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spacecannon
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Shipping Container Housing

01/16/2010 12:05 PM

I have a civil engineer friend whoose dream it is to design and build shipping container housing for general use and for emergency use, like an instant city for Haiti. Im trying to motivate him to live his dream, so what does everyone think about container housing?

spacecannon

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#27

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/18/2010 3:59 PM

Manufactured containers are certainly better than cardboard boxes

P E Bobimm
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chrisg288
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#31

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/18/2010 4:43 PM

another crazy idea..

inflatable pontoons, articulating u-joints, and a tugboat. (are shipping containers waterproof? they would have to be empty for this to work)

I dunno if these types of pontoons are big enough...?

http://rotonics.com/flotation/super-pontoons.html
http://rotonics.com/flotation/gullwing-series-pontoons.html
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#33
In reply to #31

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/18/2010 4:53 PM

Super-tankers a fairly cheap rent now if you're thinking of "water world"

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CaptMoosie
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#34
In reply to #31

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/18/2010 5:03 PM

Hello chrisq288,

I don't believe that the containers are waterproof.....maybe water resistant at best, so your idea of floating them for transport reasons may not work.

Good idea thinking out of the box though!!!!!

Possibly the easiest way to get the empty containers to Haiti is to commandeer several of the huge container ships on which they were originally shipped on to these shores. Most of these ships return home to China, Korea and Japan empty!!!

I'm sure there's enough empty and abandoned shipping containers sitting in ports all up and down the eastern seaboard and along the Gulf Coast of the USA alone to provide everyone in Haiti a shelter. Then there is Mexico, the Central American states, South American states and all of the Caribbean Island states who most have many of them sitting about!

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#35
In reply to #34

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/18/2010 5:17 PM

Via Google I was able to see aerial photographs of the port at Port-au-Prince.

Many containers can be seen in these photographs.

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chrisg288
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#38
In reply to #34

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/18/2010 5:35 PM

ya, we'd haf to shrink wrap them first..

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#41
In reply to #34

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/19/2010 12:10 AM

Port au Prince, Haiti post quake

Container barges transporting from the Caribbean and East-coast ports maybe cost effective by comparison.

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#84
In reply to #34

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/20/2010 9:50 PM

Capt Moosie-

How do you get them off the ships, once you get them to Haiti? Even if you just throw them over the side and let them float ashore, how do you move them to where they are needed, when most of the roads are destroyed? How many ships/containers do you need to provide housing for 3,000,000 displaced people?
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#90
In reply to #84

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/21/2010 11:17 AM

Hello Cwarner,

I think you missed several of my posts where I said the US Navy and others must first clear out the harbor, erect the toppled cranes and warehouses, then they'd be able to accept the container ships....

Once the containers are on dry land, they can be easily transported on flatbed trailers and other haulers ONLY after the US Army has cleared the roads and erected Bailey Bridges at collapsed bridges and ravines. LOGISTICS!!!!!!!!!

Yes, dropping foodstuffs and other supplies out the side of choppers is very ineffective. Best and fastest way to get the supplies to the people in a hurry is to clear the roads, perform convoy operations OR airdrop pallets. You could either drop supplies by parachute or by the LAPES method. Problem is that you have to keep the natives away from the DZ or else you will have fatalities----people who rush to the parachuted pallets and get crush by it or the hoards of other people.

LAPSES, or Low-Altitude Parachute Extraction System, where palletized loads are pulled out the rear of a C-130 Hercules (or other) cargo plane is probably more feasible on Haiti, but you need a long stretch of land or strip in order to accomplish it safely, both for the air crew and the people of the ground.

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#577
In reply to #84

Re: Container Cities for Haiti

02/07/2010 4:48 PM

Well,

Not many of us would choose to live in a container. But they are preferable to tents or plastic sheeting because they are Hurricane proof, vermin proof, thief proof (up to a point) and 'Quake' proof. Unlike tents they can be multistory and could be walked across during the rainy season avoiding the creation of mud tracks

I guess you could sleep 20 people in each 20ft container (6 triple tier bunks + 2 kids in cots).

3 million people would require 150,000 containers. Less than 2.5 days worth of the USA's imports (25 million TEU (TEU= twenty foot equivalents, one 40ft container = 2 TEU)). Put another way, due to trade imbalances, every week more than this number returned empty to China (at a cost of say $500 per container) for filling and re-export back to USA. So there is no shortage of containers close at hand in USA.

99% of all containers are built in China, whose factories can produce 5 million TEU a year. 150,000 could be built in a fortnight.Most Chinese factories are currently in mothballs, due to the global downturn.

The UN could perhaps spnsor some kind of scrappage scheme to encourage empty containers to be diverted to Haiti in return for a discount on purchasing new replacements in China. Probably less than $500 a container would be enough, $25 per person housed!!!!!

New containers currently cost $2,100 for a 20ft and $3,300 for a 40ft.

Containers stacked 3 high would mean 2 people per sq M. With 2.2M roadways between each row, container cities for 3 million people would require 150 Hectares of leveled ground.

Stairways would need to be built to the various levels. Container cities could be laid out on a grid with drains a services, so in time they could be replaced with conventional buildings.

Delivered by Roll on Roll off ships (requiring no container cranes) it is not unreasonable to assume for each port 1,000 containers a day could be delivered to container cities providing these were close to the port of disacharge

I think this would require a fleet of 250 tractors with 10 x 30 ton cranes to unload and position at the container cities.

All this is do-able
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chrisg288
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#586
In reply to #577

Re: Container Cities for Haiti

02/07/2010 6:01 PM

good stuff!
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#589
In reply to #577

Re: Container Cities for Haiti

02/07/2010 6:13 PM

jonevans7,

thank you for heeding Chris288,

Good comments and contiuing the line of postings on the use of containers.

Some of your comments and ideas have been roughed out in earlier postings but you definitlely bring another perspective on stacking, walk ways etc

Do you have AutoCAD experience/programs?, if so can you do a brief sketch of an idea incorporating what you have said in your posting..showing a typical layout...Levitt Town syle or like NY with streets and avenues. Include anything else relevant...small shops/food market areas etc...remember Haitians are family/grouped.

Geoff Daly NH

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Johnevans7
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#639
In reply to #589

Re: Container Cities for Haiti

02/08/2010 2:47 PM

Google SketchUp is really neat, but I think I will leave the layout and grids to those with more time.

I think they should be mounted on concrete blocks centred on the corner castings 600-700mm off the ground to allow for coooling airflow and to be rodent unfriendly.

One way to lock them together are interconnectors (although they can be fiddly to fit and they are not cheap.

http://www.duraloc.co.uk/
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#648
In reply to #639

Re: Container Cities for Haiti

02/08/2010 3:36 PM

See #346.

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#83
In reply to #31

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/20/2010 9:47 PM

Containers are waterproof- in fact, there is a requirement that they be fitted with a dissolving plug so they will sink when they fall off a ship. Otherwise, they become shipping hazards...
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Johnevans7
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#570
In reply to #83

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 1:47 PM

The dissolving plug is a myth.

It is true Containers are waterproof, the have to be. Just imagine what happens to a million dollar consignment of TV's during a rough journey on the deck of a container ship, when constantly drenched by high seas and storms.

Perhaps, considering the above, you could tell us exactly where to put the dissolving plug?

I have a suggestion, but it's s not printable!

