What is Curiosity?

Yes, Chris.

I have to say... when I woke up this morning, I felt, in a way, like someone who had been drunk the night before and did/said things s/he regretted the next day. I am not sure I should have posted so much. Much more discussion could take place because one statement may indeed lead to several questions. I don't think CR4 forums is the best place to have such discussions. There are discussions like this all over the Internet. Maybe I'm too old or too much from another era, but somehow the "broadcast" qualities of the digital age don't mix well, for me, with the conveyance of spirituality.

I understand about not agreeing. My Teacher always said, "Don't believe my words, unless you experience it for yourself." No "belief" or teaching/theory means much if it can't be converted into facts via experience. This is the status of most religions. While I haven't proven the total cosmogony of the path I follow (i.e., reached the True Home mentioned), I have been given enough to make it my life goal, as long as I inhabit this body. My teacher never said it was easy or accomplished overnight. There is work (self-introspection and meditation) involved.

did you see this thread? perhaps you (and her) might enjoy this story.

Religion (and spirituality), politics, and other similar emotional discussions get banned from the dinner table CR4 because they have a tendency to make people feel bad, due to the diversity of opinion on those subjects. Even war, conspiracy theories, and over-unity discussions fare better... or are generally allowed... because they are more technical...

I think that it is important to be a aware of how any given presentation makes other people feel, and if one wishes to continue to have an audience, to tailor the message to the audience. I think you found a reasonable audience with your writing, but there are always going to be people who question its validity. I'm not a moderator, and wouldn't think of asking you to remove or change it, as I find it harmless and insightful.

It is difficult to say absolutely how any other dimensions or planes work... as there is a significant lack of evidence... and I suggest that one not present as an expert. the only experts in spirituality are dead. all other experts are expert in a small portion of it, or in the history of spiritual writings on earth...

The fact that your wife is sick is most likely the motivator of your feeling of drunkenness. In the face of potentially helpless situations, all people react differently at different times. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a spiritual center to your life and beliefs. We are here to learn, and then we graduate. Her journey and learning path are different than yours, regardless of the possibility of ultimate unity. In this plane, you are separate. The love you have is eternal.

Chris

Chris,

Yes. As I look at it again, my posts in that thread were #30 (in response to your post #25) and #43 (in response to #42).

The evidence (and knowledge) of how spiritual planes work is in obtained by withdrawing one's Attention from outside, rising up on the Sound Current and seeing for one's self. They are more real than this Plane, when there. This is the only way to judge the competence of a Guide. He (or She, as there have been women Masters) should be able give you some experience to start with. All "experts" in spirituality are not dead. For those who truly seek this experience (and who are destined), the "Father" makes arrangements to meet a True Guide in this lifetime. This is exactly what happened in my life. I couldn't understand, growing up, why I couldn't have lived when Jesus did, so I could have all my questions about life, God and death answered directly. How this "meeting" came to be in my life was just as profound and dramatic as your experience that changed you and changed your life. Inner experiences are not something allowed to be shared except in some cases, by permission. Guides of the highest path work in relative obscurity. Their message and instructions will not appeal to the masses. Jesus taught his disciples the "mysteries" in private -- away from the crowds he spoke to in parables. Where were those "mystery" teachings written down? Anywhere that you know of? There is some evidence. There is a book by Morton Smith, called "The Secret Gospel", which is interesting in this regard.

My reference to "drunkeness" was more a reference to the intoxication of sharing knowledge that I don't often share. Most of the people I currently work with have no idea about my spiritual life. It's not something I converse about often. Mostly, because most people might be "curios" but not real seekers. It is generally better to just give hints and if people are hungry for spirituality they will ask further questions. I've been following my path for 39 years. I learned very early on not to say much about it. The tendency, when one is first in the blush of spiritual "romance", is to enthusiastically share it with those they are close to. Didn't work. My family had no real interest. I felt compelled to post what I did. It may have been similar to the mistakes I made earlier in my life as mentioned.

