Shipping Container Housing

Another potential temporary shelter is Used Trailers (45 foot) (example)

if they have wheels, it helps with a portion of the transport issues.

Perhaps used containers and trailers and aid can also be moved by ocean-going barge & tugboat.

Chris

once again not stackable

greatly increasing the transportation costs

Containers are moved on highway by means of a chasis, essentially a trailer specially designed for moving containers...

http://www.chassisking.com/products/container-chassis/

this I know. I'm just throwing it out there.. I'm not saying its the best idea.

A blackhawk chopper can lift an empty 40' container...

How many blackhawk choppers are allocated to rebuilding Haiti?

How much do they burn an hour?

Is there fuel available, and are the helicopters available?

I think there is an aircraft carrier sent on station.

How many bulldozers are working in Port au Prince, and what are they doing to what plan?

So far on this site and thread best reports have come from the law offices of Countryman & McDaniel. (310-342-6500).

The helicopter option for moving things may be better than I understand.

Sure enough I like helicopters, but wow, they burn up a lot of fuel and there really aren't that many of them, and they require a great deal of maintainence.

We might get three or maybe, if we are really lucky 7 or God knows if the Russians want to show off 10 heavy lift helicopters to show up to work dropping containers around Port-au-Prince.

Nobody I've heard of really trusts the Haitian government to pay them for their work.

Captain Moosie talked about kicking butts of the US Military participating in this effort to help Haiti, and I wonder whose going to kick the butts of the Haitians who have control of the place.

I've got a few problems, and I haven't even got a bank account anymore.

Transcendia is not really a joke at all to me.

My local attorney was given cash before I ran out. I did give him a very nicely professionally framed thing I'd made for his last bit of successful defense of me.

I want to help the working class people of Haiti get through this period, as I might need help, and do, but I tell you, somebody needs to tell the empowered of Haiti they need to say and pay some in their own behalf.

It has been helpful that when I have been down and out and hurt that I did try to give whatever I had in gratitude for the help received.

It was not a recommendation at all of the Haitian government that when I called their UN mission I was told to call Unicef and the Red Cross.

"It's not whether or not you always do the right thing, but whether or not you keep moving." -RSD Hey Chris. You are a genius.

HaitiWorld, the game...

Throw that together and we'll sell it.

http://www.maerskline.com/link/?page=news&path=/news/story_page/10/Haiti

Chris,

in your drawing concept of the herringbone layout.

Can you do a sketch of two containers side by side and in the heeringbone layout, less trailers. The next section placed approx 14 feet from the end going up each side..gives outdoor space between each unit if evenly staggered in the herring bone. (could be covered in later for shade etc and outdoor cooking).

Good access and allows a second container be placed on top at later date if requested for more space.

Use your concept of setups of twelve each row side...composting toilet at the end, across a section before the next herringbone setup....also place KY's idea of a rain water collection system in the same area as the composting toilet....use an IBC frame tank with his idea of a tarp feeding the tank...use scaffold poles to hold up.

Go four lanes of herringbone by 12 double units and the communal toilet/water area...allow space for a small truck around this section.

Another set of good ideas.

Geoff Daly NH

Helloo Guys,

Please remember that the Tare Weight of an empty 40-foot long steel shipping container is approximately 8,000 pounds.

I don't know if a UH-60 Blackhawk would be able to even lift a container off the ground. I'd have to check in with a Warrant officer buddy of mine who is an UH-60 command pilot in the NY Nat'l Guard and see what he thinks about lifting these containers. I really have my doubts, plus it's quite inefficient.

Having an old Sikorsky Skycrane laying about would be the ticket, but I believe that all have been phased out of service in the US Military....most of the short hour units were gobbled up by the fire fighting companies in the western USA. I know for a fact that they can lift the containers as I have seen it with my own two eyes back in the late 70's!

Also, don't know if a Sikorsky CH-47 Chinook would be able to lift and SAFELY haul a container....both the US Army and US Marine Corps utilize "Shit-hooks". Anyone know any CH-47 pilots to get the low down on capabilities????? Remember, you could Google for the info, but the published maximum hauling weight that you'd find may have to factor down for various safety reasons....such as: fuel load, altitude, ambient air temp., relative humidity, & THE LIST GOES ON AND ON.........

Just a few more logs tossed onto the bonfire.....

I did some work years ago on load measuring equipment for the external cargo hooks on CH47s. The object was to be able to jettison a load if it became dangerous.

The CH47 carries long loads using it's front & rear cargo hooks &, if one of these fails, the load will pivot on the other hook & swing round into the helicopter. Our system jettisoned the load if one hook failed.

From memory I think the front & rear hooks are rated at 10,000 lbs each & the centre hook at 20,000 lbs.

Designation: Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk
Classification Type: Medium Lift Transport Helicopter
Contractor: General Electric / United Technologies - USA
Country of Origin: United States

Cargo hauling capacity is 2,640lbs of freight held internally. An 8,000lb freight limit is imposed for external hauling.

Haul 20' cans for condos

A combat radius of 368 miles is possible with a ferry range of 1,380 miles.

The Mi-26 would indubitably suffice though fuel consumption and maintaince would be high

Even if problems might later turn up with this idea, it is nonetheless superlative. Thank you for getting the ball rolling on the many great and generous comments that have followed.

