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spacecannon
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Shipping Container Housing

01/16/2010 12:05 PM

I have a civil engineer friend whoose dream it is to design and build shipping container housing for general use and for emergency use, like an instant city for Haiti. Im trying to motivate him to live his dream, so what does everyone think about container housing?

spacecannon

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#836
In reply to #832
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Re: non- powered tools to modify Shipping Containers for Housing

02/12/2010 11:45 AM

How nice it would be to deliver completely outfitted refurbished containers to the wet and dreary Haitians. But let's get them inside ...

What for a Square hole? Why not cover a round hole with a square fitting or two or three then trim out later, may it not be useful at this time to move the shelters where they can be readily used to stay out of the rain.

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#837
In reply to #832
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Re: non- powered tools to modify Shipping Containers for Housing

02/12/2010 12:07 PM

Last I spoke with Richard Martin who built a school there in Haiti with the containers he said the Haitians did fine with regular old cutting torches. Portable plasma torches do cost more, and it does take a bit before you get the right distance from the metal, so tips are likely to get tore up.

Guy I worked with cutting up a ship used propane, instead of acetylene for cost reasons. Worked fine.

A grinder is of course nice to have for knocking off slag.

You can run 'em off PV panels, if you don't have a genny. But you can probably do a complete modification with a cutting torch and some nuts and bolts, since you can blow a hole with a torch, if you don't have a drill.

Some of this is down the road, as now we're just trying to get the containers out the port to where they will work with whatever tents and what not are there.

Another thing that will make the cutting torches valuable shall be for both clearing the port and rubble clearing.

Sometimes you need to cut metal out of the way to clear things up so you can move stuff. I did a lot of work with a cutting torch and a forklift clearing away a bunch of scrap metal at an airport like that.

Pictures show lots of rebar in twisted tangles where I can see cutting torch work would be of aid.

I'd say aside from heavy equipment, shovels and cutting torches will be pivotal tools for awhile to come.

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Stueywright
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#840
In reply to #832
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Re: non- powered tools to modify Shipping Containers for Housing

02/12/2010 9:58 PM

Any body here ever worked on aircraft?

Only need one size hole puncher....Say 2 inch.

Arrange the holes in patterns... Rectangles. Circles. 'Open' Circles. Etc. We don't want to pass bodies through the perforations.

We're only looking for air/ ventilation/ some light.

How many 2'' holes to open up a square foot? Doesn't matter. Just do it. cheers, Stu

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Kyzine
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#841
In reply to #840

Re: non- powered tools to modify Shipping Containers for Housing

02/12/2010 10:44 PM

Nod to Packrat

Nod to Trans

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Transcendian
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#842
In reply to #840

Re: non- powered tools to modify Shipping Containers for Housing

02/12/2010 11:08 PM

Worked on aircraft. Tried hard not to put holes in them.

Not that difficult to do that.

Glad I didn't get any practice at it.

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#835

Re: Shipping Container Housing "We Are Not Here To Figure Out How Not To Do IT!

02/12/2010 11:43 AM

I think the above title should be the official credo of this collective effort.

Nod to Trans.

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chrisg288
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#866

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 12:39 PM

I marked all those ranting/raving posts as off topic and requested admin to remove them.

They are/were not helping with the overall mission, and undermine our credibility as a group. What sense does it make to participate in "Helping Others" while at the same time having a good 'ol bash at our equal participating helpers?

The CR4 guidelines (faq) states that the intention is to focus on IDEAS and not on the contributor. That line has been crossed by several particpants, and is not appropriate to this discussion. Take your issues offline in a private message. It does't belong here.

What I'm seeing is that we can't self-govern. Like children, we need help from bigger people to eliminate conflict and personal attacks within our group. I understand that this is a mission to help others, and no one is ordering us to do it. We are professionals at what we do. The following might be considered as guidelines for this thread.

  • First Do No Harm.
  • Consider the Safety of every structure we propose.
  • Stand behind what we ultimately decide on.
  • Critique only ideas and not people, based on the relative merit of each idea.

Chris
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#869
In reply to #866

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 12:53 PM

This discussion is no more important than any other on this site.

There is no need for moderation here or anywhere else on CR4

Just like the real world feel free to ignore or avoid the things that don't meet your standards

All the ex military guys [including Packy] should keep it in their pants

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chrisg288
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#872

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 1:14 PM

Here is a design for open-air court that captures rainwater. Also contained within that link is another notice about Architecture for Humanity.

Chris
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Geoff Daly
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#876
In reply to #872

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 4:56 PM

Chris,

Good find.

Architecture for Huumanity is lile CR4, was started by Cameron Sinclair and Kate Stohr in SF California (where they are based), basically all volunteer.

Cameron is in Haiti trying to encourage the agencies to think outside the box like the CR 4 community has been doing.

Spoke last week with a Dave in there office and shipping containers were considered but they were looking at the long term for making better and more sustainable shelters, but liked our concept and was going to visit the CR4 site.

Geoff Daly NH

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#874

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 3:00 PM

Idea OK, but not exactly new. Redundant shipping containers are have been used for low cost housing for years.
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Geoff Daly
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#877
In reply to #874

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 5:02 PM

Guest,

if you are going to continue commenting, please sign up and join in as a real contributing member...we all know that for the past 10 to 15 + yrs shipping containers haver had various uses for storage/living in etc.

so join by signing up and contribute openly

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chrisg288
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#875

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 4:28 PM

Here's a whole pile of stuff I've come across in my searching... related to relief housing.

http://www.suffield.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/Research-recherche/Products-produits/MilEng/RD2006_08/index_eng.html

http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/field/
http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/wastewater-treatment/
http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/infrastructure/
http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/hvac/
http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/logistics/
http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/transport/
http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/field_hospitals/

http://www.domeshelter.com/

relief tents site and 'method of joining tarps with 'grip clip.'

http://www.shelter-systems.com/relieftents/shelter-fabric.html

this one is really interesting and has potential as good hurricane shelter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesco_bastion

In addition to just regular manual sandbag construction. There should be lots of extra heavy bags around that can be filled with earth/sand/rock.. and stacked around any existing shelters that are still standing that may protect them from hurricanes.

here's another plan..

http://earthbagbuilding.wordpress.com/2009/03/10/tube-filling-machine/

Chris
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ky
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#879
In reply to #875

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/13/2010 5:12 PM

Good work Chris

I like the grip clips. They are easy to understand and could be readily improvised with.

Looks a bit untidy but who cares if they can provide shelter and be used by someone with two left hands.

Hope all goes well, Ky.

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2buyitnow
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#889

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/14/2010 12:40 AM

My company builds industrial enclosures for the electrical power industry. Over the years I have been approached on many occasions asking for a cheap box for their equipment. However, when the specification actually is written for how they want the structure to perform environmentally the shipping container always falls short. Usually by the time all the modifications are made to to bring it up to par with the specification it would be easier to start from scratch.

What is usually lost on the bargain hunter is the shipping container performs really well at what it is designed to do. Contain goods in a shippable shape for easy handling over the road and still be stackable for overseas shipment. It performs exactly as designed. As a can.

Things they don't do well (without expensive modifications):

  • Insulate from weather
  • Convenient egress for persons
  • Accommodate widths other than 8'
  • Varied floor loading options.
  • Allow the mounting plumbing and electrical that is concealed.
  • Modifications that do not require metal working tools.
  • Foot prints that are not long and narrow and in one of the standard sizes
  • Outside is not visually appealing

The best alternate use I have seen is where these were used as the walls themselves and were stacked like Legos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NomadicMuseumSantaMonica.jpg
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Transcendian
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#890
In reply to #889

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/14/2010 1:35 AM

How many alternatives have you got on hand better then shipping containers at this time?

