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Join Date: Mar 2013
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Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/09/2013 2:23 PM

To generate super-heated steam mechanically, requires using hydraulics, as hydraulics are linear, example 3,000 psi times 10 = 30,000 psi

Next the pressure effect on water flow is also linear, in this case 3,400 meters a second.

From my experience you need to atomize the water and inject pulses to avoid destroying the system.

The atomized water clusters create tremendous Impact Heat. No external heat required to change to gaseous state.

As this only uses the energy needed to pump water, 10 H.P. will pump 450 lbs of water at 15,000 psi, creating super heated steam. ( 7.5 KW hr)

Why not replace old fashioned steam heaters, like nuclear power.

I'm not a nuclear power engineer, but can you produce 450 lbs of super-heated steam for less than 7.5 KW hr?

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#81

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/11/2013 1:48 AM

Listen, I just noted this is a comment above, but I want to make sure you see this.

.

IT IS NOT SAFE TO OPERATE THE EQUIPMENT YOU DESCRIBE!

.

We need to step aside from the bickering for a moment, because you are in real danger.

.

-You specified using tap water (which has chlorides).

-You further specified pressurizing a tank made of some grade of stainless steel to over 1300 psi

-Additionally you state you have measured the tap water contents of this stainless tank to be at temperatures of 575 F.

.

Those conditions are sufficient for a dangerous rapid type of corrosion that results in catastrophic failure if not detected soon enough.

.

Chloride Stress Corrosion Cracking... I don;t expect you to take my word for it, so please, for the safety of yourself and those around you, please take a moment to Google Chloride Stress Corrosion Cracking.

.

Please do not operate your equipment until you have remedied this situation. Right now you are working with essentially an unintentionally constructed IED with a timer set for an unknown length of time...that ticks every time a stainless tank is pressurized with hot tap water.

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#82

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/11/2013 3:14 AM

After pondering on this concept for a while now I have to ask why is it so complicated in order to do what is supposedly such a simple process of pressurize water to 30,000 PSI then blast it out of a electronically controlled diesel fuel injector nozzle (against some sort of apparently indestructible material yet to be specified) that converts the high energy super sonic water jet into what is apparently high energy steam that then drives a reciprocating piston type steam engine?

First off why cant the electrically powered motor that mechanically drives the pump be eliminated and the pump be driven directly off of the steam engine? Just with rough calculations that would reduce energy losses by at least 30% or more in that stage alone.

Second relating to the high pressure pump design using some 7.5 estimated KW's to produce a flow rate of 120 pounds per hour @ 30,000 PSI (55.44 cu in/minute) only to use 1.5 ml/second (~49.43 Cu in/minute) is wasting around 11% more energy than necessary in this stage. BTW my hydrostatic reference chart formulas suggest that given reasonable pumping efficiencies pressurizing .21 GPM to 30,000 PSI should only need at most 5 Kw of power. In short by the numbers you are using 7.5 Kw of electrical energy to do around 4.3 KW or less of mechanical work.

Third why does the injector/impact chamber need to exist at all? Cant the injector and impact chamber be mounted directly in the cylinder above the reciprocating piston assy eliminating the whole multi component assembly and one valve assy of each of the engines cylinders reducing the whole engine apparatus to something similar to what a large two stroke single valve type diesel engine cylinder assy is designed?

Fourth is there a reason that the reciprocating steam engine itself has to run at around 540 RPM opposed to running at 1200 or 1800 RPM that most direct drive generator unit run at eliminating the gearbox entirely?

So in summation I think that about half the mechanical possesses could be simplified saving at least half the initial input energy. Granted being that if the pump was directly driven off of the steam engine it would require an initial starting motor to get the system up to working speed, the same as a normal IC engine does, but once going if your input to output numbers are even remotely close to being true the thing should be able to run itself in a mechanical closed loop while still producing electrical power from the generator as well thus proving over unity by all mechanical means exists!

But that's just me.

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#87
In reply to #82

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/11/2013 9:53 AM

You ask many good questions.

First, I have discovered how to change steam mechanically, to build steam generators to replace electric boilers.

Fact. It takes 154 KW hr to run 450 lbs of steam an hr. This number comes from a famous manufacturer of electric steam boilers.

Fact. But after I learned how to create steam for about 5% of above manufacturer, I filed another patent, in Dec 2011. "Generation Of Steam By Impact Heating"

Fact. I have run a stream engine using Impact Heating, I would like to run the unit self sufficient, but isn't very important now.

Fact, for steam power plants, they can use any fuel they want, to run the hydraulic system, and make super heated steam for much less then they do now.

Fact. I believe either the German Corp. or the Japanese have the funds to improve upon my Technology.

I want to take the Time to Thank You, you are a real person

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#83

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/11/2013 6:30 AM

I accidentally found this on a specific website :

http://www.browniesmarinegroup.com/new-technologies/mie-marine-energy-project/experiments-and-test-demonstrating-mie/

I hope that there are not too much people which have been "MIST"ified by these demonstrations.

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Commentator

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#85
In reply to #83

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/11/2013 9:38 AM

Fact. The average Electric Steam Boiler.. In the World uses 154 KW an hour

to change 450 lbs of water per hour into 120 psi steam.

Fact I use 7.5 KW an hour to change the state of liquid water into super-heated steam 450 lbs an hour

Fact. There are Hundreds of ways to use this Technology

Fact. I am only the first person on this planet to learn how to create steam mechanically . We do not boil the water.

Fact people like you don't care about facts, but some large manufacturers of steam boilers do. In both Germany and Japan.

Fact, this is a tested new technology. I can generate this steam, using a 10 h.p. natural gas engine, to run the pump.

Look at the complete picture... you are better of reading then writing. go back to the web site, and study The True Cost of Steam

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#108
In reply to #85

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 11:11 AM

<...154 KW an hour......7.5 KW an hour...> There is no meaning to such units, as the kilowatt is already a rate of doing work.

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#86

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/11/2013 9:44 AM

It is difficult to believe that this thread originated in anything other than an automatic technical concept generator program...

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#88
In reply to #86

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/11/2013 10:05 AM

I have 7,000 hrs in research and testing.

My goal was to build a efficient steam engine ( which I have)

But I discovered how to create steam mechanically.

Electric Steam Boilers are used world wide. One unit manufactured

In the United States uses 154.4 KW to make 450 pounds of 120 psi steam.

Using Hydraulics and 15,000 psi, I make 450 pounds of super-heated steam an hour. the energy to run the 10 H.P. pump is 7.5 kw.

Thank you

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#91
In reply to #88

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/11/2013 10:39 AM

Here's a picture of "steam" being produced mechanically without boiling or high temperatures, kind of reminds me of the mist coming out of the "boiler"on your website.

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#92
In reply to #91

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/11/2013 10:44 AM

What part of Mechanically don't you understand.

You insult me, the cave man applied external heat

to a container, as do all Americans

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#95
In reply to #92

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/11/2013 1:18 PM

Can you explain why using an ultrasonic diaphragm to impart energy to water - without boiling it - is NOT "mechanical"? Dozens, if not hundreds, of humidifier models work without heating the liquid (like the "Vitek" in the picture). Many are made in, or used in America, by Americans. In this instance, cool mist is desired.

If such a diaphragm were part of a closed chamber pre-heated to 375 F, and with some amount of water pumped into it while powered up, in what way is the result not "steam"? Since the water molecules will be moving faster than prior to their being impacted by the diaphragm, their temperature must, by definition, rise . . .

You have been asked how the term "impact" relates to your chamber, and how the stainless steel avoids being eroded if impacted by the high-speed molecules. Why haven't you answered? In fact, there have been quite a few questions asked, that you have avoided: why?

