The CR4 Admin Blog Blog

The CR4 Admin Blog

The CR4 Admin Blog keeps you up-to-date with what's happening on CR4: The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion. Read about site updates, the site moderation team, and more.

Previous in Blog: [Video] CR4 Tutorial - Editing Profile   Next in Blog: CR4 Social Media Buttons!
Close
Close
Close
Page 1 of 2: « First 1 2 Next > Last »

CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

Posted June 19, 2012 11:55 AM by SavvyExacta

When you think of CR4, what do you think of? I perceive it as a place for engineers, scientists, and technically-minded people to connect. It's a place where you can discuss topics you enjoy with people who think like you do.

Sounds pretty good in theory, right? The Admin team has been receiving a lot of complaints about some of the attitudes of CR4 members. Some are about spam (we know there is a problem and we're working on that). Others, more frequently, object to the number of replies that are negative, sarcastic, and not helpful.

If you went into a bar (no, this blog entry is not one of those jokes) and people starting yelling across the room asking why are you there, you don't look capable of drinking a beer, you don't speak perfect Spanish, you're just a nerdy engineer - would you stay? Some might. But others, who had gone into that building to have a good time and talk with people who might become friends, would just leave and go somewhere else. That's fine if the group wants to be closed and discriminate against people it doesn't want to be members. But that place is not CR4. CR4 is open to anyone who wants to discuss relevant topics and abide by the site policies. It's a place where anyone can come for help or just to talk.

The site rules, which were last updated in March 2010, clearly show what is allowed and what is not tolerated on CR4:

CR4 is an English-speaking community. As such, all content must be posted in the English language so that it is accessible to this audience and can be reviewed properly. At the same time, it is important to note that for many users of this site, English is a second language. Therefore, there is no reason to report, highlight, or denigrate grammatical errors, typos, etc. It is also against this site's policy to denigrate a user because of his or her location, race, gender, or creed.

  • Sometimes a poster is a non-native English speaker. This can cause not only language barriers but also cultural confusion. The part of the rule that appears in bold, above, clearly explains how to handle these situations. There's no reason to belittle someone because the English isn't perfect.

Please stay on topic. Posts and comments should be of a technical nature and involve some aspect of engineering, science or technology. If you delve into other topical areas (business, entertainment, sports, etc.), please do your best to tie them back to one of CR4's main focal points. Posts focusing on politics or religion will probably be removed. There are plenty of places on the Web to talk about politics or religion. CR4 isn't one of them. Likewise, strong political and religious sentiments should be kept out of profiles, signatures and other content.

  • If the question is about wiring, the first response should not tell the inquirer to search on Google or get a degree. If that's all you can add, why bother posting? It's a waste of everyone's time. (It's understandable that in some situations, there are safety concerns, and those can be brought up in a non-accusatory way.)

  • Bad attitudes and unwillingness to help drive people away by creating a poor first impression. If you visited a new community and the first response to every post was essentially calling the poster lazy or stupid, what would you think about that place? I know I would be out of there in a heartbeat - and I wouldn't go back.

When you link to an external website, it is your responsibility to make sure that the content on the linked site is appropriate for our community and does not violate our guidelines. This includes mentioning or referencing to a website, even if you do not provide a hyperlink.

  • If you post a link make sure its content supports and contributes to the discussion. Also, don't forget to describe your link. A comment that is simply a link to a Wikipedia page or a YouTube video isn't necessarily useful on its own - people are more likely to click if they know why you think it's important.

CR4 is a professional, moderated site. If you do not feel you can abide by the rules, we invite you to visit some of the millions of other sites on the Web.

  • Nobody's forcing you to stay if you don't like our rules. Maybe if you don't agree with "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" (of course, you don't have to be nice 100% of the time, but you get the idea) you can find another site to frequent. We don't like to, but if we have to we'll limit or ban people. We can also start removing comments that sarcastically point people to Google, question intelligence, or provide a link with no explanation. It's our job to make sure that the community runs smoothly. (And even if you post anonymously, we know who you are!)

  • If something someone else has written really bothers you, you can always hit the report button. That way you are complaining to those of us working behind the scenes and we can deal with the issue if necessary. If you just comment that something is spam, we might not see that right away, and you are just adding more garbage to the pile.