We have looked at this and I can tell you that Habitaflex has some great designs.

I spoke with them early on. They didn't have one ready to ship.

Numbers count, speed counts, price counts.

Already been there.

Have you and your company got even a thousand strong boxes that fold up and are wired and have electrical and toilets and showers in them that can be put up in Haiti over the next six months?

There are thousands of shipping containers already in Haiti.

They will work for now, and will work later for a good while.

If you've got a better building, that's great.

I pointed out in about the third post on this thread everything that was wrong with shipping containers a lot better than you have.

Turns out they are just the best thing to use right now in light of the situation, and what is available for all of the factors in play.

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Geoff Daly
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#910
In reply to #889

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/14/2010 6:50 PM

2buyitnow,

you are correct about your side of the industry for portable elctrical enclosurers, revovles around "have not seen it in a book or standards so will not work as we understand from what we have done for the last fifty years plus......just look at the old NEMA spec compared to the IEC and Harmonization of codes towards a more unified world standard....old stuffy ideas and methods do not last long as those in DC or Geneva want...proples lives are at stack, not there precious playbooks and bureuacractic jobs, they work for the people who pay there salaries.

We have in the CR4 community, all tried to think outside the box and so does everyone who wants something and not always what they have always used...is always an easy way out for those who are lazy..."status Quo"..."do not rock the Boat", "not invented here".

So lets keep pushing the envelope with all ideas...so far we seem to be affecting the powers to be by being persistent with our ideas for Shipping Container use for Shelter in Haiti.

They have more than 7,000 + on the ground and moving equipment, yet the people on the ground keep insisting "tents" are the only solution...short term maybe but who wants to go back to the old ways when they leave?

So we cannot give up, but are slowly getting a cogiant lsit together which many who we have been in touch agree and have started to spread the word.

So 2buyitnow keep putting forward ideas and we can only evantually prevail....call me the eternal optimiist.

Geoff Daly NH

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2buyitnow
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#986
In reply to #910

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/17/2010 9:09 AM

Sorry, did not intend to sound like a stick in the mud. It was just a list of the challenges for someone in the business of true metal houses of a similar gauge material had run into that might be something to consider.

Has there been consideration of instead of using the unit to contain people and things outright what about using the structure as "THE" wall it self. Sort of like building a castle and your containers are the blocks.

Tommy
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cwarner7_11
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#989
In reply to #986

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/17/2010 11:41 AM

This is a good idea, especially considering that you could fill the containers to increase resistance to wind forces...the only issue is, what do you do for hurricane-proofing the roof over the living space? With some of the ideas Chris has put forward, this is part of the concept- open living spaces between the containers, but the containers being the storm shelters in emergencies...
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Kyzine
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#1008
In reply to #989

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/17/2010 8:16 PM

309

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#900

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/14/2010 2:00 PM

For those interested in anchoring requirements for hurricane resistance, I have presented some preliminary results of a CFD analysis of wind effects on:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50522

Chris, you may want to have a look at this- we may want to pass some of your village layouts through a similar analysis...
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Garthh
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#979

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/17/2010 1:58 AM

I'm posting the links below for all the various threads from

CR4 a International engineering forum sponsored by

Global Spec http://www.globalspec.com/

Be aware that CR4 is an open forum where even guests can post.

The conversation can & does go off topic from time to time, which is all part of the open design process...

Please feel free to join in any & all of the discussions

The original thread Shipping Container Housing is over 900 posts long

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/49244#newcomments

We started four threads for more detailed discussions after it became clear the original thread was getting too long

How to Install & Anchor Shipping Container Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50522#newcomments

Methods For Installing Doors & Windows In Shipping Container Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50523#newcomments

Drainage, Sanitation & Other Issues Related To Shipping Container Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50525#newcomments

Potable Water In Conjunction W/ Shipping Container as Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50537#newcomments

The new Blog started by Clemson University:

http://www.seed-haiti.net/?page_id=2

Please feel free to contact me should you need any help with any of CR4's features
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AussieBob
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#1006

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/17/2010 6:10 PM

Container Movement

In days gone by we used construction site buildings and equipment modules with skids mounted on the underside so they could be moved without the need for fancy gear. A little like this (in principle, but not exactly)

It would seem that for Haiti, the simpler the better. For the containers, the skids could be temporary for movement and simply slotted in to the existing locking attachments at each corner, currently used to lock them on truck transport.

The skids could be an I-beam or as simple as a length of 3" pipe. Jack it up to attach and jack it up to remove when in position.

It doesn't need to be this fancy but the same principle

Keep it simple!
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#1007
In reply to #1006

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/17/2010 6:35 PM

Bob, now that's what I was waiting for. Everybody's forgotten that they have perfectly good attachment points/sockets welded into the corners.

They are so good , in fact , that just two will 'hang' a filled container.

They are where all support/structural forces are designed to enter the container body. If the vessels need to be locked together , or fastened to another structure these are the points at which to do it.

Pics are a good find too. GA.

Stu

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#1016
In reply to #1007

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/18/2010 12:16 AM

Everybody!!!!

321

And nearly verbatim in 973

(snow board 'imagining aid' added )

<end of fake rant>

<yep they are nice picks>

However in our context "over run' by the load is not as bigger issue as on snow, so you don't need the turntable and solid draw bar.

As said earlier - tow by chain attached to front skids - this, if cable and blocks can be found - also enables steering of front skids (fit round spigot to front skids).

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#1019
In reply to #1016

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/18/2010 12:48 AM

so how's that [skids] gonna work after 17" of rain?

I suppose it's not clear, on the installation thread, when I speak of bolting together containers, I mean using the built-in locking points...
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#1022
In reply to #1019

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/18/2010 2:14 AM

Garthh,

Good idea using the biult in locking with the exception that the locking points are not functional in an orientation necessary of your design.

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#1023
In reply to #1019

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/18/2010 2:46 AM

About as well as the tow vehicle.

Well skids will be better, tug may struggle to move itself.

Yeah you can cleat across the side holes or do a two spigot joiner.

They manage to link them on ships ok - maybe research that box of tricks a bit - could save a buck or two or a lot of messing about re inventing the wheel.

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#1024
In reply to #1023

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/18/2010 3:46 AM

Well not always;

Some interesting forces going on in that lot.

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#1026
In reply to #1024

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/18/2010 3:52 AM

That's a great series & shows just how effective the latching hardware is
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#1027
In reply to #1026

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/18/2010 4:52 AM

Precisely - and other "physical properties" when you look at each layer in the stern on shot.

But; one mother of a storm (or a corkscrew swell and a descendant of Captain Smith of Titanic thinking, in command)

I guess who will get what, out of the series, is "to be seen".

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#1029
In reply to #1027

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/18/2010 7:43 AM

Sorta supports most of what I've said, I guess????? N'est pas? Stu.

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#1032
In reply to #1029

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/18/2010 11:58 AM

Hi Stuey,

We're trying to hash out some cheap & dirty moving & foundation schemes

Here:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50522

Please join us, you know all this stuff, your practicle knowledge is invaluable...
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#1039
In reply to #1023

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/18/2010 9:58 PM

The designed locking mechanism cost about $250 ea. corner so chain is often used instead except on ships.

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#1028
In reply to #1006

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/18/2010 7:33 AM

GA

Have moved heaps this way.

Works well.

This is what I meant earlier when I talked about skidding into position.
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#1036

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/18/2010 2:00 PM

I don't think this profile was posted. It shows building houses from containers, and they are welded together.

On another note..

