CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

Some people who come here demanding answers, can be quite rude and insulting, even argumentative.....A lot of posters request just a link to information, and a lot of links, most in fact, are self-explanatory in that they contain the very question in the link...

I don't think this is meant to single any one person out. It's just a pleasant little reminder for everyone to think about. We've seen people who take advice very poorly, especially when it contradicts what they think to be true, but we've also seen people that are unfortunately grouped with the aforementioned people and get the short end of the stick when they try to inquire about something (even if it does sometimes seem trivial to us).

Even for the more basic questions, some people find CR4 using a google search, see that there is a wealth of knowledge here with some smart intellectuals (such as yourself!), and try to find an answer to a problem or confusion that they're having. Certainly, it won't always be difficult questions, and a (different) google search would most definitely get them where they need to go, but that just means they need a little guidance in finding that answer. Teach a man to fish, am I right?

It'll just have to work until we can get something like this in place:

Edited for language, original can be found here:
http://xkcd.com/810/

Teach a man to fish? What do you suppose we could teach these people:

Now, should we attribute this to a cultural difference or a language barrier? Or, is the spokesperson for La Petite Aroma ignoring common sense?

I am hesitant to offer an individual thread, but I am weak and cannot stop myself. From this thread, the entire original post: "Have head lights but nothing else?? New charged up battery mo mo no go??" It bothers me that he probably did a GOOGLE with that exact phrase, and CR4 was the #1 hit. There are hundreds more informationally devoid OPs, we all know it. Some discussions get better after we coax out more info, some simply die because the OP doesn't return, and a few get worse.

Well Doorman,

Thanks a lot for citing a thread that has me making the most (8 out of 25) posts, none of which actually helped the OP. Not that anyone could have helped them.

Now, in response to the mods:

I'm one of the most intolerant members here, and I admit it.

That doesn't mean that I don't help people, I just find it difficult to waste my time typing their title into a search engine when they could have done it themselves.

I also am vexed by some members who obviously do not have the competence to do the jobs they claim to have. Sometimes I make my disdain public, especially when their questions demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge of the subject at hand. I thought G********s for Du****s was funny and not too demeaning.

But, it is your site, you make the rules and I like it here. I never visit any other sites. That should be obvious by looking at my post count.

I think the mods do a great job of controlling the site and don't have any problem with the present group.

I am amazed by the diverse level of intelligence presented here. Both by the utter lack of common sense shown by some and the brilliance shown by others.

I also like the banter and fun.

I think it is a valuable resource and I like it here.

Cheers.

^{that sounds like that was an ex cr4 admin}

I use CR4 quite a lot. Sometimes to answer questions, which I hope are useful to the poster, and sometimes to ask questions, which on occasions I sometimes get a 'workable' answer. It is all very interesting and helpful.

I recently asked a question about 'voting and consensus'. It might not seem an engineering question but it was in connection with committee work in setting engineering standards. Where opinions from engineer's would be useful.

A brief answer from SolarEagle with a link to Wiki was helpful and I spent the rest of the day reading up the subject - from which you can imagine a number of supplementary questions arose. I went back to CR4 to ask them, and to say thanks to SolarEagle, but my post and the reply from SolarEagle had completely disappeared from CR4 - what happened to it? Who decides what is off-topic or a good answer, or what gets posted (censored) ?

In general what surprises me at times is the extent some people go to when answering questions. The amount of time and effort must have taken ages to prepare.

Great credit to them.

Useful when:

· a second opinion is needed

· another option or brain storming

· therapy when having a bad day. (sometimes used as a support group or an intervention)

· entertainment from the over-unity members and guests

Things have improved from the since new rules on registration from the guest agitators came in but there are drawbacks.

· boredom from a slow day and posting.

· over-unity members and guests arrogance

· oversensitive posters

· posters who do and do not receive the direction for answers or even the answer itself that they seek

· people who are long winded........^{like myself}

for the most part, it is an exchange of ideas and brainstorming that contains both reinforcement and critical thinking. And with critical thinking comes challenges which are misconstrued as sarcasm at times.

All in all, I still see it as a good resource.

What are "over-unity" members?

Overunity members give more than they take.

^{Sort of seems the other way around, doesn't it?}

Now you want me to give an example. You form your own opinion.

