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spacecannon
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Shipping Container Housing

01/16/2010 12:05 PM

I have a civil engineer friend whoose dream it is to design and build shipping container housing for general use and for emergency use, like an instant city for Haiti. Im trying to motivate him to live his dream, so what does everyone think about container housing?

spacecannon

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Geoff Daly
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#334

Re: Shipping Container Housing

01/31/2010 5:06 PM

Guys

GOOD NEWS, just recieved a call from Whitehouse about President Obama's visit to NASHUA NH on Tuesday for his town meeting at the NASHUA HS North.

Have been invited to partake and meet with a staff member re Haiti.

Trans: can you have the thread you spoke about available by Monday night and maybe email it to me to give to the staffer on Tuesday...meet at around 12:15 PM?

Also anyone else can email me information relevant to the container idea for shelter use in HAITI.

geoffdaly@mkd-usa.com

or call me at 603-318-5900 (I also use Skype)

Geoff Daly NH

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Kyzine
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#349

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 1:25 AM

spacecannon and or Chris, somewhere I saw a link to a container model or dfx download. if it was on here, please point me at it. thanks

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Nigh
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#353
In reply to #349

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 7:33 AM

I have a 40' container 3D model in Inventor, can't remember where I found it but it was on a container suppliers web site.

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Geoff Daly
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#354
In reply to #353

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 9:16 AM

Nigh,

Can you post the 3D inventor model in a downloadable format....DWG, DXF, etc. Or point the group to the website where it can be downloaded.

Could be very useful for those well versed in InventorCAD drawing going forwards.

Thanks

Geoff Daly NH

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#356
In reply to #354

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 10:39 AM

I had a quick search but couldn't find where I got the models from originally however, after looking on my PC I realised that I had models of 20ft & 40ft containers. Sending assemblies from Inventor is a bit involved as you have to include all of the piece parts so I have created 2 new parts from the assemblies & saved them as STEP files. I've uploaded these to a file sharing site, I've never done this before so I hope it works.

container.zip

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chrisg288
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#357
In reply to #356

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 10:42 AM

awesome thanks!
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cwarner7_11
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#365
In reply to #356

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 12:58 PM

Thanks- I might be able to use this to model some wind loading...
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#364
In reply to #349

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 12:52 PM

Check out posts 43, 48 and possibly 135 for reference to container model. Don't know if this is what you are after...
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Kyzine
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#350

Re: The Haiti Case Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 3:34 AM

Just looking at "predictable" problems, if the focus is "solving Haiti" - not disasters in general.

The second thing is how much of this "solution" is urban and how much rural? - (the land sitters)

The third thing is what is the status in terms of phase 1 and phase 2 resources?

Note I have changed the title to suit this focus.

If this is the goal, it's past time to get 'down and dirty' on logistics and what's practical.

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#351
In reply to #350

Re: The Haiti Case Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 6:21 AM

Some interesting (and current) info re container housing for Haiti and some construction info;

http://www.isbu-info.org/2010/01/25/haiti-aid-or-exploitation/

http://www.shipping-container-housing.com/shipping-container-house-plans.html
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chrisg288
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#355
In reply to #351

Re: The Haiti Case Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 10:37 AM

Really great! GA
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#366
In reply to #351

Re: The Haiti Case Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 1:09 PM

I got a note from Martha Skinner who is mentioned in the isbu link you provided.

She indicated she will be reviewing the Thread later today, Monday Feb 1st.

I reached out to her because their plans mentioned integration of 55 gallon barrel designs for water, and food.

It is of interest that ISBU mentions that they feel it is improper for Haitians or anyone else to feel they ought to get the containers for free.

Certainly I can see where they might have fears in relation to their containers, and views of them. Along the way I have attempted to express that we are attempting to influence the allocation of funds so as to integrate the containers into the mix.

Last I looked no one had responded to the thread question I put up in the Commercial Space of CR4 asking what they individually or as companies had to sell to Haiti.

The issue of corruption in Haiti is not one we can address. This is an area where US or international influence is likely important if companies involved in this fairly mature industry of container modifications are to take a less jaundiced view of Haiti as a market.

In my readback to Mr. Daly concerning the order of things I had mentioned an apparent need for input from attorneys designed to provide clear title and deed to Haitians who might be receiving aid in the form of Shipping Containers.

I doubt that deeds to tents are provided when they are handed out.

I am curious as well now, as I have been, about prices being paid for tents, and how they compare to prices paid in other markets.

At any rate it is likely that it is one thing to give away tents, and another to give away a container, or a container home.

When making our presentations we need to at least be sensitive to some of these issues.

While it is acknowledged that much of the Haitian economic activity is agricultural, their site lists resources as including Bauxite, Copper, Calcium Carbonate, Gold, Marble and Hydropower.

Who makes money from those sources is of interest.

Things in Haiti would likely go a bit better if some of those there who do have wealth, put up some of it towards the general well being of the citizens.

Possibly we are simply unaware of those attempting such actions on the behalf of their country.

I'll mark this off topic myself.

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CaptMoosie
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#352

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 7:24 AM

Hello Gents:

Just got up a little while ago and having my first mug of Joe before works starts. I won't be in the forum here today too much because of pressing work obligations + my Solar PV systems Contractor will be back today to (hopefully) finish the installation they started last Thursday.......

Here's some more calculations using Geoff's idea of racheting straps and anchorages.

IF there is an abundance of 55-gallon oil drums in Haiti they could be used by the Haitians as concrete molds for container anchors.....very simple, but of course you're going to need a lot of them....

Vol. of 55 gallon oil drum = 55 gal. * 0.13378 = 7.36 CF

Wgt. of concrete anchor = 7.36 CF * 145 PCF = 1067#

Total Horiz. Wind Force (Windward side) = 16,841# [To be resisted by 4 equally sp. tie-down straps.]

Horz. F per strap (Windward side) = 4,211# TENSION [Note: Straps to be tied off at top edges of container roof, not draped over to other side....must prevent the container from sliding underneath the straps.]

Total Vertical Wind Force (uplift entire roof) = 20,037# [To be resisted by total of 8 anchorage points]

Vert. F per strap (uplift) = 20,037#/8 anchors = 2,505# TENSION

Maximum Total Vectored Wind F per strap = [ (4,211# ^2) + ( 2,505# ^2)] SQRT = 4,212# TENSION (at Windward side)

Req'd. Min. No. of Conc. Anchors (windward strap) = 4,212#/1,067# per anchor =

3.95 anchors [concrete anchors at each windward strap location. Of course this doesn't take into account depth of burial and the resultant passive soil resistance developed of soil backfilled and compacted atop the anchor block group]

COULD USE (4) 55- gallon DRUMS FILLED W/ CONCRETE PER ANCHOR POINT

Total # of anchors = 4 drums/point * 8 anchor point locations = 32 anchors

NOTE:

The number of concrete anchors can be reduced somewhat once the passive soil resistance can be determined. Need feedback regarding diameter of a standard 55-gallon drum so this resistance value can be refined. Depth of burial needs to ascertained...what digging depths are Haitian Laborers capable of hand digging with shovels???? Can 4 feet of compacted soil backfill be a safe assumption? Need Validation!!!!

Total # of individual straps = 4 per container side for a total of 8 per container unit.

Again, down and dirty calculations....some more food for thought.

Have a great sunny day!

Geoff Daly, it was a pleasure talking to you last night on the tele. It appears we are on the same track. I will get back to you regarding my cousins' response pursuant to our discussion.

RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!!!!!!!!

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#358
In reply to #352

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 11:25 AM

Drums maybe available but sauna tubes are more practical and less expensive if graft can be suppressed.

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Garthh
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#360
In reply to #358

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 11:44 AM

You mean Sonotubes

Barrels are good because they already exist as junk, the problem is the concrete, which costs money!

The local thugs are probably going to end up in the containers as bunkers/base of operation...
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#361
In reply to #360

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 12:15 PM

Ah you are correct, I always remember the first I heard of them, was told by a man from NYC and it sounded like sauna to me.

