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spacecannon
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Shipping Container Housing

01/16/2010 12:05 PM

I have a civil engineer friend whoose dream it is to design and build shipping container housing for general use and for emergency use, like an instant city for Haiti. Im trying to motivate him to live his dream, so what does everyone think about container housing?

spacecannon

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#1428
In reply to #1401
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/22/2010 5:02 AM

I really don't know why the Dominican Republic just doesn't Annex the Nation of Haiti and move the population the hell out of there.....

In the not to distant past Haiti initiated military engagement against DR and so DR may let Haiti be...

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chrisg288
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#1550
In reply to #1401
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/27/2010 3:42 PM

ya... I don't think we should worry so much about thermite anymore..because

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teller-Ulam_design

Chris

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#1551
In reply to #1550

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/27/2010 5:09 PM

Why is that Chris? Are you planning on building a Thermonuclear device to cut holes in shipping container? ***LMAO Thinking Crazy Canadians...***

I would hate to see the device you'd employ to pop the cap off a Molsen's Golden Ale......

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chrisg288
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#1552
In reply to #1551

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/27/2010 5:19 PM

that's why our teeth are worn down on the one side eh!

at least we don't use a sword like Napoleon to open champagne...

but I don't hafta worry 'bout it... I go to fine establishments with hot waitresses.. who open my corona for me, and put a slice of lime in it. service with a smile

that's the right tool for this job.

anyway I wasn't suggesting using nukes for cutting. I was saying that your concerns over letting out the secrets are a little late... the cat is out of the bag... and gone mainstream in wiki, pictures and all.

Chris
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#1553
In reply to #1552

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/27/2010 5:45 PM

Hmmm must be tough to chew on that one side, eh? Your Dentist must be seeing...!!!

Ohhh I'm not worried about the secret getting out the bag regarding Thermite...in fact in the beginning of that thread I mentioned to Geoff that there was a video about how to make theThermite on U-Tube. Thermite I'm not too worried about, because it's only good for horsing around and for welding or cutting steel. It's not a true explosive like C-4, C-8, TNT or what have you, incl. fertilizer bombs.

I am however concerned about several other video disclosures regarding DIY explosives that are dangerous in the wrong hands, some of which would be very easy to manufacture in significant quantities w/o the authorities getting wind of those persons intentions........scary stuff some of these "Kids" are brewing up!

Ahhh now you're talking! Coronas with a slice of lime or lemon on a Cancun beach with 'em naked women all about. Hey I'd go back again but this time w/o a GF or Wife tagging along!!! Or better yet, go to Rio for Festival!!!

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#1554
In reply to #1553

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/27/2010 5:57 PM

awright, what's in all this for me?!
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#1555
In reply to #1554

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/28/2010 12:15 AM

How to "place" COCL2 or a commemorative canbottle opener - hard to tell.

This might interest those interested in a Haiti equivalent - agriculturally healing.

It is of course "off topic" for "engineers"- Civil or not

(play the video rather than read the transcript)
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#1556
In reply to #1554

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/28/2010 12:54 AM

I'll come with you.

Cheers,

Stu.

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#1557
In reply to #1556

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/28/2010 8:18 AM

Hey, IF we all fly off to Rio for Festival, I'm going to learn how to do the Tango! I've always wanted to give it a try....

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#1411
In reply to #1397
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/21/2010 4:17 PM

Stu,

you have been to HongKong, BangKok and other water cities...WHEH the water smell can be overwhelming some times....go to Delhi and the Ganges area where they bath for the Gods etc and burn bodies and Bangladesh delta

Good comment but still the canal idea is good and as Kyzine said need a barrier to stop too much salt water entering.

Geoff Daly NH

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#1409
In reply to #1391
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/21/2010 3:49 PM

Chris,

Excellent commentary and with the inclusion of the 26 NGO's who did the report against the UN decison not to ask/include anyone else other than a bunch of TECHNOCRRATS to formuate a plan.

Again exclude those who have good positve ideas, solutions and are on the ground trying there best without USAID/FEMA, UN, IOM or any real backing other than a few hand outs...this has included CR4 input ('unproven technology") and several other organizations putting forward offers/plans/ideas etc...in some cases summarily dismissed "as not in our plan of operations being considered to install a water plant"; aka the millions of 2 liter water bottles being FLOWN in every day by 2 NGO's from Atlanta..."have contracts and cannot be changed by FEMA" (remember I posted that FEMA is paying $25,000 per 40 cu yd dumpster truck load from New Orleans to site in Louisianna...round trip just over 5 hours, some are doing two trips per day...in wrong business)

Geoff Daly NH

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chrisg288
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#1413

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/21/2010 4:26 PM

While we are discussing the development of disaster-proof housing, because hundreds of thousands of people have/will die in Haiti, there is another fact that is wholly relevant to the reconstruction. That is the decimation of the government itself. Not only was the presidential palace destroyed, but the government itself.

For North American's this is unthinkable. We have lots of built in redundancy in infrstructure, but also in people (was it Bush or Cheney that was redundant?) and we have many years of military experience that has demanded that the command structure survive battles.

While the government is not necessarily a military structure, and I personally wish it were less so, there are times when it simply must lead by command.

So I suggest that when re-engineering the government of Haiti, that more redundancy be built into it, as the first line of defense. The government house should not be rebuilt in the same location on the quake zone.. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity, and evidence that one does not learn from the past.

The housing of government should be relocated to the most stable location in the land. I would suggest that the ancient fort (Citadel) has both withstood quakes, hurricanes et al, and provides a strong enough symbol.

Secondly, the key government leaders need to be duplicated. The roles and responsiblities and need to be mapped out like an ISO process, and duplicates of all transactions maintained in dual locations.. standard data integrity thinking.

The government infrastructure needs to be networked with greater crisis independence like the ideas that lead to the creation of the ARPANET, for communications survival of nuclear strikes.

The government needs to be structured to prevent disabling itself through the variety of political and military means that this can be done. (coup, filibuster, etc)

Lastly, all this needs to be done while maintaining the ability of the people to ultimately control the system, and give direction to the processes and issues resolution.

In brief, duplicate the people, processes, data, and intent. Ensure that the governments ability to act, rescue, consult, collaborate and command survives any future disaster.

In my humble opinion....

Chris.
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#1427

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/22/2010 1:45 AM

I give Chris credit for his forward thinking and originality. We have put him almost against the wall. While I think part of his plan is ok and can be realized. It is just not the right spot. - agreed that Porte Prince is a Risk rule 1: eliminate: This means, in the future the dead toll can be drastically reduced or eliminated. Not just a name change please. rule 2: isolate: can only be achieved to move away from there. rule 3: complete protection rule 4: personal individual protection. 1 is possible- out -ruling 2,3,and 4. I don't call Haiti overpopulated, rather not wisely spread. Belgium is far more densely populated. Because of lack of alternatives the population moved close to the city. Redistribute and develop - they need all the help to build a minimum standard life, first shelter and later, depending on the place - industrial or agricultural development. They know how to farm. It just needs optimization. Porte Prince can remain a ruin as far as I think. One Tourism attraction point and a pointing finger to not repeat this mistake. I just wonder who will pay.

