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Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

Posted January 04, 2009 5:01 PM

Happy New Year and welcome to the December edition of Monthly Challenge Question from Specs & Techs by GlobalSpec:

It is winter in the Northeast, and you are enjoying a clear and sunny day out in the snow. What is the color of your shadow?

And the Answer is...

The snow not under your shadow is white because it is hit directly by the sun, so its color is the color of the sun (white, or more precise, yellow white). The snow covered by your shadow does not get any direct light from the sun. It is illuminated by the light coming from the sky. In a clear and sunny day the sky is blue (or a variation of this color). Therefore, the snow covered by your shadow looks blue.

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#59
In reply to #48
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/07/2009 7:04 AM

Nice point - when the snow is deep enough (as happens in parts of the NE USA), light scattering through the snow from around the shadow will have a slight blue tinge. The effect becomes very visible in glacier caves and ice tunnels However, the properties of (relatively young) surface snow mean that back-scatter is very high compared to the absorption, so I believe that skylight will easily dominate.

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#53

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/07/2009 5:38 AM

Hi everyone. It is my first post here, and I have never been in Northeast of US, but I can guess, that here in Poland we can have similar "experimental" conditions.

My first doubt is about definition of colour. It is what we see, or it is what we can measure (predominant wavelength)?

There is no answer for the colour we see, because our eyes (and brain) are not absolute like, for example, measurement devices. They interprete the image by comparising parts of it. I mean, that if we would look on our shadow surrounded by directly illuminated (by sun) snow the shadow should appear black, and snow probably yellowish. If there will be more shodowed areas, the eyes will adopt to less light and we will see grey, or blue shadow -- in comaprison to directly illuminated areas. If all we can see is in shadow - after a short while the snow will be white (because the brain knows IT IS WHITE and corrects the changes in colour caused by different illumination).

White illumination can be defined by "illumination with the same intesity for each wavelength within the visible spectrum". This is physical definition.

But our eyes and brain, knowing that something is white, can make some corrections to "not really white" illumination. Thats why we will always say that paper is white, regardless of the illumination light (tungsten, fluorescent, shadow, sunlight) and regardless of the fact, that measured spectra of reflected (from this paper) light can be completely different.

The other thing will be, if we would like to define colour of the shadow by the measured spectrum. It will definitly have blue colour. It is easy to check by making two photos of sunlighted and shadowed snow. The colour woud be different (yellow and blue)

Those with more sofisticated displays can play with "colour temperature". It simulates different types of illumination, the displayed white colour is the same as ilumination light. 2500K simulates tungsten or sunlight. >5000K is comparable to shadow. By changing it quickly you can see changes of white areas from yellow to blue. But after working for a few minutes with one of this temepratures the white will seem white.

WOW, huge post for the beginning:-) I hope it is understandable:-)

My short answer is:

1. For our eyes - it depends - black, grey, white, sometimes slightly blue

2. For measurement devices - slightly blue

Chris

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#55
In reply to #53

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/07/2009 5:55 AM

huge post for the beginning....

....but a good one !

Sign up Chris, it's fairly easy and you get extra features such as being able to use the Private Messaging system, voting, and getting mail notifications of discussions.

Kris

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#56
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/07/2009 6:29 AM

Hi again, this time as registered user.
This site seems to be a nice place for discussions and brain training:-)
I hope to submit some useful comments and answers for the challenges in the future.
Chris

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#58
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/07/2009 6:53 AM

Welcome: GA (Good Answer) for post #53:-

http://cr4.globalspec.com/comment/328060/Re-Winter-Shadow-Newsletter-Challenge-01-06-09

submitted as guest.

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#69
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/07/2009 2:19 PM

Cleverly thought of, Randall ! I added as well.

Welcome Chris .

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#61
In reply to #53

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/07/2009 8:03 AM

Interesting comment, but idiosyncratic about the way that we correct for colour illumination. It is not that we "know" that the material is white;what happens is that we largely* judge colour according to context. If the weighted average of what we see has a yellow tinge, we will correct for that - but we will not correct for shining a blue light onto white paper when other objects are normally illuminated, however well we know the paper is white. With the shadow in the snow scene, the predominant background is the fully lit snow, and this is the context from which we judge the colour of the shadow. And this correlates with those respondents who have been in a position to go out and look at shadows in snow on a clear day - who reported that they see blue.