Thanks especially to Transcendian for the efforts to present this to suitable agencies. Let us all hope that this bears fruit.

News as of 1:35 PM EST, from Lansford Bell of Clemson U. Civil Engineering is that the Haitians are dumping the containers they have, and not stockpiling them for any purpose.

At Clemson the College of Architecure, and Civil Engineering are separated, and Professor Lansford is working on a water system in Cange, 40 miles out of Port-au-Prince.

If the shipping containers we here have identified as useful options for strong housing are being dumped by the Haitians, we obviously have not gotten through to the Haitians, or anyone else.

If they can move them to dump them, you'd think they could move them to use them.

There is lots of traffic on the main arteries.. there are trucks there.. I don't know about interlink trailers.. but there are hundreds of containers stacked here at the port. check it out on google maps.

at the same time.. those tent hospitals (I assume its a hospital?) are working hard... why not use the tarps to insulate the shipping containers?

I have been doing some reading, and even watched a youtube report of shootings at the Port-au-Prince airport from Haiti TV, that was all in French, and hard for me to understand, since I don't speak French.

Does look like right now that tents are needed.

Of common tools it looks like shovels are important for latrine digging.

While we see shipping containers as valuable for shelter, we have always agreed that they were dependent on the ability to move them, regardless of their condition, either converted, or unconverted.

We have postulated even that it would be practical to use them in conjunction to the tents. Hence the news come from the Clemson professor that they were being dumped, upsets us.

My recommendation is that the Haitians be made aware that the shipping containers can be made livable, and are valuable, and actually if set on whatever property they have tenuous hold and titled deed to would help them maintain ownership of that property.

It appears that Signal FM is the radio station giving out information to the citizens of Haiti. If you know anyone who speaks French well, and can call that station and get on with our suggestion that the Haitians value their shipping containers, and ask for more, I suggest you encourage them to try to get on that station with our suggestion.

Our suggestions concerning the viability of shipping containers are long term as a solution to the shelter problem.

However long term is really about 2 to 3 months in this case.

Of simple tools I do think from my intensive study that shovels are highly recommended since latrines and the control of water flows will be important in disease prevention, as well as foundation preparation for anything even as self contained as the shipping container.

It does not need much of a foundation.

If you know anyone there working try to pass on our judgements.

Two friends of mine are already on their way as medics, if not already there.

I see that John Travolta flew over and dropped some stuff off.

I hear my neighbor John Edwards went over for a few days and has returned.

Should I go by myself? Obviously I haven't got much else going on.

I'd sure not expect to get much of any worth done in one day, and would expect no less than three months before any good was to show from it.

Think they'd allow me to use the passport I made?

What sort of tents should be bought? What do you think are the best shovels?

When digging I got out all from crowbars to digging bars to picks maddocks axes and shovels. -damn roots and rocks.

Anybody know who makes the best tents?

Don't know if they have PVC pipe, but you can roll on that.

Very discouraging to hear the reports that the Haitians are simply not interested in using the containers in any shape or form. They may soon regret those types of decisions come the time they encounter the first of the Tropical storms or even a Hurricane, as the tents will prove to be ineffective shelter and get blown away or torn.

I've had the privilege of living in tents for nearly 9 months during Desert Shield/Desert Storm and I tell you it's no picnic, especially when we experienced the desert sand storms.

Wish I could speak to someone at the Haitian "Signal FM" radio station, but I'm afraid my "Parisian" French just won't cut it, and besides, it's been over 19 years since I really got to use the language (Talking to French Troops during DS/DS)....frankly I need a refresher course in French since my command of the language now SUX Moose Wazzzzooo in a BIG WAY!! ***LOL***

May have to locate a few old time friends that still speak it well enough and see where we can go from there?????

I for one wouldn't want to lift one of those containers overhead....hate to be the last guy out from underneath one when it's time to rest.....he'd get crushed to death for sure.

Easiest way to move the containers about would be placing many rollers under them, just in the same manner the ancient Egyptians moved around those huge blocks of stone used to construct the Great Pyramids.

"Easiest way..."

absolutely... my image shows the men using straps.. it would have to be carried low to the ground with straps over the shoulders.. 'appliance moving' style.

good idea about pvc pipe. I was just thinking that if they have the manpower, then we need to suggest and show how to move these things, even if by hand. best solution is cranes and roller trucks.. but our forebears did all their hard work by handl lever, rope, etc., and developed a good skill with it. (ie barnraising, bridgebuilding) This kind of fundamental understanding underpins all technological development.

Chris

thank you for the political scene bio... I guess I was hoping that this idea (use of containers) will develop enough momentum on its own merit that it will not be ignored. For myself.. I am without political means or understanding of how else to make a difference. I am glad to see others here with those skills and knowledge of how to make things happen.

GA.

Chris

I am not opposed to tents, especially as for the unmodified container, I see them as being used in conjunction. As well, as the containers are modified it is pointed out a fly tent temperature moderation is achieved for which the tent my serve, though a regular old tarp might do as well.

There has been some discussion of editing this thread, for it is long.

We do not expect you, or others to have read it all.

Clemson University was reported to have developed a design that also utilized 55 gallon drums for food and water production.

Combined with similar 55 gallon drum systems that generate gas from waste for cooking shall be a good way to go in an environment that is very much lacking in infrastructure.