Plastic drums maybe found though the normal return fee may prevent them laying about in quantity and steel drums may not remain in suitable condition for use in the humid saltwater environment at Haiti.

empty containers can be easily moved with pallet-jacks; two at each end and bugaloo..

Thugs like bugs in a can

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#362
In reply to #360

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 12:23 PM

Good Answer. You watched "District 9" didn't you?

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Garthh
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#363
In reply to #362

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 12:33 PM

Not yet

as long as the openings don't face the street, a container is gonna be drive-by resistant.

The political problem goes back to the time of columbus. The disparity between the haves & nots has always been extreme.

This is shaping up to be our next military occupation, protecting the rights of the multi nationals
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#372
In reply to #363

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 9:38 PM

Garthh, you're probably right about the military occupation. First the looting will start alittle at a time then continually grow, then shootings will become commonplace, then after the public outcry worldwide about the bodies beginning to pile up in the streets because of the actions dictated by the various Warlords and their "thugs" will the US Army have to impose Martial Law. It's sad but true because when it comes down to survival it'll be a battle between the haves and the have nots....

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#368
In reply to #352

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 5:04 PM

Hi Captain, good thoughts, but more efficient use of an import, might be to cast drum diameter discs. Or as said, use a wheel rim (junk) or an X of short planks (wood an export), given this is P1-2, so will likely be re-cycled into P3.

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Geoff Daly
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#371
In reply to #368

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 9:16 PM

Kyzine,

we could weld two of the car rims together and make a cocrete form and make a concrete drum with a steel hawser coming out or use local scavanged rebar welded thru the rims to make a shackle eye/hook....there are plenty of junk cars west of the city.

Geoff Daly NH

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Kyzine
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#374
In reply to #371

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 10:26 PM

Hi Geoff, I'm just not getting the need to use concrete at all in P1.

P2, for sure, as we are making what authorities and aid folk may deem 'permanent' for the peasants, we should do it properly, once, on the right site, with water and waste infrastructure pre-installed, like a real development, properly planned, serviced and footed.

To pull a rim out of a depth of dirt takes far greater force than the mass above the projected area (weight the parallel cylinder of dirt). You have to pull out a quite large cone of material. This after all is the principal of screw in ground anchors - the weight + compression forces to shear out that cone. Not the mass of the anchor.

This is quite a small thing.

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#367

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 2:10 PM

A couple of days ago, looking at some of Chrisg288's (and others) renditions of containers used for housing, especially Chris' Pyramid and Hanging Gardens concepts, it dawned on me that most everyone seems to be thinking in terms of setting these containers on flat ground, which is fine- but a lot of the destroyed housing was actually on hill sides. Many Haitians have occupied the same plot of land for generations, deriving ownership rights from long-term occupation rather than actual legal title, and they are concerned about losing their rights to these little plots. This suggests we should consider also ways of installing these containers on hill sides, and I asked Chris to render a couple of ideas, and this is what he has come up with:

Of course, one would need more accurate representations of the local geography to determine the best approach, but here we can see that the lower residences provide a terrace- maybe for a garden- for the upper residences. It would seem that if the lower containers were properly anchored with the appropriate foundation support, upper containers could be locked in place using the built-in hardware, and the whole structure should be fairly secure in a heavy storm scenario. One would need to space the clusters of units to allow vehicular and pedestrian traffic to flow smoothly, and storm drainage would be a serious issue. Properly designed and configured, the upper most containers in the cluster could serve as a base for a solar power system that could provide some lighting at least. Incorporated into the structure could be some sort of communal cistern to catch rain water. Waste disposal would, of course, still be an issue...
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#369
In reply to #367

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 6:08 PM

Sans boomtrucks, or cranes calls for hefty gin poles, block and tackle, and screw jacks.

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#370
In reply to #369

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 6:36 PM

I'd call that very phase 3 - and in Haiti context - a village.

But faced with that sort of slope - the usual method in to dig a trench into the hill, insert container tail in, and replace the hill over it, leaving 4 to 6 feet of 'roof' 'sticking out' for water deflection. The spare dirt becomes an apron in front.

Makes a very temperature stable environment.

But if you have an excavator, it's remarkably quick.

You would need the chimney (previous) to make it habitable.

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#1285
In reply to #370

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 1:37 AM

I was thinking about this picture and CW's request for hillside containers... so, assuming one had access to bulldozers and lifting equipment, pile driving gear... how would you put together a hillside system of containers? any other ideas?

In my drawign, if people weren't sheltering in the containers, I could also see using transparent membranes for the water catchment, and putting soil on top of the containers, and creating a terraced greenhouse... it would be humid, and catchment water could be stored on every level. these containers could be part of a sand filtration system with the containers filled with sand... water passes through each level going down.. gravity fed. pure water at bottom.. also could have containers as composting toilets or water storage.. lots of things to put in containers besides humans.
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#1287
In reply to #1285

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 3:07 AM

Chris,

45°, as this inherently is - is too steep in a high rain or earthquake zone.

Explore this using 20' containers and buried ass into the hill - as described - by me ages ago.

But be aware you still have the hydraulic and liquefaction phenomenas to consider, be it housing or water or sewerage - as at some point they will not be loaded - so will "float".

Kyzine

p.s. I did not see CW's request, but there is always email if you guys need advice in advance.
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#1288
In reply to #1287

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 3:16 AM

Kyzine,

If you look, you will see I posted this in response to your 'ass into the hill' post, which you posted in response to CW's... lol... pay attention now I do acknowledge that you came up with a lot of accurate insights. You might have spent more time explaining things, so it stood out more, if you know what I mean..an abbreviated one-liner doesn't always do the communications thing well enough.

I am aware of the mudslide thing... but I was thinking, if the water reaching the hill is block by complete coverage with containers and tarps, then the hill will dry out. That coupled with some pilings into the bedrock would stabilize the whole situation.

I didn't think about the containers being empty though.

ps.. can't you make yourself a new email address and create a new profile for cr4? besides.. it is kind of fun with you having to be a Guest...lol... well I get a kick out it anyway... bad boy.

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#1289
In reply to #1285

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 10:48 AM

Chris, you may have a novel idea there stacking up the containers on a hillside, but.....

Only one huge problem though, and that it is EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE to place Rock Bolts to bedrock or even use of soil nails. Depending on the length of a typical 2.0" diameter rock bolt (they're hollow you know for grouting purposes), the cost to fully install just a single one can range anywhere from $5,000 up to $25,000 apiece......first you have to do a subsurface survey incl. borings, lab testing to determine rock strengths, then you need to bring in the coring equipment, buy the bolts and cement grout, conduct fled tests (for determining pull-out resistance strength and yield), then grout them after installation, then post-tension them.

Just to anchor a dozen containers alone may require 2 or 3 dozen rock anchors alone......just not a feasible option here.......these types of anchors are usually only found in huge Civil Works Projects like dam foundations, locks, the old World Trade Center foundation perimeter wall.

Don't even consider soil nails for use in this project....you don't and will not have the adequate field QA/QC to assure successful installations......and that cost lots of money and technical expertise. I doubt any Haitian living there in the country has any of this experience and technical expertise....and sorry, it is something you cannot teach anyone regardless of smarts and IQ overnight, let alone 5 years education, training and experience. I'm not being a racist here...it applies to everyone on the entire planet.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.....I have designed no less than 8 or 9 HUGE Civil Works projects w/ the USACE alone in the past that employed these anchors and at least 1/2 dozen of so similar projects in private practice. Not for the faint hearted. Also, by using them in projects you are taking huge risks that the underlaying rock is homogeneous or nearly so, without large fissures and other faults.....unfortunately, no one has x-ray vision and can see underground and find out everything there is to know about the rock and it's characteristics, strengths and weaknesses, and other vital properties.

Also, you need to bank on having some failures installing these anchors, so you need HUGE Contingent funds!!!!

Another thing to consider is that it's been reported that much of the rock found in (under) Haiti consists of limestone that is prone to sinkholes. That means that it's weal and porous, not a type of rock you want to anchor anything into and keep it there for the next 75-100 years.

Overall, you may spend several billions of $$$$ to install rock anchors and/or soil nails into hillsides throughout the country...IMHO, it just isn't worth the effort.

