Do any Non-Lethal Weapons Exist that would be a Good Alternative to a Gun?

I will not give you any recommendations, since I do not know anything about you.

While there may be those here who will claim to be experts on self defense and firearms, YOU HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING IF THEY HAVE ANY ACTUAL EXPERIENCE OR TRAINING.

They may well be blowing smoke and may get you killed with their self proclaimed knowledge of the subject. Do not believe everything you read here!

My advice to you is to go to a firearms dealer and seek their advice and TRAINING!

http://www.wired.com/2011/04/stun-ray-will-blind-you-into-submission/

That's a very poor link to the device. It won't stop a fleeing person. As the article starts out. The person has to be looking at you. Would work in a confrontation to temporarily blind them a short while.

<...non-lethal weapon...> The concept is abstruse.

It is the intent that determines whether something could be used as a weapon in many jurisdictions. For example, one can carry tools in a car boot with impunity, however were one to have a pry-bar lying on the back seat instead, within easy reach of an occupant, then it might be classed as an offensive weapon in some situations and invoke prosecution. YouTube (other video sites are available) is peppered with video images of people using similar equipment offensively in road rage scenarios!

• A need to accompany a 14lb sledge hammer by public transport in the UK on one occasion invoked the solution of wrapping the head of the hammer loosely in a light-coloured plastic shopping bag and securing the bag to the handle with a couple of elastic rubber bands, thereby demonstrating that there is no intent to use it offensively.

One does have to be careful in these security-conscious times. One also has to bear in mind that the law varies in different jurisdictions; what is acceptable in one place might be completely unlawful somewhere else.

So no recommendations can be forthcoming from this quarter as the original posting is ill defined.

Non-lethal weapons don't not kill people, people don't kill people.

Maybe some device that shoots a breakable capsule of pepper spray for a distance of up to several yards.

I have thought about that, although I don't know of anything that currently exists that does that.

They were developed but were unsuccessful... unable to create a capsule strong enough to withstand the forces incurred during firing, but weak enough to break on the face (where pepper spray needs to be employed) without causing permanent injury.

Interesting. I wonder if a paint-ball gun would do.

Theres an idea pepper spray or tear gas paint gun ammo.

If the assailant has a gun, the paint ball gun would be quite effective at getting you killed, once he figured out it was a paint ball gun.

I think using any non lethal weapon has this danger.......see the title here!!

Yes, but this one is probably the worst choice, as it really doesn't incapacitate the attacker in any way - just ticks him off, especially if he initially showed a fear of it. The user of a paint ball gun better hope the initial surprise gives him time to run for cover, or he will look like Swiss cheese. At least the other choices make an attempt at incapacitating the attacker. In fact, some are occasionally lethal as well, but not to the user.

Paintballs to the face can cause permanent injury, that's why most paintball fields have in their Rules of Play: 'Full-Face safety masks MUST be worn AT ALL TIMES when on the field' and 'Deliberate shots to the face are grounds for immediate expulsion from the field and removal from the premises. Refunds WILL NOT be given in the case of expulsion due to face shots.'

The shell is gelatin, the paint is water soluble and non-toxic (but still tastes horrible when you get some splatter in your mouth). but traveling at a mere 300 feet per second (the maximum muzzle velocity allowed on the fields) it can still put someone's eye out with one shot.

And that'll ruin ANYONE's Christmas.

just ask the family of Jon-Erik Hexum about blanks and how lethal they can be.

I seem to remember seeing this type someplace. But can't find it at the moment.
It may have been a special ammo for a regular fire arm.

I just remembered, in the USA a long time ago, you could buy miniature "shotgun" cartridges for some revolver type hand guns. (Someone here will have made/used them!!)

It started with people dressed as cowboys -girls who demonstrated revolver sharp shooting on balloons in the circus, to prevent patrons also getting shot by a stray bullet!! They used a pinch of lead powder, which made a very short range ammo.

Up to the size of the pellets (BB air rifle ammo 0.177", which are steel balls, sometimes coated in copper) and shoot at the body or legs? Maybe even a slightly smaller ball bearing would be better....?

Maybe even say No.5 Shotgun pellets, not lead, steel though!!

Try and pick a revolver with a large capacity/volume cartridge, maybe one with a reduced powder charge and therefore more shot?

You might even find a case that can use the whole length of the revolver cylinder, as there will no space at the front needed for a bullet!!

Certainly the noise and the impact of many small balls on or even through my clothing, would certainly get me on the run!!

I bet they spread well with the rifling!!!

