What is Curiosity?

"Early on we are curious about ourselves"

ooh... there is a good one... part of a bootstrap self learning process.. all subsequent knowledge relates to self. (and mom, etc.) and the initial sensory data.

parenting stuff... another endless debate.

Chris

Chris... this is a very interesting subject. Yet one more example of what a great resource CR4 is to us all.

I have read this thread from top to bottom several times and have been thinking on what I might contribute to it. I have pondered this question off and on since first reading the thread.

May I say...

Human kind are essentially a lazy lot. We would much more be doing things that we enjoy, no matter what those things may be, then working at a task, no matter how important, that we find to be tedious and boring.

In our early days as a species, survival dictated that we do three or four things...

1) Provide food.

2) Provide shelter.

3) Stop someone else from taking our food and shelter.

and

4) Make babies to provide a way to get the other three things when we were no longer able to do so ourselves.

When the work was done, we were now able to do the things that we really wanted to do. I think it is not much of a stretch to suggest that most of human progress can be viewed as us trying to find ways to get the first three items out of the way so we can concentrate on item 4 and other pleasurable diversions.

Over time... we came to look at a drive to make our lives easier (you have to ask if that is truly what we have done in some instances) as the natural order of things and gave it a name and that name is curiosity.

As our species evolved and grew in intellect, the focus of that curiosity grew alongside our technical skill sets.

I put it to the group... the reason behind curiosity is to... essentially make our lives easier so we can all go and play.

Comments?

to get the first three items out of the way so we can concentrate on item 4...

guilty as charged.

but I think animals have curiosity too... gets them into trouble... like cats are sometimes curious. (I know..curiosity killed the kat)

Criss you linked the wrong video ......... try this one.

Man o man, I haven't laughed that hard in a while!

soooo funny! roflmao!

Hey Chris,

Curiousity is a willful heroic act. The willingness to question without preconceived notions or bias, unafraid that the results might be disruptive (this is why it has a "feeling"). The young do it with less effort because they have not much history to be disrupted or thrown apart by some "truth".

so... the desire to know versus the status quo? interesting. that is actually pretty close to 'threat evaluation' I think...

good point.

Chris

No, the desire to know vs. absolutely nothing.

I suspect curiosity describes the need for that flash of pleasure upon learning something...an expansion of knowledge...it is satisfied at the edge of what is known and is most successfull when we sense there is more...to a particular path...that the edge is not rigid...

I like your answer... almost poetic.

Thankyou Artfarmer.

Welcome to cr4!

please explain more what you mean by "we sense there is more...to a particular path...that the edge is not rigid..."

Do you mean that the knowledge a person has is, say.. like a circle.. and has a boundary like a circle, and that curiosity is able to project possibilities beyond that boundary, and into the unknown?

Chris

Thank you, Chris. Wonderfully sensating question you asked. In searching to answer it for my self i will acquire a tool or tools to expand my perimeter...to enlarge my set of givens by which observations are measured...to further define me (for me)... exciting stuff...the force within your question which will change me is the answer...you have piqued my curiosity about curiosity.

interesting question - i think the moments of curiousity are when a person is perceiving something (the object of curiousity) and at the speed of thought comparing the perception to what is inside the individuals mind related to or becoming related to what they are perceiving. its your interaction with the inside or outside world that can have many motives that span the whole range of our needs - black or altruistic and anything in between.

Rabbit16,

thanks for this. ga.

chris

Ok, I'm late, but, I like to know "how things work" - because - it comes in handy.

"Knowing" can save your life, or earn you a living.

"knowing better" - can lead to "making it better", or be just remembering what led to that last near death. Which, post event, is usually prefaced by "YOU! Aught To Kn...

Or what your really asking is "where are the un-curious"? the "non-learners"?

Answer: dead - out of the gene pool - gone - extinct, ... Dodo ..

However 'speed' of curiosity (learning) is a variable which does count.

It's quite common for calves in Australia to be bitten by brown snakes.

Curious calves like to sniff - Incurious calves blunder - Brown snakes don't like ... well, any thing/one, near them.

So face bite = over curious.

Elsewhere bit = slow learner.

As it kills them: cows in Australia are breeding towards 'cautiously curious'.