Regarding the labels: Print them in Creole as well as French and English!!!!

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#1290
In reply to #1289

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 11:26 AM

Per Kyzines posting: He is correct about the hillside slopes being too steep. But I feel compelled to add additional information and discussion:

Keep in mind that most of the overburden soil atop the bedrock in Haiti is comprised of sand. Normally the Dry Internal Angle of Friction (also know as the Angle of Repose) typically has a range of only 25 to 30 degrees, depending on the angularity and internal strength of the sand particles. It gets much lesser and worse when the sand gets wet or even saturated and the pore space between the individual sand particles is full on water molecules. This water acts like a lubricant for the sand and greatly reduces the binding of the angular edges and corners of the sand.....a very unstable soil to build on any hillside. All you have to do is look at the mudslides in southern Calf. to see what happens when sand gets wet. It is basically, flowing quicksand!!!!

Chris, even if you covered the entire hillside with tarps and whatnot, water can leach out of the bedrock in almost any location, be it from pores in the rock, springs and fissures. It's not something you can assume will go away. Usually it doesn't. Most of the worse civil engineering failures the world has even know in the past 2000 to 3000 years alone can be attributed to geotechnical issues, where assumptions were made incorrectly or the designer(s) incorrectly understood the magnitude of water acting on soils and rock. The issue is so difficult to engineer properly that is why some Civil Engineers only specialize in Geotechnical Engineering after years of education, training and professional experience.

The information I am presenting herein is is not to belittle anyone. I'm trying to teach you guys some basic engineering so you don't go down the wrong paths and box yourself into a corner, so to speak. Unfortunately, the old adage that "A little information is dangerous" can be applied here if you don't sit-up, read (and I don't mean between the lines either) and listen. I'm not trying to be a wise-ass, wise-guy or full of myself or "dictate" to y'all here. On the contrary, it is so you will learn some fundamentals of Civil Engineering since most of you aren't a Civil Engineer, nor had the education and training of one:

So, please keep in mind everyone, that the underlying bedrock under Haiti is predominately porous limestone having significant fissures and sinkholes. This type of rock formation is not well suited for building much on whatsoever, let alone especially large lateral loads or vertical loads and the combination thereof.

I hope this helps some....don't hesitate to ask questions.

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#1291
In reply to #1290

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 1:03 PM

Hi CaptMoosie,

very good points. We do have a responsibility to get it right, and I concede to your superior knowledge and experience. My idea was just a first attempt at it, and my soils experience is all from the field, on flat ground, and all we did was compact and put aggregate in. (as well as test with the little nuclear box, which some guy then backed over with his car ) I have not designed or done geo drawings.

but my question to you is.... What do you think would work as a method of installing containers on a hillside? Kyzine talks about putting the 'ass end' into the hill? Do you think that would work? is there ANY answer for trying to stabilize a hill that could mudslide? Perhaps just anchors as previously discussed, and interlocking bunches of them for stability?

Thanks again,

Chris

ps.. very well written responses. nice to read.

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#1292
In reply to #1290

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 1:09 PM

Short and fat trumps tall and skinny...
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#1293
In reply to #1292

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 1:56 PM

Chris,

I think the easiest way to do it would be to scrap-off the overburden soil, then cut terraces into the stone as such: vertical face up 3 containers, then cut-in 10 feet, then vertical face up 3 containers, etc.

Of course you may have to blast the rock terraces or use rock rippers on heavy equipment. I'd use the corner locking mechanisms to tie together the vertical containers. Use will have to provide vertical anchorage pins down into the rock at each corner of the vertical container stack as well as provide structural steel ties horizontally between the terraced stacks. Everything must be tied together.

After all is installed, then you can backfill the excavated sand or whatever soil it was that you previously scraped or excavated off the hillside. Backfill is to be placed between the vertical stone face and the wall of the containers.....provide 4-inch perforated PVC drain pipe in the back corner of the terrace and daylight out between every other container at each terrace level.

Hey, did that guy who backed over the nuclear densitometer actually glow in the dark afterwards? *LOL* Probably like my brother-in-law Pete who works on decommissioning old Nuke plants!

You are also going to have to provide vertical stairwells every so often and these must be tied to the terraced containers....say every 80 or 120 feet horizontally along each terrace.

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#1294
In reply to #1293

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 2:38 PM

great ideas... ga

I was thinking of evacuating the city... distributing a kazillion tons of explosives to turn all the existing rubble into gravel... then bring in really huge bulldozers to grade and flatten the remains... basically like building helical roads in heavy open pit mining.. after the ore has been blasted. then the city could be rebuilt on the compacted substrate. but it is toooo much explosives. not realistic...

but... if you have a city sitting on a fault line.. such a blast might be actually prophylactic to future quakes. It might relieve a bunch of geo stress for a while.

The rebuilding definitely needs some quake-resistant designs and principles - wide avenues, sloped walls (like Cuzco in SA) and lots of triangular uncrushable spaces inside dwellings and quake safety training.. and to have more appropriate equipment on standby for dealing with quakes. EMTs jaws of life, hydraulic equipmts.

What did you think of the sand filter idea. on the basis of "Something is better than nothing" stacked containers of sand could remove 90% of contaminants and be put together in days, instead of years for filtration plants. ??

Chris
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#1297
In reply to #1293

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 3:40 PM

I have noticed in the few pictures of Port-au-Prince I've seen, sloping hillsides with shacks on them.

Then I've seen pictures of flat land and rubble in the Urban fall down zones.

I've done quite a bit more than I ever wanted to of digging by hand, but do know that one man with a shovel and a pick, maddok, an axe, a digging bar and a wheelbarrow, can move an amazing amount of dirt.

For those whose property is on hillsides we probably can give them instructions for foundation prep that could be done with hand tools.

The rules for either mechanized or hand prep are likely to be much the same.

Digging in mud is right hard even for machines, and time is ticking.

Far as the Urban rubble flats, I'd not thought much of explosives, and was more thinking of crushers and bulldozers and wrecking balls, but infact it could well be that expert use of explosives would be faster and cheaper, so I am open to it.

The goal would be to make urban destruction zones possible to build on.

Again our interest in using Shipping Containers has strong advantages, for there may well be rubble areas perfect all ready for placement of a container module, whereas conventional building of any other sort would be impossible.

Sure enough in some cases of conjecture and theory, one must be there to determine the reality, and some theories and practices are site specific.

I am more open to the Thermite explosive conversion methods now, than ever before, for it sounds like it might work faster than even cutting torches.

If it works, and works fast, I'm getting more and more for it.

If I actually get into a competitive mode, then my plan is to do more better, quicker, and less expensively than any of my competition, and stay in business.

Yep, they suffered because they did not have a Building Code.

Can we put together or find, a Building Code For Haiti?

What buildings there did not fall down? What's to be learned from those specific buildings specific to that place?

Those in Cite Soleil, the great slum of Port-au-Prince, ironically were not killed by the earthquake, because they were already living in tents.

No wonder people there keep still asking for tents and could care less if they wear out, since 6 months is a long time in their world.

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#1298
In reply to #1297

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/14/2010 4:23 PM

While I think it controversial as to who built these and when, there is little doubt that they have been standing for many thousands of years, and have withstood quakes without problems. It seems that is what they were designed to do, and whatever ancient intelligent being designed them, they knew what they were doing. These mortarless multiangled stones are still tight, some you can't get a razor blade in the seams.

there are also examples of this at Machu Pichu and Sacsayhuayman, as well as other world sites.

sacsayhuaman (15 foot tall stone - 13 facets visible) who knows how to do this or why it works???

Machu Pichu Mastery

this one just for interest... but how do you say "Safety Railing Anyone?"

I recently read a Quake Safety report that says DO NOT GET UNDER FURNITURE, and it shows statistical deaths of people hiding under furniture versus those hiding BESIDE furniture and other items that create "Triangles of Safety". basicall uncrushable zones. People under the furniture don't do well.. people beside appliances and such.. very well. When a roof comes down, the first thing it does is crush the furniture down to it's minimum triangles.

Therefore, good quake design should include many strong triangles, and residents should be trained to make for those spots on the first shake. Training saves lives.

