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spacecannon
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Shipping Container Housing

01/16/2010 12:05 PM

I have a civil engineer friend whoose dream it is to design and build shipping container housing for general use and for emergency use, like an instant city for Haiti. Im trying to motivate him to live his dream, so what does everyone think about container housing?

spacecannon

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Geoff Daly
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#538
In reply to #500
 Find in discussion

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/06/2010 12:50 PM

CaptMoosie,

the water treatment systems you refer to on board ship and portable field units are made up of green sand filters, activated carbon bed type (read Calgon etc), then a turbo thermo compression distilation unit (all the junk is collected at the bottom and sucked of via a vacuum tank connection) units can produce dependent on size from 50 gph too 350 gpm...yes and you can feed them pond scum type water. Usually units are available from several sources..one being the discontinued Wyeth plant in Purto Rico is rated at 125 gpm of FDA grade water to USP XIXI...but can be down graded to alower quality....all made by AquaChem out of Houston Tx, FinnAqua from Wis and Helsinki Finland and Stilmas of Milan Italy.

ATL by the way are still waiting for the NGO who wanted 30 x 3,000 gallon flexible pillow tanks for Haiti...they quoted 14 days ago!!!! wonder why the delay?

Do we want to explore this side of the infrastructure for supporting the container shelter idea, the compositing toilts from Chris288, Stu's; odor control idea, bywires; idea for using Frac tanks to hold water....also what about recycling garbage/waste to generate methane gases to generate fuel for gas driven diesel generators for electricity, local distribution or the idea of a decommisioned NP sub feeding onto shore.

Some one I understansd and I think it is CW is compiling with KY a comprehensible list of the posted ideas...do we want to add the above as part of our thoughts?

Great job by CW and KY for attempting/doing this, also all who have contributed, but especially to Chris Leonard for keeping the link exposed...many people I have spoken too see it immediately and have added it as a "favorite link' for future visiting...all involved in engineering etc..thanks Chris L and Kudos to all at GlobalSpec for your support.

Geoff Daly NH

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Transcendian
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#539
In reply to #538

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/06/2010 1:52 PM

NP Carrier on my part was wrong and very unlikely nuke or not. I posted a correction after fact checking.

CWs reservoir concepts on hilltops most likely best shared infrastructure solutions for long term.

Wrote Chris Leonard, asking for Media Contact Guidelines. We may not get those till Monday, later, or if at all. Some people take Sat & Sunday off.

The biogas generation systems are important due to ecological damage done in pursuit of charcoal in Haiti. I've heard of some as simple as plastic over a latrine with a hose run to a burner tip used in Africa, on up to major builds that supply gas for Rwandan prisons designed by a German firm.

Deforestation in Rwanda has also been a problem there.

Rainwater collection systems are likely good to concentrate on. Water weighs 8 pounds a gallon.

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Kyzine
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#546
In reply to #539

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/06/2010 11:14 PM

"Rainwater collection systems are likely good to concentrate on."

Having drawn attention to water early in the thread - and the approaching wet season - I couldn't agree more.

There is nothing as simple as a strung tarp.

I incorporated that ability in the combined 'poly tarp annex bridges' / container concept suggestion made at that stage.

This concept also shades the containers.

It provides covered out-door space for cooking etc.

Only the containers are ultimately severe storm proof - but the tarps can be furled and reset - given warning. Meanwhile they have free of ground contamination water collection.

Initially I'd use simply strung tarp with a center hole and a flotation collar pool as a reservoir (~$100, ~2,800 gal,10,680 l)

Filtration of rain can be as primitive as a shade cloth sieve, in that hole.

This is an immediately bucket accessible "cleaner than at present" (and mass treatable) local temporary housing water supply, (sits under tarp)

Later....................

The liner in "container on container" is UV protected - the height gives reasonable head for nearby distribution, but both can be lined.

Framed tarps, as in the pavilion concept, can directly fill the on ground container.

On the proposed tarp area / typical rain / less use per person; pools may well be regularly overflowing - wasting rain needed for the dry season.

So "eventually" you could issue a small pump to transfer up to the container store from collection pools and or on-ground container storage.

That on ground container may be 40 ft, as it is not spanning, as it does when stacked.

_______________________

This is one such pump out of Asia A$199.00 retailed on e-bay

PETROL WATER PUMP 1HP - 1" FITTINGS 4 x 4 CAMPING-NEW - eBay ...

However remember labor, buckets and a rope can do this task.
-----------------------------

Also water systems are designed to advantage the terrain - so each 'village' is a case by case configuration - so an overall approach is the most flexible BOM.

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bwire
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#549
In reply to #546

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 12:08 AM

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200380049_200380049

http://www.northerntool.com/stores/florida.htm?cm_sp=Global%20Header-_-Stores-_-Florida

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Kyzine
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#551
In reply to #549

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 12:37 AM

Good to know bwire - there is also a quite neat tiny one (would about fit in a shoe box) I've seen in use, but could not find on the web.

(Tiny - just thinking of freight vol, distribution logistics, fuel demands etc.)

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Geoff Daly
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#552
In reply to #551

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 12:58 AM

Ky,

what about a small house submersible sump pump..runs on 110 volts and can pump 25gpm via 11/2" housing? bwires idea is also good and there is an MFG who make a very small one gas or electric rated for 125 gpm, is a selfpriming centrifugal (the Forest service use them for pumping in remote areas...45 to 65 Lbs and is back packable...21/2 " hose connections) could be part of the water catching storage system using the tarp and an IBC tank coupled together or Frac tank.

Geoff Daly NH

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bwire
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#553
In reply to #552

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 1:22 AM

Siphon works plenty good...

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ky
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#555
In reply to #552

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 3:04 AM

Hi Geoff

Please let me set this right. I think you are confusing me with

Kyzine

I am

ky

Not that I would mind much but it's been going on since some time now. I am the one sitting on the fence, the one in the shade, with plenty to drink and all other resources in place. My heart still goes out but I have chosen to stay in the back ground, for the time being. I can't remember who it was (a President of USA?) but he said something like "sharpening the ax should take more time than felling the tree", or something like that.

I'll say, Sharpening my tools in time and I have some ideas, is my next step. Publishing these would not be in the interest of the learned people participating in this thread so I will refrain from detailed suggestions.

I have made a promise, a while back, concerning airing political views on CR4, and I will stick to it. The so called "science of politics" is no such thing. Science relies on facts, where as politics is as imponderable as a gas during a phase change or even more "impondarabler".

There is this elephant in the room and he keeps blocking the way of the participants of this thread to be center stage and be heard in an objective forum.

Do I lock surprised?

I painted this many years ago, for Princess Diana's appraisal, while she was dealing with the issue of land mines and the such. Some one is twiddling thumbs while Jesus is still alive on the cross and Crocodiles tears will not ad much to the sea of misery. I think she never saw it and the Texan, that bought it in the end, had to send it back because his wife thought it was a bit harsh. How can you not refund a Texan's wife if the produce is not appreciated?

I promised now, didn't I? Ky.

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cwarner7_11
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#565
In reply to #555

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 12:13 PM

Ky-

Is that painting for sale? I like it...
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Stueywright
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#557
In reply to #552

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 3:33 AM

What about a small marine 12v submersible bilge pump hooked up to a small 12v battery fed by a small PV array.

I use this setup on my boat to supply raw (salt) water to the faucets. This setup is cheap to do and will feed, even with a 5/8" pump, multiple outlets.

There is a switch to activate the pump once the faucet is opened.

Please note that this is in no way intended to replace a water pressure pump. Marine or camper trailer pumps are not expensive and give 45psi at the faucet, even for a modest one.

Other marine fittings such as manual faucet pumps are even cheaper. They are made of various plastics.

Stu.

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Kyzine
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#559
In reply to #552

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 4:32 AM

Hi Geoff, I just realized you're apparently addressing me - not Ky.

Ky is the avatar/signature of a talented chap on Magnetic Island - quite separate from Kyzine.

I'm commonly abbreviated to Kyz (for this reason)

Sorry if I have been "not responding"

-------------------------------------

However - pumps

Given power - electric submersible are the ducks guts (technical term )

One does not however start the generator to run them - if one has a diesel or petrol pump suitable.

Petrol pumps fall into 3 broad category's

Here is an Australian manufacture - but there will be US equivalents, so it's just to see the types and properties. view full Aussie pump range

Transfer pumps = high volume and low pressure (typically 100-200 kPa ~10 -20m ~30 -60 feet) big flows.