Or what your really asking is "where are the un-curious"? the "non-learners"?

there is a lot of evidence that people are like sheep... so do you think that curiosity is a factor in leadership?

"However 'speed' of curiosity (learning) is a variable which does count."

might this be a result of practice?

good points.

chris

I think you are probably asking the wrong question. You (Chris) have already mentioned that many animals are curious: I think of my friend's spaniel as an exceptional example, as he could remember what he had previously discovered (a hole in the hedge which led to to an even bigger adventure) when returning to the same place after several years.

I think that someone on the forum has a tag line something like "Stupid people talk about people; average people talk about events, but, extraordinary people talk about ideas".

Curiosity is just a process which can be applied to many "subjects".

I think the question you really want to answer is what is it that controls the object of our curiosity.

"I think the question you really want to answer is what is it that controls the object of our curiosity."

yes... please go on. tell me.

Humans are not unique regarding curiosity. Many animals and even insects demonstrate behaviour that one could decribe as curiousity.

Cats are the obvious one, buy my three dogs show their curiousity everyday. Okay, two of them do, the third is content to just being petted.

"the third is content to just being petted."

me too... maybe that is my problem?

Ok...I got curious about this one and then there were too many responses to go thru all of them....that killed my curiousity.

I would say everyone is equally curious. What you are curious about stems from what you think (consciously or subconsciously) is relevant to your survival. And its your biofeedback mechanism that makes you "feel good" that you gained some knowledge/information to improve your survival chances. So, that's where your feeling part comes into play. Feelings/emotions are essential for survival as survival instincts (is there a pun here?) get encoded into genes to carry fwd the learnings and also to make it quick to react without logic/thinking in dire situations. Of course, a harmless boo might not need survival reactions, but the costs (your life?) when the boo isn't really harmless is too high to the costs (high BP?, stress?) for reactions to harmless boo.

so, the desire to know is feeling based. The process of acquiring knowledge is logic/reasoning based. Where u end ur curiosity is based on satisfaction -aka feeling based.

So, it all stems from instincts...and instincts are results of evolutionary hardwork...don't take it lightly...like freedom/independence!

AND who said u r getting old...stay young...that way I can stay teenager :)

all I can say is 'yes' with regards to how intertwined the feeling is... ga

A monolith appeared, and was touched........

are you talking about the Space Odyssey series?

Yes, the monkey curiously approaches the mysterious monolith, touches it and is transcended. next scene; monkey discovers the power of the bone as a tool/weapon.

Quasi-religious connotations?

totally.

Hey chris,

You asked me to take a guess.

My guess is, that you've asked a question that can't be answered.

It's like asking what "love" is. Humans have been grappling with that one since we've been here, and after thousands of years of analysis, we're still in the same spot. It can be described in all kinds of ways.......but it can't be defined.

That said, I was thinking about your thread last night, and I made a connection between your post and the countless threads regarding education.....or the lack thereof.

Should we as a society be working harder to cultivate curiosity in young kids, as opposed to just ABC's and 123's? I think so.....big time!

Just in my rambling thoughts, I came up with one quick example. Ask a kid if he/she wants to see an ancient space rock. Of course they're going to get excited and say yes. Take them out in the yard, pick up any old rock and explain to them that the material in that rock is billions of years old, and at one time, was floating around in space........................they will never look at a rock the same again.

My point is, that in addition to traditional education, I think that specific techniques could be developed to kick kids' curiosity into overdrive. Just a thought.

Anyway, just out of curiosity, does this thread indicate that old man winter might be blowing into the great north?

Hi K,

We, human, are curious because we don't have answers or just uncorrect answers, and we ask again what's the good, better or exact answer is.

One day some one asked me: How many divisible parts you have in one dollar? In Canada I can say, we have 1 loony (not the idiot), 4 quarters, 10 dimes or 10 cents, 20 nickels or 5 cents, and also 100 pennies or cents. The guy started to laugh and told that it's not true. He took a paper dollar, which doesn't exist any more today, and a scissor, and started to cut half, half of the previous half and followed more than 100 at the end. Conclusion: There is practically no definite answer to any question.

I agree to your comment: "in addition to traditional education, I think that specific techniques could be developed to kick kids' curiosity into overdrive."

