A Question on Dialect and Accent

You might overcome this by practicing accents in your spare time, or any time really...

Which Brit accent? I think I once read that the accent here changes every 25 miles. I know I have trouble understanding some of the more unusual ones.

25 miles? Is that after going in circles?

It could be if you ask a local for directions.

The variety of accents within the British Isles alone is enough to perturb some foreigners; Geordie and Glaswegian are among the more difficult, though there are some areas of rural Norfolk that are difficult to decipher from a distance of only 80 miles.

"Dew yersel' a-troshin' on a hol'd'y there, Bor; thass a proper job!" Or just ring PlbMak, perhaps.

My biggest problem is with customer service and help desks located in foreign countries.

In all fairness, some Americans seem to be speaking a foreign language too. While I'm on that subject, axe is musician's slang for a guitar or an implement for felling trees. It IS NOT a interrogative verb, EVER!

I was born and raised in the deep south and very early on took steps to lose my southern drawl. (an have, except for "git" which sometimes slips out)

I've never had a problem with English from Great Briton, indeed I find the different words they invented for things like truck and gasoline to be quaint.

You've got to smile....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01phj38#play

"My biggest problem is with customer service and help desks located in foreign countries."

Oh don't get me started on "foreign call centers," many seem to have gone from training in accent reduction to accent AMPLIFICATION.

It's one thing when they seem to be inserting short phrases into odd spots, like ending every block of speech with 'thankyoumamsir.' That soon becomes 'invisible,' as it mimics saying 'over' on a walkie talkie. Mispronounciations aren't even that hard to deal with, but what really irks me, what makes the speaker so hard to follow, is when they put the acCENT on the wrong syLAble, especially when they're asking 'just one more question' to complete the paperwork on the magazine update, and the 'one more question' is "Which of the faLOWing five hunDRed thOUsand items do you purCHASE, reCOmend, or speciFY?" followed by the list of 500,000 items, in groups of ten, in alphabetical order by the middle initial of the data entry personnel's mothers maiden name, spoken with English so broken the term 'broken English' isn't even enough of a metaphor; it should be described as 'pulverized English' or 'finely ground English.' 'Broken English' assumes there are still parts of it large enough to recognize.

Many years ago while working a Motorola Government Div. I worked on a prototype/service lab.

Guys would come in and need something made or painted or modified.

They hired a Vietnamese engineer who would come to the lab for our services.

Being from Arkansas, I literally could not understand him at all. Nothing he said resembled any spoken words I had ever heard.

_{Was he perhaps speaking Vietnamese?}

You so funny được ông có lẽ nói tiếng việt me speaky engrish all day every day many long time you know

In reality, accent is relative. An accent to you may sound normal to me and vice versa.

The biggest problem I have is that most tech support these days seems to be outsourced overseas, so that the person on the other end usually has a heavy accent that requires a lot of effort to understand.

The only problem I have had is with some Scottish accents, but that is just a difficulty understanding certain words sometimes. I would really be stuck if I didn't pre-record the latest Doctor Who episodes allowing me to rewind to catch important dialogue I missed.

On a side note it appears to be more of a problem for Americans than say Europeans, to the extent that some popular English shows have tried to produce American versions (The Office, and I even saw a pilot for an American actor Red Dwarf).

Of course like a re-made TV program the magic can never be captured quite the same regardless of how hard they try to duplicate it (American Top Gear and The Office are prime examples of how copying not only concepts but also characters personalities doesn't guarantee success).

Perhaps it is because in Europe and other countries (where multiple groups with different accents and dialects interact) people have adapted.

I guess one example in America would be Miami where a large Spanish population base occurs allowing both groups of Americans to interact and adapt to the different dialects when either English or Spanish is spoken. Is this the case (my experience is limited so I may be wrong)

Mr. Best in Show and I have been enjoying the Brokenwood Mysteries. I was surprised at how different New Zealand English sounds; we don't need subtitles, but not by much. Prior to this show my only experience with New Zealand English was a college physics professor; I didn't understand him OR the physics.

I grew up in the Southern US. Those who didn't grow up there think everyone in the South talks like a Texan. In fact, there are plenty of regional variations. Funny, but I was wondering this morning what causes us, as a group, to start talking funny.