I am trying to get a bit more information from the Architecture Department of Clemson University as to where they are at.

I understand that some of the moves by the Haitian people to rebuild with whatever scraps they can find are motivated by a desire to hold onto their little plot of land.

Any sort of structure is preferable to them in light of how it represents a claim.

I have visited the USAID site, and the site of the 82 airborne, and others.

Neither really seems to have what would amount to a "suggestion box."

I think we will try to give you as much good information as we can prior to your upcoming meeting.

I for one am grateful that you have come around.

Here is an interesting article from New York Times that puts the political/social issues in perspective. Note that Bill Clinton has a special role, for anyone with a link to him. Also, there is a Haitian cited that is in to civic action that may prove to be a valuable contact...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/31/world/americas/31reconstruct.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

Geof Daly-

I am in the process of trying to extract the most pertinent information from this thread, with the idea that a lot of this information could be useful not only in the current crisis, but in future situations as well. Perhaps we could all work together to put together a "White Paper", as Transcendian has suggested, that could serve at least as a beginning for a proposal for future rescue missions, even if we are too late for the current one. I think a key aspect of any such proposal would be to have good reference to what has been done in the past...and there are some good starting points for that here in this forum.

I also think the Clinton/Bush foundations may be more willing to pursue something like this, becasue they are not so hampered by politics anymore...

another crazy idea.... how about developing a hovercraft flatbed unit that is sized to slip under a container, and move it with a few men. (bigger hills - pull with car.)

this can also move the container over water. unfortunately I don't know the power-to-weight requirements... anyone here know if this is feasible?

Your basic principals

Note the platform 'suspended' between main body and water - this is actually the lift surface and peripheral duct creator.

-------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------

Below; is the "open plenum" design and prone to spilling all it's lift.

But is the "popular diagram" - and why most home builds don't work "as expected" as the momentum curtain produced in the plenum design is absent.

Equally there are a multitude of detail errors in the top one.

So use the lower ones cross section as the basic profile and fit a plenum plate to give narrower side vents than the top diagram, so the area of the vents total is similar to the x 4 fan intake area. It will appear to be a quite narrow gap (because it is)

Starters for you any way - I'll have a look for something real - in due course.

Thanks Kyzine...

I was just thinking along the lines of the 'inverted air hockey table" with skirts to control the escaping air. As the bottom of the container is flat, then the top of the craft would also be flat. On this principle, on might be able to turn the container itself into a hovercraft by drilling holes in the floor, and providing a flexible skirt.. but that would let bugs in when you want to make a shelter out of it.

so better to just build a flatbed style unit that is reusable for other containers. I'm thinking a pair of say 40hp air cooled fan unit (motorcycle engine?) on either end of the flatbed, plus a simple trailer hitch.. then any vehicle with a hitch could pull it.

Chris

I agree with all that. For sure, in the oilpatch, everything that goes to an oil lease is on skids, and is just skidded around on site. As Stueywright just pointed out, skidding will not harm the units on gravel. They may well damage any paved roads, and for that reason, wheels of some sort would be valuable. I will give this some thought. I'm sure such things probably exist, but it isn't rocket science either.

I will try to figure out if I can get this thread passed along to someone in the Canadian Government.

Chris

Dear Spacecannon,

I am in full agreement. Thats why I've recommended just getting them around town to work with the tents till they can be modified.

This is the reason we needed to address the issue of how to move them, really more than how to modify them.

Stu suggests we just drag 'em into place with tractors, or whatever, and forget the niceities.

"BUT RIGHT NOW IF STORM SHELTERS ARE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION THEN THE AUTHORITIES ARE LOOKING AT A MASS KILL IF THEY ARE HIT DIRECTLY BY A STORM."

Lynn,

This sort of statement makes me cringe... but mostly because it is so true, and causes a vivid image which I don't want to see. I am voting this to be a GA because of it's validity and needs to be heard.

Chris

how much weight does it take to hold a shipping container down in a 200 mph wind?

75 - 100 tons

But using the integral lock down components reduces the weight considerably

Hi, Guest, if your figures are correct then containers flying about in storms would be higher on the list of things that become missiles.

Look at the maximum gross wt. ~ 30 tons. Do we have evidence in the aerial shots of containers taking flight?

Wind moving things is also greatly dependent on it getting under. Be that under a roof, due to window or wall damage, or under the building as a whole.

This is not likely with a container sitting on the ground.

Unlocked stacked empties may however blow over, but this thread is far from tiered constructions found in container architecture apartments.

Numbers please.

I disagreed with your post as being off topic strongly, for all along in this thread discussion the issue of whether or not shipping containers will work for the needs of the Haitians is married to the need to be able to move them.

We are talking about moving a great number of them in a short amount of time with limited equipment, and limited money, and even limits to organized labor with motives to work hard.

We are also talking about having them moved in Port-au-Prince in Haiti where it is reported that most people are real poor and 2/3s of the country is engaged in agriculture.

- at least that's what their site says. It's sort of hard to believe everything you read since there are 8 million or so to the country and about a third seemed to have been living in Port-au-Prince.

Any way I thought it was an excellent post since there ought to be tractors of some number more than other specialized moving equipment.

I was going to vote this a GA, but could only take an off topic vote off.

I agree trans, stu's was a GA.