I just remembered, in the USA a long time ago, you could buy miniature "shotgun" cartridges for some revolver type hand guns.

probably a 410 shell.

Certainly the noise and the impact of many small balls on or even through my clothing, would certainly get me on the run!!

Well, what I recall as a youngster, a good high end Daisy BB gun stung pretty bad.

You're probably thinking of the .410 shotgun shell in a pistol chambered for .45 Long Colt.

Taurus Judge is one such pistol designed to fire both cartridges.

IanR:

Are you sure about that chambering? See my note about the same weapon, but I thought it was chambered for .41 cal and the 410 shell.

But I said Colt, so I was wrong there. Maybe also here. Someone I was talking to last week insisted it was .41 cal/410 chambered, and named a guy we both KNEW who had owned one. But it was all anecdotal by now. And the wall thickness on a 410 hull made me think it had to be either .44 or .45 chambering to handle the 410.

Hmmmmmm.

taurus it's a 45lc and 410 shotgun.

Thank you both for the input. It does make sense. I guess I SHOULD have googled it. But that is less fun than letting you correct me, because you both added more personal "feel" to it than a mere google would have done.

wOw ... I searched, and CANNOT believe that nobody else chirped-in here to echo the thought (or clarify it):

Whether you call it "bird-shot", "snake-shot" or "rat-shot"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat-shot

it's been around a long LONG time, and, I recall in my youth seeing re-loaders ("yes", got into it myself) making their own heavy-duty wax-based bullets (not .22, but .38), which... if this doesn't give you the idea you want, with multiple options, then I can't help you...

"Cheers" ! (and, what's up with CR4 editor-window, not allowing links to be embedded, or posting emoticons...?)

Called "The Judge", chambered in .41 cal, and has a long chamber in the cylinder, so that a .410 ga shotgun shell will also fit. Note, it is not really .410 gauge, as gauge is a different measurement system. It really is a .410 caliber round. But since shotguns are ALWAYS gauge, it must have been decided by the manuf to market this shotgun shell as .410 gauge. Or maybe the manufacturer's salespeople are just confused.

I believe it is a Colt firearm, but someone else may be able to correct me. No googling, though. That just shows how well you can read, not how smart you might be.

I would like to thank everyone who mentioned the .410 cartridges and a revolver that could fire them, but even though I know about the caliber and have fired it in shotguns many years ago, I did not know of the revolvers.....

I was going back to times like PT Barnums(?) Circus, or Wild West Circuses, where shooting balloons was practised by performers.

I looked around on the web for some video, but there are very few that appear to demonstrate the technique. The shooting is done with a rifle in the first one, but it appears that they are shooting lead powder again, if you check the black target, particularly after the first shot.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J_Ah6vEoig

I don't believe this next video would have been allowed with real bullets wither, or even .410 shells....the camera man might have otherwise been hit with the first shot!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBLDw-2t2Yw

In skilled hands.... everything can be lethal. can't help you much, but,...

Wow, a knife pulled on you!

I think the best defense is training,

You learn more about and situation awareness as well as psychology of not only of the attacker but of yourself.

To control you adrenalin and make it work for you for you best odds of survival.

I get upset, when I hear people talking that, that's what they carry, and when asked further they would say crap like, I would run to where the shooting is.... when in fact, the first thing they would probably do is crap in their pants, and the second thing is they would then freeze.

They have no training. Just like martial arts... True Martial arts, they teach control, problem is, a lot of people that take martial arts usually has a record of violence afterwards.

I agree training is the best defense, even if you have a gun or some so far fictional comparable non lethal weapon. Even with the pepper spray I have, when I first got it I spent a while practicing using it. That is not what I am asking about however.

To me what you are saying is that you want to protect yourself but feel that there should be no need to actually train and become proficient at protecting yourself.

As far as guns go they are only lethal if you shoot someone in a lethal way with one or you use way to big of firearm for the job. If you get hit in the torso with a 9mm pistol shot you have a fair chance of dying from it due to deep and serious wounds.

But if I shot you 10 times with a 22 caliber pistol that had nothing but medium grain rock salt loads you would likely live but be wanting immediate medical attention due to many very painful yet basically superficial wounds!

Also if I shoot you in the leg below the knee the odds are you won't die from it unless you refuse to gt medical attention. Same with an arm shot or lower stomach shot or being shot in the butt.

In typical situations none of those shots would be instantly fatal and in all but a tiny fraction of incidences would any of those shots, even if having only came from a small caliber handgun, not be sufficient to make an attacker change their mind after the first or second hit.

My strategy in an attack would be to simply aim low and start firing. People with holes in their legs don't tend to get very far and generally will require immediate medical attention.