Single stage pressure pumps = practical heads up to about 400 kPa (~40 metres, 130ft)

Multi-stage pressure pumps = heads 2, 3, 4,...times

You can have any of the above pump types in more or less any size/hp.

Tanker and other 'transfer' operations want the high volume

Lifting up small hills, or running small fire fighting nozzles, you want single stage.

Above that, you need above that.

Most of the water operations - tanker - small pools up to top container - fall into transfer heads.

If you used single stage pressure pumps for this you'd use more fuel for gallons moved.

------------------------------

Rain capture;

I may be wrong here - not having been to Haiti - but rain in equatorial wet seasons tends to be buckets in the afternoon.

If I assume at rates of 1"/ hr on a 40 foot square tarp - I'm going to have to have about a 6" hole in the center to let it out - or I'll have a collapsed tarp.

Hence "put the pool in the middle".

Also if you start plumbing into the tarps, if becomes an issue to quickly furl it. Also a man with a stick can no longer poke out any collection of vegetation washed to the hole and blocking flow.

-------------------------

In general terms - specifying a pump - tarp - frame - hose kits - etc etc, is short work.

BUT - as said - we need intel on what is needed - to get all these ideas into the appropriate mix.

Meanwhile - from what I've seen - this forum has solutions for just about any set of circumstances, in field now, to a Haiti future disaster resistant housing solution.

Kyz.

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Stueywright
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#562
In reply to #559

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 6:33 AM

GA from me.

Where's LCD?

Stu.

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cwarner7_11
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#566
In reply to #559

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 12:20 PM

Kyzine-

Your estimates of the amount of rainfall in the tropics is a bit low. Here in Panama, or parts of Panama situated similarly to Haiti, the afternoon dump often reachs 2" per hour. I have personally measured 6" in a 20 minute downpour- and that was not during a hurricane! I do not believe most tarp configurations could survive such a downpour...
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Kyzine
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#598
In reply to #566

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 9:17 PM

Excellent cwarner - DATA!!!! Love it!!

True I was just putting something out there to illustrate that trying to integrate plumbing into the tarp idea is asking for trouble - that collection has to be KISS and resident serviceable.

Your numbers are a golden bonus.

And no a 6" hole in a 40' square catchment ain't going to handle it - short of a Kevlar tarp and serious tie off structures.

Also any filter (such as the shade cloth filter) will have to be a tear-away at flow back-up number, as will the tie "fail at number" (for wind) need to be looked at.

But it's just a case of having numbers to work with.

I also have no idea of;

Of what "available site" terrain is likely.

What are the 'acceptable persons/m2 " in this society?

The "best frequency" for this container/tent string concept.

What is the container ratio of 20's and 40's?

Would a 20' spacing be better?

Would it be better to work on a 20' 2 tarp module = 2 per 40' pair?

Meaning two pools? or one tarp is kept stayed?

[Design concept wise; this idea has invertible roof frames. Up gives pitched mode - where hole is vent - Down = collecting mode - where hole is drain. I.e residents can choose to collect - which has the inconvience of living under as saggy roof, but only for that duration. It incorporates a Velcro attached filter - which also acts as mosquito barrier in pitched mode - as do end walls of shade cloth]

So thanks hugely for the input - now all I need is the rest - and "feasibility" is possible to assess. For now I'll just make the vent/filter say 2-3 feet diameter.

Anyone else with DATA - on any of the "un-knows" above - based in empirical and/or first hand regional experience - feel free to jump in.

And C7 11 - more please - as it's a region of the world I've never been to, I have no feel for the conditions/society.

Kyz.

p.s. please take care that such "On Topic" stuff is not posted "off topic"

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#740
In reply to #566

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/10/2010 1:46 AM

Here in Cairns (very similar to Haiti and Panama), the design rainfall rate for roofing is 400mm (16") per hour for 1 in 25 year, 20" per hour for 1 in 50 years and 24" for 1 in 100 year storm.

Of course you don't expect this rate for a full hour, although during a cyclone it can go on for quite a long time.

I agree, a tarp won't survive that.

You couldn't realistically expect more than a couple of years from the tarp.

In addition, the tropical sun destroys the plastic material very quickly. It simply rots and falls apart.
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Stueywright
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#742
In reply to #740

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/10/2010 3:12 AM

We got 16" in just over an hour on top of Tamborine last week.

Stu

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CaptMoosie
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#743
In reply to #742

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/10/2010 9:52 AM

Hello All:

Amazing! I'm away for a day and the Thread in this Blog continues to grow and grow!

Stuey: Are those Rainfall values that you have quoted herein actual Rainfall Intensity Values in Inches/Hour with respective Return Storm (based on Probability), or the SCS Synthetic 24-hour Rainfall Values in Inches? I am assuming it's the first one, so that's a hell of a lot of water, as in Peak Rainfall Intensity (In./Hr.).

Given those types of rainfall values, I'd hesitate placing any shelter on a hillside for fear of mudslides. If you think Earthquakes are bad, then try living through a massive mudslide.......it's like a river of concrete traveling down the slopes and an excessive rate of speed and more devastating than a snow avalanche. Nothing can really stop one. One only has to look at what repeatedly happens in California year after year (and in other places around the world) when the rainy season hits them, especially if the hillsides are devoid of any vegetation (with adequate root systems) as is reported throughout Haiti!

My recommendation is to stay way from the hillsides as far as placement of shipping container shelters are concerned.

In regards to the "hotbox concept" that a container would become: yes, it's a very valid concern. I proposed that you take those expensive tents they'll be sending to Haiti an drape them over the containers, but you must maintain a decent airspace between the tent and the top of the container for air flow. Just support the tent with enough of those Bamboo poles along the length of the container by fashioning an A-Frame.....poles tied with rope or Hemp or twine at the top....the pole bases can be secured to the top edge of the container roof with a couple of RAMSET Powder-Activated Steel pins. [BTW, I do have a RAMSET gun and routinely shoot into structural steel members and concrete....pins come in different diameters and lengths and even types depending on the anchoring material. It's fantastically easy to use too and would not take much time to teach Haitians hot to use one. Just have to remember to teach them not to point the gun towards another human being or themselves, just like you'd teach someone not to point a loaded or unloaded firearm at someone...EVER!!!!!!]. After the frames are completed then you can drape the tarp or tent over the frames and secure them with rope or strong twine.

I also think you'll need to either paint the side walls of the containers to reflect the solar radiation......use whitewash paint or a silver roofing paint.

Read a news report on MSN.com this morning saying that increasing numbers of Haitians (mostly kids and infants) are coming down with Diarrhea and severe dehydration .....many are dying, all due to lack of clean, safe drinking water, adequate food, and safe waste disposal......appears that many kids are washing up and even playing in contaminated roadside ditches. Also, Mosquitoes are becoming a increasing problem that'll most likely result in increased reports of Malaria.

I had forecast that this second wave of the emergency would occur back in the week following the earthquake, by arguing that the relief parties, from the get go, had better focus their energy foremost on providing adequate potable water and food, medical care and sanitary conditions. What I feared is now upon us. What the help is holding up all the relief materials, medicine, shelters, trained personnel? Still a bottleneck is occurring and nobody is really in charge......just following their "playbooks" to the letter to CYA as Geoff Daly pointed out earlier.

That's it for now....will be in and out all day snow-blowing the White Sh-t during this Blizzard........it may be "Pennies from Heaven" overtime $$$ for the local Dept. of Public Works crews, but to me it's still the "White Sh-t" nonetheless! ***LOL***

What, no "Sunny Smiley Face Snowflakes" available for pasting???? Hmmmm, gotta fix that somehow someway!!!! CR4 Forum Admin?????

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#563
In reply to #552

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 9:16 AM

In regard to pumping water: try to convey water by gravity means by all means possible. And if you do have to pump, make sure the pump is the"oil-less" variety to avoid contamination of the potable water.

Even if you do collect rainwater as a potable water source you are going to have to disinfect it, as there are many pathogens that are spread airborne. Ditto with many mold spores too. It makes no sense to collect the rainwater and have it get contaminated inside a hot rubber water badder (or other storage vessel). Probably the cheapest means of disinfection is to use ordinary household chlorine bleach. Next would be sodium Hypochlorite in powder form. I'd advise all to not use Sodium Hypo in the liquid form because you're paying for the water in the solution plus the weight penalty re increased shipping costs and just plain handling of the drums.