Some of it is sequestration... the people in the Ozark's thought they were the normal ones and would vehemently deny having an accent pretty much up until TV became commonplace, when they realized they were the only ones that spoke that way.

You haven't heard the correct Brit accent then. A physics prof I took a course from in college, and more recently, the anesthesiologist for my eye surgery, had the "upper crust" accent. Don't know where the anesthesiologist was schooled, but the physics prof had gone to Cambridge. Now that is English as English is to be spoken.
I was nearly embarrassed to talk to either of them, with my central Pa "Dutch country" accent.

Nigh's comment made me do a double take

I'm always taken aback when somebody says you have an American accent.....Having lived in New England the south and the west coast, I can pretty much just fall into an accent after a few minutes of conversation where ever I am....Sometimes I even type with an accent...I'm sure this is something speech recognition software has struggled with for some time...I mean how do we expect a machine to understand accents we have trouble understanding ourselves....and the same words that have different meanings to different people...very confusing

I could never imagine what an "American" accent would sound like until I lived in the UK for a couple of years. Hearing "British" consistently on radio and TV until I was used to it, I could hear the "American" accent when the news person interviewed a "yank".

Well, yes, the dialects are regional in any country, especially this one. Try to talk to a true Louisiana native, from Cajun country. I survived working for many months in Texas because I lived 2 years in WVa and got a hang of the southern drawl. You really didn't want to be a "Yankee" in the oilfields of Texas when I worked there. It wasn't quite the same accent, but close enough. The Texans call a bush a bush, not a boosh as in WVa.

The worst accent in English come from Australia. I'm a huge fan of bicycle racing, particularly the Tour de France, and the cyclist interviews where I ask, "what did he say??" are from Australia. Not the French, or Italians, or even the Slavakians can chew up English that well or poorly. They have a slang word for nearly everything on earth.

I find it interesting when the French, with whom we work here quite often, have trouble understanding the Canadians in and around Montreal. The accent and slang problem exists in other languages as well.

I was going to include the Down under crew too but figured I already would have enough stones coming my way

I use to have a lady friend from Aus that I spoke to a lot through my PC. during a certain conversation I mentioned that she sounded Kiwi.WOW didn't she correct me! she took it as an insult. they sound almost exact to me

I've got to disagree. The worst accent is that version of the Scottish accent spoken by the guy who does the Scotts Lawn Care products commercials. His burr is so strong I feel like my ear drum is being sawn in half. It's awful.

The next-worst is a tie among all of the dialects around New Jersey and the greater New York City area. I particularly hate it when someone from that area asks for 'a cup of cwoffee'. [There's no W in coffee!]

I particularly hate it when someone from that area asks for 'a cup of cwoffee'. [There's no W in coffee!]

In this modern age where coffees come in numerous styles and with numerous additives who's to say you cannot order one with an extra shot of 'W'

Me!

Perfectly clear old boy.

Love it! GA from me too.

Yes - that's it. That's Cadel after a stage at the the Tour Down Under.

That's quite a tip you've got yourself into.

Good Luck, Old Salt

years ago I had an internet friend from east TX. her accent was quite strong but I usually understood most of what she was saying but one day she just lost me. we were talking about what we had done the past weekend. she had attended a BBQ and was raving about the food. it took me 9-10 tries to understand a certain specific word. she really enjoyed the "bald shrimp".I had never heard of this species of shrimp.......turns out she was saying "Boiled"

Yes sir - you have "bald" for boiled and "ohl" for oil in Texas. Of course you get an occasional "you all" or sometimes "y'all" there, but that was missing in WVa dialect, at least where I lived.

Come up to central Pa sometime and I'll treat you to Lepnon balony (Lebanon Bologna) and dippy eggs. (eggs done sunny side up) We'll also throw you down the stairs your shoes if you forget them. It's not just the Amish that talk that way.

WVa had something called "ramps" that confused me until I saw one and saw it was a "leek".

BBQ - now there is something that is even more different than language, depending where you are.

I've had the pleasure of living in Philadelphia (wudder for water, pavement for sidewalk) and visiting Lancaster County. Neither as as much fun as Pittsburgh, where I spent nine mostly wonderful years. The vocabulary was harder than the pronunciation: gum band = rubber band, redd up = clean, slippy = slippery. The Stillerz, at least, is an easy one to figure out.

