Shipping Container Housing

The compound/neighborhood center makes a lot of sense, especially in Latin America (although there may be some discussion as to whether Haiti qualifies as "Latin" America)...

Trans-

I would suggest focusing on something like a hospital, school, orphanage, or some other sort of public facility that can do double duty as temporary emergency shelter- this might be an easier sell...Kinda like the sports arena in New Orleans...

Over the past decade I've had one major battle.

That was my battle over UNTV.

Failed.

Local to where I live, I had a major battle over how to run the Local Community Airport.

Failed.

Failure was not complete, but victory wasn't so great either.

Oh, well.

Market, Clinic School Block Complex.

Your concept of neigborhood block is fantastic, and sits smack in the middle of reality, with respect to what can work. My question is, how do you sell this to the powers that be?

You are dead on about the community functions should be addressed first (Market, Clinic, School)- housing will develop naturally (probably not to code, however). What is critical is that there is sufficient shelter in emergencies for the residents of the neighborhood- and some protection from those who weren't smart enough to band together in neighborhood communities before whatever future calamity strikes.

I like the wagon wheel concept, but I am concerned about how to combine this with a basic grid layout...

...if only we still had Pierre L'Enfant to work on it...

In the past when I sold my company, I'd drive my truck up to see the Production Manager, or Producer, and just show them what I had, give 'em a price for the deal, and they either hired me or they didn't.

There is and will be more than one buyer in Haiti, if not other places in the world.

I have looked at all I have had time for concerning Haiti, and do not think it possible to create sufficient shelter.

I am trying to wrap up the shelter issues with best I can see, but have been moving on to sensible evacuation, since I do not believe that we, or any other organization, or organizations can realistically provide shelter compounds sufficient to the needs, in time.

Hell, we'll be doing good if we raise the money and put one compound on the ground to show within two months.

Even if Chris is right, and 300 thousand bucks would put 2,000 containers in Haiti suitable for 200 thousand people, that doesn't work for the other 800 thousand squatting and living in squalor.

Millions are being spent. Millions will be spent.

When the Irish were being starved to death during both Potato Famines families pooled whatever they had, and would send the strongest males to the US to keep the name going.

We and the world community are sending food and water to Haiti, but the situation is unsustainable.

The English gave the Irish some hard kernel corn that was like having a rock to eat.

-didn't work out. Irish cooking skills were not great.

The population of Haiti is too large for its resources, and every flight or ship in with relief supplies ought to carry away people who simply will not have a chance regardless of shipping containers, quonset huts, tents, or holes in the ground.

Things there were horrible before the earthquake.

Anyway I really appreciate your agreement.

As far as the realities of sufficient shelter in emergencies, as a critical need, I can't see it being done there with what is there, or even imported.

Nobody much wanted the Irish either.

Probably 2 million starved during both Potato famines for a total of around 4 million starved to death, and maybe 3 million made it to the US and Nova Scotia, and I think the population of Ireland was halved, and is only recently at levels reached prior to the Famine times.

I'll have to check on those statistics. It has been awhile since I read The Great Hunger.

P.S.

I did try the drawing program and drew the spokes of the containers inside the block. Lived in a U shaped cinderblock apartment place in Lauderdale once. Was back off the beach and had been though a number of Hurricanes. Rode my bicycle to the airport to work. Was alright except for some of the neighbors who were crack addicts and there was a problem with the septic tanks. Sewage and thievery were a problem. I chose to evacuate the area.

It's a hard row to hoe but there are no lines and no waving hands to take on a few million illiterate peoples for any amount of time what could they do?

It's not something that we'd want to have happen but reality of it is many will weather the coming wet without suitable shelter and fend for themselves in the regard to a great extent possibly for several seasons.

Let's see if the towers were removed and the construction were containers the top could be a catchment.

Or something like this could be wrapped around or along a slope.

But I would prefer to leave the slopes to the birds and bees and build on the flatter areas.

I'm not certain the layout of this convent would support a small community Okay I'm done picking on Mexico City but it has interesting correlations.

Chris,

Excellent layout and composition with a little fine tuning of the print....maybe a couple of "high-lites" say in bold.

We should look to seeing if maybe Coke, Pepsi, Perrier, and any other company sending liquid drinks to Haiti or even to the US; market looks at this as a REAL way to bring the situation in Haiti to the forefront and they can also get market recognition...read feeds there marketing ego's.

Anyone see any possible changes/additions needed?

Great work Chris very innovative as a message board....maybe we can also get onto Facebook.....Trans do you know away to do this easily?...keep it simple in your reply.

Geoff Daly NH

Somehow I missed out on the moneymaking gene.

Simple thing to do would be just to pay a printer to print the poster.

Another option would be to go to Cafepress and get the Print on demand thing going, as it is efficient.

We might turn back to Clemson and see if the Student Activity Board would put up some money to have some posters printed and sent to our targets.

Back when I was in College, and Video Committee Chairman, we spent money on every thing from Singing Pigs, to speeches from Gene Roddenberry.

We might also try and get the poster put up on the UN website.

There are strictures in UN codicils that complicate simple things. Unaffiliated individuals are not allowed to speak there, for instance.