Yes, for the very youngs, 14 or 16 months and older, we have to create special and specific schools to learn at very early age what we try to push in the minds today when they can eat hamburgers, alcoholic power-drinks, and smoke something else, which becam more important for them that listen to the prof and learn.

Continue to think and we get something better at the end, Gil.

"old man winter"

Just curios, is that another word for procrastination?

No. In winter time, especially up where chris is, the days get long, cold and dark early. I was raised up in northeastern US. People end up spending a lot of time indoors and getting a little stir crazy. It can lead to heavy drinking or starting "off the wall" threads on CR4.

"...or starting "off the wall" threads on CR4"

drats... you found me out.

From another completely different point of view.. suppose I'm a new Jedi padawan... and my Master Jedi is trying to teach me about curiosity... What will he/she say?.. "Reach out with your feelings [luke]... feel the force flow within you....??"

"My point is, that in addition to traditional education, I think that specific techniques could be developed to kick kids' curiosity into overdrive. Just a thought."

yes... go on... perhaps some letters on the fence? how about a letter that doesn't belong to the alphabet? Ω § ∞

ya... out my window this morning.

Hi Chris, thanks for the "curiously" interesting topic:

I think we could benefit from looking at this question from a more basic position. Humans are definitely not the only animals that possess the awesome power of curiosity. As you pointed out when you mentioned that it "killed the Cat," but it is necessary to keep the cat alive when there is no provider around to just hand the animal food.

When an animal like a dog goes about its daily life it sections off a territory where it feels safe and uses this space to search for food, water, and possibly materials for shelter and warmth (think nests) in order to meet then most basic needs for a chance at survival.

If anything "new" is discovered within the territory, then instinct drives the animal to investigate it because it could turn out to be a food source. If it turns out that it is not food, well then just p*ss on it! That is curiosity.

Excuse my "curiosity" Mr. EElectrician! could you please tell me if you consider yourself an Animal? and what kind? "Humans are not the only animals" I thought "Humans were created as "Humans" and "animals" as animals. Do you have the brain of an animal? Do you act like an animal? Do you love, hate, eat, walk or think like an animal?

The reason I ask is because I do not consider myself as an animal. And don't think that the rest of the folks in this discussion consider themselves as animals. At least that's what I hope.

Sorry........are we a bunch of animals trying to dissafer the word "curiosity? I think we are in big trouble here!

Neither...........I like being a human. Thank you!

Or maybe not

(Image curtsy CR4, somewhere)

Curios?

Animal Kingdom? Top of food chain? So proud of being human that one forgets what we are made up of.

Religion is like getting burned on a stove and coming back for more. First being curios and then discovering they all taste salty after a cooling down period and make you thirsty for more if and when you over do it.

If curiosity about (one) "thing" takes to long, procrastination sets in. Survival of the fittest is excluded from the formula. Slowly wheeling on the spot. Results are not desired because they could disturb the peace. The absence of curiosity does not indicate death or even stand still. Could leave a mark on the track though.

Following any temptation of ones curiosity('s) is the other side of the coin. I call it the "unguided missile syndrome". All over the place like a crazy persons poo. If I would be curios about every letter I type and why, I would be at a stand still.

What sets us apart from the animals is that we have the power to not always follow the curiosity path. We can overcome or not, a matter of free choice.

hernaju1

"Humans were created as "Humans" and "animals" as animals. Do you have the brain of an animal? Do you act like an animal? Do you love, hate, eat, walk or think like an animal?

Anyone get what I mean about drinking salty water?

Chewing gum and navigating a space ship at the same time? Any day, not even curios if I could do it.

Curiosity can kill anything and not only by instantaneous, direct results. It can be a long process if answers are neglected or masqueraded as "the written word".

"Making a mistake is OK making it more often is stupid"

or something along those lines.

Gotta go, Ky.

"Religion is like getting burned on a stove and coming back for more. First being curios and then discovering they all taste salty after a cooling down period and make you thirsty for more if and when you over do it."

Have you been eating christians again?

If curiosity about (one) "thing" takes to long, procrastination sets in. Survival of the fittest is excluded from the formula. Slowly wheeling on the spot. Results are not desired because they could disturb the peace. The absence of curiosity does not indicate death or even stand still. Could leave a mark on the track though.

Ky's Theory Of Laziness....