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#1476

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/23/2010 12:48 PM

This is a moderated web site, folks. Enough with the name-calling, profanity, and personal attacks already. I can close this thread if reasonable discussion has run its course, but I'd prefer to leave it open. Let's get back to civil engineering, shall we?

Moose
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#1478
In reply to #1476

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/23/2010 1:12 PM

I would like to add to Moose's comment that there is a private messaging system here on CR4 that is more appropriate for airing dirty laundry...
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bwire
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#1483
In reply to #1478

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/23/2010 3:40 PM

Decorum indeed!

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#1484
In reply to #1478

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/23/2010 4:29 PM

Me too!

Stu

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#1514

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/24/2010 5:41 AM

A refresher of the links to all the related discussions

The original thread Shipping Container Housing is over 1500 posts long

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/49244#newcomments

New Thread as a Compilation:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/52324/Alternate-Methods-of-Emergency-Housing-as-it-Relates-to-the-Crisis-in-Haiti

How to Install & Anchor Shipping Container Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50522#newcomments

Methods For Installing Doors & Windows In Shipping Container Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50523#newcomments

Drainage, Sanitation & Other Issues Related To Shipping Container Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50525#newcomments

Potable Water In Conjunction W/ Shipping Container as Housing:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50537#newcomments

What Shelter Designs Work Using Corrugated Iron

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50850/What-Shelter-Designs-Work-Using-Corrugated-Iron

Scrap ships as housing

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/51898/Ship-Breaking

The new Blog started by Clemson University:

http://www.seed-haiti.net/?page_id=2

Bioneers Forum

http://connect.bioneers.org/forum/topics/alternate-methods-of-emergency

Please feel free to contact me should you need any help with any of CR4's features
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#1547

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/26/2010 1:00 AM

A method of moving heavy objects has been rediscovered. It could easily be applied to move containers.

and also related..

very exciting.

Chris
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#1548
In reply to #1547

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/26/2010 1:50 AM

Hi Chris, You might like this link too.

Quotations about Archimedes' Lever

Kyz
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#1549
In reply to #1547

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/26/2010 3:39 AM

But the wheel hadn't been invented then??

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#1558

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/29/2010 9:17 AM

Another related discussion.

Please join in

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/52370/Methane-Gas
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Anonymous Poster
#1559

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/29/2010 5:10 PM

Dear Packrat561, My wife happened to look over my shoulder and see the post. She didn't like it.

It may well have been a bit much for Captain Moosie to call you a left wing twerp. However we have a place for posts such as this where we have been allowed to get away with it, up to a point.

I am not without sin, and would like to be able to go back and delete some things that still are around beyond the 15 minute window.

In at least one case I reported myself.
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Transcendian
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#1560
In reply to #1559

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/29/2010 9:45 PM

My wife is real sensitive.

She like concrete, and has a subscription to Dwell and the New Yorker.

We live in a small house where she is in her part of it, and I am in my part of it.

Sometimes we meet in the kitchen.

She thinks I read pornography all day, so Packy's post pissed her off.

As you know I spend way too much time trying to figure out how to beat off asteroids.

Meantime as far as Haiti is concerned, it has dropped off the pages.

The movie stars and rock stars ought to have just bought the place, instead of making donations to NGOs and all the other approved Orgs, and institutions.

Actually Haiti might be a good place to launch rockets from. Ecuador is another good place to launch rockets from. Actually that spin thing of the Earth helps down around that way.

Good area out to sea for the space elevators too.

Meantime back at the ranch... Has anybody seen pictures of shipping container complexes in Haiti?

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dvmdsc
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#1561
In reply to #1560

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/29/2010 10:02 PM

yes, Chris I thought if I remember well (is it 288?) but not a lot of 40 feet ones. He showed a place in port-au- Prince with containers.

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#1562
In reply to #1560

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/29/2010 10:10 PM

Hi Trans. Try here: 18*34'25.75N and 72*18'56.16W - 40 FEET available

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#1564

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/30/2010 10:52 PM

I got this as a email this afternoon from

Toton Moye

This release from the

Organization Of American States

Sheds some light on a few of the issues, many of which our beyond the scope of our discussions.

I did the best I could with the format

Page 1 1 HAITIAN DIASPORA FORUM:

CONTRIBUTING TO A STRATEGIC PLAN FOR RECONSTRUCTION AND DEVELOPMENT IN HAITI March 21-23, 2010 CONSOLIDATED RECOMMENDATIONS

The Haitian Diaspora wishes to thank the Organization of American States (OAS) for convening some 400 representatives from the Haitian Diaspora in its headquarters in Washington, DC, from March 21-23, 2010, to submit recommendations to the Government of Haiti and donors ahead of the discussion to be held on March 31 st , 2010 at the United Nations in New York, as part of its contribution into the elaboration of a strategic plan for the reconstruction and development of its homeland.

Following are the recommendations that emanated from the two-day discussions: The Diaspora acknowledges and supports efforts by the Government of Haiti (GOH) and the private sector to address the post-earthquake urgencies. It welcomes their insistence to the international community that, in purchasing food aid, preference be given to local producers and national suppliers in order to avoid the contraction of domestic production. It also welcomes efforts initiated with the help of the international community to assess the structural integrity of existing homes, and to implement cash for work programs.

The Diaspora would like to urge the GOH to:

R1. Collaborate with the international community to ensure that food distribution systems and shelter arrangements take into account social and cultural factors and respect the dignity of people (e.g. establish distribution schedules and community kitchens; keep lines short at distribution points; target vulnerable beneficiaries for special distribution channels including home delivery; uphold regional equity by extending distribution to areas that have welcomed the displaced population; etc.).

R2. Transform the idle time at the camps into educational opportunities and provide various trainings, including civic education for children, young adolescents and adults. At the same time, strengthen the educational infrastructure outside of Port-au-Prince including at pre-school, primary, secondary, adult, vocational, and higher educational levels. Emphasize teacher training throughout the country.

R3. Seek the coordination of distribution efforts with all stakeholders, including local governments, international aid agencies, hometown associations and community groups in Haiti and abroad. Additionally, increase transparency and accountability by requiring aid agencies to publicize a detailed accounting of funds expended in Haiti.

R4. Given the fast-approaching rainy and hurricane season, seek the collaboration of aid agencies and local Haitian organizations to identify and prepare areas outside of Port-au-Prince that are less susceptible to natural disasters. Build seismic and cyclonic resistant temporary housing, such as modular housing and URGENT HUMANITARIAN NEEDS AND EFFECTIVE DEPLOYMENT OF FOREIGN AID

Page 2

2 prefabricated homes. In the design of long-term housing and shelter plans, adopt and enforce seismic and cyclonic resistant building codes.

R5. Increase the effectiveness of humanitarian aid by empowering aid recipients through the extension of work-for-food and cash-for-work programs within the camps and throughout the critical areas, with a focus on the youth and women. Collaborate with aid agencies to assess periodically the humanitarian needs and the effectiveness of aid distribution within and outside of Port-au-Prince, including through feedback from beneficiaries.

R6. Increase accountability through greater transparency and oversight of all reconstruction funds (public or private) with the creation of an Inspector General Office. Such Office shall be required to conduct audits and investigations to prevent fraud, waste and abuse, and shall report its findings publicly.