Also, when you establish sanitary waste and water storage facilities, place the water storage uphill and no less than 100 feet separation (but do try to increase this distance if at all possible to no less than 250 feet separation) so as to avoid contamination issues. Same goes for any water wells that may be drilled; uphill away from wastewater disposal facilities and provide an even greater buffer zone horizontally.....I suggest no less then 250 feet horizontal separation if at all possible. Ditto when applying separation and placement for landfilling or other solid waste disposal operations & facilities. This should also apply to any waterway, including roadside ditches as we all know, people will get lazy and will just defecate in the streets and roads regardless if facilities are provided....sorry to say drunks will be drunks, kids will be kids and etc etc.....and people will use whatever standing water source for waste elimination as well as clothes washing.

Does anyone know if Port a Prince and some of the larger towns and villages had any established wastewater collection, treatment and disposal facilities. Ditto for established safe and clean water source, water storage and distribution system? Fire hydrants even present? If there were, does anyone have a clue how these existing facilities faired during the initial earthquake and subsequent after quakes? Typically, how deep are these systems buried on island nations such as Haiti in the Tropics? 2 feet or less, with depth of bury more mandated due to structural loadings on pipelines (wheel loadings)?

If there is anything less operational, possible FEMA ought to get their act together and locate all such existing facilities on a GIS database......those parts that are known to work versus those part known or suspected to have been destroyed.

More to come later........

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#567
In reply to #563

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 12:31 PM

CaptMoosie-

I can not speak for Haiti, but my experience in Latin America suggests to me that a good deal of the original water distribution system may have been less than 6" deep (running exposed on the surface where erosion has had its effect), and most likely fabricated from thin-walled PVC tubing. Survivability potential near 0...
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#572
In reply to #563

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 2:39 PM

CaptMoosie,

There is some really great information here. As much as it might be common sense, I am certain it is far from common, and I for one, thank you for contributing it. excellent GA. this is clearly the result of years of practical on-the-ground experience dealing with humans and their water supply. This is reality speaking. thats what I hear.

Chris
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#622
In reply to #572

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 7:56 AM

Dear Chrisg288,

Many thanks Chris for the GA and kind words. Yes, many years of practical engineering experience. At the end of this year will mark my 33rd year in Civil Engineering, and for many of those year as a staff engineer of one degree or another in consulting engineering firms in upstate NY. Experience also came by way of US Army Corp of Engineers, and later US Army Engineers in the Reserve, as well as a former City Engineer.

I just hope before leave this good Earth that I can bestow some common sense and good engineering logic/practice into some of the next generation of engineers. God knows they need it. Most of all, many of them do not possess the "PASSION" for good solid engineering. When I started my career it was right after I left an Active Duty commitment in the US Army Rangers, so I had a solid go for it attitude. I started in an engineering era where we still drafted with our hands and hearts, and not on computers, Also, at that time handheld calculators were starting to become commonplace in engineering schools. How many out there remember the handy dandy TI-55, TI-57 and TI-58-II???? Remember the strapped-on carrying cases for them??? LOL OMG!!!!!!!

Also, I must thank my late father, a career Officer in the US Army, and later in the Reserve and NY Army National Guard for instilling in me a lust for learning and life, but more importantly, how to be compassionate. Same thanks goes to my mom, especially for common sense approach to handling the big and little problems that will arise in one's life!

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#625
In reply to #622

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 8:23 AM

How many out there remember the handy dandy TI-55, TI-57 and TI-58-II????

I think I still have mine at home somewhere, possibly the TI-58.

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#630
In reply to #625

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 9:54 AM

Nigh, my word! You held onto that old Texas Instruments Dinosaur for over 30 years???!!!!! WOWSERS with a capital "W"!!!!!!!!!

I'm no better because I still have 2 of my HP-41CV calculators here on my desk. And yes, they both work like new......I use them every day too in my profession!!!! LOL Ya can't beat RPN and plug-in modules like the Structural Analysis one. Somewhere around here in a box I still have my old HP Thermal Printer!!!! It works, but the HP1L module and patch cord are shot. Love these old Dinos a there's nothing on the market as far as I'm concerned that's comparable and programmable!!!!!

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#632
In reply to #630

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 10:20 AM

30 years is about right, I got it as part of a group buy when I worked at Marconi. Buying in bulk got the price down to a reasonable level.

When I last checked the TI still worked but only when plugged into the mains adaptor.

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#631
In reply to #622

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 10:08 AM

Hi CaptMoosie,

That is an impressive history. Thank you for sharing. I started out in the manual days of drafting too. I started using autocad/pc's in 1989 (ver 10) and have been at various 'graphic' apps ever since (although my autocad is now rusty) I much prefer 3d or visio. I'm also an army brat, but my father forbid me to enter... (I had kids by then, and he said it would never pay)(mom was an RN)

Chris
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#633
In reply to #631

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 11:09 AM

Hi Chris,

Many parallels between you and I. I started in 1977 and didn't get into Autocad until 1985 (?). My dad was a dentist for 40+ years until his untimely death due to a brain tumor. My mom was also a RN, as is my second wife Pat. My first one (T-Rex) is a Registered Occupational Therapist. Both wives families are on the heavy side medically....W #1's mom was a RN as is 3 or her sisters. Another sister is a PA. One brother is a RN while another bro is a MD....other two brothers are useless as teets on a Bull!!! LOL W#2 has a brother who is has a Masters in Pysch and runs setting up programs for alchohol and drug rehab worldwide....a sister has a PhD in Pysch and is a department chairperson at a NJ College where she teaches....too many medicals in my life!!!LOL to top things off my oldest daughter is finishing her Masters in Speech Therapy in NYC!!!! Daughter #2 is in a Radiantion therapy program!!

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#675
In reply to #622

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 8:38 PM

CaptMoosie-

TI-59!!! Programable- I actually did my first computer course completely on the TI-59- including graphical output. Little metalized cards you could slip in to the slot for running the programs you had written...
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#556
In reply to #546

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 3:09 AM

It seems you like single sentence paragraphs as much as my friend Russell! GA though
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#560
In reply to #556

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 4:39 AM

Who's Russell?

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#561
In reply to #560

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/07/2010 6:01 AM

It's quite a project keeping up with the aliases....

There's CaptMoosie (civil engineer), DrMoose (physicist), and Moose (Steve Melito, one of the CR4 moderators).

Then Del the Cat, Kris the squirrel, Blink another cat, Laughing Jaguar = Snoopy, a mouse wearing a football helmet as he approaches the cheese trap, adorable pit bull Bhankiii, golden retriever Labyguy, crazy cat Tippycanoe [and Tyler too?]. Russell = Transcendian. Some snarling Doberman in there. Beriberi the bemused orangutan(?).

My apologies for any inaccuracies or omissions--welcome to the zoo!

If there is a giraffe avatar, now there's an animal that could put its head 10 ft (3 m) from where the sun shines....

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#541
In reply to #538

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/06/2010 3:57 PM

Geoff-

My current approach is to focus on the housing issue, which presents a sort of dillema because there are many other uses, as you and many others have pointed out, for these containers. Later on, perhaps, we could expand into a total disaster recovery concept, but right now, just getting the housing idea consolidated is enough of a challenge! Both Chrisg288 and Garthh are assisting in this process...
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#542
In reply to #541

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/06/2010 7:51 PM

Cwarner,I'm with you there. Get these poor buggers out of the mud and onto hard flooring under robust roofs first. Then let them with guidance build their communities around that.

Then we should do something serious about ongoing disaster relief, for the rest of the world. We all know there will be more of them. Some of them will be in our own backyards, so we need to be happy to live in the systems ourselves.

I have noted that there are many commercial entities advertising that they can/will supply to disaster relief. For my part I think that the systems should be developed so as not to compromise the profitability of a commercial entity, as this would constitute massive donation to the cause by them.

Disaster relief should be an entity on it's own. Massive donations by individual countries and their militaries, are really taxpayer donations, and then you are called upon to support more by 'aid concerts', charities, etc. Whilst we do need as a world community, a good humanitarian ethic, when we run out of funds, are those without funds going to step up and support 'us'.

Just a thought.

I do think there should be a Disaster Relief Fund to which every person on the planet subscribes, scaled on the product of his country, attenuated by the likelihood of a 'happening'. Rather like we have insurance, and administered by a committee of countries

Just another thought.

