after someone who proposed a reversed version?

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#113
In reply to #56

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

12/05/2007 12:41 PM

"Linnaeus's centigrade scale started to achieve popularity from about 1750. Seems a bit unfair to rename it after someone who proposed a reversed version?" Well, in my youth we called it centigrade. It was only when I was at university that I first heard the word Celsius.


Ken G

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#115
In reply to #55

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

12/05/2007 4:05 PM

Excuse me, but please do not lump all of "North America" together. As much as some people like to think we are part of the US here in Canada, we aren't, and we use celcius for measurement of temperature here.

Yes, we still use many non-metric measurement systems, but only because of our proximity (geographically, technically, and financially) to the US.

Thank you.

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#116
In reply to #115

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

12/05/2007 4:23 PM

It must be real difficult being Canadian. First it was them Brits holding you back, now it's those southern neighbours. Aaahh. Anyways, the full degree in Celsius is too large for defining a "comfortable" temperature. Fahrenheit is a much more convenient for that purpose.

If you want a "scientific" scale you would conventionally use Kelvin - but it has no fundamental advantage over the ORankine. Surely Lord Kelvin wasn't a Francophile??

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#79
In reply to #3

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/29/2007 1:09 AM

As long as water is in the paper cup you can boil it easily without burning the cup because the water absorbs all the heat and the cup never gets above 212° F.

You would be able to use the paper plate as well, by folding it into an appropriate shape...granted it would take some time, but there would be more capacity for water in the folded plate than in the cup... ┬

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#4

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/25/2007 9:54 PM

Paper cups filled with water can be set in hot coals. (no flames). The water will boil.

We had somebody try to do it witha plastic cup but it melted.

This was a fun one to show the boy scout troop. We also did bacon and eggs in a paper sack over hot coals.

Omelets in a plastic sack in boiling water.

Hamburgers in onion skins or green peppers on hot coals.

Hard boiled eggs on a wood stick.

Check out the ignition (?) temperature of dry paper versus wet paper. How fast will the water take the heat away from the paper?

This challenge brought back some fun camping experiences that I had with the boy scout troop.

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#9
In reply to #4

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/26/2007 11:36 PM

"Hard boiled eggs on a wood stick."

Like a shish-ka-bob?

Hard to skewer a fresh egg, How do you do that?

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#15
In reply to #9

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 7:41 AM

You poke hole in each end of the egg. Take a wood stick and strip the bark off. (striping the bark off removes the dirt and bacteria. A green stick is best not an old dried stick)

Poke the stick through the egg and retract it slightly. Lay the egg near some hot coals, rotate as needed. When you see the egg whites expand out the egg is probably ready.

The stick provides a means of placing and retracting the egg.

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#29
In reply to #9

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 4:24 PM

Yes you can use the stick or you can cook an egg in an orange peel too. Cook in tin foil and I have also baked cakes in card board boxes using charcoal as the heat source.

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#5

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/26/2007 7:30 AM

Well that question is too easy-any boy scout knows that answer.

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#28
In reply to #5

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 4:18 PM

Hey!! I am a boyscout and you can boil water in the paper cups. We used to do it all the time and even in flames.

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#48
In reply to #28

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 9:35 AM

absolutely-I didn't think it was a secret, or even a little known fact. Just like washing greasy dishes without soap, field refrigerator, starting a fire with steel wool, pain killer tea, making a lean-to, etc etc.

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#7

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/26/2007 10:25 AM

AH hit the nail on the head. I have heated water for cocoa in a paper cup many times. The trick is to fill the water to the brim so the lip will not get burned too badly, or else pour the water into another cup after heating. If you only fill the cup part way, the top will usually burn away down to the level of the water, and if you let the water boil away, the cup will also burn away.

Similarly, be careful not to leave an aluminum coffee pot (especially the thin camping ones) on the fire untended for very long (several hours). I did that on an electric kitchen stovetop "burner" one time while in college and came back from class hours later to find the pot on its side with the bottom melted out after all the water had boiled away, with re-solidified puddles of melted aluminum in the drip pan. And the "burner" was only on low! Aluminum melts at a much lower temperature than steel, and thin-wall aluminum cannot conduct the heat away as fast as it builds up without water inside.

To add to "ddk"'s list of "Stupid Food Tricks" (not for freeze-dried food though):

- Bake potatoes in mud by coating thoroughly and thickly on all sides with moldable mud, then placing in bed of coals from a hot fire. When thoroughly baked the mud will become hard and dry and can be broken off cleanly, usually pulling the potato skin with it, leaving a delicious, ready to eat, baked potato (butter, salt, and/or sour cream as desired)

- A nice shiny large coffee, or other solid, tin-plated (not plastic coated) can makes a good griddle for frying eggs, pancakes, bacon, etc. Invert the can so the bottom is up and the open end is down. Punch holes in the sides around the bottom and the top (for air intake and exhaust) and either build a small kindling fire inside the can, or place the can over coals on the edge of a fire. If possible, oil or grease the cooking surface before placing over fire.