"All over the place like a crazy persons poo"

splarf... I'm kinda speechless about that one... maybe you have a paining called "Crazy Person's Poo" ??? can't wait to see that one..

"Chewing gum and navigating a space ship at the same time? Any day, not even curios if I could do it."

I'm sure you would... thats what is great about you. You are a master of the mixed metaphor too!

"Curiosity can kill anything and not only by instantaneous, direct results. It can be a long process if answers are neglected or masqueraded as "the written word"."

I"m not sure what you mean.. written word... if one spends too much time reading you might die? oh dear I am in trouble...

"Making a mistake is OK making it more often is stupid"

I guess that is why we have mental anguish or guilt when we make a mistake.. to overcome the inertia and mental laziness, to find new answers...

Cheers!

chris

You know that you are breaking a curiosity thread land speed world record, don't you? I am not surprised because it is a dense thought process if one goes all the way. You got customers Mate.

"Curiosity can kill anything and not only by instantaneous, direct results. It can be a long process if answers are neglected or masqueraded as "the written word".

Well, what I mean is that any word or a bunch of them, trying to grasp, define, materialize the subject can only be the representation of what it is assuming, presuming, attempting to be. It is masked by personality, or personal interpretation from the word go.

One kid or small animal (_{go down list}) is not like the other. Their inquisitiveness has a border with curiosity but is not the same. Imagination shares a border with curiosity as well but you knew that.

maybe you have a paining called "Crazy Person's Poo" ???

There are some very nice typos popping up in this thread. You did mean painting, didn't you? Here it is, you asked for it.

"Crazy Persons Poo"

Just changed the title for you. Because I can.

Hope this helps, Ky.

love it!!!

Religion? Ever check out Zeitgeist Part1 ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guXirzknYYE

I've seen.. other versions.. haven't watched it since last year.

anything new?

No, but just thought people would find it interesting if they hadn't seen it yet. It opened my eyes.

Tree of life.

Good analogy. People are like dogs, seeking a comfortable territory. To extend it a little further, innovation and the resulting change is a threat that must be attacked and killed.

"If it turns out that it is not food, well then just p*ss on it! That is curiosity."

splarf!! so true... even the smallest dog will drag you along... smelling everything... and marking every 20 feet... lol

very good.

chris

Hi Chris,

Happy to add or collaborate to your interesting qyestion. My "human ego" tells me that curiosity is only practiced human. In animal world, I think curiosity is not present or extremely little. I saw lions walking toward food, small animal, catch it and eat it. However, when the meal was accomplished, they get a snap dispite another small animal where present around them. There were no curiosity why small animal, in danger the most of the time but never after a meal.

We, human, are saw, seeing or will see an event, we naturally ask why the event happened, happens or will occur such way. We ask ourselves, could it happen differently or stay the same all the time? This natural, can be instinctive motivation to ask questions is curiosity.

As you mentioned about previous forums, in science, processes, and in general at work, we have question about every stage of the "event". Why we do such way? What happens, what will be the result if we do differently or another way? Can we act differently to get what we do?

When I am curious, I talk about personal curiosity, I particularly and all the time use PDSA or Deming cycle, plan, do, study, and act to get some answer to my curiosity. This simple method helps me to solve problems, create new and different ideas and things, and I can help myself and others more efficiently. It can be applied to everything in business and also in life.

After me, TRIZ is little bit different. Someone think about something and give order to another people, without the original curiosity, to realize the answer. Curiosity creates motivation, and motivation is a powerful engine to action that produces solutions. I think, in the Stalinian communist era, certain people have ideas, most of the time the same individuals, and other have the duty to make happen what was asked. Let me know if I am wrong about that.

Curiosity follows an "event". Without event we cannot have just a question: Why happens nothing? And, there are no or very little chance to produce some answer.

Curiosity motivates and motivation develop curiosity, Gil.

"...PDSA or Deming cycle, plan, do, study, and act..."

I like that...

as to the other things... I don't know. I do see curiosity exhibited by animals. I don't think Altshuller was a typical russian.. certainly he got on the wrong side of Stalin... although that wasn't hard to do...

"Curiosity follows an "event"."

if the event is a 'discovery' of an object, okay.. usually i would just say that an object can cause curiosity.

chris

Altshuller is definitely German (the name). It roughly translates to Old Scholar.

