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spacecannon
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Shipping Container Housing

01/16/2010 12:05 PM

I have a civil engineer friend whoose dream it is to design and build shipping container housing for general use and for emergency use, like an instant city for Haiti. Im trying to motivate him to live his dream, so what does everyone think about container housing?

spacecannon

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chrisg288
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#1326
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/15/2010 2:16 AM

my suggestions is that you take grid paper and play around with it... fill in with 20, 30, 40, V, W, E.. etc... and scan and post. or send to me and I can turn into sketch... like Needlepoint with shipping containers.. the patterns go on and on.. to adapt to terrain, to accomodate other technologies.. drainage patterns, human movement patterns to local resources and water, etc. I think we need to make site specific designs after identifying water sources such as wells, locating food, medical, and sanitary resources.. also must allow traffic access to ports, beaches,.. it is all site specific.

Chris
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chrisg288
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#1368
In reply to #1326

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/19/2010 2:13 AM

heres another configuration for container clusters. I call it the Neuron pattern. I think it could closely mimic human traffic patterns. I tink of a cooking/camp fire in the center of each neuron.. The angled containers in each neuron are for sleeping. The rest would tend to be sheltered connections.

There is protected space between neurons for kids to play. Again, this design prevents drive-through crimes. It tends to focus human traffic through the containerized channels (diagonal and horizontal) that connects to the next neuron. Containers would still need to be anchored and sun-shielded with some vertical units if available.

I'm not saying this config is ideal for reisisting hurricanes, except where units are properly anchored and containers provide basic shelter. If sufficient modifications are made for ventilation and cooling, they would be an interesting family based community system, with say 4 interdependent families in each neuron. That embeds interpersonal cooperation in the community structure. (I hope)

Chris
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#1369
In reply to #1368

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/19/2010 5:48 AM

I think you're on to something, I like that...

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ky
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#1370
In reply to #1368

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/19/2010 6:02 AM

Very organic! Guess what, I like it too. About the size of a football field, easy plumbing and power supply (underground), central cooking areas,........

I'll get back to you, Ky.

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#1371
In reply to #1368

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/19/2010 8:17 AM

Chris,

I'm envious of your drawing talent.

No, strike that! I'm envious of your ability to visualise shapes. You've rendered some really splendid pics of possible structures, villages, communities.

In the intricate communities, I have to think that you intend them to be relatively permanent. Seems to me that you've thought about the interpersonal relationships the inhabitants will have with each other.

Ergonomics?

Now we have to engineer the communities. Without engineering they will fail, for a multitude of reasons. I know that you know all of this already, but there is a point. Cities, suburbs,towns, villages, communities all are designed the way they are for very good reason. The incorporation of 'services' at reasonable cost to the inhabitants.

The cheapest ( I've been working with 'developers' too long) install for services is in straight lines, topography allowing. The aim is to have as many 'easy' connections in to those services as possible. Complication equals cost. Minimum bends, tees, connections. Complication, line restriction, results in the need for bigger pumps ( more $) etc.

Now it doesn't much matter if we're working for an exclusive gated community, or a ghetto, the same rules apply. Someone has to ante up with the costs for the services. Water,power, sewage, gas etc.

If it's envisioned that some of those services will never be needed, then that takes the pressure off the engineering. But, progress will come to all communities sooner or later, and they'll want 'services'.

We have to design 'em in from the start. Maybe not install 'em. They need to be on the drawings tho'. They need to be "installable" when the time comes.

You'll note the pics of Mexico have the dwellings in straight lines. Boring perhaps, but affordable.

It's more important the less affluent the community is.

The adoption of a "code" for each service is of paramount importance, and within each code the services need to be drawn in.

As far as power goes, aerials are being highly discouraged, not only for the aesthetic, but in poorer communities to reduce the pilfering of the actual energy. (there has been a series of pics doing the rounds illustrating just this-real 'birdsnests').

The thread has gained every thought as to the housing of a temporary nature, where fire and individually harvested water is used.

We have to think also that the people of Haiti will eventually aspire to the lifestyle which we enjoy ( China? India? It's happening. Who are we to deny them?)

One of the lifestyel parameters which will need to eventually be met is the allowance of 200liters per person per day potable water. Oh, Yes It Will. This leads me to the sure knowledge that water services will eventually be needed, at least.

Now if we've constructed a community which has become more or less permanent and the inhabitants are happy with the dwellings they've developed from our humble beginnings, we won't want to be moving them again to establish services, and it would be remiss of us to have the cost of those services unbearable to them.

To all the posters, I commend you to phone your local developers and check the percentage costs services per retail land block. It'll shock you.

Haiti will run the same percentages, just the numbers will be smaller. ( that is unless the land is already half a million per block).

Cheers,

Stu.

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Geoff Daly
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#1372
In reply to #1371

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/19/2010 10:32 AM

Stu,

Good follow up on Chrises posting

Chrises concept of the neuron is very good, as it offers safety and a village/family community atmosphere. I agree layout where ever possible, in straight lines, maybe a series of these in a grid pattern for roads (blocks of 8) etc.

Utilize several central areas for the composting toilets, Garbage collection (use large open top containers as now used here in US), several Frac tanks (15,000 gal ones) for water disrtibution (give every family a 100 liter plastic container to carry the water in) also have a wash area for clothes (maybe showering...use solar to heat water...take the gray water and distill and pump into an overhead tank for reuse for washing and maybe the toilets.

Place a couple of vertical units for solar/wind generation to assist the water pumpig/distillation and feed to the neurons excess.

Good idea Chris and more out of the box thinking again.

This layout would actually work very well for the town of Leogane west of Porto-Au-Prince just beyond Carrefore on rte 2.....they look as if they lost more than 85 % of there buildings and is quite flat...population is 23,000+...very involved in agricuture (banana's, sugar cane, mango's, rice, and other fruits/veggies.

Geoff Daly NH

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chrisg288
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#1373
In reply to #1372

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/19/2010 11:01 AM

Thanks guys,

its not me really.. these thoughts are just passing through me... not from me.

I like to think we are all connected to a heavenly library... where all ideas come from.

Chris
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#1381
In reply to #1373

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/19/2010 2:26 PM

I am SURE they have fountains in Heaven...else, why bother? Probably a fountain in the middle of the heavenly library...
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#1383
In reply to #1381

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/19/2010 3:13 PM

I think we have done all right. I want everybody to understand that while we have not become a company, or made any money, we on this thread have done Think Tank Work.

I predict that shipping containers will be more applied than they might have been in Haiti and will be in other places. I predict also that as they run out, for they are obsolete as they have been made already, folding containers, and folding homes will rise.

I also predict that UN and USAID will within the next month headquarter on a ship in Port-au-Prince.

I also predict that Chrisg's modular electric distribution will take hold. It's a very good concept. Hope he makes some money from it.

I want to at least thank CW, Garthh, and Chris for the editorial work they have done, for no recompense. It did go further and have more impact than we really know about.

The MSN highlight and slide show of Shipping Containers as homes yesterday shows that we all were way ahead of the mass media.

I predict that making shipping container housing in Haiti will be an industry for that nation.

What I am interested in now is how to use explosives to speed up land prep for rebuilding in Haiti.

I suspect that Captain Moosie can sink his teeth into this and get really into it, and that specifying what explosives to use and how to use them would cheer him up.

Did y'all know that demolition is rated number one in worker satisfaction?

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#1380
In reply to #1372

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/19/2010 2:23 PM

Geoff-

Properly planned and managed, one could mitigate the effects of future tragedy by focusing recovery on the outlying areas, as you suggest. When people seeing those in outlying areas getting quicker and better attention than those in the central areas, these outlying areas can serve as a magnet to draw people away from the over-crowded central area, and actually improve distribution of relief supplies, because the rescuers don't have to battle getting into the inaccessible areas...
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#1374
In reply to #1371

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/19/2010 11:50 AM

"I have to think that you intend them to be relatively permanent."

I think it could easily be five years for people to be able to live in houses again... and even then.. will they want to.. and how many people were living in shanty's before for the quake?

If the issues of cooling, sanitary, and water supply are addressed, I could foresee container communities developing to be considered 'affordable housing' in much the same way trailer parks are, here in north america.

at any rate, its a start. Its not up to us to figure out how they want to live when they are on their feet again... just to help them survive long enough to have a choice.

As for 'services' of power, water , air, etc... I recommend the development and manufacture of Modular Components.