The CR4 team has been working hard to increase the amount of quality content on the site. We would love to bring you more stuff, too. But the time we have to spend reminding people to be polite and follow the rules, plus following up with reported items, really eats into the time we could spend doing better things. Nobody who works on CR4 does this full time - we all have other jobs at GlobalSpec.

In closing, we ask you to think before you post. Does what you're about to say add value to the conversation? Of course, some discussions wander a bit off topic, and that's okay to a point. If the majority of what you say is negative and accusatory, maybe you should just keep reading and save your post for a thread where you can help.

Image from http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac35/paulino_05/say-please-funny-cartoon.gif

Reply

Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 31551
Good Answers: 1744
#1

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/19/2012 1:17 PM

Some people who come here demanding answers, can be quite rude and insulting, even argumentative.....A lot of posters request just a link to information, and a lot of links, most in fact, are self-explanatory in that they contain the very question in the link...

__________________
Break a sweat everyday doing something you enjoy
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 974
Good Answers: 23
#3
In reply to #1

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/19/2012 1:45 PM

I don't think this is meant to single any one person out. It's just a pleasant little reminder for everyone to think about. We've seen people who take advice very poorly, especially when it contradicts what they think to be true, but we've also seen people that are unfortunately grouped with the aforementioned people and get the short end of the stick when they try to inquire about something (even if it does sometimes seem trivial to us).

Even for the more basic questions, some people find CR4 using a google search, see that there is a wealth of knowledge here with some smart intellectuals (such as yourself!), and try to find an answer to a problem or confusion that they're having. Certainly, it won't always be difficult questions, and a (different) google search would most definitely get them where they need to go, but that just means they need a little guidance in finding that answer. Teach a man to fish, am I right?

It'll just have to work until we can get something like this in place:

Edited for language, original can be found here:
http://xkcd.com/810/

__________________
The first law of thermodynamics is you do NOT talk about thermodynamics.
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - Don't Know What Made The Old Title Attractive... Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - 60 Year Member

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Yellowstone Valley, in Big Sky Country
Posts: 6962
Good Answers: 283
#4
In reply to #3

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/19/2012 3:23 PM

Teach a man to fish? What do you suppose we could teach these people:

Now, should we attribute this to a cultural difference or a language barrier? Or, is the spokesperson for La Petite Aroma ignoring common sense?

I am hesitant to offer an individual thread, but I am weak and cannot stop myself. From this thread, the entire original post: "Have head lights but nothing else?? New charged up battery mo mo no go??" It bothers me that he probably did a GOOGLE with that exact phrase, and CR4 was the #1 hit. There are hundreds more informationally devoid OPs, we all know it. Some discussions get better after we coax out more info, some simply die because the OP doesn't return, and a few get worse.

__________________
When you come to a fork in the road, take it. (Yogiism)
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42293
Good Answers: 1663
#9
In reply to #4

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/19/2012 7:23 PM

Well Doorman,

Thanks a lot for citing a thread that has me making the most (8 out of 25) posts, none of which actually helped the OP. Not that anyone could have helped them.

Now, in response to the mods:

I'm one of the most intolerant members here, and I admit it.

That doesn't mean that I don't help people, I just find it difficult to waste my time typing their title into a search engine when they could have done it themselves.

I also am vexed by some members who obviously do not have the competence to do the jobs they claim to have. Sometimes I make my disdain public, especially when their questions demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge of the subject at hand. I thought G********s for Du****s was funny and not too demeaning.

But, it is your site, you make the rules and I like it here. I never visit any other sites. That should be obvious by looking at my post count.

I think the mods do a great job of controlling the site and don't have any problem with the present group.

I am amazed by the diverse level of intelligence presented here. Both by the utter lack of common sense shown by some and the brilliance shown by others.

I also like the banter and fun.

I think it is a valuable resource and I like it here.

Cheers.