To overcome this I have invented a country, though since I do not have an army and my war is with asteroids, and bad weather, I have had problems with the UN.

more later

technical problems are getting worse from my shed. all access being chipped down. I may only be able to write on napkins soon. I have a few pencils. Firefox is failing for me. Long limits everywhere else.

Stuy asked me to post this article

I did the best I could with the quality

I agree, though I noted that those that left Port au Prince soon on, were reported to be returning. They may have needs not able to satisfy away from the port, where there is at least some work.

Thinking on the evacuation concept.

Wondering about the Vatican, and Sanctuary concepts.

Doesn't the Vatican have some money?

The Irish emigration was unique according to some of my reading in that it was the first time really poor people were actually arriving en mass. It was interesting that the water treatment machine given by Rahway went to Bon Repos? not Port au Prince. Gottah step out. Will read and write more later.

New building efforts should begin in the countryside areas. Comparatively the proposition of rebuilding on the rumble is prohibitive of both $$$ and time.

Spare little contemplating the any economic impact to the big city because it's gone already. The rural authorities are desperate for something/anything to improve their area conditions.

Yes the first picture with towers removed seems viable considering...

For those interested, I have an old and apparently no-longer-published freeware program called BlockCad which is a Lego building program.. I've found three blocks which I think are somewhat representatitive of 20,30,40 foot containers, and a few minutes of practice and button pushing will teach you all you need to know to build 3d structures in this app. If anyone is interested, pm me your email address and I'll zip it up and send it to you. Can't find any active downloads to link in here, so unless you want to download as torrent, this plan will have to do.

also it has a feature to turn off the round buttons.

Chris

Just checked with the Congressman's office again. Report is that USAID will typically respond to a Congressman's inquiries within 7 to 14 days.

BlockCAD is still available here.

Excellent find, Sue- Thank you.

When I, or we, first looked at these designs I thought they were too expensive.

Since I did post 1299, I have a better understanding of the costs.

I just wanted to buy 1000 dollar shipping containers, spend what it cost to get them placed and cut holes in 'em.

I stupidly figured it could be done for about 5 grand a container. But no.

This is simply impossible.

Why it is impossible is not entirely understandable considering what money is being spent on, and what money will be spent on, but it is apparently impossible.

Companies making Shipping Container Housing are Infratech, Inhabitat, Latino Housing, and others. Habitaflex makes some nice folding stuff that costs 69 grand.

I thought that was expensive for Haitians.

Habitaflex didn't have one of their lowest priced designs made and ready to go.

Of the companies I've followed up on Infratech seems most likely to be able to deliver.

They mostly seem to deliver to oil companies.

"victim"

Has JJ been talking there

My apologies: who is JJ?

Hello Guys and Gals,

Check out the slide show on MSN.com re Shipping container housing pics this morning!

http://realestate.msn.com/slideshow.aspx?cp-documentid=23625182&GT1=35000#6

ENJOY!!!!!

====CaptMoosie

This post shows a lot of brilliant thinking, but a container there is dangerously hot inside. Even unloading one in that area, drains off liters of liquids, to control your body temperature. The air is very humid and living in a container without AC IMPOSSIBLE and putting AC in there is WASTING ENERGY. These are no more than metal boxes to transport goods in it that can withstand these extremes. From extremely low in the North to extremely hot in the south. Living creatures can die in it and that cannot be the option? Second part is: check what they had before and what their expectations are and instead of providing something that will become definitely definitive, -the most simple houses there are a little bit better than carton-, let them participate in and orchestrate their future themselves, that takes a lot more than housing only. Forcing ideas into communities hasn't been the smartest move ever.

Chris, I appreciate your concern a lot. I am living between them for now 13 years. I know what I am talking about. Let them do the job and supply know how, tools, and materials. Everything else is waste for the country's development.

Dear dvmdsc,

Well you know I agree with you as I was one of the first to urge contact with Haitian people. That being said, this is what I have to contribute. I'm not forcing my design ideas on anyone, and I persist with my participation in this, in the belief that this vision of shelter will help those who want it. In the meantime, people are suffering, and anything we can do is helpful.

I have also stated elsewhere that it is important to try to make available the technology and know how so that the Haitians can make it their own. That way they can support these systems, no matter how this ends up.

It should be clear to all by now that the powers-that-be are almost intentionally trying to screw things up, and prevent a real system of solutions to help the Haitians. There is not many ways to explain or justify the lack of progress with intelligent aid delivery. It is obstruction in my opinion.

Chris

Chris,

excellent response to what has being going on since Jan 14th....yes Charlie has done an excellent job with his compendium of the threads.

With that said, remember the US Army and Marines use them in the battle field without HVAC, use pretty much what we have come up with....natural ventilation and draft tubes combined (have been used by many civilizations for cooling/venting for thousands of years...even using water sprays to cool air, which then drops the temp and causes a thermo-convection setup)...many of the units are not insulated and only have a camie cover over with a tarp to reduce heating effect.

As we speak USAID/FEMA and UN have admitted that they are short by nearly 120,000 tent homes being handed out after all this time...have 104,000 tarps in warehouses and 20,000+ tents SOMEWHERE?.....plus they are missing tons of other stuff.