R7. Make best efforts to ensure that firms that are contracted in Haiti hire Haitian workers and contractors as a priority, including from the Diaspora, as a means to alleviate poverty, enable job training and creation, reverse the brain drain by expanding human capital that will, in turn, attract foreign investment.

R8. Recognize the importance of the Diaspora in the Haitian economy and, referencing the Plan d'Action pour le Relèvement et le Développement National (March 2010), yield to the Diaspora's strong request for a full voting seat in la Commission Intérimaire pour la Reconstruction d'Haïti.

R9. Create a Civil Service Corps with the participation of Haitian nationals and the Diaspora, particularly women, to assist in the building process. Donors are encouraged to review their personnel's legal framework with the view of facilitating the transfer or detail of Creole-speaking employees to work on loan in Haiti. The Diaspora stands ready to play its part in the development of private capital vehicles for investing in Haiti such as social venture capital funds, and to bring to bear its multifaceted expertise in capital markets, technology, engineering, green energy, etc. The proposals of the Diaspora for a sustainable development are articulated around two themes: (i) greater involvement of the Diaspora and (ii) sector specific recommendations.

The Diaspora urges the GOH to:

R10. Set an ambitious but concrete and quantifiable goal for the short and medium run, particularly in terms of GDP growth (6% per year or more) and reduction of poverty. R11. Work with donors to formally engage the Diaspora in the implementation and follow up of measures and recommendations for recovery and reconstruction. As such, create a platform for exchanging information and ensuring that (i) the Diaspora is updated on business opportunities as well as other developments and (ii) at the same time that the GOH is aware of resources available in the Diaspora (financial and human)
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Garthh
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#1565
In reply to #1564

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/30/2010 11:01 PM

A link to:

Dominican Authorities Approve Container Cities For Haiti Housing Relief

Link
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#1566
In reply to #1565

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/31/2010 12:18 AM

Good work Mr. H!
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#1569
In reply to #1566

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/31/2010 12:53 AM

Just passing on some info from the regular email circle

I should have given credit for bringing the Dominican Republic proposal to my attention to JohnEvans7

My apologies for the oversight
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#1570
In reply to #1569

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/31/2010 12:58 AM

There were concerns expressed about the cost & earthquake/hurricane suitability of the designs...
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#1571
In reply to #1570

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/31/2010 1:04 AM

psssst....Garthh....http://cr4.globalspec.com/comment/531778/Re-Methods-for-Installing-Doors-Windows-in-Shipping-Container-Housing
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#1572
In reply to #1571

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/31/2010 1:32 AM

Geeze

I'm just stepping in it everywhere tonight
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#1577
In reply to #1572

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/31/2010 10:03 AM

No, it's just more proof that we read the same things, like TR...
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#1568
In reply to #1565

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/31/2010 12:39 AM

Good for the container idea. Only the project looks very expensive on the presentation. And maybe the president will live there soon? Is the name " flying city" ? Will they fly apart or two at the time? I have seen better ideas about it on this forum.

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#1573
In reply to #1568

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/31/2010 2:01 AM

If this system of containers faces a cat 5 hurricane, and all the pieces are left to the elements, then there will be some failures it seems. However, I think that this system has some great design intent, which is to provide affordable housing, with energy self-sufficiency for the owners/residents, and also to be able to take some pride in your community, and feel that your living choice is exemplary.

As far as storm shelter, there are issues, but clearly, that was not the intent. I think that if the design has some further features added that can help secure the wind gen equipment, and be able to 'batten down the hatches, then it might survive just fine.

I certainly commend the vision and skill that has put this together, all the more so because I've tried to put together some simpler scenes, and I know that it is a challenge.

Chris
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#1574
In reply to #1573

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/31/2010 2:04 AM

designed for the wrong place, The architect should have CR4'ed

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#1575
In reply to #1574

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/31/2010 4:30 AM

Disagree.

Stu

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#1576
In reply to #1575

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/31/2010 9:29 AM

In a phone call sometime awhile back Geoff Daly said the DR Shelter report was incorrect. Possibly I'll check back with him for clarification. Maybe someone else can get ahold of him. Looked expensive for Haiti per unit.

Far as the plans for Haiti, I've about thrown my hands up. The legal issues related to real shelter and property rights have long seemed important to address. I'm not aware that they have been.

I ended up looking at Ireland and Puerto Rico for clues as to what out to help Haiti. In both cases there was emigration. Puerto Rico is about luckier than Haiti as they became a US Territory.

If all of a sudden the Haitian government becomes clean and effective, that will be great. Meantime it doesn't appear so, and while politically correct to look to it, it would appear that the UN and others are really in charge. Really I felt in the end that while some news comes out of Haiti, it is not focused on what we have in mind, and a scout was called for.

Without money of our own I don't know what more we can do other than attempt to make suggestions. Maybe they will do some good.

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#1581
In reply to #1576

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/31/2010 1:58 PM

Trans,

Thanks for the reference...yes, the DR project is only a computer graphic for presentation...very nice what one can do with a 3D drawing system (hurrah for Hollywood, Steven Speilberg and George Lucas for pushing this envelope years ago)

I have actually spoken with the offices of Richard Moreta about this and is only a graphical presentation and many companies use them before doing all the required engineering. Nothing has been done structually as it involves another design system which they use and was not Solidworks but a version from Autodesk for Architects to design large buildings. Agreed was going to be expensive but there consortium were using the DR Government to get a site built in the DR, then offer there services to Haiti as the DR has not been affected as badly as Haiti?

Garfield who has posted the GlobalCon drawings of a community idea has said this is now part of the OAS/Desparia presentation going forward along with many of the CR 4 ideas and concepts...so we are not failing in getting recognized for our "Shipping Container" efforts.

Yes some people, companies, NGO's are now trying to jump on the band wagon an sayings this is there idea....Richard Martin has had someone place on You-tube his schools he built in Haiti and try to take all the credit,even though the guy was only partially invovled... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYzg1_Ozqwo

Lets keep plodding away and we will get the due credit going forward, I know Professor Doug Hecker at Clemson believes in CR4 and so does Richard Martin, Anthony Madden of GlobalCon, Douge Lowe Architecture for Humanity/Cunningham grp and several other groups who have visited CR4 community postings...thanks to Garthh for doing the list, CW, Chris, stu, JohnE7, even CaptMoosie when he is feeling unrattled and calm and Trans....word gets around.

Be proud of what we have done so far..got some folks attention at least.

Geoff Daly NH....got to go and earn a little more money today....Stu will skype you later AM your time

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#1587
In reply to #1581

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/31/2010 8:03 PM

Goeff-

Everyone deserves a "Well Done" for this effort. The real question is not, however, who deserves credit, but, rather, have we suceeded in preventing future death and suffering? If others feel the need to toot a horn that doesn't really belong to them, I am not all that concerned about it- as long as lives are saved and suffering mitigated...
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#1578
In reply to #1565

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/31/2010 11:57 AM

My less than learned opinion is that this is a vision [not so unlike one of Chrisg288's] of one possible final design.