And Doorman, there are also underunity members too.

How should we respond to an obvious "homework" assignment, many which are posted here. I know it bothers a lot of people and indicates the poster's not following the rules. I personally just ignore that kind of post. I also resent those who ask for information that is right in front of their nose. My take on it is; they don't want to waste their "valuable" time looking it up; better to waste MY time instead.

Finding information on the web is so simple, a caveman could do it. Fact is; we are not as internet savvy as we think. Most times all one has to do is type in any word or words into the search engine and up will pop thousands of hits. A question like: "How many volts in a dry cell battery" can be answered simply by typing in "dry cell battery" or even just "battery" in the search engine and everything you want to know is there. Asking the same question on this forum doesn't do the asker any good nor the responder who may have to look it up for the answer. Again, best to ignore such requests rather than insult or make someone feel stupid.

I also noticed some who get upset (uptight) over what they think are stupid questions. They respond with insults or admonishments and although I can symphasize with them, I try not to get caught up in the fray. Better to ignore. Does it bother me? Sure it does. I have been belittled for some of my opinions in the past, but remember; "what goes around comes around" and someone with a smart alex answer will slip up and get hit where they are most vulnerable. We are not all geniuses, or close to. If we were, there would be no reason to visit this forum.

My two cents worth.

Ronseto-

While I agree with most of what you have to say, except the "Finding information on the web is so simple..."

I have been searching the web since the old DARPA days. Even then, it was difficult, unless one was atune to the particular jargon of the topic of interest. Today it is even worse. Thousands of "hits", when 90% of them are marketing hits, are pretty useless when looking for technical information. When one is dealing with English as a second (or third) language, this becomes even more difficult...Everything you want to know may be somewhere in the multitude of hits, but how do you find it? I usually skip to page 3 of a general search, before really paying any attention to the hits.

Unless, of course, I know to start my search with GlobalSpec.

Actually the web has more information now then it ever has and had been improving with more.

But I see two trends in web search

1.)

one is the amount of information can be so vast that it has to be trodded through and prioritzed

and 2)

is the information is becoming less reliable to a point that it has to be verified.

Its great to have CR4 to bounce what you have found.......^{atleast the people that do look prior}. Because some of the members here seems to really like the challenge and they are good, and come with very good responses.

You see, CR4 is not a good source, it is a resource, The good source is its CR4 members.

More and more I'm finding data searching on the internet is like finding needles in the haystack, only:

1) The hay is being added much more quickly than the needles.

2) Needles are being removed.

plus, there are alot of weeds in that hay.

one time I found a six pack of Schlit's in my uncles hay barn. It was warm. I drank it.

that can happen to.

You find something your not looking for.

I agree with this. It used to be easier to get relatively accurate info. Now the first hits that come up are often irrelevant, often behind a paywall or just slick entertainment. I have a resonably successful youtube channel and advertizing is enabled on some of the videos. (So I get a few dollars). But it is a deal with the devil. Google actively promotes the moneymaking videos. (I know this because one day I disabled revenue sharing on a video by mistake and views halved for the next couple of weeks until I fixed it!) And lots of people pay google to promote their videos. Some of my best stuff (in my opinion) does not have advertizing enabled and it gets a tiny amount of views. I fall back on wikipedia more and more but they are becoming as messed up as youtube. Case in point "airlift pump" is a wikipedia page by the maker of the commercial geyser pump so it has a bunch of links pointing to the geyser pump website. An ordinary guy corrected it a while back but it changed again almost immediately. A few years ago, I wanted wikipedia to put in the pulser pump (around its 20th birthday). (But they told me to piss off because it is "experimental".) Now it is in but the text almost takes a potshot at me. And they have a vast inaccuracy "The working principle of the hydraulic air compressor and the pulser pump is exactly the same". (The pulser pump has several working principles because it is a blended device). On wikipedia you are not allowed to comment on something that you are close to (which seems fair to me) but that has not stopped the geyser pump guy taking over the airlift pump page. He even has his geyser pump patent application picture on the wikipedia page for the airlift pump! Skipping to page 3 is an interesting tactic, but how long before they tailor your hits so that page 3 is junk too?

CWARNER7_11: You wrote...

'....Thousands of "hits", when 90% of them are marketing hits, are pretty useless when looking for technical information....'