Some time ago when I was spending a lot of time above ceilings in commercial buildings, I thought that all that crap (wiring, plumbing, ductwork) could be condensed into a modular 'suspsended ceiling' type of installation, that included electrical, controls, network, hot/cold water & glycol for heating and cooling, as well as air. fire suppression & smoke alarm too.) Sanitary is not usually run in the ceilings.

There would be standardized modular ducts and nodes. (and verticals to the cubicles in the original plan) (light panels and tiles would go in the open spaces between) I never really finished inventing it, but I think that modular wiring/air components would make the installation and maintenance of these systems much easier. Plumbing at this point is probably easier with large rolls of flexible pipe and garden-hose.

this 'hydra' would be inside a 'node'. I didn't finish it.. it gets complicated designwise, even if it could greatly simplify installation and maintentance, when you include plumbing. (especially if the center of each hydra is a fluid control valve)

I'll give some thought to an adaptation of modular services for containers.. good thinking, thanks Stuey,

Chris
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#1377
In reply to #1371

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/19/2010 2:06 PM

GA stuey, I couldn't agree with you more. I've addressed this very issue way back in the thread about the ultimate need for water source, treatment, transmission and storage as well as for future sanitary collection, treatment and disposal and separate storm sewers for Haiti's population and for future economic growth......and what needs to be done planning and designing such systems which is way beyond the capabilities of most of the forum members.

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#1379
In reply to #1371

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/19/2010 2:19 PM

Some very good points, Stueywright- only one comment. I think 200 liters per day per person is really on the low side for modern living, especially since so many people think water is "free" and they have an inalienable right to use it as they see fit. Even in poorer communities with public water, one should think in terms of 600 liters per day- that is more like what the demand will be as affluence gains...
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#1384
In reply to #1379

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/19/2010 5:15 PM

Thanks Charlie,

The percapita 'limit' here is 200/day. When we were in trouble ( drought) a couple of years ago the municipality urged us to aim for 140 p/c/day. Watersaver showerheads and faucets, 4minute showers,etc. It's doable. This all ran 'till just recently, when the rains came. Now, it's 200. Yes, there are those a***h***s who flaunt it. The community in general now realises that it's a responsibility not to be cavalier with such a precious resource.

There should be someway we can impress this on the rest of the planet too, methinks.

Cheers,

Stu

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#1385
In reply to #1384

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/19/2010 5:38 PM

Actually, I suspect nature is going to impress on the rest of the planet the need to conserve water...
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#1386
In reply to #1379

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/19/2010 8:12 PM

In the USA, the DESIGN Average Daily Demand in small cities is usually around 150 Gallons per Capita per Day (GCPD). In rural areas (non-suburbia) such as in small villages and towns is slightly less (if sprinkling of the lawn is curtailed) at about 130 GCPD. Of course larger older cities in the rustbelt east the DADD is much much higher due to water theft, waste (like opened hydrants etc.), and a quite a bit from leakage. Out west in major cities its around 200 GCPD since they've learned to control sprinkling and waste and to live with less....also they're distribution systems are much younger and not prone to winter's frost action in the ground like back east. No two cities are alike in terms of water useage, so you cannot just go ahaead and use a broad-brush approach. Usually, a designer has to review a lot of water records, do trending predictions especially with population growth......demographics play a huge part, so census data is usually employed over 1/2 a century...also records concerning economical growth are taken in much of the time...businesses come and go, tec. It is quite complicated and tidious.

And that isn't even the beginning of the fun design stuff......it's just a wee little piece of the perverbial pie...only after you have done it (design a new system) regardless of the municipality's size, then you can start to really realize the enormity of it all, and finally come to understand why i may take tens of years to fnally get construction of a

system finally underway....and the millions spent to get you to that point
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#1463
In reply to #1379

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/23/2010 10:28 AM

Hi cwarner7_11

As the climate becomes more tropical, the water use per person tends to rise.

200 L/person is fine in temperate climates and can be achieved in the sub tropics.

In the tropics use rapidly climbs.

Of course in the dry tropics (not Haiti), the requirement is considerably higher, and can climb towards 600 or more. The 1100 L used in Doomagee is way over the top, but even with better controls it would be hard to pull it below 400, and that would wind up with the town becoming more of a dust bowl than it is now.

Haiti will have a fairly high use compared to more temperate climates, especially if the standard of living can be elevated.
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#1465
In reply to #1463

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/23/2010 10:52 AM

Sceptic,

Your 600 LCPD value seems to be right spot-on....in US units it equates to roughly 158.5 Gallons per Capita per Day (GCPD) for a temperate climate with restrictions placed on waste, loss and theft, otherwise your value of 1,000 LCPD (264.2 GCPD) may be acceptable also.

GA from me.

BTW, what are your sources for the Design Average Daily Demand DADD) of potable water? UN? WHO? Just curious

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#1466
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/23/2010 11:32 AM

Hi Capt

BTW, what are your sources for the Design Average Daily Demand DADD) of potable water? UN? WHO? Just curious

I remembered some figures that came up about 30 years ago when I was in Mt Isa, and some other items earlier on climate and water use in Australia. (As a matter of interest, the official figures for that period are today different than they were 40 or so years ago. "Corrections" have been applied to the recorded data and they now fit the global warming curves better than they did when they were recorded. I'm only going on memory here and that is from a long time back.)

I forget the title, but the Australian Institution of Engineers publishes an excellent 2 volume set on water engineering. Something like "Australian rainfall and runoff" is part of the title for 1 volume.

Haven't read it but I believe it is a comprehensive collection of data for catchment design and evaluation, runoff calculations, siting of dams, sizing of water storage etc.

Sorry I can't be more specific.
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#1468
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/23/2010 11:56 AM

http://www.eng.newcastle.edu.au/~ncwe/
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#1471
In reply to #1463

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/23/2010 12:29 PM

600 LPD is consistent with my experiences actually measuring water consumption, on the lower end of the economic ladder. On the upper end, this can exceed 1800 LPD, and those on the upper end generally have the political clout and will to prevent anyone from "correcting" this abusive consumption...

Just because it is raining, does not mean you have a good, safe and stable supply of water to drink...
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#1378
In reply to #1368

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/19/2010 2:11 PM

Better to put a water fountain in the center of each neuron

This is very similar to the concept we were tossing about that I called the "Wagon Wheel". I think, however, you will need to think in terms of much higher population density- land area in the urban areas is a premium resource- which is why the earthquake was so costly in terms of human life. I don't think you are going to convince these people they need to spread out a little...
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#1327
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 Find in discussion

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/15/2010 3:12 AM

I forgot.. there is an error in my visio versions.. because its so easy to snap to the grid, I made my boxes as 10ft wide by 40 ft long etc... thats wrong.

as I discovered when I tried to model in 3d with the boxes I have. This is the first part of the pattern show above. (bottom centre)

(blue is 40ft, dk red is 30 foot, green is 20 foot.)

and remember the purpose of the verts is to provide convection air flow for the interconnected containers. (for those maybe new to this thread or reading later on.)

you can vote with your button for any patterns you like.

Chris
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#1329
In reply to #1322
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/15/2010 8:17 AM

This is looking good, Chris, maybe a little dense...Consider putting your multi-stories to the inside, instead of the outside- create an "artificial slope" on the outside to divert the wind. I like bwire's first picture, without the towers...
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#725

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 9:51 PM

well... here goes.. another crazy idea.

I believe that there is a lot of mountains in Haiti, so you can't just dig foxholes to hide from the hurricanes, and then if you did, it would fill with water.

I don't know what the rate of speed is, but if you started boring tunnels in the mountains or other terrrain above sea level, then perhaps by the time the storms come, there could be a lot of burrowed tunnel to shelter in.

anyone got a spare? what? I said it was crazy... maybe they will discover gold or diamonds or oil or something useful and economically valuable.. who knows?

chris
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#726
In reply to #725

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 10:01 PM

Let's try it. Might be fun.

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#727
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 10:17 PM

Hi Chris,

Neat idea but funds will be prohibitive. TBMs are usually specifically designed for the particular application and conditions of the project. The usual final resting place for a TBM is the tunnel grave it finally dug for itself, deep down, at the end of its path. The cash flow for a tunnel boring project is usually a project nightmare, the capital is outlayed up front, even long before you dig a hole, and your returns dont start to flow until the project which fills the hole is up and running e.g. railway, tollroad, etc And they aren't cheap.

But you will find a few TBMs scattered around the world, buried at the end of their tunnel if you go looking.

What is needed is a large colony of burrow-digging squirrels.
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#728
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 10:23 PM

There's one near the entrance to the 'Chunnel' on the French side. They prob'ly wouldn't lend it to you though, although, thinking, they might. Haiti is 'French'. Any people who are responsible for the brilliant 2CV, just wouldn't leave one lying around in some 'hole'.