Nice, isn't it?

Hi Chris,

I agree that Altshuller was not a pure Stalinian Russian but he has to do Stalin's way for sure. Any other way, he did not survived up to the dead of the Master of the "Communism". However, I think that the final approval of important and valueable to the communist principles research programs were made by the Master, Stalin by itself and Altshuller was smart enough to make his way but acceptable by the Master.

I admit that: "I would just say that an object can cause curiosity" is realistic when the object is seen the first time, and this is the "event". Also, it can be an old object seen many times in a new occasion when it creates or provokes a "new" idea but, for me, still the result of an "event". I like the word "event". Please, demolish it!

Thanks for the word "object" that give some other thoughts and reflections about curiosity, Gil.

On the second to the last paragraph of your question, you mention the word "worry"..."we don't have to worry" What is "worry" what causes us to worry so much about the younger generation not being "curious" enough? A question to a question! Sorry!

Yeah, what is worry?

Is it an emotion?

Oh no................

I would go for curiosity plus expectation of negative results = negative emotion...

C x (-R) = -E

Chris

good point... I think they are very closely related.

but with a different feeling. good point.

chris

I think curiosity is an urge to know, is an impulse, a message from the brain that pushes us to do something, to act. It is an expectation. I also think that curiosity is a natural feeling driven by emotions, a wanting, a sensation.....and many other things that our human body desires. Kids are more curious than older people because they want to know and we older folks think we know everything! I noticed that curiosity is in a future state...what would happen if I? You know what I mean?

"Kids are more curious than older people because they want to know and we older folks think we know everything!" this I find to be true, on average... although I resist generalizations, as these sorts of things are truly on a personal basis. I plan on being curious my whole life...

also this reminds me of that old David Niven story.

Bring on the empty horses

On the set of 'The Charge of the Light Brigade', when, wanting to see stray horses wandering through the battle, Curtiz directed the wranglers to "Bring on the empty horses". When Niven and Flynn cracked up laughing, he responded with:'You people, you think I know f*ck nothing; I tell you: I know f*ck all" David Niven later made this "curtizism" immortal by naming his autobiography:"Bring on the empty horses."

yes... future state.. what if..
I get that.
Chris

Is there another word for "synonym"?

"synonyme" en francais
"sinónimo" en Espanõl

Hi Phil,

This is an awesome post... we all love innovation here...

but most of it relates to invention.. which I think is a level above curiosity...

invention is usually much more strategic than curiosity.. but invention certainly is based upon the skill of curiosity.

You said "Question Everything"... which is right on point... but what do you do.. do you formulate 'word questions' in your mind? do you see pictures?

I'm just asking you to step down one level.. see what you do mid-stream and share that with us...

keep up the good work

Chris

Hola

Ya I went a little outside what you were fishin for thoughts on. Hey, the Philosophy of Engineering. This could be an interesting course in university.

My curiosity usually centers around why is something done a certain way, what are the overall objectives, and how can it be done more elegantly. Words are nothing, 3D images evolve in my thoughts. The latest thing haunting me is the non-friction based continuously variable transmission which I am certain I will solve.

Curiosity I think results from our inherent human need to simplify and categorize everything around us (including people). This makes us comfortable because fear stems from the unknown. If we can't understand it, there's always a magic invisible god available to attribute it to.

Does curiousity kill the cat? For the inventor, seeking the solution to a problem that turns out to be unsolvable may consume their thoughts and life.

-Philip

Hi Philip,

"The latest thing haunting me is the non-friction based continuously variable transmission which I am certain I will solve."

thats easy... when you get that done, you can smooth out the wrinkles in the GIT.

make sure you include other impossibilities like trisecting an angle with pencil and compass...

good luck. its good practice.

actually... perhaps you should define 'non-friction' for me... because there is friction in all things.. hydraulic, magnetic, pneumatic, etc.

Chris

Because you made me curious - I went and puzzled over that trisecting "impossible"

If marking this out on metal, I'd just need a straight edge and dividers. I.e. I see no need for marks on the straight edge/rule.