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#1037
In reply to #1036

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/18/2010 4:33 PM

Chris,

Good find.

The house is fastened the correct way.

The roof is for both insulation and aesthetic. It'll be the first thing to go in the big blow. But who gives a hoot, the structure is waterproof without it.

This structure is immensely strong and so resistant to capsize it's not worth thinking about.

(the boat however????.......)

We sit our containers on pins cast in the concrete slab bases, which engage the corners. To lock these down I've devised a method of bolting through the pins so as to create a shear load in the unlikely event of an uplift.

There have been good solutions to the problem of fixing down, posted, but needs to be one adopted as a standard, as materials available allow. The vessels only need to be fixed down at each corner (see ship pic).

Stu

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#1040

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/19/2010 12:26 AM

It would appear that the powers that be still think tents and tarps are going to save these people from hurricanes:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61H59Q20100219?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=76
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#1041
In reply to #1040

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/19/2010 12:48 AM

We need to rename this thread.

From now on it needs to be put into the commercial space as Steel Tents for Sale.

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#1042
In reply to #1041

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/19/2010 1:40 AM

Hey guys,

Going back to the pic and link of the wood framed roof atop the welded containers, you don't necessarily have to "lose" the wood framed roof in a hurricane.

All you have to do is use Simpson Hurricane clips/anchors to attach the bearing ends of each wooden truss to a double 2x6 wood top plate that can be bolted down to the top perimeter of the "house/shelter".

Several Hurricane clips/anchors are made by the company, depending on the design loads. Most use common penny nails or are supplied with a small bag of specialized nails. Actually very simple to install. Anyone with a hammer can do it!

BTW, most US states along the Gulf Coast and up along the Eastern seaboard required the installation of Hurricane clips/anchors for securing wood framed roofs to the building walls.

Just a though in case you want to go this route of wooden roofing in the future,,,,,actually not a bad way to shed-off all that precipitation.

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#1043
In reply to #1042

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/19/2010 2:19 AM

The gutters and down pipes might be a bit under-size for Haiti - depending on how much of the water you want - that is..

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#1050
In reply to #1042

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/19/2010 4:38 PM

CaptMoosie,

good idea meets all national codes as now written for new homes in tornado/hurricane areas.

Would it also be better to make like a Haiwian home with an extended roof coming to a point (like a prow) and leave some gaps for air circulation and pressure relief... put angled slates on the end prows? (with vermin mesh on the outside?).

For rain catching, lets got with the idea Clemson have of 55 gal drums and maybe a container for just watering vegetable gardens etc (sunk into the ground and appropriate drainge run offs built using the Concrete Canvas idea for channels feeding the containers).

Geoff Daly NH

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#1051
In reply to #1050

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/19/2010 7:07 PM

"Now is the winter of or dis con tent?" Kris. Thanks. It's been rough this past year, and few months.

Far as hurricane clips, they are code in where I did carpentry over the past 10 years. Was funny when the figured out how to make the clips that worked right hand and left hand, instead of one you just could use from either side.

Save me time getting stuff for the crews to only have to buy hurricane clips, instead of right hand and left hand sets.

As far as running a 2by6 bolted into the shipping containers to get the roof to hold in high winds, using hurricane clips to hold wood, I'm not for that.

I'm not for building with wood in Haiti.

I've run self taping metal screws into a lot of metal, and for Haiti, anything technical that cuts wood out of the equation is recommended in Haiti, from what I can tell about the Gestalt.

Even if wood was plentiful, I'd still want to attach the hurricane clips with self tapping screws instead of running a wooden band, for it would be quicker even if a nail costs 3 cents and a self tapping metal screw costs 11 cents.

Screwguns are amazing in their power and even variety for now you can get even hammer drills that will get in as tight or tighter than possible with a palm nailer.

I've not seen all of the Clemson water systems. Do they really work out by the numbers? -or could be get as good and more from a welded shut, half cut shipping container with a dual purpose tank cover and catchment sand flowthru or other treatment feedpipe?

How many 55 gallon drums compete with a Shipping Container Water Tank in the Courtyard, and are they available?

I do wonder how many trucks of what sorts are available for the work that we have discussed.

Square miles to cover, and roads to use, and weight to move factored to the time, I really wonder how many of 7,000 raw containers could be moved to where in 4 months?

120 times 8 equals 960.

960 hours.

7,000 pieces to move or occupy in 960 at 7 men per unit is 6,720 man hours?

Damn these word problems!

Okay, at once decided from start it is decided to move 5000 shipping containers to priority points, then to other areas available, how many in say 120 days, could be properly placed to mitigate further the disasters?

If there were 7000 trucks to haul them all working on one day within 4 miles, they might be all delivered in one morning, Right?

What is now the real numbered reality of how much can be done with what is available donated, bought, or stolen?

Shovels!

Yes ow yes, I remember sleeping in a ditch.

What are the best designs that Haitians might start digging with shovels to live in?

Of course it has crossed my mind that really when you have many many thousands of unemployed people living in slums, and no great machines, it is not out of the question to pay them to dig latrines and whatever needed with shovels.

It is true that you need food and clothing and shelter, and my even get by on just food.

However the goal really of artists and engineers is to achieve and participate in civilized life.

Anyway I have some math problems I need some help with.

7000 times 1000 equals 700 thousand?

So for the RED CROSS or some other NGO to buy all the 7 thousand shipping containers at 1000 a piece that are reported to be in Port-au-Prince would cost base 700 thousand dollars?

147 million dollars is allocated for tents.

Steel Tents. They need to spend some money on steel tents...

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#1052
In reply to #1051

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/19/2010 7:21 PM

Trans,

Except for the math part, I concur with what you said. The Haitians I talked to , basically said, "every bodies hurtin, send something, ANYTHING"

It would be good to move from a conceptualizing, to a scheduling and implementation phase.

Much idle manpower now, psychologically good to put persons to work improving their situation.

Pac

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#1059
In reply to #1052

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/20/2010 11:44 AM

Any other bits of information you can get from the Haitians you know would be of interest.

I am particularly interested now in understanding the history of Cite Soleil.

I am trying to figure out the exact nature of the Export Processing Zone. I know some about Free Trade Zones, but am not so familiar with what is called an Export Processing Zone.

Cite Soleil is apparently a Slum Stronghold populated by Haitians that moved to Port-au-Prince for work at the Export Processing Zone, but were put out of work due to the international withdrawal of aid when Aristide was removed from office.

Apparently this is an enclave of Aristide supporters.

I am aware that Mr. Aristide has recently put out a book that is anti Nafta, and Cafta, whereas Bill Clinton was very pivotal in advancing those two programs.

Therefore I am interested in the dynamic that may effect the relationship between Aristide and Clinton, and wondering if it is true that the poorest of the poor in Port-au-Prince may only respond to the leadership Mr. Aristide represents?

Cite Soleil, is where the armed gangs are. Cite Soleil turned to crimes like Kidnapping when their jobs dried up due to international actions beyond their control.

What some have on this thread have wondered about is whom might be most likely to through force take over desirable structures as might appear.

These may well be those gangs who are living in Cite Soleil, and I am trying to figure out how to get their support for our project, as opposed to maintain what amounts to now what appears as a mini war in the city of Port-au-Prince.

The residents of Cite Soleil represent either a problem or a solution to manpower needs. It is notable that no aid was gotten to them for two weeks after the earthquake, and somehow they have survived.

Who is the Gang Leadership of Cite Soleil? Can they be employed to lead their gangs in works projects?

If Ban Ki Moon can essentially put Clinton and Bush in control of the country, I see no reason that it might not be a very good idea to add Mr. Aristide to that team in light of what I continue to learn about Haiti, and Haitian politics.

