Shipping Container Housing

Hi Scep, good reminders of things looking like "over looked in the excitement".

The simple plinth, key-in surface mount, shaded [Aussie fishing hut] concept is still the "phase one basic" in my view.

Right now I'm trying to imagine the minimum mods and fittings to "inhabit" during extended wet in mosquito paradise.

And in the 40 foot case; 3? families x 3? generations?

Ugly thoughts for a spoiled western "all mod cons" hermit.

CaptMoosie-

I agree with you about the problems with dams, but hilltop tanks make a lot of sense. I have a bit of trouble with the concept of shallow wells in this part of the world, especially in heavily populated areas and considering the normal approach to disposal of waste water (these concerns are based on real-world experience, not text book learning). Relying on treatment to insure water safety in a technically-challenged society is not such a good idea...Rain water is much safer, except for the fact that metropolitan areas have a lot of air polution that tends to contaminate collection surfaces...

Yes C_Warner, installing multiple large volume hilltop (see I don't mention hillside here) tanks for a potable water supply may be a good idea, but I have me doubts that you're be able to full any one of the them using a rainfall collection system, which would be needed over a very large area. You will not have enough water to supply the population served, especially if the encounter a draught year or years. The only sensible way to provide the amount of water in the volumes you need will be via deep wells, not shallow wells, as a source.

I'm not coming up with this directly out of a textbook or a group of textbooks, but from many years of actual design experience designing water and wastewater treatment plants, storage reservoirs/tanks/standpipes, wells of all types and some massive pumping facilities in reservoirs/lakes/streams & rivers, and the ground......from village idiot proof all the way to very very hands on operator-wise. If you do a hydrological study you will see that centralized rainfall collection systems just won't cut it. Then how does that collected rainfall water find its way all the way up the hill or hills and into the tank, eh? You still have to pump it for the volumes you need, which would be several Million of Gallons per Day even for a small community of say 25,000 capita (figuring even a lowball 50 gpcd for basic daily drinking needs, minimal bathing, cooking and clothes washing........BTW, here in rural NYS villages we use around 125 gpcd as a design figure based on historical useage.....NYC uses something like 500 gpcd, even if you factor out leaks and waste! I know this number after have worked on several NYCDEP Catskill Watershed projects about 9-12 years ago.....West of the Hudson Watershed as it's known). Even for 25,000 population, you'd need to store 1.25 MG per day just for the basics and ignoring the fire flow demand (if ever desired by Haiti, but I strongly recommend it), leakage allowances, evaporation and waste. That is a lot of water just need to keep a small amount of people alive, feed and hygienically clean......and I'm using a very small consumption volume per capita. Of course you could argue it's too high for a developing nation and you may be right, but I ask why tread water backwards and limit that nation to bigger and better things in the future by limiting their safe water capacity? Historically, emerging nations require more and more safe drinking water year after year if they want to develop their economy. Established infrastructure when properly sized will attract new foreign business as well as native business venture. I say provide them with as much water resources as practical and fundable....this must be discussed with the Haitians because adequate water resources will eventually dictate their future economical growth.

Placing hilltop tanks is a great idea, but they and their foundations must be seismically designed, whether they are elevated welded steel tanks or pre-cast, pretensioned concrete tanks or reservoirs (like a Natgun or Preload tank). Hillside tanks are not a good idea in very active seismic zones, unless you want them sliding down the hill and breaking apart, thereby drowning hundreds of people below.

Not a good idea ignoring disinfection of any type, especially in a centralized water supply system in the tropics. Chlorination of raw well water is very easy to teach anyone with a 6 grade education.....all you have to do is look at the water borne disease outbreaks in the UK and USA prior to the introducing of chlorine to water supplies (late half of the 19th Century until pre-1910) Forget about rainfall collection systems because they're not reliable, produce too little water volume to be sustainable, and also prone to contamination. Whereas, properly drilled and sealed drinking water wells (over 40 feet deep), when properly sited upstream and uphill of water courses, and with proper no-build, no waste dumping, no garbage exclusion zones will provide all the water you need. It can't get any simpler than that.....hell, if they can do it throughout African countries, then they can do it better here in Haiti.

Again, all this talk about water systems and tanks or dams and reservoirs is grand but should be reserved for the future discussions, as it has really no place herein until we can provide adequate safe water to the masses in the interim at many many shelter sites.

Ditto, in regards to discussions about the establishment of new future storm drainage, solid waste, and wastewater infrastructure. First things first. Later on, we can put a few bugs in the ears of the Haitian government. When you talk about building new infrastructure for a devastated nation like Haiti, you're basically talking about reinventing all their destroyed infrastructure in the preveiously served areas, let alone providing brand new infrastructure from scratch in the previously deprived/unsupported outlying areas.....this is akin to starting to build a nation from basically a zero launch point/baseline.

I hope all this makes some sense.

Hi Trans,

An open top container makes an excellent unit for rainwater collection. just add a tarp as a liner... arms out to the side can be other tarps.

(many other types of containers shown here)

but I tend to believe CaptMoosie about drilled wells as being the long term solution.