As myths go this one barely makes it past pathetic.
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chrisg288
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#574
In reply to #570

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 2:53 PM

Hi Johnevans7,

Welcome to CR4. If you read the FAQ, you know that the general plan with CR4 is to focus on ideas and issues, and not on the person (no personal insults). This is an engineering discussion group, and to derive maximum benefit for all, it is best to keep it clean and fun. Your clear knowledge and experience will be appreciated more. It has been said by many that one thing that they value here over other discussion groups on the web, is how there seems to be a greater respect overall. We all want respect, don't you?

cheers,

Chris
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#601
In reply to #570

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 9:46 PM

Bit harsh John.

This was/is an idea proposed - it may or may not be still in the mix.

And "spray resistant" and airtight/pressure proof - are different things.

Generally containers sink - quickly or eventually - but some with buoyant cargo - float indefinitely. A number of such have proved useful in tracking currents - but also demonstrating leakage and or the dissolving plug is not a complete answer (therefore some bureaucrat will still likely mandate it)

So yes you are most probably correct "it's a myth" that containers in Haiti would have plugs.

They may just have rust holes, drilled holes, weld blow-through's, bends and tears.

So try to be 'factual and neutral' in your presentation.

Not always possible around here - but real world data wins more than "in idealized circumstances" based derision.

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#36

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/18/2010 5:23 PM

Take a look at this site. These units are being used in our far north at mine sites. If they will survive the arctic winter, they have a good chance of surviving anything.

http://www.habitaflex.com/

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/18/2010 5:32 PM

Yep, that's the sort of thing I was thinking of.

Thanks.

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chrisg288
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#39

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/18/2010 5:46 PM

cool

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/totallyunmemorable/Myhousedouble-stacklivingroomside.jpg

and

http://www.archdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/923617701_pumaretail-prefab6-528x379.jpg
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spacecannon
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#40
In reply to #39

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/18/2010 9:17 PM

Chris, great links and rendering, cool.

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#97
In reply to #39

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 1:24 AM

http://www.gizmag.com/the-cargoshell-ingenious-collapsible-replacement-for-the-standard-shipping-container/13736/

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#98
In reply to #97

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 11:49 AM

I just subscribed to gizmag this week.

Who knows how adaptable these things are as living spaces.

Sounds as if what you might loose in initial costs could be made up against needs for insulation, and paint.

I myself have been meaning to look up tents just to see what forms they have taken as I've imagined Photovoltaic materials possibly built into them.

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#99
In reply to #98

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 1:58 PM

Hello All:

Like I have stated in my previous posts, all you need to do is cut in some windows (and install (Mossie netting) and a few roof holes to accommodate two attic-style exhaust fans powered by a small solar PV panel.

No need to paint the container, it's already been painted! Besides, if the paint wears off the underlying steel is COR-TEN Weathering Steel. If you want, paint them white to cut-down the radiant heat gain a tremendous amount....or install white tents above them!

FYI, I've recently installed two Solar PV-powered attic exhaust fans on the roof of my house, each capable of exhausting approximately 500 SCFM or 1/2 the attic volume per hour (changeover volume), so having two of them is kinda redundant engineering-wise. Solar PV panel is a DYI 45-Watt 12 Vdc module that I built on my kitchen table utilizing 21 solar PC cells that I bought CHEAP on Ebay with all the necessary hardware and sealants. Uses an inline thermostat.....fan is on when temps rise above 80 degrees F and conversely fan shuts off when temps fall below 80 degrees........all built for less than $150 using scrap materials...far better tan paying someone to manufacture one of them that sells typically for over $400....andeach of my fan out performs the manufactured attic exhaust fan: roughly 500 SCFM (mine) versus theirs @ 250 SCFM exhaust volume.

So it's no brainer to install PC powered exhaust fans on these containers.

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#104
In reply to #99

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 4:15 PM

Captn,

you wouldnt happen to have a set of plans for that attic fan, would you?

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#111
In reply to #104

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 10:14 PM

Hello spacecannon,

Yes, as a matter of fact I do....sort of. It's an IntelliCAD drawing that I never did finish. I'm embarrassed to even let someone look at my handiwork as I'm not the best CAD drafter alive.....I can draft with pens, straight edges, drafting machines and an Engineer's Scale the old fashioned way much better!

One day I just went down into my workshop and started cutting sheet metal not following the plans, and waaalaaa, before I knew it I was done with the enclosure. Basically, I just cobbled together the exhaust fan enclosure....really, just a box with a bottom mounted draw tube for the inlet made from old tin cans soldered together. The "exhaust fan" that I used is an A/C blower fan built by Bosch and fits into an old German made Opel Cadet automobile. I picked up a pair of the fans in Ebay for roughly $11 apiece. I had built the solar PV modules months before (last winter). In hindsight I should have taken pics of how it was built. Next project I promised myself that I'd document with digital pics and old B/W 35mm film.

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#113
In reply to #111

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 10:21 PM

You can also buy solar powered exhaust fans of different capacities from your typical marine supply house catering to pleasure boaters, ready-built. Expensive because the manufacturers believe all those with yachts are rolling in cash and insensitive to price/quality issues...
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#115
In reply to #113

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 10:52 PM

Why not buy the Solar PV attic exhaust fans directly from the manufacturer instead of from a Marine supply house, whose Retail cost is already inflated beyond belief?!!!! That doesn't make sense to me at all cwarner 7 11. Instead, buy them for less then wholesale from the source.

I know of one manufacturer that would love to supply his gadgets in an emergency such as this one....probably slightly above his cost. I believe his factory is in Iowa!!!!

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#119
In reply to #115

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 10:58 PM

Right, again, CaptMoosie, but I have never had a need to find a manufacturer for these devices myself. West Marine usually lists the manufacturers (or, at least, the company in the supply chain from which they acquire their devices). I would think the manufacturer would love a broader market for the products, but I wonder if they would be willing to sell small quantities to the general public...
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#118
In reply to #113

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 10:54 PM

Funny as well how often they run aground.

Seems like they see water, and figure its always deep enough.

It's as if everything floating is a row boat to some of these people.

Channel markers? Who cares?

You can be assured of income if all you sell is props for yachts, since day in and day out they will be bent to bits by well dressed sailors with more money than sense.

Real Captains know, run the ship aground, your career is done.

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#124
In reply to #113

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/23/2010 8:52 AM

I have 3 cheap, wind driven fans on my roof.

They make a definite difference to the roof space temperature.
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#132
In reply to #98

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/24/2010 12:59 AM

I've experienced the tent in wet and with high winds, it's not quiet nor comfortable but loud, wet and miserable.

And you are correct to speculate, there is a previous thread the subject of which concerns portable simple erection type shelters for this scenario.

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#49

Clemson University researchers explore ways to solve housing crisis in Haiti

01/19/2010 10:10 AM

http://www.news-medical.net/news/20100119/Clemson-University-researchers-explore-ways-to-solve-housing-crisis-in-Haiti.aspx

Clemson University researchers explore ways to solve housing crisis in Haiti

19. January 2010 05:52

Resources to solve the housing crisis in Haiti may already be on hand.

Some Clemson University researchers have been experimenting with ways to convert shipping containers into emergency housing in the hurricane-prone Caribbean, where a surplus of the sturdy boxes often sits in port yards.

