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spacecannon
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Shipping Container Housing

01/16/2010 12:05 PM

I have a civil engineer friend whoose dream it is to design and build shipping container housing for general use and for emergency use, like an instant city for Haiti. Im trying to motivate him to live his dream, so what does everyone think about container housing?

spacecannon

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Geoff Daly
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#1613
In reply to #1612
 Find in discussion

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/02/2010 11:18 PM

Trans,

you as usual raise some good points:

The Army units are made by a number of contractors here in US and Europe..TAW is one in Tampa and Bob Vila did his show on one use of containers.

Ky does not have to go and commandeer any container ships...Maersk and OCL are being approached now. Army also being approached about using some LCs and field cranes.

Put the question too Garfield and Larry who are connected to GlobalCon as well.

The Haitian Government just passed an eminent domain order for the acquisition of needed land...so the UN does not even have to be involved...as Sean Penn in his interview with Anderson Cooper said they (UN, USAID/FEMA and Some NGO's) are so screwwed up right now.

The French Government have offered to rebuild the Palace, Cathedral and University as part of Frances part of helping rebuilding Haiti and just one of several iniatiatives.

There are one or two European private security details guarding some European hospital group volunteers...because the UN troops are there only for show, no enforcement. They are not even allowed to be "lock and loaded" whilst on patrol, even limited to the mag load. CIA agents would also not really be allowed to operate properly even if on the ground. Needs another approach for security, rebuilding a properly trained police force (lost 40% of there trained officers), maybe let the CIA or Us Military Police help train?

Why just Louisiana?

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cwarner7_11
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#1614
In reply to #1613

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/02/2010 11:40 PM

"Why just Louisiana?"

Language.
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Stueywright
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#1616
In reply to #1614

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/02/2010 11:50 PM

Could send 'em to Quebec in the winter. Then at least they'd want to get back home asap. LOL!!!

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dvmdsc
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#1618
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Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 12:20 AM

Stu. It takes a year for the French to understand the Quebec(quoi?)

LOL

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CaptMoosie
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#1620
In reply to #1618

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 1:35 AM

I'll Second that dvmdsc....I took Parisian French throughout Junior High and Senior High for a total of 6 years and every time I visit Quebec, and especially Montreal, I find that I haven't freaking clue what they the French Canadians are saying! *LOL* Scary that I wasted all that time studying the "wrong" French, Qui?

*Still scratching my head about last visit to Quebec City & Montreal........ohh my my.

Chris, the rendering looks fantastic! You're very talented and deserve a huge pat on the back, a grade of A+, and 5 "Atta-Boys"!

Geoff, I've been out of the loop sort of the past few weeks. What's up with everything? BTW, Skype is giving me fits to the nth degree. I tried calling you, but the damn software keeps crashing on me. I may have to reload it after returning from long Island this weekend after visiting my wife's family for Easter. Then I'll try it again next week and see if we can connect, n'est pas?

Going to be very busy here the next 2 months due to various "Honey Do List" projects: install new 500 LF of 6' stockade fence and remove old one; till the veggie garden and sow veggie seeds; continuation of last year's landscaping project of establishing wild flower and annuals beds involving 4 million seeds; and last but not least fabrication of rebar for my Tool shed "Alaskan Slab"/mat foundation. And I still have to finish the darn Construction Drawings and Presentation Drawing set for the Zoning Board of Appeals. Oh joy of joys. So, I will be very busy and might not be able to help much concerning the blog, but will try my best. Of course everything hinges on the state of my Diabetic heel wound.....have had 3 treatments so far with DermaGrafts and looking good...time will tell on healing process.

Stuey, mega thanks for the Diabetes info you sent to me. It was very informative and helpful. More information presented than anything I've ever gotten from a whole sh*t-load of MD's (many of which I personally fired!!!!).

I would like to extend my best wishes for each and every one of you to have a Happy Passover or Easter, depending on your beliefs. Anyhow, please have a great weekend everyone and be safe if travelling the roads and airways!

===Mark, aka CaptMoosie

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chrisg288
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#1621
In reply to #1620

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 2:33 AM

Thanks Captain,

have you been putting raw organic honey on your heel? thats what the ancient egyptians did, for wounds that don't heal.. (no pun intended)

Chris
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CaptMoosie
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#1629
In reply to #1621

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 8:31 AM

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the honey idea. Unfortunately I cannot use honey or anything else on the wound. The Surgeons at the Wound Care Center have instructed me to keep the DermaGraft absolutely dry between weekly visits. So far with 3 of the skin grafts installed after debriedment of the wound (ie, cutting away the dead tissue, but they always go a little too far and get the health tissue as well...OOUUCCHH!!!!!), the wound has closed-up about 70%. It's progress finally. This is the 3rd time I've had to go through this process in the past 2.5 years and it sucks because it really slows down my mobility and can't be active as much as I would like to be....it also slows down my weight loss program as well...so far I've gone down 110# but since being immobile starting around the Beginning of Dec. I've gained 40# back! YUCK The doctors have instructed me to stay off the heel, which means no walking and no exercise workouts. Kinda counter-productive if you ask me!!

Have a Happy Easter!

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#1883
In reply to #1629

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/23/2010 1:06 AM

Swim in saltwater dude, get your exercise and cauterize the wound....Dude!
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Stueywright
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#1624
In reply to #1620

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 4:08 AM

You're welcome.

If you really want to beat it, you can, with their help. But you really have to Want To.

Cheers,

Stu.

ps "time heals all wounds" and also "time wounds all heels".

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cwarner7_11
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#1622
In reply to #1618

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 2:58 AM

Actually, Haitian Creole is closer to Louisiana Creole, which originated in Canada when a bunch of French Canadians resettled in the Mississippi delta area. Or something like that. Sometimes the details get lost in the translation....
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Stueywright
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#1623
In reply to #1622

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 4:00 AM

Yeh, But..... With the base lingo you can make yourself understood. And so can they.

I can't speak the language very well at all, but I've always been able to take a pee, or order a meal, or get a kip. I've found if they want your money, they'll listen.

French, Italian, Spanish, German. We're lucky that English is such an amalgam of all of those.

Some of the early English Nobility couldn't (or wouldn't) speak English.

Stu.

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#1630
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Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 11:16 AM

The most important is ordering a beer- something I have never had any problem with anywhere in the world...no matter what the language.
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CaptMoosie
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#1635
In reply to #1630

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 11:52 AM

Amen to that!

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sue
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#1626
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Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 5:40 AM

After the Cajuns were unceremoniously kicked out of Acadiana (from whence the term Cajun derives) in about 1750, they traveled down the eastern seaboard, some settling in New England. The majority made new homes in south-central Louisiana and developed their own dialect which might not be well understood by Haitians and which is largely frowned upon by those who speak Parisian French.

However, Cajuns are a minority in the state. Jus' my two doubloons, cher.
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Tornado
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#1627
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Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 6:21 AM

For a poetic treatment of the move from Acadia to Louisiana, check out Henry Wadsworth Longfellow's "Evangeline." If you visit Cajun country, where my mother grew up, you might run into some wizened nutria/muskrat trappers. These animals tunnel from one rice paddy to another, thereby draining the upper ones. Apart from the pelts, the trappers derive their income from preventing this drainage. As side benefits to visiting the area around Lafayette, Lake Charles, Welch, DeRidder, etc., you might see a few alligators, catch the overland crayfish migration, and listen to some zydeco. The French is indeed different among France, Belgium, Quebec, Haiti, and other former colonies.

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sue
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#1628
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Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 6:28 AM

Lived most of my life there (New Orleans area), and well remember the damage done by nutria and the fine taste of alligator sauce piquante.
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cwarner7_11
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#1633
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Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 11:34 AM

Don't know about your alligator sauce piquante- only alligator I ate was at an over-rated French quarter restaurant that was supposed to be the ultimate (prices were, as I remember), and it was tough and tasted fishy. Now, crayfish gumbo...My memories of New Orleans was that to find good eats, one had to get away from the main tourist areas...Also, the good music was found in the out-of-the-way places, not the tourist traps (when the tourists discovered Fat City, it went down to the level of the French Quarter, in my opinion).
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sue
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#1634
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Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 11:48 AM

Fat City, intended to draw tourist $ out to the 'burbs, never took off. Full of massage parlors and the like now (well, maybe tourists want that...) And you're right about finding the best eats and tunes---they're not on Bourbon St. But the best food on this or any other planet is found in southern Louisiana, thanks to the French, West African, and Haitian culinary contributions (I think I just hurt myself bringing this back on topic).
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#1636
In reply to #1634

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 12:00 PM

Ohhh God, stop it guys, now you're making me hungry! LOL

Never had Gator before, therefore I'll pass on it. But I do wonder what one of them thar Nutria Rats tastes like BBQ'ed on a stick Cajun style??? Yummers...I betcha not many tourists would try it.....