Even bolting 2 containers together at right angles would have to reduce the tendency to tip over in a strong wind many times [I can't quantify that]

suspending a tarp reduce the heat from the sun

Knock a couple of holes, increase the ventilation

any of which are much better than a huddling under a blanket in the mud
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#1579
In reply to #1578

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/31/2010 12:25 PM

I do think that there is the basis of a good architectural system represented. I really would like to see hundreds of thousands of containers made available to the Haitian people, even in a raw state, and simply clamped together, to provide them with storm shelter. Even if the UN doesn't like them for living units, surely they can be seen as a refuge where no other exists. As I've suggested previously, locking together 24 or more of them, in a single height configuration, will automatically make them able to resist very strong winds, providing shelter from wind, rain, and ~quake, (and hopefully shallow flooding)

I believe that this insistence on Storm Shelter should be a unanimous and continuous statement from us until it happens. I love great architecture as much as the next person, but... storm shelter is a huge and immediate priority.
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#1567
In reply to #1564

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/31/2010 12:35 AM

Well thought through. Nice find Garthh. My hopes are up that a solution to the prefabricated homes is just around the corner or at least offer an organized beginning.

I wish the organizers well and can just hope that the human side of things is not just sweet talk.

GA from me, Ky.

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#1585

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/31/2010 7:21 PM

Guys,

there is a new mapping system for Haiti started by a group of volunteers out of Arlington Va...is pretty cool and fairly accurate based on what I see via Google Earth and some old Hetz maps I have from 8 years ago.

www.openstreetmap.org

does not really show the topo but gives a good idea of roads etc. Appears the USAID/FEMA people are using to GPS stuff they could not do before.

Spread the word.

Geoff Daly NH

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#1594

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/01/2010 1:18 PM

This is what can happen with containers and houses @120 Mph. Note that some were full. I hope you have access to the link. It happened this passed Monday 11:30 A.M. in Freeport Grand Bahama. ******** http://bahamaislandsinfo.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5250:pm-tours-tornado-damaged-areas-of-freeport-container-port-and-surrounding-areas-video&catid=33:News%20&%20Info%20about%20Grand%20Bahama&Itemid=146

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#1595
In reply to #1594

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/01/2010 3:49 PM

Did you happen to notice that the second scene shows the entourage leaving what appears to be an undamaged office fabricated from a shipping container? The containers blown about were not visibly damaged and appeared mostly in tact, although I suppose anyone riding in them would have had a pretty exciting ride. It appears that those- or at least those in the views shown- that were blown about were stacked and not secured in any way. They all seemed to sustain considerably less damage than the more "conventional" housing shown in subsequent views. I also doubt the winds in the tornado were as low as 120 Mph- most tornadoes I have known personally have exceeded 200 mph- much more forceful than typical hurricane winds (although hurricanes do tend to spawn tornadoes).

All in all, I would say the containers did pretty well- they might be tumbled about, but they survived...Better than the cranes (note that all the cranes suffered damage, not just the one that collapsed)...

Very valuable link, thank you dvmdsc- but why don't you have any vowels in your handle?
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#1596
In reply to #1595

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/01/2010 4:36 PM

I noticed a sort of natural selection of the quality (read age) of the buildings. All these set-ups have been thoroughly tested during hurricanes that stroke the same spots (3 in total) in 2004 and 2005. These areas had no single tornado's before. And you are right that inside and during hurricanes tornado's develop and create the most extensive damage. Like 2000 pine (7" thick) trees snapped in 2 pieces in seconds. The VOWELS: they are definitely a minority group and it is safer to be @the other side? I still didn't find a way to make paragraphs here and didn't find the vowel shop yet? Can I change my handle without loosing my 4 good answers? LOL Chris288 told me once but I have deleted that message by accident.

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#1597
In reply to #1596

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/01/2010 5:06 PM

To at least get line breaks and create some white space between lines put a bracket, [ then a p, then a ] all together like (p) at the end of lines.

This is what I have to do to get any semblance of proper appearance and readability for my posts using Safari.

If I use Firefox it is not as much a problem, but in firefox I can't go back and forth with my email to the CR4 site as easily. When I post to my own site I have to post using Firefox.

Really I am only good for content. It is awful how terrible I am about software issues. At least I get help, and figure somethings out over time.

Otherwise I call you DV, and am real happy for your appearance here. RSD

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#1598
In reply to #1597

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/01/2010 5:42 PM

Thank you Trans.

For the explanation.

DV is ok with me and D makes even more sense.

This is the ultimate test.

Thanks for the welcome.

Nice to be with all of you.

Note: this incredible style change has been made possible with the help of yes: ....

WHO?

Transcendian, with thanks, D

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#1599
In reply to #1598

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/01/2010 7:35 PM

while we're doing lessons D [CW too]

to do a snappy link

write [or copy]some relevant text

PM tours tornado damaged areas of Freeport Container Port and surrounding areas [VIDEO]

Highlight the text

click the globe with a chain icon [hyperlink] on the editor bar

try the link in the preview phase

Paste the address in the URL box
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#1602
In reply to #1599

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/01/2010 8:40 PM

Nice link Garthh

Looks more like domino damage than anything else. Those containers couldn't have been better spaced for the occasion. Looks like the same thing happened with the cranes. The shacks did not look half bad.

Easter greetings to all, Ky.

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#1601
In reply to #1596

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/01/2010 8:31 PM

D,

You'd have to check with admin, but I do think you can change you 'handle' in the 'edit' facillity of your profile without losing your history.

I've seen others do it, and just recently.

Are you using a Mac too? If you come across the method of posting pics let me know too. I can't see any help in the formatting tags. Oh, it tells you what to do but it has never worked for me. I must be missing something.

Personally be interested to hear where you're at now, instead of; 'the world'.

Got the T'shirt.

Welcome,

Cheers,

Stu.

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#1600
In reply to #1594

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/01/2010 8:13 PM

Screenshot from google earth... Freeport container port.. I bet there is a hundred thousand containers there... How many are empty and unused??
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#1603
In reply to #1600

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/01/2010 9:00 PM

Just ordered a hammer to do the hammer test: I will knock 3 times on each container and when nobody answers, there are no Chinese in it. For your info: Hutchison Whampoa - they own the port as transshipment port through the Panama Canal's both entries, is also theirs.

For Stu:

should I use a Mac? I have one but slower than this Gates Masjien on XP. Now I am on the picture of Chris288, (reply 1608?)standing next to that blue container with the white letters. But I am easy to find: close to disaster.

But

I always move when someone wants to marry me.

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#1605
In reply to #1603

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/01/2010 9:44 PM

Why would you use safari on an xp machine?
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#1606
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/01/2010 9:58 PM

I have safari on my macbook, but the machine is too underperforming. Ram. speed... It is not practical for me. That is why I google - I guess through IE.

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#1607
In reply to #1603

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/01/2010 11:54 PM

" Now I am on the picture of Chris288, (reply 1608?)standing next to that blue container with the white letters. "

Hiding, Eh?

Who you hiding from?

I came in peace...................

Why the hell would Chinese want to go where you are?

Stu.

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#1604

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/01/2010 9:03 PM

Another issue... dealing with building container communities that are higher than a single level, should (God forbid) anyone decide that is a sustainably safe thing to do in a Hurricane and Quake zone...

Haiti now has thousands and thousands of disabled, who may not be able to use stairs, or even ramps.