My wife also follows the same path. And, yes, advancement (or progress) is independent of one another. It is common for New Age thinking to think in terms of "Soul Mates." That is a lower concept. All Souls are drops in the Ocean of All-Consciousness. No male or female. Like waves on the ocean, they appear separate, but in Reality, it is all the Ocean. This perspective is what we are destined for. There is a very real inner journey of the Soul, through the regions I referred to. If a seeker is lucky he comes across someone who can lead him through them all and beyond them all. But all this is just words for readers here. That's my point. It does little good without having a method to transcend body consciousness. Until then all discussion is just mental concepts and beliefs. This is another reason I generally don't share much of my spiritual life. I have had experiences. If I could relate them in person, you might get some sense of how profound they have been. But I doubt it. Have people generally believed your experiences? You probably have learned not to share them casually. But even when you have recounted them, you can see in your listener's faces they really don't know how much to believe, etc. That was what my reference to "drunkeness" was really about.

O.K. I sent a long post reply that obviously wasn't to the liking of the administrators. But surely they wouldn't object to me sending my reply to you privately, would they? I will be glad to send it to you at an "off forum" email address.

Erased Guest.

no they wouldn't.. but they would have marked any post they didn't like with a reference to the section of the rules that applied... so which post # are you referring to? I haven't seen anything deleted or moderated yet. ??

Chris

I was about to post and realized I needed to leave. Will post later.

Always nice to have a passerby keep one posted on their movements.

You gave him a name...........good job!

What is Curiosity? In short, it's an instinct. One that is not isolated to human thoughts or feelings. Various species have a curiosity about them, i.e. when a dog hears a noise it will perk its ears and look towards the sound. Even though this example is along the lines of a reaction to an external stimuli, it has a level of curiosity within it. Perhaps I am reading into the question too much but in my opinion, I think the attributes that were assigned to curiosity belong to a predominantly exclusive human trait, imagination. I say this because imagination is what drives the human thought process and it allows for the various scenarios to be played out in ones mind. To address the curious natures of different people, I think it is a result of a different characteristic, the desire to learn and grow. Not everyone has the same drive within them to expand their respective horizons. You can educate someone about a topic but if they are not truly interested and do not seek the expansion then what you have taught will more than likely be dismissed as not important to them. The curious mind will seek the answers to satisfy the boundaries that are needed to guide the imagination along the proper thought process. The level of interest in a subject will influence the amount of curiosity that is used.

Can it be taught? I think it can be honed and guided, but to teach someone to have an internal drive you would have to delve into other aspects such as emotions and reasoning.

I woke up in the middle of the night... a worry I suppose came into my mind.. but I had a hard time getting back to sleep... over and over and over again.. all the aspects of the problem... scenarios..

I do think worry and curiosity are closely connected, just with different emotions.

Chris

"worry and curiosity are closely connected" - or soon will be.

so true.

& thus the beginning a different thread outlining some of the primary rules governing human behavior

I present rule #1

Pu*sy made me crazy

makes... my friend... makes.

you say made like that will ever end!

True..

Is curiosity bait?

Does the second time you see a wallet lying on the sidewalk, initiate curiosity plus worry that it might be tied to a monofilament line like the last one?

Curiosity starts as all animals explore their ever expanding world

When I thought about the question, it seemed to me much like filling in all squares of a truth table of possibilites

How big do you imagine your world [truth table]? The question could be what defines the parameters?

Why do some of us keep expanding the table?

I certainly see a 'truth table' aspect to curiosity (and analysis)

I got it!

CR4 = Engine

Fuel = curiosity

Operation = Self regulating

Speed = variable

Governing = you know who

Thrust = depending on ambient atmosphere (utmost fear?). No particles involved.

Application = black hole, partial vacuum avoidance

Price = priceless

Purpose = peace of mind

Maintenance = hellofalot

Do a

on it and Bobs you uncle. Beauty is not only found in the detail.

I have a few chores to get out of the way so I'll leave you with it, for now.

Paint by numbers from here on in? , Ky.

I've never seen a triangular volute before... the endless fascination of geometry.. thank you for that.

chris

Fantastic thread Chris! I just read through it once and am going to spend some time rereading some of the great posts on here.

I'll throw in my thoughts...

Let's consider for a moment a window. What is a window? Many people would offer a description of the window as a pane of glass, after all when you buy new windows this is what you get and expect. But... what is a window? To me it isn't so much a pane of glass as it is a lack of wall offering me a wonderful view of the forest beyond.

I think curiosity is much like the window that it isn't so much a "thing" as it is a lack of something... namely ego. For those who are humble enough to shed the ego and accept that there are things they do not know or understand, they will seek the answer as a simple consequence. Take a magic show as an example... the magician craftfully creates an illusion that dispels ones sense of knowing and understanding... he creates curiosity by dispelling the ego and gives you a taste of the wonders beyond.

