Previous in Forum: Unequal Load Sharing Between Generators   Next in Forum: 2-4.5V to 5V, 1A Boost DC-DC Converter Circuit.
Close
Close
Close
20 comments
Associate

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26
Good Answers: 2

Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

01/07/2008 4:06 PM

Is it really likely that people in a vinyl lined pool could be electrocuted if an electrical cord fell into the pool? If so why? What would the current path be?

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Interested in everything- see my Profile please APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - Member Hobbies - Musician - Autoharp and Harmonica Hobbies - Hunting - Member Hobbies - Fishing - Member

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Christchurch, (The Garden City), South Island, New Zealand
Posts: 4395
Good Answers: 230
#1

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

01/07/2008 5:12 PM

Hello LaMarTEK

I have assumed you mean a mains power cord, made for 110 - 240 volts AC.

I have also assumed the power was on, the cord was "live", even though you have not stated that.

If the power was on, and the cord in as new condition, where no contact between the live wires or plug contacts and the water could be made, there is no problem, because no appreciable leakage current can enter the water.

If they have been electrocuted, that person is no longer here, their body has ceased operations = dead.

So...the current path would have been through the heart, which stopped its regular pumping cycle.

It is not generally realised, but a current directly through the heart of even a few micro-amps can kill.

Kind Regards....

__________________
"The number of inventions increases faster than the need for them at the time" - SparkY
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#17
In reply to #1

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

08/18/2010 6:30 PM

ive heard of stories of peeing on electrical fences and getting knocked on therer ass?but still hearsay;laws of electricity should shock you if the stream is constant and you are grounded.

Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4666
Good Answers: 802
#18
In reply to #17

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

08/18/2010 10:05 PM

Myth busted on the Myth Busters TV show. Human urine streams are NOT continuous, despite what we think we see. A strobe effect and a high speed camera showed it.

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23517
Good Answers: 419
#20
In reply to #18

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

02/02/2025 8:35 AM

that's not quite true, if you don't get a shock consider yourself luck.

A electric fencer for keeping cattle in is intermitted shocks, 1/2 seconded buzz, silent, for about 2 seconds. and repeats, I believe its because of a capacitor being chard and discharging. and these fencers are powerful, I recall one fencer was called 'the weed burner'.

It also depends on how good is your grounding...

As far as the power of an electric fencer is. being raised on a dairy farm, you just need to ask my cousins visiting from the city who present themselves as more intelligent and sophisticated...

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - Old Salt Hobbies - CNC - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rosedale, Maryland USA
Posts: 5198
Good Answers: 266
#2

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

01/07/2008 5:36 PM

Thru the water to the metal housing of the filter pump. The pump is grounded. Then there is the drain piping if buried and conductive. The ladder is metal one end in the water the other on the ground. Then there is that pin hole leak that you thought you were replacing the water the kids splashed out of the pool.

__________________
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty, pristine body but rather to come sliding in sideways, all used up and exclaiming, "Wow, what a ride!"
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26
Good Answers: 2
#3

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

01/07/2008 6:47 PM

Thank you both for good answers. Now let me clarify. The cord like and extension cord 110-240V is IN the water with contacts touching the water. As I see it there are two paths. The shortest is from the hot to the neutral or ground on hte plus itself with no current anywhere else. If the circuit had GFI it would have shut down in milliseconds and no harm done. However, let's assume no GFI. Then the paths are either to the plug itself or to ground via the pump, drain or leakage. the question is UNLESS a person were to hold or be VERY close to the end of the cord, how and why would the current path be through the person's heart or nervous system?

As you can see from the photo they had more beer than brains.

Thanks

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 173
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

01/07/2008 11:26 PM

Great PICTURE !!!!

__________________
Unless you're the lead dog on the sled, the view is always the same....
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32048
Good Answers: 838
#5
In reply to #3

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

01/08/2008 4:17 AM

B.hell! Are these contestants in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_Awards?

John:11, 35!

IT NEEDS TURNING OFF QUICK BEFORE SOMEONE GETS HURT/KILLED!

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4448
Good Answers: 143
#6
In reply to #3

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

01/08/2008 8:52 AM

You're worried about the wrong pool! Think gene pool, man.

Seriously, the water in the pool is conductive. If any of it has run over the edge, there is a possible path to ground. And, is that vinyl at all conductive?

Remember current doesn't just take the shortest possible path; it takes all possible paths in proportion. You only need a little over 5 mA through the body (wet skin has a resistance less than 1000 Ohms) to be fatal.

The other thing to worry about is whether there is a ground on that cord. GFIs do not trip for current between hot and neutral; they work on the differential with respect to ground.

__________________
"Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Biology - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Fans of Old Computers - ZX-81 - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Centurion, South Africa
Posts: 3921
Good Answers: 97
#7

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

01/08/2008 3:18 PM

First - DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!!

They may ask a child to bring them another beer. The child brings it and stand with bare feet on a wet spot. Imagine the newspaper heading the next day. "Man and child mysteriously shocked to death in a safe pool".

What would happen with a pin size hole in the vinyl?

__________________
Never do today what you can put of until tomorrow - Student motto
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26
Good Answers: 2
#8

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

01/08/2008 3:34 PM

I understand clearly the stupidity of the photo. As my wife noted unfortunately they look old enough to have already passed their stupid genes to another generation. HOWEVER, no one has yet defined the real RISK to those IN the pool. Assuming no GFI, would current really flow from the floating plug (assuming it submerges) through any one of the participants UNLESS they touch something grounded WITHOUT touching the plug itself? WHY would current flow through them and not just from the hot to neutral or ground on the floating plug? I look forward to enough of an explanation so that i can understand the path and the reason for it. Thanks.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - Old Salt Hobbies - CNC - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rosedale, Maryland USA
Posts: 5198
Good Answers: 266
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

01/08/2008 4:38 PM

For one water that is pure is not conductive it is a dielectric. It is the dissolve minerals in the water that make it conductive just as those in the human body. The one that is the best conductor I don't know but there are a lot more minerals per square inch in the human body. So I would think we are. The instant voltage potential is applied the water will act as a big capacitor. Electrons rushing back and forth in the water to the pool liner at 60 Hz. As in most conductors current flows easier on the surface. That means the path of lest resistance being across the surface the down your legs to the pool bottom.