Stu

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#729
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 10:48 PM

On second thought, I don't think they want to get underground when Haiti is on a fault, and they are nervous about quakes.

Chris
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#730
In reply to #728

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 10:50 PM

Do you guys really think Chris is serious all the time?

Can anyone put up on this thread a really good map of Haiti?

Since I've had to face that tents, and shipping containers will not hardly touch all the needs for the displaced at 2 million, no matter what we come up with, I'm forced to look at internal displacement, along with suggesting that when a plane or a ship makes aid deliveries, it leaves with passengers.

We need a really good map that shows all the roads, all the major cities, and all the industry groups.

I also want to see where all the airports are, and know who controls them.

The report is that there are 13.

While the country of Haiti has been hit hard, some people there are in control, and making money.

There is at least one University in Haiti, and I need to get them there to work with the other academics.

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#731
In reply to #730

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 11:09 PM

The University was in Port-au.Prince. There is some talk of relocating the capital to the former capital, Dessalines, which is north of the bay, apparently in some mountainous terrain. Some seismologists rate this site as one of the safest in the country.

There is a port on the north of the island that was not damaged excessively in the earthquake, but I do not know what the facilities are- it is known mostly as a port of call for cruise ships.

The government evacuated something like 400,000 people to the countryside, but many of those are migrating back to Port-au-Prince, because that is where the resources used to be.

Of the 13 airfields in Haiti, I think only one could handle jets, but I might be mistaken about that. Many of them are no longer functional, due to earthquake damage...
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#732
In reply to #731

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 11:32 PM

I don't know... perhaps I'm getting a little fatalistic. but perhaps the simplest solution is to move the people if it comes to that... when storm season starts ramping up, and we are given like four days warning, there could be a Dunkirk-like rescue with every available boat committed... to run before the storm.

the big question is... to where?

okay.. I'll tell you my craziest idea.. but it is a couple of years old.. I've never told anyone its so crazy... but what if.. you mount some rocket engines.. Saturn V type... point them to the oncoming side of the hurricane tangentially... (on various islands?) and perform a massive burn for a couple of days... to slow it down. I don't know where to get the fuel or the rockets. But if hurricanes cost a billion dollars damage... you know, maybe its worthwhile.

or maybe it will add more heat to the problem and make it all worse. what do you think?

Chris
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#734
In reply to #732

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 11:41 PM

I think you might make the storm worse. Hurricanes suck thermal energy out of warm surface waters. The warmer the water, the more intense the storm. This is why hurricanes generally run out of steam when they make landfall- they don't have any more heat energy available to drive them.

Evacuating Haiti would be a serious nightmare- it is not like New Orleans or Houston, where you have easy access to refuges away from the storm track. A good size storm would engulf both Haiti and the Dominican Republic. The biggest ship I know of only carried a crew of 5000. How you going to get enough boats for 9,000,000 passengers?

Burt keep the ideas coming. That is what brainstorming is all about. By the way, not many years ago, we dug tunnels by hand. Many of the railroad tunnels in the US and Canada were dug by hand. There used to be an old folk song about John Henry proving he could out dig a steam shovel...
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#745
In reply to #734

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/10/2010 11:32 AM

Think the Queen Mary set a record of something like 10 or maybe even 12 thousand during WWII. Little fuzzy since I get the Queen ships mixed up sometimes.

Pretty sure it was the Queen Mary though.

Was so fast at 30 knots, or maybe 35, they let it run out of convoy since it could out run everything else, especially subs.

I was looking at what I found of the Google maps of Haiti.

Maybe I don't think its a good map, partly cause it might be.

I mean there must be more roads than that!

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#735
In reply to #732

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 11:44 PM

Actually there is a system designed to avert hurricanes using jet engine blasts mounted on barges to create high pressure diversion zones.

It has not been tried out, far as I know, but, well, while not a rocket hydrazine powered plan, has been proposed.

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#736
In reply to #732

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 11:50 PM

I don't know... perhaps I'm getting a little fatalistic. but perhaps the simplest solution is to move the people if it comes to that... when storm season starts ramping up, and we are given like four days warning, there could be a Dunkirk-like rescue with every available boat committed... to run before the storm.

the big question is... to where?

okay.. I'll tell you my craziest idea.. but it is a couple of years old.. I've never told anyone its so crazy... but what if.. you mount some rocket engines.. Saturn V type... point them to the oncoming side of the hurricane tangentially... (on various islands?) and perform a massive burn for a couple of days... to slow it down. I don't know where to get the fuel or the rockets. But if hurricanes cost a billion dollars damage... you know, maybe its worthwhile.

or maybe it will add more heat to the problem and make it all worse. what do you think?

Chris

I think we already have our quota of crazy, by the name of packrat, he's working this side of the street, so cool your jets, or rockets as the case may be.
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#738
In reply to #732

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/10/2010 1:00 AM

Worse - as cyclones are a breakout of warm surface air through a capping layer. Or driven by heat.

But not much worse - as the Saturn's are 'insufficient' against the HP previously absorbed by nature.

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#733
In reply to #731

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 11:37 PM

I've been looking for a good map on google. I've not found one that satisfies my needs yet.

Port cities do tend to survive, no matter what.

Manhattan has burned down twice for instance, and Rome is still around.

Not surprising that people would go back to Port-au-Prince, as at least the UN is paying some to clear areas.

There is that secret thing that is on the thread only once that I've mentioned to you and Chrisg and Garthh...

I'm playing it now.

The magnitude of the problem is great.

There are other places in the world just as bad off, if not worse.

Haiti isn't at the bottom of the corruption index for example.

I do think getting the Clemson U people to work with the Haitian U people would be good for the game as a reality game, and not practice.

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#748
In reply to #730

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/10/2010 2:46 PM

http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/haiti.pdf

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#751
In reply to #730

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/10/2010 3:58 PM

Haiti admin and major population centers

ftp://157.150.195.135/Maps/City%20maps/CapHaitian_30X24.pdf

ftp://157.150.195.135/Maps/City%20maps/FortLiberte_36X44.pdf

ftp://157.150.195.135/Maps/City%20maps/GGoave_48X36.pdf

ftp://157.150.195.135/Maps/City%20maps/Hinche_42X36.pdf

ftp://157.150.195.135/Maps/City%20maps/Jacmel_42X46.pdf

ftp://157.150.195.135/Maps/City%20maps/Leogane_42X42.pdf

ftp://157.150.195.135/Maps/City%20maps/Lescayes_City_Map.pdf

ftp://157.150.195.135/Maps/City%20maps/OUANAMINTHE_36X36.pdf

ftp://157.150.195.135/Maps/City%20maps/PetitGoave_48X36.pdf

ftp://157.150.195.135/Maps/City%20maps/Port%20au%20Prince/

ftp://157.150.195.135/Maps/City%20maps/PortdePaix_50X42.pdf

ftp://157.150.195.135/Maps/City%20maps/U4KCITI0610STM00R_50x36.pdf

ftp://157.150.195.135/Maps/City%20maps/gonaives_42X44.pdf

http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/dpko/minustah.pdf

ftp://157.150.195.135/Maps/Administrative%20maps/M9K0ADMV0704HAT12R_regional%20office.pdf

ftp://157.150.195.135/Maps/Administrative%20maps/S1M0ADMV0801HAT43R_Haiti%20Administrative.pdf

enjoy

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#752
In reply to #751

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/10/2010 4:20 PM

username & password required.

chris

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#755
In reply to #752

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/10/2010 4:33 PM

http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/english/htmain.htm

scroll to Haiti - Earthquake

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#737
In reply to #725

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/10/2010 12:53 AM

I have already told you how to put guaranteed cyclone proof containers in slopes and hills.

It is getting kinda fascinating how concepts just don't get taken in.

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#747
In reply to #737

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/10/2010 2:03 PM

I think we did discuss it. Think really Chris was just having a bit of fun.

Sure enough there are pros and cons to sticking 'em part way into hills.

As far as the idea of it, at this time, it looked to call for cranes, and digging machines for any speed at all. Maybe later.

A good while back I imagined putting a mobile home below ground, in a concrete liner, since that way you wouldn't much have to look at it, since most are so damned ugly.

Course water tables and all might make it impractical, and dependent on sump pumps.

Maybe out West in New Mexico somewhere its been done.

Think we all need a bit of a morale booster on this particular thread.

Funny how it doesn't matter how much you love doing some particular sort of thing, and you did it simply for fun, and how later, since you might have gotten good at it, it turns into work.