Chris
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#1330
In reply to #1285

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/15/2010 8:29 AM

Chris

Like the basic idea, but wouldn't attempt it on that sort of slope.

A good assumption in most of the wet tropics is that all hill slopes are close to slipping, so need a good terrace in front of each container before the next one goes in.

Soil pins back into the slope can hold both the containers and the soil.

I enjoy your lateral thinking.
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#1333
In reply to #1285

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/15/2010 4:15 PM

not meaning to dispute anything, I just thought this image captured some more possibilities at some future time when more advanced soil control methods are achievable for hillside construction. I did not make this image. It is beautiful and brilliant if you ask me, as well as a level of rendering I dream of. It should be easy to imagine this as built of containers into a hillside.
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#1335
In reply to #1333

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/15/2010 5:43 PM

Excellent, Chris- absolutely beautiful. But where is the fountain?

As an aside- in this part of the world, hills start sluffing off about half way up, not at the bottom, and not at the top....
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#1340
In reply to #1335

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/15/2010 7:57 PM

in this part of the world, hills start sluffing off about half way up, not at the bottom, and not at the top....

The hill do the same in California too and is why they remove the hilltops...

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#1339
In reply to #1333

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/15/2010 7:50 PM

Suite Sweet!

When cutting into an existing stable slope this would prevail ordinarily as the turf and shrubbery, trees and short retaining walls will hold the soil.

Sweet!

Haiti is no or less prone to quake activity than Oakland, California but some hillsides without plants in Haiti may prohibit wanton indiscriminate use of this example. We should be sure to render as container construction and flash under the eyes of appropriate authorities. One may decide to act the leading example...

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#1347
In reply to #1333

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/15/2010 9:35 PM

Chris, that would be doable as a stage 3 exercise for the more wealthy.

I'd guess the slope at 35°, so each terrace is say 5 or 6 x 20's wide (40'). Each terrace would be overlapped about 900mm and raised 400 mm for the sod cover, so some structural adapting frames would be required.

Fortunately the hill levels off above, so the only concern is the road falling away.

Why stage 3 and wealthy? because stage 1 population density would not have enough outdoor space - or water.

Potable catchment is limited to the inclinator roof area, so you would need to tarp the rest,

Sill there sufficient catchment and shade for the Haitian life style - so you'd be limited to 25% pop density per container, compared to the Rome design.

But good that there is a pool and a small pond, though it might be best to dedicate 1 container per terrace to water storage, in terms of pumping practicality.

Depending on how you did the framing between levels and inclinator tube - I don't think the module is too big in terms of differential movements. I think you would need a pump-out design and so service for the waste side, which is a little way off in Haiti infrastructure development.

But as said - nothing wrong with exploring - and - it could be something out of the Haitian Shipping Container Housing Export brochure.
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#1352
In reply to #1347

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/15/2010 11:06 PM

Sorry, I gave the wrong numbers in the above - 400 x 900 is for ~30° slope.

Staying at 400 for sod and a small step - 35° would take the overlap to 1605mm

400 = ~ 1' 3" (rise). 900 = ~ 3'. 1600 = 5' 3" (run)

Not that a couple of feet less outdoor living is an issue - this is high end indoor living market.

Also forgot to sign - but I guess you guessed.

Kyzine
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#1351
In reply to #1333

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/15/2010 11:01 PM

Chris,

Great idea for hill sections now slipping and devastated see below some coordinates to check out.

Start on the flat lower ground with a double wide end into the hill and overlap by 50% and keep going up say six high and use your idea of a sloped container with slats nailed into the floor as a set of steps stairs...cut access holes at each level and use top level as a garden with a series of containers maybe aligned with the top of the Hill as shops/market stores, about 35 feet back from front edge....with a raised bed type garden and a 10 foot walk way. Then leaves 25 foot garden strip and make beds 25 feet x 6 feet wide x 3 feet high bed boxes.

Arrange witha gap of 6-8 feet between each set with double wides set either side of stairs, allows movement within hill and/or slumping within hill structures. Cover with deep rooted ground cover of grasses and shrubs down center.

Could work easily in the hill shanty town areas south west of the city near Rte 101 and on GOOGLE EARTH at 18* 30' 26.70" N by 72* 16' 27.64" W and you will find a good example of how your idea could be incorporated from the bottom up.

let us know if you feel this is a good area for consideration?

Geoff Daly NH

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#1356
In reply to #1351

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/16/2010 12:28 AM

Hi Geoff,

here is what I found at those coordinates. (center image is top of hill, north us up)

I realize that this is a reasonable candidate for replacement with containers. (if the earth is stable)

However... as time is of the essence, I would suggest that we simply try to get containers on the ground. Even unmodified, they can be used as emergency shelter in hurricanes and downpours when heat is not an issue. Nearby is a site that appears to be a camp (see image)... I hope that containers could be simply trucked into a site like this and it would be apparent with little explanation that this is the stormshelter. All we need to do for hurricanes is lock them together in groups of 48 or so, and the weight will provide a reasonable counter opponent to the lifting forces, especially filled with people. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Perhaps contacting Maersk would help?

...

now.. as to your questions and the future. For the site you selected, I think it would work fairly well, although the gully looks as though it gets quite a bit of water, thus the lack of vegetation.. flash flood zone? that would be concern.. but might also be a place to put 'container as storm drain' system.

As has been pointed out, stability is entirely geology dependent, and that must be addressed first.. that means probing the ground to determine soil depth, type of bedrock, and soil moisture content (aquifer) at different times of the year.

If moisture is an issue, and money is available, the water levels can be lowered, just like they do at mine sites, et al (dewatering)

I'm not a geologist, so that will have to be left to the experts, to avoid future catastrophes... my drawings were assuming that we could have a workable soil situation, and start off with something like this, anc compact and firm up the terraces, and provide hundreds of long ground anchors/stakes/screws/pilings to make it work. After that, containers are linked, braced, bracketed together and plumbed. I really like the idea of green-roof/hanging gardens, and it would be a boon to people living on those hillsides in decrepit shanties... but I'm getting distraught about getting some containers there at all.

I'll try to put together an sample design for a hillside like the one you point out.. tomorrow.

Chris
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#1358
In reply to #1356

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/16/2010 1:01 AM

Aeronautical, topographic, and other maps of Haiti produced by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency.
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#1361
In reply to #1358

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/16/2010 5:20 PM

Thank you Sue

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#1360
In reply to #1351

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/16/2010 4:11 PM

All,

I've had this idea sneak into my brain overnight... (drawing not to scale)


I think I have found a good solution for installing hillside containers with some assurance of longevity in wet environments.

Last year I worked for an engineering company from Oakville Ontario (Ancam Solutions Inc.) and they have a specialty in ski hill safety and equipment engineering. At any rate, they installed a cable tow system, and planted engineering towers at the top and bottom of the hill (at bedrock level) in order to mount the giant pulleys like a clothesline. The cable and fittings should be able to resist the environmental effects (rust, salt, etc)

My idea is to dig to bedrock in the top of the hill, and strongly attach a post mount at that point. Thre would be 4 cables for each 'stack' of containers, connecting to 4 containers, and if tare of a 40' container is 8000 lbs, and each has a full load capacity of say 2000 lbs (people and belongings), then each stack weighs 40,000 lbs. If the hill slides, and produces a shock load of triple the mass, then the cables need to withstand 120,000 lbs in total, then divide by 4 or 6, depending on how many are put in. so that would make shock loading of each cable 30,000 lbs. (just my guess.. remember I'm not an engineer, just a tech)

The terraces can be compacted and aggregated as before, and containers installed, and then soiled over for green roofs. Also overhanging lattices can be put on top of container roofs and these work great for climbing vines, which make a green awning. I haven't shown any connection details to the containers, but feel that is not an engineering issue for this concept. I do think that locking the containers together at other points of connection is still a good idea. I've also shown the containers in the long axis (a$$ in DrK. )

Of course this all is phase 2 or 3 but it would remove a lot of the worries about mudslides in a quake zone. (maybe)

and..last minute thought... once the post is installed in the top of the hill, it can be used to hoist containers and equipement up the hill.. (maybe a future cable car too eh? for the lazy amongst us. )

I'm very interested in what you all think about this.