.

Finding information on the web is about to get much easier for you....

.

When you want your search to exclude marketing hits, use www.scholar.google.com

TO THE ADMINS:

Please resist the urge to delete the previous post.

It does contain a link that is not explicitly explained...

The brevity of the post could be misinterpreted as rudely dismissive...

The entire comment could be viewed as not being on topic and not being of a subject distinctive of engineering....

....but (as self serving as this statement may seem) this comment is a good example of the type of advice that I come to CR4 to receive as well as give.

I have used google scholar before. Works wonderfully when I am searching for things like "The Second Law of Thermodynamics". However, when I search for "Sta Rite Pump Curves", I get a hit "Archaeal nucleic acids in picoplankton from great lakes on three continents", at the bottom of page 2 in the search. I gave up on page 6- no sign of a Sta Rite pump curve...

Absolutely, if you don't have anything to contribute or are disgusted with an individual trying to get his homework done for him, the best thing to do is ignore the thread. The user will go away.

We don't delete homework questions off the bat because sometimes it's hard to tell if it is indeed homework. The question may sound naive because it's coming from an engineer exploring a different field. Also, there are some users that don't mind helping with homework questions, and the students are future users of CR4 - do we really want to turn them away?

I love your last line about none of us being all-knowing geniuses! The different levels of expertise and varied backgrounds of the people here are what make the forum interesting.

I think the goal here is to discourage those who have nothing to contribute, but how to do that without "offending" them. There's that word again, "offend". Someone, somehere will be offended regardless of what is said. You can get many people to agree on the same thing, but never 100% of the people. There has to be a line drawn somewhere regardless of who is offended. Who decides where that line is drawn? Again many different thoughts. All we can do is agree to disagree. Some will get offended along the line, but that's life. Just toughten up and get a life. My other 2¢.

I did a post about a "lean away" greenhouse recently and the first post in reply was super ignorant.

"so much text to say nothing... hope you are amused! BEUF

!"

(I have no idea what BEUF means but there was a video playlist link too, not just text.). I did get a really good reply too (from usbport) which confirmed and quantified one of the things I suspected. Also, not a lot of people realize how much direct sunlight comes from the northeast and northwest in summer. The thread helped clarify it for me and others. sollumis.com shows your light situation on any day of the year with a couple of mouse clicks. I don't stop working on projects because random idiots do crappy things but it does sometimes stop other people giving the thing any respect or contributing something useful. And this meant that I had to find sollumis all on my own. (Would have been really nice if someone else found it). I have been trying to visually represent this seasonal change to the light for years in other projects. Without the ignorant post more people might stop to ponder and to think but with it, people just see "flame war" and move on quickly.

So, sure my first post was not great but it does question why everybody who does a lean-to does it almost identically. And it does give logical reasons why I question it.

I got surprising light effects in the greenhouse, (parts of the north wall illuminated from 6 pm to after 8 pm) and this aught to get an engineer to prick up their ears and take note. But it hasn't really happened and I suspect the first post contributes to that.

Anyway, ignorant posts far down a thread cannot be avoided but when they happen first thing, it is a total turnoff and sometimes other vacuous people join in and kill off anything good altogether..

How do you recognise 'obvious' homework questions? or in fact naive questions? and does it matter.

On important issues when I was at work (I am retired now) I had to make decisions that depended a lot on the information I was given. Part of the problem was to judge the value of answers to questions, usually from salesmen, who were there to 'sell' their products. There was no internet in those days, nor did I have a network of contacts to call on, so I only had my own knowledge to go on.

In this scenario I developed a technique of asking questions, some that must have seemed 'silly' (but I knew the answers to) which enabled me to judge the value of answer to all questions. Thus make decisions with a high degree of confidence.

Now we have CR4 to post our questions.

By not responding to an obvious homework assignment, you have reduced the number of posts related to an obvious homework assignment. There is no rule against posting an obvious homework assignment.

How should we respond to an obvious "homework" assignment...
Don't!
Next!
Del

CR4 is a Great Resource, Period!

Some lazy people don't like being told they are being lazy and see it as negative.

Most answers can be found by searching CR4, or the net, but the lazies don't bother.