- Metal cans can also make handy pots for boiling water for freeze-dried foods, boiling vegetables, or preparing foods like soup and stew. Even if found in a trash dump, the fire will sterilize the can. Just be sure it is all-metal and there are no holes in the side or bottom and the can was not used for toxic chemicals. Boiling the water kills any bacteria as well. Pliers from your tool kit or bendable sticks of green wood (harder to catch fired) can be use as a handle to pick up the hot can and pour it or remove from the fire. Plastic utensils may be used for stirring if done quickly and there is minimum contact with the metal, since the melting point of the plastic should be above 212°F.

- If you are lucky enough to have aluminum foil, you may make all sort of one-use pots and pans. Double or triple layers and form into bowls or cylinders. Use sticks from small green tree branches rolled up in the edges for reinforcement if necessary. Lining corrugated boxes with foil can also make a nice reflector oven by placing box on its side so opening faces fire. IR from fire will be trapped inside and heat air and food while box remains below ignition temperature. Green sticks driven through sides and covered with foil can make an oven rack for baking. Wrap meat (ground beef is excellent) and moist foods like cut up onions, apples, potatoes, carrots, etc together in "foil packs" by folding into a pouch and crimping edges after food is inside. Place on coals to bake and turn frequently with a stick, taking care not to poke a hole in the foil. Also, makes clean-up a snap!

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/26/2007 11:34 PM

With the limit of my experience being the campfire boiling of a milk carton of water for a cup of tea, ( and thinking I'd been a VERY clever boy!), I bow to the suggestions above for 'desperation cooking'. Well done Scouts - merit badges for all.

winkster

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#21
In reply to #7

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 10:15 AM

"I did that on an electric kitchen stovetop "burner" one time while in college and came back from class hours later to find the pot on its side with the bottom melted out after all the water had boiled away,"


We did that at our house on a somewhat regular basis. We even used ceramic teakettles, but they would break if left on the stove too long. Thankfully, we never had a serious fire. More recently, we purchased a flat-top ceramic surface stove that appears to use radiant heating through the ceramic surface. At first I thought we could use Anyway, with the kids now grown we longer have the problem(Knock on wood!!).

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#24
In reply to #7

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 12:05 PM

A sharpened stick and a rabbit do away with the need to rummage in the bin!

A cautionary note: when rummaging, try not to wake Stinky Pete or you will have more mouths to feed! Then again, I bet he has a cooking trick or two up his sleeve!

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#106
In reply to #7

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

12/05/2007 8:24 AM

On cooking the foil packs. use good aluminum foil or two layers of the standard thin stuff, place in the coals being sure to have coals on top, wait 20 minutes and it's done.

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#110
In reply to #106

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

12/05/2007 9:32 AM

What of the proposed link between aluminium and Alzheimers?

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#111
In reply to #110

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

12/05/2007 10:23 AM

The increasing diagnosis of Alzheimer's parallels the increased use of aluminum for food and beverage preparation. This may or not be related but there were studies that showed increased levels of aluminum in Alzheimer's patients. I heard of those reports over five years ago. I have not heard of any later studies.

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#112
In reply to #110

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

12/05/2007 12:18 PM

Rare use as on a very occasional camping expedition shouldn't hurt. More important to avoid living in an area where the water is soft and loaded up with aluminum salts, and (possibly) cooking acidic fruits in aluminum containers. (There have been rumours about the aluminum content of tea - but I'm ignoring them)

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#114
In reply to #110

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

12/05/2007 12:53 PM

I think the link between the buildup of aluminum-based plaques in the olfactory tissues and the use of aerosol sprays, particularly deodorants and anti-perspirants containing aluminum compounds, especially the highly advertised "aluminum chlorhydrate", provide strong evidence that aluminum can be absorbed other ways besides through cooking utensils. Besides, the growing use of polymer and ceramic coatings on aluminum cookware will naturally diminish any possible aluminum intake through this source. Also, I am not aware of ANY substantial use of aluminum in flatware, this being primarily stainless steel, plastic, or silver-plate. Some aluminum cooking utensils may still be used, but the norm now seems to be either molded teflon (or other high temperature polymer), stainless, or teflon/stainless combinations.

The use of aluminum in beverage cans is not a likely source anymore, if it once was, due to the fact that the typical aluminum can is now so thin that it requires a polymer coating inside to prevent the carbonic acid in carbonated beverages from eating it away and causing leakage in only a few days (which is what happens if the coating fails).

Therefore, if there is/was a link between food and beverage aluminum and Alztheimer's Disease we should see the incidence of Alzheimer's drastically reduced in the next few years. Part of the increase may in fact be increasing recognition and diagnosis of the disease which has occurred in the last few decades.