Chris
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#1362
In reply to #1360

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/16/2010 5:41 PM

I just remembered the other component to this idea.... Weeping Tile Containers..

When installing these hillside complexes, where containers are put together in stacks as shown previously, every so often, there needs to be a system that helps keep the aquifer low... One solution is to bury (and restrain with cables) a container based weeping tile system, with holes torched in the lower sides of the containers. Depending on the amount of water, this could double as cleated ramps as Geoff identified...

Chris
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#1363
In reply to #1360

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/16/2010 6:47 PM

Good idea, Chris- except there may not be any bedrock under the hill...
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#1364
In reply to #1360

Re: Shipping Container Housing

03/17/2010 3:40 AM

According to the geologic reports of the areas in question it is limestone formation below not bedrock. I think we're over thinking this quite a bit, Haiti does often have quakes but mainly much less of the Richter scale. In the case of liquefaction etc. very little can be feasibly done to prepare in these instances in regards to the project at hand. Shave the hilltop off an make a catchment, do the cut-bank style pads or pier and anchor and get people inside. But may we be simple and use the topography to great advantage.

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#373

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 9:51 PM

Guys,

Seems you have all done a great job over the past days.

Got a call from USAID, someone somewhere has pushed them to start taking an interest in our postings/ideas.

Maybe the Whitehouse, due to my email comments about 200,000 tents, $47 million dollars and next months Hurricane/rainseason wiping out or severall damaging these 200,000 tents...was a set of prenotes for tomorrows meeting with the Whitehouse staff I had to send today.

Michael McShane (Chief Liasion Officer for the USAID Haiti operation), called and needed to speak with me and obtain more information of the communities ideas for the use of containers for housing. I was out when he called and was to late to call him back..he has a message that he should call early tomorrow.

Also spoke with Dick Strawbridge (of Planet Mechanics) who did the episode last November with the U of Liverpool in building student housing using 2 x 40 foot and 1 x 20 footer in there parking lot..6 days to complet all work. (episode is still on Discovery Channel under planet mechanics-planet earth). He is a great practical person with great experience and ideas.

He mentioned a rather good idea to add to Chris188 idea of the tall chimney vent to get draft movment. Then take 2 liter soda bottles and fill with water...cut a hole is sections of the roof and place through half way and seal with some RTV....acts as a light tube during the daylight (did this on a project in Brazil), cut need for windows. They also put some soil on top to keep heat out and whiteash painted the soil (mixed with some cement to bind)

Dick is ready and willing to lend his experince and TV coverage to encourage the authorities. He said they would be real morons not to lsiten to all the good stuff everyone has contributed. We spoke for about one hour and would also like a link to CR4....Chris Leonard: can you arrange to let me know how Dick Strawbridge can do this?

He is also going to be contacted by the Whitehouse as needed.

Any one who would like to speak with Dick Strawbridge email me and I will give his info.

Geoff Daly NH

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#375
In reply to #373

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/01/2010 11:25 PM

Hi Geoff,

Great work, and glad to have you and others working so hard at this.

As to guidance, my first thought is that we are all best guided by reality, and therefore, I (and hopefully all of us) could really benefit by knowing more about the situation on site, and from hearing from people there who are trying to address the housing realities in Haiti. Perhaps you could recommend that those participants visit this thread on CR4 and share their knowledge and awareness. The CR4 staff have shown a willingness to help out when or if things become unwieldy. (thank you CR4)

I think that we need to hear from Haitian people about their needs and their realities. We need to know what lifting equipment, and heavy transport is available. We need to know about the political issues that may hinder implementation of these ideas.

At this point, all ideas are 'wonderful', but only reality will tell us what is practical and useful to the people who may have to live in them, in the heat and hurricanes, trying to feed families and heal the sick and wounded, and rebuild a life. How many people can live in a shipping container comfortably? Do they need shipping containers or quonsets for nuclear families? I don't know. It is better we ask than assume.

I think that the attention from USAID is important, but it needs to be more of an iterative dialog than a package presentation, in my humble opinion. That way, we can provide more value, and have it last longer. Obviously there are a lot of people who care, and want to contribute effectively in the way that they can. Solid engineering savoir-faire is very important in the building trades, and there is a lot of bright people here with something to offer. For the most part that is why they participate in CR4; to help others.

As you pointed out about the tents, it is important for the dollars spent to provide as much value as possible, not only to relieve the immediate needs, but also to support the ongoing efforts to rebuilt the Haitian nation with dignity. With Tents, they will fail and become a 47 million dollar burden at some point. Used shipping containers converted to living quarters is much more of a win-win scenario, as they will last at least 10 years, if not 20, and even then can still have recyclable uses. This supports the future and the present. (as the shipping containers exist already, and need only be converted and transported to site. Tents have to be manufactured presumeably, then transported and erected.)

Also as I presented earlier, I think the use of shipping containers to develop marketplaces for the largely agricultural society would have really positive and formative effect on that culture, giving it more prominence, security and integrity than it had before. It will give that half of the population a greater sense of pride in their business dealings, and actually promote more business. With business opportunities come enterprise and hope.

Lastly, I would want as much of the infrastructure for the modification of shipping containers as possible to be transferred and taught to the Haitians. Teach a man to fish, etc. I think that this can be a new industry for them, and a good portion of the population who might now be out of work can actively contribute to rebuilding their civilization by working in this 'trade'. They can't do nearly as much with tents.

If I think of more, I will post again.

Good work!

Chris
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#376
In reply to #375

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 12:03 AM

Well said...we must not just clean it up and then depart.

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#377
In reply to #375

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 12:45 AM

GA Chris, where "A" = spot-on mission statement

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#378

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 6:56 AM

One big advantage of modified containers is that they are earthquake proof.

Can't find the reference now but apparently there is a high probability of another earthquake in Haiti, 5 or 6 magnitude, within a month.

Anchors for containers. A 15"wheel buried 6' deep and back filled with compacted earth (bulk s.g about 1.5) has a pull out force of about 12,000 lb.

Based on 145mph winds, need 8 anchors (4/side) to resist overturning. To resist sideways shear forces need total of 6 anchors.

My calcs need checking as I have got out of the habit of using imperial units, so my conversions may be shaky.

This avoids needing concrete or anything apart from some fairly serious digging.

Of course if a backhoe or bobcat with an auger are available this becomes a quick and simple operation.

Using pipe rollers and some manpower, the containers can be put into virtually any position.

On slopes, need to put in pipe supports fastened to the buried wheel and either a crane (or improvise with a front end loader) or some temporary bracing of supports then "skid" into position by means of manpower. Remove temporary bracing and use on the next container.

The container would be fastened to the supports/tie downs either using the existing tie down provisions of the container or by welding. Welding would make it unnecessary to provide lateral bracing, whereas fastening to the existing tie downs would mean bracing between supports would be needed on sloping sites.

Access to the container would then be via the uphill side, making steps unnecessary.

The whole project seems doable with mainly unskilled labor (although welders would be needed, but these men could go from site to site and get through a lot of work in a day if the project is organized to minimize their non productive time).

To cut out windows, plasma or oxy cutting would be best, but grinders or even hammer and cold chisel can also be used. The sheet cut out can then be modified to form a shutter over the space opened up. Best if hinges are provided, but they can also be improvised from scrap.

Best if they use a frame above and mount a corrugated iron roof over the top to prevent it becoming a hot box and further assist waterproofing. Some of this could be scavenged from existing demolished buildings, but probably a lot would need to be brought in.

I'm not sure of the feasibility of a sod roof. It would need a good grass cover to stand up to tropical downpours and may not be a proposition. If it is feasible, it can further reduce the need for imported materials and allow the locals to help themselves.

Would thatch stand up to local conditions? The Fijians use it based on coconut fronds. Would the requisite skills be available locally? There should be suitable material available, at least out in the country.

(It needs to be remembered that we are not just looking at the cities, the country people also need help to rebuild).

If containers are mounted on their supports to be visually level but with a small inclination, water will drain off the top instead of pooling at local low points, further helping to avoid leaks.

