Experience: A Lost Art?

Loss of Institutional Memory will result in catastrophic events from time to time. So at least you know you have a problem. Henry Petroski who wrote Pushing the Envelope tells the story of why bonfire builders died. What exactly are you asking? If you are using tools that only experienced people know how to use, and are trained to use tools you know how to use, but don't have, then you may well have a very serious problem, since then you have a situation where nobody knows how to make anything work. Just a WAG, or Wild Ass Guess.

This is the saddest thing I heard. Wonder which gunks gave it off topic. I reversed one point. Your point is very relevant.

I have excellent papers. It was useful for the first job. No one ever looked at it again in my 35 years as a machine designer. Subsequent jobs want to use your Experience and your capability to learn and innovate. That paper gave me a good foundation but the structure I am building is based on experience and what I humbly learnt from innumerable people like you to whom I am eternally grateful.

I worked in Windsor Canada for six years and I can empathise with you. Move over to the US, they are far more appreciative to talent.

I envy you for your skills for I cannot even fix a leaky faucet due to my lack of experience having lived most of my life in India where someone else does the fixing.

I have read about the Jewish community that they encourage everyman to learn a skill which he can do with his hand because in times of adversity that will tide you by and no papers will help then. Even the great philosopher Spinoza was a skilled watchmaker and would augment his income with it. I wish you all the best.

Thanks for the kind words, i wish I could move but unfortunately the current free trade rules are against me, unless i can find a US company who will sponsor a green card.

When you add the current economic environment moving to the US is next to impossible, I will have to be happy with visiting.

thanks again.

Only a fool would take less money, yes not a not a nice answer but the end of the day people are always going to go to work for the $$$ and not the pat on the back, I once told an employer that was 2 days late paying me that they had only one responsablity to me and that was to pay me on time every time ... He looked at me and said that was a 'sic' attitude to which I replied as much as I enjoyed the job but every single employee comes to work not for charity nor a pat on the back nor a since of acheivement but for the pay, as if you do not get paid you can not eat.... Months later I wondered by to just to say hello to my amazement he was signing pay cheques 2 days before payday, so by my leaving and saying it was about the money sent the message to him... I would suggest you look at it from that view, if you where working for someone why would you not seek the highest pay.

I must be the biggest fool here then, I would leave my current computer minding job is a second for the right offer. The town fool has always been a honorable profession, someone has to keep the king chuckling.

I'm with you there 'Dances with Trees' - I am another fool that likes to enjoy my work, the money comes second.

I would rather retire a happy and contented man than a unhappy miser hoarding his money.

Happy people tend to live longer too.

If the money would be the key to happiness, rich people would be all happy. They are not.

You spend a third of your days at work, a third sleeping , and hopefully, a third at home with the loved ones.

If you are not happy with your work, it will affect the sleeping and home time even if you make a very high salary.

I believe that a decent pay for an interesting job is good enough for me. I could get more somewhere else but the "money" oriented co-workers would not be as nice as the ones I work with. We spend our time solving problems, not stabbing each others in the back to get ahead of the others.

We also apply this mentality to our suppliers and customers and business is good even in these difficult times.

I wish you happiness.

Could not agree more with your statements, I know a lot of people who are considered the very rich, and very few of them are really happy. I am talking at the level of 100's of millions, more than they could ever spend and they seem to be overly concerned about making even more.

I am one of those who does not worry overly much about money, I would rather be happy and maintain my ability to travel to unique places than climb the corporate ladder, besides I don't speak french and here in Ottawa you are lost without a second language.

Currently I an in a Government office and I laugh every day watching the climbers trying to get ahead, in our office we have 8 levels of management before one would hit anything resembling executive levels, no wonder taxes as so high.

I also get a laugh watching government departments trying the form a 'Brand' and trying to become 'corporate' in structure, vice president of taxation, that is too funny.

Sorry I am wandering a bit here, ranting again...

happiness at work will rule your life, work is your second family, the people you probably spend more time with than any others. If you are not happy the rest of your life will be miserable as well.

The Europeans seem to have a good handle on seperating work and life, they offer far more vacation time for the workers, the longer you are away from work the more re-charged you seem to get. there productivity is higher as well, maybe that plan should be adapted?

have a happy week.