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sue
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#1637
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Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 12:05 PM

Gator is great fried. There's a great deal of satisfaction in eating something tht could have eaten you.

An attempt to create a market for nutria meat some years ago failed dismally. Sharshooters were sent out into subsurban canals to kill the critters, who were undermining the embankments. However, recipes abound, should you care to try some.
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cwarner7_11
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#1638
In reply to #1634

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 12:10 PM

No, the best food on the planet is found in Tokyo...And I am the one dragging this off-topic, not you. I am the one that gets angry when it goes too far off topic, because I am doing a synopsis of all the various threads, and I have to go through the whole thing three or four times, weeding out all the off-topic stuff, the repetitions, the rants, etc...
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Geoff Daly
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#1639
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Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 2:19 PM

Charlie,

Tut tut for breaking your own rule...we forgive you, Happy Easter.

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sue
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#1640
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Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 2:36 PM

Since we're in the realm of off-topic---isn't the title a bit of an oxymoron, or at best, poorly worded? Jes' sayin...

GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster
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cwarner7_11
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#1642
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Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 4:33 PM

This is what most companies in the disaster relief business are after- "Sustainable Disaster"...
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Geoff Daly
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#1643
In reply to #1640

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 10:10 PM

Sue,

Maybe!

Concerning post 1590 and Charlies 1648, reply on GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster.

There is maybe a misnomer in its use and general teminology use:

What GlobalCon is determining by these words is to ensure the site selection and buildings/configuration are sustainable in a Hurricane, tropical strom or the heavy rains they experience by offering a safer and more stable shelter than has existed there to date.

Just look at the continued uselessnes of the rebuilding by the UN, USAID/FEMA,IOM including the World Bank/IMF/IAD over the years. By giving contracts to companies who are only interested in maintaining there future contracts for the next Disaster by substandard building materials and cements (from China, Africa and also the DR). No encouragement to imporve anything, just pay off who ever is in power by threats or word doctor spinning...like "do as we say or want and you will get your next money check and we will leave you alone"....all about money/graft by outsiders who only profit and commit fraud with the money they get from there contracts.(there are currently 6+ companies in Haiti who have Federal indictments against them for many millions of $$$...Fluor, Chemonics, GEO -aka Blackwater,CHFI to name a couple all given no-bid contracts by the UN, USAID/FEMA in Jan/Feb for $300+ million)

The UN has an agenda which intends to keep nations like Haiti as is...poor and uneducated.

SO the use of shipping containers has always been in everyones sight, including GlobalCon's but not the UN, USAID/FEMA or some NGO's...as they want "disaster".

Whereas everyone else considers the need for 'sustainability" in a disaster, including GlobalCon (why Chris and Garefield have exchanged ideas/drawings etc with the CR4 community)

So we and everyone continues with our ideas/conepts for using shipping containers, which we all know can be easily attainable. GlobalCon also see the need for a transparent/accountable web site for all who end up being involved when there negotiations are finalized for two large community projects somewhere near Leogane west of PAP being seen on....then everyone knows where the money is and goes.

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#1644
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Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 11:52 PM

At least GlobalCon has shown up here to fight it out.

I'm the meanest son of a b*tch here. Well, maybe not. Garthh is a little meaner. But anyway, I'm mean.

What scouts have been there on the ground and know where to put shipping containers in complexes for school, clinic and market assemblages?

Why shouldn't we just tell Haitians to go steal containers, and do what they can with them.

Why shouldn't we just tell Haitians that there are ships in the Hong Kong Harbor that they can just take if they are unoccupied? -and it is legal under Maritime law.

I've called and written to the Haitians. I've called and written to my local Congressman pictured shaking hands with Preval. I've written and spoken with those at Clemson U, involved.

I asked Globalspec for money for at the least, a scout.

Said somebody will be spending money for and in Haiti.

Is Global Con sending Accountants to Haiti? Cool!

Global Con Accountants Arrive in Haiti, Breaking News.

Haiti World the Soap Opera Continues, tune in tomorrow. P.S. The Chicken Voudun ceremony was canceled. All chickens were eaten. Port peaceful. Haitians wait in the harbor of Cap Haitian and Port-au-Prince for jobs on cruise ships. 2,000 jobs offered, 250,000 apply.

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#1645
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/04/2010 5:24 AM

Plainly Geoff has Chris designing the Dioceses HQ / school / medical center / NGO Admin - not a village.

Not enough catchment for a meaningful Haitian population, not enough outdoor space - and some interesting crush points if shaken.

The water numbers run out at 5.4 liters/day on 4 lineal container feet per head of accommodation.

7.6 l/day/head if you tarp the middle, making the skylights a ?

But it could support "sustainably" - 11 to 16 'westerners' limited to 150 l / day (down from 600/day)

Which also means it expends between 4.2 to 6 containers per person housed.

Best "Haitian" outcome is 20 l/day = 121 population @ 0.6 containers per head housed.

"Rome Courtyard" about 3 times better in every category.

As said, I don't have issue with putting up the pretty but flawed for a funding pitch and then getting real - but it shouldn't be obviously unworkable or no one will think "the CR4 engineers" competent.

And you have to be fairly insensitive or obtuse in marketing to think "Sustainable Disaster" is a good addition to another's thread title, or not 'just asking for it', from the literate.

And therein may lie the problem of the funding going to all these other people.

Kyzine.
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#1646
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/04/2010 8:18 AM

Kyz, you old bastard.

Good numbers.

Fair comment.

I, for one, don't want to look like a dolt when this stuff we're suggesting doesn't work. I'd s'pose the others have like thoughts.

There has been exceptional input in the way of ideas and designs by the guys mentioned. But. Someone has to take this project, now, and sort the plan into a workable one. A single expert entity. Person. Someone without pecuniary interest. Totally transparent. A visionary engineer. On the ground in the affected land. Answerable to us.

Tall order I know.

( What're you doing the rest of your life?)

Scam? What scam! (LOL)

Stu.

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chrisg288
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#1647
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/04/2010 12:35 PM

I have not done anyone's designs other than my own. If they don't work, it is all on me. I post them to cr4 because I know that they will get critiqued, and that intelligent people will appreciate that about cr4. I'm not working for anyone, nor receiving any money, nor do I want to. I do what I do because I enjoy it. When it ceases to provide me with the mental kick I get out if it, I will stop.

However, I agree with what you said about more finalized solutions. CW, et al, has been working on a summarized version of this thread as I understand it. I wonder if it could be made into a thread. I know that you have created your 'alternative' thread in the hopes of creating your version of workable designs, and I have respected that in not posting my crazy ideas to that thread.

I was not showing the rain catchment in my last design simply because it would obscure the entire structure and nobody would be able to see the 'living details'. As for crush, I imagined that structure has multiple methods of controlling things.. clamps, welding, anchor cables, etc. even rubber tires.

Also what is shown is some traffic patterns around such a family oriented cluster, and to explore more self-sufficiency in such an arrangement. Will there be any growing space alloted to people? Who 'owns' the system. Does each family, having had the containers donated, obtain ownership of a 'condominium' in such a complex? How would You (engineers) anchor and secure such a complex? I expect fair criticism and suggestions for improvement.

As for the roman fort idea.. nothing personal. I'm just not much of a fort person. But I think that is the beauty of CR4.. we can differ on what we like or think is a good design. There are different attributes and features to each. The romans did not build forts at home, but only in the wilds, where there was a need to protect the garrison from rebellious groups. We are not trying to create a military structure, but to 'explore' livable constructs in a relatively new architectural medium; containers.

respectfully,

Chris
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#1649
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/04/2010 8:03 PM

Chris,

Are you sure you're replying to me?

Am unaware that I've created an alternative thread in this realm. What is that thread?

I hesitate to critique your designs, for the reason that I never bag anyone who does stuff better than me. My input to you work will only ever be in the form of suggestion to betterment, in a pure engineering sense. Everyone has a different easthetic appreciation (Witness Ant. Gaudi). We've both lived, for a time,in the "cardboard motel" in mining camps, and not really enjoyed the experience. I, for one, hadn't realised the amount of work put in by various people so as to make that system operate as effectively as it does. There are designers, engineers, psychologist, medicos etc, all to preempt and controll the 'herd mentality' and preserve the wellbeing of the individual, so as to allow him/her to apply to the work prescribed.

I support your comments in this post. I am in awe of your ability to invent and render that invention. I do know you're not getting paid.