Might not feel like it now, but I swear, we're making progress.

Progress through Fun!

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#744

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/10/2010 10:10 AM

That is a great point! I have seen many out-fitted with a.c. units and other amenities.
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#749

I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/10/2010 3:09 PM

I live in S. Florida and we have a large ex-pat community here with strong links to the island. I admire their ability to come to our country and establish a thriving community,with a strong emphasis on family, community and education. There are successful Haitian men and women here in all strata of our society, and they demonstrate a hard-working, practical and pragmatic attitude. They have integrated into the larger Floridan and American society, while still maintaining a sense of their homeland culture.

Again I applaud your efforts in this discussion, but possibly to avoid the appearance of talking down to them or imposing a "foreign" or " first world " solution, might not it be a good idea to include Haitians in the discussion?

There are many doctors, engineers and contractors here , I would think their involvement would be a necessity in taking any of these ideas from the whiteboard phase to actual fruition and implementation.

My two cents worth,

Packrat

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#750
In reply to #749

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/10/2010 3:29 PM

might not it be a good idea to include Haitians in the discussion?

NO.

Same reason you don't ask your kids what they want for Christmas.

We're not 'talking down' to anybody.

We're firming up what we can do for someone in trouble and when we get it right, we'll present it to them.

We're intelligent, caring people and we do know what it takes to best shelter a family in adverse conditions. When we get our resources together, the recipients can either accept or reject as they choose. If they reject, they'll not get any more. Ever.

I'm sick of this 'feelgood' BS.

stu

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#754
In reply to #750

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/10/2010 4:32 PM

might not it be a good idea to include Haitians in the discussion?

I thought they were the true subject of this discussion. Inclusion comes from including and only the Haitians can do that. They do not have the means of communications, it seems, other wise Packrat (a native) would not be the only one trying to be constructive in the matter, at least here in CR4.

Should I consider the water that is leaking when there is a hole in the tank?

That's what it's all about, Ky.

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#893
In reply to #750

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/14/2010 10:11 AM

I'm late in on this convo, so sorry if I blunder.

"Same reason you don't ask your kids what they want for Christmas".

How do you know what they want ? Mine would not want the stuff I got for Christmas (feckin' orange and a hoop). Decisive action is required, but that involves compromise between 'what I want' and 'what I can give'.

At the risk of upsetting American chums, I relate (as best I can recall) a news report during one of ther many African famine disasters. An American reporter was heard to exclaim, "My gawd, some of these people don't even have toilet tissue". Though paraphrased, that was a genuine report. A recent report on Haiti covered the (historical and current) interest in cock fighting. Seems odd that they might do so in current circumstance, but living in hell will lead people toward any escape from the pain of reality they can get.

You and ratty both have valid points, but you are wrong. 'Take it under my terms, or nothing else' is not compassion. It's the kind of philosophy that engenders resentment. Extending a hand and asking "what can I do", is far better than "eat yer bloody porridge that I give you".

Sorry to sound terse, but the approach you espouse explains why America struggles to get on with other cultures. If you think I'm wrong, ponder the Islamic world.

Help, like love, should be unconditional. I don't imply you've said otherwise, but there is a fine line between firm leadership and being dictatorial. Having ground rules does not preclude talking to the ordinary Joe in the street. Ratty's comment was constructive in intent (as I read it), and your response was belligerent/negative.

Feel free to butcher me down, Stuey. I'm trying to catch up on this thread, and have not read the full extent of it yet. Even if you think my comment *****, it will at least keep this thread bubbling. I'm quite sure that you and ratty are coming from the same position - a desire to help.

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#753
In reply to #749

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/10/2010 4:29 PM

Dear Packrat561,

Engaging the people of Haiti has been mentioned, but I guess we don't know how to engage them properly. If you have any suggestions further to what our active promoters have been doing, as to how to attract and engage attention from Haitians, I'm sure it would be appreciated.

On Stuey's note, there is an aspect of this that pertains to absolute survival, and that, as he pointed out, simple objectivity is quite valuable, and perhaps the victims of such trauma are going to be too subjective to effectively solve problems. I don't think anyone is trying to talk down to them. There is a great deal of caring, or we would not be 700 odd posts into this discussion.

cheers,

Chris
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#756
In reply to #753

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/10/2010 5:19 PM

I'm attempting to get the Clemson U people to open or reopen communications with the academics at Haiti State University. Attempts to get the Permanent Representative of the Republic of Haiti, Mr. Leo Merores to acknowledge the Shipping Container Shelter option in the mix, do not so far seem successful.

Attempts to get my local Congressman to provide tenured leadership that might prevail some with USAID, have not yet provided us any morale boosting news.

More bad news from Haiti pours in via Smartbrief reports compiled by the UN Foundation.

Mr. Martin who has built a school in Haiti, does say the Haitians he worked with were very impressive.

The CR4 announcement has been taken down.

Still we have done much more than we normally do outside of this forum.

I am aware that it does take a bit more time to get things to happen than any of us think rational.

Frankly I think we will see that our efforts will be fruitful.

I've had stories I wrote published in editions of 300 thousand, and hardly got more than a paycheck for the work. My wife had read articles I'd written long before I met her.

My point is that just because nobody has shown up and said thanks, don't think we are not having an effect.

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#757
In reply to #753

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/10/2010 5:27 PM

Chris,

I sent Russell an email about a Pierre Cote who lives in Port Au Prince and is on Twitter asking for help and he is soon going to have a site for requests etc.

Russell has passed this onto Professor Martha Skinner at Clemson...she speaks fluent french.

Lets see how this goes.

Washington still closed due to snow, so nothing back from USAID or FEMA, my reps there apologized (they are on the Hill but not the agency workers) and will ensure that as soon as they return we should get a response to the last emails sent.

Note: It is raining in Haiti now and about three hours ago they had received 6" in 4 hours in the mountains...coming down the ravines and overflowing a little. (what happens in the really rainy season to come and all the debris is still there?)

How about taking containers and digging a series of wide/big trenches through the city where the streams are and use them as conduits for the flow to the ocean...remove the doors and weld closed...nice twin tunnels (leave about three feet above ground) near the upper sections of the streams make a big catch basin also of containers partially buried...would reduce local flooding and channel the water?

there is a huge 6 foot wide pipe trench digger in Oklahoma (cuts through rock at the rate of 150 ft / hr and 18 ft deep trench.....how rocky is Port Au Prince?) made by FMC, Caterpillar/O&K...no need to go this deep either, say 5 to 6 feet most.

Geoff Daly NH

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#758
In reply to #757

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/10/2010 7:30 PM

Hi Geoff,

good thinking about the trenches (similar to and idea I put on way back) but here is another product idea that, delivered in sufficient quantity, could help them.

3 million people homeless facing a hurricanes, flooding, mudslides, and water/food/medical shortages... it could be one of the biggest disasters ever. infrastructure gone... mayhem.

we can't move enough shipping containers in time, and unload them and position them, any more than we can move 3 million people elsewhere. trenches and anchors may be the only way to save a few.

I don't know. without millions of people acting in concert to save them, I don't know what will happen.

Chris
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#760
In reply to #758

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/10/2010 10:29 PM

Wasting shelter on drainage also requires you cut out the ends - also requires you tie up your lifting and site preparation equipment on a massive scale.

----------------------

Doing earthworks in the rain is near impossible

A trencher of the suggested magnitude?

Dismantling, shipping, reassembling and siting? allow months.

Also requires you clear and extensively prepare the route - likely de-homing more.

It still could not work in rain of the volumes likely.

It still will slide in mud.

You do remove any vegetation and root systems stabilizing the soil.

(cutting bamboo does not remove the root systems)

--------------

You have about 750,000 able bodied contributers of some level of labor available per 1 million homeless. What they need is the boxes with basic mods and tarps, all else they have the smarts and ability to cause.

(thank you Pack rat)

------------------

You do not bury a container in steep ground - this is a foolish act and extrapolation of the suggestion - which is about the rural and undulating metropolitan installation case and equipment list to do so.

To wit - you can't just dump a container on any sort of slope - as enough rain or a tremor will see it slide or topple - with 'new results' for those in the vicinity.

Equally - this rain will cause many damaged building to collapse.

Container or tent down slope of one? tough choice?

(I.e factoring in the "bleeding obvious" ahead of spurious is a "Think Tank" discipline)

-------------------

I am not surprised "The CR4 announcement has been taken down."

Since that went up - it's been like watching Tag-team-ego-Pin-ball - not engineers evaluating and reflecting before contributing.