Pernille Christensen, a research associate in the Richard H. Pennell Center for Real Estate and Ph.D. student in planning, design and the built environment; associate professor Doug Hecker; and assistant professor Martha Skinner of Clemson's School of Architecture, collaborated on the SEED Project, working to develop a method to convert the shipping containers into homes.

The original idea was inspired by housing crises that have followed large hurricanes in the Caribbean and United States. However, Hecker said shipping containers would meet those needs in an earthquake zone, too.

"Because of the shipping container's 'unibody' construction they are also very good in seismic zones and exceed structural code in the United States and any country in the world," Hecker said. "They have also been used in other countries as emergency shelters in the case of earthquakes. As the SEED Project develops this will certainly be an area that we incorporate. With a few simple cuts at the port, a storage container can be turned into something that is livable and opens to the site."

Faculty and students sought a way to put displaced people in emergency housing that could be sturdy and safe on a permanent site. Putting families back on their own land quickly is key to the idea. Families displaced by disaster often do not return to their permanent homes for years, if ever, but the Clemson researchers are looking for strategies to implement the SEED Project as quickly as possible, ideally having a modified container on site within three weeks.

"You get people back in their communities and it strengthens those communities," Christensen said. "They work on their home, not a temporary shelter, and then they work with their neighbors to rebuild the neighborhood. It leads to a healthier and safer community. And these are places often in dire need of better housing."

Many Caribbean countries import more containers than they export, which leads to the surplus of containers in those nations.

"The project has a double mission: to address the local need of providing adequate housing for people in need while solving a global problem of recycling - giving purpose to empty containers that would otherwise be discarded," Skinner said.

As part of this research, the group is studying the cycles of natural disasters by looking at the larger picture through mapping and logistics to understand how containers move, available surpluses and ultimately coordinating the cycles of natural disasters with the ebb and flow of container supplies worldwide.

The SEED Project also includes plans for using another surplus item, 55-gallon steel drums, as a way to create a starter garden - from seed - on the roof of the container homes as a way to get food crops started when the ground may be contaminated by stormwater. Water also would be filtered through the drums before being used in a water pod comprised of shower, sink and composting toilet.

A prototype emergency container home is under way on the Clemson campus, and the project has been awarded an Environmental Protection Agency P3 (People, Prosperity and the Planet) grant to make the container part of the 2010 National Sustainable Design Expo on the National Mall in Washington, D.C., in April. The research team plans to build a prototype in the Caribbean in the next year.

Source: Clemson University
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#50
In reply to #49

Re: Clemson University researchers explore ways to solve housing crisis in Haiti

01/19/2010 2:34 PM

Dear CUTiger, I particularly like this post in relation to the thread subject partly because it mentions 55 gallon drums, and the water and food issue.

55 gallon drums have also been used to act as vessels to hold various organic wastes providing mainly methane for cooking and heat.

God knows the dependence of the Haitians on charcoal for cooking fuel has had dramatic adverse effects on the ecology of that nation.

Hence your link post is of value in our discussion as more advanced and comprehensive, since it includes not only issues of shelter, but then water and food utilizing common materials.

Additionally the potential for energy production from wastes utilizing known methods involving 55 gallon drums may well be something we might suggest back from here to those at Clemson involved in this work.

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#52
In reply to #50

Re: Clemson University researchers explore ways to solve housing crisis in Haiti

01/19/2010 3:15 PM

well written and pertinent Russell! GA
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#53
In reply to #52

Re: Clemson University researchers explore ways to solve housing crisis in Haiti

01/19/2010 4:18 PM

Thanks Chris, How'd you like the habita foldup homes?

I'm not surprised that Canadians excel in building fast, since damn it gets cold up there.

I thought your pontoon snake ship design was cool.

That particular seatrain design has long been a favorite of yours hasn't it?

I remember a design similar you put up a couple of years ago I thought would work well on the Great Lakes.

Certainly for the containers, as containers, your latest design might well make moving the excess containers on the Great Lakes empty or even filled, economically feasible.

For fast, and heavy lift transport across water I think the ground effect vehicles such as the Russians have made that Edignan exposed us to in the past, have greater than recognized potential.

As you know some of my issues with containers have to do with methods of moving them.

I was about to suggest to you that you figure how to put wheels on them, but wanted to find out some more about the military dollies apparently designed to do that.

It is interesting that these containers are apparently worth more intact, than they are as scrap metal, otherwise how come the extras aren't just routinely crushed and melted?

As far as this particular thread is concerned, it is one of those where CR4 has come together as what I imagine to be what they call a Think Tank.

I do wish that someone, maybe Captain Moosie, would simply print the whole discussion out, and send it to the appropriate personalities, and institutions.

Truth is that in the event of either war, or natural catastrophe it is no wonder that the military is so often called on to do things that are not really their job.

This is due to the fact that during Military operations, all is an emergency, and speed and reach are paramount if victory is to be achieved.

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#54
In reply to #53

Re: Clemson University researchers explore ways to solve housing crisis in Haiti

01/19/2010 4:40 PM

Hi Russell, thanks again,

as for moving them, you must have missed the link for "Intermodal" that I posted, as the technology already exists.. for decades, for moving sea containers around on land, on special trailers like these, or double stacked on rail cars.

as for your question, I do like those foldup homes.. very cool. smart stuff.

as for the military getting the call... I think it IS their job... to protect the people! and if the 'attack' has already happened, I don't see an issue if they help put things back to 'normal'. Why is Nature any less of an enemy at times than some warlord? certainly the damage inflicted is large.

Chris
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#55
In reply to #54

Re: Clemson University researchers explore ways to solve housing crisis in Haiti

01/19/2010 5:22 PM

Yair, missed that.

As far as whose job is what, I am of the judgement that really the job of the army, is to kill people.

This is why even in this discussion I have said that if you want to get things, like food and medicine to Haiti, just go to the Post Office and mail it.

This is why also in relation to Peace Keeping I have recommended the revival of the US Constabulary Service.

For clearing up the port at Port-au-Prince, I have operated a machine that would be useful in that situation.

(Thanks to bwire for some pictures.)

The machine I operated was called a Lull. Thing about the Lull that recommends it is that it can self level on uneven ground.

Why nature is less of an enemy than some warlord?,well I can't make any rational answer for that, other than the fact, that that's simply not the way people see things.

Machiavelli did write that a struggle with nature, is not enough to create a nation.

Why that is so is frankly depressing, but true.

Hence it is that on April Fools, I always give a speech, for I do recognize that our real common enemy, is nature in all its glory, that cares not a whit for our pettiness.

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#65
In reply to #54

Re: Clemson University researchers explore ways to solve housing crisis in Haiti

01/20/2010 7:22 AM

I think the military usually get the call in an emergency because their systems are geared for action. Government and many aid agencies are more geared for talk (and of course, PR and fund raising).

As far as a sea train of containers is concerned, containers which fall off ships usually sink to just on water level where they stay for a few days before finally sinking. Most reports of boats etc "hitting a whale" are more likely "hit a container", but the evidence then sinks too quickly to be proven.

There must be enormous numbers of containers on the ocean floor by now.

However, not to spoil a good idea, containers could be loaded, then doors etc given a good dose of mastic to seal them. A thick coat of chlorinated rubber to seal miscellaneous leaks and they could be dropped into the sea, linked up and towed just as you suggest.