Yep - same difference - that's south of I80 and west of Lancaster / Reading/Scranton line.

I use those words as well as I warsh my clothes on Saturday, I don't drive on asphalt, but do drive on McCaddum roads, drink pop (NOT soda), have friends who live up the crick (creek), call up old whatzername (when I can't think of her name), and love to eat Peekin pie (pecan). We also have a conflict on bury. We say it like jury, not like Jerry, as people north of I80 do.

You find out these oddities when you go to college. Believe me, I hung out with the Pittsboigers, not the Philly crowd in college. We talked the same, almost.

Spoken like a true son of PA!

I moved to Pgh from Knoxville and was struck by some linguistic similarities between the two areas. "Yinz" and "you 'uns" -- same ungrammatical conflation of "you ones" but with more syllables in the South. A lot of the original settlers in both the Pgh area and East TN were Scots or Scots-Irish, so maybe that accounts for some of the similarities. The extreme localization of some Pittsburghese -- like gum band -- is striking. Twenty-five miles outside city limits people say rubber band.

Did you got to Penn State? I worked for a regional PS campus (near Philly) and enjoyed traveling up to State College now and then.

Gum band extends quite a bit farther from Pbgh than that - I grew up 150 miles or so east, just to the south east of main campus PSU. My wife just used that last week at work, and got some weird stares. It doesn't make it north of I 80.

Yes - that's where I went to school. At that time, the student mix seemed like 45% Pbgh and 45% Philly, and 10% of us dorks from the country, or to use a very localized slang term for someone from way out in farm country, gappers. (figure out which county that came from, and you have the location of my home) As I said earlier, the western city spoke the same language. Never did get that drinking wadder and Gaz Lawz in physics, and so on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfe4RwkNB5I

The best thing about the Prof. was that he spoke with such conviction, no suggestion that it was nonsense.

I don't really find them annoying, unless they are too heavy to where I can not understand what the speaker is saying.

My problem though is, I subconsciously start to mimic the accent. At a point back in my youth, I took a lot of Theatre and Dance courses and have done a ton of Community Theatre over the course of my life. I spent a lot of time focusing on the technical nuances of a plethora of different accents.

Studying accents and practicing them all the time, especially if you had to perform with one... If I'm not careful, they will just click on and then it's off to the races.

I lived in WVa for over 2 years and worked nearly a year in Texas, where you had to sound Texan to survive. I do the same thing. If I'm talking to a southerner on the phone, I slip back into "Texan". That always worries me that they'll think I'm mocking them.

My oncologist is from Kiev, and I don't mean Texas.

She went to school there and has lived in the USA for about 10 years.

I have to concentrate intensely when she speaks to me. I her case, I want to understand every word she says correctly.

Oh, and if you are from Texas you might be in the awl biness.

As a freshman in college I had to take a literature class. The first day of class the professor had each of us read a sentence that she had written on the blackboard. After all 28 of us were done she announced that she was studying linguistics and then proceeded to tell each of us what county we were born in! Being able to distinguish the difference in accents amongst different speakers is a real talent.

When we watch a BBC TV show, I have to tell my wife that turning the volume up will NOT help her understand the accent!

That must be on PBS (Public Broadcast System), which, for those of you across the Pond, we affectionately call the English Channel.

I'd be turning it down

Ayak-cent? I ain't got no ayak-cent! It's yo thet zounds phunny!

When I was in the Navy the call to action one day would be "Qwattas, qwattas. " The next day it would be "Qworters, quorters."

Which Navy was that?

I tend to like a variety of accents, up to the point where they or the vocabulary become hard to understand. The foreign help desks are often a problem in that respect.

Multilingual workplaces such as seafood plants can sometimes have communication problems that affect plant safety. I know of one seafood company that has an English-speaking requirement that on grounds of safety they have been able to defend from discrimination complaints. Suffice it to say that interacting issues like this can become touchy and complex.

We have quite a variety of nations represented here at work so have a range of accents but don't seem to encounter many problems. We have a very lovely Filipino lady & I occasionally hear her chatting to her friends on her phone. Their language always sounds quite violent but it makes me chuckle to hear it interspersed with English phrases. I guess that there are some things that just don't translate in their language.