This would provide permanent, earthquake proof, hurricane proof and burglar proof housing at a fairly low cost and predominantly uses the materials and skills available to the locals (once the containers are provided).
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#393
In reply to #378

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 12:12 PM

GA
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#396
In reply to #393

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 12:40 PM

I haven't seen it mentioned and I'm not having thought about the resource of electric power and water purification provided by ships.

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#406
In reply to #396

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 8:06 PM

Actually, earlier in the discussion, Transcendian brought up the idea of water supply from ships- talking about mothballed US naval vessels. An old US aircraft carrier would provide lots of emergency housing, water, power, ready-made medical facilities, command and communications facilities, etc. The old Forestal class carried crews of 5000 plus 80 or so aircraft- lots of facilities...But, who would pay to operate it?

Another idea, unrelated to housing, but related to disaster recovery, the Russians have been working on a floating nuclear electrical power plant for use in this sort of emergency. I do not know the status of that project currently, however...
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#407
In reply to #406

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 8:46 PM

Charlie,

your idea to use a NP system, as the Russians are looking too place on a barge type structure is a power plant from one of there soon to be decommissioned subs is a good idea for such disasters.

The US Navy are looking to decommission two very old NP subs...orig Polaris ones and plan to decomission in year or two. NH Portsmouth dock yard is undergoing big upgrades to do some decommissioning in 2012.

Maybe someone should look at using a modified one to supply onshore electrical power in a disaster and we are going to see more in the future...they generate in excess of 64,000 HP under full load. Use the missile tube deck area for cables etc and transformer distribution use like a mini substation.

Not hard to run as a power station, its got all the needed stuff and runs for 8 to10 years between refuelings.

Charlie, GA for such a use of an NP plant.

Geoff Daly NH

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#412
In reply to #407

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 11:08 PM

Was looking for a report of your meeting. It's alright if it didn't turn out well. I've got failures galore. Give it to us straight: What Happened?

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#411
In reply to #406

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 10:58 PM

The Aircraft Carrier Carl Vinson was on station there for about a week and a half, supplying water and supporting helicopters. It pulled out yesterday. It left some 11 helicopters I think.

Primarily we here have been discussing shipping containers, but ships do have great value as well. Even the worst of them have standby aux generators that are and will be important for power supply of things like welding machines.

DOD US is very tight now with info concerning some of these ships.

Many commercially owned and operated are available for sale, at very reasonable prices.

Ships do come with quite a bit of their own infrastructure, and Port-au-Prince is a deepwater port that will allow for them to get in close.

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#418
In reply to #411

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/03/2010 2:55 AM

Some background notes of the delayed relief ship issues... http://newwars.wordpress.com/2010/01/14/300-ship-navy-falters-in-haiti-relief/

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#379

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 8:01 AM

Is it possible that this thread has attracted more 'good answers' than any other (<50)?

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#380

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 9:03 AM

Good Day All:

Some great ideas and thoughts have popped-up in the past 24 hours. Kudos everyone!

Let's hope and pray that Geoff Daly's meeting today with President Obama's Senior Staff Member goes wells, and that terrific progress is made regarding the use of shipping containers for Hurricane Shelters then permanent shelters on Haiti. With any luck the President's staff will be able to access the CR4 Forum and read this Blog!

Regarding how to cut holes into the steel walls and/or roofs (for various purposes): Since most shipping containers are fabricated with CORTEN steel (a high strength steel, weathering), it'd be best to use gas torches and/or plasma torches (preferably above 50 Amp), although you can use a 11 Amp circular saw equipped with a 7 1/4" diameter Dewatt or Norton Abrasive cutting blade as well. I routinely cut 3/8" and 1/2" thick ASTM A36 structural steel plate for use in my "projects" in my garage using a 50 Amp (230 VAC service) plasma torch with ease, but sometimes I do use the circular saw for the shorter cuts. So, either method can be done, but in Haiti you'll need portable gas operated AC/DC generator sets to produce the power needed by either piece of equipment, and power doesn't grow on trees guys.....and the last I heard there's a very little amount of trees let standing in Haiti.

You have to keep in mind too that CORTEN steel is a much tougher steel to cut through than A36 plate, so it's going to take longer to make any cut, especially round tight radius ones, plus you'll be using up consumables like the plasma torch tips & electrodes or the circular saw blades at a more terrific rate. And if the plasma torch operator isn't especially well versed in the use of that type of torch you'll be eating up the electrodes and tips at a very high clip. Please note too that plasma torch consumables are extremely expensive.....a set of 6 tips and 6 electrodes will cost you in excess of over $100 USD even on Ebay...and they MUST MATCH your machine and its torch perfectly! And forget the cheap Chinese tips and electrodes as they're nothing but junk....Afterall, you get what you pay for!!!

On the other hand, a Dewalt or Norton 7 1/4" metal cutting abrasive blade will cost you slightly over $4 USD at Lowe's' stateside. To me, the saw blades are the way to go as long as there is an electrical power source available that doesn't get stolen at gun point or overnight by some thugs. BTW, US Army Engineers are equipped with lots and lots of electrical generator sets and they're easily transported!!!!!

Also, have to talk about compatibility of power sources there in Haiti versus American supplied power equipment. Does anyone know what the AC electrical system is like in Haiti? Most likely it is different from the USA (120 VAC and 60 Hz). Any power tools left in Haiti may be running on 50 Hz and ??? Volts VAC? Therefore, any generator sets coming from the USA or elsewhere must comply with the Haitian electrical grid requirements as far as voltage and Frequency are concerned.

Any EE's out there know the answers to this dilemma?

Adding a few more Cents into the pot!

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#381
In reply to #380

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 9:17 AM

Capt, Swapping the concrete-cut blade out of a petrol (gas) 2 stroke Stihl (or any other brand for that matter) for a blade from a dropsaw works too. No generator needed. Although it DOES take some holding onto. A slightly built person would have difficulty. We use such a device as emergency cutting tools on unpowered sites. The team is mostly big guys though. Saving grace is that in the initial instance, first fix period, not a lot of cutting will be needed. Stu.

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#382

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 10:12 AM

Stuey, GA re the gas-powered saw. I did think about them as I've seen them used on the jobsite to cut everything from rebar to concrete to all sorts of pipe. And yes, you need to be a "Moose" to operate one or it'll get away from you in no time flat! *LOL*

I don't see, however, how one would use that type saw to cut small diameter holes in the steel for soda pop bottle lights?????? Possible use a hole-cutting saw blade on a good-sized hammer drill (11 or 12 Amps or above?) that is made of Tungsten steel and has industrial diamonds on the blades????

Just another option.......

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#383
In reply to #382

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 10:35 AM

I recall drilling a hole then placing a die cutter top and bottom with a bolt for tightening to cut holes in metal sheet. Don't recall what the name is though.

or a portable mill with mag base and a fly-cutter head

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#385
In reply to #382

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 11:13 AM

Best to stick with oxy propane cutting for anything round. Easy enough to make a fixed diameter compass rig out of a few bits of pipe. A flycutter on the corrugated surfaces of the containers is gonna be difficult to run & hard on the equipment [Mag drill]

Cutting holes in the roof is not a good idea with rainfall totals in the 100's of Cm's. There is no reason all the holes can't be in the sides.

I saw a container with a couple of these vents mounted on elbows, coming out of the side wall on a container being used for hazardous material storage at a medical center.
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#388
In reply to #385

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 11:40 AM

The flats of the corrugated surfaces are wide enough for a Mag drill mount with fly-cutter, a one liter plastic bottle will let light in on the sides also.

Do ya think most of us have any real idea of the conditions many Haitians deal with during normal times?

Good idea the circulators but will the elbows remain in high winds?

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#391
In reply to #388

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 11:57 AM

You would want to get the wirrly gig 10-12 feet up & use some guy wires as Chris288 suggested
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#392
In reply to #391

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 12:06 PM

I doubt that set up would prevail in high wind conditions with the trash blowing in it but it would act a dandy lightening rod

The circulators don't need be high and if they become dented by flying debris they won't spin.