Here is a simple concept for a Container Elevator using a chain block. Of course, I'm not an engineer and can not certify this as anything other than a concept.

These types of Chainfalls typically come rated at 3000, 5000, and 10000 lbs.

Any other ideas for people being able to lift themselves up with only their arms? (I think a person with even just one arm can lift themselves up with this type of lift.)

I can't quite remember how the driven chain part works (if it is a loop or not...) but the driving part.. I don't think you have to hold against the load when you are stopped.. the leverage ratio is too high I think) but if necessary one can have a bolt welded to the frame that you slip a link over to stop it.. can also have a lever type safety brake, lift gate, etc...

Chris
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#1608
In reply to #1604

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/02/2010 4:41 AM

Chris the simplest device is called a differential pulley. Can be rope, (if the pulleys grip), or chain. Chain is generally safer for lifting.

Means you need a pulley in the one of the loops to lift the load.

Interesting idea - but a bit noisy - inside a container 'lift shaft' - so bear that in mind if you are re-doing the hospital.

Stuey - have another beer and accept he's a "local" with "local knowledge"
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#1609

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/02/2010 10:26 AM

SpaceCannon,

I am the architectural project manager with GlobalCon Holdings designing several ISBU shipping container building types (housing (ISBU SIP), hospital, clinic, indoor cafeteria/gymnasium, K-College schools, utilities (water sewer power communications security) city center leadership and city layouts.

Can you introduce me to your civil engineer friend so we can start hashing out site planning ideas?

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#1660

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/07/2010 1:42 AM

I found an interesting container under construction today and managed to snag some shots.

Chris
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#1661
In reply to #1660

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/07/2010 10:30 AM

Chris,

saw these on the other thread ( http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50523#newcomments ) great pictures and I replied to Capt Moosies comment on lightning stricks etc.

One thing I noted was the 20 footer was on a towable skid base...presumably to go over the tundra areas in Northen Canada...For McMaurray area was where I stayed two years ago in a nice double wide 40 footer on skids..cozy as well. Another way to move containers if needed..strap to a skid (make in two sections so can be easily bought back for next container etc)

Gensets will still be needed in Haiti if we use bio-gas to power the genset with..so these are good photos of how to make a secure system for a power center.

With ref to the Aerotecture wind turbines Bill Weeks the inventor has said will work from 10 mph to 125 mph and are self speed regulating due to there foil design.

Has incoporated solar cells as well. Currently ony system for very high wind speeds.

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#1662
In reply to #1661

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/07/2010 9:12 PM

"Australia has been operating a 10kW Vergnet turbine at Casey station since 1996 where the wind speeds have been recorded in excess of 90 m/s. Since 2003 we have also been operating 2 x 300kW Enercon wind turbines at Mawson station where the annual average wind speeds at 10m is 12 m/s. This system is able to provide the entire station load of 500-600kW (heat and power) but as with all these systems, diesel is required as a back-up for when the winds drop.

Australia is currently running a demonstration project at Mawson which is producing and storing hydrogen (from wind and water) for use in IC engines and fuel cells when the wind drops and the turbines are unable to keep up with the load requirements. When fully implemented, this will allow a true year-round operation of an Antarctic research station, fossil-fuel free. Our web site www.aad.gov.au gives details of these system but papers have been presented at international Antarctic conferences (eg SCALOP and COMNAP)" (source; renewableenergyworld.com)

Mawson wind farm

So all you need is the wind - and that is about location, location, location.

Have you researched that?

You are looking for sites with over 5 m/s for at least 12 hours/day, 365, to be viable - without a subsidy (or tax deduction).

Yes I saw the dialogue with the Captain.

You Guys are Truly Amazing SFP

Lightning

Might I also mention steel is a conductor.

I imagine Stuey and Chris will be scratching their heads over the post above as well.

Kyzine
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#1663
In reply to #1662

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/07/2010 9:35 PM

I scratch my head over almost everything!

as far as metal buildings having lighting rods and conductors... my brother was out in the rain when he was 5 years old (before I was born).. and happend to be touching the side of our house (aluminum siding) when the house was hit. He was wearing rubber boots, so he survived, but my mother said their were bruises all down his spine.

So I think that conductors will prevent people who may be inside the shelter from having significant amounts of lectrickcity pass through them, because the copper will provide a path of lesser resistance.

I know what I know and everything else is just a mystery! For example I've never heard of wind speeds in m/s before.. here it is km/h. (mph in the old days)

"You Guys are Truly Amazing SFP"

I have no clue what htis means. (scratching head again. )

Ky turned me onto this site and product line... which I think could be very helpful in increasing windspeed by decreasing surface resistance on approach?? and of course it mentions a whole host of other applications haiti could use. I even see my canals in there. http://www.austliningco.com.au/alc.html

Chris
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#1666
In reply to #1663

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/08/2010 12:22 AM

Actually, so long as you are inside a metal building when it is struck by lightning, you should notice nothing, unless the floor is insulated from the rest of the structure. Sort of like the safest place to be in a lightning storm is inside your automobile. Just don't get out of the car while lightning is occurring...Lightning is looking for the easiest path to ground. If you are standing outside the structure and touch it when it is hit by lightning, you could possibly turn out to be the shortest path to ground (since you are standing on wet ground, and most likely the building is sitting on dry ground...Inside, you are unlikely to form an alternative path to ground.
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#1667
In reply to #1666

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/08/2010 12:41 AM

Don't be the ground path.

Birds on the wire don't get shocked to death.

I've worked with heavy draw lights in heavy rain and if the system isn't grounded, and sometimes if the damned light itself, plus its metal stand isn't grounded, I've gotten shocks.

Had one case with 1000 amp gennys where in heavy rain I asked the Op why he hadn't spike grounded the genny. "It's chassie frame grounded, we don't need to ground it."

Lots of crew hits that hurt. Spike ground of the Genny into the ground and we could work without risk of a heart attack.

Just my life.

P.S. Much of the equipment I worked with could well be drawing 200 amps in the rain in temporary situations. I never went to school much for this stuff, so all I know is from getting hurt.

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#1668
In reply to #1663

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/08/2010 12:52 AM

One lucky brother. Lightning 'coats' a structure with a charge, so being in contact with the outside is not a good idea.

But a container is much like an aircraft or enclosed vehicle. The charge will run over it and on to ground. Inside nothing will happen except one hell of a noise. Unless you have unshielded wiring bringing a nearby strikes energy into the box.

But I spoke of wiring and power and earthed metal boxes and Haiti, again, quite recently.

Sorry about the wind speed terminology. m/s is the wind velocity unit, same as m/s is for all the other energy formula. Ft/s is the imperial unit.

Traveling a 1 m/s for an hour (3600 s) you would cover 3600 m = 3.6 km. Or the 90 m/s quoted = (90 x 3.6) km/h = 324 km/h ~= 200 mph.

In turbine industry and formula speak; "U" is the initial velocity, in m/s, of wind entering the rotor. As said on another thread, you can do a 'rule of thumb' for a turbines power by P = 1/4 U3A, where P is power out in Watts, A is effective area intersecting U.