How your Haitian friends see my take on things is of extreme interest to me.

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#1053
In reply to #1051

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/19/2010 11:25 PM

Trans,

the Captain...Roger Penske has just donated 40 of his Penske trucks to President Clinton's cause ..taken from Miami by a privately owned WWII TLC had to make two trips...vehicles are in good condition, To be used for Food/Water distribution.

So there are some of your trucks...rest are around the island, some quite big and heavy....just need U-Hauls and Ryder to do same along with Ford, Chrysler, GM who have plenty of big P/U trucks left over form last year...even Toyota has some as well,

Geoff

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#1061
In reply to #1053

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/20/2010 3:05 PM

40 times 120 eqauls 4,800, so if everyday for 4 months one truck of the forty moved one shipping container 48 hundred would be moved, potentially providing shelter for 28 thousand 800, at 6 persons per shipping container.

Then we have the other option and consideration of dedicating a good number of shipping containers to living and working spaces right there at the Port of Port-au-Prince.

What work, and whom will pay the wages for work to be done right there at the Port?

Shipping and receiving is one natural to a port.

Another may well be advancing the state of repairs and usefulness of the port.

Another would be the shipping container industry.

Penske trucks are typically hydrdralic clutch straightbacks in the 18 to 24 foot box sizes.

How these particular trucks can be rigged to move the "Steel Tents" is not yet known to me.

It is true that there is some danger that the shipping container could run into the rear of the truck or tractor if simply being dragged around by a chain.

This danger increases if we do get wheels on them of a jury rigged fashion.

So then it is called into question what rigging either exists, or must be created to make it possible for the new known trucks to move shipping containers?

Further at a granted unlikely best case scenario in the time remaining prior to the beginning of the Storm season, we are looking at shelter for 28,000 people.

What this means is that to maximize the potential of shipping containers, for now, almost all are best to be made into Service Compounds.

Food Distribution points then are natural points of First Delivery and construction, to protect the Food, and provide shelter in the event of something like a hurricane, or new tremors and earthquake events.

It is probably sensible to move the Hospitals to the same place as where the food is since the injured can't travel far to collect food.

Plus doctors and medics are busy, and need food to work.

This represents strategic thinking as far as the time and resources we have been discussing here. It also represents a path of least resistance as regards property rights and established Control Zones.

We have moved towards Compounds created with the Shipping Containers, and just need now to codify the Strategy, that will dictate the tactics to be applied.

Micro Infrastructure Systems are advanced now to the point of needing names.

Haitian Complete Community Center Compounds of the Haitian Republic, your new Grocery Store, Hospital, and School Economic and Social Center is brought to you, by yourselves!

In the Bath Breaking Thread, Grocery stores came up.

About the Favorite GroceryStore of all time in my travels was the Penfield NY Wegmans Citital. That Wegmans had everything and of course was attached to the Chase Pitkin Hardware Store, that also had everything.

Input from Wegmans would be really cool at this point. I love that company.

I love the US Post Office, Wegmans, and the American Automobile Association.

I have suggested that if you want to get things to Haiti, just mail them to Haiti Via the US Post Office using made up common Haitian names and hat picked addresses.

Certainly this would increase work for the Haitian Post Office, if they have one.

You really want to know the way to get things done in the world, check with the Postal Services. If Lee had listened to Regan, the Post Master General of the Confederates State, and not neglected Vicksburg, going instead to Gettysburg, the South might have won the US Civil War.

I think of Costner star role movies, The Postman, is under appreciated.

So we have our food and mail, hospital, school, shelter compounds set up at the already food distribution zones and need to integrate that with private industry food sellers dependent on markets to make their legitimate livings selling, not giving away their produce.

Hence we have an essential conflict that can only be rectified by giving free market free rights to store stalls to make up for their competition for sales.

One option is actually to pay them to give away what is really their market.

To summate this post, I am suggesting that we concentrate now on Compound Steel Tent Zones. Individual and single family units must be abandoned as a focus now.

All designs and tactics must aim at Public Place Compounds to properly use the resources and the time dictated by Seasonal conditions out of human control, and only to be wreckened with.

I see recommending forthwith that a Port Headquarters be established or simply contacted and communication lines and protocols be set between "us", whoever we are and those working at the Port-au-Prince port at least know of our suggestions.

We are looking to find and communicate with those individuals at the Port who actually do have the power to direct what is done with the shipping containers on their Control Zone.

In fact it may well be that the owners of the Shipping Containers ought now be required to pay Dock workers of Haiti for the work required to move their property out of the way.

I think you can make a good case that the owners of the Shipping Containers already owe Haitians recompense for damage done by unsecured containers, and costs associated with moving those that had to be moved to make the port operational.

I'll bet if you put an accountant on the case they would say that the owners of the shipping containers in Haiti owe money to Haiti for storage, and clearing of the containers equal or more than the value of the property, so they can either pay up, or cede ownership of the Containers (Steel Tents) or get a bill for the necessity that Haiti has full use of its very important port.

In other words, if Haitians can't have the containers, then owners better pay to either store them on valuable space, or pay to ship them back to China.

A compromise may be achieved in that the owners may be interested in the conversion industry being moved in part to Haiti, which does have a supply of labor suited and situated for the work.

In the end it is good to look at all factors when attempting to get something actually done.

I am not an attorney or an accountant, but I do think they are just as important as anybody else when really trying to get something done.

One day some lawyers office will post to Commercial Space on CR4.

I'd love to see the test for the Bar to get an Esquire in International Law.

The ownership of the shipping containers in Haiti may well be skewed by precepts of Maritime Law.

Haitian Law is Roman Common Law, I think? I don't know how that works yet...

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#1075
In reply to #1061

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/21/2010 9:48 PM

Penske trucks are typically hydrdralic clutch straightbacks in the 18 to 24 foot box sizes.

How these particular trucks can be rigged to move the "Steel Tents" is not yet known to me.

I think the P trucks are now mostly automatic shift and a tow-bar of sorts could be easily fabricated so the container may be fastened to it.

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#1056
In reply to #1051

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/20/2010 1:34 AM

There are vehicles; remember that pre-quake domestic water was delivered by truck but the roads would best be described as pre-1950 at best. Travel around in country requires 4wd and streams need be forded too. But the majority of the water tanker trucks could easily provide the power to move containers and they can help with dust control too.

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#1054
In reply to #1050

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/19/2010 11:31 PM

Adding roofs to containers would increase the wind loading so total tie-down problem. I think such should be re-run by cwarner, especially a large prow design.

To all appearances Clemson is yet to reach post 351 and the subsequent inputs and problems with flows (and the previous contents of local drums unknowns).

Ground channels are an invitation to contamination by known to be highly polluted surface soil and surface water runoff in storms.
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#1055
In reply to #1054

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/19/2010 11:43 PM

good thinking about the roof load.. but I really don't understand what you are saying about 351.. please elaborate more clearly what you mean for us challenged types.

Thanks,

Chris
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#1057
In reply to #1050

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/20/2010 1:55 AM

While some uses still exist for employment of steel 55ga drums most include shipping containment of poisons etc.. The greater majority of 55ga drums now are plastic and much them would require a fee to use in addition to the fact the plastic composition is not conducive to potable water use.

I suggest to not be easily derailed from uses of container or frac tanks which may feed the Clemson systems well too.

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#1058
In reply to #1057

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/20/2010 9:57 AM

Hey Guys,

Geoff, I like the idea of constructing Hawaiian-style roofs, but wouldn't that type of construction be a little too much to construct? Gable roof pre-fabricated wood trusses like a Pratt type truss are the easiest and cheapest to build and erect......the lesser the "stick-building" the better.