I don't see it being the least bit off topic.

Proper training and knowing what to do with yourself in a situation has everything to do with the outcome regardless of location and or weapons used.

If you shoot to injure, be prepared to be sued by the injured regardless of the reason you shoot someone.

This being an engineering forum I knew I would get replies in the line of non lethal is not well defined or I don't know what will work for you. I tried to be as specific as I could in my original post which is why it is as long as it is. I know no matter what I say will be viewed as ambiguous but I will do my best.

Focus on this being a weapon that if myself or anyone else if they went into a store to buy a gun for self defense this (whatever this is) would be a good alternative they would happily consider. Ideally this weapons effects would only be temporary (10 mins to a few hours) incapacitate a person with no other long term effects. But even the non ideal of some minor lasting injury such as bruises is ok. In the worst it should have a very low possibility of killing someone and ideally not be able to at all while still being effective for protection. This isn't about salesmen ship, or convincing someone, it is about a weapon comparable to a gun in most ways except with a much lower chance of death.

But, then again, like Lyn said - I don't know you. My suggestion is based on me... years of military and law enforcement experience and utter confidence in my situational awareness and skill set to employ various defensive measures, to include double-tapping with my CC if necessary.

Threat is a powerful weapon but not one I would buy. I just saw your post http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/105344/New-Non-Lethal-Bullet-Burns-Propellant-Inside-the-Round which I had not seen when I typed this up. It is an interesting idea, but would depend on cost and availability if it becomes so.

As to why these guys targeted me I have no idea other than that I was alone. I saw them coming up behind me long before they were upon me but did not know their intent until they made it clear. This is a well traveled sidewalk in a city environment. It was frankly a terrible place for them as they were caught on high res cameras. I was ultimately a poor target as I was both prepared enough for them and only had about $2 cash on me. I also use an old flip phone with little to no value to them.

I am not asking in specific to me, more about what would work for the general population.

"I am not asking in specific to me, more about what would work for the general population."

The same thing that works for everything else yet in our society is apparently seen as a last resort when it should be the #1 basic front line defence. Proper education.

There is nothing more effective than simply knowing how to handle a situation. There's a reason you typically don't hear about people who are properly trained getting attacked and coming out the loser very often. They were able to either avoid the situation or handle themselves effectively thus making the outcome of the event go in their favor.

Yeah, I understand your position. But to deter, whatever you present has to exceed their threshold of acceptable consequence.

If the level of deterrence you present is not effective, then this is when less-than-lethal or lethal force becomes necessary. The problem is the transition time between your mode of deterrence and your mode of employed force.

With a gun, and I know not everyone is comfortable with a gun, the time between presentation of deadly force (the deterrent) and its use is a fraction of a second.

If a gun is not an option, you'll likely need two types of deterrents, one ranged and one closed-distance as I have yet to find an effective combo, a single device that is, for example, a Pepper Spray dispenser and a stun gun.

Edit: Actually - I miss spoke... any deterrent is a ranged device. Devices such as a stun gun aren't deterrents but rather defense as the assailant has already engaged at the point one of those can be used.

The more complex a device, the higher the probability that it will malfunction with age.

The benefit of such a device as mentioned in that thread is within the context of an organized response by trained First-Responders that maintain their equipment under a precise and regimented PM schedule. I'm not sure it would be fitting for a personal deterrent.

Personally-owned deterrents spend 99.9% of their life in a holster, strong box, purse, or a glove box, gradually collecting dust and being exposed to environmental conditions. These influences will degrade more complex systems over time and the first time you really need it, it might not work as intended - if at all.

I can not tell you how many people I have met that when I found out they own a personal fire-arm for home protection, have left the spring-loaded magazine fully loaded and sitting unused for years... let alone perform adequate PM's on an acceptable frequency on the fire arm itself, or even go to a range once every three months and live-fire the weapon.

We're all mostly technical here, or work in industries where we have first-hand exposure to the importance of maintaining critical equipment and systems... and for most of us on this forum, this mindset transitions to the home as well. But for so many others... *sigh*

I believe there is a flashlight that throws an intense beam of light that will blind an assailant. It can also be used as a club. Check out this link.

http://www.g700tacticalflashlight.com/

It depends on where you live. In some places, even a non-lethal weapon such as a stun gun or pepper spray is against the law. Check with your local police department.

I would just move to a better section of town.....haha but seriously, you need a gun, somebody threatens your life, you point the gun in their face, they run....

That's the biggest mistake.

nothing is clear cut, when someone threaten your life..... they usually already have something to back it up other than words.

