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spacecannon
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Shipping Container Housing

01/16/2010 12:05 PM

I have a civil engineer friend whoose dream it is to design and build shipping container housing for general use and for emergency use, like an instant city for Haiti. Im trying to motivate him to live his dream, so what does everyone think about container housing?

spacecannon

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bwire
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 12:56 AM

The argument is to use containers instead of tents making the use of a tarp for catchment questionable.

Any thoughts of how to secure the container from the inside?

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chrisg288
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#617
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 1:24 AM

1. traditional castle door bar (4 hangers welded and wood beam set into them to lock)

2. 1 or 2 rings welded on inside of door at floor level, and then hole drilled through floor. To lock you push a 2foot rod through ring and floor, and into the soil below. (bent on top for handle)

3. weld strong angles (with holes) facing each other at inside seam, and then simply padlock from inside or u-bolt.. etc.

chris
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bwire
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#619
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 1:51 AM

2. 1 or 2 rings welded on inside of door at floor level, and then hole drilled through floor. To lock you push a 2foot rod through ring and floor, and into the soil below. (bent on top for handle)

3. weld strong angles (with holes) facing each other at inside seam, and then simply padlock from inside or u-bolt.. etc.

Good thinking and a clevis pin would likely suffice though a 2' rod may help if you couldn't shut the door fast enough

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Geoff Daly
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#627
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 9:12 AM

bwire,

can you clarify what you mean by "secure the container from the inside"...if you mean tie down so it does not move under wind load ref back to CaptMoosie and my postings and Kyz (use of sunken block, welded car/truck wheel rims etc). Remember containers already have external points around all corners..eight points.

Chris288's idea is good as it also addresses shade and use of the tarps which will be left over as time goes on. So double duty for water catching as well.

Geoff Daly NH

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bwire
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#641
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 3:06 PM

To secure from inside; prevent unwanted intrusion from outside upon the occupant.

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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 1:08 AM

That's a great rendering. In Ketchikan, where I live, a good fraction of houses, like mine, use rain catchment. The roof gutters simply drain to a tank of a few thousand gallons. I have not addressed what happens when bald eagles jettison cargo on the roof, but haven't gotten sick from anything so far....

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#618
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 1:45 AM

No different than drinking from a mountain creek

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#620
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 2:01 AM

Exactly! I used to drink from mountain watercourses all the time, with no ill effects, but then I learned of Giardia lamblia. How prevalent this is, and where, I don't know. But, as they say, does a bear sh-t in the woods? Yeah, and sometimes into the creek.

And then we have environmental restrictions against dumping marine toilets into the ocean. Well, where do the whales, walruses, otters, and gazillions of fish and birds take a dump? And we're worried about a few humanoids? Better put diapers on them whales, bro!

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bwire
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#638
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 2:42 PM

You may find the treatment species on your next hike.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giardia_lamblia

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#674
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 8:33 PM

I have never encountered a case where someone has become ill from water contaminated with guano, and we use rain catchment a lot here (filtered and treated, of course). I suspect that the digestive tracts and body temperatures are sufficiently different between the species that avian bacteria would find human digestive systems too alien to survive. Most of the digestive problems we are exposed to are hosted by other mammals...
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#621
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 3:12 AM

NO! Chris, NO! - you're thinking western suburbia detached - This Mine! Ugg! - housing

Think - family based cooperative society approach.

Yeah, like Communists Chris!

() ()

(read my posts Luke - clear all will become)

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Johnevans7
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#637
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 2:25 PM

Looks neat,

Problem it's a sail and that's what it will do.

If you want a sun roof maybe use something local like bamboo.

There plenty of bamboo in Haiti and already Ore is running a bamboo project in Haiti http://www.oreworld.org/bamboo.htm
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chrisg288
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#652
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 4:10 PM

Agreed that its a sail.. but it isn't 'the roof over your head'. If a hurricane is imminent, you simply take it down by untieing the corners. put it up again later. or leave it up in hopes of catching some precious rainwater. If tents, tarps, and sheet metal are all that you have for your home, in the middle of a squalorous sh-tcamp, then I can see some concerns.

GA on the bamboo link! Every bit of building material will help.

Chris
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#642
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 3:16 PM

I think this is the sort of thing was called a Fly tent, by maybe Stuwright.

Somebody John? said it would turn into a sail, though I don't think that is an insurmountable problem, and could be solved easily with a tie point at the roof edge.

Maybe have water run to a corner instead of out the center, that way you don't necessarily need a hole in the center of the tarp either.

Sure enough tarps do wear out, and could be torn apart in high wind events, but they may well do the job for long enough periods before they have to be replaced, or a more sturdy solution is found.

On down the road, we might take door cuts and fashion them so as to direct water to a catch barrel.

Course then you're out some door material.

I we do get to the point where there is a modification facility at the port, it is not out of the question that some containers could be cut apart to make parts for stuff like water collection systems, and stake downs.

Might want to sandwich two pieces together anyway when making a door, as often it appears most designs utilize doors and window put into the sides.

Sometimes you simply have to try something out, and see if it will work in the real world too.

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#646
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 3:34 PM

Both seem good ideas though possibly a combination of each is greater.

I think getting ready for big wind and rain is most urgent and that a brim if you will of bamboo around the edges with a cut-out for spillage to a catchment is simple and effective for the mean time.

Afterwards a few sturdy protrusions from the tops could provide framework for a simple roll out type awning set-up which could be retracted from the ground level.

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#649
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 3:41 PM

Trans,

No need to worry about shade/catchment 'sails in a breeze. Just take 'em down temporarily, or design the fixings so that the break-away to a single post and then make like a palm tree. Why do 'structurally compromised' palms survive in storms?

Cheers,

stu

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Johnevans7
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#673
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 8:23 PM

I do like this thread. Some excellent ideas and LATERAL thinking.

However you are trying to make the tilt both water catcher and a sun shade.