Using the dividers, (still set for the circle), tips held against the rule, I'd drift the rule, until the 3 points line up. I.e. the straight edge intersects A and the divider points are at D and C, (adjacent to the rule edge). Then, holding the rule, scribe AD (with a divider point)

And having run through the actions in my mind, it's seconds, not minutes to do, or far quicker than getting out the vernier protractor.

Seems to me it would be a more accurate technique than their 'pencil' compass and parallax of aligning marks on the rule, anyway.

So is it just 'lack of marking out technique' that makes it "impossible"?

Or just they haven't noticed that AB is set on their compass?

Or just some geek Greek semantics in the 'rules'?

Hi 34point5,

I have to admit I'm not following your instructions well. Does the image represent the final image (trisected) somehow?

and secondly, when I was playing around with this years ago, the proofs were given to me algebraically with sin/cos/tan type of proofs.. of which I'm completely lost in... so I'm not qualified to comment.

so you would actually have to tell me that this or isn't verifiable...

and if you did it.. you would be a star.

I have only heard that there is a solution encoded in the great pyramid somehow.

chris

In the diagram, BCD is an isosceles triangle and angle b is 1/3 angle a.

You needn't draw BC, it's just there to demonstrate 'isosceles' exists for the 'proof'.

So assume you have angle a in isolation (just two lines intersecting at a point)

Draw circle radius AB and extend the angle a base line out 'past D'

What you want to do now is draw line AD via C.

Center your rule on A. sloped approximately toward, yet to be found D

Take your dividers (still set at radius AB) and rest the points against the rule edge, say laid over nearly flat, such that they can slide about with the rule, on the surface, paper, sheet metal, whatever.

Now keeping the rule edge on A, slide things about until the divider points (always touching the rule) coincide with a point anywhere on 'base line' (finds D) and a point somewhere on the circle (finds C)

You are now set to draw line ACD. That done angle b (at D) is 1/3 angle a

So to complete; with your dividers, copy the distance from line ACD to the center of the circle, B. Now mark it 'down' from point A, so you can draw a line parallel to ACD, through B.

This duplicates angle b within angle A. I.e. you have "1/3 ^rd" and 2/3 ^rds remaining.

With the dividers, bisect the 2/3 ^rds, draw that line and your done.

I've sent you a power point - having lost patience with (and curiosity for) the CR4 vs Bill via Apple war. Post if you like/can/care/whatever.

thank you.. still studying..

Curiosity will one day probably be explained as a certain mix of chemicals in the brain that causes us to examine something more closely and once examined the reward center is stimulated. Shortly thereafter a gene that affects the frequency that the brain secretes this mixture will be found. Is curiosity a benificial factor to an evolving race? I believe it would be, mainly because we still have it.

Nothing mystical, nothing magical, just a few chemicals swirling around in out heads.

I agree that is the feeling part. the motivation...

what is the process? the software algorithm... please master..

Well written. I am curios about who you are but as long as you are here that's good. You must be a wonderinner because your style of writing reminds me of none of the "cracks" here.

Very fresh and calming perspective. How about coming around more often? Dissecting with out hurting is are rare craft. I like it, Ky.

Sorry for the long delay in responding to your comments, ky. My wife is seriously ill, and I had to admit her to the hospital again today -- third time in the last month. I appreciate your kind thoughts.

Yes, it really doesn't matter who I am. In the past, when my schedule was more regular, I posted on a fairly regular basis in different threads -- mostly where I felt a "spiritual" bent to the conversation would help with perspective. Every morning when I turn my computer on at work I review the CR4 threads in the little thread newsletter email that is sent to everyone. I do sometimes post in a mundane way about solutions to problems; but less often than the other way. There are plenty of experts on this forum to solve practical work-a-day problems for folks here. But all occupations serve better when viewed through the lens of spirituality. If I can add to a thread in that way I try to do so. Sometimes I do skip where I might post. Just depends.

there is a possible universe in which your wife is well and healing...

by envisioning it as though it has come to pass, with a living tangible feeling, you collapse the quantum probability, and make it a certainty.

the attitude is gratitude.

chris

Without having had my experience, i would not be able to fully understand what you are saying. but, as you noted, everything changed that day.. (or appeared to) I've never seen my existence the same way. I became 'weird'...lol but that is okay, because I got a sense of connection too... to that higher life. and I have to say you have done as good a job as can be done in words of describing the situation.