Spacecannon

I just reduced the balance of self-imposed OT to zero. One more vote will throw the score into GA. Has this ever happened before?

Hi Stuey, I think the skids are a good solve. Easy to knock up, add a couple of spigots and tilt the container and pop them under.

Tow from skids solves the tie off problem.

Presence of skids solves sliding off the crown of the road or down a cross slope.

GA.

I note the guys still worrying about small maneuvers and adjustments. It is amazing what a mob and some pry-bars can achieve.

At each end of this container moving "more hands" is the answer

The skids solve 20 to 30 km movements, but will be 'speed limited' due to heat so wear, on some surfaces.

Skids may be the perfect solution for mud and erosion affected roads. I.e. superior to wheels. A lager tractor may pull a string of 5 to 10? where a truck carrying or towing one is bogged, or stopped by a wash-away.

However I think we should continue to look at clip on wheel concept for longer distances and 'speed'. Something like Garthh's trolley, but more road than car-park sized wheels?

Something tilt and click using massed manpower?

Or put aside the western engineering-auto-think of less manpower - and embrace the resource.

Theres a critter called a Boat Dolly that is roughly going to work for manual means... It might be simple enough to be able to scab together from recylced parts and materials on site. also a few other dolly links after.

http://www.nonprofitfuel.ca/Assembled%20dolly_1.jpg

http://1st-mustangrims.com/equipments/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/car-dolly-300x300.jpg

http://www.mmbhe.com/listings/images/MHA50-Y-93652.jpg

Chris

The 3rd world approach - as disasters have that effect anywhere on any one.

I don't think you have to do this;

Don't need front and rear axles, turntable - it's not heavy.

This would do, in principal;

So what you want is a stub axle and tyre, on a plate or frame, that hooks on to the bottom rail, (using a bit of side tilting?), and is set by some means at about 10% to the rear of half way. (for weight on "tow ball")

Then you want a clip on "A" frame (or horse shafts) to tow & steer.

The container is a structure, it just needs the "clip on" rolling and pulling "modules".

"Stability"?

...better than this.

Chris 288,

that last set of container drawings/photo is a container I know well..has a steel floor for sliding/skidding equipment into after removing the front swing away bar. These containers could be laid on there sides and welded together...double wide unit.

Is just as strong as when in its original correct orientation. Ends could be fitted with doors/windows easily. Again spray the exterior ROOF with WHITE TRUCK LINER PAINT or build the slant raised roof for air flow?

The photos of the shanty structures are just like I saw when in Haiti on business a few years ago...container type shelter would definitely look neater and tidier...plus less chance of fires...saw one and it was about 1/3rd way into a huge grouped shanty town....the firemen could not get to it except by trying to drag hoses in by hand through the maze of corridors/access lanes...I believe 12 peopel died and many burnt.

At least the container idea would allow better access for all when properly aligned.

Like your idea of stacking and then slanting one as a stair access with cross slats nailed/screwed into the wood floor to get a footing going up.....foreget OSHA it will work for what is intended.

Lets keep up the ideas and see if we can get the thread Trans spoke about posted to the Whitehouse YouTube and Facebook sites...you have to sign up and be accepted (see my previous posting)

Geoff Daly NH

I signed up for Twitter and did a Tweet. Name I used was same as I have used here:Transcendian.

- Simply said Engineers recommend shipping container housing and micro infrastructure systems.

I am not familiar at all with Twitter.

Still it may be a good way to get out information.

On other scores concerning communications, looks like the homepage announcement has been taken down. I'm grateful to the administrators for leaving it up for as long as they did. In future communications to others I shall direct them to the Search all of CR4 box for quick connection to the thread.

There is another way, but I'm not good at it.

As far as tying down, or strapping down or spiking down the containers:

Modifications to the containers are dependent on plasma torches or cutting torches.

Can we come up with a shape that can be cut from container materials that could be hand sledge hammered into the ground?

I am just afraid that anything that is not really really simple, will not get done.

At some point a cutting torch crew is going to be called for there, for onsite modifications.

The spike downs may well be cut from some container parts with a grab birdsmouth simple to sledge hammer into the ground.

Might have to use a fair number, but at least they could be made from the materials available.

I would still suggest dirt screws like those used on mobile homes, however they would have to be sent there, on the other hand i saw pix of the colapsed pres. palace that had alot of bent rebar that could be made into tiedown stakes, a 3 foot rebar stake/spike sledge hammered into the ground might work, but I don't how many would be needed per container cause I don't know how many pounds it takes to pullout. Once driven into the ground a loop could be bent in the end of the rebar or welded and cable/strap looped thru it and then thru the existing holes in the corners of the container or over the top.

Just trying to use existing material on hand for the short term.

what do ya'll think?

Nice Mr. Daly, Ever flown a plane? Seems like half of it is talking on the radio.

Control: "Turn to heading 270 766Whiskey Charlie."

-"Turning to heading 270."

HQ at port, yes.

B. Yes, though we need to tell them winds could blow even the containers away, so pointing into the prevailing winds influences their judgements on placement.

C. Yes.

D. Yes. (Who controls the port and the available space and tools?)

E. Yes and No. (Condemn unsafe damaged buildings. Bulldoze them. Don't take back to HQ much of anything at all. Maintain one way traffic as much as possible.)