__________________
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty, pristine body but rather to come sliding in sideways, all used up and exclaiming, "Wow, what a ride!"
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26
Good Answers: 2
#10

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

01/08/2008 4:51 PM

Thank you OZZB. I think it would be fair to assume that the water is not pure and has lots of dissolved minerals and as such would itself be fairly conductive. It is interesting to note that the surface is most conductive, thank you I did not know that. Even so, UNLESS one of the people were located such that their lower extremities were near something grounded (and certainly it is fair to assume there are micro leaks in the vinyl) then that would indeed be a path. Also, assuming all of that, if they wer swimming and NOT touching anything then they would, in theory, be safe?

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4448
Good Answers: 143
#13
In reply to #10

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

01/08/2008 9:28 PM

You're right, the water is a conductor. Even if you filled the pool with distilled water, it would be conductive within a few hours, especially if those guys got in.

The current does not particularly flow on the surface. That refers to the skin effect which is not really a factor here.

Current does not flow in one path. It flows in all possible paths. The size of the current varies according to the resistance of the path. You can do an experiment with a 12V battery, a glass pan of water, and a voltmeter where you put the battery leads in the pan near one another and then measure the potential at different points. You only need a little to do the deed.

__________________
"Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4666
Good Answers: 802
#11

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

01/08/2008 8:55 PM

More pics from the same party... Gotta love the flip-flop flotation system!

Linked from JoeTedesco.org

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26
Good Answers: 2
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

01/08/2008 9:18 PM

Thanks for the additional pictures. I can see from the car license plate that it is in Europe, but do you know what country?

Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: California, USA, where the Godless live next door to God.
Posts: 4666
Good Answers: 802
#14
In reply to #12

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

01/09/2008 3:24 AM

Someone else in another forum posted the location as Kreis Steinfurt, Germany from the letters in the beginning of the license plate. The pics come from a gallery of some computer geek gaming club. The sequence starts off with 3 guys in the pool, then 3 guys with 3 beers, then more beers and a table in the pool, then more beers and someone gives them an electric grill, then the extension cord is too short etc. etc.

http://www.linuxno.de/_data/gallery/nwl7/

__________________
** All I every really wanted to be, was... A LUMBERJACK!.**
Register to Reply
Power-User
Australia - Member - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 480
Good Answers: 35
#15

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

01/09/2008 3:39 AM

I've been following this thread for a while so I thought I'd throw in my 5c worth.

We're talking about current here and electricity with always follow the path of Least resistance.

Since resistance is a function of resistivity, length and cross sectional area of a conductor.

R=pL/A

R=Resistance in ohms
p=resistivity on ohm\meters
L=Length
A=Cross sectional area

It seems to me that the water must still be pure enough (high resistivity) combined with the relative distances being great enough that the path of least resistance will be directly from the Active terminal (first exposed copper) directly to the Neutral within the plug and power board.

The only path with less resistance would be the equipment on the table.

Therefore the guys (idiots) in the pool are still breathing.

Also thier hearts are not in the circuit, they are part of a "unterminated" circuit at the time the pictures were taken.

All this could change in a flash if someone were to Pee in the pool.

All feedback greatly appreciated

Sapper

__________________
It's all about the Boom! - MythBusters
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4448
Good Answers: 143
#16
In reply to #15

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

01/09/2008 7:21 AM

I don't mean to be a pain-in-the-neck, but, since this involves safety, I'm going to stick my nose in again.

First, I think these photos are a setup - maybe a couple engineers having fun and not really exposing themselves to electric shock.

Second, it is confusing to say that electricity follows the path of least resistance. It does follow that path, BUT it also follows paths of higher resistance. Otherwise my 100W lamp wouldn't work when my 800W toaster is on.

The water cannot be pure enough to not conduct. You would have to have some sort of active system coupled with very clean guys to achieve that. You can do a little experiment to see this. Go down to the nearest greengrocer (maybe that one on Kenton Lane where the young lady in kumquats has been flirting with you) and buy a bottle of distilled water. Then set your Ohmeter on the highest range and put the leads in the water. You'll see it conduct.

The dangerous part is that it only takes a little more than 5 mA to kill and that a wet human's resistance can be as low as a few hundred Ohms if they have an abrasion for example. In a worst case situation, 2 or 3 Volts across one of these guys would be fatal.

If you know anyone at the local electric utility company ask them about how they have to test their rubber gloves, ladders etc. because these high quality insulators do indeed break down. So cheap vinyl from ??? is how good an insulator? Or, as someone pointed out, what about a pinhole?

Bottom line to this rant - this is incredibly dangerous.

__________________
"Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32048
Good Answers: 838
#19

Re: Electrocution in a vinyl pool?

01/29/2025 7:19 AM

What kind of moron would ever try such a thing?

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 20 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (1); Hendrik (1); JRaef (3); LaMarTEK (4); ozzb (2); phoenix911 (1); PWSlack (2); Sapper (1); Sniccus (1); Sparkstation (1); TVP45 (3)

Previous in Forum: Unequal Load Sharing Between Generators   Next in Forum: 2-4.5V to 5V, 1A Boost DC-DC Converter Circuit.

Advertisement