USAID/FEMA have released contracts as "NO-BIDS" to a number of entities who have been convicted of Fraud, deception, falsifying records and some other infractions by the US courts....over $300 + MILLION given out. No wonder the Haitian Government are upset not knowing where all this aid/money is going/being spent etc.

Anyway lets keep pressing forward and coming together with more ideas and concepts.

Our postings are being looked at by a variety of interested parties and many are being taken seriously....they realize the CR4 comunity DOES consist of good qualified people from many disciplines.

So good work everyone.

Geoff Daly NH

dvmdsc-

Very valid points. But let us look at it this way. The purpose is to mitgate future loss of life and human suffering when the next catastrophe strikes, which is most likely going to be a hurricane. Today, there are no shelters, no large sports stadiums and such, where people can seek refuge during a major storm. A tent or tarp or cardboard nailed to a 1 x 1 wooden frame isn't going to last long in a major storm.

One need not think of these shelters, in their unmodified form, as places to live- actually, those of us fortunate to live in the tropics prefer to sleep outside anyway. One is unlikely to see too many people in Haiti trying to cook inside- a charcoal fire would quickly fill any structure with sufficient smoke such that any further activity would be precluded- including finishing cooking the meal. Think of these shelters as emergency shelters (at least initially), not as potential permanent homes.

These containers are structurally sound, and offer the best quick solution to the impending storm season, and they will most likely survive even the worst earthquake. Are they "livable"? Definitely not. Could they become the abode of choice with a bit of modification? I can not speak for the Haitians, but I suspect that once they recognize the safety factors, and figure out how to make them comfortable, there is a good chance they will be more attractive to them than currently available options- mostly depending on how much it costs to make a container livable (which may not be the same as what you consider livable). Up until now, this hasn't even been one of the options under consideration.

When one considers the options available in Haiti, there really aren't a lot. Of those that have been suggested and deemed viable, this one has the best chance of saving lives and reducing suffering. If someone can put a better, cheaper option on the table, I am sure all of us would be willing to lend support. But, so far, that hasn't happened.

Hi C Warner Most of the posts here are right to the point. I can send you pictures of Haitian housings where a container compared to it looks like palace. And far out the earth quake zone. I have seen numerous trailers and containers, even on the ground, just been toppled in hurricanes. Everyone builds the house he can afford. I have been raised with the wisdom of many sayings, there is probably an equivalent in English: emptiness is the pillow of the devil, which means work and you have a goal, a distraction and in the mean time you are productive. I pray that capt.Moose's statement for Haiti will become the center of converting Containers into house comes true. I have nothing against a few shiploads containers dropped there, but fill them with windows, doors, plywood and others needed supply. But let them do the work. I know families of 10, living in a shack of 16 x 16 or smaller, sleeping on everything flat enough. There is a workforce available and the hurricane season is still 3,5 months away. In the mean time tarps and tents can do miracles. Everything else is expected, but how far do you go? I know many places, never cleared after earthquakes for centuries. It is also an insurance that no one makes the same mistake buildin there again. Our planet has its ways and more of these have been predicted already. Are people really that incompetent and self- destructive?

Charlie,

good response to DVMDSC.

Concerning the livability there is a US company that Bob Vila shows in the episode redoing hurricane damage in Florida...2 x 40 modified containers made a nice bugalow type home .

\Bob Vila and TAW\Bob Vila ISBU Construction Video Links.mht.

shows a ceramic insulation coating with an R16 factor...they are willing to work with the Haitian Goverment if the shipping container idea gets going...need around 3 x 5 gal pails per unit- all sides/ends and top plus the air gap we have suggested est $35.oo per pail in bulk...direct from factory in container loads.

The foundation of our efforts as you point out is to give a safer shelter in the event of a hurricane, serve storm or earhquake....a container is not going to collapse or crumble or fly away.

Sure the Haitian population who are quite artistic...just look at some of the decorated buses and homes...will spruce them up quickly.

As far as your comment of outside PAP, you are absolutely right on point. As soon as they see good shelters being arranged in surrounding good communities they will migrate to these areas....jobs will definitley be created quickly in agriculture, support industry for doing the container work...like; Solar panel assy, LED lights, Water collection systems, garbage removal, conversions, erection/assy of modular communities, composting , bio-fuels it goes on.

Geoff Daly NH

I invite you to stay here when a next hurricane strikes. I have been through the 3 last ones. The container next to my house has been on its side for weeks. I have seen blocks of rock,the size of a small van. coming out of the ocean, bulldozer-ing through houses and rolling in the water like toys. We didn't even know they were under the beach sand there before. But it is in our nature to forget bad things, no? Almost empty, they are just not heavy enough.

...and so would you rather be in a container, or under a tarp, or under nothing whatsoever, (which half a million people currently have) when such things happen?

If not the container, please provide a lengthy comparative description of the relative benefits of your proposed plan.

and I don't think anyone here is proposing unsecured containers. CaptainMoosie, et al, have provided a detailed engineered anchoring analysis in this thread, capable of withstanding hurricane cat 5 forces. As the forces go up, so do the costs, and given the fubar with funding, even unsecured unmodified containers are better than nothing. seriously!