F. Yes and No.: Foundation Prep Crew, and Transport Crew shall need to co-ordinate. The Allocation of Resource Directors shall have to make some judgement calls. At Port Modification Crews and Mobile Modification crews will be the ones with the most valuable and limited manpower tools and mobility.

Lot system, while fair, may conflict with manpower and tool availability. Apply a Zone system to obviate bottlenecking. (A comparison is the Zone System used in Taxi dispatching.)

G. and F. Combine. (Deeds to Land and Property need to be addressed. Many owners have been killed. Attorney input needed here.)

Important to accept that many are moving back to areas of the city away from camps and supplies simply to maintain their claims.

cwarner_711 made an important contribution, among many, in that he suggested moving some of the city instead of concentrating on rubble clearing and foundational preparation. Locating what land is least difficult and has the most ready surfaces and resources is an important factor to consider.

One strong point politically as far as CR4 is concerned is that CR4 has no history of ever doing anything to help, hurt, or influence much of anybody outside of its membership. Basically most of us of CR4 simply like to solve problems for the fun of it.

Maybe later we'll get around to getting corrupted.(emoticon)

Good, Chris, There are some services logistics to be sorted. I bet the ancient Babylonians wish they had containers, Eh? The gardens would be still there. The inner spaces could be lit by the new technology in 'light tubes' for daylight hours. Much like a multi-branch chimney in you earlier render, with mirrors. Seriously, with ADD applications, like ours, the world will embrace much different architecture in the future. With an exoskeleton you can stack 'em as high as you like. Haiti could have a tourist attraction rivalling the Arabs??? They're made of Hi-Ten steel. Service life of 50 years with an impervious coating. And then easy to dismantle. The exo could infact be the build/ dismantle crane too. Could be built like an elevator as an alternative style. Sorry I'm not skilled enough with CAD to render one for you. I'm a 'pencil-and-a-pad' guy. Too Old. Wanna start another Company? GorhamWright Imagineering? Gotta Go and do some work.... Cheers for now, Stu.

Wanna start another Company? GorhamWright Imagineering?

careful what you wish for...

Ky, great. The 'use what's there' method is excellent. If you had the space you would certainly pile earth on top, both for insulation ( everyone, check 'earthberm housing'), and for stability, but depending on the usage. Windows are a small problem with this method. The urgency is to effectively house the people. To PROPERLY house the people can come later. The re-establishment of utility infrastructure is also of prime importance. I see the need to have the community, in the beginnings, as individually autonomous as possible, 'till the public facillities become re-established. That means collect your own water (EVERY roof structure) and CONSERVE it, and treat your own sewage, ( Composting, manual collection etc. Don't laugh, it used to be the norm in YOUR town) and deposition of "hard" waste (packaging, etc) into public collection bins for trans-shipment to sorting areas. As you can see there are jobs becoming available all during this process. Communities will get to understand who really are the important members. I see a huge on-the-ground education system required to educate the locals in sustainable survival techniques. Fire, lighting, washing, security etc. A good old dose of religion probably wouldn't go astray either, as crisis crowds definitely need guidance, a staying hand, and focus. " do you need to cut containers?" Not in the initial stages. The urgency is to get people out of the weather, into some kind of secure abode, however temporary. An industry could be encouraged to 'service' they temp. housing into permanents at a later stage. Planning and foresight for this phase is a MUST though, and at the very outset of operations. Cheers for now, Stu.

Kyzine,

Another way to keep the container cool is to add a simple tube chimney w guy wires and hole in top, and open a door or opening on the other end. the heat will convect up the chimney. (if you are cooking indoors, this can be taking care of the smoke too.)

Another idea for flood control.. this one is definitely phase 2... dig trenches into the soil (where possible) and bury containers end to end (with ends removed), creating a basic tunnel system, draining water to the ocean.

Chris

Actually a grinder with a cutting wheel is an excellent way to cut the walls, and quite commonly used. (see here)

but torches are portable and work if there is no power available.

Chris

Hi Garthh,

I agreed with what you said.. concrete is and will be a technological engineering material in short supply for a while I think.

However, if such should become available, here is the seed of an idea for quick-connect/disconnect anchoring for containers.

it will work with pads such as this, or with sonotube anchors.. and some thought should also be given to how to disconnect from embedded anchors with shackles.

What i'm suggesting is a 4" thick pad (anchored in other ways if necessary) under the entire container. and an additional 8" perimeter for the pins & pipes. On the back end is a pad (24") that might be used for additional equipment or water tanks/barrels.

Chris

Chris, nice drawing, but you'll need much more concrete than you describe (and depict in your sketch) if you use an anchoring pad in order to resist uplift, overturning and sliding for a CAT 5 Hurricane.

Please refer to my submitted calculations near the beginning of the Blog thread for a standard 40 foot long shipping container. I forget which post # it was.

I provided the overall concrete anchoring pad area and thickness.......you can modify you anchoring pin design by providing a steel angle at each container corner (partially submerged into the slab) with enough vertical angle leg provide to pass through you horizontally oriented anchor lock pin. Of course I'd have to design the anchoring angle to resist the wind uplift and horizontal forces....no problemo.