I know that you didn't draw in the rain harvesting fabric, and the reasons for that.

I still support my comment to KYZ about his numbers tho'. It's this type of observation which needs to be not forgotten, and the numbers are good.

All of this gave rise to my comment.

I do think, as I have said, that it's now time to get someone to run this thing we've created. Without fear or favour. Mentally independent from all of the other "agencies", NGOs, etc who will make money out of the situation other than simply drawing a salary for good work done. Remembering, of course, that if you pay 'peanuts' you WILL get monkeys. All of the information needed to make it a success has already been published ( sometimes a multitude of times) here and, as you have observed, is being collated and summarized. Now I believe it's time for US (that's us, as in we) to appoint someone to run it.

No mistakes allowed.

Cheers,

Stu.

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#1650
In reply to #1649

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/04/2010 8:25 PM

Hi Stuey,

no sorry, I was largely speaking to Kyzine.

Happy Easter everyone!

Chris
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#1652
In reply to #1650

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/04/2010 10:45 PM

Hi Chris, I was going to just leave it as it's more posts, same issue.

I was talking to Trans. You should, as the designer, read my comments as;

I think Neuron is impressive and possibly an architectural benchmark in container based office or light commercial construction.

Then there is Haiti.

------------------------------

Yes engineers are supposed to guide you. E.g.?

If Geoff want's someone's wind turbine on "The" design. I'd encourage Geoff to have the Global Con architect do that.

On the rest; Ask yourself;
Where did "military" come from?

How did "courtyard" get that spin, not "home security" and "social rebuilding"? - though both very much part of the concept.

Similarly, when does this whole "prison", "fort", "military", "kidnapping", "HIV", "Xe", "off contract", dialogue pop up?

I'd say; when a less than "thought through", from 1 or two individuals, gets a "thinking through".

You're not one of those, but like many, you get 'focused elsewhere' by the tactic.

What was prison about the mine? The architecture? or the "social ambiance"? Some Jails are fantastic History

Bottom line Chris - none of this flaw re-cycling, or manipulation by flattery, or waving virtual carrots, reflects badly on your skills or ethics.

p.s. That link could be to Haitian art and decoration.
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#1653
In reply to #1652

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/04/2010 11:06 PM

Thank you for the clarification . I am easy to spin up I suppose, so I own a good measure of responsibility for getting things confused. the 'prison' & 'military' comments are mine as I explained a bit with my diamond mine explanation. I grew up in a military family, and spent my childhood dreaming of wars and fighting and forts, and always thought they were cool. but as I've become more understanding of things as I've gotten older, I tend to see these things with a less rosy glow... forts are weapons, or at least, an extension of military thinking.

I apologize for the broad brush, as I know your engineering analysis was providing good solutions. The neuron could also be seen as a form of fort.

I'll wait for more data on wind proposals before doing anything in that regard.

respectfully,

Chris
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#1657
In reply to #1653

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/05/2010 12:40 AM

Seeds were set on this thread from Haiti day one. I'm aware of both your history and the mine thing from long ago. I tend to remember who said what when and who responded. Your comments are/were 'response' not 'initiating'.

On the wind thing - go read the wind threads.

"The neuron could also be seen as a form of fort" - hardly. Though great potential in vacate leaving booby traps. That would cause both reduction and loss of momentum in an invading force. But what you really want is an invader that thinks containers are bullet resistant - so surrounds these villages and shoots itself.

We over this yet?
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#1658
In reply to #1657

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/05/2010 12:49 AM

yup.

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#1659
In reply to #1657

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/05/2010 8:04 AM

Guess not

we're still here
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#1651
In reply to #1649

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/04/2010 9:29 PM

I had resisted endorsing the use of Eminent Domain for either Shipping Containers, or land.

I've maintained that legal issues were very important for the future of Haiti.

The recommendations of the Movie Star Sean Penn were that Eminent Domain was important to be used in the situation.

It obviously works for those that recognize the issues in the short term. I've tried here and other places to reconcile the short term with the long term issues. This is not the first time I've been rebuffed by Mr. Penn. Like and respect the guy.

Still OKay, if you want nobody to really make any money, and if you want only a short term solution, and want transparency, just encourage Haitians to steal, or occupy shipping containers.

No law needed? No UN needed? War insured. Death and blood in the streets insured.

The Haitians do have a history of putting up with a lot. Next thing you know they of a sudden are not as docile as they were, and kill some people as the French found out.

Short term now I am for encouraging them to steal. They will die anyway. Why not?

Waiting for our help is stupid.

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#1655
In reply to #1647

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/04/2010 11:28 PM

Since it's pile on CC [Canadian Chris]...

I started the latest thread as I said to bump all the threads & get the links on the daily digest.

Kyzine asked [via email] me to post some stuff & I did

just like I will for any of the outsiders or regulars.

I always make an effort to identify the source of content that is not my own.
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#1656
In reply to #1655

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/04/2010 11:59 PM

Yeah, don't pick on Chrisg.

He's the nice guy in the group.

He's a designer and architect. I'm a political scientist and poet. Garthh is a IT, practical engineer.

Ya'll want Haiti to move? Want transparency? Want Eminent Domain to be applied?

Okay now, All righty!

I'm all for it! I'm convinced. I'm going to go back onto Twitter and recommend Haitians just go get shipping containers, or occupy them at the port of either Port-au-Prince, or Cap Haitian.

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#1648
In reply to #1645

Re: Shipping Container Housing

04/04/2010 1:12 PM

For the month of August 2009, and also a week in November, I lived and worked at this diamond mine camp in northern Ontario. I slept in an Atco trailer (top-centre of image), and while there was great food, it was still just a camp with a strong industrial feel to it. not very homey for sure. There were 5000 shipping containers around inspiring such names as 'Sea-Can Alley' (lower left)

In a location where everything is airlifted in, except for a 45 day ice-road window, everything tended to be containerized. living quarters, dining hall was an open concept container building. Gensets, water purification, switchgear, pump houses for dewatering the mine.. all containerized. millions of dollars of equipment all came in containers.. what you can't see in this picture is a road to the north that is a solid kilometer of containers lined up.

Also in this camp was really vigilant security with cameras everywhere. If you even dropped a tool, you weren't allowed to pick it up.. can't pick up gravel. etc. and you were controlled in the parts that you were allowed to go to.. zones had color designations, etc.

I did not enjoy all the security, and it is probably from this experience that I get the 'prison' vibe.. and I do not wish to create that for other people. I wish to create a livable system that provides shelter, defensible positions, but also freedom and culture to inspire growth in the people. I think too much focus on fear-based militaristic thinking will not inspire anything but wars between the small 'city-states', as in the days of old.. This is why I think the neuron based plan is better, as it will encourage a culture of cooperation, which begets respect and freedom.

As I said before, the legacy we leave will teach these people who we are. If all we can think of is hierarchical control structures, that says something about us. Just because forts were good in the wilderness, doesn't mean they worked well. The ancient gods created city states around themselves with people who worshipped them.. but that isn't exactly what we are after either. (while it worked for them)

What we want to bequeath here is a method of living, that inherently inspires happiness in people, freedom and opportunity are essential. (and a fountain) If we can put together not just shelter, but encourage a return to farming and self sufficiency, we will be a long way down the road to a sustainable economy.

Even though the Haitians are poor, the land can still provide much of what they need. If Haiti had been a much more agrarian/fishing oriented society instead of clustering in the city, the death toll would have been much lower. We need to heed that lesson.

Let's try and think of something design plan that will still be beautiful even if it is rusting and old.

Chris
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#1654
In reply to #1643

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/04/2010 11:13 PM

Words have power

Think about what some one stumbling on to this end of the thread would think about the 'Sustainable Disaster" title?

Do you speak for Gcare?

I certainly wouldn't name a company Global Con & go around asking for money. I'm not claiming wrong doing of any sort, sure sounds bad

While the different agencies may be incompetent, it's a pretty big stretch to say the UN has an agenda to suppress the poor.

Were you to say the UN agenda is self perpetuation, preserving their budget, Helping their "friends" & other sorts of traditional business practices.

I would agree

I don't think there is any malice.

none of the agencies involved have any motivation to innovate

we are just barely a minor irritant, were we to have significant backing from either the general public or the politicians who control the purse strings, what is the chance of a shift in official policy

How do you expect to influence policy when you are poking them [the policy makers] with a big sharp stick semi publicly, here on CR4.

while I may not agree with your methods

Thank you for your hard work
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#1641
In reply to #1638

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 3:17 PM

I'll keep that in mind. Still I can't help but go off topic myself now and then. I had figured that in LA, at least there would be better chances for the Haitians with language close enough. As well I had figured that due to some commonality of experience as far as Katrina and the earthquake Louisiana might be a bit more sympathetic towards Haitians that need not only help in their nation, but also need a place to go.