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#10

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 1:41 AM

The trick is to leave the food in the sealed plastic bag, cut a small slit in the corner and add the required amount of water. Do your best to seal the bag so it does not leak, like fold the corner and hold it shut by usuing an improvised "clothes peg" from a twig by splitting it with a pocket knife, or using the tweezers from your Swiss Army knife. (The Scout has one)

Heat the bag in such a way that it is not melted nor burnt using steam generated in the following way. Dig a shallow ditch, light a fire and get a good bed of coals. Place rocks over the hot coals, and when the rocks are hot and the coals have died down, place a layer of wet grass over the rocks to protect the bag from the hot rocks, place the food on top and place more grass on top again. Slowly sprinkle water onto the grass to create steam. The steam will cook the food and it can be served into the paper cups/plates as required

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#17
In reply to #10

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 8:57 AM

"Freeze-dried" camping food is generally pre-cooked before drying and packaging, thus, reconstitution is accomplished simply by pouring boiled water into the pouch, stirring, and waiting a few minutes.

Your multiple and difficult steps are totally unnecessary. They would however be excellent suggestions on how to cook wild game and edible plants which the pair will have to hunt and gather after melting the bags and ruining their meal trying to follow your procedure for preparing the freeze-dried food!

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#11

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 2:00 AM

They heated the water using the paper cups either directly over the fire, which would not burn the cup due to the water removing the heat from the paper fast enough to not let it burn - or through heat exchanged from another medium, such as a rock.

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#12

Re: Camping Quandary: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 4:11 AM

Which My Weekly Reader did they get this challenge from? A bit on the grade-schoolish side. Suppose after boiling in the cup, they took it to the water hole, filled it with water, placed the plate on top, inverted & released the plate and were all amazed; and then the plate out to put out the fire before heading home with den mother...to get some real food and sodas...whereupon everyone--except those launching soda straw wrappers--began making their glasses ring by rubbing the rims with their fingers...until they were asked to leave because other customers were complaining.

BTW: quandry? or quandary?

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#19
In reply to #12

Re: Camping Quandary: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 9:24 AM

Ooooh! Touché! Or is that, "Touchy!"?

I agree, it was rather simplistic, but your sarcasm is undeserved, and a bit faulty as well.

Hmmm, mixing up your venues a little? If they headed home with "den mother" for some "real food and sodas" where would they get the soda straw wrappers to launch? Stopped at the drive thru? But then they could not have annoyed the other customers. My kids at "home" get their straws from a bix box, unwrapped. And if they were eating out at a restraurant that served soda straws in wrappers, it is not likely they could have made their paper soda cups, or even soda glasses, ring, because only fine stemmed crystal will do that. Just try making a conventional soda "glass" ring by rubbing the rim with your finger! You'll be rubbing from now until doomsday and get naught but a squeak! If you are ever at a fine restaurant and served soda in a stemmed crystal "glass", the depth is to short for a straw to be useful, and straws are not served (bad enough that you are drinking soda instead of water or wine, let alone slurping it from a straw that is too long for the glass! How gauche (or is that "gosh"?)!

See, I can pick nits, too (or is that "knits"?)!

ROFL

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#47
In reply to #19

Re: Camping Quandary: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 9:17 AM

I have made any cheap drinking glass ring by rubbing the edges, it's easy and works on almost all thin walled glasses! all you have to do is clean the tip of you finger with alchohol and rub away! It works, try it.

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#13

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 4:42 AM

It is not so trivial, i did this many times before while i was hicking.

First you have to full the plastic utensil with water(i mean really full, there must not be any space for air), than by using the paper plate close the top of the plastic cap. You may use some mud to cover the edges of the cap and paper plate to prevent air flow in to the cap.

Then simply put this in to the fire.

You may see that the water will boil and the plastic cap wont demage.

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#14

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 7:23 AM

He set a cup of water on a rock in close proximity to the heat of the fire but not in the fire. The water will keep the cup from burning until it's all boiled off.

Or if he was in a hurry could have cleaned and heated small rocks then droped them into the cups of water to transfer the heat.

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#16

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 8:54 AM

Very simple, fill the paper cup to a liquid level, place egg or liquid food in cup, place in hot coals, heat food. The paper or milk carton will not burn below the water line. Old scout OA trick for Ordeal.

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#18

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 9:14 AM

Thomas, being a former scout and always prepared. Used his own cooking gear that he had brought, Just in case!

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#30
In reply to #18

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 4:25 PM

Yes!! I like your thinking.

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#20

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 9:55 AM

As long as the paper cup is full of water, it can be exposed to a flame without risk of ignition. Water in it's liquid state will only reach 212 F whereas paper ignites at 451 F.

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#33
In reply to #20

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 5:30 PM

I diagnose Bradbury dependence. Different types of paper will ignite anywhere between 424 and 475 0F.