Fyz

*There are limits to this - we need some balance to the light in each of our areas of spectral sensitivity. One example is that we always perceive low-pressure sodium lighting as yellow until it gets so dim that we have no colour vision. Given that clear daytime brightness is sufficient for colour vision and the lack of reds in light from the sky, I imagine that we will normally see the shadow as predominantly blue (possibly purplish when the sun is low - as might be caused by the higher penetration of red and subsequent scattering from stratospheric ice)

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#65
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/07/2009 8:35 AM

You are absolutely right.

I simplified it too much. Correcting for the average colour (or illumination) is the main process. But many information about what we see can be "guessed" using our experience (knowledge). Thats why looking with one eye we can approximate the distance from the object knowing its dimesions (normally distance is "calculated" from the differences in images seen by eyes, or the angles of seeing the object). Thats probably why I also suggested this for colour correction.
Nevertheless the process you described in details is the most important one.

thanks, Chris

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#71
In reply to #53

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/07/2009 2:30 PM

Nice answer I gave it a GA. Everyone should keep in mind if you see yellow snow no matter how yellow it is, don't eat it.

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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/07/2009 12:35 PM

No one has mentioned the effects of perihelion. Even though the Northern Hemisphere is tilted away from the sun, the Earth is at or near it's closest point to the sun. So the sunlight can be brighter than in summer. The change in angle and the decreased amount of daily sunlight is what brings the cold temperatures that make snow possible.

Has anyone considered this? I tried searching for perihelion and shadow together, but didn't find anything useful for this discussion. Maybe someone else will have better results.

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#76

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/08/2009 9:25 AM

So hot discuss, but what meaning is the top words:

The Answer will be posted right here on CR4 on January 6th.

which January 6th?

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#77
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/08/2009 9:33 AM

Hi cnpower, Don't you see there were a lot of answers posted already! LOL.

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#78
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/08/2009 9:54 AM

Apparently they're calculating from the Chinese New Year, since by the Gregorian calendar the 6th was two days ago...

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#79
In reply to #76

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/08/2009 10:50 AM

Ah,

Only the Shadow knows for sure..............(play the intro music now). All you young engineers will probably not know that saying, but us old guy's that used to listen to radio.........

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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/08/2009 1:04 PM

Good question. The bubbles question stated that, "The Answer will be posted right here", but it never was.

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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/08/2009 12:17 PM
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/08/2009 12:22 PM

perfect!

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#93
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/08/2009 1:55 PM

WHAT THE??????

abadee, abadee, abadeee uh thats all folks.......

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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/08/2009 2:50 PM
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#115

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/10/2009 7:23 AM

Not sure really. It was so sunny, I was wearing my BLUE blocker sun glasses !

Bill B

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#116

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/13/2009 2:19 PM

This question can have no absolute answer. Sneaky!

The spectral composition of "white" -- and the definition of any color -- varies from light source to light source. Modern digital cameras not only have tungsten and outdoor settings; they have different color compensation (white balance) settings for tungsten, sunlight, overcast, shade, fluorescent, and flash bulb, as well as a capability to roll your own white balance for subjects lit by multiple sources.

Due to the blue sky, the shadow will be bluer than the directly sunlit white snow. Conversely, the direct sunlit snow can just as accurately be considered redder than the indirectly lit white (gray) shadow.

Taking a picture of same: if the subject of the picture is directly lit, then the shadow is bluish. But if the shadow (or an object within the shadow) is the subject, then the nearby directly-lit snow is yellowish.

-Tom Williams

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#117
In reply to #116

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/13/2009 3:38 PM

Excellent so far as it goes - but how in context would your eye perceive it?

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#118

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/13/2009 5:14 PM

As I write this entry the current temp is -31C/-23F (heading to an overnight low of -34C/-29F). So rather than go out and prove any one theory, I'll curl up with a single malt, and read all the very good answers.

I have one relavant experience to relate: I bought a pair of high end goggles for snowboarding that were touted as being superior because the tint was aimed to enhance blue light. And as it turned out, the best thing about them was the way they pick up terrain features in the shadows. Especially when travelling from full light to full shadow.

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#121
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/13/2009 10:23 PM

-34C.....is that all? It's -35 here and I'm firing up the sauna and going swimming. You Timmins guys are soft.