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 31551
Good Answers: 1744
#5
In reply to #3

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/19/2012 3:29 PM
__________________
Break a sweat everyday doing something you enjoy
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22862
Good Answers: 415
#6
In reply to #5

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/19/2012 3:32 PM

that sounds like that was an ex cr4 admin

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Tamworth, UK.
Posts: 1781
Good Answers: 45
#17
In reply to #1

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 6:49 AM

I use CR4 quite a lot. Sometimes to answer questions, which I hope are useful to the poster, and sometimes to ask questions, which on occasions I sometimes get a 'workable' answer. It is all very interesting and helpful.

I recently asked a question about 'voting and consensus'. It might not seem an engineering question but it was in connection with committee work in setting engineering standards. Where opinions from engineer's would be useful.

A brief answer from SolarEagle with a link to Wiki was helpful and I spent the rest of the day reading up the subject - from which you can imagine a number of supplementary questions arose. I went back to CR4 to ask them, and to say thanks to SolarEagle, but my post and the reply from SolarEagle had completely disappeared from CR4 - what happened to it? Who decides what is off-topic or a good answer, or what gets posted (censored) ?

In general what surprises me at times is the extent some people go to when answering questions. The amount of time and effort must have taken ages to prepare.

Great credit to them.

__________________
When arguing, remember mud-slinging = lost ground.
Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Lifelong New Yorker Popular Science - Biology - Animal Science Technical Fields - Technical Writing - Technical Writer

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 2313
Good Answers: 59
#19
In reply to #17

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 7:09 AM

The moderator team removes posts and comments that it deems inappropriate. It's possible that they thought your thread was leaning toward a political topic; politics aren't an area of discussion that's encouraged on CR4. Perhaps it would have been better to let that thread play out for a little while before removing it.

Reply Off Topic (Score 6)
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22862
Good Answers: 415
#2

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/19/2012 1:35 PM

Useful when:

· a second opinion is needed

· another option or brain storming

· therapy when having a bad day. (sometimes used as a support group or an intervention)

· entertainment from the over-unity members and guests

Things have improved from the since new rules on registration from the guest agitators came in but there are drawbacks.

· boredom from a slow day and posting.

· over-unity members and guests arrogance

· oversensitive posters

· posters who do and do not receive the direction for answers or even the answer itself that they seek

· people who are long winded........like myself

for the most part, it is an exchange of ideas and brainstorming that contains both reinforcement and critical thinking. And with critical thinking comes challenges which are misconstrued as sarcasm at times.

All in all, I still see it as a good resource.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - Hobbies - Musician - Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - Popular Science - Weaponology -

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Eden
Posts: 1432
Good Answers: 39
#25
In reply to #2

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 8:39 AM

What are "over-unity" members?

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - Don't Know What Made The Old Title Attractive... Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - 60 Year Member

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Yellowstone Valley, in Big Sky Country
Posts: 6962
Good Answers: 283
#27
In reply to #25

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 8:46 AM

Overunity members give more than they take.

Sort of seems the other way around, doesn't it?

__________________
When you come to a fork in the road, take it. (Yogiism)
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22862
Good Answers: 415
#30
In reply to #25

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 9:15 AM

Now you want me to give an example. You form your own opinion.

And Doorman, there are also underunity members too.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Vancleave, Ms about 30 miles inland from Biloxi and the coast
Posts: 3197
Good Answers: 105
#7

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/19/2012 5:42 PM

How should we respond to an obvious "homework" assignment, many which are posted here. I know it bothers a lot of people and indicates the poster's not following the rules. I personally just ignore that kind of post. I also resent those who ask for information that is right in front of their nose. My take on it is; they don't want to waste their "valuable" time looking it up; better to waste MY time instead.

Finding information on the web is so simple, a caveman could do it. Fact is; we are not as internet savvy as we think. Most times all one has to do is type in any word or words into the search engine and up will pop thousands of hits. A question like: "How many volts in a dry cell battery" can be answered simply by typing in "dry cell battery" or even just "battery" in the search engine and everything you want to know is there. Asking the same question on this forum doesn't do the asker any good nor the responder who may have to look it up for the answer. Again, best to ignore such requests rather than insult or make someone feel stupid.