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#22

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 10:45 AM

Here's what REALLY happened:

Roger and Thomas (Tom, to his friends) had prepared their camping equipment the day before. Roger had been using his metal camping cookware in an experiment in determining the threshold wavelengths for the metal surfaces when exposing them to light of certain wavelengths while imposing a retarding electric field and causing electrons to be ejected no more than a certain distance from the surfaces. Not wanting to disturb his experimental set-up for a mere camping expedition, he chose to act ignorant and pack only paper plates and cups as well as plastic utensils.

Tom, on the other hand, was in charge of obtaining the food. Unfortunately, on leaving his penthouse apartment in the high-rise apartment building, the express elevator operated at .8g acceleration, making him sick to his stomach. It didn't help that the operator was grouching that his shift should have been over already, according to his pendulum clock. Being thus unappetized, instead of shopping for fresh meat and vegetables, he decided just to bring along some old freeze-dried food he had leftover from his Boy Scout days. Having time to kill, he called up his other friend John (sometimes known as "Jack") who invited him over to see his new house. Jack put down his phone and tossed his lucky coin to see whether or not he should play a joke on Tom with his concave mirror and candles. It was a sunny day, so he decided he should!

Tom came back from his visit with John/Jack upset that his friend had tried to fool him with the stupid mirror trick. To make matters worse, they were re-tiling the floor in the lobby of his building and Tom, being something of a compulsive neurotic had to cross the lobby on a diagonal line to get to the express elevator, and felt compelled to count every tile his path crossed. If only he could have figured out how may tiles that would be instead of having to count every single one! Fortunately, his father and son were waiting for him and offered him some gum to soothe his nerves. They had just returned from a trip to Puerto Rico, having visited the cities of San Juan and Ponce and described to him the story of the calculation error made years ago when the US took possession and tried to find the latitudinal distance between the two cities. John hated those kind of stories. Why doesn't someone just put those in a blog somewhere and leave me alone, he thought!

He said good night to his family, who then departed (John was divorced and his son lived with "Grandpa". Boy, that explains a lot!), and went into his bedroom to try to get some sleep before the big camp-out the next day. However, it was too cold, since he had forgotten to remove the solar film and the A/C was just set too high for these crisp autumn days. I'll just play my Didgeridoo he thought, since the music helps soothe my nerves and helps me to sleep while I wait for the apartment to warm up a little, but a falling leaf (where did that come from?) covered up and stuck to the end of his instrument, causing John to fly into a rage and smash his Didge against the wall.

The next morning he headed out to meet Roger out in the boonies, expecting to have a good meal, needing only a simple pot to boil water for his Freeze-dried foods. When he found out the Roger had neglected to bring any metal pots or pans he threw the bags of food at him, got in his Range Rover, and drove home. At least, he thought, I can stop at Chez Guest and have a nice meal of classic French cuisine. Alas, when he got there he found that some "Den Mother" had brought a bunch of bratty kids, who were shooting straw wrappers at each other and making the fine crystal stemmed water, er.... soda(!) glasses ring by rubbing their fingers around the rims.

That was, literally, the last straw, and poor John left the building, got into his Range Rover and shot himself with his 9mm Berretta semi-automatic pistol.

What was the velocity of the parabellum round as it entered his cerebrum?

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#25
In reply to #22

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 12:18 PM

A fine example of wordsmanship and all in one breath!

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#26
In reply to #22

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 2:48 PM

What would have happened if his aim was low and he hit the cerebellum with the parabellum??

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#31
In reply to #22

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 4:48 PM

I'm lost. Does Tom become John in the midst of this tale?

John/Tom (whoever) was clearly not a great boy scout, as he may have been physically prepared, but psychologically he was all at 600%s and 700%s. As for being para bellum - no chance. The Beretta may have been real, but his son had long since used all the ammunition in experiments to check the atmospheric drag on his BB gun, and replaced it with fakes.

Meanwhile, 600,000%-miles away in Europe, Blaine was in a tunnel trying to contact base using his long-wave radio...

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#45
In reply to #31

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 9:03 AM

I'm lost. Does Tom become John in the midst of this tale?

Oops! You are right. John/Jack is the mirror guy with the lucky coin. Thomas/Tom is the guy in the high-rise with the Range Rover who kills himself in the end. Unless....they are all the same guy, with multiple personality disorder!

The Beretta may have been real, but his son had long since used all the ammunition in experiments to check the atmospheric drag on his BB gun, and replaced it with fakes.

If by "fakes" you mean blank ammunition, that has gunpowder, but no bullets, as used in movies to make noise and a flash when fired, they are still dangerous at close range when aimed at vital body parts. Although no projectile is fired, a burning paper "wad" and hot gases coming out of the muzzle are at such a high temperature and pressure, they can easily tear through soft tissue, such as a eyes and the human temple (the area of the head immediately in front of and slightly above the ears). In one notorious case in 1984 an actor died while playing "Russian Roulette" with a single blank when he fired directly at his head. The force fractured his skull and sent bone fragments into his brain. He was DOA at the hospital.