I think you need to remember why the trades are going away in the first place...Theres no money in it! Volume drives a consumer economy!

I think we should all become trial lawyers...get the Germans to teach the Mexicans how to build stuff...and everyone would be happy.

I am just poking fun here, but realize one thing, knowing all the pressing issues on our natural resources, does anyone believe that wood will be used as a building product in the next ten years. Maybe in Mexico...or if you own a million dollar home.

Don't sweat it, I heard through the grape vine that this current administrations bailout will teach the Mexicans how to build windmills and solar panels, so the rest of the wood working jobs should be safe.

As a paint technologist of some 60 years experience and now doing training I could not agree more. I have come through the industry from when Paint was Paint and if you needed a coating we would have a go at making it. Nowadays the industry (surface coatings!!!) has become extremely specialised and we are reaching that state that some are so specialised that in "knowing less about more & more they are starting to know everything about nothing". Actually the fundamental concepts are more or less the same but current operators do seem to not realise or understand them properly. Technicians in our industry are also spoon-fed by raw material suppliers (even more specialist) and so manufacturers do not feel the need to have in-house technicians.

I liked your post, it hits a lot of bells with me, the only thing you forgot is that the management that is there today is cheap young management, who think they know everything (Hey ! I'm a manager, would I be here if I didn't know everything already?) and cannot take advice from people like us......

...even the middle aged management is so scared of the top management, they do stupid things to try and stay "in" with the upper management. Things that make no sense at all......

My good luck was that when the company folded after management drove it at full speed into the ground, I was old enough and long enough in the business and the firm, that they had to pay me well to leave......a few years younger and I would have been in a difficult position.....as many were...

i agree completely, I worked for 15 years as a design draftsman in an electrical utility and went on to sell GIS systems. When the company was gobbled up by a bigger one and everyone laid off. All I could find was a software testing job in a miserable cubicle in the government. i applied for a position as an electrical draftsman, and got screened out because i had no electrical drafting experience??? the HR person didn't recognize electrical utility as electrical. If I had taken the job, had it been offered I would have taken a 20,000 a year deduction in pay. I would have taken it too, far more productive, so I sit and baby sit a computer, making sure it doesn't move, and they pay me 54,000.

Skilled educated people are paid dirt, my current job only needs high school

Pissed you bet.

well, you are dealing with gis system, now I see, thats why you wish to travel anywhere.

You are great, between 20000 and 60000, if I were you I would have selected the later uncomplaint.

This topic has been covered in other threads such as 'Bring back apprenticeships' but it points up a serious problem in this country.

As I have lived through the period in time in our fair land that has seen an acceleration of innovation in electronics and high tech I think we are seeing the results of 'I want it now' and 'me first' and 'pleasure before pain'. These being the ideals of the upcoming generation.

At the same time there seems to have been a shift at the very top of the major corporations. The older, more hands-on, management has given way to MBA's and CPA's method of looking more to the 'business plan' than the 'business at hand'. Many new 'creative management styles' have been employed focusing on the short-term bottom line, without regard to the long term implications.

Then there are the public schooling issues. I'd tear my hair out thinking about it if I had any left. I sincerely believe we are losing the ability to produce anything of real value, be it goods or the people to produce them.

Agree with many points that all of you have presented---I have tried to train various people in my field, as there are not too many years left in this old back---skills are arrived upon through repetition, but the ability to THINK through problems, let alone find off-the -wall solutions, are another problem.----The people I have to train are basically ILLITERATE---the immigrants from Latin America are hard workers, but did not get even an early education in THEIR countries, let alone here. The American school system has been hi-jacked by special interests, and political and governmental careers are now more important that educating the kids, Therefore, my guys cannot read blueprints, architects notes, engineering details, corrections, etc.--They wait for a pointing finger and an encouraging word, and tear into it with great vigor, until, I , or another senior is not there, and a problem arises, and all screeches to a halt---hope it does not point to similar problems at greater levels in our country as a whole..-thanks for all the viewpoints---they are wonderful! C-MAC

this has been discussed since last 70's.

many Japanese auto engineers was employeed by austrilia or other countries from 80's I remember this reported on newspaper.

many german engineer who retired and re employeed by chinese sicne last 90's. they deveopped thier special skill in the different factories.