It's a handy guesstimate tool for "over Betz' law" claims. A bit like "over unity" in Wind. Betz looks complicated but boils down to; you cannot capture more than .59 of the energy. This at the rotor. All gearbox losses, alternator losses and electrical distribution losses, storage losses (if batteries) or grid demand matching hiccups, come of this "P output".

Meaning: Many inventors and marketers have been 'fibbing' since 1919.

It seems like not a big cheat to 'round' Watts and wind speed conversion into 'civilian units' - but as wind energy cubes - great scope exists.

Clue; ±n = 55-46
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#1669
In reply to #1668

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/08/2010 1:26 AM

Whatever, I've also seen an ungrounded aircraft that was sitting on its tires on a ramp that got hit where it was at it's highest point, the tail. Melted that right a good deal.

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#1675
In reply to #1669

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/08/2010 11:11 PM

The Dielectric strength and Dielectric constant of rubber/neoprene/butyl/nitrile used in tires, plus the addition of carbon black, means at a million volts, they are quite good conductors. Or they are quite good insulators up to a certain voltage - then they aren't. Meaning the plane was grounded so far the lighting saw things.

You see this conductivity at high voltage in the tires of vehicles with live HT lines fallen on them. The tires will often catch fire due to heating by the current flow.

Not that tires are ever more conductive than a person forming a parallel circuit.

(You have a similar "not conducting then conducting" with the M-R Brute, so the need for the ballast to control the current once it strikes. Or HMI's, for that matter)
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#1671
In reply to #1663

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/08/2010 5:00 AM

G'day Chris

My Brother peed on an electrified fence when he was eight. He found out early that he had balls. So much for the fun bit.

The link supplied could be helpful in many ways, you are right. To get the stuff there with all kit and caboodle is another matter. I have seen their workshop (more like an arena) and to apply this technology in Haiti, now and then, is impossible.

Only pre-manufactured parts could be supplied but that could be done from anywhere. There are many companies that render these services. The membranes they are using are just incredibly tough. I have samples that you and nobody would be able to rip, even if one would cut a leading edge. Anyway, it beats any product I have ever witnessed. This is not a commercial for the mentioned company but it is worth a thought or two using such materials in building structures or making them part of it.

The biggest problem is: how to attach it effectively and economically.

Hope all goes well, Ky.

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#1664
In reply to #1662

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/07/2010 9:38 PM

I imagine Stuey and Chris will be scratching their heads over the post above as well.

Wind energy?

Way ahead of you, Bud.

Actually got the t'shirt.

Re 'ground stakes'. I wasn't going to say anything, but now..........

Here, they're gal. steel. Regrettably grounding to the gal. water pipes has been outlawed ( although I do know some which still are). It was more fun.

Stu. ps. good post tho'.

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#1665
In reply to #1664

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/07/2010 11:53 PM

Yeah, Plumbers working underground in NYC had some problems with grounds to plumbing, fire plugs and whatnot metal into the ground. After years on CR4 I think they ought to just have a grounding spike for sale, along with a Bosch Hammerdrill for driving it, and maybe some Thermoplastic and a Pick and shovel for the horizontal ground trench when dealing with rocky soil. Why people continuously ask, week after week, day after day, "Should I ground my electrical system? Or do I really have to ground the generator?" is enough so that on CR4 there ought to be a free standing section devoted to why you ground, and how to do it, and Click Here, get a Grounding Spike and a Sledge Hammer, you numbskull!

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#1670
In reply to #1662

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/08/2010 4:07 AM

Hi Kyzine

I have not had much time lately and would like to know why you are suddenly (since weeks) appear as a guest. What happened? SFP is not the true answer is it? I find what you write very refreshingly pragmatic and down to earth.

Were does, or did, the "over sucking" occur? I must have missed something which would not surprise me, at the pace I am going at the moment. If you are Australian then you would know that "getting the drift" of our way of saying things can be sometimes be interpreted as rude, inflammatory, insensitive, too frank, too free, completely out of context (no not like Trans The Master of them all, but.....). Good that you are still with us and it seems we live on the same continent. Well, me on a smaller part if it anyway.

PM me if your guest status is to embarrassing to mention in this forum. Just want to know what one has to do to be bared from CR4. Me missus would love it!

All the best from here, Ky.

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#1672
In reply to #1670

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/08/2010 6:34 AM

"embarrassing"? No not to me. No my banning was preemptive due to "Off Forum" stuff. The "game" if there is one, is waiting for the new Admin to figure it out.

Bottom line: There is no way you or anybody else could get banned like me.

If this disappears - it means they haven't.
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#1673

How to waste money, sustaining disaster relief...

04/08/2010 10:47 PM

Have a look at this, about housing UN staffers in luxury while waiting for tents for Haitians:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/04/08/haiti-ruins-relief-workers-live-large-love-boat/
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#1674
In reply to #1673

Re: How to waste money, sustaining disaster relief...

04/08/2010 11:07 PM

Thanks for that

At first look it seem to blow my ship breaking thread

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/51898

out of the water. I have just not had the time to contribute any more but am sure that it could be done much cheaper. It is a numbers game and bean counting is not my forte. A lot of people have a lot to answer for. Shame, shame, shame.

Hope all goes well, Ky.

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#1676
In reply to #1673

Re: How to waste money, sustaining disaster relief...

04/08/2010 11:34 PM

It is no surprise to me.

Inaction and waste in the case of Haiti, causing the preventable deaths of tens of thousands will be nothing less than genocide. Equally, laying the country open for takeover by empire builders is just as evil.

As with a long list of other national and international government related functions, the goals of the organization(s) are not aligned with humanity. They are a bigger enemy than natural disaster.

The tools of obstruction, confusion, waste, are presented as the honest efforts of the front liners who know nothing of the overall strategies. If the chaos strategy is deemed unsuccessful, the other option that will be marketed is totalitarianism. These are the ways of governments.

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#1677
In reply to #1673

Re: How to waste money, sustaining disaster relief...

04/09/2010 12:25 AM

could have been 1000 or 2000 containers already

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#1678
In reply to #1677

Re: How to waste money, sustaining disaster relief...

04/09/2010 1:15 AM

I don't have a problem with westerners living in "luxury" whilst providing aid. I do have a problem with providing 'luxury' for ditherers.

But I think my major 'objection' to this setup is it bypasses the Haitian economy totally.

The "rent" (including fuel, food, wages and services) goes to other people and countries.

For instance the Brazilian peace keepers would spend something locally and create some opportunities for Haitian entrepreneurship. As would any "Aid Worker" on land. Especially with the 'need' for a minimum first world lifestyle/comfort expectation.

This "by-passing" of Haiti economic opportunity is also an 'objection' I have had to a number of proposals to "import materials, skills and technology via contracts to foreign suppliers". It simply builds a wall around the main money and the dregs 'feed a man for a day' - not teach him to fish.

In fact - the way they have done this, teaches him he's not getting a line near the water.

Kyzine

p.s I forgot to sign a few posts earlier - I assume you guys worked it out on content - not that it matters who wrote it.
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#1679
In reply to #1678

Re: How to waste money, sustaining disaster relief...

04/09/2010 1:39 AM

Ya! what he said!

now that my blood pressure has come back down a bit... I agree.. there is a long list of ways that the situation yells 'wrong' to me. but you have articulated some important ones.