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#50
In reply to #45

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 10:35 AM

I meant dummies, or fakes. His son made them surreptitiously in the metalworking class, so they would look like live ammunition. Even Thomas (meeauowee) could see the difference between blanks and live ammo.

Are you certain that Beretta blanks contain a paper wad?

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#54
In reply to #22

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 12:18 PM

That depends. Was it an African or a European parabellum? Indeed, it may well hinge on whether he has an African or a European cerebellum! ;)

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#97
In reply to #22

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/29/2007 5:20 PM

There are no words to descibe my jealousy right now. You got a full on green mention for 'good posting'. Total respecte to you STL for your wit and wisdom !!! Bring on the Kudos !

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#99
In reply to #22

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/30/2007 12:21 PM

6.6 grains of Vihtavouri 3N37 behind 125 grain Round Nose Full Metal Jacket should enter at about 1250 feet per second. More than enough, I'd say

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#23

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 11:13 AM

He simply placed water in a paper cup and put that over fire. The water inside kept the paper from burning. This would be until and if the water did not boil out. At that point the paper cup would burn.

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#27

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 3:37 PM

He set the paper cup, filled with water in the fire and boiled the water. The cup will only burn down to the water level.

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#32

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 5:19 PM

Boiling water in a paper cup is an old Boy Scout trick. You simply place a cup full of water on top of a grill above the flames. The portions of the cup not in contact with the water will burn off, but the portion containting the water will remain intact until the water boils. The water absorbs the heat of the flames through the cup material and keeps the temperature of the material below the combustion point, at least until the water boils when the heat transfer stops.

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#34

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 6:30 PM

I've taught Scouting for years........always demonstrated the phenomenon of boiling water in a paper cup.

Harder today as most paper products are now "coated".

The true paper cup never get above the boiling point of water temp...at the point of contact with the water......a half full cup will burn off down to the water line.

MR. GUY

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#36
In reply to #34

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 6:52 PM

In reply to: I've taught Scouting for years........always demonstrated the phenomenon of boiling water in a paper cup. ......a half full cup will burn off down to the water line. MR. GUY

Although I understand the principles involved, I wonder exactly what sort of paper cup you need. Most paper cups that I have seen consist of a truncated cone with the floor of the cup perhaps 5 mm above the bottom of the walls. What happens to this 5 mm collar of paper when placed in the fire? This part is not cooled by the water contained in the cup and I imagine that it will burn away, at which time the cup will presumably leak, or split when you try to pick it up. Why doesn't this happen, or is there some other readily obtainable design of paper cup that doesn't have the flange at the bottom?
Apteryx

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#38
In reply to #36

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 8:13 PM

This might be a country or regional problem.

When I was a Scoutmaster we had zero problems finding flat bottom paper cups.

The paper cups you describe go with a water cooler. The flat bottom ones were for home use.

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#46
In reply to #38

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 9:17 AM

The paper cups you describe go with a water cooler. The flat bottom ones were for home use.

No, read his post again. He describes a bottom collar of about 5mm. The typical paper "coffee cup" (especially the kind with a folding handle) is of this variety. The type you are thinking of comes to a point on its bottom and cannot be set down at all unless in a holder or placed carefully in a hole.

I think to answer his objections, if the cup is set down on a bed of coals and ash, the raised bottom will still have ample support even after the "collar" burns away. If care is taken and minimum pressure is applied to the cup, the remaining seam should hold the bottom on, at least long enough to transfer the contents.

Alternatively, some bathroom style "Dixie" cups DO have a totally flat bottom as the walls fold under slightly.

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#51
In reply to #46

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 10:36 AM

Dip the base in water at regular intervals while heating

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#35

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 6:33 PM

Simply use the paper cup to boil the water, the high tempurature of the fire is well below what it would take to breach the paper cup as long as there is water inside of it.

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#37

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 7:00 PM

If the freeze-dried camp food came in metallic foil, I might have put it in hot coals with a slit in it and poured water into the slit til the food was hydrated and hot. Wasn't there. Don't know the packaging. Don't know what else was on hand.

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#76
In reply to #37

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 11:07 PM

I agree, any freeze dried food I have ever seen came in foil packaging. Use it to eat out of too. Save the paper cups for a cool beverage.

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#39

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 8:24 PM

Used the paper plates as a container to boil water in. Damn Dude. Let's kill something and eat it.

James

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#40

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 9:43 PM

You can boil water in a paper cup because the water must boil away before the paper cup will burn. thus they were able were able to boil water in paper cups right on the open fire.

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#41

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/27/2007 9:56 PM

The boiling point of water is 100 degrees Celcius, well below the ignition point of paper. As long as the paper plates and cups were kept wet, they will not burn. Stirring the food was done with small branches found within the camping grounds. As a former boy scout, Thomas would be able to recognize which are safe to use for this purpose and which are not.

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#42

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 1:53 AM

Thomas was so upset that he used Rogers skull for a saucepan.