You would need to get a good long range weather forecast, because I think the train would become uncontrollable in a storm.
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#57
In reply to #53

Re: Clemson University researchers explore ways to solve housing crisis in Haiti

01/19/2010 9:20 PM

Actually, my first 'Train' idea was some 27 years ago... and was a train of special aircraft, which were a combination of helicopter, flying wing, and train... you wills see that only the lead craft has turbofans (3), and economy is gained by the tractor pulling the otherones... which gain their lift by wing and rotor if necessary... the rotors are a pair if counterrotating blades with winglets on the blades. there are openings in the shround surrounding the rotors, and the winglets create air pressure to provide some forward thrust also... (if dampers are open) In the original plan, there were dampers on the bottom too.. but I"m not sure if they are necessary now.

slung under each side is the cargo containers... and they could be either dry cargo, or water.. as this whole system might make a fantastic forest fire fighter... each craft can fly independently.. and fill up with water at a lake.. then join the train.. fly over the fire.. and the downward rotorwash will help distrubute the water maximally, and the fact that a whole train of water is being applied will mean much greater control over the heat in the fly zones.. meaning the fire can be better contained, and therefore run out of fuel faster..

the train connection is of course a difficult part..... maybe magnetic.

I guess my imagination isn't what it used to be... but my rendering skills are getting better.... I hope.

Chris
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#58
In reply to #57

Re: Clemson University researchers explore ways to solve housing crisis in Haiti

01/19/2010 10:21 PM

Chris, interesting, might work with blimps or rigid air ships too. I some how got another GA, have we become a mutually supported cheer squad?

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#63
In reply to #58

Re: Clemson University researchers explore ways to solve housing crisis in Haiti

01/20/2010 12:25 AM

A GA a day keeps the doctor away! (actually I think I got two today)

great thinking about blimps. I will make a render tomorrow.

Chris
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#67

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/20/2010 11:40 AM

The latest Gizmag has an article on shipping containers (sorry couldn't post link), and for Chris a 3-wheeled hybrid car.

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#69
In reply to #67

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/20/2010 1:09 PM

Hybrid

couldn't find the container bit
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#74
In reply to #69

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/20/2010 8:10 PM

When I click on your "hybrid" link, (how did you do that?), at the top of the page are other articles, I saw the container article there.

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#75
In reply to #74

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/20/2010 8:23 PM

Lynn,

In your post, select some text... right click.... you will see an item called "Create Link"... paste your url in there.. click okay. done.

Chris
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#78
In reply to #75

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/20/2010 8:36 PM

Chris,

Its the "paste the url" that isn't working.

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#80
In reply to #78

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/20/2010 8:44 PM

what I do is copy from the Address bar of internet explorer (Ctrl-C or Ctrl-Ins), or right click, and "copy link" from whatever source I'm copying..

then when I am in the editor, and have selected "Create Link".. I use either Ctrl-V or Shift-Insert to paste. I believe that you can also right click and select paste inside the textbox.

If it doesn't paste, then you have a problem with your link. I found that if I'm not accurate in my copying I can accidentally include a carriage return in the text, and that will prevent it from being a valid url. One thing you can do is open notepad, paste the url there.. then re-copy it, making sure you only highlight the exact characters before copying.

chris
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#81
In reply to #74

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/20/2010 8:44 PM

method 1

1st copy the address of the webpage you want to link to & paste it on the page. Highlight it, click on the 5th icon on the editor bar [next to strike through]that looks like a globe with 3 links of chain under. Paste the address in the url blank.

http://www.gizmag.com/seed-project-shipping-container-sustainable-emergency-housing/13902/

method 2

copy the address & highlight any word in your post, click the hyperlink icon, paste the address in the url blank

Seed Project
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#79
In reply to #69

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/20/2010 8:40 PM

Garth,

I think I did it, good container article and further down the page lots of related articles.

thx Chris

http://www.gizmag.com/seed-project-shipping-container-sustainable-emergency-housing/13902/

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#70

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/20/2010 4:50 PM

ISBU is the place that shows ISBU's can and do exceeds most if not all building codes. With the GreenCube Approval report.

Shipping container houses

ISBU shipping container architecture

ISBU House plans and deaign \

ISBU Bob Vila

ContainerBay

Here are some more links for you all. With the first one being the quasi-stander for the USA to get building codes, banks and local governments to see the advantages from cost to environmental. The Bob Vila link shows two 40' containers being used to build a stander house to withstand hurricane storm.

Charles

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#530
In reply to #70

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/06/2010 1:45 AM

I missed that greencube link before, and I missed giving you a GA for this post. so solly

Chris
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#71

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/20/2010 6:34 PM

Hello All,

I agree with the Trans - guy that the use of shipping containers for shelters is a good choice for the long-term, whereas the use of tents is a good choice in the near term. It's easier to air drop the tents into the areas that need them. Not so in the case of shipping containers. Best way to get them to the Island of Haiti is by container ship. There is no other viable alternative!!!! Any other method is unrealistic and very expensive. And once they arrive there at the port, you have to be able to unload them from container ships, so it is imperative to rebuild certain portions of the port ASAP, like the toppled cranes.

I doubt there is but a small handful of containers to be found on the entire island. To thing otherwise is plain foolishness and wishful thinking. You have to think in terms of WORSE CASE SENARIO when it comes to catastrophes like this one....instead of WHAT IF'S AND PIPE DREAMS.....

You're going to need tens of thousands of the containers. There are approximately 3 million people on Haiti, so if even 50% of the population needs long term shelter, that means you need to house 1.5 million souls scattered all over the place, and not just in the Capital city either!

Then another great logistical nightmare is clearing the roads and streets of bodies and rubble. This is where US Army Engineers should be now and not later. You need to free up the streets first so the supplies (tents, medicine, water and other supplies) can get to the indeed populations....later there will be a need for these streets and roads to remain open so that the convoys transporting the containers from the port to their final resting positions.....logistics logistics logistics!!!!! The Army needs to get its Engineering Battalions and it's heavy construction equipment such as M9 ACERS and dozers going at cleaning up the streets and roads in the next few days...then the Army needs to erect Bailey Bridges on the key roads where the bridges have failed or collapsed.

Some General on the ground there better get his rear end in gear and get his logistical trains all sorted out and fully operational within the next few days......the reason why is that people can only live without any clean water for a short period of time (3 to 7 days), then the body's internal organs start to shut down......and people can live without food several times that length of time. This info comes from my wife, a Registered Nurse of 32 years.

Before you know it looting and murder will become all too commonplace if the people do not get the food, water, medical care, temporary shelters and sanitary facilities very very soon. Best that the US Army institutes Martial Law before the sh-t hits the fan as it'll be harder to contain the violence once it begins...

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#72
In reply to #71

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/20/2010 7:56 PM

Unless Haiti of a sudden turns around and applies for statehood status, the mix of politically empowered institutions will likely prevent clear lines of command and control.

Already Chavez of Venezuela is charging that help coming from the US is a disguise for a take over.

What legs such charges have in the region are not fully known to me.

Much of whatever power actually directed towards help for the citizens of Haiti, prior to this event seems to have been in the hands of the UN.

Not much word about the President Preval, other than wonders about where he is, and what his plans are.

The first bit here is just a sketch.

One long term problem has been that the United Nations has long been distrusted as a challenge to national sovereignty. Hence it is hobbled and kept always hobbled and diminished and always is to be a beggar.