Cheers,

Stu

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#543
In reply to #542

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/06/2010 8:08 PM

"I do think there should be a Disaster Relief Fund to which every person on the planet subscribes"

Stuey, While I understand the motivation, I cringe at the implications of such a plan. Already I grit my teeth when I think about insurance companies... Let us leave this to volunteerism and the golden rule. It is nature's way. History has shown us that our best intentions in creating such institutions are invariably perverted against the common welfare, and tend to concentrate more power into the hands of the few. imho.

Chris
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#544
In reply to #543

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/06/2010 8:21 PM

Yeah, I know, mate, but there are a lot ( millions)who don't give a damn ( and a lot who can't), and there should be a way to prod these. In a perfect world.

Unless we strive for a perfect world we'll never get one.

Gotta at least aim for the target. Eh?

Some folks are giving their 'all'. Not fair. Stu.

seem to have discovered the workings of this para thing????

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#545
In reply to #542

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/06/2010 8:29 PM

Stu-

There are, of course, several different layers and requirements to disaster relief, and I think it is possible for a commercial entity to combine disaster relief systems with a profitable business- especially with regards to conversion of surplus shipping containers for a variety of purposes (several of which have been proposed here). I envision something along the lines of a commercial converter maintaining quick response systems in some appropriate location (a port, typically) that could be rapidly deployed as needed. Some of the money currently being bandied about ($42 million for tents in Haiti, for example) could then be diverted to such a commercial operation to cover their costs.

This, of course, would not necessarily provide rapid response for immediate medical needs, and there may be quicker ways to provide emergency food rations immediately after the event, but, generally, one needs to think of long-term support as well (without reducing the affected community to a hopeless welfare state). Haiti is still trying to recover from a hurricane that struck four or five years ago, and part of the problem is that a lot of the relief effort, while well-intentioned, is misdirected. Maybe we can contribute to a small change in the process that will improve on this.

I do not see us at CR4 as being able to put something like that together, but the efforts here can be used to inform the powers that be that, yes, there is a better way...
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#548
In reply to #541

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/06/2010 11:53 PM

Charlie,

What help can I offer to assemble information for consolidating into a list of useable ideas/consepts list?

Send me an email of what you need done to assist you, Chris288, Garth and Ky

Geoff Daly Nh

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#534

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/06/2010 2:05 AM

help with the water problem

http://www.htiwater.com/assets/pdf/news_haiti-relief_011910.pdf

chris
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#665

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 6:23 PM

Haven't read all the posts, but did read some .

Trans brings up some practical objections to their use. I agree that they are heavy as hell, need specialized equipment to move and place, and you are not gainibg anything over tents, the shipping company maintenance shop at the port of Palm Beach, Tropical Shipping was having to place special tarps on the older ones because they leak, old ones are not even rainproof. So you end up with an overly heavy frame for a tent or tarp, what did you gain?

packrat

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#670
In reply to #665

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 7:09 PM

well... first we should define 'tent'

A shipping container is generally, 8' x 8' x 20', 30', 40' and can sleep 6 to 12 people comfortable. (assuming all other functions are camp based, and containers are purely for shelter/sleep. E-bay has 40' containers for ax 1250$ USD... approx equal in sleepign area to a 16man tent.

http://www.worldofcamping.co.uk/shop/large_family_tent__R1_2__ 16 man tent = 650 £ (exchange rate at 1.56089 USD) = 1014.58$ US.

Obviously it is easier and cheaper to ship tents to a place like Haiti, but I would say that the shipping container, of which thousands? are already on the island, they offer far greater sustainability options.

As has been said many times here, their safety factor in hurricane season is much greater, especially if anchored properly, and the potential for building non-residence use is vastly greater. Show me a tent that has spent 10 to 20 years set up, outdoors, and doesn't have holes... won't happen.

I would rather my donation dollars go to containers than tents. call it my 'vote'.

Chris
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#676
In reply to #670

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 8:44 PM

Hello all,

Been following the progress of the blog comments, but now am getting a tad worried where it's been leading to in the past day.

One of the reasons why the majority of the participants in this blog have chosen steel shipping containers over tents as a permanent shelter is fairly obvious. One of the largest contributors or factors that cause human deaths in a Hurricane is that materials become dislodged or literally ripped-off buildings (and what not) from the high winds and become airborne weapons/projectiles. Another factor is structural collapse of buildings and crushing and.or dismemberment of the occupants. Not a pretty sight if you ask me, and I'm a twice baked Combat Veteran. Another factor is the storm surge, especially dangerous when it coincides with the high tide, resulting in drownings.

When you use a tent for shelter against hurricane force winds, it provides you no protection whatsoever, especially against airborne debris slamming into it. Also, the tents will most likely blown down and away before the sustained wind speeds reach 70 MPH, affording the occupants no cover at all against the driving rains and more debris. Conversely, providing steel shipping containers for shelter will protect it's occupants against debris and collapse if they are properly anchored into the underlaying soil mass or a concrete slab or using concrete anchor blocks etc etc. They are extremely string against high loadings and crushing forces. they're designed that way to protect the valuable merchandise they're carrying.

I tell you what, I'd prefer to be in a steel container any day versus a cloth tent during any sort of tropical storm or Hurricane. For example and personal experience: I spent a few very unpleasant days and nights inside a standard US Army tent during Desert Shield/Desert Storm back in the winter of 1991. In fact, during the second night of a massive sand storm that occurred in the Saudia and Iraqi deserts we lost the tent completely. We never did find it later, even after an extensive search. Believe me when I tell you all that it was a living hell being exposed the way we were until we could find suitable shelter inside our vehicles. Being inside such a sand storm like my Reinforced Eng. Company experienced that night was akin to living through the nastiest Blizzard you could imagine...total whiteout. In this case it's a brownout, literally. You can't see 3 inches in front of your face plus you're being sand-blasted to death. You don;t dare expose any skin to the blowing sands as it would eat away the flesh off your bones. Several days later we were informed by Battalion that the wind speeds hand been measured during the storm; they had reached over 90 MPH, with partially sustained gusts adding an additional 10 to 15 MPH. The sand and wind was so terrific it took off the paint on armor vehicles, trucks, Hummers, and the black painted barrels on our M-16 rifles. I won't go into detail what it did to glass windscreens and side mirrors on Hummers, etc. We had to remove those later on because they were total useless for seeing through. Also, you should see the lenses on my desert goggles (I kept them) as you cannot actually see through them....they're so opaque because of the sand pitting of the lenses!!!! Although I've never been through a hurricane before, I can only imagine the conditions endured by people trying to survive a Hurricane where the sustained wind speeds are even 130 MPH or even worse, 150 to 160 MPH. At those speeds a 2 x 4 piece of lumber can be literally stripped off a house or building, become airborne, and then propelled straight through a Standard 12-inch thick Concrete Masonry Wall...the result being somewhat akin to blowing a round hole in the wall with a 25mm Bushmaster Cannon (mounted on the US Army's M2 Bradley IFVs) ball-type round...and I'm not talking about Armor Piercing DU or Tungsten Steel rounds that are used to kill fortified bunkers, tanks and other armor and soft targets like trucks and Jeeps...the enemy himself.

No way will a tent repel such a airborne projectile. Just ask the guys at the National Hurricane Center in Miami, FL or the guys testing various products against flying projectiles conducted at the UL labs. They'll tell you, then they'll demonstrate such forces involved with Hurricanes, all in their labs....

TIME FOR A REALITY CHECK...........

Added my 2 US Cents.....

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#680
In reply to #676

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 9:04 PM

GA.. you do a good job of describing the experience. There is a great portrayal of sand storm in the movie the English Patient. (one of my all-time favs)

Chris
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#681
In reply to #680

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 9:14 PM

Chris, thanks!

I've never seen the movie "English Patient" before. Who are the primary actors in it and how old is it? Next time to the video store I'll try to find it!!!!

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#683
In reply to #681

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 9:40 PM

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116209/
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#703
In reply to #683

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 11:38 AM

Chrisg288:

Many thanks for the link. Looks like a great movie!!! I'll definitely try to rent the DVD tonight before the Blizzard hits us and we're stuck inside for the next 2 days. We missed the last one over the weekend, but I fear we'll get clobbered this time around down here in the Mid-Hudson River Valley!!!! Now I gotta verify that the standby gen-set will start up when the power grid crashes around our ears....so typical for this region. I'm beginning to think that maybe after all that I should have installed a battery bank to go along with the Solar PV system that went in last week!!!! Still not up and running as we're awaiting inspections from the Building Code Compliance Officer as well as the guy from the local power company (we have reverse metering installed).