That way, you only have to drop the container on top of the anchorage slab and not provide any relief (sunken section)....a smooth flat surface is easier and CHEAPER to construct, and wastes all the extra time to construct a relief and possibly 2 separate concrete placements......ohhh excuse me: concrete placement = concrete pour for the laymen out there!!! LOL BTW, for those not in the know, you NEVER POUR concrete. Instead, you "PLACE CONCRETE" into a mold of sorts because it is a material in it's "PLASTIC STATE INITIALLY". This is something you learning on the first day of concrete design course when you're a Freshman Civil Engineering Student....and it's drilled into your head ever after! Now it's your turn to pass the baton and correct someone when they mention "pouring concrete". You pour water, but not a plastic material. Got it??? I hope so, because it's a pet peeve of mine and I don't even mind correcting much older engineers that I who are either truly uninformed or just plain lazy, and in some cases, just plain dumber than a box of rocks. ***LOL***

See, you learned something new today!!! Aren't you happy???!!! LOL

CaptMoosie-

Your calculations have been incorporated (complete) in the summation I put together- you can refer people to that document in the future- I have it posted in my public folder on Skydrive, if you would like a copy.

By the way- in this part of the world, we have to pour concrete, because the local workforce hasn't a clue about how to set concrete. Of course, we are not Civil Engineers of your ilk. "Setting" concrete in this part of the world refers to what you would most likely call "curing". Next time I have to opportunity to work with US-trained civil engineers and work force, I will remember to "set" the concrete, rather than pour it, but here, I have to pour it...

This summation was sent to USAID, via my Congressman Price, sometime back now. (Leastways I thought so, though we called it a White Paper Draft I thought.)

No word of acknowledgement back from the Congressman's office. I did pester them there a fair amount.

I'm not familiar with Skydrive? Is it something to Google? Is there a title for reference?

I am still interested in whether or not explosives would speed up rebuilding in Port-au-Prince, or other places in the nation.

What sorts of explosives would be best? Is plain old TNT pretty much the best choice?

I'm figuring that if they can't even get ahold of many trucks or tractors, there can't be much in the way of heavy earthmoving equipment available either.

I'm also figuring it will be hard to get people away from the port, since it seems to be where employment is, either by whatever free enterprise exists, or from UN payouts.

If UN payouts continue and people are hired to move rubble, as something infront of everybody and simply done, because it is infront of them as a mess using manpower and wheelbarrows, then it would seem that explosives would break things into smaller bits, and speed things along.

I'm also attracted to the Thermite? for burning holes in containers. Sounds fast to me. Imagine some standard hole sizes either pushed on like gaskets and set afire, or run out of something like a caulk gun, and set afire on the container metal.

Is this done? I'm not an expert with explosives.

Skydrive is a free service from MS where you can store stuff like files, pictures, etc. to be shared with others. Go to MS Home (www.msn.com) and look for Skydrive. It's part of the new Cloud thing- not something I am generally in favor of, but the idea is to have a repository where people can have access to those things I want to make public...

Trans,

Just wondering why you are asking about explosives and what types to use. Well, there are many types one could use, but in the end it all depends on what you want them to do. I'll not be getting all the different ones here. I don't want to go a foul of HLS ever seeing ever listening net snoopers. If you want to learn more there are many websites, both good and bad, which you can find with a Google search. In the end, yes TNT is the easiest and most stable to use, but you need blasting caps (a detonator), wire or fuse, and if using wire you also need the electronic shooting box....also need blasting mats. If removing rock you need to employ drilling rigs to make the blasting holes.

Leave blasting options to an experienced LICENSED explosives blaster, who is insured and bondable. I doubt that there are many in Haiti who are.

For cutting the holes in the container walls and ceilings yes you can employ Thermite.....and no, it's not exactly an explosive per see. When mixed over a low heat, it forms into a putty-like consistency. To use, all you need to do is roll it into a snake rope between your hands, then press lightly but firmly onto the metal surface. Use a timed fuse chord to ignite or a match stuck-in backwards which you light with a cigarette or cigar.

Hope that helps.

And in their spare time & thermite

plenty of locked gates & wall safes that need new openings

I did explain that the option had come up as a way to work with rubble.

I can check with someone else, though their experience was in purely military operations intended to either kill people, or destroy bridges.

A caulk gun with Thermite seems like a good idea.

Far as nomenclature associated with the very important building material that is concrete, most people call it a pour in my experience.

According to stuff I read it takes 30 years for concrete to fully cure.

I found it interesting that the Romans invented concrete, and that the Coliseum is made of it, and that they had different mixes of the ash and lime for each level.

Hi Trans, though I did give the Wiki for thermite, it still appears it is not understood.

The basic material is dry 'grains', which "burn" very hot, quite slowly.

The traditional use is welding.

Principal is the welding of steel rails (train lines) which is remarkably unexciting and no more dangerous than pouring molten steel. You will see a fin in the flange area and rail foot at welded joints.

When I brought this up in terms of cutting containers, it was as something that can be made easily and used safely in the 'unsophisticated civilian manner' out of stuff almost guaranteed to be on hand in Haiti.

The limitations are the surface to be cut must be horizontal, or it would fall off, and a need for a low wind place and/or calm dry days.

I.e. the basic version is fairly useless as a safe or door entry media. It will not "cut concrete"

Also; you do not start 'regular' thermite with a match. 'Regular fuses' are inappropriate, especially for a trail. How to make it, and best light it, obviously should remain unsaid here. As is; how to modify it for other purposes.