Another use of the open top container is as an 'underground farm'. This is a tried and true method of growing production vegetables, but requires some technology. Basically you would bury the container in the ground, level with the surface, and have as many as you can get. The top gets transparent glazing of whatever sort you can lay hands on. This creates a greenhouse. Plants are grown on movable pallets or trays. The system is designed to start at one end as seeds or seedlings and be harvested at the other end after an ideal growing season.

In the article I read about it, the water system and night lighting were automated (grows 24/7) and so was the conveyor. Also the containers were pressurized with CO2. but simple greenhouses with growing tables will work too.

On another note, the Hunzas of Northern Pakistan have been practicing this (see pic) method of organic farming for centuriies, growing fruit trees in the mountains. The build retaining walls, and fill them with graduated soils, often hand composed of their own wastes. The run-off water from the mountains is highly mineralized and excellent for farming.

Regarding the terracing of the hills.

When the relief effort gets ahead of the immediate , pressing needs, a terracing, soil amendment/ stabilization effort might pay dividends in the long term. Possibly using a combination of irradiated-sterilized human waste and moisture absorbent disposable diaper filler, again having been sterilized. These are resources that are going to be generated on site, they can be a disposal problem or a valuable resource. I'm sure a modular irradiation facility could be put in a, oh I don't know a couple of corrugated steel boxes, say boxes 8'x8'x40' and placed to receive , process and package the resource for distribution.

Lot of wonderful ideas being discussed here, maybe we should work towards an implementable design and divide up the thinkin' and executin' workload. This way we can have multiple critical paths going concurrently, avoid a few bottlenecks causing everything to lurch to a halt. Maybe get someone of project manager level , construction or aerospace , critical path method expertise to develop schedules. This would provide as Trans suggested, a plan on hand and possibly avoid duplication of intellectual effort.

we have multiple threads currently idling , in place to discuss the related but separate , disciplines and methods. I would think the effort would also benefit from an overall , site or person, coordinator and spokesperson. Take a vote , democratically elect a CR4 relief Czar.

My two cents ,

packrat

"irradiated-sterilized human waste"

just composting is required as far as I know. at least the Hunzas have done it for centuries, and it works just fine. It works and why complicate it?

Chris (natural born complicator )

I'm with you there.

Irradiation = messing with physiology = bad.

"If it ain't broke , don't fix it"

Stu.

I'm very fond of the rolled cellulose mats containing grass seed and fertilzer...

What think you?

I'm not a very great mathematician for details, and only seem to have a good general idea for figures.

I do have some pretty varied sets of experiences.

Water does weigh quite a bit, and I have seen some right thick and strong plexiglas that was made into a tank for an actor to swim around in for an underwater shot in a studio over in Queens, nearly come apart. Was really sort of fun to watch as the water filled the rectangular plexiglass tank, as the sides began to bulge, and the art director, production manager, DP, Director AD and all of us watched the water rise, and the sides bulge more and more, wondering if we were going to watch things get worse until the studio was flooded.

Finally a consensus was reached, and filling the tank was discontinued.

The actor was directed to sort of crouch down for their underwater scene.

This does sort of influence me to suggest tests sometimes.

I myself live in and have lived in extremely small apartments, or homes, and tight city spaces where every square foot indoor and outdoors matters.

The full sized shipping container, even if it does make a great place to fill with water off the roof of shipping container complex may be sort of unwieldy.

I'm inclined to suggest cutting them in half, and making two water holding tanks out of one, instead of just cutting the top off one, or getting ahold of the open top ones for the water holding purpose.

It also occurs to me that if possible, and you were to use the complete container as a water tank leaving the top on would keep the water in better condition than if it had no top.

If the half container sized water tank was horizontal, it would still be best to have a cover, and then as well it may be workable to forget right now about any sort of roof water supply system at all, and simply part tarp attach a catchment that fills the container water tank when rain falls.

As far as growing food or germinating plants, a real simple system I've seen written of in relation to tight space growing of potatoes, was made of stacked tires filled with dirt. I suspect this would be real possible, and take up not much space.

If somebody wants to move this to the new water blog thread, go ahead.

It is nice when writing a post to another contributors to be able to look at what they wrote, and then rejoin, so I am inclined to write back where I find a post, and try not to worry too much about categories of topic and off topic.

As far as those issues, well, just as in any meeting, some asides while not necessarily on topic serve those in the meeting to actually make decisions, as they allow a bit of time for different minds to dance to the rhythms that serve to unite us.

I don't like to feel pressured here or anywhere else on the forum or in life to every moment stay on topic.

We simply do not all think about things important and trivial at the same time, in the same way, so the off topic post is same as what happens in successful meetings, same as the way a joke, or a compliment about a new dress, or a smart tie might move the different participants in a meeting along.

I've not much got another job that is paying me anything, so this is a bit of a job for me, regardless of whether or not I'm getting paid.

I really do enjoy working, though when digging ditches I did like to listen to the radio, but when writing I like silence.

Last good idea I had as far as strategies and shipping containers was to see what best would work at the 16 food distribution centers.

P.S. The water in the actor tank over there in Queens had a distinct green color tint to it. I've long wondered why that was.