I was going to suggest attaching the Hurricane Clips to the containers with self-drilling self-tapping sheet metal screws, but you guys got to it before I did! GOOD CALL & GA!!!!

BUT, by using the self-drilling self-tapping screws, you'll need a lot of screws per connection, depending of course on the calculated design uplift load: if you have 20 Ga. clip or thinner and are using a #10 screw, the Tabulated Allowable Shear per screw is only 186# (several references). Also, you'll need corded electric powered screw guns. I doubt that many of even the newest 18 VDC Lithium-Ion cordless screws guns have the necessary torque to drive a self-tapping sheet metal screw. therefore, we're back to having portable gen-sets w/ AC/DC power inverters or AC gens to power the electrical toys.....

PS: Should we start a blog entitled "ELECTRICAL TOOLS FOR HAITIANS", as in looking for power tool donations, sort of like in the vein of the USMC "TOYS FOR TOTS" campaign??????? *GRINZ***

PPS: I GET TO PLAY SANTA CLAUS BECAUSE I'M ROTUND ENOUGH, and have a gray beard to boot!!!! hehehehehehe

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#1062
In reply to #1058

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/20/2010 3:08 PM

CaptMossie,

we could use recycled/strightned rebar (generates jobs for people to recover the rebar from the crushed concrete and straigthen through a set of rollers made by Haitians) made into hoops (same as used on the open top containers..but wider to over hang the edges) then use 2x4's lash wired over top and then plywood or corrugated fixed along with the Hurricane brackets and 4x4's going onto the top of the container and use 18/8 lag 5/8" bolts to secure to sides and tops......being curved topped less windage resistance and extend the ends like a prow to give front and back rain protection like a porch...but also with slats for air/cooling movement...can leave air gap on sidea as well...need Mozie mesh to keep critters out.

Rather than a conventional ridged roof.

As far as the use of the Concrete Canvas for building drainage type ditches as the Guest has commented about.

This is exactly why they are used..sturdy and easily cleaned even when debris is there....so not really contribuying to any further contamination....in fact if done properly would also reduce erosion and gullying as all water would basically be in the concrete ditch.

Geoff Daly NH

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#1063
In reply to #1062

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/20/2010 5:56 PM

What is the cost of this roof on a roof?

Where are the materials?

------------------------------

Research in the thread has revealed the ground is widely contaminated with raw human waste and garbage.

What height does a drain or catchment have to be above ground, to not receive splashing during a tropical down pour?

How will your concrete fabric be suspended or configured to avoid this?
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#1064
In reply to #1063

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/20/2010 6:47 PM

Geoff,

I'm afraid you lost me there friend regarding all this straightened-out rebar, 2x4's and 4x4's.

I'm not really visualizing what you're trying to do, which is????

Sorry, I've been sort out of touch with the blog lately....sorta down still about being nixed travelling to Haiti (If need be) by the surgeon regarding my heel wound....this week, it's gotten worse instead of better.......Doc did much more debridment (sp?) of the wound yesterday....really Outpatient Surgery where they scrape the dead flesh off the live flesh without giving you any sort of Local to kill the pain!!! Hey, just like getting shot in a sense or getting zapped by a Cuban hand grenade as in my case......So, I've been living on some very strong pain management meds since then, I can't even walk on the left foot at all nor put pressure on it to bear, even with the use of a walking cane. Truly SUX Moose Juice if ya ask me!!! At this rate it'll be months before the wound actually closes-up and the Docs apply a dermal-graft atop it. Geeezzz, really wanted to sit down with the General and hash things out....also talk about Army Chit since he and I have chewed the same dirt in many places CONUS.

That's it for now....will be watching the blog....but first comes watching the Olympic Games tonight.... ***GRINZZZ***

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#1082
In reply to #1063

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/21/2010 11:01 PM

Guest,

Have you ever been in the tropics?

If not do not worry....Haiti is like a bomb site from WWII right now....rubble everywhere nothing has been cleared up or removed except for major roads. Until this is done and the drainage ditches cleaned out or replaced...dirt will always flow, especially in a rough mud/stoned stream bed...just keeps eroding.

Thus a "concrete canvas" material was specifically designed around the UK MOD requirements...visit www.concretecanvas.co.uk and look carefuly through there design uses..the drainage trenches can be any shape and depth and with a lo or hi lip to the edge.....these will probably be 80% dry throughout the year anyway.

Remember in many cases the area will be rebuilt and surrounding roads/paths will be covered with some of the 24 Million cu yds of fallen structure materail crushed up and rolled. So if the future rebuilding is done properly, then the run off will be contained...but will need strong deteremined leadreship and will of the Haitian poeple wanting a better life.

If they see this happening they will not want to go back to ther old shanty town existance...a container shleter can offer a superior existance and include the infrastructure of drains etc ...you will see a differnce with a year or two.

Then they will want to go on and start there own industry based around many of the ideas posted on CR4....can you imagine Haiti exporting finished container homes to NEW ORLEANS>>>>shame on FEMA

lets be positive..."give them a chance and help and they will succeed" Cecil Rhodes of South Africa 1898.

Geoff Daly NH

PS; corrugated sheets are a major import into Haiti anyway..is cheap

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#1069
In reply to #1058

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/21/2010 3:53 PM

I think y'all are stressing way to far this roof lift issue. Put up some shade and if the big wind takes it; oh well use readily available materials so there not hard to find and replace and make'em all the same so folks don't need to look for their own.

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#1060
In reply to #1057

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/20/2010 2:36 PM

bwire,

Frac tanks we have discussed before and agree...could be positioned in a community and gang - piped for allowing people to fill portable containers as needed...then use the water tanker trucks to replenish as needed from a central water generation source...Frac tanks are also enclosed and used for Potable water in remote sites, have used in Nevada at a mining site...held 23,000 gallons when full.

Some of the newer Rheem Blue plastic 200 liter drums are OK for Potable water if marked HDPE or PE/HDPE (not sure of diff, maybe made as two blowings)

Geoff Daly NH

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#1044
In reply to #1041

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/19/2010 3:49 AM

"Now is the winter of our discount tent"

OK - doesn't quite work if you follow the quote, but it was seen in a shop many years ago.

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#1045
In reply to #1044

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/19/2010 4:12 AM

I Hiati this part

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#1046
In reply to #1045

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/19/2010 5:13 AM

Raise you 6

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#1047
In reply to #1046

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/19/2010 5:26 AM

Nice - got steel in too

How about Platinum?

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#1048
In reply to #1047

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/19/2010 5:30 AM

I am so going to get badded by Sharkles. If I ain't back, check last post's by Kris (made just before your link). Heck, somebody had to say it.

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#1049
In reply to #1047

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/19/2010 5:32 AM

Fantastic - aren't they - lost you for hours now - Ay

Whole new world - We could make the economy so work just on the music.

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#1065

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/20/2010 11:59 PM

Guys,

if you have GOOGLE EARTH...they have updated there prior Sat photo of Haiti.

More deatail and even more equipment on the ground and there is a ship off the coast off loading containers and trailers onto several barges and LC's.

Just spent three hours going over the area now more than 7,000+ containers in and around the area some appear to be Mil and others in NGO areas...all on trailers.

Geoff Daly NH

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#1066
In reply to #1065

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/21/2010 12:20 AM

1063 and 1065.

Okay. Movie to 16 points please?

At the schools, what is going on?

Is Radio good enough, or is TV required?

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#1067
In reply to #1066

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/21/2010 12:26 PM

News in The Week magazine reports Preval says it will take at least three years to clear out the rubble of Port-au-Prince and rebuild.