Chris

dvmdsc,

This is a much better description of the issues... thank you for this. presentation of information in a factual way is important. I think this is good solid data. I get a much better sense of the conditions in these scenarios. If you have more stories to tell, please take the time to share with us in this manner, descriptively. (and more paragraphs please (enter key press ever 5 sentences max)

cheers,

Chris

Hi Stuey, we all have to make parras.

"enter" in PC is the same key as "return" on Mac

Same place even - above 'shift'. New Macs even have both words on the key.

Though I'm still haven't found the "any key" on a PC, I think the above is correct.

Kyz

I've seen that type of installation.. with galvanized wire baskets?? filled with stone.. so I agree that is a solid installation... and certainly workable.. I thought though, that the Corten was designed to resist water corrosion (and rust to a degree)..and that if properly coated would have a long life in water??

Chris

#96
In reply to #95

dvmdsc

This was a long time ago but you hit the nail on the head. Any one

that has not lived in the tropics has no idea. I feel for you mate, GA from me.

I never evacuated for Floyd, from Wilmington, NC and found the eye odd. Went through one in Fort Lauderdale at the BAC line shack with the other linemen watching the planes.

One Convair 240 filled up and sat down on its tail. Captain Boy joked it was rotating.

I forget, same as you, some names of weather I have lived through.

It is interesting that the CIA, according to one CIA to another, reports no CIA agent at all in Haiti.

Seems stupid to me.

The container next to my house has been on its side for weeks.

On it's side.

Not busted up. Ten guys can stand it back up again.

Stu.

Yair, that crossed my mind too.

I wrote a bit and then went to my bit of necessary study of Puerto Rico.

Sure doesn't make the relationship between the US look "perfect", but sure makes it look an awful lot better than things would be for Puerto Ricans than things are for Haitians.

I once said about the US, "My past, is your future."

Hi DV, this is overturned container is of great interest to me.

Can you tell me;

The circumstances of storm when it tipped (wind speed, direction relative to long side, or was it hit by an object, or combination)

The terrain it was on (e.g. steep but terraced, or undulating or flat)

Was it chocked to level - or flat on the ground - or did it get eroded under - or....

Approximately what weight was in it and nature of payload (eg sliding or tipping or rolling items)

Did it move after tipping - or slide - or was stopped - if so by what.

Did it move before tipping - so was "tripped over"- or fell off a step - or similar events

I realise this presumes you had nothing better to do but watch a container during a hurricane - but as much as you can reconstruct of the events, would be of great help.

Photos would be a big bonus.

I have lots of numbers - but I am very fond of "practical examples".

Kyzine

P.s. include size - 20, 30, 40' and if standard or "hi-top" and if it was damaged by the events. e.g. doors failed or similar (also raises the question of if it was properly closed)

Thanks.

P.p.s If you would rather not post this here, you can CR4 PM anyone on the thread and they will give you my gmail address.

Terrain was flat. Some trees around but most short bushes <5 Ft. Parked 15 feet from a 6 feet long garden wall in waffled concrete. one of my stubborn designs. Container was standing parallel to it and toppled away from the wall on its longest side. 40 feet classic steel model. That side had a bump afterwards, because it tumbled on a sharp piece of rock. On the other side of the wall there is the house - 2 stories plus 45 degrees saddle roof. 26 ft high - L shape and both sides on the outside 90 ft long. 2 nd story 4 feet overhang all around. In hurricanes are lots of gusty winds with water. It is like someone spraying with a fire hose of 100 feet diameter and of course more energy is unleashed that way. When hurricanes pass not too far from you all these gifts come from the 4 sides, one by one when the hurricane passes. I have no ideas of the wind speed, but my shutters are aluminum bedboards of mercedes trucks. 2m long X 40cm wide and 2,5 cm thick. Hollow extruded panels with 4 bridges inside and these bent 7 cm in the middle and reset. All the casuarina trees got de- rooted too at that moment. The baseline of the container was also about 2 feet off. (maybe the stone) I had about 1500 kg porcelain tiles in it evenly dispersed at the head side. 30% were broken. They moved to the sidewall too. I have been watching the container from the barricaded balconies. Always one side is reasonable calm, and the container was moving for about 30 minutes but just didn't topple and then sudden - one bit too far. The doors were tight and the frame slightly off but reusable. The house is 1/2 mile from the ocean at the end of a canal. Waves in the canal were 5-6 feet. I must have had pictures after the hurricane on one of my collection of 6 crashed HD's that I possibly ever might like to recover. I like to look at happy things, seen misery enough Hope this helps

Are you saying that the container was on uneven ground?

The baseline of the container was also about 2 feet off. (maybe the stone) I had about 1500 kg porcelain tiles in it evenly dispersed at the head side. 30% were broken. They moved to the sidewall too.

Do you mean that it was not in contact with the ground all the way along the container? Sorry to ask this stuff DV, but I'm also keen to find an engineering reason for the container falling over. There's been enough hot air so far to start our own hurricane, and I'd like to cut to the chase and try to find how much more ballast is really needed to stabilise a container in a breeze.

Your description describes to me that it was teetering for about 30 mins, and then fell over. Is that right?

Could the last teeter have been a destabilising as the result of load shift?

Thanks in anticipation,

Cheers,

Stu.