English skills are something we just have to deal with, but I take objection to the "Texters" that want an engineering or trade questions answered in TXT Code.

Great Site...I like it here.

Just wish the Home Work Texters would bugger off!

Great Job to the Admin Team

I think it is a great site, and i learn a lot just reading about questions outside of my field, i try to help with my limited intelligence , whenever i can.

I can understand why some professionals get annoyed with some of the questions asked. I don't know if you ask a question that CR4 tells the asker to first search CR4 database and the inter-webs.

but when i see some of the questions i go like;

I joined a hobby forum once which seemed full of elitists, my post where sabled down by long time members, after some non-friendly replies, i just left.

When you start a new question thread on CR4 this block of text appears above the text box where you enter your thread title and question:

Tips for Posting on CR4:

• Look for answers before you post. Search CR4 or use a search engine to see if you can find the answer to your question.
• Provide as much information as possible. The more details you provide, the better the chance that someone on the site will be able to help you find an answer.
• Give some thought to your post title. Don't use "Hello", "Question" or "Help". Also, simply saying "DC Motor" is not enough. Be specific, e.g., "How Do I Install Replacement Brushes In My DC Motor". Keep it professional - post titles should be written in title case without excessive punctuation.
• Do not post the same thread multiple times. Duplicates will be deleted.
• Include your country/region if needed. Some questions can only be answered "correctly" if people know where you are in the world.
• Do your own homework. CR4 is not a homework cheat site; however, if you have questions about understanding concepts or how a portion of a problem is derived, these types of questions will be accepted.
• Post all advertisements in Commercial Space. If you are posting engineering-related press releases, sales fliers, product announcements, or descriptions of your company and the work that it does, please select Commercial Space as the appropriate forum. Please post only one notice for your company. The CR4 admin will remove additional posts and we may delete them all if we feel you are simply spamming the site. Select that forum from the list below.
• For more tips see our FAQ.

I'm not sure who, if anyone, reads that text. It seems like the majority of people, when registering for a new account on a website, just click the button/check the box to say they agree to the terms without reading them. It becomes a space you ignore so you can get your post up faster.

GA Randyl.

And excellent post SavvyExacta. All your points are spot on.

And yes, I have seen a marked difference in the general atmosphere lately. CR4 was getting a really bad reputation from a whole lot of my peers, all across the country. I'd give recommendations to visit this place, and then days or weeks later they'd get back to me with negative remarks about the way various members would treat others on here. Most had no wish to deal with any of that, even if it wasn't against them personally, and even despite the good points of CR4. So their stays here were short. Actually, even I took a couple extended breaks from here... to regroup, and try to let some of the bad experiences fade from my memory.

I hope they come back and give us another try now. And I will continue to try to spread the word. The info I've gotten from here has saved my butt more than once, over the years! And hopefully, I've also contributed a thing or two, and at some point, have made someone's day or job or hobby better.

It's an extremely valuable resource, as far as I'm concerned.

And a big Thumbs Up to the changes!

My feelings, exactly. GA.

CR4 is very useful site for engineers but questions should be complete with relevant information before publishing. Once published many questions are asked from OP to clarify on most occasions. It is a waste of time.Someone should go through each question and obtain more data before publishing. Regarding websites it is advisable to publish a list of websites for each equipment like motors,transformers,generators, ups, rectifiers,speed control,battery,compressors,turbines,engines,definitions etc etc so that members would refrain from asking basic fundamentals.

I have had jobs in the past where I was told to ask questions. What do you ask, if you don't know what the question should be? After some knowledge is gained, the questions will be there to be asked and answered.

All links provided by participants are not for buying components.Many explain technical details given by experts not found in text books.

You will find a lot of technical references included in the GlobalSpec storehouse of knowledge, also providing information not generally provided in text books. Not all references found on GlobalSpec are simply for buying components. When I am looking for technical information, I generally skip the generic sites and start with GlobalSpec and Engineering ToolBox. Even when the GlobalSpec links connect me to a manufacturer, this is better than connecting to a reseller who hasn't a clue as to the finer technical aspects of the products they are pushing...

Best way to avoid such problems will be to edit all questions and replies. Many questions are irritating and many answers also some times insulting.