Now I only wished that I had finished building the prototype Vertical Axis Windmill Turbine to take advantage of these winds........oh well

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#682
In reply to #676

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 9:33 PM

Well it's alright to deal with the guys that show up and say there is something better.

I consider it practice for dealing with bureaucrats.

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#686
In reply to #676

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/08/2010 10:06 PM

One thing that some overlook when thinking of riding out a hurricane is the tornadoes it spawns too. Yeah the sustained speeds may be less than 200 but who can say of the tornadic effects?

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#705
In reply to #686

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 11:53 AM

An E5 category Tornado out in the mid-west (last year?) had sustained funnel wind speeds clocked at 248 MPH....that eclipses the long standing World Record for sustained Wind Speed of 232 MPH clocked at the summit of Mount Washington in New Hampshire back in 1932 (?). Correct me if I'm wrong with the speeds and dates......relying on my old gray matter here and that's been known to falter from time to time!

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#720
In reply to #705

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 6:17 PM

CaptMosie,

you are correct and but was in Stu's neck of the woods...small island off the coast of northern OZ (Barrow something I think..Stu?), that eclipsed our NH record.

But NH's Mount Washington still has the worst weather pattern in the world...have three weather fronts meeting in the area on a very regular basis...sun one minute then dense fog/rain, got caught going up Tuckermans Ravine four years ago with two friends...hunkered down in the open for 6 hours till it cleared over 35 people in the same area (but all were prepared anyway..mighty cold for awhile..our thermometer read -12F..my bag is rated for -5F and is water proofed via a bivvy bag).

Geoff Daly NH

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#723
In reply to #720

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 7:22 PM

Yeah Geoff, his backyard, 1600clicks south from here. I'm the one on the island off Oz.

Containers as shelters against destructive winds, absolutely. As a permanent residence no way, not in the tropics, unless fitted with adequate interior and exterior comfort measures. Even under first world conditions quiet an ask.

A huge problem after strong winds and I mean the stuff that leaves not a leaf on any tree, if they stand at all, is just that, there are no leaves so there is no shade and shade is as important as water. They are directly related.

During tests I have recorded over 60deg.C at mid day at 99% humidity. You would die in there if you were dehydrated. Not to mention the general exhaustion and trauma of all kinds, that take hold after catastrophic events.

I'm on the case, Ky.

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#724
In reply to #723

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 8:05 PM

Dear Ky,

Please refer back to post 475. I called Mr. Martin and he said to maintain good temperatures he did put roofs on the things, but there were other ways to do the job.

Mr. Martin also allowed that my suggestion of using pallets to allow for outside air ventilation, and tarp point attachment would likely work, but the problem with that was Haitians tend to burn all wood up.

Interior insulation is a problem for tall people.

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#694
In reply to #676

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 2:36 AM

We're there with ya Moosie.

I ran the postulation past a mate in Florida and he said he'd prefer tents. I told him BS. And cited the scenario you just painted.

I said to him, and I'd say to all, I'd rather be in a container, in a storm, than a tent, even if it isn't bolted down.

I'd only get a bruising in the rough ride.

And besides there are folk who would pay money for such a ride, Eh?

Cheers,

Stu

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#704
In reply to #694

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 11:43 AM

I'm with you too Stuey!

Can we sell tickets for the rough ride in a container? I'd be like some Disney World rides on steroids!!! Anyhow, it'd be close enough to some roller coaster rides that I've been on!!!! YEEAAAA HAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!! *LOL*

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#708
In reply to #704

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 12:29 PM

I'm reminded of Pushing Tin, where they go and stand at the end of the runway so that when a Jet plane comes in on final they are picked up by vortex winds and thrown around in the air like rag dolls.

Might be an interesting illustration to set up a tent and set down a container, and duplicate that scene with some crash test dummies.

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#706
In reply to #694

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 12:07 PM

Right strange isn't it. I mean even if you've never lived in a tent, you would imagine that if given the choice that the majority would pick something made of steel over something as flimsy as a tent can be.

I want to congratulate the new contributor John who of a sudden seems to have turned around and started making real contributions.

We all have our pets, pet theories, ideas and beliefs. One of mine has obviously been ships. -for instance.

Suppose that's why smart people hire accountants.

I noted a book review Moose put up about a book that was about leadership.

We are looking for a Leader outside of this forum to take up the cause. Damn this is turning out to be a bit more difficult than we might wish.

Called my local Congressman yesterday. Of course didn't get to speak with him directly, but did convince one of his aides that shipping containers were a good idea for Haiti.

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#711
In reply to #694

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 12:38 PM

Prepare a skid and nail down a tent upon it and place this skid behind any large jet aircraft as pushes the air. Let's give some first hand experiences to these tenter's

close rendition http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbZUsMt28-0&feature=related

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#709
In reply to #676

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 12:30 PM

I think the difference between shelter and housing is fairly significant. One is used during the emergency. The other is more or less permanent. One is community shelter, the other may imply ownership. Nobody disputes the value of a container in a hurricane. I dispute the value of a sea can in the hot sun. In the cold night. In a storm surge. In a mud slide. In a situation where you have one container for fifteen families. I think they make awesome shelters, were useful to have between me and the insurgents in Afganistan, but only a fool would dare enter one in late afternoon in Kuwait. (MY experience showing...)

You might ask the people on the ground why they have never dragged up the containers to live in before now? Or shelter in before now? The question which is being answered ad nauseum here is "How do we use sea land containers to shelter people" when the proper question should have been "how do we shelter people?" Lets face it, if all you want is to shelter against a storm, you don't have to modify anything, just drag them in place and let people "hunker down" until it is over. This doesn't need an engineer to figure out. And I can't think of anything better for storm shelter.

So at the risk of sounding negative, (honestly, I am not!) I can't get on the bandwagon and suggest that a city made of slc is viable for more than the very short term. I hear your challenge for something better. Although this is not the forum for it, I will answer that challenge. Long term shelter should be made from stone, lumber, fired brick and clay, the container must be there of course, but as a community lockup for tools, supplies and equipment and a place to duck into during the tent tearing hurricanes.

I know.. This idea doesn't belong here because there is no fancy engineering, retro-fitting, city planning or all the other things which have made a simple question into an eight page forum. But I bet it would work, and I bet it could be funded.

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#712
In reply to #709

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 12:47 PM

Yusef1,

There is no denying the validity of what you are saying. If they are so great, why isn't everyone living in one? (strong parallel to mobile homes)

For myself, in terms of affordable and fast 'emergency' shelter, that can also support a few years of regeneration of the Haitian economic recovery, shipping containers(sea cans, sea land, etc) are a one-stop-shop of solutions.

I also am a fan of quonset steel buildings, but they require foundations, and are less modifiable/reusable than shipping containers.

Chris
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#714
In reply to #709

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/09/2010 1:02 PM

The temperatures of Kuwait don't even compare to Haiti's average of 78-85°F chill man...Did you get the offshore breeze in Kuwait?

I think adobe maybe far better than a container...

What's your plan?

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#778
In reply to #714

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 9:52 AM

My plan! I presume that is a serious question. My plan is simple. Drag up some containers for secure storage, and get on with building with concrete, brick, stone, and mortar.

I have already said my piece regarding containers. They are good for security, and I have come to agree that they would be nice in a storm. They suck for housing. Real houses, built of real concrete, mortar, wood, steel and brick is the mid term and long term goal. Sea-Land containers "might" be useful on the way to achieving that goal in that they might provide a convenient storm cellar. Better to depend on them than trust to luck that there won't be another big blow in the next couple of months. The tents are already there so nobody has to live in a sea land container full time. "If" you can somehow pay for all those containers, and somehow drag them up to where they are needed, they will be very useful just as they are. You will need a dry place to store bags of concrete for the real re-building. You will need a place to lock up your equipment. You will need a place to keep your goods for sale. No fancy expensive modification. No need to put a tent over top your container. No need to cut holes or install plumbing. Just cans, to be used by the clever people as they need them for what they need them for. The first step to any of these ideas is "get the container and drag it up for use", so actually I am not suggesting anything really new. If they eventually need it for housing, they will figure it out. If they eventually need it for a bank, they they will figure it out. The goal of this forum should not be "How to make a container liveable", or even "how to make a mechanic's shop out of a container" but rather "how do we use the resources available to re-build a city when we have almost no money." Containers cannot be made liveable without expending huge amounts of money. Money that country doesn't have. They have lots and lots of LABOUR which wants to rebuild. The rebuilding solution which is the best is the one which uses the resources most effectively. What comes to mind is rammed earth, timber, lumber, adobe, stone, rammed block, cob, and my all time favorite, the cinva ram which uses the very dirt in the ground to make half dozen blocks a minute.