Mostly you Kyzine, are recognizable by your incisive insights and wisdom, but I do occasionally wish you used bigger sentences to describe things more fully. Your common sense already contains condensed wisdom, and as such, does not need to be condensed any further.

Chris
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#1680
In reply to #1679

Re: How to waste money, sustaining disaster relief...

04/09/2010 10:16 AM

Hi ALL, Good thoughts Chris

Thinking outside the box ball's in your court step up to it web integration user scenarios Python leverage 90% solution Opera fast-track challenge Windows converge performance management best of breed bite the bullet proactive horizontal market Perl C lightweight ship date cutting edge high-performance at Stanford, we killer app gating item(s) clear board three-week betas knock your socks off embedded mission statement impact.

Web 2.0 high-level vision guesstimate best of class working the issue putting on a hat going forward time-shift incent api design review fixed in next release scriptable milestone solution"to spec" HTML collaborative heuristic dialog with take off-line impact leverage schema red flag robust sweet spot mission statement.

NIH enterprise ship date skill sets elf-leadership grow content providers convergence under promise and over deliver initiative tight integration task-driven social bookmarking guesstimate revolutionize first class vertical market applet touch base strategic alliance soup to nuts diversify team building transition.

PHP interoperability re-branding Java facilitate regression test mission statement framework 2.0 working the issue sanity check feature creep value oriented culture unit test going forward collateral talk to issue critical path.

Big Picture Drink the Kool-Aid Mind Share Pipeline Process Demographic Heavy lifting Go Public Leadership Ecosystem Integration Performance (free square) Restructuring Google Juice 30,000 foot view Measurement Monetize Utilize Policy[ies] No-Brainer Granular Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) Exposure Optimization.

E-tailers Back-end Ball Park Bottom Line Seamless Downsize Up to speed Turnkey Reconfigure Milestone Phase Demographic BUZZWORD (free square) Out Source Vision statement Fault Tolerant Prototype A-B Testing Issues Service Oriented Touch points Metrics No-Brainer Off-line Customer Oriented fully facilitated.

And there you have it - Done deal.

Well done Everyone!

Excellent Work!

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#1681
In reply to #1680

Re: How to waste money, sustaining disaster relief...

04/09/2010 10:50 AM

Send 'em a Turbo Encabulator; that'll take care of everything.

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#1682
In reply to #1680

Re: How to waste money, sustaining disaster relief...

04/09/2010 10:50 AM

ditto.

Bugsy
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#1683
In reply to #1680

Re: How to waste money, sustaining disaster relief...

04/09/2010 11:48 AM

???
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#1684
In reply to #1680

Re: How to waste money, sustaining disaster relief...

04/09/2010 12:22 PM

I'm so happy that you used paragraphs!

I think you have nailed it. Total cost of ownership is a concept that applies to the Haitians acceptance of aid. The way that it is currently being handled by the UN et al is raising the TCO through the roof, making it a negative.

Here is what I mean. Aid is a commodity at the international level. The money, the food, the logistics, the training and vetting of participants etc. If Haiti were to be free to choose from amongst different Aid providers, they would in a sense be able to choose comparatively better scenarios for themselves

TANSTAAFL. Whatever is provided has a price tag. That price tag includes a certain amount of goods and services, along with a certain amount of donated money, and a certain amount of slippage. (waste, markup, etc)

In the case of the UN, the slippage is grossly high for the amount of money and aid received, and most especially, in the timeliness, where in a crisis, slippage means loss of life. I think that the slippage is subtracted from every other aspect of aid provision.

Therefore

What do you think? suggestions? rearrangements of the formula?

Chris
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#1685
In reply to #1680

Re: How to waste money, sustaining disaster relief...

04/10/2010 9:54 AM

ditto.

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#1692
In reply to #1680

Re: How to waste money, sustaining disaster relief...

04/10/2010 1:31 PM

Do you have a point in all of your ranting?

Kyzine very clearly signs his posts.
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#1686

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/10/2010 10:20 AM

Good grief, you guys. Don't you recognize parody when you see it? And have you never read a government report?

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#1687
In reply to #1686

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/10/2010 10:58 AM

Yes Tornado, I've read many a Government Report in the past and promptly dropped many of the worse ones directly into the Circular File, basically because the idiots that authored them didn't have a clue how to write English properly, especially when the targeted audience is meant for other Governmental employees, big-monied governmental consultants, GNO's, and politicians. I really detest Government-Speak, and believe me when I was serving with USACE I saw a ton of it, propagated by both US Army personnel and civilians alike. It seemed to me that there was a mentality ingrained in the USACE structure that if you couldn't speak and write technical gov-speak then you would not get promoted. It was like working with a thousand Gen. Alexander Haig clones! Most of these people would never make it in the "real World", where well-written and understandable = professionally written, especially when it comes to Engineering Reports, Technical Manuals, and the like that are generated by consultants. I do admit that there are exceptions

My basic point here is that if you cannot speak or write properly, than how the hell is anyone going to be able to understand what you really mean and want, parody or not?

Don't get me wrong here, I love a good joke as well as the next guy, but to write such a long parody having no intrinsic value whatsoever is just a waste of X-amount of Kilobytes of valuable data storage.

IMHO, "Parody" doesn't have a roll in here.....and I suggest that our "Guest" take it to the joker's forum found at another URL. I found that this type of posting to be useless and an insult to my intelligence; it being just plain garbage and had no redeeming value in respect to the blog thread.

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#1689
In reply to #1687

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/10/2010 12:13 PM

Because it was an unusual form of communication, I just picked the one word that triggered a thought in me, and responded to that. (as though the rest were perfectly understandable. I knew it was all tongue in cheek)

However, I was perfectly serious about my TCO and formula, and still want a critique, political perspective etc.

Chris
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#1691
In reply to #1689

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/10/2010 1:28 PM

I like your formula, and gave it a GA. It conveys some important features. One might try to "tune" it by adding/deleting/changing weightings, etc., but such fiddling would probably not help much.

There is lots of good material on this thread, but most of the governmentoids seem not to be picking up on it very well, despite the Herculean efforts of Geoff, CW, et. al., including your own.

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#1702
In reply to #1689

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/11/2010 1:14 PM

Ok - being perfectly serious about your formula.

A lot of perception on Aid is that it is a charity, not a business - or somehow doesn't involve business to provide the goods delivered.

The expectation is that every dollar donated aught to manifest in value to the target recipients.

So let's have a broad brush look at 'value' in the normal commercial system.

A typical manufacture operation spends 1/3 on material, 1/3 on labor and 1/3 on profit and overheads.

So you could regard the "material" in the thing delivered as 1/3 of 'value'.

That thing is now wholesaled - meaning transported warehoused, distributed. That business in turn sees the manufactures selling price (MSP) as its 1/3 "material" , the next 1/3 (transport, tariffs, duties, taxes, to their door) as its "labor costs" and the final 1/3 as overheads and profit.

So the "material" component is now 1/3 of 1/3. Then it gets retailed - again on a 1/3 basis.

Or $1 dollar of materials sells over the counter for $27

e,g $10 of tent materials = $30 tent = $270 + tax

Aid - running in this system - therefore would deliver $10 of material for each $270 'donated'.