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#99
In reply to #92

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/11/2013 3:20 PM

What part of mechanically don't YOU understand? That's a picture of an ultrasonic humidifier, it does not use heat, it uses the mechanical motion of a piezoelectric element to generate high frequency motion that causes cavitation of plain tap water. Although it looks like steam, it is not, it is a mist quite similar to what you get when you chop high pressure water through an orifice such as a fuel injector.

I'm sorry that you're so easily insulted, but I suggest that you get used to it. You came to a free forum, and you're getting exactly what you paid for. There are a lot of experts here, some of whom are paid to protect investors' from funding this form of "research" (been there, done that). Trust me, if your "science" worked as you purport, you would not know what to do with all the money that would come your way (I'd even sign up for the IPO), but it doesn't, it can't, and it won't.

Want proof? Simply do as others have suggested, take the output of your generator and use it to run your high pressure pump, you can even use an external power source for 10 minutes to get everything going, and don't forget to collect all that hydrogen and oxygen that should be the only matter that is in the exhaust of your engine. If your exhaust is only water then at least collect it and recycle it through your pump (funny how that dissociated water magically reformed back into water without the input of any energy, but that's another story).

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#134
In reply to #92

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/13/2013 5:11 AM

Dont insult yourself with your attitude, its not the way to go!

I have not been involved in the above discussion, but I followed it thouroughly.

You feel like the inventor that is misunderstood! Dont give up. If your can proove your concept you will convince even the opposing people in this forum.

BUT, you have to proove it! Get your units right, check your concept and your apparatus, turn it into a working solution where everybody can see that overheated steam. You already spend over 2 years on the development - make it worthwhile!

You came to this forum to challange us! We are taking the challange but you have to make it fair for us. Where do you capture the superheated steam? Why dont you put it through a turbine and let it work for you? Thats what superheated steam is used for!

Make electricty with it! The energy meter will tell us wrong or right!

Hope to hear back from you soon

Dearly IS

PS Word of caution! I am a sceptic and I do not believe yet what you claim to be true!

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#169
In reply to #134

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/16/2013 12:00 PM

Thank you

On Monday, we will run the steam generator, with and without our 15 KW electric generatotr. The used Flow International Direct Drive Pump had to be rebuilt. This is the first time I've had Piezo injectors. So I have full pressure in the fuel rail.

Prior I prove everything, I have run my engine with 1 old intensifier piston Ford Injector. What takes so long, to modify the Ford ICM, is impossiable with only soft ware.

I have a double source of energy, Impact heat ( all physics books have formula ) next the tremendous heat ( 1800 F plus) exceeds critical temperature of water clusters.

The most important test, is prove we don't boil water. It is very simple to mesasure this test, you have a flow sensor on input, then a flow sensor that measures any over flow. All our tests prove this, but now we can run 20 minutes or more. With 10 H.P. anything over 30 lbs an hr, beats the nukes.

Thank you

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#171
In reply to #169

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/16/2013 10:50 PM

If:

1.the expansion chamber or any part of your apparatus exposed to the pressures you mention (over 1000 psi) is made of any of the common type of stainless steel (you noted they are stainless but avoided answering details about what type of stainless) or if you are not certain of the type of stainless....

.

and

.

2. Any of those part are exposed to the temperatures you have noted (>500F)

.

and

.

3. You were 100% accurate in stating you are using tap water in your experiments...

.

.

YOU SHOULD NOT RUN FURTHER EXPERIMENTS OR OTHERWISE PRESSURIZE THE APPARATUS.

.

To do so would be to put yourself and anyone in the vicinity in danger of severe injury. Chloride stress corrosion cracking leads to catastrophic failure and from what you have disclosed, you have all the necessary conditions for this to occur.

.

Don't let your pride physically injure you or those close to you.

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#172
In reply to #171

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/17/2013 10:14 AM

I use 304 S/S 3 inch OD with 2 inch bore. I assume 1/2 inch wall is safe.

Flow International, recommends not to use pure water, so I filter it through 2 filters the first is 1 micron the second 0.05, they claim you need the ion content.

I used 4140 in my impact chamber, and I had to build my own injector module using the hydraulic unit with a intensifier piston.

I made this unit to fit 4 Piezo injectors. Prior to purchase of Flow pump, I used distilled water.

My impact, creates tremendous heat, running up to 600 injections a minute, increases the operating temperature.

I assume Chloride stress corrosion cracking takes some time.?

Thank you

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#174
In reply to #172

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/17/2013 11:06 AM

The reason not to use pure water is that pure water is very corrosive.

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#175
In reply to #172

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/17/2013 9:44 PM

With the conditions you specify SCC can be very rapid.

You detail several conditions that increase susceptibility to SCC:

-High temp in excess of 150C

-Cyclic stress (large changes in pressure/temp)

-Drying out on surface (causes concentration of impurities)

-PH below 10

-Significant amounts of oxygen present

- Possibility that residual stress exists from original manufacturing processes, i.e. welding, cutting threads, other machining operations...

- Possibility that small crevasses exist due to the design or original surface condition of the material.

..

.

Some of the reasons SCC can be so dangerous are:

it is often not readily apparent as it progresses,

it can progress so rapidly,

and failure is more likely to be catastrophic rather than gradual.

.

SCC does not describe macroscopic cracks (at least initially). The cracks are microscopic. It is even possible for a surface to appear shiny and smooth with severe SCC.

.

The non-destructive tests for determining definitively whether or not SCC is occurring/present are not readily available to the non-professional. Eddy current testing for example can give good insight into whether the problem exists, but this isn't something you can pick up at home depot.

Dye penetrant testing is more accessible, but unfortunately it is only going to give confirmation once a crack has made it through the entire wall.

.

There are other factors in your set up that may complicate matters. One example is the 4130 impact plate you mention:

4130 could either slow or it could accelerate SCC. If iron particles from the eroded 4130 coat or otherwise get stuck on the surface of the 304, SCC is likely to be exacerbated... however the 4130 might provide a degree of galvanic protection if in electrical contact..... net effect is difficult to know at this point.

.

.

Here is one reference. You can find many on the web.

.

The main take-away theme here is: You are cycling your equipment rapidly through extreme steam plant conditions, without the benefit of steam plant chemistry. That creates a minefield of dangers.

.

You need someone who can conduct an eddy current test to tell you your equipment has not already been affected by SCC. In addition to that, it would be unwise to proceed without making significant changes to your feed water to raise the PH, and remove things like Cl- and O2.

.

Don't assume 1/2 " wall is safe. In fact, don't assume the full 1/2" wall is still protecting you.

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#176
In reply to #175

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/17/2013 10:14 PM

Spoilsport. A Darwin award would be more fitting.

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#177
In reply to #175

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/17/2013 10:53 PM

And how many of us listened to our mother about firecrackers until the one day we blew a fingernail off?

Just let him play until he blows part of a finger off and then feel free to do your 'I told you so' dance.

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#173
In reply to #171

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/17/2013 10:44 AM

I have started to research this.

My tests involve pre-heat, then operation. At no time is the unit cooled, until

the test is over. Corrosion ? I only started, but feel my life time, for this S/S

product will never exceed total time 20 or 30 hors.

Thank you

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#154
In reply to #91

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/14/2013 11:48 AM

Site Administrator:

Please delete this entire thread and the inflamatory statements contained therein.

This thread does not make any contributions to the knowledge, understanding and learning of any of the participants.

This thread currently only serves to feed the egos of the participants...

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#155
In reply to #154

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/14/2013 1:17 PM

I agree, nobody does any math.

My Mother was wrong, she taught me Math was the universal language.

In 4 days on here, I learned nobody, does the math, and I assume its

because you need a physic's book for the formula.

Good bye

Please wipe this clean

Richard

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#156
In reply to #155

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/14/2013 1:24 PM

Good riddance.