Joking aside be carefull with some of the tinted goggles that are out there. The lack of light in some will make the iris of your eye expand allowing UV (A & B) to enter which can cause severe damage to the retina.

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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/15/2009 11:18 AM

You sauna before you go swimming in Jan???? Must be a SE Ont thing.

I never connected it before, but I do have big time focus problems after a day on the slopes, regardless of how bright it was. I just chalked it up to age and lots of fresh air. Brilliant!

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#139
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/15/2009 11:41 AM

Yup......hot sauna and a fast dip or just jump into the snow...picked it up off the Finns in Porquois Junction. Really good for the circulation. If you're going to do it start off slow.

Best colour is amber or yellow for eyeglasses. Easy on the eyes and good contrast in snow. Yellow filters out UV A. Better yet is to find some that are UV A & B filtered.

Worst is not in direct sunlight but rather on a light overcast day.

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#141
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/15/2009 12:39 PM

Are you implying that, any idea you pick up there, you have to ask yourself "Pourquois?"?
But perhaps "Pourqui?" would be even better

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#144
In reply to #141

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/15/2009 12:50 PM

Are you a puzzled granma ?

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#146
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/15/2009 3:35 PM

One idea Id've loved to have picked up is to have staked a few acres around Porquois which are of some of the richest gold fields up there.

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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/15/2009 4:22 PM

Huh - ain't you got enough - duck with golden beak.
(Just jealous)

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#140
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/15/2009 12:33 PM

Don't sound so surprised - there's nothing Ducky's relatives like better for winter relaxation than swimming round the pond to keep it clear of ice. Clearly, the sauna's just a latter-day refinement.

And yes, all that experience with the effects of sunning yourself in the snow has sharpened his appreciation of what's useful for the auld ayes.

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#148
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/15/2009 4:29 PM

My relativistic equation for winter refinement.....THE POND.

I have another for summer.

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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/15/2009 4:37 PM

Great flowers for -35OC. Looks to include geraniums and busy lizzies to misname but two.

But I really like the blue shadow in the water (whoops, was that almost on-topic?). Even my garden doesn't run to such refinements
What well-healed establishment provided the photo-opportunity?

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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/15/2009 5:08 PM

Begonias.......and that is a very small pond in the solarium/greenhouse I built. It acts like a solar collector on sunny days....even at -35'C....facing WSW.

Thanks for the compliment. I'll pass it on to Mrs.Greenthumb Duck. She'll be pleased to know someone thinks we're well healed.

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#153
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/16/2009 9:09 AM

Should that sort of double-barrelled name be hyphenated? (Guess we should consult KrisDel on that one, so long as their fees aren't too unreasonable)

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#154
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/17/2009 3:57 AM

"Haberniated". One tin of Tuna, and a sack of Cashew. Pay up, or you get sent more of the same.

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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/15/2009 4:41 PM

Presumably it is as cool and refreshing as this one is warm and inviting?

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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/15/2009 5:15 PM

Yep........though I have been to the feeder streams in Florida and they're amazing to swim and dive in. Acidic water feels great. Ponce de Leon had the right idea.

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#119

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/13/2009 7:27 PM

Just a few thoughts on the subject, if ones back is turned to the sun looking at ones shadow, then a lot of reflective light off the snow will be entering the eye, causing the iris to become very small, will this reduced aperture let more of the shorter light waves pass than the longer ones? And to be pedantic I think Fyz should put some cloths on instead of standing around letting the sun shine though him, how much get through I suppose depends on the direction he is facing.

Regards JD.

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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/14/2009 6:03 AM

He he.

Lest you mislead the innocent - the smallest aperture that has been reported for a shut-down human iris is about 0.5-mm* - nearly two orders of magnitude larger than would be required for it to act as any kind of filter.
*Varies between individuals - possibly also with age. Of course, this limitation is the main basis for the sunglasses industry...

Then - what sort of fabrics do you wear? If they will hang reasonably, I'd love to use them for curtains, as the supposedly opaque ones I bought aren't - plus they won't hang properly.
(I already said that the amount of light penetrating the body [clothed or otherwise - brrr] was trivial in this context...)

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#120

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/13/2009 9:45 PM

A shadow is the lack of light, therefore it would be no colour. I am unable to test this theory in our part of Australia, because if it did in fact snow here, the world is truly in a lot of trouble.