I dont think its a problem. many skilled engineer can train new generation in teh school or other relative places. and more and more new tech occure need more guys who familiar with computer or digital tech to do the new job. some old retired engineer who cannt take up this train job have to stay at home and see tv. or look after their chinldren.

all has something to do for society, directly or indirectly.

so , its not a huge issue. neednt make a fuss about it.

haha, I not too clever, but not too foolish. I hvnt ever been in the europe. but I can understand what they are talking about. as every country has such problem. they are seeming. no matter developped or developping.

in china there are also many handcraft dissappear gradually. goverment wish to save. but younger dont likke to learn them.

Im afraid I cannt learn too much from this place, but contribute much for workers or students or may be engineers who come here looking for tech answer. its pity some of them even forget to press a key for vote a good answer. haha. we think they should be acting as a gentalman.

where are you from? why lurk ? not sign in? if youi are scholar, I like to discuss with .

no, we are not "pardner", becuase I dont know who you are?

I welcome your help with english, but gramma is not only words. I prefer you show more phrases or good sentenses which more use ordinarily. a turely english nature speakers can judge the right meaning from the wrong words, just as our chinese can undrestand a worest chinese spoken or writen by a foreigner.

you are not the first one who point out to use abc box. Im afraid this cannt help me to improve wrods. sometimes I use, sometines, not.

its terrible to have a nearly 50% tolerent. haha, you neednt count by yourself, thats a foolish action. just two clicks, computer will do the job.

you may not true american, I seem to feel where you are from. depite you might have green card.

try to sign in. I like to argue engineering project issues with anyone. he he...

ah, odd enough, he is still luiking. may be lost,

I will help this american with his grammar as well.

That really does not take much brain (cn)power does it?

correct: That really does not take much brain, (cn)power, does it?

or That really does not take much brain (of) power, does it?

he he,

again,

For it sure looks

for it sure looks ...

he he, telling sentence should has a correct punctuation.

its pity, abc box cannt correct these wrong grammar.

I know this shows a bad attitude but I'll say it. When these experienced people loose their job prior to retirement, they just are not often considered by other employers. Our society is overly concerned about youth (at least in the US) and personnel departments (along with some management) see use of buzz-words as knowledge. There are many middle aged ,or older, white guys that are being passed over because they do not fit someones notion of an achiever.

Loss of experienced technicians, electricians, and engineers also causes another problem. A replacement may have excellent knowledge and abilities but many industrial systems sometimes require experience with that exact process to get the right results. It is not uncommon for just a couple people in an organization to be able to "tune" a certain process or troubleshoot a certain system. This can happen with processes that are even well documented because it is based on experience. If these people leave, the company is in a real pickle but they don't know it.

To me is a lost sense of values. Perhaps with this recession the trade unions and other politicians will now realise that the workers of the world might have lost their chains but have achieved very little. The failure to realise that the consumer is the one that matters in the end and if he is not around you can do nothing. What some people do not seem to see is that we are all consumers.

In the socialistic revolution the concept of "craftsman" has fallen by the wayside. To me it takes just as long to train a fitter and turner as it does a dentist or a doctor. The medical unions, sorry professional associations, do not have to go around the streets with banners to get a rise they just tell everyone that their fees are going up. To me both have their place in society but they must be fully qualified before having full membership.

I once hoped that the Quality Assurance concept might take the place of craftsman's guilds - but from where I see it it is window dressing and a toothless tiger (down here anyway)

If we could see the re-establishment of guilds we might get somewhere but first you have to bell the cat. I get the attention of someone in management or government and as Robbie Burns put it "there's none so deaf as them that will not hear".

Management these days hide behind their MBAs, for what use they are, and look upon the old crafts as outdated and the craftsmen as a bunch of silly old pharts.

I suppose one of the reasons for the decline in the production of consumer goods in the western world is that the Chinese use a different logic. They know that proper marketing means putting the right product in the right place at the right time. Easy - that is all you have to do. Identify a product, establish what the selling price will be, build a factory, make it and pay the workers out of the profit which is the difference between the actual cost and selling price. As the potential workers are unemployed what ever they receive is welcome! Of course now that the peasants are earners they become consumers and where do we go now? "Workers of the world Unite! - - - - - - - - -&c" they haven't lost their chains just swapped them for chromium plated ones.