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#49

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 9:54 AM

OK, I gave up with my desperate camping idea.

http://www.yumyum.com/recipe.htm?ID=20331

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1407070

http://www.physics.montana.edu/demonstrations/video/4_thermodynamics/demos/boilingwaterinapapercup.html

Yes, I'm a dirty rotten cheat, but I think this one has been covered ( apart from any innovative ideas. Doesn't that emergency freeze dried stuff come in foil pouches ? Maybe it could be boil-in -the-bag ? Anyway, if they were high enough up they couldn't boil it at a safe temperature anyway. Does anyone seriously believe that just 2 guys first reached the summit of Mount Everest. They never admitted who got there first..... perhaps someone payed a price.

OK, I'll shut up and let you all debate. My camping experience is based upon Yogi cartoons, so I probably don't know.

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#52

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 11:13 AM

Perhaps Freud could have a field day with me but I suspect Roger and Thomas were more than 'friends'. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

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#53
In reply to #52

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 12:10 PM

It is a litle bit odd. In all the best films they have a similar number of girls alongside. A nylon bra would be no good as a cooking vessel but it could make a fine sling-shot if stuck in the wilderness. "Deliverence" could have been so different, so could "Southern Comfort". I'd like to have seen this question delivered as a girl guide one. A sort of Okefenokee jokey, rather than Evergalade blade type one. Some scope for scene setting was missed.

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#59
In reply to #53

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 2:29 PM

"I'd like to have seen this question delivered as a girl guide one."

Do you mean something like this?

Regina and Theresa were camping. When it was time to make dinner, they lit a fire to heat water to mix with the freeze-dried camping food. Regina was in charge of bringing the cooking gear but having never been camping before, mistakenly brought paper plates and cups and plastic utensils. Theresa, a former girl scout, was upset that they weren't prepared, but managed to use what was on hand to boil the water and make dinner. How did she do it?

OR, more realistically, something like this:

Regina and Theresa were camping. Their cabin was well stocked with cooking utensils and the had brought plenty of canned food. When it was time to make dinner however, they realized they had no electric can opener to open the cans of food. Regina was in charge of bringing the can opener but having never been camping before, mistakenly brought a pocket knife her brother had lent her, because he said it had a can opener on it. Regina tried to open the can opener, but broke a nail trying to get it out. Theresa finally got it open, but after dozens of tries, could not get it to move around the can or even pierce the top. Theresa, a former girl scout, was upset that they weren't prepared, but managed to use what was on hand to open the cans and make dinner. How did she do it?

The answer will appear on December 4th (or before), right here on CR4.

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#63
In reply to #59

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 3:30 PM

ROFL. Cars were just not meant for driving over cliffs like Thelma and her other mate did. Let me make an initial guess - they can both multi-task ? I don't know how that would help, but it does seem to be popular wisdom. One of them had a kitchen sink in the hand-bag, or perhaps a multi purpose combi-boiler and tools to rig it into the nearest gas supply. That would probably be my mouth, so I'd best shut up ! How about Ray Mears or that Bear Grylls survival experts tucked away.

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#64
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Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 4:02 PM

More likely she had brought the electric can opener - but there was no supply to the cabin. But she had also borrowed her kid brother's trusty pocket knife, little realizing that he had previously used it to mop up superglue. Dida deedar dedaa

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#66
In reply to #59

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 4:59 PM

Theresa, a former girl scout, was upset that they weren't prepared, but managed to use what was on hand to open the cans and make dinner. How did she do it?

Actually, there can be many right answers to this question. Here are a few:

1. Theresa used her cell phone and credit card to order a pizza, then when it arrived she asked the big, strong, handsome delivery guy if he wouldn't just be a dear and open those pesky cans for her, pwetty, pwetty, pwease? Then she tipped the guy by giving him her (fake) phone number, and stuck the pizza in the fridge for breakfast.

2. Theresa gathered a big pile of leaves and stuck them in the BBQ pit out back. Finding some rubbing alcohol in the first aid kit, she liberally doused a few tampons in the stuff and lighting them on fire with her cigarette lighter, she shoved them under the pile of leaves. The ensuing tremendous cloud of smoke soon attracted the attention of a nearby lonely young forest ranger who investigated to find two extremely attractive (to his lonesome mindset anyway) young ladies in need of some help. Having been a Boy Scout himself, he was prepared, in more ways than one, and used his own Swiss Army knife to open the cans. After being invited to stay for dinner, our single hero managed to satisfy all the other needs of the two hot young women as well, and they, his in return. Let's just say that Theresa had more than just canned "beans and weanies" to eat that night, and Regina got her just desserts! (Nod, nod, wink, wink, say no more, guv!)

3. Theresa set the cans outside for the raccoons, who can get into anything, right? Watching closely, she saw how they picked up the pocket knife can opener and got the tops off, then chased them off before they could eat the food. Ha! Dumb animals, thought Regina, who was also watching out the front window of the cabin, as the rest of the raccoons circled around the back of the cabin, quietly entering through the unlatched screen door and made off with all of boxed cookies and crackers stored on a shelf in the, as yet, unexplored (by Theresa or Regina) back room. Oh yeah. There was an electric can opener back there, too.