In the latter category we have Stueys skids - now even better in rain? - Johnevans7, on confirmation on container realities and Dominican stocks - bamboo - useful data from bwire (in response to Trans questions as he beavers away trying to solve the Haiti relevant).

Apologies to any one I've missed, but it is hard to spot the facts amongst the flippers, bounces and scoring chimes.

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#761
In reply to #760

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/10/2010 11:18 PM

Kyzine,

I don't know where i fit in the scheme of things.. but I'll still poke away at this. I do hope that we get some input from people on the ground or in-the-know about Haiti's current status and conditions.

As to the mudslide issues, you are very right. If one HAD to put containers on hills, because there is no where else to put them, then I imagine it possible to make a quick foundation (2 actually), from slicing a container and inverting it.. and possibly adding stakes if possible.

but I have no experience with mud in this regard.

Chris
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#766
In reply to #761

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/11/2010 1:30 AM

Chris - I'm in no doubt that your intentions/abilities are positive and useful.

The thing that seems to trip things up around here of late is "western first world thinking"

In the sketch presented, it seems the container entrance is pointing 'up-slope'.

This is like the Californian style found in the hills (below a paved and drained roadway).

From that "road datum", comes the need to provide an elevating structure.

Out of that approach comes a multitude of expensive "not fall off the hill" engineering that sometimes works if the hill does not fall off itself, or masses of mud do not flow in the front door.

Or you have 'heard and stayed' with a comment in riposte to my description of how to install a container on a slope - co-incidentally making it 'blow away proof' and 'insulated'.

Which was dug in ass first and covered - spare dirt forms an apron.

I did not say "to avoid all California experience and vulnerability problems" as to me they are "obvious" as they are in your sketch - should it rain 'uphill'.

Experience;

Clearly by my post content I have practical experience in this container installation technique.

But to spell it out;

I'm experience in earthworks, both rural and commercial and am also a competent operator of the usual equipment (loaders, excavators, dozer's, drills, drivers, trucks, cranes, travel towers, hoists, compactors - exception is the road grader), also drainage, surveying, marking out and volumes quantities and machine time/labor estimates.......

I also know that cutting a container is difficult and in this context a waste of resources and a perfectly good abode and would have virtually zero stability without significant concrete input.

So with a bit of "it's not California" thought - do you now see this sketch differently?

Now Time Wise - given this is substantially alluvial soil and relatively free of big floaters (rocks), 1 say 20 ton excavator would likely plant and finish 2 containers per ordinary "western working" day.

So maybe 6 per long day if lots of men with stamping feet and shoves are in the mix for back filling and apron work.

How does this compare with other approaches and concrete curing delays?

I also doubt you could cut a container in a day - short of explosives - and you still need a crane or the excavator to separate the bits place them.

Or the trick for you is to figure out what is overall likely to fit the Haiti situation and draw that up for comment.

So - you did a chimney concept that I mentioned was good/necessary in a post in burial (as the simple rear vent would be useless).

Also there is a need for light - particularly on a 40 footer. So you need a concept that provides a stub or adapter for 'tubes' to suit a range of 'new ground levels' - that have rain hats - and can be light or ventilation or cooking flues - all out of commonly available 'junk' - (maybe even big bamboo would do).

In the tarp context - much of my thinking is from 'outdoor living' practiced in 'native village societies' - also that these people are 'under cover shy' due to the next tremor.

These people are smart enough to furl as store their tarp, smart enough to know a storm is coming, smart enough to assess the severity.

Smart enough to make split bamboo arches or post and rail tarp support. what the tarps need is the proper design and sewing so thy can be used for shelter and/or catchment. these people are smart enough to work out what mode when - if the modes are designed in.

And these tarps need a mosquito resistant skirt and attachment system - I've said shade cloth - as I know it works for that and as a water filter and as a driving rain reducer and as both a warmth retainer and as ventilation with quite good flying object resistance through to wind blown sand barrier.

Moving containers; This is 'no rules' 3rd world - put them on the truck sideways.

3 per 24 foot tray & dead easy to tip off at the site by manpower.

(get the idea on: "not 1st world Architectural master pieces")

(and Trans; you can bet these folk will make them "not so ugly" - in time)

I.e. Chris; there is plenty for you to do as Presenter of the Solutions for Haiti - that most 'readers' will evaluate this threads 'smarts' by.

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#771
In reply to #766

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/11/2010 2:14 AM

thank you. GA. all my experiences with containers are relatively ideal, with all the right tools.. on level ground, in good weather... I acknowledge your experience and knowledge in this regard as superior.

Chris
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#773
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Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/11/2010 2:36 AM

Sounds like the soil conditions are typical of the wet tropics.

All hill slopes must be regarded as being soil close to it's angle of repose - basically a land slip waiting to happen.

Rocks in hills are usually covered by a layer of soil as the tropics weathers rock at quite a rate. Bare rock is less common than in temperate climates.

When doing foundations, use a raft on level ground or some sort of pile on slopes.

If possible, leave a space under a structure on sloping ground so that small mud slides can pass under.

The locals will be familiar with these conditions, which is why packrat's enjoinder to consult them is wise.

We can raise possibilities and probable solutions. If the bureaucrats get out of the way, the locals can evaluate what works in their situation and how our good ideas can be made workable in their conditions.

It would be nice if we could get some feedback from them so our "think tank" abilities can be put to best use.
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#768
In reply to #761

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/11/2010 1:51 AM

Chris mud doesn't start to slide at the top of the soil layer it may break loose several feet below the foundation.

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/howstuffworks/228-how-mudslides-work-video.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEbYpts0Onw

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#775
In reply to #768

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/11/2010 3:32 AM

Good one bwire - especially the full grown trees going down hill

I assume the naked patch, camera right was a previous event.

All a bit steep to be putting containers in though.

Bit steep for an excavator too - a lot of time and effort in clawing up and platforming - just get to dig.

Liked the Nitro comment too.

I see my posts are still invisible to some;

"Anyone got some ideas for substructure for draping-easy removal etc.

Saves on containers for use for shelter instead."

Arrrrgggggggggggaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh!

------------------------

To Trans; if it seemed I was inferring some conflict between you two - I wasn't. The list was of the positive input lot. Doesn't mean or not mean "agreeing" or "not agreeing" - just means relevant and useful data.

On "culls" - eons ago I put what was just about a sieve in the ground.

First a layer of builders plastic sheeting over - as you usually do anyway, (as second hand container is second hand) - then a few buckets of fines - then that spread and domed slightly - another layer of plastic - more fines and then the usual back-fill and bucket tamping.

It turned out to be so good, the two layer approach has become standard practice.

But if you don't have the plastic, it wouldn't be the end of the world as these live-in containers are not locked stores, but mostly open, so ventilated and would be set to self drain.

Point being; "culls" could be perfectly good as in earth houses.

On the "reversals" we have all had a few as data came in.

I was on the point of abandoning the spaced and tarp idea, due to imported truss needs and/or local adapting; when along came bamboo.

Similarly it changes the inflatable pool configuration to outside the covered living area. Changes the shading and tieing off/ballasting approach.

Most importantly, in my way of thinking; it changes the project psychology to 'owner involvement' - not 'charity', or 'foreign imposed/dictated'.

We want 750,000/million helpers not - haters - to get this done - if we get a shot at it.

I agree a good 'gift' right now would be long handled spades for men, short for women and boys + rakes and fencing bars.

6 Foot x 1" or 1.25" hex

I.e good stuff - not toys and some round nose ones for post holes and drainage.

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#777
In reply to #761

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/11/2010 8:52 AM

I suggest that we not even think about placing containers on hills let alone of slopes great than 8 to 10 % because of the sliding factor and mudslides problems. Also, I would forgot about fancy foundations and stacking the containers, as that will increase the size of required concrete foundation anchors and strapping.

The main thing is to anchor the containers down with either concrete pads or buried concrete anchor/strapping system. This is absolutely necessary to prevent Hurricane force winds from moving and tossing the containers. There are HUGE forces involved here: First, the obvious horizontal oriented wind forces acting on the container vertical walls windward (positive force) and leeward (neg. force .....ie, suction). and second, the wind forces acting normally on the entire roof surface is negative (suction) force. The result of these forces will be (1). container sliding along ground surface, and (2). lifting of the container off the ground and basically tossing it.....you don't want to be inside one or even near one when this happens.

I've already provided the calculations for the wind forces acting on the typical 40 foot long container herein, so why do I still see people lately stating in their posts that we don't need foundations to anchor the containers down to the ground!!!!????? I suggest that you folks go back and re-read many of my earlier posts.