Stuey, someone told me that Palms survive in the wind by bending. Although the ones in my Garden are more concerned about surving our coldest winter for decades. Something their Haitian cousins needn't worry about.

From experience I have found tilts stretch (belly) and in the tropics you don't want pools of water where mosquitos can lay their eggs.

I would have thought in Haiti right now, anything not bolted down or locked away would be stolen.
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Stueywright
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#693
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 2:28 AM

Haiti already is the Mosquito Coast Mk 2. Stu

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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 12:03 AM
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 8:22 AM

Hi Geoff,

That was me in a previous blog entry this past Sunday AM urging us to remain on track herein regarding the shipping containers being utilized as semi-permanent housing/shelters, and to start a new blog Re Establishment of new water, wastewater, and solid waste infrastructure in Haiti.

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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 5:22 PM

There are 200,000 one way trip flexi-tanks thrown away each year (majority are 24,000 litre capacity).

They are designed to fit 20ft containers.

Whilst not many would be suitable for potable water storage they would be perfect for grey water.

24,000 ltr flexi
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Geoff Daly
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#583
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 5:31 PM

Johnevans7,

who do you know are the biggest producers and any idea of cost...are they used for mainly chemicals or what?

General industry practice has been to use the std IBC or LBC tank setup in an open container frame....never seen one in a regular container ....what is the DOT # or TUV # for liquids classification.

Geoff Daly NH

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Johnevans7
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#584
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 5:40 PM

Biggest suppliers (with over 50% of Market) are Trans Ocean Distribution of Houston Texas (with offices worl-wide).

Flexi-s are one way trip (throw away) so I am not sure how concerned TOD are in flexi-s after they have been used.

This is what a 24,000 litre flexi-Tank looks like loaded in a container:

John
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#588
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 6:06 PM

you are a gold mine... er.. I mean your knowledge seems extensive.

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#523
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/05/2010 10:43 PM

Hey, CaptMoosie! Where's the USS Ranger, CV-61??? She's one of the Forestall Class also! Last I heard, she was mothballed, but may have been scrapped by now...
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/05/2010 11:55 PM

Moosie, yes. I think you're right, there. As good as it sound having the Us Navy supply fresh water, The Us Navy needs to be ready to protect the US, and can't compromise that situation. Re various disease bugs; I'm sorta with the thinking along the lines of autonomous water collection/treatment/supply.(same as some other in the thread). We've had here various problems with contamination of the water reservoirs, and reticulation, in the major cities.

Seems to me it'll always be a worry. My advocacy is to have dwelling autonomous water systems. They have been working well since the dawn of time.

As and aside, I also see site-specific autonomous power generation in the future, too.

Not just PV or wind, but mini nuclear units the size of a washing machine. When it's spent , the whole unit is swapped out by an authority. Most folks don't know how much the losses are in transmission reticulation.

Everyone knows I'm a KISS advocate.

Cheers, Stu

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#554
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 2:25 AM

As a temporary assist to the water problem, giardia etc can be removed by a sand filter.

A container can be sealed (silicone or even possibly something cheaper like butyl mastic - not sure if that is suitable for potable use), filled with sand and water added at the top.

Usable water can be removed from the bottom, although it will have some salt (if sand is unwashed from the beach, but shouldn't be excessive), perhaps initially a little very fine material (from the ultra fines in the unwashed sand), but should be safe to drink.

When the sand becomes too heavily loaded so the filtration rate slows too much, open the doors, clear the sand out, reseal, refill and start again.

Only intended as a short term augmentation.

When decent water supplies have been restored, the container can be cleaned out and used for housing or public amenities.
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#558
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 3:40 AM

Freshwater can be had on most beaches, by driving a SS 'spear' down thro' the water table, sometimes only a few yards from the waterline. These 'spears' are a hollow tube with typically a 12micron SS mesh covering the inlet ports. The 'camping' type ones have a handpump on them to raise the water. Mostly only a couple of metres down.

The devices here have screw flutes just like miniature screw piles. Stu

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#571
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 2:31 PM

Are you speaking of Saltwater beaches? cool idea anyway.
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#564
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 9:43 AM

I disagree with your statement regarding the use of sand filter to remove Giardia.

In regard to the various types of sand filtration available, only Slow Sand Water Filtration has been shown to be effective in filtering out Giardia Lambia and Crypto. Also, you must have precisely graded sand and stone aggregate of the correct depths and layered sizes and graduations for the filter to be effective, not to mention the presence of a healthy and vibrant bio-mass (hydogeal or Schmutzdecke) atop the upper layer of sand in the supernatant. Application flow-rates of the raw water and active participation and monitoring the treatment process by trained operators will provide the effective degree of removals. Also, the raw water source has to be fairly clean to begin with.

I've been involved in the design as well the construction of no less than 5 Slow Sand Water Filtration Plants during my professional career working for several consulting engineering firms, all in upstate New York. In fact, the last one I designed, although small and meant for a small village north of Utica NY, was state of the art at the time of it's conception, NYS Health Dept. Permitting, and later construction. I was also a member of the now defunct American Slow Sand Association (ASSA). Operational phase of Pilot plant testing is EXTREMELY ESSENTIAL in order to validate the application of this filtration system in regard to the insitu raw water quality.

Go with proven KISS water treatment systems that the village idiot can run....Slow Sand Filtration isn't one of them unless you have all your ducks in a row and a reliable smart water treatment operator who is able to think out of the box!