This message escaped to my attention. The container was sitting on a flat ground. Limestone base and leveled out 40 years ago. Very stable. Next to the container was a rock sticking out. The container has been - close to airlift (airborne) for about 30 minutes in a row. The hurricane was really playing with it, lifting it off the ground on one side - 1 foot, 6 inches, 5 feet ...... and bam, it toppled, never became airborne since one side kept ground contact. Afterwards it was not completely on the ground anymore. And the side panel (roof then) had a slope of about. A little bit later we had the most beautiful weather. Not even a breeze. The eye passed and 1 hour later the hell came loose again, this time for more than 12 hours in a row. Normally a hurricane passes here in 5-6 hours. Frances came to visit us for 36 hours. Jeanne was here too. Katrina was born north of our island but barely touched it. I have been watching Florida during the 14 years I am in the region and the impact of forces I have experienced - Andrew excluded - have never been that big as you experience on the islands.

Thanks for that.

Did you hear of , or have any info on, both the peak wind velocity, and the storm mean velocity?

We're doing wind loading calcs all the time, but they are THEORY. I know that in actual fact theory does not often match practise. I'd like to develop a set of stability guidelines, rather as a table, for our, and any others too, container structures, which are generically suitable to the weather experienced in any of the locations in which they may be deployed, without all of the BS. Yes, it will take some time.

Thanks for your help.

Cheers

Stu

Good idea Stuey!!! Enough of the BS calculations which sometimes can be a real pain to do from one project to the next! A table of values would be greatly appreciated by all!!!!

GA from me

My hurricane experience is that anemometers tend to loose their cups when the wind starts blowing...

There is a great deal of difference in wind velocities experienced on the shore line and just a short distance inland. The water/air surface is very low friction, so the winds can build and maintain velocity over water that is quickly lost over land. Unless, of course, you are talking about Hugo, which crossed South Carolina, got up into the mountains of western North Carolina, did quite a bit of damage there (Charlotte, NC), then headed back to sea to rebuild and have a go at those northern states (I don't remember which ones, but they are north of the Mason Dixon line somewhere, and don't normally have to deal with real hurricanes)...

Level 5 hurricanes blow at greater than 156 mph, and there have been some reports of hurricanes blowing greater than 200 mph, but I doubt you see that sort of velocity very far from open water.

The Beauford Scale rates anything over 73 mph a hurricane. Most people begin having trouble walking into the wind as it gets to around 40 mph. By 100 mph, the wind can rip the clothes off your back. Which may have something to do with why it is difficult to build an anemometer that can measure actual wind speeds in a hurricane...

Some very good thoughts there Chris!

While you're at it construct some lakes to capture the storm runoff and release it a slow rate, otherwise the main canal will convey it to the ocean in very short period of time.

You're going to need levee's constructed along some portions oft he canal no matter what, as there is bound to be some low areas encountered. Just hope the soils on that plain are suitable for constructing well built levees.....you don't want the same problem that California is experiencing with poorly constructed levees that are also very susceptible to earthquakes. No guys, those CA levees were not constructed by the USACE, but by farmers that settled that at the beginning of the 20th Century. And it's going to cost the state of CA BILLIONS of $$$$ to correct!

Chris, what you're proposing is going to take $$$$billions to construct and years to complete....mucho heavy earth moving equipment as well.

One huge question lingers in my mind about all of this...........BUT is the soil on that plain fertile enough to sustain crops year after year? Before getting too far down the "Primrose Path" here guys, someone ought to do a preliminary study of the soil types prevalent in this part of Haiti. Do any comprehensive soil surveys and resulting maps even exist? Existing vegetative cover there now, if any? and who exactly owns the lands?? Many or a few well-heeled land owners? A study should also be completed regarding the suitability of various crops to grow in that soil.

Have great sunny weekend ....I'm outta here

or a least for new....have to do some property line surveying today so i can the new replacement fence installed this spring.....all 850 feet of 6-foot tall stockade and 2 wide gates.

Hi Captain,

Thank you.

The first story in the world... as old as civilization itself, far older than the Bible, is the story told in the "Atrahasis' called the Epic of Gilgamesh, (A King in ancient Sumeria) and part of that story (an interpretation I read) tells of the god Ninurta causing floods in that land (Iraq) Gilgamesh went forth with the men of his city and countryside, and worked in water up to his chest, as he was massively strong, and rebuilt the dikes and gates that had been created to irrigate the crop lands.

Part of this idea is the premise of "If it were up to me..." type of thinking. You will recall from your military history that on the 6th of June 1944, a million man army with thousands if pieces of equipment, and every man a small foldable shovel for digging foxholes... What did they accomplish?

What can be done with a million man army? Does it need to cost billions. NO! Will there already be heavy equipment required in ANY plan to clean up the damage in Haiti? YES.. Am I proposing so much more than anyone else? No. It will cost. But if we, as has been said many times.. if we can engage that million+ army of Haitians, and equip them with the tools (shovels, bobcats, hi-hoes, backhoes, dumptrucks, et al.) This system of canals and water control C A N be put together rather quickly. I've personally seen a hi-hoe do a rapid relocation of a half-kilometer of dirt, equivalent to a small ditch, in an hour. just giv-er... git er done.