There is nothing in here I have not said before. But thats the answer to your question.

But an alternative solution to using containers is off topic for this thread of this forum, and because anything which disagrees with the premise that containers might not be the final answer is de facto "off topic" I shall save you all the trouble and mark it as "off topic" now.

The best of both worlds I suppose would be a container of cinva rams, corrugated steel, and 2 by 4s, in my back yard, ready to ship to wherever they are needed.

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#781
In reply to #778

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 11:27 AM

good stuff Yusef1, and there is some new things in this post. I can't fault your thinking. Your posts are valuable, but as you like to repeat this untruth "and because anything which disagrees with the premise that containers might not be the final answer is de facto "off topic" maybe i'm not understanding things the same way, but 'Topic' to me is saving Haitian lives, so your statement sounds weird to me.

I appreciate your contribution. don't mark such things off topic. does anyone disagree? If it saves lives, it is relevant to this conversation. we've covered water, food, guns, shelter, markets, planes, trains, ships with generators & purifiers...and more. mudslides, bamboo, and a ton more. I don't get your point on that.

For phase II I think Quonset steel buildings are a good choice. concrete foundations etc. Capt Moosie, for hurricane sheltering in containers, if each 40' container weights 8000 lbs empty, and if it was locked together (properly clamped) with a group of say half a dozen (3x2) so that they act as one, then the combined weight is 48000 lbs.. do you think this will still lift off? If you put 60 people in (10 in each, 150lbs avg each) then that would be an additional 9600 lbs, totalling 57600 lbs.

Chris
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#791
In reply to #781

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 3:49 PM

Sometime ago as I drove into a Tulsa, OK truck-stop immediately after the tornado left the area what first caught my eye were the semi-trucks stacked like cord-wood and helter-skelter, Forgettaboutit...

But you may possibly anchor these storm shelters by filling unsuitable containers with dirt and debris and partially burying them about 80% underground then attach the shelter to them.

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#799
In reply to #781

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 6:33 PM

My post is off topic Chris because the name of the thread is "Shipping Container Housing", not "creating shelter for homeless folks in Haiti". If there WAS a thread called "Saving Haitian Lives", that post would have been on topic.

I don't happen to believe that s.l.c. are the final answer....you want to house a million people in two thousand dollar containers, you will have to find two thousand million dollars. Just to get the empty cans. Then you can't live in 'em without another two thousand million dollars worth of improvements. Compare to, say, Oxfam's preferred solution... rammed earth blocks. Two hundred bucks for the ram which can make a thousand dwellings out of the dirt underfoot and fifteen dollars worth of locally made cement powder.Rammed earth is also suitable for the base for quonset huts, but you need a little more cement powder (one part cement to 8 parts dirt) Sea Cans for all their awesomeness can be only a short term goal, by short term, I mean "overnight" or "until the storm blows over". For that purpose, I cant imagine anything better. Anangpur Building has dozens of other ways to house people.

Doesn't matter, I shall withdraw from this discussion. I have said my piece. I am downloading cinva ram plans and gearing my shop up to make them. They seem to be a solution which just might have a chance to be implimented. I may be asking folks later on about ways to get them to Haiti, or any other place which has been flattened. Maybe some fundraising ideas. We will see. I'll be lurking though....keepin ya all honest!

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#800
In reply to #799

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 6:51 PM

Okay... noted.. thank you for your contribution. every bit helps. best wishes.
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#802
In reply to #799

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 7:25 PM

Hi Yusef,

A few years ago I was considering living in Mexico and doing it as cheap as possible. I was concerned about the seismic resistance of adobe , so i researched earthquake resistant adobe construction.

Lot of info available, the low-tech methods using indigenous materials seemed promising, corroborated with results obtained during actual earthquakes( adjacent buildings , resistant construction vs. traditional method, before and after pictures), indicated that adobe construction could be survivable in a strong quake. The structures most likely be damaged but they wont catastrophically collapse.

Very cheap and dirty, but effective.

Combining this with your rammed earth , brick mold;bamboo reinforcement, along with some critical shipped in material, wire netting, fasteners, nails, etc. and a lot of ready, willing and able manpower, could be one of the better solutions to THE problem.

Couldn't link the site that I had done my research on, but was able to find this in a quick search.

I think your on the right track, ship the rams in, let them use locally available materials, give them some advice on the seismic strengthening,and then get out of their way.

Packrat

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#804
In reply to #802

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 7:42 PM

good stuff... and Mexico just got hit with a 6.0 quake..

but it was cwarner7_11 who first discussed the applicability and methods of rammed blocks back a few hundred posts, more or less exactly as you are discussing. good ideas.

the only thing I can add is that if you are building arches with blocks, to add my 'block lock' into the design. (sorry I don't have a better pic.. but it is the round pin between blocks)

Chris
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#819
In reply to #802

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/12/2010 1:16 AM

Hello,

One CR4 member does adobe and rammed earth for a living his handle is "Georgia Adobe"

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#808
In reply to #799

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 8:05 PM

Yusef, how does rammed earth go in earth quakes? Serious enquiry.

I was under the impression it only really worked with clay rich soils - is this untrue?

Also that it has to be kept dry by big eves or lots of sealant?

How do you see the roofing side of things?

As said - serious enquiry.

Kyz

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#811
In reply to #808

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 9:42 PM

just for your information Cwarner suggested compressed earth blocks at post 100

I provided a link to techniques & press designs a few posts later

I additonally suggested cutting up some containers for the material to make presses

you need a mix of soils similar to adobe. a little bit of portland cement is going to go much further with CEB's

this technology would make 1st rate foundations

the solution is going to be a mix

I agree that even damaged containers should be used for housing. not suitable for transporting goods is still much superior to tar paper & tarp
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#812
In reply to #808

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 9:49 PM

Kyzine-

I have a lot of information on Compressed Earth Block construction- some have subjected this to earthquake testing with favorable results. There are adobe building throughout the Americas that have withstood many earthquakes, and CEB is more dense than typical adobe. Blocks can be "stabilized" using cement, fly ash or other substances, or the construction can be given an exterior coating just like with concrete block construction. CEB is more stable than concrete block because of the extra mass involved. Clay-rich soil is important- there are guidelines for the appropriate mix of clay and sand. In the tropics, soils do not usually have a lot of organic material, so most places in the tropics have appropriate soil...

If you are interested, I can send you some of the research I have done in the past, when this all blows over.

Charlie
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#838
In reply to #808

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/12/2010 1:02 PM

The information is all available here

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/24884/Making-Mud-Bricks-for-domestic-dwelling

The rammed earth fortress of Bam did not stand up to the earthquake very well. On the other hand, it had zero rebar, zero stabilized material, and in fact, was not rammed at all, but rather it was pretty much adobe. And it has withstood five hundred years of earthquakes before the big one which finally shook it apart.

(Anecdotal evidence, I know. I don't have access to Sirewall's certification studies.)

Sirewall uses re-enforced rammed earth, and they are in British Columbia and need to comply to earthquake regulations. They are not the only company which uses RE, and RE blocks have been used around the world for decades. There may be members of CR4 who are more familiar with it in extreme conditions, I have only used it in Canada.

Regards.

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#839
In reply to #838

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/12/2010 7:41 PM

Actually Yusef1, Richard Martin did show a school built in Jamaica using shipping containers, and one such is listed as done in Haiti, though the picture doesn't open from the post for me. Think the post is 145.

Reports of others around the world using shipping containers are impressive, and many many are really intended to be permanent homes.

Compressed earth blocks, or rammed earth block do and will of course have their place.

I sort of don't think it is a great time to focus on them right now since I see it as right hard to make enough of them in what is now an emergency situation, plus see it sort of hard to imagine making them, and building with them in the rain.