You have spent a lot of time in a particular locality and have not been exposed to varying dialects/accents of English.I have lived in the UK(Wales, London), Canada(Toronto), USA(LA, Texas, Buffalo) and Australia(Adelaide, Darwin).As a consequence I understand almost all variations of spoken English - there might be some I would have trouble with??
Language seems to have converged towards BBC English, with those from Wales seeming to have the least accented variants(although my Childhood on the Dee river might bias me). I expect communication to gradually erode these variations, but it will take many generations

BBC English has changed, there seems to have been a deliberate move to use more regional accents.

Yes, that would be part of motley-culturism.....

Oh, I'm happy to listen to a pretty young girl's British accent all day long.

I can listen to any pretty woman, who cares about the accent?

Ah! You're easy!

'fraid so!!!

But if I have a choice of young ladies speaking with an accent, I would go for French or Italian....they can "french or Italian" me ANY DAY!!!

There have been some good ads over the years with "accents"!

This not even the best one, her English is just a little TOO good:-

http://www.adweek.com/news/advertising-branding/ad-day-wk-gets-yoplait-back-touch-its-adorable-french-side-165140

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VOhQ2V4E14

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNvM_A5h1Vo

I am sure that some of the Ladies here would like this one:-

http://www.thefrenchvoice.com/chanel-tv-commercial/

Its obvious why this one was banned:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLD1plXHmLY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwGrUMlagk0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au4qirjbNjI

This one is interesting, who remembers who Miss Guyana is today? (no accents sadly!!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn3iFlMi2w8

Enough titillation for now I feel!!!

Apart from accents, another thing is the habit of rising inflection at the end of a sentence. The Antipodeans are worst I've found, but it's catching on in UK, specially among the young (including one of my sons!). It seems to carry the implication that the hearer is a bit dim so probably won't understand what's being said. Most irritating!

My cousin from Atlanta does that raising of inflection at the end of sentences. I have identified others from Atlanta because they sound like her. The US has many varied accents and your home state, city, town or even neighborhood can be identified by your speech. At least so I have heard, don't you know? You-all have a fine day now!

if you remember Jahadi John, language experts listened to YouTube vids of him and thought he had spent a lot of time from a section in London...later confirmed to be true.

Great blog, really interesting,

I do not (anymore) feel that there are "good and bad" accents. They are all good, even if I have trouble understanding them sometimes... It all adds to the great variety of things for me....

I only hope that they are not lost for ever in say 100 years time, because of the internet or something....

Don't anyone think that it is only English, in Germany, we have accents that say hale from the north, which cannot be understood by someone from the south, unless they both make an attempt to speak "high" German......(A bit like saying Oxford English in GB !).

The German/Swiss, if they do not speak "High", I cannot understand at all....nor the Northern Germans and hen a Southern German is drunk, again difficult to understand....

I also speak better when "high" on alcohol I feel, but others maybe don't agree!!!

I have heard that basically all countries have similar effects....the larger the country, the greater the differences....

thanks Andy I had fun with it

One British way of pronouncing words really pisses me off - using "sh" where "s" is intended. Examples: Ashoom (assume), inshulation (insulation), peninshula (peninsula). I always want to say to them "If you are going to say "ashoom" then you have to say "ashumshun" but have never dared. I have a couple of friends (both ex-schoolteachers!) who mispronounce these words. Worse still, I heard a radio broadcaster on BBC say "conshoomer" for consumer. Off with his head.

That is bad English to my mind, adding letters where none are.....especially school teachers, they think they know everything!!

.....but by far not the worst I have heard.....

I use an old British saying with such people:- "Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach!!"

How about the way some people say haitch for aitch? I used to have a lecturer many years ago who never sounded his aitches except when he said haitch! Which was quite often in physics lectures eg Planck's constant.

I'm from a water industry background where pH comes up regularly, and hearing poor dears saying pee haitch was quite distressing as it's harder than normal to say haitch after a pee (no joke intended )

Exactly! Coincidentally I moved to Australia in 1969 and made my debut in the water treatment industry. Even in those days all Australians said "pee haitch." At first I though it was ignorance and couldn't help a smirk, then I found out it was actually taught that way in school. Shock horror. Why it has invaded Britain I do not know.