Just a thought anyhow... I look forward to reading all of the further insights...

I like that...

maybe curiosity is like a magnetic field... and when there are no restrictions placed on it, it flows (through the object of focus) and the field is integral with the mind, and so it is a kind of natural learning field...

You know there are techniques (rhythmic music, alpha rhythms, lsd, etc..) that dilate the mind.. and make learning faster and more durable...

interesting.

Chris

So many curious posts on curiosity and I was so curious about how come so much number of posts on this topic and could read a lot of diversified inputs from CR4ians.

*Well curiosity is the main 6th sense differentiating humans from rest of the species.

*The sense and urge to reveal the veils of phenomenon and resources around.This curiosity and mankind's journey of exploration is the very basis of our current status of life- our gadgets, products, services, medicines, media and lot more.

* The key drive behind curiosity could be a sense of leadership, responsibility, fact finding, problem solving, business opportunities all aimed under the context of bettering our survival, so to say the modern science and technology gifts to man kind, life saving medicines, transport systems, communication systems and so on.

*The need for improving our standards and reach.

*The replication of new problems and the endless struggle to tackle-curiosity to establish permanent solutions and relax without troubles. But Mosquittoes will keep coming back again- be curious to fight again- our spirit and perseverance.

*Enjoyment and exploitation-art, music,food,literature,culture,security etc.

*Lack of contentment in humans, the restless exploration attitude-what, when,where,How?

* Humans always seek activity for the mind, body and intellects, the fourth basic need next to food, shelter and clothing- occupation and engagement.

*Curiosity is a journey of quest, knowing the unknown and once the truths are known the thrill is lost, a vertual fact of course,leading to boredome and diminishing interets- a fact on the behavioural graph of curious missions.

* So how to keep up this pleasure of curiosity driven expedition? It is so simple- Have mile stones, switch over to the next stage targets, have diversities on indulgence without confinement- a feeling of freedom.

* Don't forget to leave the fruits of your journey for the benefit of others and next generations- the exemplary gesture what nature delivers to us- all of mine are dedicated for consumers, the open naked truth, a sense of possessionless, the ultimate spiritual status, just next to the final- the game is over and rest in peace forever.. Nothing beyond nothing.

We are brought to the world than being born. At times re motivation on our worth of life becomes a necessity. Nice poetry for all those who are stranded up aimless and depressed on their like journey, something close to Bio Diversity and it's worth in the totality of Eco system,

Dear Friends,

It is sunday.. and I have a few more minutes to add to this thread.

Firstly, let me thank you all for the abundance of thoughtful replies. It has taken on a warm fuzzy character all its own, and that was unexpected.

Secondly, I think it is time to recharge, regroup, and refocus, as I realize more how deep this topic is, and still want to get to something more algorithmic... so I apologize for not giving up just yet.

Thirdly, when I sat down to compose this post, I was thinking I was going to lay out a small challenge. Then I got researching, and got rather overwhelmed with that. Suffice to say there is a ton of information out there... so this is going to be more difficult than I had originally intended... and I'm going to have much less time to devote to this one, starting next week, as I'm starting a new job or two.

So, if willing, the challenge is this. Imagine that you are assigned the position of Senior Researcher/Resident Genius, with your own electronics/computer lab, and that there is a software department associated with it. It is your task to define and build a machine algorithm (hardware/ software/logic system) that can pass the equivalent of a Turing test, in mimicking Curiosty. (This reference states curiosity is an emotion, but I am only looking for the logic process or actions associated with it) The outputs for this challenge will be a flow description (pseudocode, flowchart, control flow diagram etc.) or any of variation of these.

I would prefer to speak of all functions in specific terms, of how things are accomplished. Here are some source references. (Machine Learning, Learning, Cybernetics, Mind and Brain Portal, memory, cognitive psychology, Learning Styles, ad nauseum. )

I realize that I will lose some participation here, but the subject demands this of me. At this point I'd like to quote the wiki on Curiosity. "What seems to happen is that human curiosity about curiosity itself (i.e. meta-curiosity or meta-interest), combined with the ability to think in an abstract way, lead to mimesis, fantasy and imagination - eventually leading to an especially human way of thinking ("human reason"), which is abstract and self-aware, or conscious. Readers of this page who are curious about meta-curiosity are experiencing meta-meta-curiosity."

makes me think I'm only meta-crazy...