When things go wrong, it goes begging to the US that on one hand contributes to its strength, and on the other maintains its beggar status.

-Another sketch.

It would be good all around if an institution, such as the UN actually did have institutions and means of its own that enabled rational and realistic plans, personnel, and equipment to deal with situations such as what are occurring now in Haiti.

If it actually did, well member nations would have call to contribute, and not just complain.

Saw that just today a Hospital Ship had arrived to Haiti.

Was a US Hospital Ship.

Too bad it wasn't a UN Hospital Ship as far as US relations are concerned, since "No good deed goes unpunished."

We could here write a White Paper among ourselves that rationally ordered for the shortterm and the long term what would be best for the people of Haiti.

All day long you can give people free advice, and suggestions.

Typically I find that if people don't pay for something, they don't value it, so we can well expect whatever great thought we might put towards solutions for the sufferings of the Haitians, to be nothing but nice hopes for better than what is, eventually to be nothing more than that.

This has been one of the best of the Think Tank discussions, but who in power in Haiti, that does have a government, and some sort of bank account, is going to buy the idea of bulldozing the town of Port-au-Prince, and rebuilding it with modified shipping containers?

Until we know that, we are just doing what CR4 does best, discussion.

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#73
In reply to #72

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/20/2010 8:08 PM

the only thing probably worse than the US taking Haiti "under its wing", would be for the US to just leave when this is done. Haiti needs continued foreign investment to prosper. This is certainly the most horrific thing to ever happen to Haiti, but it can also be a new beginning. I think the should consider joining the US or Canada or France, or some other free nation. (large french population there eh)

The current Governor General of Canada (represntative of the queen) is of Haitian heritage.

Chris
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#77
In reply to #72

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/20/2010 8:34 PM

GA Trans,

I don't mind giving, I don't like being taken advantage of...

and continual giving produces a welfare nation.

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#76
In reply to #71

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/20/2010 8:29 PM

Captn,

from the the pix I saw there could be a few thousand containers on the island, you are right about the logistics though and the engineers.

Im begining to question some things, like was there no food or water on the island before the quake? There should be something left, yes transporting it is a problem, however they're asking for 100s of millions of MREs, this is billions of dollars, is there nothing there that can be utilized?

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#89

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/21/2010 10:56 AM

Hello spacecannon,

You're absolutely correct in questioning where all the food went on the Island. I would venture to say that most likely more than half of the foodstuffs that were on Haiti are under rubble whereas the remainder has been either looted, eaten and horded...and let us not forget about the organized crime side of this as I'm sure there is some food available for purchase through the Black Market. It's amazing to watch the network news every evening and no one anchor or reporter has even asked that question....and they should!!!!

By the looks of things on newscasts, not much in terms of buildings and warehouses is left standing or is safe enough to enter, so it is not surprising that a majority of the available foodstuffs cannot be recovered anytime soon.

As far as the UN is concerned, I feel they are useless. If they were left in charge all by themselves then we'll see catastrophes that will be unfolding before our eyes of the magnitude we haven't seen in several lifetimes....it'll make the messes in Somalia, Ethiopia and other places in Africa look like a child's play. We're better off if the US Military takes charge as they're the best to cope with any sort of emergency...they have the manpower, money, equipment, and logistical trains to pull it off. No one else does!

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#91
In reply to #89

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/21/2010 12:35 PM

Actually I did see a reporter on NBC I think, report that food was available in the markets for sale, but that many had no money to buy.

They went on to say that one of the reasons so many had no money to buy was that many were somewhat dependent on remittances from relations and friends working in the US, or other places, for a little cash with which to purchase goods.

They explained that usual conduits for that money, such as Western Union had been closed.

It was explained that this was a factor in causing people in dire need to resort to looting.

As far as the situation with the UN, it is not all bad, and it would appear a fair number of those already working there died in this event serving there.

In light of that, I myself am inclined to cut them some slack.

While it is true that few Institutions in the world today have the tools and know how capable of helping people out in an emergency, this ought not really be so often their responsibility. I see the job of the US Armed Forces as really simple. Their job really is to fight to defend the nation. Truly I judge that they ought not be so often asked to perform duties that really are not, and ought not be part of their mission.

I believe I heard that troops that were on their way to Afghanistan were diverted towards Haiti, and wonder what effect that will have on the security issues the US faces?

It has for a good while now been recognized that the UN is in need of Reinvention, and I am a strong supporter of the Points for Reinvention of the UN as authored by Andre` Lewin, Chairman of The French UN association. Mr. Lewin is an experienced career diplomat who has even gone so far as to say that the UN needs an army of its own, among other forthright and common sense points required if the UN is to adapt to the changed power balance subsequent to the end of the Cold War.

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#92
In reply to #91

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/21/2010 1:13 PM

"the UN needs an army of its own"

God help us all... how blind we would be to agree to that!
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#93
In reply to #92

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/21/2010 2:57 PM

I'm all for it, as long as they buy the weapons from me. Any one see the elephant in the room? Elephant? what Elephant?

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#95
In reply to #93

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/21/2010 6:41 PM

Hello ky,

Is that a pic of one of those infamous Aussie baby bunnies? Cute 'lil sucker, even when armed!

Now if ya'll could snare all of those rampaging whabbits down there in Oz, then there would be enough food to feed the Haitians!!! *LOL*

Mmmmm do I smell Whabbitt Stew???

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#96
In reply to #95

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/21/2010 10:31 PM

Hi Skipper

I feel a bit ashamed having made fun of the situation. It must be horrid for all involved. I am quiet busy so I will keep my comments short.

Some of the ideas put forward here have merit and show true compassion but I think they miss the point. Steel containers in such tropical climate regions would be torture with out proper insulation. I live in such a climate and would not go near one, even if forced. You would need to drink water all day and that seems to be as rare as hens teeth in Haiti right now. Light and well ventilated shelters are needed, really, really fast.

Please all, consider what will happen with those near indestructible containers once life goes back to normal, because it will. One could not imagine a more unsuitable dwelling for that climate, unless they would be fitted as luxury units and there is no infra structure to supply sufficient power to do that.

The lighter the better. Shade is as valuable as water. Cool breezes don't go through steel but tarps and tarpaulins, properly spaced, can do a much better job, me thinks.

Lord have mercy on those poor people, Ky.

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#94
In reply to #92

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/21/2010 4:05 PM

Still now Chris, You and others seem right willing to call on the US Armed Forces as if it is somehow better.

I say, taking care of the worlds problems, simply ought not be the job of the US Armed Forces.

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#177
In reply to #94

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/26/2010 12:39 PM

The world has always ignored the real help available insisting upon inventing one of contemporary wisdom instead.

How's that working out?
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#199
In reply to #94

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/27/2010 4:48 AM

"I say, taking care of the worlds problems, simply ought not be the job of the US Armed Forces." Agreed! As mentioned before in this blog, UN Org. is the one charged with these sorts of jobs. Re containers. With the imagination and expertise displayed here in this discussion, I reckon it's definitely the way to go. There are sites and indeed companies already engaged in this endeavour. For a sampling of what's already on offer, go here: www.royalwolf.com.au, and this is just one of many. There are many operating in the UK. I know food is a big problem, but by far the greatest is the one of waste and sewage handling. This has parallels the world over. People talk about the various crisies impacting the planet, by far the biggest is the one of handling the sewage and then general waste. My research has uncovered that only one person in 250 actually knows what happens to the sewage and waste, and then only vaguely. Once it's out of sight it's out of mind. An old uncle of mine said to me when I was just a 'whipper snapper', "son, one day you'll end up in sh-t". His prediction came to be, but not in the way he envisioned. "There's money in sh-t". Cheers, Stu.