Aftershocks continue and three children were killed in a school collapse.

Only tarps are being distributed.

The UN plans to build temporary shelters with corrugated-iron roofs.

I wonder what standard designs they have for that strategy?

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#1068

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/21/2010 2:22 PM

I started a thread question in the General Category asking what were good shelter designs using corrugated iron.

I looked them up after posting the question.

There are the Nissen Hut, and Quonset hut designs, that apparently can be put up right quickly.

These designs go back to WWI apparently.

I wonder what designs we might know of that are improved?

The report I read stated that the UN was going to build temporary shelters using corrugated iron for the roofs.

It did not say they were going to build Quonset huts, which may or may not be the case.

I am open to building with corrugated iron, especially in light of the numbers and lack of apparent adoption of the use of shipping containers so far.

The Nissen Huts were reported to be earthquake resistant, but overall not particularly comfortable.

I didn't get a chance to see the Buckminster Fuller designs.

I hate to admit it but, actually the UN may well be on the right track depending on what structure designs they build, or direct the building of.

We, and certainly I have moved from stand alone individual shipping container use strategies towards Compound Designs.

My best estimate for shelter using the containers over a period of 120 days, as only shelter was estimated to at best provide shelter for 28 thousand people.

After grasping that number, I turned completely to a sort of Community Center Strategy concerning the use of Shipping Containers.

Depending on the shelter designs that use the corrugated iron I suggest we determine how to integrate the Shipping Container designs and concepts, with either whatever is fiat accompli according to UN plans, or be able to make some suggestions.

Gottah admit that maybe there are some people at the UN with some brains since the hut designs can apparently be built in record times, and do not represent some of our thorny transportation issues related to shipping containers.

I do recall that Chrisg mentioned Quonset Huts a good while back in the course of this discussion.

As far as shipping container buildings are concerned, it does look like they could well be more permanent than Quonset Hut type buildings.

I think we need to continue to push for shipping container usage, but emphasize buildings made from them that serve public functions, such as Schools, Hospitals, and Food distribution Centers.

I am extremely curious now to find out exactly what the UN plans to build with corrugated iron, and if anybody knows specifically, please post either here, or on the new thread where I put up the question.

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#1070
In reply to #1068

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/21/2010 8:27 PM

http://www.housall.com/

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#1072
In reply to #1068

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/21/2010 8:56 PM

Russel,

there is really no difference between a Nissen or Quonset hut other than the Nissen Hut goes back to WW1 when the british built them then the US Navy? had them built somewhere in RI near the town of Qounset Point.

Anyway both use a corrugated steel structure but with bigger and deeper ribs than regular roofing corrugated sheets and Heavier gauge...normally min 8 to 10 gauge thick or more (aircraft hangers by Hexaport are 1/4" to 3/8 " thk...and heavy and center bolted).

You could build a similar design with regular corrugated but need a curved support ring ro bolt/screw too.....yes would be safer than a tent, but still need a shade cover to reduce heat build up. www.concretecanvas.co.uk

Good idea though.

Can also achieve same results easier and quicker using "concrete canvas" and does not require a shade cover....just paint white for refecltion of heat.

Geoff Daly NH

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#1077
In reply to #1072

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/21/2010 9:54 PM

Geoff-

Your concrete canvas is looking better all the time- espcially since you can still work with it in the rains...
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#1078
In reply to #1068

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/21/2010 10:11 PM

As far as shipping container buildings are concerned, it does look like they could well be more permanent than Quonset Hut type buildings.

Having lived in a few Quonset huts I don't think you could argue that successfully, Quonset are very comfortable and durable in tropical conditions. Ours had awning type screened windows but was only one bath and four staterooms, 20'x16' open area plus full kitchen.

Quonset stlye corrugated buildings perform well in high wind conditions also

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#1081
In reply to #1078

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/21/2010 10:33 PM

How many quonset huts can you erect in 3 months? Can you get the materials to Haiti in a timely fashion? How many people will these that you can build protect from the weather?
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#1083
In reply to #1081

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/21/2010 11:05 PM

Charlie,

If you really want too know will give you the answer tomorrow late PM.

Geoff

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#1071

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/21/2010 8:55 PM

The U.N is saying they'll be building corrugated steel roof shelters, eh?

Well, that all fine and dandy if there is another earthquake, and I'm sure there will be plenty of good sized aftershocks.....maybe. It'd a good possibility that a good portion of these makeshift shelters will be still standing? We shall see. We shall see.

I for one do not think there's much for brain power present in the UN. These tinfoil corrugated roofed shelters may be fine in an earthquake, but definitely not good at resisting the wind forces generated by a high-Category Hurricane. Basically, I see these makeshift shelters flying apart resulting in sending many many pieces of corrugated steel sheets flying around like many deadly guillotines. Then there maybe the total or partial lack of structural rigidity and strength of these shelters to even deflect airborne lumber and other materials. I for one would not want to be inside or near one of them because they'll become deathtraps for all......even Quonset Huts designed by WHO to WHAT standards? Some think tank committee in the UN come up with this hairbrain idea???? Or did our infamous FEMA want to be's come up with it alongside their UN counterparts???

DANGEROUS THINKING & THOUGHT PROCESSES LEADING THE WAY YET AGAIN!!!!!!!!

I still vote for the containers.....

Sorry to sound like a wet blanket, but ask the first UN worker you come across putting up these shelters to stay with the Haitians living inside of them during a Hurricane and see what their answer will be, eh? I bet you $100 they'd refuse to do so!!!!!!

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#1073
In reply to #1071

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/21/2010 9:07 PM

Mark,

the UN set up an RFP back three to four years ago and a consortium based in Geneva called "Shelter centere" has been at it since mid 2006...... www.sheltercentere.org

Professor Tom Corsellis of the U of Cambridge has written a prelim and also believes ship containers do offer a better alternative in a number of conditions even temporary emergency...just to get out of the environment.

Right now still in DRAFT and nothing finalized...read "UN Bureaucracy".

Geoff Daly NH

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#1074
In reply to #1071

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/21/2010 9:44 PM

CaptMoosie. good insights, but without providing the decision makers with something different, we can't expect different results.

Engineers do certain things that other groups don't do. (except scientists)

They measure (weights, material strengths, connections, construction times, etc)

They specify (materials, strength, connections, test procedures, etc)

They test (wind tunnel testing & computer simulation & unoccupied real tests)

They do this because it is the only way to know something to the highest degree of certainty, and thereby provide reliable data for decision making.

Now that this has evolved to a time when decisions are going to be made, perhaps we need to lay out design specifications for hurricane, quake, & flood, (and mudslide?) resistant structures in general, and containers in specific, and lay out testing parameters and procedures. If we don't, then decisions will be made on the firmest data available, whatever that may be, if any

Decision makers need simple matrices of information like the following to compare choices, based on the most reliable data we have. (sorry you can't see it. it compares wind, quake, and flood data for different types of buildings. I've blown up the headers)

I do create documentation, but I'm not an engineer. (technologist)
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#1079
In reply to #1074

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/21/2010 10:13 PM

please

are you suggesting this is new data?

you are trying to apply logic to a political problem.

The decisions are being made based on funding sources, re-election campaigns & polling numbers...

Have any of you shared the idea with [non technical & or non political] people of using shipping containers as housing?

Have you gotten any negative feedback, other than about the need for ventilation?

the reaction of the probably 20 people I've told has been universally positive.
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#1080
In reply to #1079

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/21/2010 10:18 PM

no, I'm just assuming there are or will be competing ideas, and that we can use such charts to make decisions easy and obvious. I'm not trying to talk down to anyone, just bypass time consuming discussions by using the tools available.