Shared culture also figured as a factor in my theory.

Further I figured that both Louisiana and Haiti shared similar architectural needs for which shipping container conversions were well suited in both places. Long ago now I postulated that shipping container conversions as an industry might well become an export item for Haitians as they developed skill at it. Either they haven't got many natural resources, or the ones they do have aren't under their control. At the risk of repetition I was thinking of what work the labor force as is was suited for in two states with the materials at hand in both places, with similar needs.

Far as Eminent Domain is concerned in Haiti, also a repetition of prior writings, I had suggested that there would be less resistance to needed relocations there if those whose land was suitable for the relocation, were given urban Port-au-Prince land not sensible to focus on clearing within the time frames pushed by known weather events.

I was up for a position locally on an Airport Authority which would have had the power of Eminent Domain. And sure enough I will say that if I had gotten the seat, I was willing to use the power if I absolutely had to. However I did take the time to think of ways here where I live, to avoid applying that power. For me it has not been an idle or academic issue at all. It was well known locally and even at the State level that I was well suited for this particular position. CR4 isn't the only place I cause trouble. The Airport Authority was squashed. There still is a little airport. The University still gets to use it as a Private Airport, instead of as a shared asset for all of the County citizens. It's a unique story of power unknown in any other State of the Union. Considering my theories and all, it has been extremely ironic to have ended up living in a place so opposed to having any airport at all of their own.

I even hear on the radio some guy in an outlying area of Haiti speak of how his business was truncated by the lack of a local airport, and noted that even in Port-au-Prince they had taken to landing planes on roads. Port-au-Prince is a port, and it will be damned hard to move people away from it since no matter what, there will be work there, simply because it is a port.

We push on. What other than tourism and imports of aid, are the ports, either by the sea, or by air, good for?

P.S. I took Spanish French and German in High School. I was only able to pass German.

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#1632
In reply to #1626

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 11:27 AM

Much more historically accurate than my version of the story...By the way, my own impression of French is that it is totally intelligible to anyone outside the particular region where it is spoken. All Frenchmen sound as if they are talking with a mouthful of mush. They don't know how to spell, throwing in a lot of letters you aren't supposed to pronounce, while leaving out a lot of secret letters that you have to know from memory have to be inserted. German is a far more elegant language, but in northern Germany they have the same problem of talking through a mouthful of mush...Now, for romance, give me Spanish any day. For those in the know, Spanish is the most romantic language spoken on the planet today...
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#1615
In reply to #1613

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/02/2010 11:40 PM

Louisiana ne parle pas Francais? Thought I saw this in this thread. Nedlloyd has also plenty containers.

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#1617
In reply to #1613

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 12:15 AM

Maybe of any use? Regards

The top five ocean container carriers in terms of the number of TEUs deployed are:

Maersk Sealand

P&O Nedlloyd

Evergreen Group

Hanjin/Senator

Mediterranean Shipping Co.

Maersk is by far the largest container service operator, with approximately 700,000 TEUs deployed in 2001.

The second largest operator, P&ONedloyd deployed approximately 380,000 TEUs.

The top five container leasing companies in terms of fleet holding are:

Transamerica Leasing

GESeaCo

Textainer Group

Triton Container International

Interpool Group.

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#1619
In reply to #1613

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 1:31 AM

Who is TAW?

I am not for the use of eminent domain except in the most extreme cases. I tried to make clear over and over that there was, and will be other options, like land swaps.

While it is true I am a Godwin Anarchist, that doesn't mean I am for stealing. Eminent Domain by the Haitian government is suspect from where I sit. It's even suspect in the US as an abrogation of property rights.

When I heard Sean Penn was all for it I tried to impress on the worldwide community that it would be better to swap urban rubble strewn land for the land they want for the displaced, than just take it.

If you want ships you can go to the Hong Kong harbor and get them. Ky gave me a hard time, and I told him where to go to get ships like the Indian ship breakers do legally under Maritime Law.

What questions do Garfield and Larry have for me? Why should I answer? Global con pays them. Nobody is paying me for anything. Still I'm not stealing yet. Why these people you are intent on building prisons out of shipping containers for haven't started stealing them is really beyond me. If I was able to speak French or Creole I'd be more dangerous down there far as I can tell, from where I am. Haiti is an overpopulated uneducated island with a trapped population, and no agricultural base of exports of any value. It can't even compete making shirts or dresses due to competition from China and Indonesia.

As a tourist destination its unsafe if you are off the ship in its major port due to the kidnapping industry. It has a history of attacking its neighbor on the island and most of their border work is keeping them out since they burn down all the trees.

Sometimes they hack the Haitians up with machetes in the thousands in the night. The water table is half poisoned and people die early from high blood pressure brought on by too much salt.

I'd about recommend we go to Hong Kong and take over every abandoned ship and give it to them as escape vessels as about the best I could do.

I do come from sailors and priests, and the Irish who were starved on purpose by the English. Ain't that long ago.

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#1625
In reply to #1619

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 4:43 AM

I don't think anybody 'wants' to build prisons.. certainly not me... It only came up in a certain context, that in the future, when shelter, food, water, etc are taken care of, that walled prisons could be built. Certainly there is a segment of the container mod industry that already is quite advanced in this area, and lots of countries already use containers as overflow cells, just like schools use portables for extra classrooms.

... back to the old adage, there is nothing in this world that is either good or bad, but the purposes that a human puts things to, makes them so.

I don't think that humans or races are by nature bad or criminal. I think that the disadvantaged will always resort to desperate measures. Would I be so different born into poverty or slavery? This quake is a new beginning. If the prisons fell down as an act of god, then let any unrepentant criminals earn their way back to prison by their actions, otherwise, accept the act of god in setting them free.

The biggest legacy of investment to Haiti will be in what we teach them by our actions, and the learning materials donated to them.

Eminent Domain stretches back through the entire history of humanity, and has nevery really gone away anywhere, not even in America.

Chris
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#1631
In reply to #1625

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

04/03/2010 11:21 AM

Unfortunately, it would appear that the biggest legacy current efforts by the UN, the USAID, and other "official" NGO's is going to be new lessons in corruption and how to squander large sums of money accomplishing nothing...In spite of this, you still earn a GA from me...
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#1464
In reply to #1460
 Find in discussion

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

03/23/2010 10:45 AM

Hi gcare2000,

Welcome to CR4!!

do you have any photos? or is this still in the planning stages?

cheers,

Chris
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#1497
In reply to #1464

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

03/23/2010 10:38 PM

No Photos yet Chris. Still working in the planning stages to produce some photo realistic renderings of various program building type plan and 3D.

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#1485
In reply to #1460
 Find in discussion

Re: Shipping Container Housing - Haiti - GlobalCon Holdings Sustainable Disaster

03/23/2010 4:51 PM

Hi gcare2008,

Welcome glad you could lif these from the PP...glad Chrisg288 and you were able to get together OK.

Looks good and see the roofs show up the right way

Geoff Daly NH

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#1232
In reply to #1212
 Find in discussion

Re: Shipping Container Housing - China International Container Leasing

03/06/2010 8:09 AM

There has been talk of putting open top containers on their side.

Not sure this is structurally a good idea.

Containers are designed with most of the strength at the corners for predominantly vertical loads.

Place them on their side and the load is now being applied in the weakest plane.

You'd need to do a structural check before going ahead.

Better to use them in their intended orientation.
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#1233
In reply to #1232

Re: Shipping Container Housing - China International Container Leasing

03/06/2010 10:18 AM

No, not a very good idea at all about placing the Containers on their sides, if topless. Sceptic is very correct that the boxes are on their weak side/axis.

You don't even need to do a structural analysis to even know this.....basically a rule of thumb seat of the pant engineering approach. Could waste my time doing a FEA structural analysis of this condition and loading...in the end what does it really prove?

****TAKING OUT MY 20MM ELECTRICALLY-DRIVEN MINI-GUN AND SHOOTING THAT BRAINIAC IDEA FULL OF HOLES @ 6,000 ROUNDS PER MINUTE........**** MMMMMMMMM, NOTHING LIKE THE SOUND OF FREEDOM AND THE SMELL OF CORDITE IN THE MORNING, EH???!!!!!****

"CAPTMOOSIE'S CARDINAL RULE #1: SHOOT FIRST, AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER....IF POSSIBLE...." LOL

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#1234
In reply to #1233

Re: Shipping Container Housing - China International Container Leasing

03/06/2010 10:25 AM

Capt-

Please, PLEASE let me do an FEA on this issue! Sure, it won't give us any information we don't already have, but FEA is FUN!!! Please, can I do one? I prefer FEA to shooting...based on my own personal history
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#1236
In reply to #1234

Re: Shipping Container Housing - China International Container Leasing

03/06/2010 10:58 AM

Charlie,

remember containers were designed to go on trucks and were WIDTH restricted and then Height restricted...containers can be 8 ft or 9 ft inside, dependent whether the go on high or load loader-trailers.