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#568
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 12:39 PM

CaptMoosie-

Good to have some professional input on water issues. I would like to add that one needs less than 5 micron filtration for cryptosporidium, and that chlorine is ineffective against the crypto spores- the only thing I know of that works for the spores is ozone. Fortunately, crypto and giardia are not transmitted by air, but through contamination with fecal matter. Which is why I like to keep rain catchment facilities on top of hills (plus, gravity feed). Most of the airborne stuff can be removed by a sand filter for emergency use. The major issue with rainwater in metropolitan areas is contamination with pollutants derived from internal combustion engine exhaust...
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#569
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 1:39 PM

Hello C-Warner et All,

Yes, you are correct about Giardia and Crypto not being airborne transported. I mainly pointing out that other diseases can be...and let's not forget about bird droppings onto the rainfall collecting tarps. You must take into account that factor and provide disinfection and having a chlorine residual is better than having none at all.

Unfortunately, all it'll take to contaminate any water source is the presence of contaminated "wet" hands from a person or persons affected by "Beaver Fever" and/or Crypto touching any of the collected water.

Agreed about chlorine being ineffective against crypto spores. You'll need Slow Sand Water Filtration (see my previous blog comment this date), membrane Filtration, or RO to get below the 5 micron level, plus the Ozone and possibly UV. I don't see having any indigenous personnel on Haiti capable of providing the expertise of a trained and licensed water treatment operator in the near term future......that'll have to come later when centralized water treatment plant(s) are built, but not in makeshift DIY water collection systems spread out hill and dale of the country.

I don't really know if either crypto of Giardia has ever been encountered in Haiti or the Dominican Republic.....verified and medically recorded that is. If not, maybe we're being too "what if?" cautious and should stay with the basics in the time being until the crisis has been resolved and centralized infrastructure has been built/restored? I have doubts that much infrastructure even existed in the first place unless it was located in the "influential" areas or pockets within Haiti.

So, IMHO, just to safeguard the temporary DIY rainfall collection systems all we need to do is provide some sort of chlorination. It's fairly easy to teach someone with no reading skills whatsoever (but they must possess a good thought process and common sense) how to disinfect the water: "X" scoops of HTH (or other brand, including generic brands) granules get placed inside 1 FULL "Y" gallon capacity rubber bladder to provide "Z" free chlorine residual in order to provide a safe drinking water. It's that simple and we should stick with it since chlorination has been around for quite some time now and is well understood and has a great track record + it is very effective against most water borne pathogens and parasites. IF more exotic forms of pathogens are encountered later on, have strategies will have to be evaluated and revised, and that includes the baddies Cryptosporidium and Giardia Lambia. Someone withing this blog may have contacts withthe World Health Organization or the American Red Cross to ascertain is these two pathogens have ever been encountered on the island, and more specifically in Haiti??????? Someone has to verify this; by this I mean someone has to do the basic Grunt leg work.

Another Issue:

I think all this talk about water, wastewater and solid waste is very valid and needed, but by God shouldn't it be included in a new blog all by itself. After all, this blog originated about providing steel shipping containers to the Haitians for more permanent shelter before the monsoons and hurricane seasons begin?

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#573
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 2:46 PM

Actually I am for including what I have been calling Micro Infrastructure Systems into the standard Container Housing model since a functioning home ought to have a bathroom, and a kitchen, both which call for water supplied somehow.

I was attracted to the reports of the Clemson U designs specifically because they were reported to include designs using 55 gallon drums that supplied clean water, and food grown in the drums.

I added what I knew of bio gas generation systems in hopes of completing the systems to make them more independent, in consideration of reports, saying Haiti was real short on infrastructure.

Many of these things have already been covered in the Sustainable Engineering Blog.

I mean I at least so far get to live in a house with a semi functional bathroom, some gas heat, and some electricity.

A Shipping Container House design that has in it such things shall be a home.

I had a nice talk with Mr. Martin who said that the Haitians are an awful lot smarter than you might expect, and shown how to do something once, go on to do it right well.

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#597
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 9:13 PM

This blog originated to postulate the possibility of used/new shipping containers becoming suitable housing for people. No mention of Haiti.

Stu

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#599
In reply to #597

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 9:17 PM

Perhaps it is time to start a new blog on suitable housing for the people of Haiti.

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#602
In reply to #599

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 10:14 PM

No, it is not.

If it will work for Haiti, it will work for others.

Tired of it?

The work is not finished.

The work will not be finished until Haiti has Shipping Container Housing.

We have thought about it, and there simply is no better solution that will work faster, for longer.

If you really really do have some solution to the needs of Haiti that will beat Shipping Containers, I'd like to know what that is.

I don't think that you or anyone else can find a better solution that will work both fast, and for long.

There is not a construction technique I know of capable of satisfying the requirements short term, and with long term viability.

Tents won't do it.

Stick built homes won't do it.

Concrete, won't do it.

Holes in the ground won't do it.

When we determined that Shipping Container Housing for Haiti was the best option, we determined that Shipping Container Housing was the best option because we are aware of all the other options.

I like ships. They aren't going to work out.

Digging holes in the ground, won't work out.

Buying house trailers and old Fema trailers won't do it.

There simply is not a better solution to the problem.

Starting another blog will not change that.

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#604
In reply to #602

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 10:44 PM

Transcendian,

Shipping containers may be an ideal solution for housing the Haitian people. I am not arguing that. In fact, I am becoming convinced after reading this thread that it may be a viable solution. At the same time, I believe this thread has become a little too long and a little too diverse to appeal to those who might help in any particular aspect of the problem.

Perhaps it would be advantageous to consider elements of the Haitian situation, each in a separate thread.

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#609
In reply to #604

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 11:08 PM

Cwarner7 11

Is heading up an effort to come up with a much condensed version dealing with the technical aspects of down n dirty containers as housing for use in various emergency situations.

We are working with CR4's administration who keep this forum up & running for Global Spec who generously pay the bills.
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#610
In reply to #604

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 11:26 PM

We have long recognized that fact, and have been working on it.

I think well of my summation Garthh posted for me and Ky reformatted 414, and 424, but CW and Chrisg, and Garthh and Geoff, are working on another foundation for a workable White Paper.

This is the first time I know of that CR4 members, and contributors have worked so hard and taken risks with their memberships in this fun forum for us, to do anything outside of helping our membership.