.IF interested
.....Create_Curiosity_Function
.ELSE IF
.....Get_Coffee
.END IF

Chris

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint_by_number

Sorry Chris but I think the above link has some relevance although it is tongue in cheek. You are aiming very, very high and by the time you have that magic algorithm the carrot is on its merry way.

Good to meet on this journey, Ky.

Hi Ky,

thanks for the thought.

still, someone has to ask the question, and figure out how to do the basics, before it can be systematized, as in paint-by-number.

The easy way doesn't come first.

I just love the diversity of thought that comes from CR4.

Chris

Same here Chris. I did not want to belittle your attempt to get a grip on things. Its just that once it has been analyzed it will have lost spirit, I think. I am not even curios if it will, I just seem to know for some reason.

Connections with the dream world have been mentioned and this conundrum reminds me of just that. You will only be able to remember parts of a dream and the harder you try to interpret, see it again, the less clear it becomes. It is a sacred realm in some way and maybe for a good reason.

Enjoy, Ky.

But I suspect yours will be bigger.

well... my thinking is that it might be simpler to create or author a system that represents the basics, than to figure out or deduce a system that can't be measured properly. (if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... then its a reasonable representation of a duck)

No No No we already did that somewhere.

Yep

Hi Chris; just a rough out line still a few blanks in there

=====================================================

While(Heart beats){

ACTION:

Object = 0;

State = Mind activity( );

if(state == awake){

Activity = Centre_Of_Interest( );

Switch(Activity){

case smell: Object = Smell_Recognition( ); break;

case hearing: Object = hearing_Recognition( );break;

case visual: Object = Visual_Recognition( ); break;

case touch: Object = Touch_Recognition( ); break;

case action: Movement_Urge(Appeal); break;

Default: break;

}

CURIOUS:

If(Object){ Appeal = InertSense_Value(Object);

Associates = GetSimularStructure(Appeal,Object);

} else { Object = Curious(Associates ); goto CURIOUS;}

}else{

Dream(Object);// Puts objects into associated structures.

// NOTE dreams are about associates of object not the objects themselves.

}; goto ACTION;

} end while.

int far Curious(int NewObject){

return Recognise(NewOject);

}

=============================================

Regards JD.

Hey JD,

thank you so much for that. You set the bar high!

the only thing I'm not qute sure what you mean is: "Appeal =" ?

can you add some comments for this? Is this where the intensity of curiosity varies?

ga

Chris

Appeal?

Every sense has a range, by this I mean a value of like and dislike, some smells are nice others are putrid, some sounds are sweet others are cause, to touch some thing can be smooth while others rough, and a visual view is beautiful or ugly. Appeal is the innate value that our senses give to any object. So? that might also include curiousity.

Regards JD.

Lets raise the bar a bit further and consider the consequences of such a programme? Though not obvious at first, such a programme would have a military application? Consider a country surrounded by hostile neighbours that launch rockets on to its territory, To defend themselves they develop a computer programme that curiously watches its neighbours, has the ability to recognise what is going on before any action has taken place, this then coupled with a Lazar system could pre-empt a rocket launch and destroy it within seconds. Just some curious thoughts.

Regards JD.

Isn't that the state of affairs already?

I agree, But the terminator would be an added curios?

Regards JD.

Yeah, right

GA

But: I think at the core of this program is the subroutine GetSimilarStructures, which is a very non-trivial task as I think I have explained in my post #240.

Abstract pattern recognition/matching is the key.

Hi Randall,

Read your post and in full agreement GA. The subroutine GetSimilarStructures I agree is a very complicated function, recognition to me is dominated by muscular movement? Which I call sense auxiliaries.

Consider a person playing a very complicated musical peace at the piano, every movement is memory related, muscles of the fingers, arms, eyes, head, hearing, legs, etc, every muscle must be separately identified and given a pulse.

This then, should in theory, brake down into a wave form to be stored in a class or structure. Other wave forms are placed in the structure when two or more occur at the same time, time related?

So is curiosity a desire to produce a new wave form that can be related to existing waves in some structure, and that memory related to either pleasure or pain?

Just some thoughts on the subject?

Regards JD.