Remember this.... not everyone reads and follows your script.

Really? Well what do you do when somebody points a gun in your face? Do you attack them, or pretty much just freeze?

easy SE lets not get emotional.

considering and fortunate that I avoid putting myself in a position to have a gun pointed in my face, but it can happen, if it does, the first thing is NOT TO PANIC and react with emotion.

This is where training helps, and hopefully I would be able to do it.

You've shown what I have experienced. People say how they would react with a knee jerk response of what they would do..... and dam near have a script written out on how things will turn out, with them being on top....when the time comes,... they more then likely wet themselves..... and if they do react, there's a possibility they'll have a closed casket wake.... Now that wasn't in the script, was it.

no matter what intentions you may have posted...No one knows how they will react, not you, not me.... but with training,... you'll have more control over the outcome.

Lastly, how I was brought up, if you pull a gun out and point it, You have all the intentions in the world to pull the trigger.... One is a fool to think the other person wouldn't do the same.

Here's another thing to think about...... it a training video of the distance it requires for you to react with a gun against a person with a knife..... 21 feet

No, because it's an apples to oranges comparison. A gun is by definition is lethal and has a range that protects its user, while most non-lethal weapons lack both. Criminals think differently than the rest of us, they have a plan, have practiced it before, and will execute it without flinching; whereas victims are just the opposite.

Your best alternative is situational awareness and placing as much distance between you and your attacker (avoidance). I always carry a bunch of small bills that I can throw in the air as a diversion (like your old phone), then head towards the nearest human activity.

City version of the farmer's standby for kids mucking in the fields- sawed off semi- automatic shotgun loaded with rock salt.

Whether or not it's legal is another question.

I have thought about this before. My solutions were:

1) A very intense light flashed to the assailant's face, temporarily blinding them. I saw such devices advertised decades ago. Can be powered by some sort of capacitive discharge through a xenon lamp or similar. Can be fired repeatedly and is non-fatal.

2) Some device that produces an intense, focused noise that frightens the excrement out of the assailant. If loud enough, it might even have enough of a shockwave to impact them. Could be powered by a compressed gas (CO2). Again, non-lethal.

Would you be satisfied with leaving assailants (except those used to it) heaving-their-guts-out-sick and wishing they were dead, forsaken by (most) of their friends, and known to everyone including LEO's as soon as they came near?
Hit them with fish sauce from a (well sealed) squeeze bottle. Squeeze hard enough to break the seal, which you do NOT want to break until you need it. Unless they grew up eating with, married someone who does, or learned to like it themselves, it will do the job. http://www.vietnamheritage.com.vn/pages/en/8121151334671-A-rocket-fragment-opens-a-jar-of-nuoc-mam.html

IMPORTANT: I've not tried this idea myself. Use at your own risk, etc.

It's food, not a weapon, and therefore legal just about everywhere except on an airplane.

http://www.chicagoreader.com/Bleader/archives/2010/10/21/one-bite-the-finest-fish-sauce-in-the-world

Isn't run the other way an option? A scared person will always run faster than an angry person :-)

Squirt some oil on the ground, too!

Not true,.... As a 7 year old,... My dad always caught me..

Generally, when the bad guy points his weapon at you, he has the element of surprise, and you need time to properly react, unless you have had serious training, which most of us never get.

My advice is to do as told, you can replace cash and credit cards, even an auto.

If you happen to have a gun in your waist, which is the thing to do these days, you can decide what you want to do after he starts to leave and is not looking at you. Even money says you will let him go, it's not worth the hassle the cops will give you. If you shoot him in the back, you have broken the law, could go to jail for a long time.

Remember, it's serious formal training that allows people to attack a robber. Without that, you are asking to be robbed, and hurt, maybe even killed.

Gun dealers can advise you on where to get this training.

Very difficult and interesting question. I will watch this blog with great interest. Thanks for posing the it...

The only small thing I can offer, is that some Pepper/CS Gas sprays, do not "spray" (according to the ad), they "project" a "jet" of fluid a lot further, with slightly less likelihood of you being affected (depending upon wind direction as well!).

I have NEVER used them, so no personal knowledge at all, sorry, but I just happened to be checking up on ebay yesterday for my womenfolk....

How about a handful of tavern darts? Probably not lethal except on an (un)lucky day.

A pet rattlesnake might also work.

Nothing that's legal

( heavy sigh )

In South Africa I have a paint ball gun (turned up to full power) with a mix of solid plastic balls and pepper balls . pepper balls come in 3 or 4% I have shot a male on the chest at 15 Mt's (45feet) and man down Even passed out ( pepper ball.)