Garthh and I and many others worked on Sustainable Engineering, which has covered many foundational aspects of the tech needed to make the Shipping Container Housing better than emergency shelter.

Garthh and I were forced to resign from APIX, and Agro Biogenics due to issues with the leadership.

Constantly change the names of things, and going in different directions, and saying this is mine, and I'm in charge, and all that sort of stuff, bogs down the focus of the work.

Everything we need to know to make this particular project work is either on this thread or in work and contributions already done and made on this forum, or offered for sale on Globalspec.

I simply want to get the work done, best we can, in the time available, even if hanging around in one place becomes uncomfortable from time to time.

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#611
In reply to #610

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 11:55 PM

I am sure you have the best of intentions. I wish you all the best in your current endeavours.

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#613
In reply to #610

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 12:09 AM

I would say that we weren't forced to resign from Apix, so much as resigned with extreme prejudice , Creative differences could also be an acurate discription of the break up.
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#634
In reply to #613

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 12:09 PM

Yair, something like that.

I was using the word forced as "I was forced to face the facts."

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#626
In reply to #602

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 9:11 AM

I for one agree with Trans. Shipping containers is the way to go. They're strong, nearly weather tight, cheap and there's many of them in ports of call along the eastern and southern seaboards of the USA.

That's why I first proposed using them on January 15th a few days after the initial quake in a different blog regarding inadequate building codes in Haiti. A few days later space_cannon started this blog.

Have a great sunny day!

signed,

CaptMoosie, LPE

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#635
In reply to #602

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 1:26 PM

Really? Putting people to work building houses isn't an option?

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#636
In reply to #635

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 2:24 PM

How long does it take to build a house? What resources are there for traditional building practices? How many homes and businesses, markets and stores can be built using traditional materials and traditional practices in three to six months, or even over 3 years?

I read in a NYTimes report that corragated steel and some wood are being sent.

What sorts of shelter structures do you imagine will be erected using those materials?

Sure enough, Shipping Container Housing is not the only option, it is simply the best option we know of considering resources, infrastructure, labor, time, and the magnitude of the needs.

I've spent a good deal of my working life building homes.

They take a right good amount of time to build.

Land has to be cleared, foundations poured, framing done, wiring done, sheetrock installed and finished, oh, yeah I left out HVAC and plumbing.

Think of compressors, nailguns, electric powered saws, hammers nails, bolts, concrete delivery trucks, backhoes, ditchwitches, not to mention banking and finance...

The Shipping Containers require less Foundation, which right off puts them ahead of other ways to make a home. They are strong, they are relatively cheap. They are available.

The methods for modifying them are understood, and it is a mature industry.

They meet or exceed codes.

They are even up to be replaced by newer folding containers which will put more of them on the market.

They even represent an industry on down the road as something Haitians may eventually be able to export.

That also recommends them.

Our friend CW, recommends Compressed Earth Block, and I am all for that as well, but even he has focused on the Shipping Containers as we have moved along in this discussion.

In consideration of all of the factors, I myself, and many of us have simply come to the conclusion that shipping containers represent the best option for the needs at hand.

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#650
In reply to #636

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 3:56 PM

Sorry, you have not convinced me. The solution must go to fix the problem. Not the symptom. Lack of housing is merely a symptom.

Anything I add to this post will be construed as negative and confrontational, sorry. Just wanted to say that there may be a better way to deploy scarce resources.

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#651
In reply to #650

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 4:05 PM

Dear Yusef1,

The plan here on CR4 is to critique ideas, and not people. Therefore, anything you add to this post will be critiqued fairly. If there are better ways, I am certain there are an abundance of people here who are honest and insightful enough to admit their errors, if any, and embrace the better way. People are people, but this site represents one of the few places with a spirit of continuous improvement. Please don't hold back, if you have something to offer. I put my 'craziness' out there regularly for everyone to see. (or don't you think containers with pontoons is crazy enough?)

Having read a few of your posts, perceive you to be an intelligent and well focused mind... more so than me, so Speak!

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#656
In reply to #651

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 4:27 PM

containers on pontoons We have a guy here wanted a houseboat and couldn't afford the usual thing. Asked me is this would work.

"If I get some styrofoam like they have to make jetty pontoons and put a 40' container on it will that work?"

I told him "Yes". Things to work out were CG and metacentre. Did that and it worked a treat. Windows and all. Brand new 40' houseboat for less than ten grand. How good is that?

Cheers,

stu

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#658
In reply to #656

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 4:55 PM

excellent.. would love to see some pictures of that. wish I had one....hmmm... btw, what is the metacentre?

Chris
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#660
In reply to #658

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 5:04 PM

That point, about which a vessel gyrates. stu.

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#701
In reply to #658

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 11:04 AM

Floatainer.com from in NZ are doing something similar in the Pacific Islands.

I do have a picture somewhere of Chinese 'container house' floating on a lake/river. I think it's available 'flat pac' for export, don't think it's sea going but can't put my finger on it right now.
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#702
In reply to #701

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 11:12 AM

There's a new favourite site... thank you so much for that!!
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#710
In reply to #702

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 12:32 PM

Fish house comes to mind...

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#653
In reply to #650

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 4:10 PM

You go mon!

Go fix dat govt, go fix dat earth foundation make it stay put. We gonna fix the symptom then develop the infrastructure and protocols necessary to turn di country around.

So get busy fix dat govt so we all on same team mon!
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#654
In reply to #653

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 4:17 PM

You probably meant that as a joke, but unfortunately, you may well be right on.

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#659
In reply to #653

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 5:00 PM

Who said anything about the government being the root cause?? I thought that earthquakes was the problem, plus a scarcity of building materials. Your post doesn't really make sense to me... I like my sarcasm to be easier to undersand.

chris
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#666
In reply to #659

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 6:25 PM

Actually there is more than one government involved, and it is true that there are laws observed by all that do serve to keep poor people poor.