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#123

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/14/2009 7:32 AM

As stated elsewhere, the colour of light reflected from the shaded region will depend on a number of factors - time of day, ground topography. What I haven't yet seen is an attempt to gauge how much this colour can depend on reflection from the clothing that "you" are wearing.

If we take mid-winter, midday somewhere in the midst of the N.E USA, and on flat ground, the shadow will be approximately twice as long as you are tall.
The shaded side of your clothing will be illuminated by skylight and by reflection from the snow; assuming ideally white snow, and ignoring the effect of lack of light reflected from the shaded region, the level received from the snow will be about half that falling on the snow. Suppose you are wearing white clothing, the level reflected back to the shaded region will depend on the solid angle that you subtend there. Near your feet this will again be in the order of 1/2 (albeit of a significantly reduced level), but at your head's shadow it will have reduced to about 3%.
So, overall, the maximum contribution within your shadow of light from your clothing will vary between about 10% (near, but not directly at, your feet) and 1% of the incoming light.
. We may compare this with the skylight in the mid-blue region - just under half of the incoming blue light from the sun will have been scattered, and just under half of the scattered light will reach the ground; so, the shadow will receive about 1/3 of the blue-light intensity of the fully illuminated snow. In the absence of other reflected light from clothing, colour contrast effects should mean that the shadow appears blue. But the colour of your very bright clothing can potentially modify the appearance of the shadow in the region between your knees and stomach towards pink or turquoise.

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#124
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/14/2009 8:18 AM

I do appreciate all your well argued reasonings over this thread. Just for my education, could you please explain me in a few words(if it possible) - what does it mean to be colorless? As I could notice or/and interpret some part of cr4 members referred to colorlessness as a blackness, another part as transparency third one as opacity.

Thank you,

caramba.

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#125
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/14/2009 9:23 AM

I would say, that colourless means white, grey or black - the spectrum of light is flat (stright horizontal line) meaning the same intensity for each wavelength (or frequency as you wish). Something similar to what is called "white noise" in electronics.


But it is not true if we want to define, what we see as colourless. There are three different colour sensitive cells in the human eye, sensitive in red, green and blue region of spectra. If the response from each one is the same - we see black/grey/white (depending on the intensity). But the iluminating spectrum does not have to be flat (see for example spectra of white LED, or white mercury bulbs). Thats a very short an simplified explanation, see #61 for the interesting comment on "automatic" colour correction made by our eyes and brain.

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#126
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/14/2009 10:19 AM

It very much depends on context. In most instances, it would mean near-perfect transparency, like quartz glass. But it also could mean a total lack of light (black) as in a deep cave or mine. It also can mean equal intensities of all wavelengths (white) light. It has to be interpreted by the usage.

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#129
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/14/2009 4:05 PM

Where does Iceland Spar fit in ?

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#130
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/14/2009 5:10 PM

Our local grocer changed its 'symbol group' from Spar to Nisa some years ago - and I think you know what happened to Iceland.

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#134
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/15/2009 2:08 AM

what happened to Iceland..

....do you mean the possibilty of another cod war to get money, or taking over Frank W's ? Fear not for your local grocer, I'm sure Tesco Express will offer him/her a job. Gordy is on the case, so all will be well.

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#136
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/15/2009 7:06 AM

Cod bless him............

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#143
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/15/2009 12:43 PM

.....and forgive Tony the stretch mark he left in his cheek.

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#137
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/15/2009 8:02 AM

They said they could negotiate a better deal through Nisa.
But we don't need another Tesco around here - we already have an accessible Sainsbury to keep Waitrose on their toes (and the RR out)

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#142
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/15/2009 12:42 PM

"We don't need another Tesco "

If Sainsbury/Asda/QuckyMart or anyone uses this, I want commision !

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#145
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/15/2009 1:55 PM

You'll have to nick in some for Tina, don't forget!

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#131
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/14/2009 6:03 PM

It doubles as a navigation device...

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#132
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/14/2009 6:57 PM

Absolutely right. Though one property is polarization the ability of this mineral to split images into separate parts resulted in the making of the Roelofs prism which is used to either calibrate surveying instruments or determine geographic position by using sun shots. It was an invaluable instrument to those who were far in the field.