I think it's mainly ignorance. I doubt whether most Brits know aitch is a word and could spell it. As it happens the lecturer I mentioned was Australian, and it was in about 1964.

The (h)aitch issue was discussed in the quality press here a while back, and it was pretty much concluded that so many people say haitch it would have to be accepted as correct. I disagree but languages do evolve so may have to live with it. A similar case is pronouncing coitus with the oi as in coin, rather than co-eetus. After all nobody says coincidence as coin-cidence. Though I did know an old boy once who pronounced reinforcement rain-forcement!

All the consonants have spelled-out version as words. They may not be widely used, but in beef processing the H or aitch bone is commonly spelled out, cyclotrons have dees, and wye is often spelled out in electrical, plumbing, and road work.

might I add one that has always annoyed causing me to correct many.......ASHFAULT its asphalt.

I'm ok with accents. What's brutal for me is watching any video where the speaker talks very slowly. Thank goodness youtube allows for speeding up a video up to 2x. Basically I feel like this:

https://youtu.be/bY73vFGhSVk?t=30

I used to deal with someone at a test house like that, on the phone he would pause mid sentence & you were tempted to ask if he was still there.

I was born on an island in eastern Canada. I was brought (legally) to Calif as a baby so I didn't grow up on the island but my parents sure did and you could hear it frequently with certain words and it would really crank up if they got on the phone with someone from "home" home to them wasn't a structure but an entire region.

my dad never said the letter Z, it was always Zed or "H" was Haytch. in the 1970's a popular Japanese car was pronounced by me as a "dotson 240 zee, my dad would call it a Dhatson 240 Zed

You mean as in that popular rock band zed zed top?

One last comment on this. If you want a good laugh, look up the Tour of California from last year and find the part where Jens Voigt, a former cyclist from Germany, tries to imitate the accent of Peter Sagan, a Slovakian cyclist. So you have a person speaking English with a heavy, and I do mean heavy classic German accent, trying to do a comment in English from a person with a heavy Slovakian accent. I saved that clip for weeks and replayed it for anyone who came to my house.

link?

Gone - I'll see if I can find it again. It's worth the time to hunt for it.

That's where the confusion came from - I re-read my post and I said "clip" in my email, not "link" - it was on DVD, not an internet link. I thought I had maybe used the wrong terminology. However, I have seen it on one of the video sites, I think it is You tube. I will check for it tonight as promised.

Thanks for your trouble.

Sorry Andy and Fredski and anyone else looking for the video with strange accents we were discussing - I tried and failed. Do you have any idea how many You Tube videos there are on Jens Voigt and Peter Sagan? (Peter himself has posted 196 of his victories/antics) Seems they are friends and keep popping up in the others video. Voigt is probably the most videoed cyclist in history due to:

1. he rode until well after others hung up the cleats due to age

2. he has some of the most memorable quotes in cycling history

3. he rode on in races when other men would have quit due to injury

4. he rode again at an age most retire after recovery from a face plant at 60KPH

5. he rode with the Aussies for a while and they are just nuts about him

6. his intense riding in the Tour of California won the hearts of American cycling enthusiasts

I tried ALL the possible combinations I could think of to get to this, but it may have been on a cycling magazine site, not You Tube.

I'll see if I can get to NBC sports coverage of the 2015 Tour of California over the weekend, since Jens was a color commentator for them and that is where the DVR I had came from.

thanks for the effort

It was really nice of you to try, many thanks.

Did you put it on YouTube somewhere?

No, but someone did - I have to find it again. I'll try to find it tonight, or where you are located, early morning.

While working in the USA, I had a very attractive secretary from Georgia.

I loved hearing her say "Georgia"....really sexy....so sharp and cutoff.....

Sadly, we were both married!!

Perhaps just as well, otherwise you may have had something else cut off.

A definite maybe!!

I love Oxymorons, don't you?

Have some fun with these

I'm from New Jersey and everyone knows that we don't have an accent so I can't understand any of you.

LOL!!

Isn't it spelled "Joy-Sey"?

I enjoy hearing different accents(though some Brit accent are very difficult).You travel 300 miles from where I am to New Orleans and is amazed by the way English is spoken over there.Cajun is another thing.