A green tinge in a large town water volume, is usually iron. Much as iron produces the green tinge in glass (if you look at it edgewise - some is grey, most is green). A source of the iron in town water is cast iron mains and smaller steel piping. Rust will react with chlorine treatment. The usual method of removing it by a flocculant - say alum - precipitation and filtering.

For what its worth, a most effective way to clean up a tank of town water, is a swimming pool flocculant (alum+?) then a submersible pump hooked directly to a commercial cartridge filter, and manipulated as a vacuum cleaner. The filter grade used for brandy, produces remarkably clear water.

Chris,

Good Idea,

What about using open top containers by turing them on there sides and placing two together and weld closed along the edges...now you have a double wide...remove one one set of doors and one of the top ones for a window on the side container....even use one or both of the upper doors as a door cover/shade....could be easily secured with welded piping supports.

Place your venting chimney at the rear corner away from the door for forced venting flow...even make a section of the window a slotted vent as well (needs Mosi mesh on it).

Any further thoughts on the herring bone idea and using the 20 footer also attached?

Geoff Daly NH

Chris-

After looking at my preliminary wind analysis, how about a wagon-wheel layout, containers as spokes, with a central courtyard, maybe a secure entrance gate; all container doors open into the central courtyard...

Don't ovrlook areas for garden plots

I've sent you this model in a .wrl file type. The STL was 1.5gb!! omg. I need to know what file type you need.

Geoff... let's see what charlie comes up with and find the right file types.. and maybe they just need to be simple cubes instead of these complex models.. then we can work out different configurations with different sized containers.

ps. I believe it was Transcendian (Russell) who first proposed the wagonwheel arrangement.

Kyzine-

Excellent concepts- one suggestion. The catchment surfaces, if properly designed, could be extended, at least in part, to help provide shading for the habitations...

That is a given since way back, but you can also put some dirt and/or rubble fines on the container roofs even set up clothes lines - make use of the areas.

Also keeps the noise of rain 'bearable' in a tin box.

Good to see you got the same inspirations from the wheel concept.

This is more elaborate than what I had originally envisioned, but I like it! I think a smaller wagon wheel, though- several wagon wheels scattered about where land is available, rather than trying to do one giant one. Some of the outer containers dedicated to community bathroom facilities, with one or two of the inner ones for rain catchment...

http://www.eoearth.org/article/Water_profile_of_Haiti

We've been on 'level 6' water restrictions here for some time now, recently eased due to the heavy unseasonal rains which have caused flooding. Level 6 =110l/cd, no washing cars, no watering gardens, etc. The relaxation has meant that we are now encouraged to limit our usage to 140l/cd. The restrictions have not been waived as the reservoirs are as yet only 60% filled. All this is only to illustrate that in a modern urban city water usage/cd approximating 110-140litres is achievable. Indeed the populace has become accustomed to it. I don't like only 4 minutes for a shower any more than anyone else, but if we can do it.....

Stu.

I'm interested

sent you a pm

Garth

Captain, I am 98% with you, and the 2% I suspect is just differences in how we express ourselves. And/or what we are each imagining are the conditions, on arrival.

I think you have clarified that both the earthquake side and wind side have an adequate sets of solutions for the conceivable range of circumstances possible.

Though I still favor 'immediate' DYI water by tarps, bamboo and lined containers as tanks, wells are an excellent solution to the longer problem. As drilling takes a little time, I think this should be brought forward in the logistics plan to ASAP status.

A tarp and bucket is little use in the dry season.

I presume we have established that there is nothing about the Haitian geology or soil properties, or contamination or prior abuse, that is counter to successful potable water production.

Hopefully the treatment is 'a luxury' not a 'must have' in the first response context. I.e. Our raw water will be superior to what they have now.

I think your post an excellent effort to crystallize many factors.

Fully agree on 'great care' with large masses of elevated water. Well said.

_{<no pun intended>}

Hurry up and get to mine - I need this sort of input / analysis

Pentagon-backed researchers have come up with a novel new way to purify water: Just add bacteria.

Scientists at Sam Houston State University (SHSU) have successfully designed portable, efficient, bacteria-based water treatment units. Two of the devices are on their way to Army bases in Afghanistan, and the research team is in talks with the Pentagon about sending a working prototype to help relief efforts in Haiti.

Read More http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/02/bacteria-based-water-treatment-headed-to-afghanistan-haiti-next/#ixzz0fd8dptJR

Let's see a showing of hands from you folks that have any course studies in Microbiology in the past? I bet not many of you do.

I find this kind of posturing counterproductive and, frankly, offensive.

Stu.

Actually when I was in college I took microbiology as an elective course.

My major was Audio Visual Technology.

Why I took Microbiology as an elective instead of some easy sort of elective had to do with my desire to be able to speak with people about subjects beyond what they might think I was able.

There are antiseptic and mechanical ways of dealing with pathogens.

You either change things, or get them off you.

As far as changes, well some are necessary inside, and others outside.

GA Moosie.

Long term water is better handled by the experts.

We are basically a think tank, and are best suited to providing ideas for the "down and dirty" type short term measures. Long term items, like mains water supply and treatment, require detailed knowledge of the particular site conditions and considerable experience.