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#127
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/14/2009 10:40 AM

Essentially, I agree with both EnviroMan and kajot - but with one partial exception: the term "white" when applied to a light source either requires a reference or is at best a very vague descriptor. So, returning to "colourless":

Applied to a material or a system, "colourless" always means that the spectral power distribution of the light re-emitted is the same as the incoming light. So in principle it can be used for windows or scatters, be they white or grey (as black is in reality only ever dark-grey, that too)

Applied to a light source or colour of reflected lightt, colourless can only mean either:
a) that the colour essentially is the same as either a stated reference or one that appears obvious (for the case of the light emitted by the shadow, that would be the surrounding snow; for light emitted by lamps a specific version of white could )
b) that the intensity is insufficient for us to perceive colour (rarely)

When used for light sources, "white" gets even more confusing...

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#128
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/14/2009 2:05 PM

I'm so grateful to Physicist, EnviroMan and kajot for very detailed answers on my specific ques.

Agreed with EnviroMan's "context" and with Physicist's "applied material or system" as well as with kajot's ""automatic" colour correction made by our eyes and brain".

From elementary school course I could recall only about misconception of ancient people(Pluto and others) where eyes were considering as a light sources.

I'm not savvy in optic in no way unless I had 10 y experience in printing press business. It's so specific experience as printmen being very pragmatic people use features of so subjective and restricted abilities of color perception only for their business wellbeing.

From above I conclude (for myself). Before any color devoted discussion is getting started participants should come to shared point(s).

Anyway I've truly enjoyed to observe the development of this thread which putted in good order my before chaotically arranged and biased knowledges of that. Neither Google nor wiki can substitute alive conversation.

Thanks again.

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#155

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/20/2009 11:53 AM

Since it is a clear day, the blue of the sky will reflect off the snow. Since your body has created a show for the direct sunlight, the reds and yellows from the sun will be blocked so the color effect of the shadow will be blue. Combined with the white snow and we have a bluish white (or cold white) shadow. Estimated color temperature of the shadow will be between 6000 and 8000K.

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#156

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/20/2009 12:55 PM

I believe a very light violet color

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#157
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/20/2009 1:18 PM

It's terms playing. VERY LIGHT violet color = strong white with subtle violet hint = strong black lighted up by very light violet..=... etc

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#158

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/20/2009 6:15 PM

I'm beginning to suspect that the surface quality of the snow will have an effect. Snowflakes are assemblies of ice crystals. Everyone who has stepped outside, or even just looked outside on a sunny day at a snow-covered area knows how reflective snow is. Sunlight in a the area of a shadow will still be reflected in a somewhat diffuse pattern due to the crystalline structure of the snow.

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#159

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/21/2009 1:35 AM

Your shadow will be yellow.

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#160

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/21/2009 9:17 AM

Shadows are shades of blue, have a blue tone added to whatever color they are. Bottom line is blue. Snow will be blue, the color of the second brightest light, the sky.

Barry

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#161

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/21/2009 4:21 PM

First, in the Northeast on a bright sunny day, it is too freakin' bright to see anything out in the snow (if there is a shadow in the snow and no one can see it...).

Second, with all the mounds of plowed and shoveled snow, there is so much solar reflection that there is a good chance there is no shadow.

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#162

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/27/2009 11:30 AM

There is no color associated with a shadow as it is caused by the absents of light striking the surface as that light has been absorbed or reflected.

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#164

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/27/2009 2:56 PM

The shadow, being the blockage of light, has no color. Residual light might allow us to see some of the coloring of the shadowed material.

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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/27/2009 3:58 PM

Would it make a difference if it was winter in the Northwest? Does geography (other than latitude) make a difference?

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#166
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/27/2009 4:35 PM

You mean other than the obvious, that the farther south you go, the less snow you'll likely see? It shouldn't.

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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/27/2009 4:48 PM

Actually, the relative amount of light and the relative colours of sun and sky both vary. Both latitude and altitude make significant differences - as do topography (reflection from other snow), time of day, and possibly snow depth.

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#168
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/27/2009 4:53 PM

Significant enough to be detectable to the average human eye? I've been a lot of places, and have pretty good vision (no color blindness either), and without some kind of instrumentation I don't think I'd notice.

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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/27/2009 5:02 PM

You probably wouldn't notice the colour of the light itself, because your eye and brain adapt to that. But I'm sure you've seen pale blue skies in some places and times, and deep blue skies in others (you may even have heard of "azure skies" which not is merely a marketing myth). Then of course there are "red skies at night" which may appear to be clear but are usually the result of at least a light haze.
You'd certainly see an apparent difference in the colour of the shadows - if you ever looked (most people don't).