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#590
In reply to #89

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 6:49 PM

"As far as the UN is concerned, I feel they are useless. If they were left in charge all by themselves then we'll see catastrophes that will be unfolding before our eyes of the magnitude we haven't seen in several lifetimes....it'll make the messes in Somalia, Ethiopia and other places in Africa look like a child's play. We're better off if the US Military takes charge as they're the best to cope with any sort of emergency...they have the manpower, money, equipment, and logistical trains to pull it off. No one else does."

So perhaps we should be making approaches to the military with this thread?

GA.
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#591
In reply to #590

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 7:40 PM

Not sure that the US military has 'the money' anymore.

Ours doesn't.

Global belt tightening.

As an ideas forum this has no peer that I know of. However, one has to temper the situation with what is 'doable', and that includes financing. There are those on this planet who have amassed a gigantic amount of funds, through whatever circumstances, I vote we tap them to assist with this. Indeed, some of them could just buy Haiti and then do whatever they like there. Not proposing that they do - just that there are enough funds to do it. Leave the Military to do what it does best, and not be compromised by being 'cash-strapped' all the time.

Technically, this thread has proved that there are the resources and minds to get the job done, and in fine style. My research is indicating that the decisions are being attenuated by the lack of funds.

Who do you know who is rich?

Cheers for now,

Stu.

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#603
In reply to #591

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 10:39 PM

Stu,

Here is a very controversial idea:

Some people call them the Wall St, the Banking/Financial people who bough the Global economies nearly to there knees along with poor oversite world wide by various agencies and multitude of paid special interests/lobbyists also playing interfernce...all paid for by the aformentioned parties and blind sided the whole community with smoke, mirrors and spin-doctoring.

Who now are and will be rewarding themselves with $145,000,000,000 (yes $145 Billion not Million) in bonuses and compensation for there greedy, deceiptful, arrogant ways.

As shareholder of B of A I called there New CEO Mr.Tom Moynihan with a suggestion nearly three weeks ago.

Approach all your financial and Wall St associates and recommend the following:

Donate to Presdient Obama's small business jobs funding push (same as he proposed in his recent State of the Union speech by funding this with $30 Billion) with (another) $30 Billion donated, now gives President Obama $60 Billion for small business jobs generation and it will get small businesses back into being able to be the generators of local jobs.

Donate to the Clinton and Bush world Foundations and to the Clinton/Bush Haiti Foundation jusy announced by Presdient Obama an amount of $43 Billion donated .

They still have $72,000,000,000 too distribute, left over, poor things....then the legislators of the world might not crack down so hard going forward with tighter controls.

There avarice is shameful and they cannot or will not justify it....my reply from one of Mr.Moynihan's staff a few days later was "why should we, we have earnt it and we need to retain these people"....the very same ones who bought us to our knees, the best and brightest, give me a break with such an arrogant reply (Moynihan will make $10.6 million plus same in bonuses for 2010 and right to buy X$ as deferred compensation in shares... could be $40+ million for doing what?).

Let them show some humility, humanity and grace by donating this $73 Billion of which the Clinton/Bush Haiti Foundation will be a primary benificiary for the next 10 to 15 years. The global community I am sure would applaud such a gesture through this donation.

With such funding the CR4 communities ideas expounded in depth over these past few weeks would be realized to the fullness of our convictions posted.

Therfore, those who agree with such a gesture should contact your elected officials and copy them on this idea of the Wall St, Banking/Financial people donating $73 Biilion of there avaricously obtained $145 Billion Bonuses/compensation to the above causes..especially Haiti.

This suggestion has already been forwarded to the Whitehoouse when I got this reply from the B of A and several letters to the Washington Post, NY times and Boston Globe and is a question on the B of A AGM agenda about Mr Moynihan's arrogance...let him explain to the gathered shareholders a justified reason for his reply to my suggestion.

Lets all try to shame them into donating this avaricously obtained money..write your elected officials.

We can only try...remeber what JP Morgan said, "he believed tht no chief executives (or coprorate officers) should earn morethan 20 times the wage of the lowest-paid worker. Such executives were liklier to focus on their own wealth than on the health of ther companies".

The reckless behavior of executives earning as much as 275 times the average worker's wage has proved JP Morgan right.

A suggestion of tapping a group of obscenly rich people who can definitely as a group afford to do so NOW.

What does everyone feel as a means to generate the needed funding for the Haitian shelter relief idea for using shipping containers instead of tents (yes very short term only on the tents) and headed by a very strong leadership, maybe Clinton/Bush or General Schwartzkopf?

Does this help Stu, as away to access some rich people?

Geoff Daly NH

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#607
In reply to #603

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 10:57 PM

Geoff, I don't know how to do it. I'd like to know someone so filthy rich. Yes I do see it as obcene, the quantum of the 'golden handshakes'. I agree with JP.

How can we access these poor people and ask them to, in the goodness of their hearts, fund this?

Yes there is some cynicism there. I see good folk, everyday, giving their all to help others, and these schmucks rip out multi-millions, lots of times in failure.

I have a notable CEO in mind when I say this too. Stu

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#629
In reply to #607

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 9:27 AM

Stu

I have contacted Mr.Moynihans office today...some people not in yet at B of A due to the snow they got..southerners not used to more than 3" or 4 "...going to try later and push again.

Boston Globe picked up on my blog to the NY Times and Damien Cave's article on Haiti, left me a message they would call back.

Geoff

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#628
In reply to #603

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 9:27 AM

I vote Geoff a GA...straight forward and pulling no punches!!! Those Wall St. scoundrels were eating at the slop trough long before the "big crash" and were the very same ones that caused it all, all to thanks of the Federal Reserve, Greenspan, Congress, Presidents Clinton and then Bush....and now they want to hand out Billions more to their employees? for doing what? For Being Yes men and in the "good boy track"? 8 million Americans are out of work due to their little games of chance like "Derivatives"! And this mess didn't end at America's shores either...it went worldwide!

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#644
In reply to #628

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 3:21 PM

See #592

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#100

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 2:54 PM

Here is what I think is a more appropriate solution to the housing crisis in Haiti, in that it requires no port facilities, can be implemented utilising local materials and unskilled labor (note that I have posted this on a related forum as well):

After giving some serious thought to the housing issue for Haiti, I have a suggestion- what is normally referred to as "Compressed Earth Block", a technology originating in Colombia in the 1950's to assist in providing housing for indigenous groups of limited means. Most parties currently pursuing this technology are using diesel or gasoline powered hydraulic ram systems to compress the blocks, but the original concept out of Colombia utilised a manually-operated mold with a long, long handle to achieve mechanical advantage and the appropriate compression of the soil. This is called a CINVA ram. Minimal skill is required to determine appropriate soils and proper moisture content. The device is so simple no other special construction skills are needed. Assembling the blocks into walls requires no special motar (using a watery mix of the same soil mixture used for the blocks). No drying, no baking. Quick and easy and something that could be accomplished with local resources. One need not fly in any special materials or equipment, or try to clutter up other relief efforts with this project. Only thing not provided is roofing, and there is likely a lot of scrap material around that could fill the bill, at least on a temporary basis...