I have designed water and waste water treatment plants in the past. It is not a job for the amateur.

Sceptic, many thanks.

Yes, I have to agree with you that the water and wastewater infrastructure is to be left for the big boy consultants like Metcalf & Eddy or Brown & Root et all. Thankfully, I can do all of required design and analysis work in both fields, but my firm lacks the manpower and vital resources to throw into such two large projects......where on earth am I to find thousands of man-hours just to do the field work, field surveys and recon, let alone all the in-office contemplation of the mountains of obtained data, aerial and ground survey work, not to mention the thousands of man-hours to just design the sewer collection systems and the water distribution networks and water storage tanks and reservoirs + the necessary water & wastewater treatment plants. And on top of that all, you must start off with validated census track data, building and area occupancies, land use data, zoning data and laws if it exists, vegetative cover types and areas, evaporation pan results, topography, land slopes, and the list goes on and on. If none of these items is in existence then they have to be done at a cost. Together, compiling such data bases will cost hundreds of millions of dollars for a nation the size of Haiti. NOPE, NOT FOR THE FAINT HEARTED, although I've done all of the above Tasks for several good sized villages and towns in the past, but nothing the size of a small country. And you can bet that the USACE has oodles and oodles of data bases for all the above plus more, all stored on computer tape and little getting into the final report....it's all stored away in event of war or to handed over to the hired consultant engineering firm.

The more that I reread that USACE report the more I am convinced that Haiti needs or requires several desalination plants. Just to get the groundwater to a level that is acceptable will cost the nation dearly because first you must reestablish the forests and general vegetative ground cover to help recharge the groundwater resources and the reduce the erosion of the remaining soils. Then you have to clean up the contaminated groundwater, mainly by air-stripping and other unit processes. Then you have to dig-up the old and abandoned landfills, recycle the materials and establish newer lined sanitary landfills. I'm sure most of existing deep wells have substantial levels of salinity that will have to be rehabbed.

This Reforestation will also reduce the amount of storm water runoff and also reduce the sedimentation of water storage reservoirs that already exist. Right now it's quite possible that it may be already to late for the existing reservoirs and hydro dams.

CapptMoosie-

Very few people in this part of the world are willing to acknowledge that reforestation is critical for insuring good water quality. Good call.

C-W, many thanks....just basic ecology really and knowledge how the water cycle works!

Kyzine, If you're doing hurricane wind and force analysis on the shipping containers, then I have a secret for you.....

Pssssstttttt.......whispering into your ear:

Way back in the blog I've already performed the analysis on a single fully exposed 40-foot box. Yes, it's nice and dandy to reinvent the wheel with a super duper 3D FEM package with terrific graphics cap's, but why bother doing it all over again with multiple containers in the model, because ultimately you are loosing a fair chunk of your Factor of Safeties in regards to both sliding and uplift scenarios....??????

In regard to some statements about providing some airspace under the container boxes: my reaction to that idea is the strongly reply NO WAY. To provide such spaces will only aide the uplift wind force component acting on these boxes and make them much more prone to being tossed about! THINK AIRPLANE WINGS.....LIFT VS. DRAG and you'll see what I mean. You are better off burying the boxes only a few feet into the pre-leveled construction site and berming excavated soil up around the box compounds, leaving 2 or 3 feet exposed at the tops of the walls for ventilation openings. You want to provide a sturdy, rigid earth shelter which have been proven in the past to be highly resistant to tornado funnel wind forces, the most destructive natural forces known to mankind.

So, why are we trying to rehash or regurgitate all of this in the blog....I had thought that all this had been settled long ago (over a week ago)???

Aren't some of the late comers in the blog not reading previous posts that are invaluable to the establishment of answers that were already discussed and hence resolved????????

I'm getting a headache and bad JUJU feeling how these blogs are going willy nilly...

CaptMoosie-

I am the one that did the CFD analysis of wind effects, and it is in no way intended as a comment on your most valuable calculations- yours are more valuable for considering what anchoring requirements must be met...

I did the analysis mostly because I can (and I had a bit of spare time to dedicate to the project), and it doesn't take a whole lot of effort with today's software. What I was looking for was not so much what is required for anchoring (such analysis is not going to improve on what you have contributed), but rather the effect of different village layouts- container alignments, separation, stacking, the tower idea, etc. A proper layout can mitigate the effects of the wind on the downwind structures (although the upwind structures still have to deal with the full force...

Please don't feel that this contribution has been intended to suggest that your contributions are any less valuable or critical to the overall discussion.

I'm with you on the partial burial concepts for much of the same reasons you speak of.

Not really against partial burial, but see some technical difficulties related to water tables and time to dig, waterproofing, tar available, and stuff like that.

I've suggested lots of stakes pounded in with either sledgehammers or maybe even that tool that is like a mini pile driver.

Depends on what's really available how some things can be accomplished.

In lieu of welding machines and power to run them, and skilled welders, might have to use nuts and bolts for instance, or wire rope, and nico presses for strap downs.

Properly equipped foundation and installation crews will be awful important, but even they will need some standard tools and materials to work with.