I am also getting tired of useless answers like "use google" or "your not qualified to do that" Seems this just adds to post count nothing more. Looks like many of these posters have limited work experience and have never been given a task that they were not qualified to do. This does happen in the real world and sometimes bosses don't want to hear that you can't do it.

Internet searching can be a problem for some people. Key words can be a problem if you don't know the correct term. Somebody that always uses "ties" but never knew they were "tie wraps" will have a problem. So it's better to knock them down and kick them rather than help them!

Glad this topic was opened, at least we can blow off steam!

I come here to laugh and learn. CR4 members are creative, intelligent, and witty. I found this site looking for information and I return because because of the great sense of humor among the people here.

Thank you all for lightening and enlightening my days!

I may not post/reply on a regular basis but I read CR4 daily just to gain knowledge. At my age learning is still a fun thing! However, the most disturbing thing I learn is how many "engineers" seem to be hired into positions that must require some formal education or experience, and from their questions prove that they don't have a clue as to what their job requires! That really scares me!

I try to follow even the most over-the-top discussions on black holes etc., and always learn something. To me learning is what is all about, helping when I can is great, seeing others solve a problem and teaching is wonderful! Keep up the great service!

I agree with what you're saying Tom. I also often just read but don't get involved until I can either help, or I need help. But I'm here often, regardless.

But it should be remembered that, as Savvy pointed out, oftentimes engineers are asking questions outside their own area of expertise.

People write things that may or may not make sense to you, or to me. To infer that to mean that they don't have a clue as to what their job requires is a giant assumption that will not withstand any debate based on logic. You, and I, do not know them, their job, their employer, their aptitude, interests, etc. I wish people would engage the text, if they wish, which includes responses. If you believe that you have an alternative explanation, or can identify an erroneous statement, by all means do so. The rest of us now have two sides to consider. We use the context of our own lives and knowledge to decide what to believe. That is not disturbing to me. That's what I really like about CR4.

This is the sort of thing that drives us up the wall.
It is just inadequate on so many levels.
One of the most dangerouse things is when you just don't realise that you don't know! One is torn between trying to help and banging one's head on the leyboard.
like most things in life, you generally get out in proportion to what you put in.
Del

I don't ask for a lot of help here, I just do a search and usually someone has asked my question before. I use this site very often. I don't post much, but it has been a very good resource for me. I build machines for a cabinet door company and hit a snag now and then. Then I come here. I also like to read up on posts that interest me. I would like to thank every one here. A lot of helpful people here on CR4. Thanks again.

P.S. It is pretty entertaining to read some of the stuff.

Well stated and a good remeinder for all of us. And your final paragraph sums it up neatly in a small and well articilated package.

Thanks.

Lou Bindner

.

I agree with Redfred 100% when it comes to safety issues. We as professionals have an obligation to insure that our advice/recommendations are not applied in such a way that individual or public safety and welfare are not negatively impacted. However, I can understand the situation where, having contacted an appropriate "expert", one has questions regarding the recommendations of said expert, and would like confirmation through a second opinion. It can sometimes be difficult to distinguish between the DIYer and someone looking for confirmation of received technical advice, especially with the language barrier issues. The best solution in this case would be to suggest that the proposed operation is not something that should be attempted by someone not knowledgeable or experienced in the techniques or technology involved- in a polite way.

I agree with redfred also.

Problem is when one puts a statement where safety has been over looked or ignored. one will object and point out the seriousness of the issue of safety, and then be taken lightly or ignored.

What happens:

• Some may ignore it and move on and let it go
• some keep banging their head trying to be political correct and being nice, still getting nowhere
• some escalate it, and call a spade a spade. and be labeled as aggressive or not a very nice person.

Life is full of personallities, its too bad that can't be realized.

Re Phoenix911

"...some escalate it, and call a spade a spade. and be labeled as aggressive or not a very nice person..."

But does this work? Do these people get things done ? Are they successful ?

I recognise the latter! - I am in a situation at the moment where it could be me.

It would be useful to know how to deal with such a situation.

I'll list a situation that happen to me,

A young machinist was setting up to machine a UHMW round bar that was about 10 feet long (Over 3 meters) , I saw him sticking it in the tail stock of the lathe, with the machinist being young. I stop and talked to him on what he was doing in front of his suppervisor, after he told me, I told him to make sure you support that round bar sticking out.