Chris, great idea about using basically unfit containers (meant for scrap?) for drainage purposes. GA, but not now in time of emergency as you need to:

1). Conduct walk through and intial engineering routing assessment throughout the major populations centers in order to define possible storm sewer routings, then define where ground and aerial surveys are to be conducted. It takes time to do this and very expensive and labour intensive. You also have to set ground control points throughout to make any of the flown aerial surveys even valid or even close!

2). Then there's the need to clean-out the rubble even before the surveys can be conducted.

3). You need to have the surveys for planning and design purposes.....LINE AND GRADE is paramount.

4). begin design phase......establish final routings, perform runoff calculations and then hydraulic comps.

5). Prepare final construction plans and specs......problem is "who is administering the Contract as well as acting as the Engineer of Record"?????? Construction Engineer? Who's paying for the Work????????? Is the Work to be bid or awarded on an emergency/contingency basis????? There's lots of political questions to be answered, and I dare say they had all be chosen and resolved before any planning, surveying and engineering work is even contemplated. Maybe this should be #1 in this listing?????

6). Absolutely no work contemplated during the rainy seasons! Look at what happened to the French when they tried to build the Panama Canal before the USA took over....of course we don't have to deal with Yellow Fever now days like they did back then....thing is why fight the rain and flooding when you have don't have to? You'd need to bring in so much heavy equipment and pumps that Haiti would look like the Saudi seaports during Desert Shield back in 1990 until the air war and Desert Storm started in early 1991......and to even try to work in the monsoons is pure craziness and like shoveling sh-t against the tide.....a sure waste of time, effort, manpower, equipment and $$$$$.

7). In the long run, best to concrete line the interior walls of the container storm sewers and the fines, especially sand, will abrade the steel. Also, you want to do this to fight corrosion. Also, plastic wrapping the exterior of the containers will be a must to prevent extensive corrosion of the containers plus their connections (this includes all welds).

Just a short blurb and 2 US Cents added for measure......

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#779
In reply to #777

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/11/2010 11:04 AM

excellent!

Chris
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#762
In reply to #760

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/10/2010 11:36 PM

I agree with you as far as using the containers as they are for drainage purposes, though maybe later along the way, some of the culls may be useful if the sides are cut out and rolled into pipes.

I think we may be a ways out on that.

I've reversed myself a few times on this thread, and even had to make a few corrections, or clarifications.

I see value in the bamboo, and know that the roots stay in place, but still would rather see it grow above into some bit of forest like copses in light of how it made such a difference to the events in New Orleans that the wetlands had been so drained and mismanaged, so that there was little to mitigate the winds. Scientific American predicted very accurately what would happen to New Orleans if a Hurricane hit, and spoke of that factor.

One notable reversal on my part, was that I predicted that the thread would be nothing but another pointless discussion, entirely internal to CR4, and then turned around and actively worked to do something more with it than normal.

bwire's known me a long time. I think our relationship can handle some conflict, or misunderstandings even.

At any rate, CR4 is an ego and ideologically driven place. There sure isn't any money in it, and nobody is forced to be here.

I have gone on to thinking of the whole nation and all factors as if it was a War Game, though it is pretty serious for those real people affected by the realities we are discussing.

I swear we are all going to have reasons to be proud together of this work, if for no other reason that we tried just this once, to do something out there in the real world.

The real Weird World.

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#765
In reply to #760

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/11/2010 1:24 AM

Doing earthworks in the rain is near impossible

A trencher of the suggested magnitude?

Needs a little nitro eh? Open a trench BOOM!

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#770
In reply to #765

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/11/2010 2:08 AM

bangalores! (wwII pipe bomb for creating instant trenches)(shown in "Saving Private Ryan")
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#776
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Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/11/2010 3:37 AM
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#763
In reply to #758

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/11/2010 12:18 AM

Chris,

Excellent idea.

I saw this on I think Discovery Channel several years ago. Probably very easily activated by any group on the ground when shown how...and back-hoes are present on the isalnd.....just need to be marshalled onto the island and transitioned to Haiti people.

Good idea and could be draped over a preform frame and allowed to set then go onto the next one etc etc.....note they may need a second small over cover to have an airgap for cooling effect....will need some tie downs of some sort.

Anyone got some ideas for substructure for draping-easy removal etc.

Saves on containers for use for shelter instead.

Geoff Daly NH

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#784
In reply to #758

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/11/2010 12:25 PM

Chris.

I have followed the Concrete Canvas people since 2003/04 and your suggestion is a very valid/brilliant idea for the streams/river lining and building up an embankment...I know it may end up looking like some of the LA storm run-off canals...but better than flooding the surround areas.

I did in fact speak with Will early this morning and he is looking into the material further for use we feel it can used for in Haiti and similar to there shelter structures they build for the MOD in the UK...also has some other ideas involved....set up a plant in US, you got a cc on this along with Dick, Richard, Doug/Martha... need Ky and Kyzine's email addresses as well, have stuey's

So again CR4 community has put forward another good intermmediate idea instead of tents before containers....good thinking/thought prrcess again, outside the box Heh CaptMossie.

Geoff Daly NH

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#764
In reply to #757

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/11/2010 1:19 AM

Wasn't there talk of a water shortage but ya want to give the rain away? Why not direct to a holding area and let the mud settle?
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#767
In reply to #764

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/11/2010 1:36 AM

Nice point, Guest.

I do think one of the most valuable hand tools the Haitians might be given these days are shovels.

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#769
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Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/11/2010 2:03 AM

I was thinking so too, a hole might be good shelter in a big wind...

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#774
In reply to #769

Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/11/2010 2:41 AM

...a hole might be good shelter in a big wind

Unless it's raining or an earthquake comes.

The rainfall during a cyclone (hurricane) can be unbelievably heavy. Nice if you are inside in a cosy (and strong) house, but no fun if outside or in a trench.
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#788
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Re: I admire your altruistic endeavours on behalf of The Haitians, but,,,

02/11/2010 3:25 PM

I've been blown head over heels by wind while wishing for a hole to crawl into. I've crawled into a ditch teeming with who knows what in a cyclonic downpour an proceeded into the culvert spewing 8" of water to escape flying debris.

If the authorities don't get there ducks in a row a good shovel maybe best for many.

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#759

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/10/2010 10:03 PM

Dear all,

It was not my intention to appear critical of anyone's efforts in this forum, nor question their motivation.

My impression of engineers , is that a primary guiding canon is the efficient use of resources. Creating something and plopping it down amongst a group of disorganized, traumatized people and presenting them with a fait accompli, might not be the best approach.

I have not read all the posts in this thread , but I have noted others, Trans for one, have raised the point that other's perception of American's motives can be different than our own.

Given our history of armed intervention, both overt and covert, in the Caribbean Basin,their misgivings can be understood. I'm not debating the right or wrong of our actions in the past, what I am definitively saying is , it would be foolish, counterproductive and an inefficient use of resources, to ignore this.

There are professionals,yes, engineers even, not all are manual laborers, of Haitian descent in the United States,; there are Haitians here that have actually touched a container, not just read about them in Reader's Digest, " I am Joe's Container";they also have a collective knowledge of the distribution of supplies in Haiti, it might be an advantage to utilize the existing middlemen and the go to people who are on the ground now and familiar with local people and conditions; looking at maps is helpful , but it's not going to tell you who the person is that can actually organize the manpower to Fitz Caraldo a container to where best use can be made of it.

I believe that any possibly successful effort is going to rely heavily on local manpower; the ports I am familiar with in the United States rely on a lot of machinery to move containers around on surfaces that are practically billiard table flat. Is there a lot of USABLE machinery available in Haiti now? Are there relatively flat areas available, of sufficient size to even stage the equipment needed to move the quantity of container containers being bandied about? I don't know , but there's probably a Bi-lingual Haitian here that does know.

The comment about not asking our kids what they want for Christmas , is a good one ,if you include thinking about the possibility that the "kids" might actually reject the gift and prefer the box it came in.

I'm just sayin',

Packrat

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#772
In reply to #759

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 2:20 AM

Does anyone know if there is any mining in Haiti?

Mines usually have large machines which dig dirt at an unbelievable rate.

If available and properly organized in it's use, this could solve a lot of problems.

Probably not completely on topic but relevant to getting these containers used and giving these poor people some sort of chance.
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#782
In reply to #772

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 11:53 AM

On the un.int/wcm/content/site/haiti/, or simply on the UN Haiti site, Bauxite, Copper, Calcium Carbonate, Gold and Marble, are listed as resources.

Where the mines are, & who owns them is not made clear.