All corner blocks are exactly the same size and DIMENSIONS this includes both the vertical and cross beams and longtitudinal beams structures. In open top containers it is only the corrugated sheet which is removed and one or two internal small cross struts. They then place hoops over (around 2 feet apart) and canvas or tarp if too high. It is only where the end door is that there is a removable/swing out bar section of the same dims as a closed unit....plenty strong when in place and doors closed for transport...remember we will be staionary 99% of time except for a tremor/quake.

So overall strength is ISO compliant. See my posting above to Sceptic's.

I believe if you vist the ISBU website there is some FEA stuff there...then you could feed in and play the what if scenario.

Geoff Daly NH

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#1237
In reply to #1234

Re: Shipping Container Housing - China International Container Leasing

03/06/2010 12:43 PM

Charlie, please be my guest at the FEA!!! yayyyyhooooo!

Yeah, doing them is very fun!!!!!!!!

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#1240
In reply to #1237

Re: Shipping Container Housing - China International Container Leasing

03/08/2010 6:59 AM

Showing my age here.

When I went to uni, they mentioned finite difference analysis, but the computing requirements were too great to justify it.

Finite element wasn't even mentioned!

We still used the third or fourth electronic computer ever made (Siliac - used valves!), although it was being phased out by then.

Amazing how things have changed.
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#1241
In reply to #1240

Re: Shipping Container Housing - China International Container Leasing

03/08/2010 11:38 AM

When I first started using FEA, we would punch a deck of cards (I guess you remember IBM cards), and then feed them in to a reader to transmit over the telephone lines to a super computer half way across the state. By the late '80's, there was an outfit Algor that was putting out a fantastic product at $3500, if memory serves- about the same price as the PC needed to run it. The package I am using today, much more powerful, running on a computer that I bought used for $400 (plus a couple hundred more for upgrades/repairs over the years), cost nothing (CAELinux). The times, they are a'changin'...
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#1242
In reply to #1241

Re: Shipping Container Housing - China International Container Leasing

03/08/2010 1:55 PM

ya well, when I first started with FEA, our computer models were flint-knapped.

but I do remember getting a demo of Algor in '90...
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#1482
In reply to #1233

Re: Shipping Container Housing - China International Container Leasing

03/23/2010 2:41 PM

Hi Capt,

You are a wealth of info and much appreciated by all.

On the question of laying open top cans on the sides, if taken at face value the concept is certainly flawed but when utilizing supporting members; **post in side or exterior truss supports the design integrity is not compromised.

** Exterior truss support could provide structure support of catchment systems too...

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#1486
In reply to #1482

Re: Shipping Container Housing - China International Container Leasing

03/23/2010 4:59 PM

Hey bwire,

I'm not entirely comfortable of laying an open-top container on its side due to a lack of structural rigidity and continuity. If you do use them that way, then you will have to reinforce the top open section with either a classic steel truss system or a Vierendeel Truss that has square or rectangular openings. Problems of utilizing the latter truss is that it's an indeterminate truss and you'll need to run a FEA on the structure. Also, it will take lots of additional steel to form that type of reinforcement plus mucho weldments by a qualified welder. If there is a lack of a good FEA program, you can always do the intensive calculations the old fashion way (long hand with a nice HP-41CV programmable calculator)!!! **LOL**

Frankly, it would mostly be best to use a wholly intact container and just cut in a narrow door and dimensionally small round windows.

Trans---- You could still make up a batch of the Thermite for cutting holes, but the edges will be ragged and need a lot of grinding.

I wouldn't be placing it into chalk tubes because it'd be a sticky mess to content with when warm. Also, it tends to lose potency sitting inside a tube after a few months. Additionally, it's viscosity is not like play dough or most chalks, It's more like an uncured rubber or something similar , and if placed into a chalking tube you're going to need the strength of a Sasquatch to push it out!

On other notes:

I want to apologize to all of you for my recent outbursts in my post aimed at the Two "Guests" this morning. It won't happen again; I promise you that.

Sincerely,

CaptMoosie

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#1487
In reply to #1486

Re: Shipping Container Housing - China International Container Leasing

03/23/2010 5:30 PM

Daggone, now things will be dull and I'll be required to cause a ruckus now and then, just to keep things entertaining.

Oh well.

Great women as beauties, have some flaw you know. Like their mouth is too wide, or their butt too big, or their eyes a bit too far apart.

Thermite glued to the sides of a container, and then set alight might make some really artistic Dali sorts of windows.

Otherwise I bet some guy at Dupont, has something like what I was looking for.

If they don't they ought to.

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#1499
In reply to #1486

Re: Shipping Container Housing - China International Container Leasing

03/23/2010 10:52 PM

CaptMoosie,

Yes, an open topped container in a normal regular design is not that strong, but the true open top ones have a slightly stronger top rim plus a series of hoop ring drop-ins for placing the canvas hoop supports into. They are actually quite strong and really do not move too much...yes the door section has a removable pinned swing section so you can run large equipment in and are normally steel floored.

So when you lay over and the swing section is secured...you just then place two side by side and weld along the exterior and interior joints and maybe a lolly column in the middle for added security if someone uses the now roof for a garden or something else. Have actually done this at a base in Greenland using 40 footers...Thule. (had to spray the outside with expanding poly foam to insulate...was jacked up a little so the sappers could weld then apply the foam...is all buried with snow after awhile..was quite cozy.)

venting via side double loop past the heating chimney loop to prewarm the air....we ended up wirh 6 double units set up in a pattern like a cross and tee. We used the door sections for thru for connections. The old Nissen huts were nxt door to these amd tied down as they were wooden and taller.

As far as CW doing a CFD for lift capability of a container, run the Bernoulie theorem for aero-dynamic airfoil lift numbers.....could also be wind angle dependent and velocity differintials causing negaitve areas around the container to occur..thus movement can occur, even lift(remember an empty container, 20 footer is around 4,000 lbs and 125 mph wind can exert quite a force-pressure over the sides/surfaces).

Yes needs some more real work..but we did do the tie down calcs using sunken stays (wheel hubs welded and buried about 8+feet down and compressed fill).

Lets keep trying out our ideas and coming up with other ideas. Stu, should be OK if tied down properly

Geoff Daly NH

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#1517
In reply to #1486

Re: Shipping Container Housing - China International Container Leasing

03/24/2010 9:29 AM

I've used some of the open top type and they had removeable cross braces designed that have been used to shore up the openings when some people have made them into double wides.

I wouldn't completely close the door on this concept, if the result were they're not suitable for continuous occupancy but maybe for storage or meeting rooms etc..

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#1528
In reply to #1517

Re: Shipping Container Housing - China International Container Leasing

03/24/2010 8:21 PM

bwire,

agree, we actually left one set of doors in place cut a hole for a window in top section ....on the other side, took both off and welded one on one side and fitted a regular door with window above, worked well.

In Haiti could do same but leave space where we put door for ventilation and place the other one inside and on a slider to shut for security when needed.

I am sure if shown how to do, the Haitian's will come up with away to make a slider etc.

Geoff Daly NH

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#1235
In reply to #1232

Re: Shipping Container Housing - China International Container Leasing

03/06/2010 10:39 AM

Sceptic,

You are correct if the std door swing bar is not replaced,(remember the other end is fixedand cannot be opened...yes there are some closed containers with dual opening, but not open top...designed for odd sized equipment that needs cranning in) then this section looses its integrity.....all containers are designed around the end/corner structures with the end beams designed for stress loads so they can be stacked and pinned and the side rails are also from end to end.

So by laying on there sides and putting the swing bar(s) securely in place( read weld pins) you have the same strength...then just interlock with the fixing pins and weld a plate to close up any gap.....you can in fact just use one and weld a gusset in pllce to support the other section and don't reduce the opening by the suport thickness if needed.

The ISO code also requires a roll over test on any container whether open, closed or the Bulk Tanker types you see mounted in the basic frame structures carrying liquids etc.

So if done correctly will be OK.