Standard procedures will be very good to come up with as well, but I doubt from afar, I or anyone else can really really provide them.

As for complete burial, I think this is a valid concept still.

There are hi-hoe types (28 ton) of construction equipment available, as we've seen pictures of it. I've seen such a vehicle dig such a similar hole in half a day, capable of accomodating the layout in my picture.

I liked the idea of using the concrete fabric, especially over top of the containers, but don't think it will allow skidding of the containers for the bottom layer. There you will need a layer of compacted gravel or something that can withstand the forces of skidding containers..mybe cured concrete fabric and compacted gravel. have to see what's available. Perhaps there is another way of waterproofing underneath?

With a bobcat, the containers could be skidded in and backfilled in the other half day, the hi-hoe can erect the towers with chains, equipment installation and torch mods completed the next day. done.

As to Haitian's not wanting to live underground. First, I proposed it as an Emergency Shelter and potentially hospital. With hurricanes regularly shredding above ground structures, I think they will get it. It is the optimum affordable Shelter for hurricanes in my opinion. Nobody lived in air raid shelters during the war, but they were sure used... both as hospitals and shelters. As for quakes, they happen quickly, and the possibility that you are in the underground shelter is not likely, unless it is a hospital, in which case you will be much safer.

its clean, dry, safe, relatively bug /pest free with a little work, and still leaves ground space available for other activities, such as markets or gardening or whatever. it is also easy to fit with any water collection design chosen.

CaptMoosie, I can see how you think all the solutions are all thought out, and while CR4 is great for proposing solutions, it is not an adequate system for Consensus building, so while you may have no more questions, others may feel that there are other solutions that need to be explored, or the proposed ones explored more, or maybe they are not as understood as they are by you. In any case, the discussions will continue and that is not a hindrance to action. It is human nature.

CR4 was never designed to be a consensus building, decision making, action taking group. the tools and interface are not designed that way.

The bulk of the Haitian population was centred around Port-au-Prince. There is flood plain real estate available for construction of such 'villages' where each village might include a shelter belowground and container-village above plus market place plus water collection system plus well plus public sanitation... plus school, gardenspace, etc. I bet a village such as this could be roughly assembled in a week with one hi-hoe and one-bobcat. able to house a few hundred people. make the poop pit big enough!

Do you imagine that if such a village was put together, that it would not get occupied? I have no doubts whatsoever that it would be.

even though I like to put pictures in every post, i didn't have one for this... so I'll just put this one in... to make you think.. (tahiti)

or how about this viking village on the edge of the water. Any reason such a village can't be located on the ocean beach? for washing etc.

Chris

There you will need a layer of compacted gravel or something that can withstand the forces of skidding containers..mybe cured concrete fabric and compacted gravel. have to see what's available. Perhaps there is another way of waterproofing underneath?

Don't sweat it empty containers move freely over all soil types think how it happens on the pipeline construction sites.

yes but I want the bottom layer to remain waterproof.. so that the seepage from the water table remains outside the 'bubble' in which the shelter would be wrapped.. if you just skid containers over plastic, membrane, or concrete cloth, it would be punctured.. that is why I suggested compacted gravel over the waterproofing.

thanks,

Chris

bwire,

the USACE report form 1998 to 1999 is very illuminating ...looks just like parts of Florida from a Geomorphology asepect...Lime stone, silted alluvial rivers/streams, high TDS's , contaminants from erosion, run off, human acivity and chemicals in and around city wells....shows need for specialized water filtration and treatment.

As CaptMoosie has pointed out HUGE task and very specialized, just based on this oudated report and his own experience.

this is Dean Kamens answer (made in NH)..solar and solar/stirling engne powerd...will distill heavily polluted pond scum even high contcentrated URINE, seen a demo very impressive with urine and pond water in mid July.

Shame USAID/FEMA and UN do not read such stuff, then they would have a disaster plan in place for water making equipment instead of Bottled water.....just think of the money expended and wasted since 1998 or even before, that could have gone to a good water/seawater filtration system over the years?.

Makes you think, "Where did some of these people get there education and elitist mindset who organize disaster relief programs...from the back of a box of Kellogs Rice Crispies"?....."we have the best ideas to save someone like the Haitian people", yet do not take into account such a reasonably comprehensive report from USACE.

Look at Florida and it's SINK holes (remeber the Porsche dealership who lost some cars several years ago to a 100+ foot wide and more than 40 foot deep) through drawing to much water from there "limstone based" well aquifers,,,same will happen in Haiti if it has not done so.

Remember what the report said about denuding of the mountians and population movement to the coastal areas along with population growth will exasperate the situatin for the future.

May end up as someone said evacuate the city bit by bit and flatten and relayout with the supporting infrastructure...avenues and street layout like NY in blocks etc

When will we learn and look around for all types of information and help...who cares if it is not yours originally...end result is all that matters.

So GUYS lets keep putting forward any little iota of info .....even if as we know maybe a repeat of some previous posting...still shows everyone is thinking.

Yes, Kyzine, Chrisg288, CaptMoosie, Garthh and several others, we are and have requested people to cross check...but in the moment we do not always do so and hope I have not done too often.