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#171
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/27/2009 5:09 PM

I have noticed sky color differences, and I have also noticed that in brighter sun (as in the tropics) shadows appear darker - blacker - so perhaps you are correct. I've also noted differences in the apparent color of ocean water based on both the depth and the sky condition (clear vs cloudy) that is likely a similar phenomenon.

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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/27/2009 5:08 PM

Can't help ya. No Snow here in Florida!

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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

01/28/2009 2:30 AM
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

02/21/2009 9:44 AM

The area of your shadow would be illuminated by the sky, and perhaps any adjacent walls/whatever that would contribute their own color.

So, if you laid down with your head in someone's shadow, looking up, your eyes (your color detectors) would fill with blue sky. If you were near a yellow wall that was in full sun, you could see that yellow too, added to the blue.

100% Illumination - Solar Illumination = Ambient/Diffuse Illumination. In this case, primarily blue from the sky.

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#175

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

02/21/2009 2:11 PM

The Answer will be posted right here on CR4 on February 6th.

????

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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

02/21/2009 2:12 PM
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

02/21/2009 2:13 PM
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#178

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

02/21/2009 2:16 PM

Now is the winter of our discontent,
Made inglorious spring by someone in Troy

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#179

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

02/21/2009 2:19 PM

Aw, c'mon guys !

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#180

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

02/21/2009 2:23 PM

I'm geting all slushy now

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#181

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

02/21/2009 2:29 PM

It'll be a lot less painful to just tell me something, anything, before I have to go through all the colours.

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#182

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

02/27/2009 2:53 AM

All that waiting, Kris, and.....

the sky is blue (or a variation of this color). Therefore, the snow covered by your shadow looks blue

Variation ?????

Since I'm the only fool following this, I hereby declare the variation was green, and thus the shadow is also green. The original question made no mention of blue sky.

"In..." - even I wouldn't have written that I'm sure the sky can't be in a day

Oh well, have another.

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#183
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

02/27/2009 7:17 AM

Reminder of what BS really stands for (Have another nice day)
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#184
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

02/27/2009 7:57 AM

It's part of my Obama tribute act. Don't you recall my recent pic.....

Anyways, go amuse yourself with this fantastic problem, the second part of which remains unsolved ;

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/33848/Dice-problem

After that, cut along and get me some muffins, else you'll get a damn good thrashing.

By next tag-line will be much more subtle.........

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#185
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

02/27/2009 9:59 AM

Proving the maximal situation (e.g. 4096 sub-cubes requiring 12 cuts) would be quite straightforward. However, submaximal situations require attention to the details of dependencies (the implications of 'you can't cut two orthogonal sides simultaneously'), which renders an otherwise simple proof tedious. I fear that it will end up with induction, which is not interesting. So it won't happen unless I think of something more elegant .

[The problem of course is the constraint of zero waste. If you were happy to have smaller cubes and some wasteage, you could get up to 784 equal cubes using just ten cuts.]

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#186
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

02/27/2009 1:27 PM

Oh go on, give me an argument. You asked me to.

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#187
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

02/27/2009 4:09 PM

You're right - it shows the start of a process of induction - but only waves its arms at the tricky bits. I would have liked to do it by "total surface area of cuts" - but so far the argument is comparably full of holes (puns intended)

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#188
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

02/28/2009 3:14 AM

....sort of "death by a thousand cuts". There's probably a terribly bad economics joke in that, but it's too early.

Do you keep any pets ? I'm considering working up another little tease, though equines would be too obvious to include. My own preference would be a canary, although I feel a cat (white) would be suitable for yourself. Any allergies don't matter, because my intended menagerie is going to be very jumbled up. Very. It's a sort of occupational-hazard based thing

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#189
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

02/28/2009 6:53 AM

I don't know why you want to know, but in case it helps: my wife keeps kats, the 's' being another story that's not worth telling. Our outside pets include about a dozen pheasants, a family of moorhens, a few robins, and more hedge-sparrows than you could shake a tablecloth at. (N.B. apart from the miscoloured squirrels, the other outside creatures are too boring, too shy, or too independent to call pets)

Overnight (yes, you are allowed to feel sorry for me) I realised that I could find a way to ignore the extraneous detail - and this makes the proof of the dissection quite straightforward (though doubtless I'll fail to make the simplicity properly apparent once the necessary number stuff is included). I'll submit it when I have leasure to edit it properly.