Chris

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#1076
In reply to #1071

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/21/2010 9:52 PM

All of this discussion of roofing and sheet-metal huts makes me nervous- as Capt. Moosie points out, one of the most common missiles in a big blow, especially in this part of the world, is going to be roofing sheets. It does not matter what type of anchors you use to secure the frame to the structure- the bottom line is, in this part of the world, they never use enough screws to fasten the sheet metal to the frame. Or, if they have a wooden frame, they are likely to use nails...

For those who opt to shelter in our steel tents will be fairly well protected from such flying objects. Those who opt for less substantial hurricane shelters are very likely to find themselves without- wilthout shelter as the flying debris tears up the rickety structures, and possibly without a head or other important body parts as then encounter Capt. Moosie's flying guillotines...
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#1084
In reply to #1071

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/22/2010 12:10 AM

100% with you, Moose,

Cheers,

Stu

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#1085
In reply to #1071

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/22/2010 12:33 AM

http://cr4.globalspec.com/comment/512671/Re-Shipping-Container-Housing

Nothing much has changed but it will and if it is the last thing I do. Not for a hundred bucks Mate, at gun point maybe.

We shall see. We shall see.

We shall see, all the best, Ky.

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#1086
In reply to #1071

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/22/2010 7:18 AM

GA Moosie.

Unless properly fastened down, corrugated iron is dangerous in a hurricane.

Most of the damage done in cyclone Tracy (Darwin 1974?) seemed to have been done by loose sheets of corrugated iron.

The city was flattened. Population had to be mainly evacuated and the city rebuilt.

An example of the bureaucratic mind:

The bureaucrat in charge of rebuilding after cyclone Tracy was being interviewed. He said "Things are going well. We are ahead in our spending"

This was in reply to a question as to how come there had not been approval for a single house to be built a year after the cyclone!

The Prime Minister (Gough Whitlam) placed the ex Lord Mayor of Brisbane, Clem Jones, in charge after that. Within a couple of months rebuilding was well under way.
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#1087

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/22/2010 10:07 AM

thanks guys for the GA's.

I do have a question that has been haunting me somewhat, and possibly some of you guys may have heard a thing or two in the past week:

Is former Brig. General Robert Crear on the ground now in Haiti? Has his office or Command issued any recent press releases, particularly regarding a near term Multi-Phased Plan of cleaning up the nation of Haiti? I must have a Godzillion questions to pose to the General, and frankly, I would like yo know what he thinks and wants to do....I want to hear of something akin to solid akin to thinking and thought-out planning!

It seems, at least to me, that since his appointment he has disappeared from the news and the public eye......like much of the news coverage of Haiti in general has fallen to the wayside or fallen down between the cracks in the floor. And is there any news about his interactions with former Presidents Clinton and Bush? IF so, what where the results (other than typical political gobbledy gook and press releases double talk)???????

What exactly are the USACE, FEMA, USAID and the various UN agencies doing presently in Haiti (or elsewhere in US Ports of Call)????

Seems to be like a news black-out has descended. I don't like be left un-informed by any measure, which makes me extremely uneasy. How about you?

Does anyone have any NEW news coverage of Haiti and the reconstruction/relief actions occurring there???????????

Nope, not a fan of corrugated steel sheets flying around......proper anchorage with the right type, size, length and quantity of screws is essential at each sheet lap and sheet perimeter....or else you'll end up with ripped-out sheets acting as CaptMoosie's Flying Guillotines. Forget about nails because they have much lesser "PULL-OUT" values then wood screws. If you can get the Haitian day-workers to do it right all of the time, then fine, BUT if they cannot master installing the screws and sheet metal properly you are wasting their and everyone's time.....then it's back to square 1 and that is Steel containers.

Just trying to point out that the quality of workmanship will have a direct bearing on the survival of the shelters and hence the people in them. If it, workmanship, cannot be mastered adequately then there's bound to be many repercussions resulting down the road to recovery. The primary reason I like the shipping container option is that you reduce by yet another factor in providing a successful shelter, and that is removing the workmanship factor (that may or may not be present in Haiti on a large scale) or HUMAN FACTOR OR CONSTRUCTIBILITY FACTOR FROM THE OVERALL EQUATION.....

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#1089
In reply to #1087

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/23/2010 7:09 AM

During Cyclone Larry (category4/5) screws pulled right through some corrugated iron sheets, even though the right number of screws were used and they were correctly installed.

Allowance needs to be made for the increased lift on the sheet near the edges and the number of fasteners increased accordingly. The code specifies that this should be done, but it isn't always.

If the cyclone is slow moving, I think the flexing around the screw heads is enough to fatigue the metal and allow the screw to pull through.

No allowance seems to be made for this in code requirements.

The thought of a decent hurricane hitting corrugated iron put up to below code standards with questionable construction quality is a bit scary.
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#1093
In reply to #1089

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/23/2010 11:01 AM

Sceptic,

I believe there are curved washers designed for use on corrugated roofs so the load is distributed...needs at least a foot overlap and use of appropriate metal self tapping screws also designed for wood attachment so as to reduce pull out. Include the occassional through lag bolt at top and bottom of roofing sections maybe through a section of 2x4 along these sections...adds more longtitudinal strength...do you concur CaptMoosie....also what about Hurricane straps, Trans mentioned..will these adapt to corrugated use?

Corrugated sheeting comes in dims of 4 x 5 and 4 x 8 with gauges ranging from 16 to 12 gauge galvanized...not sure what is usually shipped to this area.

Geoff Daly NH

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#1090

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/23/2010 8:36 AM

Hello sceptic,

I concur with your assessment 120%, in that there is a marked increase in wind loading in certain locations on buildings, no matter what the wall or roof material is. Per Code calculations, the highest wind pressures, and hence wind forces, acting on a structure occur at building wall corners, edges of roofs, eaves, and the windward side of sloped roofs. Some of these forces are nearly 3X the average wind pressure or force found in the interior areas of a roof or wall, be it windward or lee.

It sure helps if the corrugated steel roofing sheets are NOT recycled because older ones may have pockets of corrosion along the edges or metal fatigue from having gone through previous hurricane (and accompanying twisters).

Note: I'm assuming this discussion is centered on stick-build shelters and Quonset Huts, etc. where we have some sort of wooden roof structural members or frames, arches etc., hence the remainder of my posting coincides with the proper positioning of fasteners, purlins and corrugated steel / Aluminum roofing sheets.

When in doubt and a rule thumb in the field, because of the much higher wind forces found at certain locations: provide no less than 5x the amount of the appropriate fastener at sheets forming the wall corners ( and at large doors and windows) as well as along roof edges (the entire roof perimeter and along the ridge line if a simple gable roof.......or wherever there is a discontinuity of sheeting, making sure to equally space the wood screws along each edge.........also, when placing corrugated steel roofing make sure it spans over no less than 4 supports (to make 3 spans) such as roof purlins. If done in this manner, you'll be introducing the wind forces normal to the steel sheet as if the sheet were acting like a continuous beam or slab thereby effectively reducing the End Moments, Interior Moments and Shears @ supports + the maximum Span Moments located between the supports by quite a bit.

Also, my experience tells me to provide no less than 1.5-inches of corrugated steel sheet lap (both top and bottom sheets), but if you can get more that's better because you have more metal to resist tear-out along the edges.....whenever you can, try to get more, like 3 inches! Of course, it all depends on the gauge thickness of the corrugated steel sheets, whether they're galvanized, whether there is rust present, rips and tears present, and the size of the fasteners being used. All of these factors will dictate more or less number and spacing of fasteners and sheet overlap dimensions. As you can surmise, using brand new corrugated steel sheets has it's advantages as you'll useless fasteners etc.