Geoff Daly NH

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#1512
In reply to #1232

Re: Shipping Container Housing - China International Container Leasing

03/24/2010 2:33 AM

Structural the container will be good on each side, (we brought big trees in it, sticking out the top) -but putting it on the side creates the need of a extra floor, since the side of a box container has deep ribs - NOT OPPORTUNE for floor. A double floor can house rodents. Maybe here is your place for a long flat tank for water? High ceilings are also more comfortable! Our heat sensors work from the head.

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#1209

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/04/2010 7:03 PM

It is reported that the CIA doesn't think enough is happening in Haiti to warrant having an agent there.

Don't know about the other Military Intelligence Agencies.

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#1238
In reply to #1209

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/06/2010 10:55 PM

Smoke, smoke, smoke.... ...... ......

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#1260

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/12/2010 4:36 PM

Evidence of the importance of documents and legal stuff is that now workers are attempting to find paper records at Direction Generale des Impots, (National Tax Office).

More evidence of this is that those who are old and surviving are being asked who lived where, and whom owned what.

Some of my information comes from Twitter links, and other information comes from the UN Foundation reports.

If you call or write people on the issue of Haiti, and are asked for a name to use as identifying what organization you represent, I will allow you to say you are from Transcendia.

I got into it yesterday with some girl at a Washington DC office about my status, or standing.

Think I said something to the effect that she was being a snotty gatekeeper, and I didn't have to put up with it.

I think I was getting hot since I do feel that the Greeks had some respect for the individual as just as important as the state, or any organization.

Those of us who have struggled with this emergency in Haiti and attempted this time to influence events on a world stage are not allowed to use the CR4 name.

Really it is a disadvantage to not be able to say we are an organization.

I do feel that with a name, and a bank account we could get some good things done.

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#1261
In reply to #1260

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/12/2010 7:03 PM

Dear Russell,

We are friends, but we sometimes disagree. That is fair. I see your strong effort to deliver aid, and I commend you for the spirit of your enterprising nature. You suffer however from communications issues, based solely on what I read and have shared with you. Your country and other efforts would be aided by studying some of the ideas that I have been taught. I had a former girlfriend who is director of communications for government agencies. (I have also taken other language and writing courses)

No matter who we are, or what organization we might represent, when we are dealing with other people, we are inside the realm of "Communications", as a scientific or sociological field of study. Communications covers all aspects of human interaction and exchange of information. Organizations employ communications experts to ensure that their marketing and other information is presented to the public in the best manner. They are often called "spin doctors", but that is an insult to the brilliant work they do. Any technology can be abused. This one is no different.

There are certain fundamental principles that are practiced in Communications, and should not be violated. When communications go south, it is typically because one of the fundamental principles has been violated. Communications is the first discipline to prove the genius of the golden rule, imho. If one spends any time at all thinking about what it feels like to be subjected to poor communications, then improvement in the quality and effectiveness of communication is rapid. As an author, you should know the importance of considering the audience.

When representing one's own country or organization, it is important to be respectful at all times, no matter what... why? because you want to be respected. It is important to write down and think about the audience of your important communications and how they will receive it. Honesty, integrity, respect, professionalism, and solid consistent presentation of message are the keys to successful communication.

so I suggest that you (and anyone) spend a little more time planning anything you do that represents this effort, lest we all get painted by the same brush that replies to your comments about 'snotty'. The first thing that we can do to help ourselves is to commit to a longer process, yet me Must retain our own integrity... and not be drawn off balance by frustration or anger, however justified it might be.

I respect you as a person, and your ideas and energy. Your activism is a gift that I don't have, and I respect that. I'm speaking to you as I would want someone to speak to me. As you have presented your exchanges publicly on here, I will comment publicly on that. I am critiquing communications and suggesting that needs improvement. I'm no expert and no one is perfect, especially not me. I'm simply telling you what I think.

Cheers,

Chris

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#1263
In reply to #1261

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/12/2010 7:56 PM

I do run some edges, and have a plug-in for a phone call different from what I might say in writing, or in person.

Rude to me, and I may well be definite back.

Somebody years back tried to tell me we had a misunderstanding.

"No." I said. "We have a conflict."

Some people I deal with simply want to tell me to call somebody else, or write somebody else, and now and then I will, and other times I say to them, I called You, not out of ignorance, but because you are the ones supposed to listen.

I have literally been nice as hell to everybody on run arounds that ended up where I was supposed to at the end of the run around call the person I called in the first place.

In the case of Haiti, people have died, and will die on a daily basis, and will die en- masse again when the storms come.

Who did you call today?

Yesterday I called offices for a Congressman, and two US Senators.

Some of it was unpleasant, but hey, dying ain't fun either.

My wife has a degree in Communications.

Typically she says that while I am sometimes rough, it's called for.

I can be very sweet.

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#1264
In reply to #1263

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/12/2010 8:13 PM

"I can be very sweet."

I don't doubt that for a moment. I said as much. I appreciate your spirit. Please take what I said in the manner I intended. I'm not trying to be rude to you. I'm presenting you with what I see. I know it might come off as picky. The only thing worse is to have a fracturing of the team effort we have going, and to me, it requires simple honesty between members; which is what I have been with you. just honest.

I called no one. I'm not good at it. I do have my strengths, but organizing isn't necessariliy one of them. its like pulling teeth. It isn't really what I bring to the table, or offer. You do have a strong organizing aptitude. I see it.

As for people dying, I'm fully aware of that. In my opinion, that is not sufficient reason to venture to the dark side of the force. We have a mission of positive intent. We have a reasonable expectation that we will not taint that goodness with anger and darkness. We must stay the course. We must keep our integrity and our vision. When the movement comes to manifest the destiny of this vision, we must be prepared. not burnt out. The things that we can do best are to clarify our vision, refine our purpose, and communicate effectively.

Respectfully,

Chris
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#1265
In reply to #1264

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/12/2010 9:10 PM

In short:

A hand out stretched is better than a fist behind the back.

Not being able to see the body language of a person can create misconceptions. So when communicating in the written word one has to be very critical about the possibilities of interpretation. Only undiluted honesty will get anyone anywhere.

Noticing a fluke or tiny error in a system and not correcting it is like beating due diligence with a big club and pretending all is good. I have learned over the years that just a tiny error in communication can have consequences further down the line that can blow a good relationship out of the water.

That is the same with an electronic or mechanical system etc. If one replaces honest scrutiny (quality) with self serving proclamations, one is on the wrong track and unnecessary sacrifices will be incurred later on down the track. Simple maintenance of all parts is required including ones skills in communicating.

If Russel feels that he can get away with it and not listen to very constructive advice, he will, at some stage, recognize how well your comments were meant and how much time he has wasted trying to "save face". This I write out of great respect for his sometimes very inspiring comments. The fine tuning of any person takes a lot of work and with out real friends it is much harder to jump ones shadow.

A Squirrel will always stay just that, even if you color it blue and give it a nice sprinkling of pink polka dots. Always using a Tiger in this context is a bit boring but I think you know what I mean.

All the best, Ky.

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#1269
In reply to #1265

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/12/2010 11:25 PM

I've given you some numbers to call.

The phone call is the new In Person.

Try it.

As far as squirrels and tigers and polka dots I am confused.

Last time I was at a knife fight, I had a gun.

Might not have saved face, but worked for me.

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#1266
In reply to #1264

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/12/2010 10:16 PM

Then okay Chris, leave phone calls and really sharp arguments to me and Geoff.

Let Captain Moose and me and Grarthh and Geoff actually speak with some of these people.

Give out one phone call to somebody at the UN, or US Congress, or to any other of these organizations and see if you don't have in the aftermath a desire to slap somebody.

Really Chris, get on the phone and call a Canadian with a little power.

Hell if I had my druthers I'd sic CL on 'em.

He's sure not shy about saying somebody has broken the rules.

P.S. and while it is true I told one functionary off, it is also true I had another long conversation with someone else.(Beau Mills) -he and you would likely get along, though as time passes more will die.

Of movie scenes that may illustrate a way I might react, I recommend you watch The Aviator. There is a scene where a Senator asks that Mr. Hughes tell someone in his employ to show up and continue to testify. Mr. Hughes says. "No."

Here are some numbers to call with polite communications as people die. See if you can get something good to happen. Try Beau Mills at 919-859-5999. He knows who I am.

Try Merorores at 212-370-4840 Haiti Mission to the UN.

Try Unicef at 1-800-486-4233

Try Countryman & McDaniel at 310-342-6500

Try Christian Lopez of Latino Housing Development at 716-881-7051

Try 212-963-1234 and see who you get and what they want you to do. It's the number for the UN.

Try 509-229-800 and ask for Kenneth H/Merten. He's one I aint got to bothering yet. See if he knows Raymond Joseph at 202-332-4070. (check number.) For USAID try 202-712-4007, ask for Mike.