He said he would. But he didn't.

Half hour later, he turned on the machine and the tail just wiped around, knocked over a setup table.

Of course I was upset and this is putting it mildly, ask why didn't he support it. No response.

His supervisor volenteered this information. He said he saw him set up without it supported, but didn't do anything, because as he said that I told him already, and added that is the only way for him to learn is from his mistakes.

My reply was, At the expense of whose safety among other things that I said.

I was upset about the young engineer, but I was disappointed with the supervisor who was an experienced machinist.

His supervisor could not understand why I was mad at him, he felt it was the young machinist fault.

This is how these things happen. You understand one interpretation of a comment on safety that seems silly to you so you believe you can ignore any possible consequence from giving out information.

My use of the term authority is not legal authority or the idea that one must seek guild permission to do an engineering task. When one works on an extremely complex machine with many varied hazards there must be one authority that coordinates and documents all work on that machine or disaster will eventually happen. It rarely is the one circumventing this authority that gets hurt or killed, too. So your personal advice here or elsewhere may have been the root cause of my cited accident and you would never know.

When there is no recognized and respected authority in place one can quickly get an infrastructure like these wiring nightmares.

BRAVO! Well said.
I just fitted a new gas boiler in my home*. I was checking about purging gas pipes on one plumbing forum and met the 'safety' nonsense. My work is self evidently safer if I know how to purge gas from any pipe I'm working on and also how to purge the air from it when I've finished.
I did find the information, but didn't actually need it as a compression joint allowed me to dismantle the pipe and do all my soldering on the bench. The boiler install info told me how to purge after fitting.
A competent DIYer working on his own home will often do a better job than a 'qualified' professional as there is no time constraint which encourages the professional to cut corners.
Del
*Arguably I should be 'gas safe' registered. I say 'arguably' as the legislation merely states a 'competent' person, but then confounds this by adding it's own restrictive definition of 'competent' which is surely a bastardization of the English language.
(That's one reason why I didn't blog the work here. Although I did ask related question about adding a boss onto cast iron pipe)

"CR4 Member Disclaimers", in regards to advice given, sounds like it should be an entirely new thread, if it's worth discussing.

These last few comments are what I was trying to get at in my comment about being scared in #28.

Competence or addressing incompetence?

This may be getting off topic, but it does should the value of one's peers because of CR4

As far as your post 28;

At Least Have Some Experience

I have been left go because of addressing incompetence.

And better off for it,......... in the long run.

Will I still do it? Yes, but I will have better contingency plan in place for the consequence.

If you walked into a bar and asked a dumb question (instead of getting it answered a at the tourist bureau) ... especially where?

a pub in the english countryside?

a bar in the outback of Australia?

a bar in Manhattan?

a bar in the hood?

you have many options in the bar; kicked out or asked nicely to leave... a lot of mean staring and sarcasm... or a good 'ol beating, depending on whether it is happy hour or midnight... sometimes the police might even get called. You should at least have some idea of what you are getting into before even walking in... observe.

It is wiser to approach the wild animals slowly... and see if they bite, before offering oneself as food.

:)

Chris

Yeah, looks like by now everybody who is following this conversation and watches the CR4 space from outside the cage would either not put the hand in or if she/he feels like doing so - gets bitten.

But we will have to decide if we want to bite or not.

Dear all

I found the time to read through all of the thread and no regrets here. Even if sometimes things get a bit nasty we are all not trained diplomats. The Pub analogy is fitting, in a way, but were I am the size of the last fish caught is more important than anything else.

I am not even a trained engineer but an inventor. With out the help, guidance and encouragement I have received in CR4 I would still be in the workshop trying to find out things on my own. Some advice here might have even saved my life or avoided injury.

This must be the most enjoyable site for anyone seeking more than just a link. I received friends over the years and could have only found them here. Just a shame some of the old guard has withdrawn.

Roger, if you are watching, please except my apology for being such a provocateur.

I like it here, Ky.

...And another thing!
There's no such thing as negative space...
Or is there?
Maybe we should ask Jorrie?
Del

The inward curve above the hips is negative space. the curves above are positive.

I'm Positive.

But I can see how you could miss it.

You. Are. A. Cat.