It is true that there was very little in the way of effective building codes in Haiti prior to the earthquake, and properly built buildings would have prevented such a terrific loss of life, and destruction of property.

As the situation is it is reported that 70 to 80 percent of Haiti's economy is agricultural, but I do not know of much of that as desirable or profitable as an export crop.

Now if they could legally grow pot, and export that to the US, or some other countries, they might get some money with which to build better homes and businesses.

But of course this sort of thinking is right terrible as it is extremely important that the drug war be maintained. It is important that the drug war be maintained in the US partly so that the prisons are kept filled, and so that the prison industrial complex continues to grow.

If the common working people of Haiti, who mostly do the best they can could legally grow and export pot, well then they might be able to build better homes out their own pockets, but that is prevented by international agreements, so they will be long dependent on charitable contributions, designed specifically to make them major losers suffering the effects of a war gone on, and expected to go on pretty much forever.
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#667
In reply to #666

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 6:48 PM

agreed. ga

actually hemp and bamboo structures probably come the closest to being able to withstand earthquakes for affordable green housing, incorporating flexibility, strength, and potentially, natural beauty.

Chris
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#669
In reply to #667

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 7:08 PM

Don't know what good it does really to look to bamboo, as part of the reason for planting bamboo is so that its roots take hold and hold some ground in place in Haiti.

It does grow quickly, and is strong, and incredible feats of engineering have been done with it when you look at the scaffolding done with it for major builds in places like Hong Kong.

It does have some disadvantages in that it does represent an invasive sort of plant, and will choke off other plants.

My brother has a bamboo forest in his backyard, and nothing but bamboo will grow there.

Smashed up and turned into flooring it is alright, and I've worked with it.

If it gets damp in that form, it grows mold very quickly.

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#685
In reply to #669

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 9:59 PM

Don't know what good it does really to look to bamboo

Reason enough could be that it's there...

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#687
In reply to #685

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 10:13 PM

As a mater of fact, it changes/simplifies several things in my concept. Adds things the locals can do for themselves - whole thing is now less dependent on outside supply and expertise.

good data.

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#690
In reply to #685

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 11:35 PM

So is dirt.

They cut down all the trees, and the water is despoiled, and the bamboo is part there growing to hold the dirt in place, so that the next big storm doesn't cause massive mudslides.

They don't have trees, cause they cut them down. They can't buy a lot of lumber, cause they don't have much money.

I don't have a thing in the house I know of that came from Haiti.

The bamboo is there, and there is dirt there.

The bamboo can be used like rebar in compressed earth block, and could be woven into a foundation that floated and could handle vibrations and slide.

Not against it at all.

Wasn't and am not against tents either.

Maybe next year we ought to buy Christmas trees made from Haitian Bamboo?

I'm only for using shipping containers houses because they will work fast and long for the Haitians, and represent an eventual export business after they get good at making them.

Not likely they will be able to export homes made of bamboo.

Actually a friend of mine reported he had a friend that bought a home in Haiti, but can't go there, since one industry there has been kidnapping for ransom.

More than one egg cracked in the basket.

Looking for the unbroken and unbreakable things to put together.

Interesting that when others like Mr. Martin went to Haiti and built a building out of shipping containers, they built schools.

Architecture has strong influence on how people live. I live where I live partly cause I can't bear ugliness.

One tent by itself can look alright, but typically tent cities even look like hell.

Chrisg has made some nice looking condos based on the containers.

Stuff growing all over them.

Stuff would probably sprout out shipping containers cladded in compressed earth block to make them bullet proof too.

Can't do but so much.

Many residents who survived Katrina were shipped to Houston or anywhere they could go.

Haitians are nearly less welcome than Cubans in the US.

How is it that these paradises of sun and surf get so poor?

I've been poor in both Manhattan and Fort Lauderdale.

Squalor and crime and ignorance depress me to the point that blindness might be a blessing.

Course I'm having some problems seeing, and will miss being able to see...

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#691
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 11:53 PM

Head up Trans. The Cavalry is just over that ridge there Mate. You can't see them but if you listen carefully you will be able to hear the hoofs.

Not long now my friend, Ky.

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#707
In reply to #690

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 12:18 PM

Did it not occur to you the application sited for bamboo? It was a simple brim, kerf along the the top edge of a container to channel water runoff into a catchment. I remember using split bamboo for rain gutter material long ago and far away.

What's the matter something fly up your nose

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#713
In reply to #707

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 12:58 PM

Well, maybe.

I think I did go on to say that I wasn't against bamboo at all really.

I wasn't fully answering you, for I did have in mind some of John's expanded posits concerning bamboo.

While we're here, I have been thinking about about what else might be around to solve the two problems associated with the heat, and the water, and wind issues that go along with the roof of the container.

In light of the fact that we have been told that it is good to have a tarp, or "fly tent" air separation above the roof, and because typically by the beaches the wind does tend to blown, I am wondering if there are freight pallets that could be put on the roof to provide that air separation, and then provide a base as well for the tarp to be attached to?

I recognize this is not a particularly elegant solution, and would call for tie downs, to eyebolts on the sides, but it might serve the purpose of keeping the container a bit cooler, and a way to keep the tarp in place so it doesn't flap in the wind so much as to be torn apart before its time.

The post did not quite have the right tone, and would have been a good one for me to have thrown an emoticon or two in, I'd say, surely.

I'm picking my nose right now.

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#698
In reply to #669

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 10:41 AM

Amongst its many uses bamboo is used to make container flooring (it pretty much is indistinguishable from ordinary plywood in appearance and performance)

The bamboo comes from managed plantations, which is what Haiti now has.

The 'laying up' (weaving) of bamboo is pretty labour intensive and possibly an industry that might offer employment to Haitians in the future.

As such bamboo is doing it's bit to protect endangered tropical and temperate forests.
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#668
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 6:52 PM

I promised.