"Retail" may not fully impact, but of course "Ballmart board/share holders", will still want the profit component retail would have shown, though it is supply direct from 'warehouse'. And no, they certainly would not just let the Haitians pick it up from their suppliers at the MSP.

NGO's have their overheads and anybody supplying to a NGO or government bureaucracy adds on the costs of 'dealing with ditherers'.

So the $270 might drop by tax, but the "additional administration" and "logistics" take the "cost" ex NGO, to $810; plus delivery to and distribution costs in the zone. To an 'in-zone' contractor, the first 1/3 is $810........$2430

As said; this "Aid System" puts the spend outside the economy of the recipient nation.

So to have an acceptable result, the spend inside the zone has to be adjusted.

Equally it is PR feasible to move a significant portion of the Aid NGO's overheads to the Aid zone - thus a far larger "cents in the dollar is going directly to the people in the disaster zone".

Or a dozen other "buzzword bingo phrases" that mean 3% material value FOB Haiti would be a 'miracle result' for Haiti. (FOB = free on board. "Haiti" being the ship)

"Delay", as you can see now, is a function of deciding on division of the 97% to enable delivery of the 3.

So looking back over all the "events", "announcements", "solution lobbies" and arrival of "floating administration", it may make better sense - or at least comprehension possible - of the process you are trying to put into math.

But the answer will always be "less than 3%" unless you come up with a radically different system - and that will be over the "Full Force of PR" of the guys chasing the 97%.

A bit like that (insert series of additional disparaging adjectives) "rock star" who 'went direct' and "we" were/are 'above' approaching.

Coupled with the cash and ability to hop on the internet, buy in the tent for $30 + freight FOB Haiti, his kind of thinking puts the $2400 in jeopardy.

So you have two formulas to consider;

1 delivers sub 3% material

2 delivers ~ 30% material.

1 has 10 times the vested interest attraction, meaning

2 don't have a chance.

Kyzine
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#1703
In reply to #1702

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/11/2010 1:39 PM

Hi Kyzine,

I think we are seeing things similarly. One of my main points is that there can be and are variations or differences in the 'efficiency' (3% vs 4% or whatever %) of the organizations providing the aid, and in the philosophical approaches taken, and that those receiving Aid ought to have Choice in the matter. Competition is the one key ingredient in economics that drives prices down and pushes efficiency up.

People and organizations like JPHRO have outperformed (embarrassed) the larger organizations in terms of this efficiency. Therefore, because it has been proven to be possible to have variation in efficiency, it is not a law of nature to have such low efficiencies as demonstrated by the large 'globalist' organizations like the League of United Nations.

Good stuff Kyz.

Chris
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#1704
In reply to #1702

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/11/2010 2:23 PM

I don't quite capture your summation Kyzine. I do capture the idea that "It costs what it costs and takes what it takes."

Far as my disparaging of "Rock stars, and Movie Stars" this was not a blanket or complete dismiss of their power, and good intentions. I remember some disparaging Geraldo Rivera for grandstanding the rescue of some in New Orleans, and said, "Sure, but still those he rescued were rescued, some weren't."

My issue with Mr. Penn, and his recommendations for the use of Eminent Domain was based on reported corruption endemic to the Haitian Government. I had long suggested that it was likely that much of the reason that there was lassitude and resistance to plopping shipping containers down where shacks were had to do with claims to property represented by anything of any substance.

Capitalism does not work without traditions of property rights, and contract law. This is one of the reasons I had long posited that the perfect resolution of the Cold War would have been Statehood for Russia. In the case of what I knew about Haiti I was reticent about encouraging more power be given to a traditionally corrupt government, and encouraged Deeds, and Land Swaps as better.

I had long resisted encouraging Haitians to simply take or occupy Shipping Containers however they might without regard for property rights, and law, looking at how that might well discourage investments in Haiti over the long haul.

I had also addressed the conflict over free food, and market food grown by Haitians.

While my letter to the Red Cross was criticized roundly as too complicated, I think it will stand up well as time marches on.

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#1708
In reply to #1704

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/12/2010 5:52 AM

My "summation" is a quite small team with appropriate skills could manage supply and rebuild a Haitian economy via including Haiti in the funding loop - so simultaneously financing the Haiti rebuilding process. Additionally it has the rebuild 'spin-off' and psychological recovery, Aid totally lacks.

Supply Mr Penn with the right team and he could "run Haiti". "Eminent Domain" by Mr Penn. It is not hard to seed this solution in a Celebrity's mind. PR by stealth; "danger Will Robinson - dictator alert!

So how "avoidable" is the E.D. issue on board S.S. Haiti?

E.D. would be automatic if the Dominican republic took over, or the US annexed, or someone invaded, or a civil war was fought and won, or a foreign power supported a local coup, or a celebrity became 'Regent', or Haiti becomes communist, or....is 'rescued' by a financial consortium against a lean on its only tangible asset - land.

Choose your outcome and "It costs what it costs and takes what it takes."

Consider in that choice; if you want Perfect - expect it to take forever - in fact, never expect to see a first step.

"Perfect and Posts" is an easy one to play with people who like "better" so tend to need "fixed goalposts" and a "cut-off point".

Kyzine.
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Stueywright
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#1710
In reply to #1708

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/12/2010 6:41 AM

Damn!

You're right, again.

The whole thing could be run by ten intelligent people, (like you and I, LOL) although they'd be required to be politically benign for it to really succeed, and win medals.

Hell, this whole country we're in could be governed so. Said it before, and I guess the opportunity will crop up again from time-to-time.

Brings firmly into mind when I formed the GOYA Club with a bunch of cohorts here.

The general community thought we were an art appreciation club.

But no! It was in responce to a call for a communal assistance organisation. Get Off Your Ass.

Getting Close?

Stu

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Garthh
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#1712
In reply to #1710

Shipping Ideas That Can't Be Contained in Standard Housing

04/12/2010 1:06 PM

Everyone duck

there's gonna be a beat down

We're having a Gasp Political discussion

Assume we were forming an organization to rebuild & we have a clean sheet of paper

How would the duties of the 10 people be divided up?

Wouldn't you want an odd number to prevent ties?

Of course with 10 a clear majority of 6 would be required or should 7 be required, anything less being tabled...

any interest & you all know what I'll do
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Stueywright
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#1713
In reply to #1712

Re: Shipping Ideas That Can't Be Contained in Standard Housing

04/12/2010 1:43 PM

You do what you do best, and I'l do what I do best and Kyz can write the letters. We just need seven more. Any takers?

It's as good a process as what's been happening, and indeed what's likely to happen.

That'll f**k em up.

No? Stu.

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Garthh
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Safety - Hazmat - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Engineering Fields - Transportation Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Technical Fields - Procurement - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Architectural Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Marketing/Advertising - New Member Engineering Fields - Food Process Engineering - New Member

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#1714
In reply to #1713

Organizational Ideas That Can't Be Contained in a Standard Housing

04/12/2010 2:19 PM

This thread has turned into the biggest reach around, I ever seen on this site.

Like many organizations the need to be recognized superseding everything else

I can understand why so little get done by usaid, judging by the examples set by veterans here of similar bureaucracies...

I've been rebuked more times on this thread for having an opinion, than any other [& I'm on some silly threads], even mentioning this will have consequences...
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