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#158
In reply to #155

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/15/2013 7:49 AM

To be honest math, engineering, and physics terms all have their proper place and usage and you cant just toss them all together in a random mix and mash and call it good science.

Tossing a dozen or more random variations of metric imperial and rough commoners slang together does not make a language that is universal.

What you have shown us here is like listening to someone trying to speak English by using a mix of British English, European English, Australian English, Jamaican English, Canadian English, and American English words, terms, measurements units, and slang all scrambled together.

That's why no one is doing your math. It's not that no one can do it rather it's just too tedious to have to constantly cross reference everything and translate it to one single workable scientific format in order to understand what you are babbling about.

Pick one primary scientific format and stick with it until you are fluent at it and can make a presentable scientific representation of your work.

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#159
In reply to #158

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/15/2013 8:43 AM

Now if I was the OP. I'd take what I have just learned, and start to organize my data, references, and research. and then varify that it is understandable and makes sense and make it mor presentable.

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#160
In reply to #159

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/15/2013 12:23 PM

". . . if I were the OP. I'd take what I have just learned, and . . . organize my data, references, and research; then verify that it is understandable and makes sense, and make it more presentable." (slightly edited)

$100.00 says that he doesn't........... Any takers?

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#162
In reply to #160

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/15/2013 3:40 PM

After multiple re reads and looks at his site I am half tempted to try and recreate this Rube Goldberg system in my own simplified version and if it does work claim it as my own!

I for one can and have worked through the miss match of terms and units plus given my Industrial Maintenance tech back ground the electronics, hydraulics/hydrostatics, machining, and other related disciplines required are all within my present range of skill sets and applied knowledge.

A quick trip to the local auto salvage yard will get me a good used HEUI (pdf) electronic fuel injection system and control unit, I wonder if the OP knows about HEUI injection systems? , which according to the Bio fuels and non conventional fuels forums are capable of running at injection pressures exceeding 30,000+ PSI with very little modifications and will work with any sort of liquid.

After that for a base engine I would go with reworking a common 2 cylinder lawn and garden engine to work as a steam engine which in itself is not as difficult as it may sound. The pistons get re machined to replace the three original metal piston rings with a set of synthetic rubber lip seals, the same as what common hydraulic cylinders use, and the camshaft gets reworked to operate the original valves as needed for two stroke steam operation. (an old steam engine tinker at an antiques show showed me that some years ago. Apparently a very reliable conversion and does a good job of keeping the steam and water out of the crank case oil.)

Given that if the injection/expansion chamber assys could built right onto the cylinder heads, with carbide impactor targets, much of the mechanical multi step apparatus could likely be eliminated. This could also further simplify the IC to steam engine mechanical conversion being that no intake valve would be needed.

Connect that to a big DC motor along with the 3000 - 4000 PSI precharging hydraulic pump and I have my steam engine starter, generator, and injection control pump all in one self contained and much physically condensed system.

In theory any way.

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#163
In reply to #162

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/15/2013 10:31 PM

HEIU, was invented by Cat, then used by Navi Star.. and Ford. I used a 2003 unit, stock you have 7 to 1 intensifier piston. But volume is only 1.6 ml per injection, but the return spring is only 500 psi, so you start to open at 5 X 7 or 3,500 psi, this soft opening isn;t enough to shatter the intermolecular bond.

If you use any modified piston engine with standard connecting rods, it will not work. I assume you know.. Standard pistons are not round, I assume you know they are not the same diameter on the top and the bottom. For your steam engine you need new pistons that are both round and the same diameter, top to bottom. They still will not contain steam.. You can not use a cam shaft, I assume you have a good imagination but little if any actual experience. You would we embarassed . But if you want to build a steam engine, start with studing Abner Doble. You might look Jay Leno has one 1924 Doble steam car

I assume you know my steam engine, has a D valve, and linear piston's the rod is part of the piston. then the D valve opens the exhaust 20 degrees before BDC then opens the intake for 55% of the power stroke.. going up. This will be exciting, about this time, you will learn, steam engines use about half of each intake to warm the cylinder, as steam cools as it expands.

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#167
In reply to #163

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/16/2013 11:31 AM

I thought you left (twice) being according to you no one here knows anything.

What makes you so sure that I or no one else around here knows the details about steam engine design or regular IC engines either?

Just because I don't write a book detailing every dimension and spec needed to convert a IC engine into a basic steam engine doesn't mean I don't know how or know who to talk to if I run into trouble with part of the conversion.

As far as replication your work I am rather confident that I could figure it out and improve on it. I am very stubborn that way.

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#168
In reply to #167

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/16/2013 11:39 AM

I agree, you should be able to improve on my steam engine, it is a 1932 design.

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#164
In reply to #162

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/15/2013 10:43 PM

Study Steam Engine patents, you will find your ideas have been patented time after time, people try to squirt hot water 1200 degrees, into cylinders, they try putting heaters inside the cylinder, you can find people, with patents that squirt hot water into the cylinder, and have a glow plug inside.

My D valve opens after TDC or BDC .. and stays open 55% of the stroke, this is why all steam engine are low RPM and high torque.

Good luck,

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#166
In reply to #164

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/16/2013 6:46 AM

It's not about suggesting that readers wander off and study elsewhere. What is important is achieving reasonable answers to technical queries and engaging in worthwhile discussion.

This thread is going nowhere at present. Realising that would be quite an achievement.

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#161
In reply to #155

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/15/2013 12:54 PM

"In 4 days on here, I learned nobody does the math, and I assume it's

because you need a physics book for the formula." (edited!)

Utterly BOGUS! I did math in several of my posts, provided links to references, and showed where your "math" was dead wrong. I even asked for others, including you, Smokie, to check my work, but you didn't. Nor have you responded to multiple requests for clarification, or for answers to straightforward questions which were needed only because you failed to provide sufficient information, or made conflicting claims, or claims at odds with known physics.

I am not the only one who did math, asked for further information, or called you out on bogus claims. At least you were unbiased: you ignored virtually all of the pesky requests for real numbers or details, not just mine.

It is possible that you actually believe your claims. If so, you are not the first delusional poster on this forum, nor, sadly, will you be the last. It is apparently the nature of STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math) disciplines that people figure that they can string together a bunch of buzzwords and jargon from those fields, and dupe "investors". Or, incapable of actual analysis, somehow convince themselves that their own magical thinking trumps reality. It hasn't happened so far, and I will offer money bets that it won't this time, or the next, or the next . . . .

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#101
In reply to #88

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 6:54 AM

<...7,000 hrs in research and testing...>

Subject to scientific peer review in which publication?

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#102
In reply to #88

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 7:53 AM

Also, Superheated steam!?

What was the temperature and what was the pressure ?

This all a big joke. (7,000 hrs == average of 3.5 year. Good Greef! Should have been able to study for a degree in thermodynamic or something like that, in order to aproach this type of research...)

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#103
In reply to #102

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 8:01 AM

Daydreaming and your still on the clock.......... did that allot when I was a kid........

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#104
In reply to #102

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 10:17 AM

I personally spent over 7,000 hrs, on research and tests.

I assume you know, that many have tried to harness ( Quote from Cambridge Journal of plasma physics) " The loss of intermolecular bond energy in the conversion from liquid to fog must be the source of the explosive energy"

They ref. some old schools that tried, in the U.S. Harvard in 1907. World War in the 40's and M.I. T. about 10 years in the 80's, and Last 2 in 1999, Oxford and last Centre for Electromagnetic Research, Northeastern University, Boston. Ma. 02115 U.S.A Arc-liberated chemical energy exceeds electrical input energy. Journal of Plasma Physics Cambridge Unibersity press. volume 63 / issue 02 / February 2000 pp 115-128

My tests lead me to believe I harness this energy, if you do some research you will learn that water molecules at velocities of over 1500 meters a second, on Impact as they compress, shatter all the intermolecular bonds, liberating stored energy.