These blocks are generally stronger than most concrete blocks one finds in the Third World, and the blocks are mostly waterproof due to high compression (further waterproofing can be achieved with chemical additions, which tends to lessen the advantages of this process, or by applying a conventional stucco finish). Structures of this sort of construction are supposed to be more earthquake resistant than one would expect from more conventional third-world practices.

If I had the resources, I would slap together a couple of these molds, take them to Haiti and start teaching people how to make the molds, and how to build houses with the blocks. This is a solution with long term benefits. Unfortunately, I lack the resources, so anyone else that sees the opportunity here is free to use my idea.
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#101
In reply to #100

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 3:10 PM

That's excellent Charles... a quick search on google turns up a wealth of information which would be directly transferable and sustainable.

my only objection would be that people from Haiti would be nervous about living in ANY structure that can collapse in an earthquake, from now on. (given that concrete structures didn't fare well.)

GA.

Chris
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#102
In reply to #101

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 3:20 PM

The compressed earth block is much more dense than most concrete structures, and much more stable in earthquakes, according to the promoters of this technology. Another issue, of course, is foundation preparation. Most promoters are building on concrete slabs, but I do not think this is necessary for emergency construction. One does need a good footing to support the extra weight of these blocks...
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#105
In reply to #100

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 4:24 PM

CW..., I don't know man...unreinforced masonry?, Im familiar with the concept origin and principles..., If I had to use dirt cheap local materials, no pun intended, i would go with bamboo.

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#107
In reply to #105

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 4:39 PM

spacecannon-

This is a bit different than typical masonry- more like adobe (and there are many adobe structures in the Southwest US that have stood for centuries, including resisting earthquakes). Futhermore, I do not propose this as the ultimate solution, only a solution that is compatible with current conditions in this particular locale.

With regards to bamboo- I am not sure there is sufficient bamboo in Haiti to have a significant impact on the housing shortage, but I could be wrong. I would also be concerned about bamboo housing during the hurricane season, which will be upon them in just a few months.

The key, in my mind, is to find something available locally that the local population can master, once the do-gooders abandon them for the next headline...
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#103

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 3:24 PM

The problem I see with this type of earth block type of structure, like other types of concrete block and masonry construction, is their very high susceptibility to earthquakes. Wood would be a better choice, but since the native Haitians have stripped nearly the entire island of their forests then using this ideal material is a de facto lame duck and not plausible. Steel is still the best because of ductility, something you need in a building structure to resist the lateral forces caused by the earthquake.

Remember, most, if not every, catastrophic earthquake is usually followed by quite a few intense aftershocks.....the initial one here was approximately 7.0, and just the other day there was an aftershock measuring approximately 6.0 or thereabouts. As a structural engineer (but not an earthquake expert), I strongly recommend NOT housing people is such structures as they will crumble down around you ears in the next good sized aftershock. Anyhow, I can bet you a few bucks that most Haitians currently are shell shocked enough not to enter any type of masonry or concrete structure that may be standing (by the grace of God maybe?) or partial standing.....

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#106
In reply to #103

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 4:33 PM

CaptMoosie:

You raise some valid points, but you also have to acknowledge that:

1) Haiti most likely does not have enough steel or containers to house all those in need;

2) Getting sufficient containers into Haiti within a reasonable time frame is a logistics nightmare;

3) There is no lumber readily available in Haiti (except mayby that which can be recovered from failed housing).

It is very unlikely that the international relief effort is going to be maintained until all the hungry have eaten and all the homeless have a roof- chances are, there is going to be another major catastrophe to drive this one off the front page in the near future. When the handouts end, what happens to the Haitians? I am just looking for a way to at least give them a chance of taking hold of their own destiny...
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#109
In reply to #106

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 7:13 PM

It would seem given the greater width of the blocks, the CEB [compressed earth building] would out preform most building materials in the building code challenged environment was, is & will be Haiti.
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#110
In reply to #109

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 8:52 PM

Keeping things simple is hard to do.

One of my sayings is it is not whether or not you always make the right decision, but whether or not you can make one.

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#112
In reply to #110

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 10:15 PM

Tremendous wisdom Russell!! GA..

(and a corollary.. "Keeping things Hard is not simple... as you get older" )

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#123
In reply to #112

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/23/2010 2:07 AM

My hero is Ulysses S. Grant.

He was a failure at business, but a great General, for he made decisions and would not stop. He was a bit to honest for business.

Lincoln and he really gave us the world we have, for what would the world be at all if the slaves had not been freed?

It is a horror to be alive, and not be free, as a man, or woman, and when democracy turns into faceless oligarchy, the betrayals so mount as to wail upon all loving intents, and drive us towards war.

Poor Haiti.

Nobody really even seems interested in taking it over!

In the past two weeks I've not seen the President of Haiti, Preval, on TV once.

Pardon my French, but that's weird.

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#136
In reply to #106

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/24/2010 1:51 PM

Hey cwarner7_11, I just wanted to acknowledge a bit about your compressed earth brick suggestion, which is of course good.

As well I have wondered about whether or not bamboo planting may aid the ecology of Haiti, for the soil often washes away due to deforestation, from what I know.

It is interesting that bamboo, can be used in leu of rebar, though from what I read of this use, you need to split it in half for use in concrete in that application.

For your proposal, do you think splitting it would be necessary?

The only reason I am swayed towards containers for more long term living and working spaces, is the time element, for it is likely to take a good deal of time to make the blocks, and put them together, and the shipping containers would be less dependent on proper foundations.

As to the availability of the containers, you are likely correct that Port-au-Prince, as a port is less likely than many ports to already have a stockpile, for I can't imagine that they have significant imports from China, which is some of the reason stated as contributing to the surplus in the US.

Possibly it shall turn to be feasible that they could come from expected surpluses out of Miami.

As to the issue of getting them off whatever ships may eventually be chartered by whomever, my suggestion has been that something like a barge mounted Link Belt be towed to the port, though this is a bit of an overreach on my part, for it may be more efficient to actually put such a crane on the ship itself.

It does sound as if depth of water at the port, does allow for getting in close.

At this time I fear that dithering, and some search for perfect solutions will inhibit "good enough", and note that the tent city underway is by the waters edge, where is will be vulnerable as the hurricane season there approaches.

I might go so far as to suggest that the containers be placed appropriately in whatever shape they may be away from the vulnerable shoreline, and used by the people in conjunction with the tents as they are as best possible modified with cutting torches.

Who knows, could be eventually Haiti will become the Shipping Container, Home Conversion capital of the world!

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#139
In reply to #136

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/24/2010 5:28 PM

Here's a nice little manual for the use & construction of CEB press

http://www.fastonline.org/CD3WD_40/JF/JF_VE/SMALL/25-612.pdf

You could probably cut up one container & make 10 or more presses from the steel
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#140
In reply to #139

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/24/2010 6:42 PM

Gee Garthh, I read the pdf, and it seemed to recommend shipping containers more, than less, considering.

Noted that the plans are from 1959.

Last I checked some years ago the DOD of the US had about a hundred ships up for sale as scrap, by the way.

I'd gotten interested in the feasibility of using them as hotels, which has been done with the top of the line Queen ships, but not so often with the run of the mill ships.

(I'd gotten interested as some dangerous work I did scrapping out a dredge ship that was eventually sunk as a reef.)