Certainly whomever is mining these resources, ought to be making some money, and I feel International contributions towards reconstruction and reform of Haiti would advance if whatever segments of the society had some means would step up and make some contributions towards the well fare of their own people.

It has not been unusual for Multinational Corporations working in poor countries, such as Haiti to have control of those nations most valuable resources, and how much of this might be the case in Haiti, is not yet known to me.

That is sort of an answer to your question. I am hoping to get more information concerning mining of the resources listed for different reasons than yours.

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#783
In reply to #782

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 12:01 PM

When thinking about mining resources available in Haiti, it may be wise to consider that, in many parts of the world there are mine complexes for these same resources that are larger than the entire country of Haiti. In other words, don't over-estimate the value of the natural resources...
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#792
In reply to #782

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 4:12 PM

Certainly whomever is mining these resources, ought to be making some money, and I feel International contributions towards reconstruction and reform of Haiti would advance if whatever segments of the society had some means would step up and make some contributions towards the well fare of their own people.

Don't count on it...
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#807
In reply to #782

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 8:05 PM

Bauxite will be open cut and large scale so will have large excavators and dump trucks.

Copper is probably open cut and also large scale.

CaCO3 will probably not be particularly large scale but will have dump trucks and loaders.

Gold and marble are likely to be reasonably small so won't have large amount of heavy machinery, but loaders and trucks will be there.

The loaders and dump trucks will be useful for clearing and rebuilding roads to a good enough standard to allow the heavy machinery to be moved to where it is needed.

The machinery used in these mines is awesome and can really shift serious amounts of dirt and rock.

If that becomes available, reconstruction of infrastructure and clearing can be sped up immensely.
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#780

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 11:14 AM

To All Contributors to This Thread:

We are putting together a synopsis of this forum thread for wider dissemination, and would like to include acknowledgements for participation and contribution. We feel the ideas might carry more weight if actual identities were used, rather than on line "handles". If you would like to be included in the list of contributors, please send me by private message:

Your Name (as you would like it to appear in the credits)

Title (i.e, PhD, PE, etc.) as you would like it to appear in the credits

Associations (i.e., employer, etc.), only those that you would like to see in the credits

Your on-line handle will not be publicly associated with the published credit list.

Thanks.
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#785

oprah's book club, suggested reading

02/11/2010 12:42 PM

Just to get a feel for the somewhat recent mindset in Haiti, try Graham Greene's, " The Comedians".

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#786

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 2:22 PM

Thanks a lot Chris. We finally get to see some of the Clemson U designs.

Right colorful they are.

Far as the plastic panel tent like structures out of Ottawa, they look alright, and the price is competitive.

Wonder how many they have ready to go?

Shipping Containers are still looking very viable short term and long term with all the competitive designs we have reviewed.

In fact the Plastic and Aluminum designs you put up hardly pretend to any great life in comparison to the expectations for steel.

I sort of hate it that in the body of some of the copy there is this look towards the Dominican Republic for wood. One of the reasons the Dominican Republic is in so much better shape than Haiti, is specifically because cutting down all their trees has been prevented by them.

Frankly I'm not wild about the implied suggestion that the Dominican Republic ought to change their policies because Haiti didn't have the foresight they seem to have had.

Another way of putting that is I am for fixing up Haiti as much as possible, but am not for destroying the entire island to do it.

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#787
In reply to #786

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 3:00 PM

my thinking is that they should be able to be sealed up, and from what I see, those open-air designs will be grabbed by hurricanes and tossed. I think they need to have closable windows, or shutters, so they can be sealed. No disrespect to Clemson intended, but this design seems to not regard that 150 mph winds will be directed at these shelters. Shelter must first do one thing, protect the inhabitants from the elements. imho.

I was really commenting on the 'cubist' style of putting together the tubular domes up top, open sided containers, and garish colors. it looks very whimsical, and not the serious tone required imho to impress the Haitians.

Chris
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#789

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 3:33 PM

Chris, thanks for the eye-opening articles. Okay, where are the journalists when you need them, out for coffee????

I say aim for Habitat for Humanity and Former President Jimmy Carter since he and his wife are heavily involved with that organization.

Chris, I'll have to get back to you later about the wind forces acting on a group of containers connected somehow......problem, if you receive one or two containers with damaged connector pins then your idea is sunk. I'd feel much safer from a professional and structural engineering standpoint strapping down each container individually....so there is redundancy.....we all know that some people will take shortcuts and not strap down a container. Also, not a good idea counting ther weight of bodies inside because you can't count on every container being flow....some will have more and some will have less. I just like having strong enough Factors of Safety.....a very fir believer in them and reason why I've never had my Professional Engineering Insurance yanked into court or claimed against in all of these years practicing.

Geoff, that's a good one....Chris' thinking outside the box!!!!

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#790

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 3:46 PM

CALL OPRAH!!!!!!!

Does anyone have a contact person working for or friends with Oprah?????? She one powerful power broker and has the eyes of the QT Public, the various media and politicians from around the world on her all of the time.

If you want things done by the various parties, including the President, you only have to get the ear of Oprah and it'll get done if she finds that the request is a valid one, especially with humanitarian concerns.

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#793
In reply to #790

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 4:14 PM

I'll see if I can find anybody in that loop, as far as Oprah is concerned.

Not likely to achieve any great success.

Dick Strawbridge of Geoff's recommends likely best this Thread has got going as far as TV personalities.

You've ripped into me plenty. Make a call yourself. Think the government is hard to deal with, try show business.

Only people who can push them around really are Teamsters, and get a Teamster in Chicago to call Oprah, and I'll bet you something right will happen.

I might know about living in tents from life as either a Boy Scout or poor, but I know the Teamsters can get things done.

(They thought about killing me, but putting me out of business was good enough.)

Punks and snow in Washington has monkeyed progress we were making.

It's a reality skew of all we do, that weather strikes.

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#794
In reply to #790

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 4:20 PM

CALL OPRAH!!!!!!!

"O Island" (formally known as Haiti) has opened its first Casino were the profits go to rebuilding and restructuring of countries devastated by natural catastrophes. Queen Oprah has donated her fortune to the underprivileged and is on a bamboo sprout diet. Her HQ is open to any one who wants to apply for a job and is supplied with food, tools and materials before they leave.

The indigenous people either work in the casino or in the factory that turns swords to plowshares. The original rulers have found refuge in the countries were they had stashed their fortunes. They travel on diplomatic passports and are planing a revolution somewhere. Depending on the transport of the weapons they will need for this, which takes a lot of bribes, they need to pull it off in time so once the underlings find out that it is all to late, it is up to us to fix it.

It is like blaming a tooth for its decay.

get the ear of Oprah and it'll get done if she finds that the request is a valid one, especially with humanitarian concerns.

In you dreams Mate, in your dreams. I have seen it done many times before, no, not the generous celebrities but the ruthlessness of politics.

Hope all goes well, Ky.

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#796
In reply to #790

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 4:47 PM

Oprah would probably want a picture.

Say a "before and after" on a Haiti site.

I noticed the plastic house seemed to be on a substantial concrete plinth.

Seems to me if that's counted in the system, it's not 'as claimed', nor an advance on a steel frame farm kit building. Which when lined are quite habitable, energy efficient, cyclone and quake resistant.

However; Haiti site physicals;

Much seems undulating terrain.

More sites; SLIDESHOW: Port-au-Prince after the quake

A fairly central set of links Special coverage

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#815

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 10:50 PM

Chris,

you got the email reply to Ky.

Lets see what happens tomorrow...right now it is raining very heavily in Haiti.

General Cree I understand has taken overall charge at the request of the Haitian President just after President Clinton was flown out to NY. Lots of rain damage occurring and people in danger again.

Will know more in awhile...all of CR4 communities eforts and contacts etc seems to be paying off...someone see's the benefit in the use of shipping containers along with others who have expounded the same.

Geoff Daly NH

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#817

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/12/2010 12:45 AM

To all who have contributed to this CR4 posting thread...great work,

Seems we have along with a number who have had contact or been contacted by various community members on the use of shipping containers, these past weeks has started to pay off.

We now have a response that has now come directly from the Haitian President to two persons, Allan Maddon (Atlanta GA) & Ms Corey Rubin (in NY) of GlobalCon.

Tonight I and several others have spent hours on conference calls going over a strategy of how to mobilize and get going in Haiti. Precipitated by President Clintons sudden return to NY and straight into hospital with cardiac problems.

Together with a sudden increase in rain, which is weeks early and increas of flooding.

General Cree the US Army commander now on the ground has been requested and to be fully confirmed, assumed total command of all NGO activity etc in Haiti.