Geoff Daly NH,

PS, General Crear (sorry misspelt previously) is talking with several of the GlobalCon group right now via Skype.

Geoff, you gotta be kidding me, the General is on Skype right now????? It figures, I have it downloaded by have no microphone and videocam. Would have loved to talk to him regarding what our group can do for him and Haitiann people.

Glad to have been able to read that USACE Haiti Water report!!!!! IT IS A MUST READ.

Geoff, give me a call later of and let me know what's going on.......only wished that the Docs didn't nix my travel to Haiti because of the open heel wound....diabetes SUX

Sink holes are quite common in Haiti as often sink holes are a good indication when looking for water

Chris,

I really like the concept in your renderings. Really good thinking on your part and imaginative! Love the Earth Shelter approach as that type of structure is very resistant to both Hurricane and Tornado force winds....

However, you may want to reconsider not burying the containers so deep, so as to prevent flooding of the entire assembly. Also, you may encounter the season high groundwater level, especially during the Spring and Fall monsoons, that'll end up flooding out the entire complex.

Consider this please:

1). Do provide a shallower excavation, possibly only 2 feet deep. The Haitians can do this depth with plain old hand shovels so no need for heavy excavation equipment! Place and arrange the containers as needed (and as drawn on the Chris' plan). Forget about some of the containers serving as ramps down....make them a part of the entrance to the complex.

2). Backfill and compact excavation soil and other suitable soils from nearby against the containers, providing a gradual berm slope upwards towards the top of containers with a maximum 3 Horiz. on 1 Vertical slope. Do this along each side of complex. Also place and compact soil layer of at least 2 or 3 feet thickness atop the containers. Sod or seed or provide some sort of vegetative cover to hold soil in place.

Problem is, that it'll be very dark inside the complex, so there is a need for inclusion of large plastic skylights, say placed over each living quarter plus the corridors.....

This arrangement solves a lot of issues that have cropped up herein. Provides adequate anchorage of the containers and hence no need to provide anchorages and hold down straps for resistance against uplift and windward/leeward wind forces. Protects the residents much better against airborne projectiles. Keeps the people much drier if poly plastic sheets used atop, around and under containers.

The only thing that I fear is what happens when the residents try to cook inside this complex. I have bad feelings/vibes about them being allowed to do so. Allowing the cooking of food inside poses a Carbon Monoxide poisoning danger. Better off provide several community cooking areas, say in the towers, that would would be properly designed and ventilated....hey community kitchens!!!!

ohhhh a "Bunker Complex"..... *LOL*

Moosie,

Carbon Monoxide????

What are they using as a fuel, and more still, a burner???

Stu.

Stu-

Most likely fuel for cooking, based on traditional practice, is charcoal...Cooking out side is, I believe, a norm...

bwire,

use of solar tube idea is good, but maybe a bit expensive now.

Dick Strawbridge of Planet Mechanics also recomended using 2 liter soda bottles....we could acually now recycle the millions of discarded WATER bottles the agencies (UN, IOM, USAID/FEMA and some NGO's) have disrtibuted (250,000 + per day since Jan 16th) idea is you could place several together to catch the light similar to a solar tube. other wise will just layaround for 50 years or so.

I know CaptMoosie they should have by now have got on the ground water making equipment...shame on the agencies who still only talk and have meetings on what to do...the need to think outside the BOX.

Geoff Daly NH

On the note of recycling, I was thinking that there are (I don't know how many) wrecked cars lying around... Perhaps a 'recycling price' could be attached for CAR BATTERIES which would encourage all able hands to go retrieve said batteries and bring them to central depots, where they can be used to store energy from solar energy products and perhaps be emergency backup for gensets in underground/partial underground shelters. This is an existing resource that just needs to be organized.

GA bwire. I was thinking along similar lines.. but not as smart..

Chris

use of solar tube idea is good, but maybe a bit expensive now.

But less expense than large domed skylights and just as luminary and they can also be mounted at the side.

Probably will. I haven't crunched the numbers yet, but from previous calcs for buildings in cyclonic conditions, the lift coefficient required by the code would be the envy of many aircraft designers. This uplift is the major component to deal with when designing the foundations.

I agree, a 747-400 can have max. take-off weight of 875,000 lbs at 160 to180 mph, it's all about the camber of the lifting surface/container/wing/roof, once the wind starts lifting the surface just a little, the camber increases, more lift , more camber, more lift,,,,failure, really need to secure the containers individually.

Speaking of planes, how about jumbos near the end of their service life, fly 'em, pluck the wings off, push them off to the side, pour concrete foundation piers, instant el giganto "airstream" trailer park, they fly in 500mph relative winds, might be adequate in 150 mph winds, if protected from wind driven projectiles. They come with lavatories that could be externally plumbed and you could pass out 10,000 pairs of aviation snips and they could scrap out the wings for a paycheck.

And if you are only interested in landing once, a stripped down plane can land on a strip that would be too short to take off from, this opens up the possibility of distributing them away from just the main airport.You could probably get some of those Russki pilots that put on those exciting airshow demonstrations, where they auger in their planes after ejecting at 50 foot altitude, they might not be bothered by adverse landing conditions. Cheap too, give em 50 bucks, a carton of Marlboros and a quart of Haitian rum, for each landing they walk away from, they'll be happy as clams.