It would appear from todays reports that there is a movement towards recognizing the strong recommendations for using shipping containers for shelter right now since there has been a strong rain in Haiti.

I've even seen reports from the Red Cross that even they are thinking of legal issues that I addressed in my letter to them.

Further when I look at pictures of containers that have been tossed about by winds and water, they look intact. -This implies to me that if they are tied down, staked down, and properly oriented they will do alright.

Proper orientation must consider the prevailing winds and wind strength and direction that is normal for storms and hurricanes. Sure enough I expect most all Haitians will know what way the wind blows and if simply told that pointing the thin end into the wind is a good idea, will grasp that right quick.

Just as I have determined that folding shelters, and ships, are not either available, or cost prohibitive, I suggest you as well put rammed earth block a bit back in the order of things.

The order of things has been tents, and then traditional materials, which do not fit this situation.

The relative lessor need for foundations that using shipping containers represents is just too much of a recommendation for them.

Hell, you could cut them to bits and in half and strip off all the sidewalls and pile drive what you've got into the ground, or even sand to make foundations if you wanted.

So while I was not initially for them as places for habitation, I'm all over it now, still recognizing there are not even enough on hand for the massive needs, and internal and external relocations of desperate people are definitely called for.

I'd say that really every ship or plane that comes into the place to drop off supplies, ought to be flying or shipping people out to where ever they came from so not so many are trapped and forced into eternal dependency.

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#818
In reply to #799

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/12/2010 1:11 AM

Yes I was serious asking for your plan and I also believe the container concept is for temporary usage. This method of providing temporary housing is problematic unless you have the cans and an implementation plan ready to go before the disaster.

Time has moved the feasible timeline as usual and the folks of Haiti may well become more uncomfortable than normal this wet season and though many may not wish to relocate a lack of choice may sway them to move back out of the city.

Permanent replacement housing will take some time to accomplish but you are correct.

The cinva ram link provided in an earlier post was very interesting an the applications not limited.

Thanks

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#806
In reply to #781

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 7:54 PM

"and because anything which disagrees with the premise that containers might not be the final answer is de facto "off topic"

I gave a GA to cancel the "off topic" out, as I agree with you that it is relevant to the discussion.

...if it was locked together (properly clamped) with a group of say half a dozen (3x2) so that they act as one, then the combined weight is 48000 lbs.. do you think this will still lift off?...

Probably will. I haven't crunched the numbers yet, but from previous calcs for buildings in cyclonic conditions, the lift coefficient required by the code would be the envy of many aircraft designers. This uplift is the major component to deal with when designing the foundations.
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#814
In reply to #806

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/11/2010 10:05 PM

well... I can't argue.. not being an 'aeronautic engineer'.. but maybe it is just a question of having enough of them locked together.. fore example, here is what 30 x 40' containers would look like.. totalling 240,000 lbs...

I googled for containers being tossed about in hurricanes, but couldn't find much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G37p9YTfq64
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE_ri8PkihE

also, I don't remember if we've posted this site but I will again anyway.

Chris
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#821
In reply to #814

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/12/2010 1:44 AM

Stock photo of Container ship Mijuro after surviving storm in North Pacific with damage and loss to cargo of full product containers.

http://www.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_pages/0160-0511-2511-5352.html

Comments of Katrina...

When the surge subsided and the winds died down, we quickly went down to the lobby, only to find the entire first floor completely gutted! Exterior walls were gone, Interior walls were gone, doors, sinks, bathtubs, front desk--gone! All that was left on the first floor were the concrete pilings that kept the hotel standing.
Jim and I stayed and surveyed the area and noticed the destruction to be even more catastrophic just about half a mile to our west. This was because Gulfport had hundreds of shipping containers that came into the port with the surge, completely plowing down everything in their path for about a quarter mile inland. Where we rode out the hurricane, the live oak tress were still standing, but just half a mile to our west, even the live oaks trees were gone! It didn't matter if a structure was wood or concrete, if it was downstream from these shipping containers and on the immediate coast, it was gone!

containers and train cars tossed tom and fro

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#822
In reply to #821

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/12/2010 1:57 AM

Oh Crap!!

I wonder what kind of structure will survive one of these category 5 storms?

Chris

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#829
In reply to #821

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/12/2010 10:46 AM

This appears to be storm surge damage, not wind damage. From the way I read this, the containers were washed inland by the storm surge. Another reason to get the containers, especially the empty ones, away from the port area...
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#850
In reply to #821

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 6:05 AM

Cyclone Larry, Innisfail (category 5, although some claim it was a 4)
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#851
In reply to #850

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 6:11 AM

Um - tin shed did well

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#823
In reply to #814

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/12/2010 4:09 AM

Ok - Chris - you have put this up in response to the constant "single case" repetition of wind loading on a container, ignoring endless variables like lee shading and ground boundary effects and .......

BUT - let's not look at "will it fly" - Which Plainly It WILL NOT!, but look at making it "habitable".

Req 1. heat - cover with dirt.

Req 2. ventilation - fit chimneys

Req 3, light - fit light pipes

Req 4. Water - taper dirt , fit plastic, duct to reservoirs.

Changes to the "model of frustration" - cover and drains and vents and reservoir containers at ends. Could it go anywhere keyed in place by 90% buried even empty reservoirs? Not in it's best wet dream. Tie down work and resources? - deleted.

"Life style" mods?

Add mosquito resistant annexe's on front - for outdoor shaded relaxation an social interaction. (supported on owner proud bamboo)

Or what ever pissy little stupid extrapolations they throw - a new Fu*kin Brill is born.

'tis the wonder of a design mind.

and U have it.

Go Chris!

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#843
In reply to #823

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 1:34 AM

here's a better plan then. (please forgive rough sketch) this will create quite adequate storm shelters. (from quake or hurricane / tornado) it won't fly, and should be safe from mudslides if you get down to the rock.

1) dig a large hole in the ground as deep as equipment will allow. If it can accomodate 2 layers deep, that is fine too. closer to bedrock is better I think.. but one layer of containers is a start.

2) line the pit with waterproof material, either construction plastic, or welded membrane material.

3) remove all doors from shipping containers.

4) cut out back walls and side walls from 'access hallway' containers.. leaving only top, bottom, and vertical posts. add posts as necessary.

5) place the shipping containers in the ground according to the plan. (all doorways face access hallway)

6) begin backfilling.. place the ramp containers and uprights in place..nail cleats to wooden floor of ramp containers. (leave doors on ramp containers as storm doors.)

7) cover top of containers with second layer of waterproof material

8) cover over all containers with soil and seed with grass. or just pack.

9) place equipment such as gensets and water tanks in equipment container

10) use torches to cut vent holes between all containers and verticals. (equipment containers should keep doors, and have vents only to verticals.)

11) cut vents in sides of vertical containers up high.

12) add ladders to verts inside if available.

13) string large tarp or camo netting for sunscreen between verticals. (take down during storm.)

14) wire for lighting if power as materials become available. otherwise.. camping lanterns & flashlights.

15) non-perishable food can also be stored on location for potential extended duration storms.

16) battery powered weather stations, shortwave radio, satellite dishes, etc can be put up on/in verticals.

any other ideas?
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#844
In reply to #843

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 2:00 AM

Build on top of hill?

Fit large drain?

Add sanitation and ablutions?

--------------------

I like the tower idea.

Also great idea for elevating a 20 footer as a water tank on top of a buried collection capacity.

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chrisg288
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#845
In reply to #844

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 2:30 AM

great ideas there. San & Abl. added.. can't figure out proper venting for sitdown area.

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#846
In reply to #845

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 2:46 AM

what not to build.

Chris
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#847
In reply to #846

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 2:50 AM

Hey, the container to the lower right don't look too bad!

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#849
In reply to #847

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 3:43 AM

How ironic - Tornado spots the one he can't get - but buddy - on the bright rain enough on that hill and you'll score 100!!!!!!

---------------

Chris - consider the number of bums involved. 8 feet = two stalls, 40 feet = more.

Tell you what, go hire

Slumdog Millionaire (2008) - Memorable quotes

------------------------

"bad stuff"? remember the methane capture concept I posted? Throw in the vegi scraps and bob's your ferker.

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#852
In reply to #846

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 8:42 AM

It looks like the original photo that Clemson rotoscoped to get their architects rendering.

I think it looks pretty cool.

I'm just sayin'.