We need surveyors and water table testing - yes. We need hydraulics (land) engineers and much more. We need Eminent Domain. The locations I showed for the location of canals appeared to be largely unimproved. I'm not saying someone doesn't own it. I am saying that give proper irrigation, fertilizing, workers, and care, that this land can increase its productivity 100 fold, and even if the same people still own it, they should certainly be able to see more from it.

The ancient story I describe is remarkable for one thing. It is remarkable for the example of effective Leadership, and while America has apparently given up Kingship, (which was handed down from the gods as a solution to mankind), has their replacement been able to produce something more effective? In the older days, I would have said yes. The more I look at the current political scene, I would have to say no. Sadly no. I like Obama, and if it were up to him, I'm sure he would be an effective leader. Its the rest of the BS that amazingly is screwing things up. America needs a house-cleaning of the first order.. not of the presidency, but of the other corrupt organizations that have grown to be overly obstructionist to effective action. The evidence is ... evident.

Directly engaging those obstructionist organizations is part of why they exist. its part of their raison d'etre. to consume Our energy, and the energy of those would Lead effective Action. They hold the power they do because of the money and responsibility they've been given. It makes one question the decisions to give them that power and money in the first place. They must be ignored, and worked around, and other sources of money put together. What is needed is Real value. (food, tools, workers)

What could you do with a million man army? I have no doubts that You would fix things. What do you need to get the job done?... not in terms of money but labour, tools, equipment, and materials. I chose containers because its quantifiable. They provide a means of getting rubble out of the city, and also getting them into the canals, which will be stable for much longer than just rough dirt edges. That is one of the effects that will encourage the new economy... many kilometers of canals edged with containers.. to walk on and provide easy access to boats, to move the boats up and down the canals.. etc.

Chris

CaptMossie,

good comment to Chris...but remember the DUTCH have been doing this for hundreds of years.

Lets call upon them to assist..they have some fantastic canal/ditch digging machinary...like a surface TBM, can dig ditches from 4 to 10 meters wide and 2 to 5 meters deep...just have the rig adjustable to what ever width/depth needed.

For canals the have a similar unit but travels either side offset to each other...20 to 40 meters wide and up to 8 meters deep.

Would make Chrises idea in around 4 to 6 months working 24/7...then line with concrete canvas or similar. Cost; let Wall St pay for it by donating some of there ingotten bonuses...see my answer to StuWrights question of someone rich.

Cover the land with "waste" composted...they have a large agri business that can be expanded (Banana's, Mangos, Cherries, different Berries, Sugar Cane, Grapes and other leafed veggies plus various leaves from Jotropha tree/bushes...gather and compost). Plus Pig/Cow/Goat Manures....generates jobs and self sufficiency.

Yes need a full soil evaluation going forward.

Could use the canals/ditches to place water distilation plants next too and use wind/solar to generate electricity. Place water in storage tanks and then transfer via tankers to the Community Frac-tanks we envisage.

Hi. The Dutch have soil and need to dig days to find a rock. Their canals are well shielded from the North Sea with locks. Tide difference there is 6 meter. Here the canals have been dug with explosives, big hard metal circular saws and removal of the "dirt" has been done with everything that has a bucket. The Netherlands are very flat. Water flow in the canals is only that what they allow it to be. In Amsterdam and Rotterdam the canals are surrounded with buildings, they run through the cities. It is pretty calm up there. The low lands (also Belgium) learned the lessons well from 1953 when they lost 10,000 lives. With Wilma we had 5-6 feet waves in front of our door. That is already 2 feet above the "small craft advisory" to not go into the ocean. Just for your info.

Dear Kyzine,

thank you for your feedback. I was sure some would not like it... its either I was having a stroke of genius, or just a stroke...lol.

but I agree with some of your comments, but I can't rate it 0/10... as that would deny the positives. It actually rates somewhat higher than a large shantytown in my opinion, with no drainage. If people are at risk from tidal bores or tsunami's then they are at risk. The canals that I describe haven't been built many places in the world, so there is little data. Venice is the only thing that comes to mind immediately, and I am proposing something safer than that.

I take the good commentary with the bad.. and I will factor everything you and others say. I consider you an honest and intelligent engineering person.

I am missing elevation data for the areas i'm looking at.. so it is all guessing. When looking at building on top of a quake zone,... it seems everything fails. In this case I thing that the water will have a cushioning effect, not a tsunami effect... but there is no way of knowing...

If woul could lay down a few dozen square kilometers of sponge-rubber.. then build using more quake resistant designs, and fail-as-designed structures, we could prevent more death and destruction.. but it gets expensive. We don't have any traction here, so many ideas quickly go to fantasy... unfortunately.

If we can identify ready sources of energy and materials as wealth creating products, then the reconstruction and rescue of Haiti can proceed apace.

Chris

Kyzine, exceptional feedback. thank you.

Kyzine, Ky, Stuey, CaptMoosie, Transcendian.

I thank you for your thoughtful input. You are all wise beyond your years.

CaptMoosie, your last comments remind me of the bombing of Shanghai which prompted a massive migration of millions of civilians westward hundreds of kilometers carrying all their possessions... (I saw documentary on it, but can't find any sources at the moment.)

The point is, there needs to be a destination that can provide the basics of life support for these civilians. (refugees from the destruction)

Chris

Ankor Wat.