I also noticed some who get upset (uptight) over what they think are stupid questions. They respond with insults or admonishments and although I can symphasize with them, I try not to get caught up in the fray. Better to ignore. Does it bother me? Sure it does. I have been belittled for some of my opinions in the past, but remember; "what goes around comes around" and someone with a smart alex answer will slip up and get hit where they are most vulnerable. We are not all geniuses, or close to. If we were, there would be no reason to visit this forum.

My two cents worth.

__________________
Mr.Ron from South Ms.
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 31551
Good Answers: 1744
#8
In reply to #7

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/19/2012 7:07 PM
__________________
Break a sweat everyday doing something you enjoy
Reply
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#12
In reply to #7

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/19/2012 11:31 PM

Ronseto-

While I agree with most of what you have to say, except the "Finding information on the web is so simple..."

I have been searching the web since the old DARPA days. Even then, it was difficult, unless one was atune to the particular jargon of the topic of interest. Today it is even worse. Thousands of "hits", when 90% of them are marketing hits, are pretty useless when looking for technical information. When one is dealing with English as a second (or third) language, this becomes even more difficult...Everything you want to know may be somewhere in the multitude of hits, but how do you find it? I usually skip to page 3 of a general search, before really paying any attention to the hits.

Unless, of course, I know to start my search with GlobalSpec.

Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22862
Good Answers: 415
#24
In reply to #12

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 8:07 AM

Actually the web has more information now then it ever has and had been improving with more.

But I see two trends in web search

1.)

one is the amount of information can be so vast that it has to be trodded through and prioritzed

and 2)

is the information is becoming less reliable to a point that it has to be verified.

Its great to have CR4 to bounce what you have found.......atleast the people that do look prior. Because some of the members here seems to really like the challenge and they are good, and come with very good responses.

You see, CR4 is not a good source, it is a resource, The good source is its CR4 members.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 511
Good Answers: 46
#37
In reply to #24

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 10:33 AM

More and more I'm finding data searching on the internet is like finding needles in the haystack, only:

1) The hay is being added much more quickly than the needles.

2) Needles are being removed.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22862
Good Answers: 415
#38
In reply to #37

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 10:34 AM

plus, there are alot of weeds in that hay.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Virginia, Georgia, Idaho
Posts: 1079
Good Answers: 30
#39
In reply to #38

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 10:42 AM

one time I found a six pack of Schlit's in my uncles hay barn. It was warm. I drank it.

__________________
PFR Pressure busts pipes. Maybe you need better pipes.
Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22862
Good Answers: 415
#41
In reply to #39

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 10:45 AM

that can happen to.

You find something your not looking for.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 678
Good Answers: 8
#46
In reply to #12

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 11:58 AM

I agree with this. It used to be easier to get relatively accurate info. Now the first hits that come up are often irrelevant, often behind a paywall or just slick entertainment. I have a resonably successful youtube channel and advertizing is enabled on some of the videos. (So I get a few dollars). But it is a deal with the devil. Google actively promotes the moneymaking videos. (I know this because one day I disabled revenue sharing on a video by mistake and views halved for the next couple of weeks until I fixed it!) And lots of people pay google to promote their videos. Some of my best stuff (in my opinion) does not have advertizing enabled and it gets a tiny amount of views. I fall back on wikipedia more and more but they are becoming as messed up as youtube. Case in point "airlift pump" is a wikipedia page by the maker of the commercial geyser pump so it has a bunch of links pointing to the geyser pump website. An ordinary guy corrected it a while back but it changed again almost immediately. A few years ago, I wanted wikipedia to put in the pulser pump (around its 20th birthday). (But they told me to piss off because it is "experimental".) Now it is in but the text almost takes a potshot at me. And they have a vast inaccuracy "The working principle of the hydraulic air compressor and the pulser pump is exactly the same". (The pulser pump has several working principles because it is a blended device). On wikipedia you are not allowed to comment on something that you are close to (which seems fair to me) but that has not stopped the geyser pump guy taking over the airlift pump page. He even has his geyser pump patent application picture on the wikipedia page for the airlift pump! Skipping to page 3 is an interesting tactic, but how long before they tailor your hits so that page 3 is junk too?

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7963
Good Answers: 284
#67
In reply to #12

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 1:42 PM

CWARNER7_11: You wrote...