The basic form would not run through a caulking gun.

Nor would that typical volume provide enough bulk in the trail to maintain critical heat.

All you are doing is melting out a path, so it will be messy and a bit random, like a giant amateur oxy. So as a window/shutter, door creator - not so good. For a big hole for a vent - not bad - but you'd have to trim and weld, or form a skirt anyway - so why not neater methods now available?

It still has some use for cutting a container in halves or quarters length wise (to make balconies or ramps. I.e. this suited a couple of Chris ideas.)

Thermite suited way back when we were going in on a 'first response' basis, scratching for resources. Jigsaws, screws and arc are better and now present.

As for the rest of the explosives attraction - expensive - compared to 1000 hands - it interrupts everything for a large distance - it's bound to go wrong in bad ways in the Haiti skill-set and theft contexts.

If you are thinking of demolishing unstable building use mechanical methods.

If the buildings are too dangerous or big - set fire to them and stand back.

Explosives are a last resort and generally only economical when labor is expensive.

You need experienced people to know what it is, when to use it, how much to use and if there is better/safer way.

And explosives are contrary art to useful stone in limestone quarrying or its removal.

Above all else - you need to ignore the theorists and Mythbusters mentality always popping up on this topic - but especially if you get to Haiti.

Kyzine

Explosives? Howza bout we dust off the plans for OPERATION PLOWSHARE?

The U.S. Government put a lot of money and thought into this program, and it had the involvment of good ol' U.S. engineers , bygum, so it has to to be good.

Now is the time to strike, er, implement this program, while the Haitians have no functioning government, no way to protest or defend against our largesse, we are from the U.S. Government, we are here to help, we come in peace , dammit!

Done correctly, this could solve a lot of problems, not only in in civil engineering, but also in "social" engineering.

Where's Major Kong? Plan R for Robert. Peace on Earth, purity of essence.

The Other,

#53

GA. Your tagline is especially apt. A really good plumber can make --it flow uphill when the case requires....

But well experts would be expert.

(Did you notice that when the Slightly filtered Sewage went into the mains, that boiling was suddenly AOK for first world citizens)

C-W, many thanks for including my anchorage calculations into the folder! Good style!!!!

Ummm, it's "place" the concrete, not "set" the concrete. Concrete "sets-up" as it hardens. Curing concrete is a method to minimize shrinkage cracking and crazing of the surface as the concrete undergoes the heat of hydration.......there is wet cure, and then there is chemical cure.

Chris, are the wire baskets you are talking about "Gabion" Baskets into which the rip-rap stone is placed? They very good at retaining the stone along a shoreline, but are not cheap by any stretch.....you can line a shoreline without the baskets as a cost saving measure....you only need them when you have water velocities close to the shoreline approaching 8 FPS or higher. Of course the velocity of flowing water will be much greater at mid-stream.

COR-TEN is still a steel and prone to heavy rusting, especially if it is submerged or in contact to water for a period of time. And if you have tidal flows coming up a canal or river, then you have to deal with salinity of the water too, which will promote oxidation even quicker. COR-TEN is not the perfect or end-all solution to steel oxidation problems...the protective coating forms on the surface only and if it's abraded by sand that's suspended in flowing water the coating will not really have much chance to form and protect the remainder of the steel. Don't even count on the paint lasting long as a protective coating, as it will last probably no more than 8 to 10 years where most of it will be gone.

Here's another solution for storm sheltering then... Embed the container on ax. 45 degree angle. by my calculations, half fill the container with rock or gravel, and with the reduced wind cross section and streamlining, that this will be sufficient ballast for wind load..

It makes it even easier to tarp and catch water... and just add a dozen 3" gooseneck pipes for venting. (or simply holes with screens and rain deflectors.) tarps can come down during hurricanes of course.

Also.. put the catchment system into the storm drain.. which can also be made of containers. just enough to keep ground water during rainy season from entering shelter... a new doorway would have to be made in the back end.. and just seal up the existing ones.. also a window/vent can be added in the ends/exstg doors.

while there is less headroom, and maybe cost a bit more. I think it might even be safer during a quake, due to the transmission of forces in a triangular shape to ground.. It also has a greater ability to deflect/survive high velocity projectiles during a hurricane..will protect occupants more maybe? that would have to be tested.

CW.. I can provide 3d model if this proves of interest for FEA?..but it is just a prism above ground.

Chris

Now, THIS I like- need to have a look at how much internal space one would have, and I don't think it would be necessary to half-fill the bottom corner. The slant roof would definitely be better for wthstanding winds. I need a couple of days to catch up with some work, then I will have a look at this idea...

Same here Charlie. At first gklance it would be a good storm and storage shelter solution. Not sure about wanting to live in one though. Will take it in and comment later, life goes on, Ky.

There is definitely something wrong with nomenclature in this world. Invading should be called invading and not defending and the phenomenon has a different name too: brainwashing. So placing concrete must be technical brainwashing? Is engineering with concrete that boring that it needs glorification? Or do need civil engineers better understanding of their language. The word itself is poorly chosen. Concreto, should grow. I can understand that you plant it then. Is the next step to take it to pour that concrete block wall? So what is the concrete? The plastic phase or the hard phase? Everything except a concrete formulation, non-concrete should be more realistic. One name for two different products needs attention or a extra word without "F". And why the rest of the world calls the product "beton". Even in the USA. This is not personal. To be continued.