I'm just sayin',

Packrat

Such things have tourist appeal too.

Used to be a boneyard in Miami with all sorts parked around.

727s might be around as many were retired due to engine burns and the need for a wing demate.

Might be a trick for sure to move the fuselages around.

Maybe a few could get airborne for a last ferry flight, and end up near the airport.

Down the road, down the road...

Trans this came up in PM with Kris

"Has anybody actually asked the Haitian's what they want yet ?" (link)

While I personally have not had the opportunity to ask Haitians what they want, from what I can tell, many want a ticket out of the place, no matter what a paradise it might be on a nice day down by the beach.

That's a good point about asking them what they want.

I should have my informal and unscientific polling of some the ex-pats in the neighborhood completed in a day or two. With the acquiescence of the thread monitors, I'll post some thoughts on Sunday or Monday.

Packrat

Packrat-

Looking forward to your survey...

Agreed Trans - just putting it up as a 'published' person who might be an ally if he saw a basic fix.

As for content; one can only 'formulate' on what one knows.

I'd say he links a better "life style" than a scrap tin hutchie, to bricks and mortar - but only because he doesn't know how "tin" can be otherwise used. Nor has it clicked that the bricks and mortar they had, fell over.

Educate him and another 'publishing' could/might add to impetus.

Yusef-

A very good point about the difference between "shelter" and "housing". When one does an in-depth analysis of this thread, "shelter" appears to be the greatest present concern, with the idea of converting the "shelters" to "housing" as a future income producing industry for the survivors...

Keep it simple, because you have a very short period of time to prepare sufficient shelter for the estimated 2,000,000 people left homeless by the earthquake...

Dear Yusef1,

Last time I lived in NYC there were an awful lot of building that were very dependent on steel for their structural integrity. Some of them like the Flatiron Building on 23rd and 5th have been around for awhile.

When building structures most architects and engineers do take into account where and what they are building.

We have allowed that shipping containers in unmodified states in the short term work with tents as shelter, and not necessarily as homes. We have also gone further and determined that once you put them wherever you do, mobile on site modification crews are recommended.

Would of course be nice to plop down fully completed homes at every needed stop, but there is not time for that.

If stone, lumber, fired brick and clay was so great for Haiti, how come equivalents like cinderblock et al, fell down?

In fact brick cladded buildings are not recommended in earthquake zones, as even if the structure is holding together, if you run out to try and get to relative safety, you are likely to have a lot of bricks fall on you.

It's a long thread. We've already covered some of your concerns.

In fact I am on record in writing on the thread as originally for other structures, but changed my mind right quickly after looking at the facts.

P.S. According to the Haiti website Marble is an important natural resource. It's nice stuff. I still wouldn't recommend it for building in an earthquake zone.

Living in the tropics, I originally pointed out that a shade would need to be put over these containers to make them usable on a fine day.

Even in mid winter, when the days are frequently clear, a "box" will be unlivable. Just before the wet season is the worst.

A suggestion was made to make gutters out of bamboo. If enough is readily available, it would make quite a good "fly" over the top of a container.

A similar arrangement was used in the dry tropics (only a canvas fly over a corrugated iron roof) in Mt Isa (dry tropics). Proved to be more comfortable than the properly built houses.

Good that you mentioned numbers.

I am not sure what solution can be afforded.

It looks like only 2nd hand containers are an option. Second hand prices for 20ft and 40ft containers about the same (new price ratio is 1:1.6). Because 40fts tend to make less trips and carry less dense cargo's than 20fts they are often in better condition and most (but not all) are 9.5ft instead of 8.5ft high

As far 'beds per buck' the 40ft wins.Problem is logistical. Shipping, moving and lifting.

good stuff. ga

General question,

Have you looked at getting containers in by road from Dominican republic. Probably how most aid is going to get in.

DB ports have just built a modern 1 million TEU container port in Caucedo (15 KM from from Santo Domingo) and 156 miles from Port au Prince. Unlikely for a lorry to make more than one trip a day.

Certainly any containers coming in this way with supplies, should be commandeered for housing project.

I am not convinced that 3 million people are in fact homeless. So important to get verification.

Why don't we set a size for at least one 1000 container city and set our goal to actually get it built?

We've not looked at that much, since the Haitians aren't much using the shipping containers at their own ports.

How many million work for you?

1000 container city...

Trans, and everybody. Just noticed that Arthur Barry wants an engineer (CR4,Civil Engineering) to consult with him to develop housing , post crash, in Haiti.

Should we tell him?

Cheers,

Stu

I invited him to look here and that there were civil guys (I mean civil engineers ) who had posted here.

Stu,

Absoluetly we should direct him to as many who can contribute, good point to involve other sections of CR4.

Maybe Chris Leonard can advise us how this can occur?

Geoff Daly NH

Thanks for your uselefull input.

I think my email said 1,000 containers!

How many containers do you think there are available in Port au Prince or Cap Haitian? A rough estimate would be helpful?

Please exclude those loaded with imports (with no where to unload) and those loaded with exports.