Once a thief who stole from a neighbour and then climbed a tree and would not come down . one plastic ball to the chest and he fell out of the tree.

Also you can rapid fire aburst of 10 /20 balls

Bruzer ML-12 a two shot hand gun that will fire an array of non lethal shells that a shot gun will. Bean bag shell is one of them.

It seems a lot of responses is retribution... ie, make the perpetrator pay.

As satisfying as it may make you feel, as I posted before real life doesn't always (rarely) follow the script.

Each situation has a different scenario where one can achieve the best personal outcome.

So with that said. What do you really want to accomplish here?

• Best personal result
• Payback
• Be able to live another day
• Not being victimized
• etc...

Actually, I believe I may have stated the answer.

and that is not being victimized, is to look that your not a going to be victim or at least it not going to be a party with you being a mark.

Stop it before it happens.

The concept has been debated furiously over the years from Washington on down. In my research, what constitutes a deterrent depends not on the weapon or device, but on the perpetrators determination to succeed. To assume a "non-lethal" device will work is to assign a certain frame of reference or value structure to the attacker that many not actually be valid.

Ultimately, and similarly to national practice, a true deterrent is a nuclear option and the known/proven resolve to use it. In essence, most people will weigh the consequence of their actions based on considered outcomes, (fight or flight) but there are those who will not and when confronted with one, only a lethal option has the possibility of protecting you from them and their intent. Sadly most do not wear signs announcing this fact.

Yea, they call them tasers or stunguns. They also come where they shoot out little wires, you can also get them as a flashlight with a stunning ability on the end.

Also, as someone else posted, I'm going to add to it:

Regardless of what you get to make you feel safer, even if it is a gun, none of that matters if you don't train in using it and practice often. The main concern is fear and panic taking over and you making mistakes that end up getting you or someone innocent bystander injured. Training and practice is specifically for overcoming the panic. That is something that police and military do often, they train and drill constanstantly.

You could train in martial arts and become a blackbelt but if you quite practicing it altogether, years down the road, all that training you obtained to get to that level will be lost. You'll remember bits and pieces and that strength and speed that you obtrained will fade away and you'll become hesitant.

So the point is, whatever you decide to do, you have to train in using it and you have to keep it in practice.

You might be interested in "cane cattle prods". do a google search.

here is one example: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product

Just make a kissy face and say ... I will kiss you if you caome closer

That's right, p!ss him off.

Still a gun....but

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/105344/New-Non-Lethal-Bullet-Burns-Propellant-Inside-the-Round?frmtrk=cr4digest&et_rid=419412357&et_mid=82832471

I have been mugged once (Florida) and persuaded him to think otherwise.
My son has been mugged and robbed twice, after a struggle.

Based on this experience I think it may be best to surrender a token wallet or
whatever the idiot wants, and live happily ever after. Because, to inflict damage
to anyone has to be lived with. Even if the police do not charge you, how would you
feel if you had now crippled some one, even though they may "deserve" it?

That said, I did think of suggesting using a repeating camera flash. A good one can be
quiet blinding and offer a chance to run away. (the stun-ray has already been cited)

Even if you "disarm" the attacker in some way, unless they are unconscious, or you
wish to make an example of them to the police - entailing statements, court visits,
time lost, etc. you still need to make your escape. So better sooner than later?

The point being what is the easiest way out for you? The least trouble, least violence
etc. and, the least after effects. The attacker has to live with it, you don't. (or should not)
Perhaps I am naïve, but the meek shall inherit the earth. (with nothing left!)

jt

In an recent interview, General Norman Schwarzkopf was asked if he thought there
was room for forgiveness toward the people who have harboured and abetted the terrorists
who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks on America . His answer was classic Schwarzkopf.
The General said, "I believe that forgiving them is God's function ....
Our job is to arrange the meeting."

I would be with you in flight response, but, at my age and physical condition, I am no longer able to run away from anyone attacking me. As I stated above, leaving an attacker with whatever injuries required to get away, I leave myself open for a civil law suite. That is almost a guarantee.

I have never seen a good fight, whether it was a school yard fight, or as an adult.

But given the choice, if I ever did get in a tangle where I was able to walk away while my attacker was maimed or crippled, I could live with that, and easily get on with my life.

In my younger years, where I was lean, and a situation did happen to me, and was able to avoid it, at one point, openly admit that they probably could kick my ass, but I can only promise, it wouldn't be a party. And I meant it. That fortunately is all it took, but no one had a weapon.

But as I mentioned before, I've never seen a good fight, they were all ugly.