Try 202-271-4416. Bette Cook. List is not in order. Mr. Lopez is attempting to get shipping container housing to Haiti, and deserves support. Countryman and McDaniels have information and contacts we need. We do need the UN to act right, but making that happen will be tough. USAID has already told us to go to hell, and all US Government agencys seem to turn back to them.

I do think our hammering there has done some good.

I do also encourage those of you who are better at communications and more tactful than I am to call the numbers I have listed here.

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#1267
In reply to #1266

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/12/2010 10:53 PM

Thanks for all your hard work & the list

your post is a good answer if any of them are on this thread
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#1270
In reply to #1267

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/13/2010 12:09 AM

You know guys, no 'outside body' or person, can make any sense out of this thread/threads. Very few of us can even decipher what is the Haiti workable plan, imagine how it embodies, or gets done.

It certainly is in there, has been for some time, but is buried within a mass of asides and explorations, not to mention off topic and 'other'.

I have patiently waited for 'consensus' on "the Product We are Presenting" and even moved covertly to encourage development of a model that 'outsiders' can see and grasp.

Chris, Charlie, Geoff, Garth; I suggest; Trans would do much better "backed up" with the tools to do it right, rather than dialogue on the predictable frustration upwelling, due to not having them.

Kyzine
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#1271
In reply to #1270

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/13/2010 1:37 AM

Agreed. So here is a rough plan for a tool. A pamphlet that I can provide to everyone as a pdf. that way, when you all come up with email addresses for the people you talk to, you can send them the pdf. Conversely, Transcendian (Russell) can post a downloadable version on his web site.

This is a preliminary simplistic design. Please pm me with your suggestions for design and communications improvements. I am open minded about this.

PAGE 1 (double sided 8.5 x 11 - triple fold pamphlet)

PAGE 2

Chris.

Also, don't forget, the Water Bottle plan could also be an effective communications plan. Deliver it directly to the people and bypass all the political crap. When the people see such solutions are possible, they will begin to ask about it, and eventually insist upon it.
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#1272
In reply to #1271

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/13/2010 2:24 AM

That's pretty brilliant. The only thing I would change is the segue from "People need shelter"/"People need shelter now" to "People need shelter"/"NOW". (With the "Now" in a larger font.)

A boatload of water bottles with this label might jumpstart things way better than the feckless government efforts. FEMA redux?

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#1273
In reply to #1272

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/13/2010 2:28 AM

For a slightly different effect, you could misspell "feckless"....
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#1274
In reply to #1273

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/13/2010 4:05 AM

Well done Chris - good thought Tornado - off topic Guest, annoyingly so.

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#1275
In reply to #1271

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/13/2010 11:07 AM

I like it!

Far as tools to work with, well, CW and Garth and Chris did put together what we called a draft White Paper that has been useful.

Actually as well I'm all for this place to be somewhat confusing to outsiders.

It is our meeting room after all.

And you'd be surprised how little people are interested in discussions where there is no conflict. Well, maybe not...

I remember years ago when I would tune in the shortwave and finally find some Hams talking amongst themselves.

We have done something similar in that often Ham radio operators have just messed around talking about what kind of radio they have till there was an emergency.

Years ago now I suggested a tag line for CR4 tee shirt and mugs: Everything I wanted from SW, but never got.

Back when I lived in Rochester us poets would get together read our poems, play music and argue about art and life.

Was fun really.

At any rate the poster is excellent and if we hadn't been arguing amongst ourselves it likely would not have been produced.

This is why as far as this long and confusing thread I sometimes post in the long and confusing thread, instead of the more focused threads.

All Righty then! Got a poster! Wow, I see it up in Washington! I see it up at the UN, in NYC!

Meantime since we sort of have some shelter plans, well, I'm moving on to the evacuation. My study so far indicates that no matter what we or anybody else does the lifeboat that is Haiti, is overloaded.

The pictures I see show them still cooking with charcoal. Before the earthquake they couldn't grow enough food for themselves. When will it be possible for them to be self sufficient? With the best of agricultural practices how many can be supported there with what they have?

P.S. We can't use the poster with any mention of Globalspec.com, or CR4 unless Globalspec management, marketing and CR4 administrators approve.

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#1277
In reply to #1275

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/13/2010 12:16 PM

We don't need the affiliation of cr4, the message is the key, our benevolent overlords are welcome to run the joint as they see fit, it is enough that they provide us a work/play space.

There's no way for cr4 or GS to make money on this particular bit, nor would it make sense for GS to devote scarce manhours to this project. The admin has made it clear on more than one occasion to me & others their wish to be no more than a meeting place.

I for one am grateful to have it.....

Thanks to Chrisg288 for the pamphlet a fine one it is!

I put in my order
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#1278
In reply to #1277

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/13/2010 12:34 PM

another GA for Chris!

Geoff is correct, add some bold Text where needed. Maybe an underline or two?

I suggest adding the word "hurricanes" in the green area too. Make bold and underline the words Earthquakes, hurricanes and shelter for starters........

I couldn't read the text on page 2.....I tried to magnify it and all I got was blurred text.....bummer!

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#1280
In reply to #1275

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/13/2010 3:35 PM

ga russell.. but this one is a pamphlet not a poster.. but i can do a poster if needed.

As for Evac, the first thing to do is find a place for them to go.

If need be, you could make a giant floating raft of containers, filled with air bladders as I proposed for the 'dock'. find a reasonable way to handle the interstitial flexing (rubber tires?)

but you have to go somewhere.. or die of dehydration, starvation and exposure.

I know that you have proposed Louisiana and Quebec. (quebec is cold eh!)

I believe there are also french speaking places in North Africa, Northern South America, France, Manitoba and New Brunswick.

I'm sure there are hurdles with countries accepting immigrants. (fear of crime being one) We might have better luck proposing temporary relocations for say 3 years, while Haiti is rebuilt. (say Louisiana for a million, Cananda for those able to live in the cold.) Workers from these camps could be alternately rotated through work terms on the island rebuilding infrastructure and learning trades.

Chris
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#1281
In reply to #1280

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/13/2010 4:19 PM

No one of my Irish heritage that fled Ireland due to the Potato Famine has returned to Ireland.

This does influence my thinking.

It is nice to have someone around that gets about as grandiose as it gets, for a floating world of shipping container haiti raft world people is right ambitious. Of course it is true that for many many years Haitians have put to sea. The Irish emigration to the US and Nova Scotia was both tragedy, and a salvation.

In consideration of these things, I have made sure to focus on the greatest governmental failure that it is proper to lay at the doorstep of the Haitians themselves.

That failure is that they did not put money into their educational system.

Most people in Haiti speak Creole. The reports I've read say really only 10 percent speak French.

Gallic is not much used anymore.

Oh no, must I move to the seashore?

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#1295
In reply to #1280

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 2:43 PM

Works as a poster too, at least the first panel.

-Chris G note. Heroic Graphics are powerful, maybe stick some heroic builders in the poster, or later editions.

Poster Art has a long heritage of great influence in the mental landscape.

Otherwise, since CL's note of yesterday, We've got budget, and design, and authority issues to pull together.

BUDGET AND PLAN LETTER:3/14/10

Typically everything costs more, and takes more time than you think it will, or want it to, especially the first time.

My one conception of focus is the Community Center, for lack of a better name.

First is the foundation, the place to put an assemblage. Two issues there, property rights, and site prep.

(Functionally the building assemblage is to be a Food Distro, and Market, Clinic, and School.)

Typically when building, you, or your company or organization simply buy the property where you are going to build. In this case we need to know whom we might buy from, and what the price is to be realistically.

We have an opportunity to create appropriate paperwork to be applied on into the future. I'm allowing 50 thousand for Legal work, and securing the site, with some consideration of necessary insurance typically required of real organizations.

Hopefully that would be enough and plenty to create a place for one compound, and the anchoring, which is a function of the foundation.

Then we have the costs of the raw materials, Shipping Containers and associated things such as bathrooms water and power. The containers themselves are reported to cost 1,000, to 2,000 normally. So there we are looking at only 6 thousand or so for 3 40 footers.

Modified I've seen figures in the 100 thousand dollar range. Then again Chris Gs brother built one for 16 thousand dollars Canadian, I assume. Say we figure on 20 to 25 grand per Container Modified. That puts us at 125 thousand dollars.

Say we allow 3 thousand per container for transport. That's another 9 thousand.

That's 134 thousand.

Cutting torches of two types, at least one generator and other associated tools and a work truck, space at the port, could easily cost 30 grand putting us at 164 thousand.