How would you commandeer them (legally) and having commandeered them, load, transport and unload them and keep them from being 'comandeered' by someone else?

By any chance are you and your shotgun available?

According to the information we have, there are 7000 containers in Haiti at present (no information as to whether they are full or empty), with another 1275 to 2000 en route with relief supplies. Estimates are that something on the order of 100,000 20 ft containers would be required to provide adequate hurricane protection for the estimated 2,000,000 left homeless. There is equipment on the Island for moving containers, but the quantity and condition of said equipment is not known. Road conditions in the capital area are still of concern with respect to moving containers about.

It is doubtful that full protection for all 2,000,000 people can be achieved before the start of the hurricane season, but it seems that something is better than nothing...

2 million people is an awful lot of people.

Obviously Shipping Containers can only touch some of the needs.

Tents can touch only some of the needs.

I think that in the case of New Orleans many were simply aided in being relocated to cities like Houston Texas.

Looks like it would be a good idea to find out which port cities in Haiti could absorb internal refugees.

Then we might be able to determine how many we might expect to properly shelter in Port-au-Prince, and make suggestions concerning relocations internal to the existing cities and towns of Haiti.

We might want to make arrangements so that for every relief flight in that delivers aid supplies, flights out carry people away.

Figure all this out and we'll really be a bunch of smart guys.

when you check Google Earth, there are approx 7,000+ containers in and around the port and city (took me three hours to take screen shoots and count plus the trailers and tugs/tractors)...in fact some on the outskirts look as if they are being lived in near one factory.

According to a contact I have on the ground, virtually nothing goes out in containers from Haiti....so what you see are the discarded/empty units,,,over 5,000 more are being moved towards Haiti with relief supplies (tents, tarps, food, portable hospital stuff, generators and water purification equipment, timber-plywood, different stud sizes etc, corrugated sheets of steel/plastic, more radios, tools-hammers, saws, nails/screws, scew-drivers, heavt duty long tie-wraps, rope, glue, duct-tape donated by 3M and several other companies).

If you were ever in the military there is a section in the command manual, that allows the on ground commanders to commandeer needed supplies and goods/resources as needed. For the protection of the locals and themselves. So the containers could be claimed under those articles.

Needs a strong commander on the ground to ensure proper distribution and use for the Haitian people....82nd Airborne are there....just request General Schwarzkopf to lead. I feel if he was approached or asked by President Clinton especially, to do this for awhile, I feel he would.

If given full command and no interference with a good plan in place to get the Haitian people better shelter than tents/tarps and wooden/metal lean-too.

No need for any shot-guns, just someone on the ground to think outside the box and not keep referring to there disaster playbooks, as they are so used to going by. Then they can blame the playbook for failure...not this time or the future.

As I said above General Schwarzkopf, he definitey thinks outside the box, if the playbook does not continue working. That's what all top commanders have done and still do...saves lives and resources.

CaptMossie knows where I am coming from, as he has been there in such a situation of commnadeering needed resources locally.

So Johnevans7 does this help knowing what is curently available on the ground and what were your ideas for knowing going forward?, how to deploy, use or arrange in and around the area...see Chrisg288 herringbone concept.

Geoff Daly NH

Dear Packrat, Turned out that while I was not necessarily wrong in projecting that purpose built structures would be better, they are not available. Habitiflex, which is mentioned in the thread, makes some nice ones, but last week or a week and a half ago, they didn't have a single one made and ready to ship.

Even made theirs cost at minimum 69 grand, which aint bad at all, but still out long from reported monies available.

Hence I was turned to consider what was available, and strong, and required less foundation, and we did discover they are not that difficult to move, and am all with it.

solid. ga.

what am I supposed to put in the name boxes so the drawing shows here?

I'm getting the hub concept but circles and grids don't go well think about it everyone puts the culdesacs in and it's a waste.

Triangles on the other hand or even use of the funky block method provided in the photos from Chris do function for a layout of avenues and plots. Picture it the funky block joints as the avenues of a township design, especially if poised upon a slope.

this was 30 minutes in Visio with grids & snaps on. I'm sure there are a hundred crossword style jigsaw puzzles like this.. I could spend all day.. but without some guiding influence other than my imagination, such as CW's wind data, I don't see the point. so please give more guidance.

this sort of complex provides a measure of security and the pathways are easily adapted to have gates (dotted lines), and all the active container doors can be oriented inwards. Obviously some of these larger groupings will have to have connecting doors cut between them. I think a pattern such as this might do well in high winds. The four cardinal points could even have overhead containers on top of the verticals. (ghosted 30's)

this whole complex is easily a fort with a complete double high perimeter, but I don't see that as being aerodynamically streamlined.. it is also easy enough to make a complete second level.. I think that 1 or 2 levels, with the exterior banked with earth for streamlining...and only the cardinal directions open for access... but again.. I don't know... I think the center of town is a good place for the well... just like the olden days.

without having the site chosen, I don't know how to align my streets and avenues to the stars, or encode Phi into the design.. i'm not Pierre L'Enfant

V= Vetical for Ventilation. 40 = 40 footer etc.

another one.

and another

and another

and another... double layer..