Hi jd

This is from an earlier post of mine:

As you know I am a painter and musician and curiosity is the main drive behind the creative part. Like, what will happen if that cold blue will meet an orange shape, square , round, triangular. Although I know the effect my curiosity is not quenched(?) unless I put that dot there to see if it works like I thought it would.

The same with sitting at the piano. I know a bit about harmonies and what happens when and at what time a key is hit. Curiosity though gives the whole process a different flavor. What will happen if I just do it the other way around? What if I play that section just a tad faster. Curiosity at its best. Many times disappointed but sometimes with an unexpected result. Curiosity becomes creativity in some way.

I agree, Ky.

Sorry. Here is the whole post #24

Hi Ky,

I remember reading the post. I don't play a musical instrument myself, but have studied singing for quite a number of years, I sing in a choir and off to the Eisteddfod every Easter. Finding the correct way to reach those high notes requires a lot of curiosity as to what is right and what is wrong, and if you have had any thing to do with singing you would be aware that there is much argument about it.

I remember when I first joint CR4, Del, Vermin, Randell and Fyz, and a lot of others, they had a good report with each other that one was a bit shy to put in one own remarks.

"Most of my curiosity nowadays is aimed at solving the conundrums of why people do certain things and others don't. "

I was born just before the second world war, in UK, we where bombed out of a few places, ending up in an under privileged dock area, some young people had very curious ways of acting, a strange belief of right and wrong, and they had discovered the answers to life? So the seed of my curiosity of how the mind works was sewn, and I think its an unending journey. I remember some where along the line some one wrote, quote " The hardest thing in life to learn, is that we are all the same".

Regards JD.

You are on to something Chris.

I have dedicated a chapter to my dad in the book I am writing. I saw him on his dieing bed and forgave him from the bottom of my heart. Even though I still have to carry the burden of what his generation had caused, I can handle it. Collective guilt is what it is called, I think.

In this case curiosity (to figure out what their motivation was) represented a great solvent and taught me tolerance and forgiveness.

"we are all the same"

Thanks jd, Ky.

BTW all the best for your new job(s). I wish I could have employed you but the fat lady has not even got on stage yet. Hope she's not on a hunger strike.

Good luck, Ky.

Hi Chris,

Just another thought ... again, possibly already commented, but not seen by me yet (one VERY LONG thread ).

I had always thought of 'curiosity' as an individual event ... the 'why' question being asked as a result of some former experience kindled by some 'spark'.

BUT ...

I believe it is a truism that now, partly owing to the speed of communications, there tends to be multiple discoveries of the 'same thing'. Sorry my citations are lacking, but aside from conspiracies and information leaks, I 'seem to recall' there being several situations where some 'famous' disclosure of some invention / discovery / research also revealed some parallel activity elsewhere. (gosh, I hope I am getting my point across ... even as I re-read my own words it seems a little vague )

The other slightly related issue becomes the 'timing' of some discoveries. While it is true that knowledge and understanding become the foundation for the next level of knowledge and understand, still, it is rather difficult to fathom that (within reason) everything that we need to know 'everything' is already around us. Is this the reason that some ideas are later acknowledged as being "ahead of their time"? Not just as it regards the earth-shattering discoveries, but also the elegantly simple ... I was just reading an article about a simple device that will fill sand-bags 5-times more quickly that conventional means. The need is real, the need is hardly new ... why only now is this 'invention' made?

SO, in considering the curiosity / innovation / inspiration issue ... well, I guess I am just left to be more curious .

Kind regards ...

As to programming curiosity (the original question)... I don't have a straight forward answer, but I might have a direction (or it could be WAY off... )

Have you ever looked into emergent behavior theory? It's been used in programming numerous AIs. The basic idea is that a behavior isn't a complex thing so much as a result of the interaction of a few simple rules. Perhaps curious behavior could be derived from similar sets of rules.

It might not be the answer, but taking a look in that direction might spark some ideas.

i have this question - this is a long - lovely length of replies that i have read most of but when i get notification of new ones how on earth do i get to just them without tracing thru the whole list that has already been made?

there is an area right below the original post, with a list of new comments, that you can mark as read everytime you go to a page, if you stay current you will only see a list of the posts you haven't read

Curiosity is passionate wonder about why things are as they are, and what could be changed if what is, is fully understood.

what is wonder?

Sweet - GA

excellent!!

just came across this gem...

"Curiosity has its own reason for existence" -- Albert Einstein

I'm having what it has, make that two, Ky.