At the time it was explained to me that berthing ships were more ideal than others to live in. For those and others it was recommended that a good way to go was actually to drive pilings into the sand, and nest them bow forward.

Typically even these old ships have workable generators on them meant to provide electrical power independent of the generating system often run off the main propulsion engines.

I think on the ship I worked to scrap, the auxillary generator put out something like 50 thousand kilowatts on 480 volts, 220 feeds. -It's nice to have power.

Think I'll nose around again to see what old ships are available to combine with old discarded shipping containers.

Used to be a good number mothballed in Philadelphia last time I drove by.

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#141
In reply to #140

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/24/2010 7:07 PM

It was the best I could find for a press design

I think containers or old ships would beat the shit out of the tincan & tarp shanty towns that will probably be the norm...

Cw's point is about the availability of material. a 100 or so presses turning out 300+ blocks a day will be a good addition to the mix. The price per dwelling, is gonna be dirt cheap

straw bales & rebar would be good too, no material though there could be some sugar cane remains?

another adobe variant is earthbags, but alas no bags
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#143
In reply to #141

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/24/2010 7:36 PM

The most important aspect of the compressed earth block is the ready availability of material- one need ship nothing into Haiti to make this work. Plus, it is something that can be implemented without a lot of heavy equipment or skilled labor. Not, as others have pointed out, a perfect solution, but one must work with what one has...
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#153
In reply to #141

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/25/2010 3:19 AM

Hi Garthh,

Agree a mix of methods is probably going to be best in Haiti.

Straw and other organic material may not be good. I believe Haiti is in the wet tropics and the rate of decomposition is unbelievable.

We have pure silica sand at Cape Flattery (only about 800km away, so quite close). This doesn't get contaminated with organic matter which blows in because the combination of temperature and humidity simply rots and leaches it out faster than it can build up.

Straw etc is likely to have a similar short lifetime in Haiti.

Pressed earth/clay brick/adobe will be fine if protected by a cement render or similar coating. Even whitewash can do it if renewed often enough.

The more I think about it, the better properly used containers look for a longer term solution.
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#154
In reply to #153

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/25/2010 7:56 AM

I've seen a few Rice straw bale houses

the outside always sprayed with stucco or gunite

most built on stub walls...

I would imagine rainfall totals of more than 100"s [2500mm]per year in haiti

I looked at buying a container that had been converted to a restroom a couple of years ago. Wasn't competitive on price but did have the advantage of being mobile.

I had a quote of $5k on a used unconverted refrigerated [minus heat pump] container a couple of years ago. We were going to utilize it as a labratory [QA] for biodiesel production. Quite comfortable even in the summer heat. Aluminum floor & walls inside. We had plans of using the roof as storage, since it was to be inside a warehouse. The project was mothballed...

In this area I can purchase a used 20 footer [1/2 sized] for less than $3k including delivery...
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#155
In reply to #154

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/25/2010 1:00 PM

Well, guess it is sort of inventory time.

I'll look through my notes and see if I can find a number to at least call at the UN.

Make whatever suggestions I can, or we can, and see what happens.

Thanks to spacecannon for starting an interesting "think tank" sort of thread discussion.

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#142
In reply to #140

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/24/2010 7:32 PM

Transcendian-

The ideal old ship for this application would be a moth-balled aircraft carrier- the old Forestal class carried a crew of 5000 plus 80-some odd aircraft. The old hanger bay would house many more in temporary quarters. When I was in the Navy, we once rode out a hurricane tied to the pier in Subic Bay...Plenty of room for emergency medical facilities, plus a natural landing site for helicopters (more conventional types of aircraft, the ship has to be moving).

I doubt seriously that the US government would consider donating such a ship for emergency use in Haiti.
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Transcendian
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#144
In reply to #142

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/24/2010 8:13 PM

Yeah, I got all wild about mothballed aircraft carriers awhile back, for a multiplicity of reasons. -One was the capacity for desalinization of water.

Nosed around some looking at ships for sale. Looks like DOD is a bit more tight with information than they were last I did my original research.

Still there are a good number of cruise ships relatively cheap, not to mention barge cranes, tankers and assorted ship available.

You'd probably have to have an in with the US Government to get ahold of some of what they've got, though for Preval, if prompted, a call might get through.

Sometimes people don't even know what to ask for.

I am part still writing in hopes Captain Moosie can at least forward some of the salient points come out of our discussion.

In the past on occasion I've gone so far as to print things out and fold, and staple and send paper to elected officials, like the President. Sometimes I've sent unusually large postcards. Anything in an envelope is suspect you know.

Nixon was good about answering his mail.

I did discover that the US had dispatched two high speed ferries that had been bought by the US when their work in Hawaii was shut down over a bueaurcratic snafu. They were sent out of Norfolk Va, where they had ended up in mothballs.

Big ass Catamarans capable of 40 miles an hour.

One of the two is named the Alakai.

They were designed to run around the Hawaiian Islands with 900 people and their cars. I approve of the purchase, at least now, after the fact.

Will be interesting what the lives and service record turns out to be.

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#148
In reply to #140

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/24/2010 10:59 PM

good stuff.
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#108

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/22/2010 6:58 PM

Actually, as far as long term prospects for housing, containers look pretty good.

This is especially promising in light of the folding containers bwire has made us aware of.

Little read down of the discussion there and one poster said it would make sense to sell off the standard shipping containers and replace them with the superior fold down ones.

Of course the new superior materials used for the fold up containers with roll down doors and all, requiring less paint and insulation, well, they are superior for both purposes.

At least Haiti has one little advantage, in that typically the weather there is not bad.

For quick rebuilding the containers have good promise.

The Clemson University designs have promise.

The question is will the government of Haiti, buy what is offered?

P.S. Split bamboo is certified in India as an alternative to rebar.

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#145
In reply to #108

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/24/2010 8:25 PM

The real question is, even if the government of Haiti is willing to buy whatever solution, do they have the financial resources to accomplish this?
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#146
In reply to #145

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/24/2010 8:30 PM

I don't know what they are willing to do, but I tend to think they do not have the financial resources to accomplish it. For this, they will need generous cash donations from the rest of the world.

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#149
In reply to #146

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/24/2010 11:16 PM

Saw that 57 million had been raised from the TV appeal.

At standard rates of 2,000 per unit, I think that works out to 4 million for 200 thousand.

From Miami to Haiti the shipping costs are not known to me. Nor do I know the transport cost that would arise.

Say we figure out what it would cost to move and install inland unimproved, ready for renovation 200 thousand shipping containers?

Obviously there is an immediate alert, since then we see there are only 700 thousand laying around in various locations.

How many tents and shelters, if only in combinations of shipping containers, tents and ships, are needed 3 months, 6 months a year, and then onwards from now in Haiti, or even specifically in Port-au-Prince?

What is the budget?

We started out thinking that there were plenty of available shipping containers, but really it looks like there aren't really.

They could well be a good start.

Combined with old ships, then we may get power and living and working spaces for maybe 30 thousand at a cost of maybe 70 million.

I've already spent 74 million dollars at least and likely ought to double that in consideration of transport and labor, at a minimum.

That's 148 million, and we're just talking about shelter.

What amount will come into Haiti from its industries over the next 6 months?

How much will come in the form of Foreign aid?

Who will spend the money available, and what will it be spent on?

Lets look at New Orleans for clues.

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