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#67
In reply to #66

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 5:13 PM

ROFL !

Even though it sounds a bit laughable, carrying tampons is a recommended way of taking tinder with you. In a similar fashion, condoms have a multitude of uses, not least of which is water carrying. Does anyone else have ingenious portable survival kit ? My knowledge is only based upon TV stuff, but it would be great to here from people who know first hand. Those fire-sticks ( Made from some sort of magnesium) are not so easy to use as they appear. If ever stuck in the wilderness I'd probably opt for a real good knife/machete if I could only have one thing, but what would others have ( apart from Ray Mears or similar ) ?

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#69
In reply to #67

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 7:24 PM

16" at least !

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#70
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Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 7:29 PM

Definitely, unequivocally, without doubt an knife. 8-14" blade. Everything else can be made or found with a good sturdy blade in hand.

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#72
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Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 7:51 PM

I'm with ya all the way CR3. The one piece of vital Kit. Chop trees, make fire, kill fierce animals. You've have just got to have a good blade. At one time it was the boy scouts essential thing 'carry a pen-knife'. May not save you in a survival situation but it would get you locked up in UK now. Whatever happened to those childhood skills. < Kris grouches off in grumpy old man mood > Wah, those days when a knife was a tool, a piece of kit for doing something good with. If we taught kids the real use of a knife maybe we wouldn't have so many social problems. Take 'em out into the woods and learn some self sufficiency. The fierce animals bit was a joke, but hey, if kids could learn how to be able to survive they'd have self respect. Knives would be tools and not weapons.

< I was not sponsored by the NRA for this, just common sense parenting>

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#73
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Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 8:12 PM

Yeah I'm with you. I have 2 boys with me and a third (stepson) at his mom's, all of whom I would like to some day give a nice little pen-knife to. Just as my father and my Grandfather did for me. Of course I guess I will have to wait until they are 18 or face the wrath of the zero tolerance crap that is in place today.

Thanks Kris. Now I am fuming mad. It's your fault. I will somehow punish all of society for what you have done or might do in the future as opposed to altering my own behavior. I shall hold you solely accountable for all infringements to my child's potential well-being whether real or perceived. I think I will try and pass a law that states he MUST wear a helmet when bicycling. But not skateboarding. No, no flotation device when near water law - not yet. No I will not try and mandate some kind of electrical device protection law (the neighbors holier-than-thou attitudes can't penetrate my home so they can't see the kid like when he rides the bike. Yeah I'll go ahead and try pass some others though all 'cuz of you!

What. Better parenting? I don't get it.

cr3

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#74
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Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 9:06 PM

What. Better parenting? I don't get it.

Of course you don't ! As a parent you are not suitable. How deranged could you be that to think that having had a loving relationship, nurtured your children that you would know best ! You damn idiot man, I suppose your wife even thinks she knows how to care for them. It's a bloody good job we have Governments to keep people like you in check. My Cod, next thing you'll be giving them fatherly advice ! You and your wife will see the get schooled and fed each day. You might even give them love and affection. People like you want locking up. Teaching your sons life-skills ? I'm horrified !

OK, look , I'm going to share here, but please don't tell anyone. I let my son ride a bicycle the other day (). OMG the shame. I'm sorry folks, but I admit it. I exposed him to the risk of learning and growing up. I feel like an utter ****** and shall seek counselling. I know, it's shameful. The bruise I found on m own legs when riding a bike should have told me, but well, what can I say, I'm a cad.

<of course I might just mean that the ''authorities' can go **** themselves, but I wouldn't say that.>

With you keeping an eye, them boys will do fine. Keep them other gits at bay is all you need to do.

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#77
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Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 11:10 PM

I knew I could count on you Kris!

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#78
In reply to #77

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 11:23 PM
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#80
In reply to #72

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/29/2007 4:30 AM

"Take 'em out into the woods and learn some self sufficiency."

Do you really mean self sufficiency? If so, will you warn them about gingerbread houses?

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#86
In reply to #80

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/29/2007 10:32 AM

No, I meant take the family with you on camping trips. It's 'walking food' in an emergency. " Care for a nice hot bath dear ? ........."

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#89
In reply to #86

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/29/2007 11:58 AM

No, I meant take the family with you on camping trips. It's 'walking food' in an emergency. " Care for a nice hot bath dear ? ........."

Kris, you are a sicko! And I mean that in the best possible way!

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#92
In reply to #89

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/29/2007 12:21 PM

Well if you were left starving in the wilderness for ages, I wonder what you'd use for a stew-pan ?

"Hey, Roger come and look at this nice fire I lit" <THWACK>. Oh crap, where's the can opener ?