All that being said, I know from my experience and from my reading, that my body continues to function while my spirit is wandering (still connected however).. and the brain appears to have functions it can operate on its own. so I have asked this question about curiosity to find out about that specific function. I can see that there are 'motivational' aspects that pertain.. but the basic algorithm that can be improveda and taught to another person is what I'm after.. without having to teach any spiritual stuff.

thank you again.

Chris

O.K. I didn't specifically address the issue of whether or not "curiosity" can be taught to someone else. I think you are mixing up enthusiasm with curiosity. If you think more about my description I think you might conclude (as is implied) that "curiosity" is carried over from past lives. When the specific subject that your mind, is "built" to respond to, in any one life comes up, (and it will, because desire is the driving force behind rebirth) then that which you are calling curiosity or inventiveness will sprout forth just like a seed does in the proper conditions. A good example of this is child prodigies. Two-year old children that upon being around a piano or keyboard demonstrate and uncanny ability to play it. You are asking if you can transmit your enthusiasm or interest; i.e., having an "inventive" mind -- or if there might be some "method" to do so.

The "quality" of the Mind you will have depends on your past actions. This is why some people seem slow-witted while others have an amazingly fast and sharp intellect. Therefore, your ability to invoke curiosity (with the implied expectation and feelings) will not work on everyone, even if you can come up with some method.

Also, my description was just that. Nothing more. To think that you would have to "teach spiritual stuff" as part of some method to induce or pass inventiveness/curiosity on to someone else is not what I meant by posting a long explanation. It just took that much writing to try to get a fairly, overall picture of the situation. You may indeed find an "algorithm" or set of exercises, etc. that might sharpen or focus one's abilities in this direction, but all you will really be doing is amplifying, so to speak, what is already there.

The method is alluded to in my longer post. Concentrating at the Eye Center with some problem or question in mind is, in essence, bringing that desire to a point where it will attract mental vibrations that, if one is honest about it, are "inspirational ideas." Of course, that is somewhat like using a Ferrari as a wheelbarrow to haul soil around your property, when it could take you to many far off places and wonder-filled experiences.

I hope this addresses your original post more clearly.

well this is a lot to take in.

must be my ADD tendencies going crazy.... I agree.. I have alternate view... I agree... I have another thought... aaaagghh.

when I started this, I thought it would be simple.. now I feel simple.

I don't disagree with what you are saying... but I was originally thinking it was a simple mental process, like a flow chart or something, an algorithm, a process. I want to know how to use it better... which kicks me out of philosophy or vision techniques. (which I also practice)

chris

Just for the sake of discussion...

There is a story of a man who was blind who was also the disciple of a "Teacher." He said to his Teacher, "I have gone/seen back 100 births and can not see the reason (actions/reactions -- karma) I am blind in this birth." It is said that his Teacher then gave him the power to see back further and he was able to see that something he did 106 births back was the cause of his current blindness. Can you see how this factor pretty much precludes developing an "algorithm" to try to change or impart curiosity or inventiveness to yourself or anyone else? Limitations on mind and body in any one life are predestined and not much can alter them. So much is predetermined -- health, wealth, mental acuity, number of breaths, etc.

You, Chris, may be able to "amplify" your mental abilities, but your intellect already seems sharp. Any form of concentration practice will help. This is also the way of successful meditation. Concentration whereby the mental vibrations become still enough for your "Attention" (outward expression of the Soul) to be "transported" inward and upward where contact can be made with the Light and Sound. But without a competent Guru/Teacher who comes from above the Three Worlds to "connect" you with them, you won't know how to utilize them to go beyond the Three Worlds. Also, there is a definite "Negative Power" (whereby Mind originates) which works to keep the Soul from transcending these realms. An example of this was the "Temptation of Christ." And even if one can somehow transcend these realms there is vast Void of Darkness, like a moat, that separates the Soul from its True "Original" Home. This can only be crossed with a Guide who has come from that Original Home. With each ascension from one realm to another that Realm then appears so beautiful, captivating, All Light, and the end-all... not to mention that each region is "ruled" or governed by a "Lord" of that region. Each will also appear to be the omniscient Ruler and Creator of everything below Him. Without a Guide the Soul becomes so enamored and intoxicated and remains there thinking it has found its final resting place. Without a competent guide the seeker doesn't know of anything beyond. The Soul may be "trapped" in such a condition for aeons that seems like Eternity. The Soul will even feel the "Oneness" of everything, though it is still a Realm of Matter so fine as to be indistinguishable from Spirit, without a Guide. But eventually there is rebirth and the cycle of illusion continues. This has been described as God's "Play." (I wouldn't disagree with most people's reaction: Too fantastic to believe in theory!)