'....Thousands of "hits", when 90% of them are marketing hits, are pretty useless when looking for technical information....'

.

Finding information on the web is about to get much easier for you....

.

When you want your search to exclude marketing hits, use www.scholar.google.com

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7963
Good Answers: 284
#68
In reply to #67

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 1:51 PM

TO THE ADMINS:

Please resist the urge to delete the previous post.

It does contain a link that is not explicitly explained...

The brevity of the post could be misinterpreted as rudely dismissive...

The entire comment could be viewed as not being on topic and not being of a subject distinctive of engineering....

....but (as self serving as this statement may seem) this comment is a good example of the type of advice that I come to CR4 to receive as well as give.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
3
Power-User
CR4 Admins - CR4 Admin - CR4 Admin

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 373
Good Answers: 33
#70
In reply to #68

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 4:21 PM

"Please resist the urge to delete the previous post." I did not get that urge.

"It does contain a link that is not explicitly explained..." We are not asking anyone to 'explicitly explain' their links. We are merely asking for a description. For example, a youtube video with a hyperlink of nothing but a period as the text is not a description. I've seen it, and without context or any bit of a description I can't really click it, especially at work.

"The brevity of the post could be misinterpreted as rudely dismissive..." And that would be the misinterpreter's fault, not yours. Forums are discussion, not conversation, so it's impossible to be 'short' with people. You can have a lack of content, or be off topic, which we discourage. But if in an effort to answer Post #12's question all you did was post the link and a short description of the link, that'd be perfectly fine.

"The entire comment could be viewed as not being on topic and not being of a subject distinctive of engineering...." No topic in the Admin Blog is engineering related. Purely administrative. A good portion of the topic of this thread is Google searching, so I would say the link and post as a whole is certainly on topic.

"....but (as self serving as this statement may seem) this comment is a good example of the type of advice that I come to CR4 to receive as well as give." Agreed!

Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15247
Good Answers: 939
#71
In reply to #70

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 4:32 PM

Yeah, those RickRoll'd misdirection links do get embarrassing.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#69
In reply to #67

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 2:52 PM

I have used google scholar before. Works wonderfully when I am searching for things like "The Second Law of Thermodynamics". However, when I search for "Sta Rite Pump Curves", I get a hit "Archaeal nucleic acids in picoplankton from great lakes on three continents", at the bottom of page 2 in the search. I gave up on page 6- no sign of a Sta Rite pump curve...

Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Lifelong New Yorker Popular Science - Biology - Animal Science Technical Fields - Technical Writing - Technical Writer

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 2313
Good Answers: 59
#20
In reply to #7

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 7:12 AM

Absolutely, if you don't have anything to contribute or are disgusted with an individual trying to get his homework done for him, the best thing to do is ignore the thread. The user will go away.

We don't delete homework questions off the bat because sometimes it's hard to tell if it is indeed homework. The question may sound naive because it's coming from an engineer exploring a different field. Also, there are some users that don't mind helping with homework questions, and the students are future users of CR4 - do we really want to turn them away?

I love your last line about none of us being all-knowing geniuses! The different levels of expertise and varied backgrounds of the people here are what make the forum interesting.

Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Vancleave, Ms about 30 miles inland from Biloxi and the coast
Posts: 3197
Good Answers: 105
#43
In reply to #20

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 11:31 AM

I think the goal here is to discourage those who have nothing to contribute, but how to do that without "offending" them. There's that word again, "offend". Someone, somehere will be offended regardless of what is said. You can get many people to agree on the same thing, but never 100% of the people. There has to be a line drawn somewhere regardless of who is offended. Who decides where that line is drawn? Again many different thoughts. All we can do is agree to disagree. Some will get offended along the line, but that's life. Just toughten up and get a life. My other 2¢.

__________________
Mr.Ron from South Ms.
Reply
7
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - Hobbies - Musician - Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - Popular Science - Weaponology -

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Eden
Posts: 1432
Good Answers: 39
#45
In reply to #43

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 11:50 AM

I don't at all agree that we need to discourage those who have nothing to contribute. Anyone is welcome here if they just want to learn something or ask questions. There is no reason to discourage them, just because they are not contributing.