Not all corrugated steel or aluminum roofing sheets are created equally......someone has to look at the dimensions and the sectional properties and conduct thorough design calculations using the already determined wind forces.......there will be differences in Sheet Depth (d), Sheet thickness (t), Cross-sectional Area (A), Section Modulus Top (Sp), Sectional Modulus Bottom (Sn), Moment of Inertia Top (Ip) and Moment of Inertia Bottom (In).

It may be that what is typically received in Haiti may be all that'll you'll get, and that may be a low load resisting sheet, so that the design spacing of the roof purlins supporting the sheets may have to be adjusted accordingly.........oh, and one other thing, make sure that the sheets laps at the end of each successive sheet falls atop a roof purlin so that the fasteners have something to bite into structurally.....likewise along the sheet edge laps with "false purlins" that must have a true structural roof member directly below it.

Of course this blurb about fasteners can go and on......

Of extreme importance is NOT to pre-drill holes in the corrugated steel sheets if at all possible....use proper self-tapping screws meant to secure metal to a wood substrate. If you pre-drill the screw holes you effectively weaken the steel to resist fastener pull-out, especially along sheet edges. People have a tendency to "ream" drill holes, mainly to clean up the hole and remove burrs, etc. Not a good practice because they end up increasing the drill hole.........you want the wood screw threads to "bite" into the metal and lock it there.

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#1091

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/23/2010 9:15 AM

I have been trying to follow this thread.

I don't know if others are experiencing

the difficulty I have had recently reading

the posts, because it's stretched laterally ,

seems to occur on other threads ,

after a particular commenter doesn't hit

the carriage return lever.

I refuse to purchase a 60" wide monitor

just to be able to read this thread.

Little help out there.

packrat

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Nigh
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#1094
In reply to #1091

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/23/2010 11:17 AM

I'm having the same trouble, this only started recently.

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#1096
In reply to #1094

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/23/2010 11:55 AM

I'm having the same trouble as well...it's been happening the past few days......might as well toss-out this 21-inch LCD monitor and hookup the PC to the 47-inch LCD TV instead. Hey, is that even possible???? I'm not an electrical or computer Geekster so I don't know a clue about if the PC linked to the big screen will be compatible.

It would be very kewl if it's possible! Although Mrs. CaptMoosie wouldn't like it too much because it'd interrupt her Soaps this afternoon (IMHO, no great loss there!!! LOL).....

Geoff, I concur using the steel washers or very strong self-sealing plastic/vinyl/rubber? washers that are compatible with the fasteners.

Some corrugated steel and aluminum sheet metal comes with top and bottom flats, Some others come with rounded corrugations, I Suggest that only corrugated sheets that have flat corrugations be used to facilitate the easy of securing the sheets to the wood substrate material (purlins, etc.).

Also, seen steel and aluminum corrugated sheets come as thin as 1/2-inch depth all the way up to 6-inch depth, and ranging in gauge thickness from 28-gauge all the way up to 10-gauge. There are many manufacturers of corrugated steel and aluminum roofing sheets in the USA and the rest of the world, so you have to be very leery about counterfeit roofing sheets that have substandard steel properties.

Sheets can come pre-painted, vinyl coated, hot-dipped galvanized......cold-rolled and hot-rolled........and always carry a micrometer with you on the jobsite to verify gauge thickness!!!!! You would believe the "garbage" I've found on jobsites over the past 3 decades.....lots of undersized sheets as well as the counterfeit junk from Brazil, China, India and yes, even Japan, just to mention a few of the worse offenders.

I still resist the idea of using steel sheets on shelters...it just doesn't feel good...I get a bad JU JU feeling......on the other hand, shipping containers I get great vibes with.

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#1097
In reply to #1091

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/23/2010 12:00 PM

What browser are you using? I have noticed the same issue, and this is not the first time. I use Firefox, and tend to think the issue is related to a recent update of the browser...Currently using 3.0.16, while my other computer has, I believe, a newer version. Need to check the newer version to determine if that is having a similar problem today...
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#1113
In reply to #1097

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/24/2010 4:06 AM

I'm using IE8 so it's not a FireFox issue.

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#1098
In reply to #1091

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/23/2010 12:30 PM

no its my fault for posting an extra wide picture.

I forgot the effect. I apologize to all.

Chris
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#1104
In reply to #1091

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/23/2010 4:29 PM

packrat561,

do you mean not to fill the whole cross section of the box given as it can continue over onwards or what?...I have found it automatically goes to the next line!

See no comment on Chris288 Phoenix from you yet or have I missed it?

Geoff Daly NH

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#1105
In reply to #1104

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/23/2010 4:36 PM

Hi Geoff,

I've never had a problem with my posts. I have been informed that the horizontal stretch was due to a large graphic post, the format problem has since been corrected.

Now I can more easily follow the NY state tax and Windows thread.

Packrat

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#1107
In reply to #1104

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/23/2010 5:15 PM

Geoff, Chrisg

I've been looking at Chris's 'Phoenix' design, and it's a great, imaginative, avant garde, artistic iteration. Statement plus. The new beginning for national pride, etc.

However, as a structure, it covers a lot of real estate. In an upheaval, not being a unified structure, it'll end up as a multilevel "higgledy-piggeldy" discrete structure.

I've considered it a fair bit, and if I can add my tuppen'th, I'd build a pyramid. I liked Chris' "Hanging Gardens" iteration. Now, if it were a corral of pyramidal sections??????

Weld the units together in a 'stretcher bond' ( where are the brickies?) pattern into a unitary structure. End on, or side on. Haven't finished the design as yet but, to get natural light into the upper layers, enclosed courtyards are proposed. Maybe if you think 'hollow cored pyramid'. Use some cantilevering too, as Ky's 24 unit apartment block, perhaps.

I personally would prefer to build a totally unitary structure, with a large floatation footprint, pyramidal stability. But that's just me.

Okay fellers, here's the target........

Cheers,

Stu

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#1108
In reply to #1107

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/23/2010 6:50 PM

"Hanging Garden" design, open court yards (in the "Phoenix", plenty of room for a lot of open court yards!)...Add a couple of fountains and we are on the same page(but Chris tells me he can't do fountains yet...
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#1110
In reply to #1107

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/23/2010 9:50 PM

I had another thougth that a large rectangle of hundreds of containers could be build, making a large monolithic block representing the bold colors of the flage, and the the Phoenix could be the second story of the structure in the central white section.. maybe blue and green being the sidebars.. maybe a single red row perimeter.

that way some stability could be provided, and more government office space provided.

CaptMoosie. I tend to agree with your point about government, but.... in a land of such turmoil and mayhem, infrastructure and symbolism are exactly what is required... where would your military systems be without discipline and procedures? same thing.. the road to the future must be the rule of law and government to protect the interests of the public. I can't think of another way.

Chris
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#1092

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/23/2010 9:18 AM

Hey Chris, nice layout! I like it!!!

Questions though, okay?

Is this Phoenix complex for housing the entire Haitian government. I hope it isn't just for the Haitian President. If it is, maybe scale it back a little and toss some of the shipping containers to their Supreme Court and Legislative branches (if they have them), and possibly reserve some for the Prison System as well? God knows by the time we're all done with helping out Haiti recover, they'll be stacking prisoners up like cord wood!

What are the colors of the Haitian national flag? Perhaps use those colors for painting Phoenix design. Honestly, I've no clue what their flag even looks like....guess I'll have to go Google it and take a look-see, eh?!

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