I some folks think this is off topic - be my guest and tick away!!!

Here in Canada the government is full of MBAs, they get what is called an 'executive MBA' and government manager can get one. Now these managers are in the government because they graduated with a general BA, and could not get a job any place else, because they were not qualified, even to run the photocopier. Now they are running the country. No real world experience, no real skills, except those they picked up from the 'executive MBA' which is only a cash grab. Oh we are in so much trouble, we replaced skill with idiots.

Can't wait till October, I am going to visit Roswell, and try to get abducted...

<Rant off> sorry

In my humble opinion, many of the previous reply's have been correct... but about the symptoms, not the cause.

I think it is the global competition, especially of developing or "3 third world countries" that are the cause of wages being depressed in the developed world. This affects the wages of the low to middle classes to a greater degree and enough to cause a significant perception of a lack of opportunities in the 'trades' or skill manual labor jobs. Add to this the breakdown of the support systems that trained protected and unified workers (Unions) with a sense of value in their skills and contributions to an employer. The perception that only a formal classroom education beyond high school is highly valued and therefore compensated also affects attitudes of our modern society. This plus the breakdown of health, disability(retaining) and retirement systems especially for these members of the 'trades' and you get a sense of why there is a loss of practical experience in the 'blue collar' labor fields. This won't ease until all the economies (read countries) reach a more or less equal standard of living.

Since those of us in the developed world have seen our wages (and benefits) depressed by global completion, our younger generation has seen the 'writing on the wall' and has pursued higher education as a means of economic survival. The attitude that the trades are not as desirable as a 'professional degree' is based upon this lack of appreciation that for a society to work, all elements of labor and production are necessary. It is no longer considered a sensible approach in one's career to stay with an organization (even if that organization is doing well) and expect that as your experience and value grow to be compensated at rate even approaching inflation. Some view the government figures on cost of living changes to be skewed in favor of government and big business as opposed to being realistic, i.e. the Consumer Price Index is now adjusted to include the substations of lower cost/quality items for higher cost/quality items in the standard 'basket of goods and services' that was originally used. In other words, people when faced with increasing costs, will no longer buy steaks, but buy hamburger instead and this is factored into the CPI used by most to calculate cost of living pay increases. Add to that the outlook by management that people are a resource to be used (and perhaps abused) just as the other resources needed for a product or service. So, to improve or even maintain oneself economically, one must more often than not, seek a better paying position outside their current employer.

This movement of labor, always causes a loss of experience, not only to the original employer but by the individual employee as he/she will no longer needs some of the original skills and knowledge they acquired with the employer they left.

I agree with most of the posts here. Please allow me to add, based upon my own experience, that part of the problem is the employers themselves. First, managers are not technically oriented so they discount the value of technical people. They feel that money processes are more important than production processes, even when they lose the ability to produce anything to sell. So they ignore that their company loses its resources. Second, there has been a general job recession in technical fields for the past twenty-five years. Many managers will not risk hiring experienced technicians because they fear their own shortcomings will show and they or their buddies will be replaced (or end up reporting to the experienced folks). Along with this, many old masters don't want to train newbees because they worry that they'll lose their jobs when the newbee becomes proficient or because they feel that they're not compensated for training people. There are many technically experienced people who would gladly hire on as a trainee if there is a real career opportunity, but they are turned away as being "over qualified". Companies won't grow their own speciallized talent, and will not replace lost talent, but still cry about a "shortage of technical talent". Finally, most human resources departments have no real clue about the real needs and transferrable skills applicable to job openings that they have, and will only blindly and doggedly stick to the exact letter of the skill requirements supplied to them by hiring managers. They over-screen applicants who could be good fits because they don't understand what the company really needs, or because it is more effort than they want to expend to figure it out. It's a wonder that more companies aren't failing than already reported. Many kids are smart enough to see how badly technical people are treated in the US, so why go into those fields? The Asians and Germans have been eating our lunch for decades, and they deserve it (while we also deserve our lot). Meanwhile, companies still don't get it.

Guest,

That's a pretty good assesment of the situation and I would give you a GA if you hadn't posted as guest.

I'm thinking you must have posted from work judging by the hurried apearance of it. Adding some paragraph spacing would make it much more readable however.