20 percent of that is 32 thousand 8 hundred for a figure of 196.800.00.

This figure is really not fully realistic, for it does not really include any above the line labor for any management or long term administration. However if we could pull one workable compound off, we may well be able to garner ongoing support.

Frankly I feel seat of the pants that 250 thousand dollars is somehow likely needed to get up and running, and make at least one compound.

Will USAID buy our plan? Will the Haitian Government buy our plan? Will the UN buy our plan?

Will Sean Penn's organization buy it?

Who are We?

What relationship to Clemson U, do we really have?

Should we look it over, and say we have already pretty much done what we set out to do, which was to influence public policy, or keep going?

This post is prompted by the slim chance Globalspec might put up some money.

What would really be in it for Globalspec? Much of what they help to sell is infrastructure, tools and devices for factories and municipalities. Does building a Community Center Compound in Haiti fit in with their mission?

If they lend their name to the project, they may be able to supply corporate infrastructure of legal and insurance issues that would reduce cash outlays, and there may be tax incentives that help to justify any support they do provide.

Some of these things are known only to accountants and tax attorneys.

Who is for my plan? I'm looking for 7.

To summate my plan, it is to pull together a workable Community, Block Center Design, and install it in Port-au-Prince. My plan is to ask Globalspec if they will put some money towards it.

Frankly I'd ask about anybody to support my plan. Think I will.

I need 7, I tell you 7 supporters for my plan. Vote here and vote often!

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#1296
In reply to #1295

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 3:31 PM

Hey Russell,

I definitely think you are on the right track.. ga.

With my brother's unit, there was a bunch of stuff installed that just wouldn't be necessary to get this going..he built bunk beds, kitchen cupboards etc,wood stove.. and many features that just are Not required here. even the insulation and internal walls of plywood..not required.

I say, just for a family shelter protected from wind, rain, quake, and for storage of belongings, all they need is windows with storm shutters as discussed on theother thread, plus a convection chimney for cooling, plus stand-off tarps and water collection. (i've also thrown in a pressure washed cleaning)

so this is a different focus than what you have presented..and here is my spreadsheet for that. I've amortized the equipment and labour over 2000 units. (how else do you justify it?)

ps.. just use Ctrl + to zoom in if you can't read it. I'm happy to send anyone the sheet if they want to plug in different numbers. make suggestions at will..

lastly, if a larger building is going to be built, I'd like to propose the Hospital I made. I think that community centers get turned into hospitals anyway in emergency times.. but it will have all the same features, but be more easily 'marketable' and have a positive image that is strong in the psyche, if you follow me. of course I think for that it should be underground and waterproofed. anyway...

what I have put in the sheet is a single family shelter container, but I think that you could use that number and the amount of labour and materials it represents, plus the amortized equipment and personnel, and use it as a BASE number for simple structures. If you want to build a hospital or community center with 25 containers, simply multiply this number times 25.

Chris
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#1299
In reply to #1296

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 4:41 PM

I need to convince all that the order of building now calls for the Compound with the functions necessary for the Commons, the common interest first.

Hence I am pushing for the Shipping Container Food Center, School and Clinic Combo as itself a pivot and anchor for neighborhoods, and building of individual homes and condos either innovative, or traditional, second.

Modern Urban planners have long said that segregating building usages is inefficient, and large buildings in Urban areas are best working, living, and market spaces.

There are issues related to culture and human psychology that influence why typically buildings are rarely as multifunctional as is efficient.

This influences my Compound concept, for really if you understand human beings, well you must allow that they simply have needs and desires that will never ever fully make sense.

Building in a neighborhood, and building a neighborhood are subtly different.

I have had the fortune to have lived in the rural country, suburban environments, and very developed urban environments.

Port-au-Prince was and will likely long be a big city, and an urban port city.

If you study port cities you discover that they are made up of Neighborhoods. Chicago, Toronto, and New York City are the major cities I have lived and worked in.

Minor or medium sized towns I've lived and worked in are Fort Lauderdale Fl., and Greensboro, NC, and Rochester, New York. There are also some other places like Wilmington, NC, and now Carrboro, NC, that I have lived and worked in.

I think best of NYC as far as many things from water, to transportation, to the electric grid.

Even there though few buildings achieve the efficiency ideal, and this is why I lean towards the Compound, Community Center concepts for rebuilding, and Urban planning for Port-au-Prince.

My designs and suggestions always allow for the human factor, which does not necessarily make sense.

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#1300
In reply to #1299

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 5:18 PM

well... I mostly agree.. but I will press this point.. I think the first level is Shelter.. and certainly food center, school, and clinic can also provide emergency shelter.. so I'm just trying to be clear. as long as we can create something out of containers, I will be more content. anything we create out of containers can provide the much needed shelter.

as for compounds/neighborhoods etc... I'd like to know more about your compound concept. I'd like to see a sketch from you if you can.. (just paintbrush is fine. you know macs excel at graphics eh?)

Personally, after shelter, and medical, etc, I think that a marketplace is very important. Whatever we create sets the tone for the future. We want them to be independent and to create some wealth for themselves. A marketplace is a culture the fosters wealth oriented thinking. Making it achievable for the common person engages more of the population. As each person sees an opportunity to Sell, the will become more motivated to take action. They will become the change.. It was never government that made countries like the US and Canada great. It was the Entrepreneur. Everyone who works creates value and subsequently wealth. The Entrepreneur who provides the plan and leadership creates even more. Governments do not create wealth.

I'd send my worksheet, but you are on a mac, i'm on pc.

cheers,

Chris
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#1301
In reply to #1300

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 5:58 PM

The Compound addresses shelter needs for the most people fastest.

The Compound Concept, or Community Center Concept, or Block anchor concept may as well be same as the Fort.

People like a bit of private space. Seems like they actually need it.

They will retreat to the public spaces if under assault.

Some towns and cities still are named for the Fort.

I lived in Fort Lauderdale for instance.

For neighborhoods in Port-au-Prince I invision the Shipping Container Compounds as quick and sturdy strong holds to which the neighborhood could retreat for shelter, and otherwise use for as the Market, School and Clinic.[p]

Lets just lump vital bureaucratic offices in with the market.

The square or the rectangle is not perfectly efficient as is the circle and the spoke layout.[p]

Combining the two is perfect.

You either put the squares on the outside, or inside.

Public places like the Colisieum had the both. Squares for the streets then the elipse circle, that contained the rectangle show ground.

By the time Chicago was being built, it was known that the Grid pattern worked.
If I could draw a picture of a block and post it here now it would be a square with a spoked center and a courtyard.

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#1309
In reply to #1301

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 8:02 PM

Well first.. Haiti has its own ancient and iconic fort called the Citadel Laferrière

Secondly, grid-based compounds date back to ancient roman towns in britain and other places, and was highly successful back then.. millennia before chicago. really they date back 6000 years to ancient sumeria and other places with City States serving a local god.

I posted this one (walled viking village compound) before. you didn't say anything then to let us know you were thinking compounds?

I made this for Kyzine offline.. and he had many other suggestions.. I haven't followed through with that yet...

for interest sake, here is a wheel plan again.

"vital bureaucratic offices" eh.... now that's what I call an oxymoron...lol

I'll tell you, there is a huge difference between a effective leadership and 'vital bureaucracy'.

Chris
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#1302
In reply to #1300

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 6:01 PM

You should have introduced the community whiteboard over here

http://www.imaginationcubed.com/index.php
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#1304
In reply to #1302

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 6:56 PM

Link URL not found, is the message.

What's the upshot?

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#1305
In reply to #1304

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 7:29 PM

http://www.imaginationcubed.com/index.php

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#1307
In reply to #1305

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 7:48 PM

thanks KY

That's is it

A little bit involved to use you have to email yourself [or someone else] a link to your drawing

& then post the link here

this tool will let us work on common drawings

as always if you have trouble drop me a line & I'll give you a hand
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#1306
In reply to #1304

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 7:36 PM

Garthh... I dunno... that might seem... I ah...

http://cr4.globalspec.com/comment/522621/Re-Shipping-Container-Housing

Trans,

the upshot is that... a picture is worth a thousand words.

and apparently with this whiteboard you can make a picture and save it and have others view it by posting the link to your picture, or you can invite people to scribble in realtime.

Chris
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#1313
In reply to #1306

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 9:22 PM

oops, it was 500+ posts ago

I did use it on the installation & anchor sub thread, for my version of the 4plex layout

I remember it on the Modular car designs by DB Cooper thread

Good find CC [canadian Chris]
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#1303
In reply to #1300

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 6:16 PM

Macs RULE.

S.

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