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#855
In reply to #846

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 10:40 AM

Chris,

must be a bunch of Brits who did this, as there "Caravans" are just like those in the picture...are they Brits? Not unusal for such fun designs.

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#854
In reply to #844

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 10:36 AM

Kyzine,

thought there was an idea to place the water tanks etc on hills and use gravity to feed to the home areas.

What Chris has envision's makes sense if carried out properly and carefully. If you visit the UK website of www.concretecanvas.co.uk you will see a material that is used by the UK MOD ...this could be used as the liner...spray with sealant like you do for house basements water proofing.

Note there use as housing as well...UK MOD have them in Afganisthan with protection barriers...similar would work in Haiti for a temp/semi-permanemt emergency structure but not as they show...have spoken with CC about just laying up on a collapasible form and just repeating etc etc....better than tents in winds up to 105 mph if curved and set up as per CC's recommendation

Like idea of using a set of containers as venting chimney as part of the complex.

Berm housing has been around for years and when covered in soils and vegetation/grass would make the homes cooler and provide outside space for childern and even vegetable gardens/allotments.

Geoff Daly NH

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#861
In reply to #854

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 11:53 AM

great idea Geoff about the concrete canvas use. I never thought of that one.. its so interesting to have a bunch of people collaborate like this. GA.

on the note of 'children and cool living space', you are right of course. I was only thinking of this structure as a safety shelter, it could be made livable. it could also be a hospital and if the structure in the ground proves sturdy, it would potentially make a reasonable attachement for above ground structures (marketplace?) to be attached to... an anchor. I also imagine painting them white on the inside... and perhaps some kind of skylights if available.

also, these underground structure ideas were stimulated by discussion with Kyzine. (even though I don't understand everything he says...)

Chris
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#880
In reply to #854

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 7:21 PM

Hi Geoff,

Ref "thought there was an idea to place the water tanks etc on hills and use gravity to feed to the home areas."

There has been a lot of discussion on the ideal water infrastructure, which normally includes reservoirs of scale up hills. However to service this you need catchment of scale, piping of quality, pumps of significant power, so fuel or electricity in scale.

Generally, I think it was agreed that it was "later" and much thought would have to go into the work to not have it vulnerable to future quakes and to not have the catchment vulnerable to contamination in the rainy season.

I have taken the "cell" approach, where each "village" is self sufficient for catchment storage and supply can be like a well, first up, develop into a 'pump-up' and have 'adequate' gravity fed pressures - eventually.

This also means (I hope) a future quake would not destroy 'the well' - though it might destroy local reticulation, and you might loose significant volume of the gravity store - the well is a fall back for a village with a bucket and some rope.

Ref concrete / lime mortar / compacted earth. This is "next dry season" along with any major earth works. So yes all good given money supply and organization.

My 'not yet answered' is the roofing of these houses. Seems to me framing and corrugated iron or better still a cyclone rated clip lock is the "not crush to death" direction. But I note none of this is around - so again - "Later".

On berm, burial, tie-down: This has been in and out of discussion since "blowing away" came up.

Chris is 'feeling his way through options" - and to an extent teasing me - but out of this is coming interesting 'interpretations' of my responses.

This underground village, as you will recall is a Chris response to the "blowing away" by massing a block of containers, to which I responded with "earth covering".

Cris is well aware that burial will need flooding consideration - but to mention a hill will bring on "mud-slide extremists", just at it did when I first mentioned the rural application.

Also Chris and I and most like bwire and Garthh, are aware such a large complex is likely to break up in an earth quake.

I.e. what you are seeing is a discussion on elements which allows discussion of options in terms of 'habitat'.

ref ventilation and light. This is previously covered way back. Chris illustrated a chimney and so on. The PET bottles were discussed and I think it's fair to say consensus was the light for cutting work and sealing and UV life, were felt more than a few side ports. In burial they would not be long/tall enough. So now we are back to earth cover, bwire linked to a commercial product illustration.

Light pipes are great.

The system can be faked with a 18" duct/pipe, alfoil, adhesive and a raise-able lid.

Ideally you would have the acrylic dome - go's to 'later' I think

Ref gardening; you would not garden in the earth cover. This jeopardizes the membrane. And a suitable soil depth - with subsoil drainage provision - is likely too much for a container roof - should it bow so puddle - so break vent seals - it will leak.

As said much in Chris's illustrations are conversational, so much of previous dialogue is taken as read. For instance, the water store above the latrines - is 'understood' not to be "the potable" supply but a separate store to enable 'flush toilets' to provide a water seal - to prevent methane and bacteria entering the complex - but happily enables methane harvesting.

Similarly the large massed earth covered complex - well shaken - would likely put dirt between the containers - resulting in higgilty piggilty complex - so an extensive dig-out and reset.

Or what I'm saying is try not to jump to exactly as illustrated.

Also as said the conversation is moving to the habitat. The livability minimums and 'not doing it twice' when it 'later arrives'.

One simple thing we should do is put eye bolts, or similar, in the roof to hang lanterns. Also hanging points for food (away from rats), but also for clothing and the usual junk. Can't really expect them to nail up shelves.

There is every possibility these 'villages will never be 'relocated' or rebuilt, or have 'later' - just be left to the under privileged.

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#882
In reply to #880

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 8:20 PM

excellent summary!
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#911
In reply to #880

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/14/2010 7:12 PM

Kyzine,

good idea to use Ali foil in a tube for a light tube...there is also a flexible wired plastic air duct used for HVAC which is also now available with a silverized interior..think this could work as well....and can be jsut cut to lenght, comes in 100 foot sections-when not stretched is 18" high for 12" diameter.

Concerning securing any raised roof...use 11/2" wide heavy duty steel cargo strapping going across these roofing sections and secured to the container top ridge/edge sections....heavy duty metal screws and washers...also go end to end as well not just across and intertwine as they cross over.

Agree on shelfing idea, hang things from the ceilng hangers, rods and sections of planking.

Geoff Daly NH

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#918
In reply to #911

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/14/2010 11:53 PM

good idea to use Ali foil in a tube for a light tube...

a seed sprouted

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#921
In reply to #911

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/15/2010 12:50 AM

Hi Geoff, I'm aware of the 'snaky tube' as that's whats used in the system, but you'd need a duct or outer tube to restrain earth or support the snake/lid/hat/dome.

So my 'shortcut' is silver the duct/tube/box and they do it, or our unskilled volunteers do it - import is catering foil - fits every duct of 'junk' variant = done.

------------------------

This water data of bwires is 'not thrilling' - Captain Moose ain't going to be pleased.

Raises - or more correctly confirms - that any water and/or collection system we design may grow legs/attract bullets.

I was wondering about the tarp's walking - now it looks certain. Hadn't really considered the water collected being stolen - be hard to take that inside and lock it up over night.....

More thought required.

Anti-theft or 'controllable water theft'.......latter might be more 'in keeping with aims' - given half seem to have none.

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#928
In reply to #921

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/15/2010 12:57 PM

I have another document, from an MIT study course, that deals with improving water supply for a couple of villages on the northern coast a few miles from Cap Haitian. It seems that in a third village there is a commercial concern selling pumped water to these villages, even though the villages have their own wells (will poor quality water). It seems that the hand pumps on the local wells have been "sabotaged" by unknown people...This suggests to me that there are some subtle political/social issues surrounding water, and any effort one takes to improve the supply for the masses may run in to "resistance" from enterpreneurs who have figured out how to make a living from this need...The rule of law may not apply.
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#937
In reply to #928

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/15/2010 3:37 PM

You'll find this interesting:

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/fellows/haiti/watertrucks.html

However the large surface water lake mentioned earlier unfortunately is saltwater.

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#941
In reply to #937

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/15/2010 4:49 PM

There is also a good chance that the ground water is salty, as well. When one starts sucking too much water out of the ground near the ocean, one gets salt water ingress to replace the water removed...
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#997
In reply to #941

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/17/2010 1:03 PM

Yes WHO reports indicate this and saltiness is above their level of restriction for potable water.

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#891
In reply to #854

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/14/2010 2:22 AM

Compared to temperate climates, the tropics, has less variation between day and night temps and humidity is high in summer. You sometimes feel as though you are swimming through the air as you walk.

This means that plenty of air movement is needed for livability.

Thermal mass and thermal insulation are not as important.

If containers are buried this has to be borne in mind when planning the burial.

In addition, the rain absolutely buckets down, so drainage is very important.
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