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#655
In reply to #650

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 4:19 PM

No it won't. Just say what's on your mind.

If I think you're a nutcase I'll tell you.

There may be something we're all missing.

Agree wholeheartedly about fixing the problem, just don't know who to contact to turn off the quakes. Any building system we come up with will only be quake resistant, not quake proof. Cheers

stu

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#657
In reply to #655

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 4:28 PM

"Any building system we come up with will only be quake resistant, not quake proof."

...now what kind of attitude is that for an engineer? here is a building system that is quakeproof. What? okay, its imaginary...fine.. humf...

I can think of at least 3 different quake proof methods... I'm just saving em for myself.

this is a test.
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#661
In reply to #657

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 5:05 PM

this is a test.

I can think of another two. This asks for a different thread because quakes will keep coming and if we have not come up with some cheap, practical, realistic solution the next time it happens, we have failed.

What this thread shows is that some really care and are trying to unite and pull at the same rope. I'll pull as hard as I can at my end but have to keep solutions to myself, for the time being.

Testing, testing, testing..........

"Are we there yet?" usually comes from the back seats, the driver should know his way and has to guaranty a safe journey for all involved. Going off road (different approaches) is not for the faint hearted and the tour will not end over night.

Next time some catastrophe like this happens we need not repeat this thread but are hopefully be in a position to offer something to the people organizing in the field or at desks were tough decisions have to be made. My hopes are up and I think we are better off than we were when the OP started this thread.

Talk to you soon, Ky.

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#662
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 5:14 PM

Ky,

Why do you have to keep solutions to yourself?

stu.

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#663
In reply to #662

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 5:33 PM

It's a function of living on magnetic island! Solutions are magnetic and just naturally gravitate there. Just like everyone knows that all the gold is in beaches on the gold coast, right?

Chris
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#664
In reply to #662

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 6:04 PM

Hi Stuey

Good question and I will try to answer in a gentle way.

If one has worked on a system for many years and has gone through huge troubles in testing, testing, testing and verifying and looking for funds and working overtime and getting involved with patent attorneys and some times risking life and limb and so on and so on, I would be nuts to try and save lives or at least to provide shelter, for emotional reasons, which would not save any one, right now, even if I would publish what I am on about.

You see, back in 2004 there was the Tsunami just around the corner and already back then was I thinking of what is now crystallizing as a more than adequate solution to temporary or even high standard housing.

Very legitimate question though. It is hurting and not only me, that one has to rely on third parties and play the game that needs to be played if one wants to deal with the people in charge. They have a way of doing things and confidentiality is a big part of it. Its their way or no way sort of a thing.

I hereby promise to donate 1 tenth of my production free of charge to any human that has been uprooted by mother earth and by her ways of letting off steam. You see, if some legal eagle sees this he would cringe at my free offer. It does not seem fashionable to be emotional about things in their world.

This could take another 12 months but it will be ready one day and hopefully help some needy people. I have support from friends, that is more than I could have hoped for.

Trust me, I am an honorable man and have great sympathy for any one hurting. It is out of my hands and I would betray the trust of the mentioned third parties if I would publish. I would do more harm than good.

I hope to find your understanding in this matter, and hope that 'me bragging' does not enter your thoughts. I am very sincere about this whole matter.

"Reden ist Silber, schweigen ist Gold." (German proverb)

Hope all goes well Mate, Ky.

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#692
In reply to #664

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 2:17 AM

Ky, Thanks for that.

I do understand, completely.

It would be a privilege to be of some assistance to you, in this quest, if you need.

Just ask.

Cheers,

Stu.

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#600
In reply to #597

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 9:44 PM

Actually Haiti is mentioned by Spacecannon in the first post, as kick off poster.

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#605
In reply to #600

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 10:46 PM

Trans, and all,

I do apologise. I was by this prompted to go back and read it again.

Sorry! Guys. Getting old!!!!

I did post, a long time back, something about encouragement to Spacey's mate, as a proper responce to the thread as I saw it.

Cheers,

Stu.

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#608
In reply to #605

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 10:59 PM

Not like I'm not free of sin, or age either.- as has been pointed out.

I hate it when my wife, points it out.

Marry a younger woman and it comes up eventually.

Damn I need some drugs.

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#739
In reply to #569

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/10/2010 1:08 AM

Hi CaptMoosie

I would be surprised if Giardia isn't present in Haiti. It seems to be in most tropical areas, even the dry tropics.

I fully agree emergency water supplies should be a separate thread.
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#575
In reply to #554

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 2:58 PM

When the sand becomes too heavily loaded so the filtration rate slows too much, open the doors, clear the sand out, reseal, refill and start again.

Good filtration in sand filter occurs within the upper most 2" generally. At first use the water will flow somewhat freely through the sand then as a layer of micro organisms form the flow will relax a little. It's these micro organizims which provide the best filtration characteristics of sand filtration systems. To clean then remove only the upper two or three inches of sand

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#623
In reply to #575

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 8:12 AM

Dear bwire,

Are you addressing the cleaning of sand for a Slow Sand Filtration bed? Looks like it. You can either 1). rake it, then remove it, clean it by washing, and replace it; or 2). harrow it. I've found harrowing works the best because it leaves an established microbial population in the upper layer of the sand; this is beneficial as it takes quite some time to reestablish the "Schmutzdecke" to make the filter effective again. Of course there several important factors that effect the establishment of it, including water temperature, microbiology, and overall water quality of raw water. Actually, it's a little more complicated than that......I'm just making it just simple enough to understand and grasp the basic concepts as well as required operational parameters for the non-environmental engineers out there following this blog.

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#640
In reply to #623

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 3:01 PM

Thank you in future times I'll recommend harrowing

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#645
In reply to #623

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 3:28 PM

You almost insulted me.