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#190
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

02/28/2009 7:19 AM

The pheasants sound interesting. No matter how hard I try to remember the obvious difference, I always muddle up moorhens and coots. Hedgehogs like the clutter of leaves and twigs that carpet my garden, which is an excellent excuse not to tidy it up.

Please accept my apologies for causing any pericombobulation while you were asleep.

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#191
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

02/28/2009 11:44 AM

One thing at a time:
Come the summer the peasants will try to eat out of our hands when we sit on the terrace.
A coot "eats shoots and leaves". It has a white forehead and beak. My way to remember the difference is that a moorhen is moor colourful. But what I really like about moorhens is that they are a kind of avian hedgehog, as their diet includes insects and slugs. (The authentic hedgehogs love the log piles and the bonfire heap, which they seem to share with the frogs; so I can't fire it up anytime between November and the end of March).

I don't recollect combobulating any more peris than normal last night - but maybe I was sleep-mixing anyway, as I did notice a few crushed metaphores lying in the Kenwood this morning.

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#192
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

03/01/2009 3:22 AM

I like the coot's one ! Very good indeed, though I'll doubtless one day find myself looking at one and wondering why I'm think about banks. It'll come back when they have me trussed up

My neighbours would go mad if they saw me lighting up a bonfire - they're rather partial to the hedgehogs visiting them and their pristine garden. It's astonishing how well they can climb, and they can run almost faster then I can !

Sounds like you live in the countryside. Mad rooks and all that.

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#193
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

03/02/2009 11:34 AM

"they can run almost faster then I can" - are you really that unfit?

Plenty of rooks in the ash trees (many years ago we adopted one that had survived when the nest fell after a storm; in late spring it tried to feed us through the ear, then one day it joined a flock and flew away).

But we still have neighbours. (I prefer interacting with people to be a matter of choice).

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#196
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

03/02/2009 3:24 PM

You've clearly not seen Sonic ! Anyway, ≈2m/s isn't bad, especially if scaled up; I make that 7.2 kph. If, as a very rough approximation, a human has legs 10 times longer, then the hog is doing the equivalent of a stonking great 72 kph !

Neighbours can be a drag, but it's luck of the draw really (unless you own several thousand acres). I find family more irritating, since you don't get to choose them, but again it's luck of the draw. If CR4 had a 'miserable old git' badge, I'd be tempted to wear it. It would be a little bit untrue, but I feel a certain affinity with the likes of Victor Meldrew.

I must away to discover how ash trees fly........

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#198
In reply to #196

Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

03/03/2009 4:55 AM

No M.O.G. badge needed (Del please note) - other than in my murky avatar, people can see me coming. Maybe you could design one for nutkin?

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#199
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

03/03/2009 6:27 AM

Will your picture glow all red if you get excited ? I gave up trying to figure such things after current buns. As for my own morphings, it's all explained in the book.

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#200
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

03/03/2009 11:53 AM

If you're properly colourblind you can imagine that it already has

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#201
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

03/03/2009 4:01 PM

Trust me, it takes very little for my imagination to run riot ! I'll just print your picture out, and try to remember how we separated out all the colours from ink at Skool.

The New challenge is a yawn - seems very similar to something posed by Ejay Do you have any nice ones (like the pyramid dissection) in your stash of knowledge ? Even my animal related thing would have been more entertaining than arguing the toss over light again. It might get answered early, but at least those who wanted to could print it off and solve at leisure. S'pose I can't grumble if I don't offer anything up myself, but....what the heck, I just like grumbling. Something using microwaves just came to mind - I must go put on my thinking hat............

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#202
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Re: Winter Shadow: Newsletter Challenge (01/06/09)

03/04/2009 5:31 AM

Here's a good one: not really suitable for a challenge question because once it's solved it's done.

Nearly everyone has seen the problem where you have to draw 4 straight lines through a matrix of 9 (3x3 dots) without taking the pencil off the paper and without retracing any lines.

Can you see these dots? If you haven't seen it before and can't work it out, I guess I could give you the solution.

This ones a bit trickier three by four square matrix of dots: five lines PLUS you have to finish where you started. All the other obvious rules apply (the dots are infinitely small, and the lines are not infinitely long):-

Have fun.

Randall

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