Nobody has a degree that teachs this, you have to read papers world wide, and take one piece from Japan another from Israel

They all use a small tube ( copper) and pass a Kiloampere current through the plazma. Observations leave little doubt, that internal water energy is being liberated by the sudden electrodynamic conversionof about one-third of the water into dense fog. " fog expels itself from the water at supersonic velocities.

I assume you know, surface tension energy per molecule increases, as the unit gets smaller.

Steam Expolsions, The Event San Antonio 1912, Good Friday Feb 9th 1852, I can't remember how to spell thre name, but river water into a red hot boiler, showered parts over 90 acres.

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#105
In reply to #104

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 10:44 AM

You need to read up on Chloride Stress Corrosion Cracking. You shouldn't operate your equipment. You are putting yourself and everyone in the vicinity in mortal danger.

.

.

On a separate note: You misunderstand the bonds that you are talking about.

The 'bonds' describe a lower energy state that exists in that condition than does if the elements are separate. This means that energy must be added to separate the elements. This is the same reason that energy is give off when hydrogen and oxygen burn to make water.

If on the other hand, you are referring to the forces that work to hold water as a liquid being overcome for a change of state to steam, the energy of those bonds is also in the direction of needing energy input, not in the direction of giving off energy.

.

But don't bother yourself with that right now.... just read up on CSCC and make sure your equipment does not pressurize.

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#94

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/11/2013 11:25 AM

'Smokie':

You keep switching between using 'we' and 'I'. Are there people around observing these experiments and possibly assisting you with the process and measurements?

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#96
In reply to #94

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/11/2013 1:29 PM

I think there might be more than just one passenger behind the wheel on his bus.

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#100

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/11/2013 4:27 PM

I suspect "smokie" has left the room. That's one way to avoid reporting upcoming failed results.

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#109

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 11:14 AM

<...3,400 meters a second...> is about Mach 8 at ground level. Oh, yeah?

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#111
In reply to #109

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 11:36 AM

WEb Site.. Typical projectile speeds original by U.S. Gov

Web site SEG Houston 2009 Internationl Exposition and Annual Meeting

Page number 2096.. This has a chart showing Velocities of pure water

at 100 C.

I hope you learn to research something you don't understand.

I discovered you lose velocity rapidly after .200 thousands. So our

impact happens in this range.

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#112
In reply to #111

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 12:25 PM

Your "citation" is insufficient.
As usual, your units are mixed up and meaningless.
Your post does not address the point PWS asked.

Just more drivel from the master.

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#114
In reply to #111

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 12:52 PM

So once again what are you impacting the water against?

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#116
In reply to #114

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 3:35 PM

This unit has 4 Piezo injectors, the Impact chambers ( all 4 are 304 S/S)

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#118
In reply to #116

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 4:02 PM

So you are shooting 30,000 PSI micro jets .006" dia at 304 SS from a distance of less than .2 inches and not cutting it to shreds within seconds?

Strait line or at an angled impact trajectory?

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#119
In reply to #118

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 4:10 PM

with the micro jet of 0.006 stainless will sustain itself for a short time, but the stainless will definitely erode.

I've been trying to follow this thread, but it gives me a headache....... It the focus of the micro jet that is not in question, with water, I'm thinking it should be a hard surface like a ruby or diamond like in the waterjet, but the problem with that is, is creating the 0.006" stream.....

, I think I'm going to sneak up on a sleeping cat, pull its tail and run..

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#120
In reply to #119

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 4:18 PM

He mentions the jet size in post 9 relating to the standard Ford piezo electric diesel fuel injector that shoots seven .006" dia jets at one time.

Aren't you taking notes?

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#121
In reply to #120

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 4:22 PM

In my defense I did say........"I've been trying to follow this thread, but it gives me a headache......."

but no, I was not taking notes........cuz I don't know which notes to take.....

btw, did you say a cat around here?

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#122
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Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 4:32 PM

No cats here. I think Del's in another thread. Cats usually have enough common sense to stay away from threads like this.

You can have my wife's cat, Mr Squeak. He is looking for a good roughing up today.

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#126
In reply to #122

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 8:52 PM

Ha! When I was growing up on the dairy farm, I had a three legged cat called 'Squish'...... Being a cat with nine lives on a farm, one guess how he got his name

I had enough here..

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#127
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Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 9:15 PM

I think every farm come standard with a three legged cat. We had one when I was a kid (Partially my fault), my grandparents had one (Dads fault) and going by Mr Squeaks general curiosity/disregard about moving machinery he might make himself into the next one.

Perhaps I should start studying up on emergency kitty triage? I will be doing a lot of dozer work this summer.

My wife is not amused.

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#128
In reply to #127

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 9:20 PM

Hey you just described my cat.......

Fastest three legged cat I ever saw, too.

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#129
In reply to #128

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 9:26 PM

Strait line speed or a slightly circular trajectory?

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#130
In reply to #129

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 9:36 PM

Straight line on the alley behind the cows, under and thru a 6 foot high pile of chopped straw, out the other and out the back barn door without skipping a beat.

I sometimes think, that cat just wasn't right in the head..... You know what I'm talking about? :)

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#138
In reply to #129

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/13/2013 10:06 AM

Nothing else matters except test results.

I am going to run today of by friday at the latest, the steam

generator using my 10 h.p. system.

I will run super-heated steam for 1 hour.

Input is pre-heat 1300 watt heater.

10 h.p. 7.5 KW total 8.8 KW

Average electric steam boiler uses 154 KW for 450 lbs

Commercial electric boiler will create about 27 lbs of steam with 8.8 KW

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#139
In reply to #138

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/13/2013 10:51 AM
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#140
In reply to #138

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/13/2013 10:51 AM

Once again, your units are all off.

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#137
In reply to #127

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/13/2013 9:17 AM

"I think every farm come standard with a three legged cat." Boy, ain't that the truth! A part of a leg, his tail, chunks of ear, an eye... between the machines, the cold weather, coyotes, foxes, bobcats, hawks and so forth a farm cat has an environment rich in opportunity for becoming other that whole.

Lyn recently told us of a farm cat that is quite lucky to not be missing some very important parts.

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#146
In reply to #137

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/13/2013 2:43 PM

The first indestructible cat I remember was old mother cat named Ms Kitty (named after some charter in some old western dad watched I think).

Missing both ears to frost bite one winter, missing the tail due to having froze it off sitting by the water heater vent for too long after it shut off another winter, was stepped on multiple times by horses, and I think she was chewed to bits at least twice by a neighbors dogs. She may have been missing part of one or two paws as well but that may have been another cat we had.

I think death liked to pick her up then pet her until the spark almost went out then set her down and leave her with us for another year. She really did look like a zombie kitty fresh from the grave the last few years. No ears, no tail ,some places hair never grew, whole body was crooked, legs didn't bend like they should or all go the same direction when she walked.

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#147
In reply to #146

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/13/2013 7:13 PM

Oh man, that is a great description. A friend of mine had been adopted by a cat that very nearly fits that same description.

Everytime I looked at that cat, I would inevitably think about the movie Pet Cemetery or the likely outcome of DIY pet surgery for the overly enthusiastic .

'Plato' did have half of one of his ears and actually an amazingly intact big poofy tail that made him look always as if he'd just been shocked.

The best part was when people who see him and realize he was friendly, many would bend down say 'awww' to pet his ugly endearing head....and Plato would try to meow a response with his very broken voicebox invariably emitting something that sounded like mix between a growl and a hiss...with strong tones of emphysema thrown in to boot....

..which usually shocked the person sufficiently that the would quickly withdraw their hand, and try to distance themselves from Plato...who would follow them because he still thought they intended to pet him.