Hello Geoff,

Thanks for checking my calculations and giving a green light/thumbs up!

I think the container anchorage method that you proposed/described in your last posting has a lot of merit compared to my concrete slab city approach. Better yet, we could employ a hybrid system of using the holddown straps connected to a continuous concrete anchorage block located both sides of the container.

t probably only needs to be 2 feet wide x 2 feet deep x 40 or 44 feet feet long with perhaps a foot of compacted soil backfill over the grade beam. Provide as many of the racheting hold-down straps as needed. Only need to provide U-pin ASTM A615 Grade 60 #5 or #6 rebar of correct embedment length to attach the holddown straps.

The Haitians could find a spare trackhoe or excavate by hand shovel. God knows there's enough able-bodied men and older teeangers around that could provide the necesasary manpower.

Sorry, I don't have no Ksype. Will call you though...

With any luck you'll be able to bend the President's Senior Staff member's ear quite a bit this upcoming Tuesday meeting! I wish you luck.

Capt, Good stuff. Only needs a concrete ( or any other) footing mass at the corners though. Backhoe buried to about 4 feet, depending on the soil mechanics. Embed one upright Hi-Ten hold-down bolt to co-incide with the lock-down castings at each corner of the units. Use a template to get the positioning accurate. Keep it low tech. Have the ballast mass extend upward and become short piers to reduce placement costs and get it above ground moisture. Only needs to be one step. Cheers for now, Stu

Capt'n,

wow math, cool, GA

Good try Chris but the boat dolly will only get someone hurt. Without a team sweeping immediately ahead, large wheels will be necessary.

Picture this, use 5/16" chain ends slip through adjacent lower corner anchor points and u-bolted for safety. Use strap and attach to center of chain + ten - fifteen men pulling—drag container to drop location.

No worry about damage to container and with minor empty weight an large contact area dragging may shine the roadway

For rolling carriage, a PU truck frame with minor buildup may suffice or larger truck. I'd look for a float trailer or hay trailer; a very lite frame or mobile home chassis.

I never saw that one. GA.

Thank you very much Mr. Daly for your help and news.

It's a plain damn shame that USAID is dragging it's feet. Typical of any bureaucratic government agency. 5-6 weeks to review any proposal is really criminal in my mind.

I tell you that IF I had the political power and financial backing, I think that a group of us from the Forum could really make a difference down there in Haiti....most of us are pragmatists and know how to get things done and cut through the bullshit and red tape. .....but first to go is all the agency in-fighting and "who's on first" mentality. SOMEONE has to take the lead and have the correct backing politically.

Tell me, do you know where President Obama actually stands amid all this? Is he even aware that these containers could be made available? Does he have the political brinkmanship to pull all parties together for a little "Tete-a-tete" and finally get the ball rolling efficiently? He really did not touch on the Haitian tragedy in his State of the Union Address this past week; it was quite a disappointment and let down.

Hopefully Former Presidents Clinton and Bush will get something accomplished. I once had the privilege of meeting the Older Pres. George Bush and Mrs. Bush during Desert Shield when they visited the troops in the Saudia desert during Thanksgiving. My Exec and myself got to share a hot Turkey dinner with him and the Mrs. on the hood of my Hummer. Heck, even a pic of my Executive Officer Robby, myself, and several of my Officer staff and senior NCO's under my command with the Bushes made it into an article of Newsweek later on! Pretty kewl stuff! Somewhere around here I still have that magazine. Anyhow, he is a decent man and very much impressed me and my troops. I hope his son is half of what he is made of when the chips are down and it's time to punt.

Get 'er Done!!!!

CaptMoosie,

your comment on President Obama is on point, but did you see his meeting with the Republicans yesterday...good debate and fight...just like the UK parliament do to the UK Prime Minister during question time. I believe President Obama has the fortitude to do this on a regular basis and should maybe happen in the house in a proper orderly fashion (no prepared questions before)

As far as the President knowing about this situation and the use we are all talking about..YES, his office does through both Valerie Jarrett and David Axelrod and his campaign committee.

He is actually going to be in NASHUA NH on Tuesday and Wednesday next week and I have requested a meeting with a member of his senior staff whilst they are here and I will also (hopefully) be attending his town hall meeting at the High school (Nashua North) at 2:00 PM.

Politics and Bureaucracy BS in these agencies is so damaging to any efforts anyone tries to make...unless you have buckets of $$$$$ (read special interests and paid lobbyist...all of whom should be banned for all of Washington DC and each and evry state...Washington has 35,000 registered...reead 66 per elected representative and are funded with more than $3.36 BILLION last 15 months by people, indusrty, Wall St/Banking...we have 1800 here in NH for 430 elected representatives plus whatever washington sends up).

The constant word and presure from the people is the only way to succeed, but it is wearing and thats what some of these people, anyone tries to contact HOPE...YOU GIVE UP AND LET THEM CONTINUE WITH THERE AGENDA. I am sorry to say many do and its not through apathy really just too wearing an effort of constant rejection passing on etc.

God bless you for your duty in Iraq....I was too old to take part even back then.

Geoff Daly