A full plan of action has been sent to the President of Haiti as requested, for approval and funding for a grouped contingent of people from all areas, who have contributed to the finally recognized use of shipping cotainers now on the ground in Haiti and more to come. This action is to take place over the next few days with full mobilzation by end of next week.

The current agencies will have no expected involvement what so ever, no matter how much they squell...its other peoples sand box now.

So the question now is, I have been requested will everyone who has contributed please email me there curriculum and experise/qualifications. As everyone involved is going to be publically recognized for all the efforts put in by the CR4 Community.

Send too:- geoffdaly@mkd-usa.com,

Nothing will be released publically untill everyone has approved of the release and its format and also from GlobalSpec who have so graciously allowed this to happen.

To Chris Leonard please advise who from GlobalSpec should be included in this recognition by the Haitian government and hopefully President Obama.

Great work guys if this all comes together in the next few days....what an achievment over adversity and bureuacratic bumblings with an outdated OP's manual/playbook. We all thought outside the box and did not restrain ourselves through out this process..brilliant.

Geoff Daly NH

PS; Corey and Allan want people from the CR4 community if they are available to be there as well...funding is there for flights, shelter/food and compensation if you are interested..no idea of compensation level at this time.

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#820
In reply to #817

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/12/2010 1:21 AM

Thank you for putting in this great effort Geoff.

It is encouraging to say the least. I will get on to my "partners" and see what can be done to speed things up. They will read this and will know that if push comes to shove us being united on this will give us enormous mass. Evaluation takes time and shortcuts can take lives so one has to be on the safe side, what ever the next steps might be.

It will not be easy but if we all carry our weights we should be able to help and not only Haitians but many other people that end up being victims of mother natures bad tempers.

The lead times are very tight and I mean very. Roughly 70 days and the rains will start like they are here (Northern Australia) now. I would not send my dog outside, if I had one.

I think we all know that there is no time to waste because these poor people are really having a hard time and early rain is the worst that could have happened.

The last will be the first.

On the case as always, thanks again, Ky,

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#824
In reply to #820

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/12/2010 7:24 AM

Ky,

it has already started and thats why my posting appeared last night after all the conference calls.

The Haitian people are all ready this morning feeling the affects of the last three days of now nearly 17" of rain.

If you get the BBC4 radio they have an on ground report according to Johnevans7. I will copy and post later.

Geoff Daly NH

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#825

non- powered tools to modify Shipping Containers for Housing

02/12/2010 9:33 AM

As Kyzine has pointed out in previous posts, hand tools,( shovels, spades, Johnson bars, sledge hammers, etc,) are going to be in demand due to scarcity of power and access for machinery.

Does anyone know of a shear -type tool , human powered that could be utilized to cut the enormous amount of holes ,( ventilation, illumination, sanitation, etc.) that are going to be required to make this work. I have seen some referred to as hooligan tools for rescue work, but I am unsure if they would be suitable for this purpose.

Based on my limited experience cutting holes in containers with powered equipment, I can say it's a lot tougher than one would think. Without adequate power available, it might come down to teams of workers with hammers and cold chisels.

It would be unconscionable to have this grind to a halt ,simply because of a lack of simple tools. You all have done an admirable job of coming up with the big picture concept, but there's a need to start delegating some of the detail work to get this to happen as efficiently as possible given the circumstances and conditions.

Sumpin' to think about.

I'm just sayin'

Packrat

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#826
In reply to #825

Re: non- powered tools to modify Shipping Containers for Housing

02/12/2010 9:46 AM

Hello Packrat;

Welcome to the blog and offering solutions and questions.

We addressed this "Can-opener" issue previously in the blog. Since a majority of th shipping containers are fabricated of high tensile strength CORTEN steel (weathering steel) you're going to have to cut holes with: plasma torches (expensive due to consumables lifespan), oxy torches, circular saws with metal cutting blades (will need a portable gen-set for electrical power) or gas-powered chop-saws w/ metal cutting blades.

I'm afraid hand-tools may be a huge waste of time and energy, as the locals will be there trying to cut any hole for a long time.....

Nice to see that someone is thinking about these issues once again just as a reminder to all what is in store for us once our feet hit the ground running in Haiti....

Have a great sunny day!

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#827
In reply to #826

Re: non- powered tools to modify Shipping Containers for Housing

02/12/2010 10:18 AM

Cap'n Moosie,

Thanks for your reply.

I was thinkin' the power and equipment might be more readily available at the initial unloading point, but less so at the actual emplacement sites. I think to make this work , given the condition and available resources, field- expedient , point of emplacement modifications are going to be absolutely necessary. Creating an enormous bottleneck/logjam at one venue is going to slow the effort. Wouldn't a de-centralized effort be best . The initial staging area is going to be instantly overloaded if all work has to be done on one site. It would seem that a distributed workload would lend itself to alleviating this.

I'm sure if a manual cutting tool with compound advantage design doesn't exist now , someone like Yusef could come up with a design.

I have never been to Haiti , but I'm guessin' the plasma torches with skilled operators to tasks ratio is not encouraging.

I'm just sayin',

Packrat

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#828
In reply to #825

Re: non- powered tools to modify Shipping Containers for Housing

02/12/2010 10:22 AM

Packrat561,

Yes it is a GreenLee hole cutting tool...drill about 5/8 hole and place punch dies either side and use ratchet to close shut and cuts hole...they make dies up to 12" dia and will cut CorTen steel if they know use....coat the cutting edges.

Best ground tool for digging is a Matock used by the forestory guys on a fire line, there are also hand hole auger screw diggers...does need three people two to hold the auger and one to turn the ratchetting bar (like they use on turn buckles).

There will be small generators for some power tools even the ones which have built in welding machines...like you see on trucks doing off-road construction repairs..can generate upto 20,000 watts at either 110 or 220 volt single phase and diesel driven now.

Geoff Daly NH

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#830
In reply to #828

Re: non- powered tools to modify Shipping Containers for Housing

02/12/2010 10:46 AM

Got a reference on that GreenLee hole cutter Geoff.

Had a look and could only find 6" x 10 gauge mild steel capacity

Other question; have GreenLee said it can do corrugated container material?

Generally these things only do flat sheet and get hydraulic at over 4" diameter.

Just checking I & T's

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#831
In reply to #830

Re: non- powered tools to modify Shipping Containers for Housing

02/12/2010 10:52 AM

I believe the Greenlee hydraulic unit will work- uses a hand-operated hydraulic ram...
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#834
In reply to #830

Re: non- powered tools to modify Shipping Containers for Housing

02/12/2010 11:35 AM

Typical container corrugated flat angles are having about 4" flat area so may restrict holes, 4" is enough anyway or make two - three 4" holes side by side and fit ventilation collector to it leaving the untrimmed points.

A 3/4" to 1/2" hand torque multiplier may reduce costs considering a large labor pool is available.

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#832
In reply to #828

Re: non- powered tools to modify Shipping Containers for Housing

02/12/2010 11:22 AM

Greenlee tool sounds useful for the circular holes required, but from my experience with human habitable structures , there's going to be a need for something to cut square and rectangular holes. If some of this work is going to be accomplished out in the sticks, boondocks, hinterland rural areas, it would seem to me it would be a logistical nightmare to provide adequate quantities of power equipment to where it would be needed. I'm keeping in mind that Haiti is at the far and narrow end of the logistics funnel. If one is going to keep this moving in a timely manner, best use of the manpower available with the skill sets they have, should be a fundamental consideration.

Power tools= additional logistics burden; fuel, other consumables and trained operators; need for additional security for personnel and equipment.

Partial solution= hand tools, instructional workshops, distributed workload.

How many certified plasma torch operators are there in the relief pipeline now?

Instead of shipping trained operators with their attendant infrastructure demands, consider easing the workload and timeline burden by making use of a valuable asset on the ground now in Haiti; which is a surplus of manpower with adequate skills.

I don't think it matters if a bunch of workers are tediously modifying a container, what if it takes them a little while.

They would be actively involved in adding value and improving their situation, with observable concrete results, the psychological benefit would be enormous.

I agree that power equipment is going to be absolutely necessary at a few key locations. Real considerations as to security are important. It's not going to seriously impede the effort if some hand tools disappear, but how is one going to secure a fleet of mobile plasma cutter/welder/generators out in the sticks?

Leave stuff like that unsecured and the local ambitious, industrious, entrepreneur is going to put it to what he deems it's best use.

Let me state, I'm not a Luddite, but why waste a valuable resource.

Jes' sayin',

Packrat

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