Milo

I was 14 or 15 when relative to the others in the class , I was pretty high up there on science knowledge and I laughed loudly at a stupid science question from the smartest girl in the class (who had missed lots of time due to illness). It was actually a really smart question and the science teacher praised her for even noticing the thing and had great difficulty answering it.

It put me in perspective and I was (and felt like) a total aaah hole. Hopefully, I have learned a bit from the experience. Some people here never got hit with that humility stick and maybe I need another beating with it. It helps to hold back and think before answering.

Another thing is cliques. They are everywhere online and in life. People rush to defend their "friends" who they have sometimes never met but share some ingrained view. Even when they have made asses of themselves. This is not as bad as penn state or religous institutions but cliques are part of human nature and maybe many good answers could be clique's coming together to defend their own. (Perhaps software could deal with it?)

GA from me.

I especially appreciate that you anticipate and make concessions for the likelihood that many others lack your level of access to at least some of 'the standard engineering utilities'.

Lack of access to the first utility you list is a severe handicap that seems to occur with increasing frequency.

Also, congratulations on your superb non-native English fluency.

It worked!!! We (well, Yamdankee) got you to finally post something, shameless lurker!!!

For my part, I prefer to consult authoritative, recognised sources for the really critical stuff which must be accurate, but sometimes just finding the stuff is a real bitch. It is here that CR4 really shines: folks may not know the answer (or they may) but they sure as heck know where to find it - or know who does know - and it's not always obvious, lemme tell you! Which leads me to a corollary to "Half of the question is the answer:"

Sometimes half the answer is calling the damn thing by its correct name!

(I'm really guilty of this. You'd be amazed what I've called stuff - or maybe you wouldn't)

I like this forum's social aspect too, and very much so. It's really nice sometimes to talk to your peers and those in related professions who don't first require a short course in engineering terminology just to understand what you're bluddy talking about. Nerds of a Feather Grok Together. It's not that others aren't just as interesting (sometimes more so - and this coming from a geek), but like most people, we have our interests. Ours just happens to come with its own peculiar language: GeekSpeak.

Cheers!

"The first few replies to a thread will often set the tone of the whole discussion. An early snide remark will drive the OP away and all subsequent requests for clarifying information will go unanswered by the OP. This leads to an apparent lynch mob effect as one reply after another abuses the now vacant OP."

It would be great if CR4 used some proactivity and removed early abusive posts before the value of a thread is completely lost. I got lynched on the lean forward greenhouse thread and the usual suspects jumped in and joined the mob.(Apology if you are proved wrong would be great, folks) but a lot of "men" here don't own their mistakes.

Ruined the thread. And the lean forward greenhouse does have merit. (It got featured on instructables and was put on their homepage for a few days). Another thing for CH4 to consider is a change to the good answer format. I think it is been used by a clique of old farts as a currency to validate each other. Maybe by a couple of cliques of old farts. I think CH4 is advanced enough that they can tweak the system a bit to give good answers a weighting. Maybe something like, if you dole out a thousand good answer ratings per month (to one person or 5 ) , you use up your good answer mojo? System can still work but the internal workings should be opaque to the user. Some people routinely say when they gave a GA too. Is that looking for a GA in return now or later? Anyways, I think the Gods of CR4 have left the building. Nothing changes. So much of the engineering discussion has a political taint to it. Quite a turn off.

Gaiatechnician,

You have a very good point. It seems like the first post reply to a lot of comments gets a "GA" even if it doesn't seem to (me, at least) be a very good answer or even a snooty answer. It seems like there is an undercurrent of cliques or mutual admiration societies.

Some sort of system that tracked the GA would be pretty useful in weeding this out. Removing unhelpful posts or just moving them to an "off topic" area would help.

Jon.]

The GA thing is easily sorted - Use a facebook style 'like' which will show who 'liked' <whatever> post. A GA is no more than a 'like' anyway. Similar applies to OT.

Gaiatech,

I enjoyed your post, although I do think a thicker skin might work out better for you.

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Like you I would also like to see posters more consistently owning up to mistakes and making amends for transgression. I don't think this can be imposed from the top down though.

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My favorite part of your post was noticing that after you typed 'greenhouse' and began attributing things to 'old farts', you changed the name of CR4 to methane ('CH4')! Twice, even!

.

That is priceless.