.

.

A little later Plato went blind. Apparently blind cats don't give a mouse's donkey what they look like, he completely stopped grooming himself. He also had a difficult time navigating the area with wire frame bar stools...and I know it isn;t nice to laugh at blind cat continually bumping into furniture and issuing meows that were probably requests for 'help' or questions of 'why', but sounded like a threat of castration or murder in your sleep.... but it was really hard not to laugh sometimes.

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#124
In reply to #119

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 8:24 PM

After 3 years of designing impact chambers, and length of injections. Just the same as water jets, cut metal with a continuous flow, they also cool the Impacted water.

I use a diesel ICM injector control module, I have infinate control of injection like the Ford diesel, except mine is modified, it has no Ford sensors.

From day one, I wanted to liberate the intermolecular bond energy. Same as Neal Graneau from Oxford. For over 100 years people from Harvard, M.I.T. and others succeed in liberating this energy. But can't harness it.

If you study the test equipment, the test results from Oxford, it wasn't hard for me to imagine that Impact could shatter the water molecules. W/out detail, it gets boring and expensive. Other then the Ford parts, everything was designed and machined, even if it failed on the first test.

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#123
In reply to #118

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 7:48 PM

Ford Diesel injectors atomize the fuel, much different than

the Flow water jet.

Also, each pulse is only 3 mili seconds long each

pulse will flow .285 ml through 6 orifices in the

Ford injector the new ones are 0.005 .

This is way, it doesn't cut anything to shreds. It is 90 degrees,

the inside of each impact chamber is machined to fit.

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#131
In reply to #123

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 9:38 PM

"...injectors atomize the fuel..." [post 124, with my added emphasis] "...atomized water clusters..." [initial post]

IF the Ford Diesel injectors (and who the hell cares whether they're from the right or left bank, BTW?) atomized the water, they would be splitting it into individual atoms of Hydrogen and Oxygen, not into molecules of H2O, or even the normal diatomic molecules H2 and O2 in a 2:1 ratio. The statement claims that the water is no longer a liquid, no longer water vapor, not even molecular gas particles, but ATOMS. Yet, you also refer to the output as "water clusters"; these things are incompatible, and cannot both be right (but they COULD both be wrong...). In reasonably ordinary conditions, hydrogen atoms will recombine into molecular H2, and oxygen atoms into O2 - but this process liberates energy; separating the atoms requires the INPUT of energy (post 37 covered this pretty nicely). Yet you claim to be obtaining energy from such separation. And STILL, there is no water, much less "water clusters", whatever the hell they are supposed to be. Droplets? If so, then atomization did not occur.

"Expansion chamber 3 cubic inch." (Post #9) "The 3 inch in ( S/S) dia. expansion chamber has a 2 inch bore." (Post 37: I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that the "3 in" here indicates O.D.) "...you lose velocity rapidly after .200 thousands." (post 111) "...the inside of each impact chamber is machined to fit." (Post 124). A 2 inch diameter bore means Pi cubic inches of volume per inch of length; therefore, your 3 cubic inch chamber must be 3/Pi inches long, or 0.9549" long. So, your injector must reach in to within 0.200" of the far wall to maintain velocity - but that can't be right, either, since they are at 90 degrees, and there for need to send their flows to the circular walls, nearly an inch away 9minus the radius at the orifice locations). Or is my interpretation of ".200 thousands" wrong - you have not answered a direct question -? And how is a 2 inch diameter chamber "machined to fit"? It's either 2 inches in diameter, or it isn't; clearly the tips of the injectors are far smaller than 2" diameter.

Sorry Smokie, but I think that you're full of MIST, in the German sense of the word.

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#135
In reply to #131

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/13/2013 5:25 AM

Mostly correct. However, the term "atomization" does not mean breaking down to atomic size; it only means small droplets such as in fuel nozzles for combustion equipment like boilers.

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#115
In reply to #111

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 12:57 PM

"where THE SAME engine is shown as on your MIST Energy site?"

Busted?

Confirmed?

Irrelevant rambling reply that has no connection to the actual question?

Cast your votes now!

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#117
In reply to #111

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/12/2013 3:48 PM

Sorry, page 2096 is on my web site.

It doesn't matter anyhow, I have rebuild my pump, and will

document again that our energy comes from liberating the intermolecular bond

energy. In 1907 at Harvard, then for 10 years at M.I.T. in the 80's then

again in 1999. all above liberated the energy, but could not harness it.

After over 100 years, I'm alone in this, and its simple to test.

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#143
In reply to #117

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/13/2013 11:27 AM

OK, I finally found page 2096 on your web site. Yes, it says that velocity is "positively linear" relative to pressure. What that actually MEANS is that when pressure goes up, so does velocity, and in linear fashion - that is, the equation defining the relationship would obey the form Y = AX + B, and plot as a straight line in Cartesian coordinates. And sure enough, the test results for pure water, for water saturated with methane, and for water saturated with CO2 are indeed straight lines within the pressure and velocity ranges shown.

HOWEVER: you have ASSUMED that the slope of the line is 45 degrees, meaning that A = 1. This is not the case. When X is tripled, the values for Y change by less than 20% for the steepest line (pure water). Therefore, A = 0.1 AT BEST. In other words, three times the pressure yielded less than a 20% increase in velocity.

The scale marks on the graph are fairly coarse, so accuracy is limited, but my actual calculations from several attempts at measuring the intercepts yielded a 17 - 18% increase - all measurements were below 20% rise in velocity for three times the pressure. 50 MPa of pressure showed a velocity of about 1.45 km/s, and pressure of 150 MPa gave about 168 km/s.

While the slopes LOOK steeper than that, it is only because the Y-scale is truncated, beginning at 1.40 km/s, and ending at 1.90, while the increments on
X are at 0, 50 MPA, 100 MPa, and 150 MPa. Clearly, if this relationship is truly linear, velocity must go to zero when pressure is reduced to zero - an intuitively logical result.

According to your claims, velocity should have reached about 4.35 km/s at 150 MPa. In the Japanese testing, it did not happen - not even close.

For anyone interested in checking or disproving my analysis, please visit http://mistenergysystems.com/19059/dsp_agent_page.php/195894/Comparison_Chart/Comparison_Chart and go to the bottom page displayed above the footer info section. I would appreciate seeing whether I've done my math correctly - and if I'm wrong. please show the corrections. Thanks!

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#208
In reply to #143

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/26/2013 10:51 AM

It appears you are correct. I don't get close to 4 km sec. It would be interesting if I did.

At present, my biggest problem is temperature of feed water. Prior to current Piezo Injectors, I used injectors with a hydraulic intensifier piston.

This allowed water from one source and hydraulic pressure ( oil) from another allowing water at 200/210 deggrees and oil pressure to run intensifier piston from another.

With my water jet, the best I can do is 130 degrees, to get 210 degrees requires a heated coil to get proper feed water temperature. My new coil requires 18 ft, to heat 2 pounds of water 90 degrees per minute. Plus 130 gives me 220 degrees.

Thank you, however Horse Power to drive a hydraulic pump is linear, at 15,000 psi the power will be twice the power at 7,500 psi.

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#232
In reply to #208

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/29/2013 9:58 AM

What is your coil made of? I'm thinking of adding one upstream of my water tank...installing an coil with 18 ft (I probably don't need all that) to heat my water sounds like an excellent way to save on expensive heating from the utility company.

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#234
In reply to #208

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/29/2013 11:51 AM

"At present, my biggest problem is temperature of feed water." and "With my water jet, the best I can do is 130 degrees, to get 210 degrees requires a heated coil to get proper feed water temperature. My new coil requires 18 ft, to heat 2 pounds of water 90 degrees per minute. Plus 130 gives me 220 degrees."