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#510
In reply to #508
 Find in discussion

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/05/2010 6:59 PM

I looked up mothballed aircraft carriers and found the Ronald Reagan, John F. Kennedy,Saratoga, and Forestall. Also are the Kitty Hawk, & Constellation.

Some have made the case that parking them to do things like desalinization of water, serves the US national purposes, since then they could disembark quickly as needed in crisis.

"Hey, gottah problem, gottah go!"

Solution for that would be a reservoir pumped full of fresh water out the docked nuke carrier, augmented by rain.

The Clemson U work is important, for the Civil Engineering department is working not on shelter, but on issues of water. Lansford Bell is working on water, and Martha Skinner and Doug Hecker are working on Shipping Container Housing.

I believe there is a University in Port-au-Prince. Could be there they have an idea of how to solve their water problems. NYC is not supplied with water out of the ocean.

Desalinization out ships may well be same as tents, and a properly built reservoir, in conjunction with the best of the Micro Infrastructure Systems be a progressive set of solutions preventing further wholesale disaster in Haiti.

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#511
In reply to #510

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/05/2010 7:07 PM

It has been many years, and the USS Ranger I served on was pre-nuke, but I do believe the preferred method for desalinating water on the carrier was evaporation/condensation. More modern approaches lean towards reverse osmosis. Both are very, very energy intense. Catching rainwater, assuming there is enough, is a lot cheaper approach, more appropriate to economically-challenged circumstances...

Full disclosure- a major part of my current practice is designing rainwater catchment and treatment systems for private applications (typically NOT economically challenged).
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#515
In reply to #510

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/05/2010 8:34 PM

Trans, like I said before the USN will never give up a carrier no matter what the crisis is and the current status of the carrier is......I think they are still listed as a Class A or B "National Defense Asset", just like "specials", B-52H, B-1B and B-2 bombers, C-5A/B Galaxy and C-17A Globemeaster III Transports, Minuteman III ICBM's, Trident class "boomers" and LA Class fast attack boats.....just ain't going to happen regardless of how much tooth pulling ya gunna do.....

Don't get me wrong, it's a great idea you have there, but...............

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#519
In reply to #510

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/05/2010 9:53 PM

Check on USN ships with the designation "AD" these are fleet repair and supply vessels and you maybe impressed by the capabilities and they're easier to come by than a "CV"

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#521
In reply to #519

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/05/2010 10:08 PM

Thanks, I didn't want to give up on ships in the mix entirely, but they are certainly limited even more than shipping containers, at least as far as shelter is concerned.

As far as power supplies they may or may not have utility.

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#527
In reply to #521

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/05/2010 11:18 PM

Tanscendian-

As I see it, these ships are very, very expensive to operate, and one needs an organization such as the US Navy with a significant infrastructure in place to support them (this pretty much applies to all warships). If the UN had its own Navy, perhaps they could support some "first response" type vessels specially designed for emergency operation. However, the best we can hope for at present is something like the Carl Vinson being a first responder, which is exactly what we got. If we could get the UN really dedicated to emergency response, on the scale that the US military has demonstrated, then maybe they should think in terms of a fleet of ships, including hospital ships, the Russian floating nuclear power plant idea, and pre-loaded container ships with necessary equipment, machinery, food, etc. I don't really see that happening, unfortunately...
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#528
In reply to #527

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/05/2010 11:51 PM

Well really what I wanted to do originally was run 'em up on the beach and turn 'em into hotels, but I got a little enthused thinking of the aux gennys and all.

Really I didn't really want to operate one.

I think I just wanted one.

I mean I've even imagined an aircraft carrier as a resort, just sitting there with Maules or 172s on it.

Hey, it just is not very practical.

In fact I had a chance to live on a Ferry docked in the Hudson, but gee, one bathroom and about 20 people, and I didn't like the captain.

No wonder once they stop really being ships, they just shot 'em for practice.

Looks like Ranger CVA-61 is hanging out at Bremmerton waiting to see if anybody will turn it into a museum. First angled deck from get go I read.

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#535
In reply to #528

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/06/2010 2:40 AM

Trans,

In reality I don't think you're too far off the mark - Ideally

Carriers are great logistical centers.

Examples include the "evacuation" of Saigon (Vietnam War)

Park one out of small arms range and it makes a great base for all sorts of air supply and projects a "law and order presence".

But I agree; getting one is not likely, and getting one for "refugees" is in the "forget it" basket of those who make such decisions.

We also do not have enough information to know if such a "parking" is "ham fisted" or an appropriate security step to enable aid to be delivered.

I'd say get in the door first - so we can get the intel - then work out how to best deliver.

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#536
In reply to #535

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/06/2010 11:15 AM

The Ship concepts I wrote of became confused, for originally I was thinking of ship ships to augment the containers and then thought of carriers and the water issue.

There are old liners available fairly cheaply, but it may very well be similar as to how you can buy an old airplane fairly cheaply, but between insurance, and parking, and maintainence, they end up costing what they cost.

Later on, maybe, for the cool factor, maybe there will be a place for them, as floating hotels for the Haitian tourist industry, or something like that, but for now I'm pretty well convinced its an idea for the shelf for now.

Even the industry of scrapping is fraught with some significant problems for if you do that safely and properly you can't make any money at it, in the US at least.

An important issue right now is how to properly work within the context of CR4, and Globalspec to properly, according to their desires and strictures, speak of our think tank work outside of this thread to either governments, academics, or the media.

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#531
In reply to #527

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/06/2010 1:45 AM

Another abundant source of good clean fresh water is the by-product of air-conditioning. We catch and store all of ours. Particularly beneficial in the tropics.

Years ago , working in Hong Kong we used the water from the de-humidifiers. These were to preserve the fabrics and interiors of homes and yachts from mould etc. There is a company now capitalising on this principle as a source of potable water supply.