Hi Stu

If I may ad the 5th point, which is, that to evaluate any system, you need data and reliable information about hard ware and were it is supposed to be, and when, and to be paid by whom. You need topographical information and soil and rock evaluations, like the Captain has said. Heaps and heaps and after that scrutinizing all the information. Even if you leave engineering standards be all a bakers dozen you will end up with a great mess. All unfunded, naturally. If it were not for my true willingness to help I would have no idea why I am still hopeful that something will come out of this.

Haiti is a bloody train wreck and has to be treated as such. Not like some rock stars and their train wrecking exercises/antics, but the real thing. You are right though, who could be surprised that introducing western intelligent, trained behavior to people who walk a daily walk of misery and were open slather (anarchy, Chris) rules supreme. In such a time even the dreamers have relevance, how ever much they are off the mark with proposals or visions.

It is the needy that have to say what they desire and I have not heard much about what the locals think about it. Kyzine seems to be the nearest thing to real information but then again I have not spent that much time on fact finding over the last days to be able to make up my mind what is going on there, at this time. As you know the news snippets we receive her in Australia are ?....?...?

I just wish I had more time.

I wish Chris would keep going and come up with more fertilizer.

I wish corruption would stop.

I wish that any type of cyclone would just pass by.

One out of four is good enough for me, Ky.

The premiere problem I see in Haiti is the overpopulation issue. You need to move the people out of the cracker box-sized piece of land they're on, but plopping them onto floating houseboats in the middle of a man-made canal system that will fail with a decent sized earthquake is not the solution.

Sorry, I agree with Kyzine and Stuey on this one...the concept is nice, but in the real world where Mother Nature doesn't play fair it's not a grand idea after all. Better to place the housing units on flat land as much as possible and stay away from tidal rivers and steep hillsides. Chris, it was a brilliant try, but as a Civil Engineer who has dealt with waterways and levees in 5 different USACE Districts up and down the Big Muddy and in the Pacific Northwest, I just cannot recommend the concept.....just stay on relatively flat dry highlands, away from the coast and Haitian rivers, and please keep the concept KISS.......hint: keep everything about the container layout in linear fashion and not spokes of the wheel deal because sooner or later it has to be laid out in the field by someone....so keep it straight, keep in in multiples and keep all containers accessible to area drives and road ways because that's where the water mains and sewer lines will be located eventually. And don't forget the placement of fire hydrants in regards to any layout....figure 250 feet max fire hose pull from any given hydrant to any building location....and all building components must be accessible to fire breathers fighting any fire. You cannot even count of two adjacent hydrant working at the same time, hence the 250 feet max hose pull because the other hydrant may be broken and dead....believe me I know that it happens all the time....I once served as the City Engineer for the City of Amsterdam New York back in the 1990's....it's a small city of around 24,000 and situated on the banks of the Mohawk River about 30 miles west of the capital city of Albany. [Aside: In it's heyday in the late 40's and early 50's the population was more like 55,000 due to all of the carpet mills and the city was world renown as the carpet manufacturing capital of the world. Mohawk Carpets (now Mohasco) was the largest mill, and some of its best carpets for instance still adorn the White House, the UN General Assembly Building, Buckingham and Windsor Palaces and castles and mansions worldwide]. Amsterdam is also known as having the largest 2 structure fires ever in New York State history, and both Mohasco Blazes (closed-up abandoned factory buildings)occurred there when I was the City Engineer. We found during the first baze alone that nearly 80 percent of the privately owned hydrant on the Mohasco lands failed when opened by the fire department...of course many failed (about a 1/3) when the fire crews tried to open the hydrant foot valves the wrong direction.....the problem being the privately installed and owner Mohasco hydrants opened oppositehand from th remainder of the city-owned hydrants. Anyhow, we had to call in 43 other local fire departments for assitance to fight Mohasco I blaze that occurred in 7 seperate mill buildings, many of which were a dozen stories tall. Heack at one point we almost ran out of water in the city's 2 water storage tanks that totalled 30 Million Gallons....I had to order the Water Treatment plant to rapid filter the raw water to the plant's maximum rate of 65 MGD so we didn't suck the entire city dry and collapse the larger mains doue to vaccum effects! We fought that blaze of 3 days and had to go to boil water order another 5 days aftyerwards until okay'ed by the NYSDOH thatthe drinking water in the system was safe. Now you probably can see the importance of properly place and viable fire hydrants...and yes, the contents within the container can and will burn. Okay, end of object lesson #1!!!!*** LOL***

I had the following thoughts rolling around with the marbles in my noggin the past week and thought I had better share it with y'all:

I really don't know why the Dominican Republic just doesn't Annex the Nation of Haiti and move the population the hell out of there.....have the UN pay for there subsistence until they can be relocated to a number of other counties. I know this is going to be popular one bit, but I thinking outside the container box again........moving them will solve a multitude of problems and sins....They can then move back after all the mess is cleaned up, roads and bridges rebuilt, infrastructure of all types is constructed, new housing built for all, and the denuded lands reforested for starters. I just see any of the preceding happening soon when 9 million souls are acting like squatters on every piece of decent available land!