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#93
In reply to #92

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/29/2007 1:28 PM

"Hey, Roger come and look at this nice fire I lit" <THWACK>. Oh crap, where's the can opener ?

You are a bloodthirsty ghoul, aren't you, old boy? Maybe this should be your new Avatar?

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#95
In reply to #93

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/29/2007 3:49 PM

You and RMr TB are correct. Somewhere I heard a story of desperation and cannibalism. Can't think where . Yet.......

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#96
In reply to #95

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/29/2007 4:43 PM

Oh, desperation and cannibalism definitely go hand-in-hand, or is it hand-to-mouth?

ROFL

From the Wikipedia article on Cannibalism:

Cannibalism by the starving

Cannibalism is also sometimes practised as a last resort by people suffering from famine. In the US, the group of settlers known as the Donner party resorted to cannibalism while snowbound in the mountains for the winter. The last survivors of Sir John Franklin's Expedition were found to have resorted to cannibalism in their final push across King William Island towards the Back River.[33] There are disputed claims that cannibalism was widespread during the famine in Ukraine in the 1930s, during the Siege of Leningrad in World War II,[34][35] and during the Chinese Civil War and the Great Leap Forward in the People's Republic of China. There were also rumors of several cannibalism outbreaks during World War II in the concentration camps where the Jews were malnourished. Cannibalism was also practised by Japanese troops as recently as World War II in the Pacific theater.[36] A more recent example is of leaked stories from North Korean refugees of cannibalism practised during and after a famine that occurred sometime between 1995 and 1997.[37]

Lowell Thomas records the cannibalisation of some of the surviving crew members of the Dumaru after the ship exploded and sank during the First World War in his book, The Wreck of the Dumaru (1930).

Documentary and forensic evidence supports eyewitness accounts of cannibalism by Japanese troops during World War II. This practice was resorted to when food ran out, with Japanese soldiers killing and eating each other when enemy civilians were not available. A well-documented case occurred in Chichi Jima in 1945, when Japanese soldiers killed and ate eight downed American airmen. This case was investigated in 1947 in a war-crimes trial, and of 30 Japanese soldiers prosecuted, five (Maj. Matoba, Gen. Tachibana, Adm. Mori, Capt. Yoshii and Dr. Teraki) were found guilty and hanged.

When Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571 crashed into the Andes on October 13, 1972, the survivors resorted to eating the deceased during their 72 days in the mountains. Their story was later recounted in the books Alive: The Story of the Andes Survivors and Miracle in the Andes as well as the film Alive by Frank Marshall and the documentary Alive: 20 Years Later.

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#101
In reply to #96

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

12/02/2007 10:53 PM

Donner, party of five, Your table is ready.

I'm sorry.

Donner, party of four your table is ready.

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#104
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Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

12/03/2007 6:46 AM

Donner Kebab, anyone?

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#94
In reply to #69

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/29/2007 2:03 PM

I was thinking more on the lines of this!

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#98
In reply to #94

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/29/2007 5:26 PM

Quoting Crocodile Dundee: "Now THAT'S a knife!"

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#71
In reply to #59

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/28/2007 7:32 PM

You certainly are getting to be a bit sarcastic now!!

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#84
In reply to #71

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/29/2007 9:02 AM

I prefer the term satire!

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#85
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Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/29/2007 9:19 AM

Shall we compromise on sartciraestic?

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#87
In reply to #85

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/29/2007 10:40 AM

I'll get panned for this ;

It's ART you heathens. If it was mine I'd have censored the mid section. And before anyone says so, it was depicted small with intent - to make one concentrate upon the other features. Mrs Skwirrel believes it anyway.

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#88
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Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/29/2007 11:55 AM

I'll get panned for this ;

No, no! Satire, not satyr!

Hmmm, this puts a whole new light on the character "Peter Pan"! I understood the "Pan" reference in the name, but why "Peter", and not "Tom", "Dick", or "Harry Pan"?

Although "John Thomas Pan" might work equally well for you Brits!

ROFL

Interesting that "Peter Pan" was a little boy who never grew up , while the mythic "Pan" was a Satyr, and we all know what Satyrs are interested in , and I am not talking about that darn flute! There is even a term derived from the same Greek word as "satyr", which is "satyriasis". But I'll let you look that one up!

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#90
In reply to #88

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/29/2007 12:11 PM

Are we taking this too alliterally.

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#91
In reply to #88

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

11/29/2007 12:15 PM

You missed one ! ( that has so many bad connotation it should be on Andy's new thread - PLUG PLUG people ! I meant his thread on language, not just my bath thread. Go find, it's good.)

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#102
In reply to #59

Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

12/02/2007 11:14 PM

This one is a lot easier. Regina used her cell phone to call Kris. Kris rushed over with his huge copper battery and fired up the microwave oven.

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#103
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Re: Camping Quandry: Newsletter Challenge (11/27/07)

12/03/2007 4:26 AM

I'd need some help to keep switching it around quick to get some ac !

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