However, just as the hotwater heater industry here has now adopted compressor heat-pumps as the standard, ( no more resistance elements) so I see in the future a solar powered de-humidifier as a viable source of potable water for each dwelling or habitat, autonomously.

So, as this project will run for a few years yet, let's invent the process now.

Maybe another thread tho' Cheers, Stu.

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#518
In reply to #508
 Find in discussion

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/05/2010 9:49 PM

I have some literature about a "personal water purifier" that sounds similar to what you describe as being developed by Potters for Peace- it may be the same device...

This may be what you're thinking of

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#526
In reply to #518

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/05/2010 11:08 PM

That's a bit bigger than the one I remember, which was about the size of a normal drinking cup (maybe half liter or more). Probably similar technology. I am a bit nervous about this group's particular knowledge base regarding "filter media", but that may be more the fault of the reporter than the developers...
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#533
In reply to #526

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/06/2010 2:01 AM

The filters have been very well regarded regardless.

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#537
In reply to #518

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/06/2010 12:08 PM

GA to bwire regarding the water treatment bucket.

I looked over the specifications and am very IMPRESSED at the reported removal rates, especially Giardia Lambia & live Crypto. Basically a GAC system somewhat suped-up!

NOTE: This endorsement is coming from a PE that specializes in Water & Wastewater Treatment.

IF after validation of test report values and costs, I would conditionally say GO FOR IT!!! However, some questions remain in my noggin', as follows:

Q1: How much water can this bucket filter ultimately treat before it becomes ineffective and needs replacement?

Q2: What is the typical Unit Cost of these filters and is the cost dependent on gross volume orders?

Q3: Readably available or will there be backlogs in orders placed? Is there enough manufacturing capability? Enough stockpiled/warehoused units?

Q: Is this treatment bucket system approved and endorsed by the WHO?

That'll do for now. I'm sure I'll have more questions later when I've time to digest the specifications some. Glad to have seen John Hopkins involved in laboratory testing and evaluations! Does anyone that is associated with this filter system have a copy of the John Hopkins report as well as the Doctor or Administrator in charge of evaluations and issuing reports....need a lead in name in case we need to contact John Hopkins. My point being it's so easy to post almost anything on a website is a strong need for independent validation!

Have a great sunny day!!!! We missed yet another blizzard this winter last night and today....that makes 3 so far......knock wood!!!! *LOL*

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#547
In reply to #537

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/06/2010 11:38 PM

My point being it's so easy to post almost anything on a website is a strong need for independent validation!

Absolutely, I met some of the guys on board the program and they are genuine.

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#506
In reply to #503
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/05/2010 4:27 PM

Glad to see that the Canadians are on top of things so far! However, 50K Liters of water production is just a mere drop in the bucket....

As c-warner points out, the average person requires 2 L per day just to stay alive. In reality, I think you're going to need much more than that, especially if large portions of the population is experiencing the "runs" or other gastointestinal problems, including diseases picked up from unsanitary waters and other conditions. Even at 2 L per capita, there is a very real danger of dehydration occuriing enmass, especially during the hot humid summer months.

When I was in thr Gulf during DS (1991), we were drinking no less than 6 L of water per day per Troop just to stem off dehydration in mid-June just before departing for CONUS. Even when drinkling that amount of water, some troops did become dehydrated and required Medivac to the closest MASH for medical treatment.......usually IV Infusion of fluids. And the troops still bitched about being required to drink that much water! Ya believe it?????? Jeepers.......Anyhow, the daytime highs (in the shade) often reached 120 - 125 degrees F. Not that Haiti will experience those extremes, but I'm sure the daytime highs will often reach over 100 to 105 and possibly 110 during the months of June through August. Therefore, it's imperative to produce much more water by whatever means necessary.

Inregard to the US Army's water treatment equipment power requirements. It's not as bad as you'd think and the entire treatment train can be run off a portable diesel or gas operated genset.......I believe that the power requirements and the inner workings of the equipment may still be classified, so at this juncture I cannot remiss any further due to National Security reasons.

Place the rubber bladders inside the containers to: A). keep them cool and out of sunlight as most are black, and B). keeps them out of the reach of thugs and water bandits.

Geoff, good style man finding the maufacturer for the rubber bladders!!!!

Hope these tidbits are of some help.

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#517
In reply to #506

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/05/2010 9:40 PM

Haiti climate

The climate is tropical, with some variation depending on altitude. Port-au-Prince ranges in January from an average minimum of 23° C (73° F ) to an average maximum of 31° C (88° F ); in July, from 25–35° C (77–95° F ). The rainfall pattern is varied, with rain heavier in some of the lowlands and on the northern and eastern slopes of the mountains. Port-au-Prince receives an average annual rainfall of 137 cm (54 in). There are two rainy seasons, April–June and October–November. Haiti is subject to periodic droughts and floods, made more severe by deforestation. Hurricanes are also a menace.

Read more: Climate - Haiti - average, annual http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Americas/Haiti-CLIMATE.html#ixzz0eigUzfZB

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#522
In reply to #517

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/05/2010 10:35 PM

351

Regional water centers

A vinyl bladder (swimming pool liner material) inside a 20 ft container is a common (potable or non-potable) water supply solution in remote construction situations in Australia. The "tank" container is usually on to of another (used as a lock-up for sundry equipment)

Mods are;

Cutting a hole for outlet, usually 75 mm (3") Storz,

Cutting a "manhole" sized filler opening in the top.

Fitting liner capture and manhole lid hinge flange

Inspecting/removing burrs and sharps that may cut liner and plugging or covering holes that liner could extrude through. Rust prevention - if desired.

Laying in liner and capturing at manhole and outlet fitting.

Additional bracing and "safety locking" of doors.

Filling;

Most bulk tanker transfer pumps can manage good flow against what is effectively a 10 foot head.

I've not seen a 40 ft - maybe the stresses are too high for the standard material thicknesses - and from what I glean from the thicknesses used wheeled ones posted - quite likely.

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