Dr RED Duke the surgeon from Houston on TV programs was famous for his heavy Texas accent

Speech without accent is like food without spice

It's an interesting topic,.. and I can say there was formerly something similar to what you commented here << I have to admit several accents can perturb me to the point I just close the window and move on >>.. During my preparatory school, we had an Egyptian teacher responsible for teaching us the basics of English language,.. However, he was speaking a so badly-broken language, for example, these sentences (this is my father,. That is my mother,.. these are brothers) are pronounced this way (zes iz my brazr, zat iz my mazr,.. zoz r brazrz ) respectively.. Similarly, I could remember that he was pronouncing the sentence (I think) like this (I sink)… Anyway, I can now admit that I was studying English -at that age- with a "quite" Egyptian accent!!.. Alarmingly, that temperamental teacher with a poor accent -throughout two years- was about to make me hate learning any language later on!!

Have a friend who traveled all over the world.

He flew into Cairo and was to be picked up by a "limo" driver.

Never connected with him until he called the service.

He did hear someone calling for a Mr. "Blii-ear" but didn't make the connection. His last name is Blair.

He also grossly overpaid his pyramid tour guide because he didn't know anything about the currency there. Colors mattered, I guess.

In the mid 60s, when out eating in a really nice restaurant with my then current girlfriend at the time, I helped a Yale University Math Professor pay his Bill.

He was sitting alone at the next table and I stopped him offering the waiter two hands full of British cash and telling the waiter to take what he wanted!!

Also, he wanted to grossly over tip as well percentage wise.....waiters in the UK are paid properly, not like in the USA!!! (I am sure that they would not agree!!)

I don't remember quite how the waiter reacted to my "interference"......

You remind me of a common happening with Germans speaking English, that I had almost forgotten.

The "Th" sound ("the" for example) in English is where the Germans joke that they have to spit out their top front teeth to get it right. Simply because German does not have the sound at all.

Some Germans eventually manage to say it, but most can't say "the" properly. like a Chinese trying to say something beginning with an "R" sound, they somehow manage to change it to a "L" sound if I remember correctly, as the is no "R" sound in Chinese.....

Some Germans tend to say something like your Egyptian English teacher, they say "Zer" for "the".

Although its difficult to get the audio right with the written word, I will try.

The situation was we were actually an American and two Brits in the German main offices of our firm, an American computer company. When just us three were together, say at lunchtime (see I'm British!) we spoke English (unless a single German word said it better, then we used that word in an English sentence, all fluent German speakers as well).

Generally, if a German colleague joined us, we would switch to German, but on one particular day, a German colleague started making fun of us using German words when it suited us, and I said to him, that when he spoke English, he did the same.

Totally nonplussed, he looked at me and said in good English, "I do not!". "Tell me when!"

I said to him (switch your audio imagination on!) "You always say "Zer" for "the".

He indignantly replied "I do not say "Zer" for "Zer".

Which cause us three to burst out laughing!! I almost fell on the floor, I was so weak from laughing....

He said it several times more, listening to himself and eventually agreed that he did say "Zer"!!!

He never criticized us again!!

It was all in good fun!!

I had signed a German contract in 1981, that required me to be able to speak English, a standard contract for Germany.

I actually could not speak German!! At all!! Or read it of course, I signed "blind"....so to say!! Best thing I ever did....

Yeah, a nice story!!.. You know what the problem is with those people speaking very very broken foreign languages in a way that damages our ears,.. it's because those people with a fragile accent have started to learn some acquired language at late ages,.. and I've noticed this during my trips to Germany, as the young there speak English much more fluently than the aged ones.. and definitely every rule has exceptions!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejuK8_12Fmg

I had to laugh, the definition was also wrong! A Squirrel in German is an "Eichhörnchen"......

There are many words that other nationalities have problems with, ask a French person to say "Guinness" correctly. (Show him it written down!!).

A German friend of mine almost wet himself laughing when an Australian friend tried to read him a "duck tales" comic written in German. Having no idea how to pronounce the German words the resulting spoken German really helped make the comic funnier. Who says Germans don't have a sense of humour.

There is a book, I was once lent a copy by my Boss, that if you read it as if it was English in pronounciation, the people around you "hear" German!!!

Haven't seen it in over 30 years....I looked around and could not find it online. Maybe someone else knows it.....