But your Patent Application says "... it has been subsequently discovered that the water does not need to be heated and may be provided at lower temperatures." [my underlining] Are you going to modify your application?

And BTW, can you tell us the application number so that we can obtain alerts to patent office actions from the USPTO? I located a different application for a patent, your # 20122293949, but not for this one. Or has it not yet been published, despite being posted on your website? I note that it is called an Application for Letters Patent in one place, yet elsewhere the concept is described as "patented." Does this indicate recent developments on that front?

[For reference, these are paragraphs 10, 11, and 12 of that application, not 1, 2, 3 as the software so generously relabeled them for me. Bleeeep!]

  1. With reference to Fig. 3, there is shown a graph of pressure as a function of time for a test operation of the apparatus of Fig. 1 to generate steam. The atomizer 14 had seven orifices, with each orifice having a diameter of 0.007 inches. The injector 12 was operated to supply 10 pulses of 0.3 ml of water each, one after the other into the impact chamber 16, at a pressure of 15,000 psi. Each pulse required 8 milliseconds. The expansion chamber 18 was equipped with a strain gauge operational to 425 ºF, with 1 mv on the gauge equal to 4 psi of pressure.
  2. In conducting the test operation, the water introduced into the injector 12 was maintained at a temperature of from about 190 to about 210 ºF. However, it has been subsequently discovered that the water does not need to be heated and may be provided at lower temperatures. In addition, in conducting the test operation, the impact chamber 16 was initially heated to a temperature of 405 ºF, however, it has been subsequently discovered that it is not necessary to supply any initial heating to the impact chamber 16, but that it is advantageous to provide heating to the expansion chamber 18 to maintain the steam routed thereto at the desired state.
  3. With reference to the graph of Fig. 3, it will be seen that after the injections the strain gauge had a reading of 225 millivolts, which corresponds to approximately 900 psi, it being understood that water in an environment of 900 psi corresponds to steam at a temperature of 531.98 ºF. Accordingly, it has been discovered that steam can be very quickly produced. Furthermore, such steam may be maintained at the desired temperature, provided it is contained in an adiabatic vessel.

"The expansion chamber 18 was equipped with a strain gauge operational to 425 ºF ..." and "it will be seen that after the injections the strain gauge had a reading of 225 millivolts, which corresponds to approximately 900 psi, it being understood that water in an environment of 900 psi corresponds to steam at a temperature of 531.98 ºF." These statements apparently describe actual testing. Yet, taken together they show a problem: the readings indicate that the strain gauge is about 107 ºF above its upper temperature limit. This MIGHT just mean that it isn't calibrated there, and extrapolation MIGHT still be close - but it could also mean that the readings are essentially meaningless, or that the gauge is ready to melt down into a puddle, or otherwise fail.

Oh - and if you're modifying the application, you might want to correct "mv" in paragraph 10 to "mV". In general, units of measure derived from proper names (such as Volta) are given uppercase letters.

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#244
In reply to #234

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/30/2013 5:26 AM

That's one badly written patent, from a patent writing PoV. Far too narrow a coverage to justify the costs...which makes it far easier for someone to find a way to circumvent the patent and thus render it worthless (assuming the technology works).

And yes, I do know about writing patents, having written a couple and spent a lot of time reading and editing them. I wouldn't say I'm an expert, but I know the basics and the writer of that one clearly doesn't.

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#246
In reply to #244

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/30/2013 10:31 AM

"And yes, I do know about writing patents, having written a couple and spent a lot of time reading and editing them. I wouldn't say I'm an expert, but I know the basics ..." I agree - certainly not a great application (can't see the Figures referenced, much less their numbered features). I, too, have both written and served as editor of patents written by others at the same company [actually put into my job description that I would do so]. All of my patents have expired, long since. My first was the only one that I didn't write; the company I worked for was bought out, and poor business conditions in that industry soon had me going elsewhere. Many years later, after I had gotten several patents, I idly put my last name into the search at USPTO to see if I had any relatives with patents, and discovered that the take-over company had filed for a patent on an idea of mine, obtaining it without ever notifying me, and forging my signature in the bargain! I never received the "One U. S. dollar and other valuable considerations", or a copy of the patent - NADA! The patent had already expired when I first learned of its existence. And, the company that perpetrated this had itself been taken over, so there wouldn't have been anyone to sue even if various statutes of limitation had not run out.

Side note: at two different companies, I was given the task of drawing up the inventions of others, and in both cases, the sketches & drawings I made were used as the basis for the patent drafters' work. Some resulting illustrations were tracings of my work with "patent office" shadings added, and others had no changes except numbering of features.

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#245
In reply to #234

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/30/2013 8:49 AM

The temperature of feed water, is in relationship to the pressure or Impact velocities.

The above is true for generating steam as per patent.

Currently I'm attempting to run my 113 cubic inch V-2 steam engine continuously with 130 degree feed water. I'm restricted by the fact, I'm limited to 200 PSI.. only 387 degrees steam. With free flow, from the expansion chamber I can't maintain the heat needed, as the gas law takes over.

Yesterday, I lost some gaskets,(another test) the pressure exceeded 2,000 PSI, this is easy with 130 degree feed water. I can make high pressure, and high temperature steam at will. It is easy to destroy parts, in a sealed chamber, each injection adds heat and pressure.

Thank you, I added the line for lower feed water, during testing last year. As it specified it needed to be heated.

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#209
In reply to #143

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/26/2013 11:56 AM

It is odd that it would appear as a linear relationship over anything except very limited ranges.

.

When considering energy, typically pressure is related to velocity squared.

.

This is generally true for both incompressible and compressible flow.

.

It seems the range would have to be very restricted or the scale something other than linear for a conversion between pressure and velocity to appear close to being a straight line.

.

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#210
In reply to #209

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/26/2013 12:29 PM

"It is odd that it would appear as a linear relationship over anything except very limited ranges." I agree completely - yet that's what is shown on the graph. Worse, it stands to reason that at zero pressure, you'd get zero flow, so the line OUGHT to pass through the origin (0, 0). With the Y-scale truncated, that would force the result to graph as a severely curved line. And, yes, I'd expect the result of pressure changes to approximate 1/2MV2. Clearly, flow near walls, through a nozzle, around bends, turbulence, etc. can be expected to cause some deviation. But, a curve with its convex side toward the upper left, and very generally following the 2nd power shape, ought to result. The paper's results appear to show a straight line over a factor of three pressure range, which seems unlikely . . . I'd think of that as failing your "very restricted range" criterion.

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#211
In reply to #210

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/26/2013 1:20 PM

It certainly does fail the 'very restricted' criteria. Can you link to the paper so that I have a chance to look it over?

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#212
In reply to #211

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/26/2013 2:57 PM

I went to his website (www.mistenergysystems.com), clicked the various tabs, and EVENTUALLY discovered that under "Studies" there was a section called "Comparison Chart", and at the bottom of that section, a copy of page 2096 showed the chart. Try clicking on http://mistenergysystems.com/19059/dsp_agent_page.php/195894/Comparison_Chart/Comparison_Chart and scrolling to the bottom.

Since ONLY that page was shown, I didn't know who the authors were, what the experimental setup was, etc., but the graph, at least, was there. It appears that the title of the article was "Velocity Properties of CO2- and Methane-saturated Water", and that it was published in Meeting Notes of the SEG conference in Houston in 2009. Using that information, I located the entire paper at http://www.rpl.uh.edu/papers/2009/PAPR556_Han_CO2_C1_velocity.pdf. I have done no more than skim the rest of it, since:

First; only that single page is used for reference by "Smokie", and

Second; it appears to contradict Smokie's statements.

FWIW, the word "slope" is replaced by "slop" in multiple places within the paper. Knowing this will simplify reading it.