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#384

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 10:53 AM

Evolution portable steel cutting circular saws may cut short the time of openings in the containers.

Hougen Magnetic drill

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#394
In reply to #384

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 12:18 PM

It's not going to be possible [or fun] to run a 5 inch flycutter at 450 rpm on even mild steel. The cutter is going to melt

The picture you posted doesn't look like it will run a anything much bigger than 2inches

The saws are big fun, hand out lots of earplugs [my tinnitus kicked in just thinking about it].

As are the gas powered cut off saws, cuts about the same or more fpm as a torch
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#395
In reply to #394

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 12:36 PM

1 liter bottle = 2 1/2" use a holesaw or end mill or a huge step drill

I can't imagine the logistics to support a million cutting torches at Haiti

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#399
In reply to #395

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 1:06 PM

Have you ever used a mag drill?

Stepdrills are commonly 1"

A 2 1/2" holesaw won't last long at 450rpm on hard steel...

2 1/2" end mill would almost have to be a shell cutter, which is gonna drag a mag drill all over

A cutting rig is much more common & cheaper than a mag drill & the tooling to go with it.

A plasma is nice, but as CM points out the consumables cost real money, as does the whole unit.
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#400
In reply to #399

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 2:26 PM

Okay now I understand, I only posted one example as there are many models with Quill speeds from 120 rpm to 750 rpm respectively.

Yes I have used a Mag base drill on many occasions maybe more often than some because I don't carry enough weight to easily use other drill motors

And I'd rather don ear protection and use carbon arc/cutting eliminating much of the use of gases.

about 800 amps and 1/4" carbon rod to blow a 2.5" hole in 1" plate without removing the paint

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#401
In reply to #400

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 3:16 PM

Bwire,

My plasma cutter only needs compressed air to operate w/ air pressure no less than 60 psig...prefer to use 90 psig. No other forms of gas are needed such as Argon, etc. It'll cut through CORTEN with no problemo. Know this because I have cut-up some of the scrap pieces that I have here whicht I'm using in my up and coming 2-story steel tool shed...

Always wanted a carbon arc cutting machine. Tell me, how do you truly like it????? This is 'Off-topic" for sure...........LOL

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#402
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 3:43 PM

Captn,

this would probably be best for another discussion, but is there a cheap way to jury rig a plasma cutter for a 3rd world country like Haiti, would an arc welder and an air compressor work?

Spacecannon

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#404
In reply to #402

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 4:32 PM

A welder + aircompressor = CAC carbon arc cutting

Let the Weld Guru guide you through the world of CAC, Carbon Arc Cutting

http://www.weldguru.com/CAC.html

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#403
In reply to #401

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 4:26 PM

I like it fine, and the electrodes are less expense. Compressed air is what is used without other gases yes and 90 psig is adequate for most CAC-carbon arc cutting. The process is quite noisy; like a Gatling gun, though of finer control than oxy/acetylene and the near areas of cut are not super heated either. The edges are not as smooth as your plasma though.

An inverter power source is best but I use a arc welder now when needed, if a heavier current I can set units in tandem too.

I suppose if having inexperienced operators I'd prefer CAC because of less expense of electrodes and electrical power is so useful compared to gas.

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#408
In reply to #400

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 9:31 PM

Bwire,

there are newer hole cutting tools available from Norton/Saint-Gobain (non-catalogue orders) using a combination of carbide and diamond dust impregnated together on the tips of the hole cutter edge and on the inner and outer faces. Good for cutting steel and SS up to 11/2" thick, we use these for large reactor repairs and piping holes.....on Corten container material good for about 1,000 holes with a little soap lubricant (no sparks)....sizes from 1/4 to 12" diameter..we have a 3 HP VFD Milwaukee double clamp mag drill Can use an 8" hole cutter...works well and is nearly 8 years old and still OK.

Cost 8 years ago was $975.00 a single pillar mag drill for holes upto 6" is $565.00 and runs on either 115 or 220 volt single phase 50/60 HZ power.

Geoff Daly NH

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#417
In reply to #408

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/03/2010 2:33 AM

A good tool thanks for the update, anytime you can prevent super heating painted surfaces in corrosive environments you are ahead of the game. Thinking of drilling corner radius and start/stops for abrasive saw cutting etc.. Use of cutting torches seems counter productive at times.

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#419
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Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/03/2010 3:36 AM

A crude way to cut openings, especially holes, is to mark the opening required, then drill small, close spaced holes along the edge of the required opening.

When drilling is finished, break out the intervening metal with hammer and cold chisel.

Crude, rough finish but any of the locals can do it provided they have access to a drill and power to run it.

I wouldn't fancy trying it with a hand drill!
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#420
In reply to #419

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/03/2010 3:51 AM

Here is what I was thinking of Greenlee 738BB slugbuster, something simple to keep the unskilled busy ventilating containers.

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#421
In reply to #420

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/03/2010 3:59 AM

You'll need a three-foot spanner (wrench, sorry!) to cut an 8inch hole with one of those.. Stu.

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#422
In reply to #421

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/03/2010 4:15 AM

What 8" hole? 2 1/2" holes ventilate too.

A torque multiplier makes quick work of either...

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#485
In reply to #422

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/05/2010 8:47 AM

you need a 3/4" hole or more to use a 2 1/2" knock out

your gonna need a 3 foot cheater bar to run that $100 [more] knock out.

knocking holes in 1mm thick mild steel electrical panels is a far cry from 2mm [or more] container steel
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#427
In reply to #421

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/03/2010 9:20 AM

Also comes with a hydraulic driver for the tough jobs...
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#397
In reply to #394

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 12:49 PM

GA Garthh

Gentlemen, it's not mild steel either. It's quite tough stuff.

Ventilating a container flattish on the ground - as opposed to buried arse first into a hill - is commonly done by cutting flaps in the top of end wall and folding them out.

Usually about 8" high and 2'6" long - folded to 45 degrees

Light gets in - rain and thieves don't.

Hinges are an option.

Normally it's oxy (and a small grinder to get rid of the paint), but a big grinder will do if the operator can keep a straight line in corrugated material and the skill to do the half cuts to let it bend.

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#398
In reply to #397

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 1:04 PM

Okay then with a saw some cutting would need be done inside as well as outside but electric power shouldn't be a problem there in the port area having ship to shore power available though maitaining an adequate supply of gas only maybe tough.

I'd thought having the mag base drill an advantage having used both with and w/o

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#415
In reply to #398

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/03/2010 12:43 AM

Gas and fuel for generators are both issues - fuel may be a bigger rationing, theft, gun-point, ....? than gas - who knows - think either/or - I'd say.

Looking at the logistics, the containers are at a port. Supplies and military presence could be assumed? Doing whatever mods and dispatch may be best done there, but it's going to be with what you can beg/borrow/steal.

Shaped charges perhaps?

Thermite for those bottle skylights or big chimney holes? It's easy to make from work shop filings. (but I still think cutting the roof is 'to be avoided')

Ref Mag-drill - great device - but the cutters cost a fortune and do break on hard spots found in RSJ and the like.

But, at this point in the Haiti context, think mods at port, and include anything ships conventionally carry (oxy) and the toys military cart about.

It's not like we are going to be 'first in' on this one.

But still think primitive to site and on site.

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#386

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 11:16 AM

Hey bwire! Great idea, but I wonder how much one of these saws costs even wholesale???

Don't get me wrong, they're terrific and I WANT ONE!!!! *LOL*

I have a one of those Dual-cutting saws that's sold at Sears (not the junky one sold on TV and pitched by Billy Mays). It'll cut through steel like a hot knife cuts through butter....lllllooooovvvveeeeee it!!!! Of course you can find one in the stores and they're always back-ordered in Sears online shopping. After my Sears Craftsman membership discount and a Sears Coupon Code credit, I got mine for under $85 USD....normally they retail for around $139 or so at Sears. IF YOU CAN FIND ONE...they fly off the store selves faster than Jimmy Cricket!!!....it's a fun saw to use, but make sure you wear Kevlar knitted gloves because of the scalpel sharp cut edges. Basically, you need to have first practised with the saw on thinner steel sections as it can be "hairy" sometimes and get away from you, especially if you're doing a "plunge cut"....practice makes perfect I warn!