My point in the long post is/was: The desire to sharpen and utilize the mind better for its outward tendencies, actually, tightens the noose of imprisonment for the Soul here. Thus my reference to Rubik's Cube. Can you see that perspective, now? That is why I said this would be a disappointment to most readers. Solving puzzles is fun and addictive! Who wants to give that activity up to seek something higher? Very, very few. Only those who are destined to seek the solution to the ultimate puzzle... solving the Mystery of Life.

"This can only be crossed with a Guide who has come from that Original Home"

Where did the first Guide come from? / get there?

"Too fantastic to believe in theory!"

Not at all - it's exactly like the public service grade system.

And at the risk of my sight in a future existence - the message here is; 'don't try Chris, there is no point'.

Dark Ages thinking.

34point5 -

O.K. As posted below, I'm not sure I want to post a lot more about this in this thread. Maybe I was too "intoxicated" with conveying what I did before thinking about it.

This won't make much sense without a more complete explanation (which as mentioned, I'll avoid), but the short answer is: There was a point where Spirit was not ensouled in material bodies of any kind, but when the "Negative" power (downward/outward stream of the Sound Current) manifested the "creation" (as a beginning process) below what is called the True Home, it was devoid of "Life." Spirit (as Souls) was injected into this lower Creation to animate the forms there. That's us -- and all matter that has "Life" and "Consciousness." At that point the Positive (or inward/upward current) as manifested, promised the "Souls" incarnated into the Three Worlds, that whenever they tired of the existence in these Three Worlds, their call to return Home would be heard and the Lord of the True Home would Himself incarnate to bring the weary Souls back. The very First incarnation was of necessity a unique event. But it is like a fire that once lit has been kept burning in different times via the teacher/disciple relationship. This may not be a satisfactory answer, but that is the teaching I have been given. Guides/teachers of this caliber are rare but at least one is always existent on Earth. The human form is the only form whereby the Soul can have this opportunity. Other bodies are merely for paying off karmas. For those Souls that are "destined" to get the contact, they will be given birth in bodies where they will be brought in contact with the current "Guide." Obviously there are many teachers, but most do not lead one past the Three Worlds. This also raises questions, does it not? There are mysteries which only makes sense as we go upward, even when answers are given in words.

"Dependency" on "teachers" (or Priests, or title as applicable) is a commonality of all "institutionalized religious organizations", since before the Pyramids.

You will not find 'dependancy' in the original ethos of any mainstream religion founder. In fact it is usually the opposite "guidance".

You will however find 'unquestioning dependency on the leader' it in all 'cults'.

You may learn a lot by unfettering your curiosity of the 'subsequent organizational embellishments' and reading the original writings in isolation.

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_{This message sponsored by TheologyR'us - 3 chairs, no waiting.}

Sorry to disagree. Even Jesus said, "None come to the Father except by Me." (John 14:6) That's pretty dependent. The Son is the eternal Guide. The misunderstanding of modern Christian thinking is that the Son was a body called Jesus. In fact, the Son was Spirit working "through" Jesus. The Son works through different human Poles as needed.

The final say is experience. Take Chris, for example. Nothing anyone could say would convince him that his experience was not real. Reading books by the tons doesn't compare. Thinking doesn't compare. Don't forget most scriptures were written many, many years after the holy men left. Textual criticism is educational in that respect. Books by Bart Ehrman cover this subject quite well.

I don't think I've seen a post that disproves it's own point so well. Mayhaps thou hast but heareth of the professor, not readeth his wrote, for he sayeth much as I doth.

But again; this is not the forum for this topic.

So

Now you are talking about one book specifically designed to stifle curiosity!

When fairy tales are written 30 or several hundred years later about a supposed event how much fact is there involved? Probably none!

I can't say all this agrees with my beliefs.. but.. interesting.

thank you.

chris