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#213
In reply to #212

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/27/2013 12:45 AM

Thank you!

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#214
In reply to #212

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/27/2013 1:12 AM

That paper appear doesn't nail it down specifically, but
... it looks like the speed of sound was being measured for different temp/pressure combinations.

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#225
In reply to #212

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/28/2013 5:02 PM

There is a book available to read via Google, called Chemical Dynamics in Extreme Environments. Starting on page 20 (and going on for about 55 pages), there is an explanation of some of the Raz and Levine work that Smokie has referred to. Nothing jumps out to support Smokie's apparent dream of a free (over unity) lunch, but then Smokie has not, so far, provided a description that makes much sense, given his propensity for using units in strange ways.

On the 9th (see post #30), Smokie seemed ready to do some tests, and everyone agrees that such tests would be easy to accomplish. What is the continuous output power with a continuous input power of 7.5 kW? He seems to have all the equipment in place, and promised results the 15th. On this page, you can see the steam engine set up to drive a generator, making the measurements very easy. But still... no results reported.

One might think Smokie is trying to hide something. But perhaps by the end of this week, he will have his engine running and will produce some test results. My expectation would be that the water will condense shortly after impact and that the "steam" engine will move from the solid water circulating it it. Overall efficiency from electrical source to generator output would be perhaps 10%, given small motor losses, the incredible flow restrictions, and the small generator losses.

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#226
In reply to #225

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/28/2013 6:34 PM

Thanks Ken

I have been following this thread because it is interesting to see how bad language, communication skills can kill a basically good idea. Not that I am endorsing the technology just saying that parts of the system could be applied for something I have been working on, in theory. If I ever come to publish I'll make sure I'll be using proper terminologies. I'll still get flack but that is what I would be looking for when approaching third parties.

I wonder how this team is coping with the escapades (the unguided missile thing) of Smokie. Not even sure if he is part of the operation.

http://mistenergysystems.com/19059/dsp_agent_page.php/195884/The_Engine/The_Engine

Why doesn't he hire an interpreter and avoid all this friction he is causing here? He must have recognized by now that his style is not very much appreciated here. I wonder what his motives are.

Enjoy your Holidays, Ky.

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#227
In reply to #226

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/28/2013 7:23 PM

Maybe the friction is part of his process:
Friction---> heat---> steam---> turbine---> mechanical energy.

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#228
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Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/28/2013 7:28 PM
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#230
In reply to #226

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/29/2013 3:13 AM

Ky,

Don't let the treatment Smokie has received intimidate you about presenting your own ideas.

If you have done some background research and generally have a good grounding in the basics of whatever idea you are running up the flag pole, CR4 can be reasonably accommodating if someone is getting the terms wrong, or has a misunderstanding.

The corrections offered might not necessarily be made wearing 'kid-gloves' depending on how recently someone like Smokie graced CR4 with his gospel, but if the correction is accepted well (i.e. acknowledged and changes implemented...assuming of course the correction was valid....if it isn't valid other members usually are quick to counter the correction and defend the original post) no one is going to dwell on a issue that has been rectified.

.

While Smokie's language and communications skills are realms of boundless opportunity for improvement, those characteristics are not what really triggered the response.

People who posses only very rudimentary English language skills frequently ask questions or start discussions here. Sometimes the OP has had little exposure to science. Even with those difficulties, members here often go a long way trying to coax out the necessary information and provide useful advice.

.

If someone were trying to elicit disparaging remarks here in CR4, it would be hard to beat Smokie's tactic of initiating a thread under the initial guise of requesting input, opinions or technical assistance, only to reveal shortly thereafter that the OP had no genuine interest in learning anything, and that the main purpose of the thread is to serve notice that the world should respect them for their infallible genius and creativity achieved by years of rigorous self delusion and magical thinking.

.

Long story short...er ...well, too late for that...

..to sum it up: CR4 can be very accommodating if

1.you have taken the time to learn the basics

2. you are genuinely interested in learning something or need help with a problem

3. that you make an effort to provide basic information (and any additional information requested), and that you utilize constructive criticism constructively (not personally/defensively).

4.that you avoid being belligerent, pompous, squishturdy, or otherwise emulating some gaping smoldering rectum.

.

Thanking those who have may helped and throwing in some 'good answer ratings' to the deserving, can also go a long way.

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#236
In reply to #230

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/29/2013 7:09 PM

Hi truth is not a compromise

Don't let the treatment Smokie has received intimidate you about presenting your own ideas.

Nothing has been able to intimidate me so far. The principle idea was born in 1984 and has been growing at a steady pace. Like a hobby really although sometimes working with very dangerous prototype setups. I did take warnings from this community serious when I had posted some questions here some time ago.

What holds me back is the propriety information which would have to be published, putting my invention in the public domain and making patenting impossible. Not sure if you are fully aware about the patent process but it is a hard act to follow. I have applied for 2 patents in the last year. Quiet simple things. During that period I had long talks with my patent attorney. She is a very astute and technically minded professional.

In short I told her that I have an idea which could do such and such and that I could see a car or generator manufacturer picking it up. She is usually very inquisitive but said outright that she could not encourage an inventor to have a go at dealing with a large corporation. I took her advice. Then this thread which reminded me of how not to approach the "Elite" and those it takes to get something up and running.

I am considering waving all my IP rights and go ahead anyway. If it works the way I think it will, then the advantages it brings out way the loss of pride for not being the certified inventor. Not only would this next step require 100% attention towards everything including manufacturing and assembly, it would take up too much time and resources. It would be a 24/7 365 and a bit exercise. Other trades would also need to be involved because I have not enough hands on experience with modern engine control systems which would help my thoughts being realized. Ah, and the funding, say no more.

I have been thinking many times about involving the members here and to be honest I have already some years back. Their discretion in this matter was and is appreciated. Most of you CR4 'old timers' here will know them and they have become friends over the years. If I ever get to publish here I will let them know and have them assist me getting more people on side to further critically analyze what I have come up with.

Glad to say that it is rocket science.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Kind Regards, Ky.

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#239
In reply to #236

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/30/2013 12:00 AM

Has you patent attorney spoken with you about the inexpensive option of filing a PPA (typically done concurrently with working up full package for normal submission)?

A PPA is a good tool to alleviate the exact dilemma you reference of not being able to talk with potential partners/customers/vendors without risking patent rights.

.

A PPA is pretty cheap, very quick (It use to be one page, but I haven't looked since the changes a couple years ago) and affords you protection for 12 months so that you can speak freely without worrying about disclosure endangering the patent.

PPA cannot be extended, so it is important to be certain that you can file the complete application within 12 months....

.

Here is a link.

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#235
In reply to #226

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/29/2013 6:14 PM

Not even sure if he is part of the operation.

He is. Smokie is Richard Aho of MIST. One of his patent applications is this one: US20100293949 APPARATUS FOR RECOVERING ENERGY FROM WATER.


He has been granted a few patents in the area of power transmission.


In the water application, he says "Energy is released from the water in an amount greater than the energy supplied to convert the water to gas. Thus, it has been discovered that water may be utilized according to the disclosure as a fuel to generate power."

Were this statement actually true, Richard would be phenomenally wealthy.

Of course water is not a fuel*. In this particular application he is using electric heat to raise the water temperature. He seems to have abandoned that idea, and now thinks that using mechanical energy is the way to go. Many of us remember tilting a tube full of BBs back and forth in physics class. The temperature goes up (by an amount smaller than the energy expended to do the tilting.)

If only this stuff worked by magic.

* If one supplies the right sort of energy to water, it can be broken into hydrogen and oxygen. These gases can be recombined (burned) releasing much of the energy that went into splitting the water. The energy released is always less than the energy required to split the water.