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#389
In reply to #386

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 11:49 AM

EVOLUTION 9" PORTABLE SAW

Light – portable suitable for cutting 1/2" steel plate

9" blade – cuts 2" angle / tube / pipe / bar grating

Includes blade

Regular Price $395

Oceans Price $350 **What price for 1/4" model I don't know

SAVE $45

Plus *FREE Freight

* Free freight available in FL only

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#390
In reply to #386

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 11:50 AM

I got mine for under $85 USD....normally they retail for around $139 or so at Sears.

They're about £60 in the UK.

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#387

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 11:37 AM

Garthh, I have to agree with 100% about not putting holes in the roofs of the containers for whatever reason.....sort of defeats the purpose of having a weather-tight membrane (ie, roof) over your head in that climate and very high annual rainfall. You'd have to cut nearly perfect round holes of the CORRECT diameter to make the soda pop bottle skylights work effectively and seal them very well inside and out....something not many people are good at.....that is, cutting perfectly round hole in steel corrugated plate. I don't think many skilled machinists could even pull that one off in a steel fabrication shop with a roof over their heads, let alone being stuck out in the open under the very hot tropical sun's rays while experiencing nearly 100% relative humidity!!!!

I agree that the holes must be cut into the side walls! Just an hour ago I brought up this same point to Geoff Daly in an email between us where I proposed exactly the same idea that you did in the Blog postings!

GA to you!!!!!!!!!1

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#409
In reply to #387

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 9:39 PM

Not wild myself about cutting holes in the roof, but there is a way to do it. Rough and ready cut the hole and then lay into it an assembly of the tube parts that have been flange fabricated and sealed.

Then seal with appropriate tar, or silicone, or even weld if the drop in is made of metal.

As said, not wild about cutting holes in the roof, but it is not an uncommon thing to do, and I have participated in retro fitting homes with skylights of both designs.

Typically for wooden framed homes a good amount of work is involved and flashing, and then the roofers have to lay over the shingles correctly.

Even when putting in windows you have a rough opening and then have to shim in the window.

If doing such stuff, actually glass bottles would be my material of choice, since plastic does degrade right quickly if exposed to heat and sunlight.

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#405

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 7:54 PM

Waiting on report from Mr. Daly.

CW supplied condensed version of ongoing think tank thread.

Red Cross personnel reported to have visited CR4, and been impressed.

Had a fairly lengthy conversation with Martha Skinner at Clemson U.

She speaks French. This is good and very important. Suggested she get on Signal One the important Radio in Port-au-Prince, and explain the options to the Haitian People.

Wrote summation of actions and ideas forwarded to Red Cross VP of Haitian Disaster Group.

Same summation forwarded to Dick Strawbridge, who is interested in link from CR4.

That event came about after I got a phone call.

On Twitter I have posted a few notes.

I would post to the site the email I composed for the interested people at Clemson U, and at the Red Cross, but don't really know how.

Summation is rehash of Headquarters at the port.

Modification crew both there and mobile based there.

Foundation Prep Crew.

Transportation Crew.

Installation Crew.

I've also worked to address legal issues, and property rights issues.

In light of CWs suggestions concerning relocating some of the city to outlying areas, I've proposed land swaps, so if it turns that property owners land outlying is desirable in light of time, they may get urban land that is now best to bypass prior to clearing.

Working on Micro Infrastructure Systems to go along with the designs.

The 55 gallon drum systems for food production, and water have since the first been important to why I have reached towards the Clemson U. operations.

Latrine gas systems need standardization to complete the Micro Infrastructure System.

Further as far as Micro Food Plot production I am aware that stacked tires filled with dirt will grow a good number of potatoes. The Irish know potatoes will keep you alive, and beer and whiskey keep you happy.

P.S. I myself was very grateful to Chris Leonard for putting up the announcement on the homepage concerning this work for as long as he and the administration did. It made a significant difference. Visitors to our little forum have apparently used it for ready access to the work. It is no small thing that CL and the CR4 administration have again put up the announcement.

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#410

Re: Shipping Container Housing

02/02/2010 9:45 PM

I am really amazed at what can be done just on a forum, the way people come together to create a think tank, with everyone contributing a small peice to the puzzel a solution can be promoted that is workable, cause so many helped to find the flaws and fix them. I normally see so much pecking at each other on a lot of forums that have political/social ideas, but we have all been able to get along and it has been truley nice.

Thx to everyone,... I must go,... write a grant.

Spacecannon

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#413

A letter regarding Shipping Container Housing to the Red Cross

02/02/2010 11:42 PM

As written by Transcendian

To: Ms. Cheryl Sarcy VP Secretary of Red Cross Haiti Disaster Group202-256-3765
Dear Ms. Sarcy, I have been involved in the think tank discussions of CR4 concerning the viability of Shipping Container Housing for Haiti. Mr. Geoff Daly suggested I open lines of communication with you concerning this project. Mr. Daly said that you had looked at the thread. Herein I will simply try to create for you a short summary of salient issues.One is that while the use of Shipping Containers is a fairly mature practice and industry many in your orbits are not apparently aware of it as an option.It is also apparent that the shipping container conversion industry is concerned that they will not get paid, as those who are selling tents are, and therefore seem to have taken a hands off approach to the disaster in Haiti. For either unmodified, or modified containers this issue does need to be addressed as we move forward to properly utilize this resource. I brought this issue up with both the members of CR4 within the think tank, and have also brought it up this day in a conversation with Martha Skinner of Clemson University whose designs for Shipping Container Housing are important due to the inclusion of 55 gallon drum designs addressing needs for water and food. I have suggested that the methods developed for methane gas generation also using 55 gallon drums be included in what I am calling Micro Infrastructure Systems, for it is reported there is very little infrastructure in place in Haiti. I and we, have also recommended that the shipping containers be used in conjunction with the tents, but do recognize that whereas one would not feel it necessary to give a Deed when handing out a tent, this is called for when placing something as sturdy as either an unmodified, or modified for living shipping container.I for one recognize that in Haiti, any structure at all is preferable to the working classes of Haiti for such things help maintain their claim to their little plot of land, certainly in what appears to be a very tenuous system of property law.Any attorneys you may have on your staff capable of influencing some of these issues will go far to benefit the improvement of the situation in Haiti. Throughout the think tank discussion on CR4 it has from the first been recognized that the issue of utilizing the Shipping Containers, is married to the issue of moving them over land. It was finally decided that while there are properly designed mechanisms designed for either port operations, or otherwise, either in the hands of the US military, or commercial businesses, they are hardy enough to be simply drug around using tractors, trucks and whatnot. We are not in a position to allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good enough. We are suggesting further that the specific tasks necessary to utilize the valuable resource that the Shipping Containers represent be logically formed into crews. A Foundation Preparation Crew is called for. A Transportation and Installation Crew is called for. A Modification Crew is called for. A Headquarters that determines how and whom and where to allocate these containers, either modified or unmodified needs as well to be established. It would most sensibly be established at the Port. While for fairness in allocation of the containers for shelter a lot system has been proposed within the thread, by Mr. Daly, I have suggested that while that is on the face of it fair, it could create bottlenecks and recommend that it be utilized according to Zones, so as to avoid difficulties logistically.[p] Mr. Charlie Warner who generated the edit of the think tank discussion suggested further that it may be well sensible to move some of the City of Port-au-Prince away from its traditional borders. Some of the collapsed buildings will take significant time to be correctly dismantled so that rebuilding may proceed. Concentrations of efforts there now may use up time better used elsewhere. Some land swaps may well need to be arranged, for typically somebody has ownership and claims of one sort or another to land, so it may be necessary for land that is suitable for the installation of Shipping Container Housing now, be traded for land that due to rubble be traded so resistance to the operation is obviated as much as possible. These here are my thoughts, which were not arrived at alone, but in conjunction with the members of our little group of correspondents and generally a political bunch of engineers, and thinkers. Typically we simply just hang out and help each other solve problems, and this is the first time we have been compelled to attempt to influence much outside of our little fun world. We do hope our contributions in this case will aid those in need.
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