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"Like it or not, those who first get to a thread of a new poster make the CR4 first impression. We only get one chance to make a first impression. Our first impression is getting very ugly."

Absolutely. We've received feedback from people who have posted here once, received a nasty response, and never returned. Some tell their friends not to bother visiting CR4.

The Admin team does its best to mark early unnecessary replies OT. We also contact people privately in cases like this and ask them to not post if they can't add anything constructive.

People are (in my experience) more likely to complain than thank (if they make any comment at all). If I encounter a new company/person/whatever and don't like it, I usually walk with no comment. For anybody to add 'I'll tell my friends not to visit either' smacks of petulence. Negative feeback is statistically skewered. The double edge to the blade is that you cannot know how many people simply walk away, so your point is valid. However, anybody so impatient as not read all replies and check how the site works first is unlikely to spend more than a picosecond looking at GlobalSpec before going elsewhere because they could't locate a specific flange or whatever.

A goodly number of flames I've seen here are not down to people having different first languages. It's often down to limitations of discussion in a written form. The nuance of spoken communication is easily lost. Perhaps one of the guidlines should be, 'if you feel somebody has annoyed you, take deep breath/check it out next day before replying'. Not one of my greatest talents, but I've been genuinely grateful for the occassions admin have slapped me down for hasty reaction. As mentioned in my previous, we tread a very delicate and unique path here - generally serious discussion, but in an amiable and informal way. I hope the people in suits can see what a terrific asset they have. It's the only reason I'm eager to try follow this discussion and make some input. If CR4 goes all serious (like your average computer website) it will wither and die within weeks.

Should CR4 go down the pan, I will alter my will to give Globalspec enough money to run CR4. They can have my farm, the rather luxurious farmhouse, all the equipment. The whole lot, even the $20 million I have in the bank. Mrs K will send you the Farmville login details

I don't disagree, but anybody asking a question needs to look past the first few replies. Not many people do, and that is often reflected in the GA imbalance. For evidence of that, look at the challenge questions where early answers get a GA, and late posters clearly have not read earlier posts. Can't bitch too much having done so myself.

I have a 'shelf job', that remains so because an early reply was negative and even got GA'd. It will probably never leave the shelf now, even though their was a serious underlying intent. Why bother exploring and sharing knowledge if you sense a mob hostility. Due to a few more considerate members it is still on the shelf rather than the bin.

CR4 would not be the unique place it is without humour/banter/OT. Every other science/engineering site I've seen is as dry as my granma's bones. The price of informality is occasional misunderstandings. The oft used comparison of CR4 being like a bar where people drop in for a pint after work is very true. That doesn't impede serious discussion, and the friendly nature of the place is what encourages many people to make the effort of making detailed and well constructed replies.

It may be cynical of me, but I suspect a partial reason for this reminder of forum behaviour is to assure iHS over what they have purchased. Only the powers that be know the figures for how many people find CR4 then tab over to Globalspec. Even that is not a quantifiable amount since many will visit here and at a later date go direct to Globalspec. In addition, many people have probably referred others to Globaspec purely by their knowledge of it from CR4. I found CR4 via Globalspec, but have chatted with many members for who the reverse is the case. I have recommended CR4 and Globalspec to numerous people (no, honest, you don't have to pay me ). Seriously though, I wouldn't go anywhere else first to find a solution to a problem. There is nothing technical I could not find on CR4 (or at least get a pointer in the right direction). We may be something of an 'errant child' in the iHS portfolio, but at the same time we are largely an audience who can lead people toward Globalsec. Maintaining what may seem partly a social forum is a small price to pay for a diverse worldwide community that can please the bean counters (if they ever figure how to correlate CR4 activity with Globalspec visits).

It's a free site and I'm happy to try play by the rules, though on more than a few occassions I've been lacking in that respect. Hopefully iHS will see that the nature of CR4 is pretty unique and that the overall direction is serious discussion that can drive clicks toward Globalspec. The majority of people who participate are engaged with activities relevent to Globalspec. It would be a shame if a relatively cheap sandpit was killed off when it's impossible to quantify the financial benefit.

No harm in Savvy giving us all a reminder (everybody needs a kick up the pants once in a while), but CR4 is in essence being reviewed by the people who pay for it.

That's all I have to say about that .