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#237
In reply to #235

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/29/2013 7:42 PM

Thanks Ken

Didn't want to spend too much time finding out who is who. When I saw the hessian bag around a part I thought I'd seen enough. Still surprised about the other hardware in place.

The energy released is always less than the energy required to split the water.

Yes, but.....

We have in the past been part of the HHO threads and we both know or should know all about it. My previous OT post refers to some of those discussions. Nothing has ever come out of them. We knew that.

The but is a way I have come up with which agrees with all we know and still gives several advantages to the combustion of standard fuels and the reduction of emissions. No free lunch here just less hardware and better atomization of fuel and inline produced additives, eccellerents.

I'll get onto the the other two CR4ers and ask them what they think about publishing. This will take some time because once it is out there I will have to respond and at the moment time is scars. It would also require a website where CAD's and animation videos could be shown.

I'll be in touch, Ky.

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#240
In reply to #237

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/30/2013 12:07 AM

Most important to me, is I'm able to change state of liquid water to gas mechanically.

It's all simple physic's, the energy required to pump liquid water is simular to pumping oil. The difference is mostly happens after 15,000 psi, something to do with water compressing.

Take any number, do the math, water clusters act like solids at 15,000 psi and 1700 meters a second. You will find the specific kinetic energy (J/kg) is the same.

However the tremendous heat only lasts momentarly, some papers have it at 120 nano sec. I don't know. But if you can contain this heat, it drops down to ambiant temperarture.

W/out explaining my mistake today, in three seconds I had over 2,000 psi and blew out my gaskets.

Thank you, but the results of my tests exceed the 30% results from Oxford

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#241
In reply to #240

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/30/2013 12:14 AM

My communications with you have come to an end. Stay safe, Ky.

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#249
In reply to #241

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/30/2013 11:12 AM

Thank you

Richard

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#238
In reply to #235

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/29/2013 11:47 PM

Thank you, I beg to differ, I will not try to explain, but the article below shows that a few universities have released more energy then required. I assume you will give Oxford, Northeastern In Boston, and M.I.T. some credit ????

"Arc-liberated chemical energy exceeds electrical input energy"

I can't find the paper, but Cambridge Press has published it in about 2000

they claim they can do this at will, it concerns recovering energy from liquid water, they believe. intermolecular bonds release the energy.

I know you might not believe Oxford is qualified, but M.I.T has also released this energy from fog. After 10 years they couldn't harness it.

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#242
In reply to #238

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/30/2013 12:42 AM

'....I assume you will give Oxford, Northeastern In Boston, and M.I.T. some credit ????....'

Smokie, that isn't the way science works. Your most recent statements confirm what was suggested by some of your earlier statements, namely: you have profound misunderstandings about science and scientific publication.

.

Giving a paper credit because it was authored at Oxford or MIT is like deciding a car isn't in need of repair because it is a Mercedes. Mercedes tend to be reliable, but problems do exist.

.

It may help if you consider what purposes are served by publishing scientific work.

The motivation to publishing scientific papers isn't some philanthropic duty to disseminate new truths to the world. And although ego is involved, that is not the critical purpose publishing serves.

.

The truth is that the research isn't complete when the research is submitted for publication, and that publishing plays an important part in vetting the assumptions, processes and conclusions.

Peer reviewed research is better generally than non-peer reviewed research, and this is not reason to publish.

.

It isn't just that not all researchers are top notch, or that even decent researchers make flaws. Science requires a rigorous critical review of ideas regardless of the author.

.

Einstein even made retractions in response to peer review.

.

This facet isn't just some oddity. It is one of the key strengths to science. The willingness to change to a better answer requires the acceptability of having been wrong, and the elimination of the view of any individuals or groups being infallible.

.

Beyond that, it isn't just that it is utterly stupid to accept the conclusions of a paper without reading and understanding the research, if critical review is not rigorously performed, the quality and reliability of the research is significantly diminished.

.

There are no infallible science popes. Scientific publications are not scripture. Forgoing rigorous review of publications not only leads to misplaced trust, but also is harmful to scientific publishing itself.

.

.

.

On a related point:

Why would you half-site, a paper you cannot find, and attempt to use it as validation?

Are you drunk?

'...I can't find the paper, but Cambridge Press has published it in about 2000

they claim they can do this at will, it concerns recovering energy from liquid water, they believe. intermolecular bonds release the energy.

I know you might not believe Oxford is qualified, but M.I.T has also released this energy from fog.....'

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#229
In reply to #225

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/29/2013 2:16 AM

K Fry:

.

Thanks for the perspective. It is difficult deciphering with certainty what Smokie might be talking about/referring to, and your interpretation is helpful.

.

The Raz and Levine publication certainly seems to be a source of several of Smokies oft repeated scripture-esque science buzz phrases.

The Raz and Levine publication is strictly theoretical/computational. There is no experimentation because the conditions being considered are so difficult to obtain. The contraption Smokie has described has no hope of generating conditions anywhere in the vicinity of those being discussed by Raz and Levine, nor anywhere near having to worry about the special dynamics under consideration therein.

.

The funny thing is that the figures Smokie quotes as the water velocity at various pressure/temp are clearly not comparable to what is being discussed in Rax and Levines work. I'm also fairly certain the 'velocity' Smokie has been using/quoting is actually just the speed of sound in water are various pressure/temp.....something he might have thought was describing some velocity attainable if pushed through some nozzle to STP from various temp/pressure....but who knows really.

.

On a different note:

As easy and definitive as a decent test could be, I think it is a bad idea to encourage Smokie to perform such testing or in any other way pressurize his set up.

.

I have repeatedly tried to warn Smokie about Chloride Stress Corrosion Cracking. As he describes his set up, conditions are present for very rapid SCC, and failure is typically brittle/catastrophic.

.

Although a test wouldn't take much time to perform, I doubt tests are likely to end quickly, since the probability that Smokie has created an over unity device are essentially zero, and because those continual failures are unlikely to convince Smokie that he is no match for the laws of thermodynamics.

.

Even pressurizing the set up for a short time is not something reasonable to do since he has no way to monitor for CSCC.

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Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 81
#215
In reply to #209

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/27/2013 9:45 AM

W/out detail, everything has so many variables. I need pressure regulators (2) to control the pressure inside the Impact chamber.

This changes the impact heat. Example with 500 psi inside the combination Impact and expansion chamber. You maintain ambient temperature of 467.01 .

Next having 500 psi, inside the impact chamber, effects the results. You can imagine the injection is under 25,000 psi.

Many people expect "Flash" steam, as they don't understand that atomized water clusters impact 500 psi before impact to solid S/S .. at velocity of 1700 ms.

We are learning something new every week, I have no ref. to study about injecting water clusters into a pressurized anything. All tests I find use both ambient temperature in a open test.

Thank you

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#216
In reply to #215

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/27/2013 1:02 PM

So what type of thermometer (Brand and model) are you using to be able to measure precisely to 467.01 degrees?

"as they don't understand that atomized water clusters impact 500 psi before impact to solid S/S "

Huh?

When did 500 PSI become a tangible substance instead of a measure of relative pressure?

Do you ever proof read your posts and comments before submitting them to see if they are even remotely close to being grammatically and scientifically correct?

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#218
In reply to #216

Re: Why Not Use Kinetic Energy to Generate Steam

03/27/2013 2:46 PM

I use international steam tables. They are avaliable on the web.

You will learn the Pressure/Temperature Relationship is always the same for pure steam, 500 psi has steam temperature of 467.01

The same 500 PSI increases in density. The specific volume of steam at 500 psi 0.93 (cu ft/lb)

At 212 degees F. ZERO PRESSURE the same lb of steam has a volume of 26.80 (cu ft/lb)

500 psi, is a tangible substance, compressed air or steam contain energy

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