I ask you this, what do you think FEMA & HLS would do if terrorists decimated NYC with a small Tactical Nuke of several Megatons Yield or a dirty Fission bomb? You damn well know they'd move the populace the hell out of the city, right?! Because it's a disaster area and unsustainable!!! Just like Haiti is undergoing presently...and it can only get worse as the summer comes along with the Tropical storms an hurricanes!!!!

Just something to think about, but not get locked into.

I for one would not worry about the effects of an earthquake on properly anchored housing containers provided the following is adhered to:

1). Single-story construction. the higher you go the worse the earthquake's oscillations acting on any given structure.....that's a basic fact of earthquake ground movement mechanics....the upper heavy loads act in a "pendulum" fashion and overstress the superstructure of the building. That is why single-story wooden buildings having appropriately designed shear walls nearly always survive pretty much intact......forget masonry structures as they have very little or no material resistance to lateral shear and tensile forces....wood and steel do!

2). Don't plant these housing/shelter units on soil masses that are known or suspect of "liquidification" during an quake event. These areas are predominately found along river and lake shorelines and along ocean coastlines, but can occur even inland where there is a high groundwater level and certain susceptible soils......think of these areas as "quicksand" for a better metaphor.

3). Do build the housing/shelter unit on hillsides. We've all seen what landslides and mudslides can do to steep soil slopes and houses in California and other places around the world.

Just some more input..........

The Erie Canal was successful for its time. It still works, though primarily for recreation.

(I believe there is a Fault Line that runs through the Utica area of New York. Don't know if building codes there that fully take that into account.)

How water is suppled to LA, is of interest.

It has been said that they would benefit from more catchment off roofs there.

It is a good point Captain Moosie makes about how people really build, and why straight lines and squares and blocks predominate. The information about firefighting issues is valuable as well. Far as a DR take over of Haiti endorsed and managed and paid for by the UN, I have my doubts about how much interested the DR itself would be interested in taking on a set of problems nobody else seems properly equipped to handle with the condition of Haiti, its population, resources, and culture.

Some research into the relationship between Puerto Rico and the US, or Denmark and Iceland, may be of help far as political issues that have contributed to where Haiti is now, compared to conditions in Puerto Rico.

Trans, per your #1407 post.

Yes, there is a minor fault-line near Utica NY, but like most NYS faults it is very deep and has very little affect on surface buildings and infrastructure including the Erie Canal.

Around 2005 or so, New York State instituted a new NYS Building & Fire Prevention Code to take into account earthquakes into the design of NEW structures. Older structures for the most part, are sort of "Grandfathered" and exempt from structural modification to account for quake forces, which BTW in NYS are fairly mild. The largest quake in recorded in NYS occurred near Massena NY (way up north) along the St. Lawrence River in the mid-1940's , registering I believe a 5.2 or 5.5 magnitude with very little resulting damage...a couple of cracked water mains and buildings/houses...and no fatalities. Most earthquake activity in NYS occurs in the "North Country", ie. Adirondack Mountains and the surrounding Adirondack Preserve that has very sparse populations....most quakes are very deep and centered around the Blue Mountain Lake area, but can be sometimes felt in Albany, the capital city about 125 miles away, give or take....depends on what the building you're in is resting on. I used to work in downtown Albany in a old 1850-ish masonry mansion that rests upon a deep formation of squishy toothpaste-like clay formation, like most of Albany's structures. During a few good sized quakes it was shaking side to side like crazy due to the underlying clay stratas. In fact, some of the largest building structural projects that I have designed over the years are in downtown Albany, particularly down near the Hudson River...on some of my projects, the MASSIVE H-piles were driven to refusal some 160 feet plus/minus below the surface. That's how deep the clay is there and it does shake like "Jello" in seismic events......the buildings involved have been constructed up to 30 story short skyscrapers, as well as several reinforced concrete parking garages (6 or 7 level) for the State of New York and the City of Albany Parking Authority.....each being very heavy.

BTW, the original Erie Canal was abandoned by NYS circa around 1908, and the construction of many locks and movable lift-gate structures were constructed across the Mohawk River to regulate the water flow and navigable depths. The earthquakes in NY have so far had no effect as far as I know on the locks and damming structures. You'll still find that the Mohawk R/Erie Canal (Actually called the NYS Barge Canal) is still used for transport of bulk items like gasoline, home heating oil and diesel by barge, but as you say, it's remains more of a recreational waterway for boaters and fisherman today.

Just a short NYS history lesson!!!

CaptMoosie.

I and a number of others agree that evacuation of a large portion of the population would be an ideal way to relieve some of the pressure in Haiti, as Transcendian has been suggesting for some time. The question is, who is willing to take on these people? If one evacuates a city in the US (New Orleans, for example) there is some willingness, however begrudgingly, of other US communiities (i.e., Houston) to accept the displaced population. These people speak a unique language, are poorly educated for the most part, and would present a serious drain on local resources (think, for instance, in terms of the refugees from Viet Nam, the mountain tribes, that were relocated to various parts of the US- although this was at a much smaller scale than would be required in this case)...

French Guyana has a lot in common. (Carribbean waters, french, creole, tropical climate.)

Moving a couple of million people there will require a lot of shipping...

the population of FG would be completely overwhelmed by such an influx. (221,000 pop)

I don't know.. just a thought.

Chris