And there is no reason at all why a prerequisite of using CR4 should be the need to "toughen up". That is completely and absolutely unrelated to being involved in CR4, and I find it to just be a back door justification for not treating all people with respect here; and opens the door to the kinds of problems we used to have on here.

Non-Alpha personalities are welcome here. As are sensitive people. And non-aggressive people. Even the uneducated, and the kooky ones with wild ideas. All have the right to come here, enjoy their time, and leave feeling better for having signed on. I really think that's the bottom line.

Actually, I think it's Admin's role to be doing any "discouraging" if that's what's needed. No other one person has the authority nor ethical duty to make the choice of who is or is not desirable and deserving to be here. On the contrary. No neighborhood watch is needed. No citizens on patrol. No judges. Your judgement of someone's desirability isn't always going to mesh with my judgement... Don't you agree with that? Therefore, no one has that right. That's Admin's job.

Reply Good Answer (Score 7)
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 678
Good Answers: 8
#52
In reply to #45

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 3:47 PM

I did a post about a "lean away" greenhouse recently and the first post in reply was super ignorant.

"so much text to say nothing... hope you are amused! BEUF

!"

(I have no idea what BEUF means but there was a video playlist link too, not just text.). I did get a really good reply too (from usbport) which confirmed and quantified one of the things I suspected. Also, not a lot of people realize how much direct sunlight comes from the northeast and northwest in summer. The thread helped clarify it for me and others. sollumis.com shows your light situation on any day of the year with a couple of mouse clicks. I don't stop working on projects because random idiots do crappy things but it does sometimes stop other people giving the thing any respect or contributing something useful. And this meant that I had to find sollumis all on my own. (Would have been really nice if someone else found it). I have been trying to visually represent this seasonal change to the light for years in other projects. Without the ignorant post more people might stop to ponder and to think but with it, people just see "flame war" and move on quickly.

So, sure my first post was not great but it does question why everybody who does a lean-to does it almost identically. And it does give logical reasons why I question it.

I got surprising light effects in the greenhouse, (parts of the north wall illuminated from 6 pm to after 8 pm) and this aught to get an engineer to prick up their ears and take note. But it hasn't really happened and I suspect the first post contributes to that.

Anyway, ignorant posts far down a thread cannot be avoided but when they happen first thing, it is a total turnoff and sometimes other vacuous people join in and kill off anything good altogether..

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Tamworth, UK.
Posts: 1781
Good Answers: 45
#48
In reply to #20

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 12:52 PM

How do you recognise 'obvious' homework questions? or in fact naive questions? and does it matter.

On important issues when I was at work (I am retired now) I had to make decisions that depended a lot on the information I was given. Part of the problem was to judge the value of answers to questions, usually from salesmen, who were there to 'sell' their products. There was no internet in those days, nor did I have a network of contacts to call on, so I only had my own knowledge to go on.

In this scenario I developed a technique of asking questions, some that must have seemed 'silly' (but I knew the answers to) which enabled me to judge the value of answer to all questions. Thus make decisions with a high degree of confidence.

Now we have CR4 to post our questions.

__________________
When arguing, remember mud-slinging = lost ground.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Virginia, Georgia, Idaho
Posts: 1079
Good Answers: 30
#22
In reply to #7

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 7:23 AM

By not responding to an obvious homework assignment, you have reduced the number of posts related to an obvious homework assignment. There is no rule against posting an obvious homework assignment.

__________________
PFR Pressure busts pipes. Maybe you need better pipes.
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#34
In reply to #7

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 10:05 AM

How should we respond to an obvious "homework" assignment...
Don't!
Next!
Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User
Australia - Member - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 480
Good Answers: 35
#10

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/19/2012 8:32 PM

CR4 is a Great Resource, Period!

Some lazy people don't like being told they are being lazy and see it as negative.

Most answers can be found by searching CR4, or the net, but the lazies don't bother.

English skills are something we just have to deal with, but I take objection to the "Texters" that want an engineering or trade questions answered in TXT Code.

Great Site...I like it here.

Just wish the Home Work Texters would bugger off!

Great Job to the Admin Team

__________________
It's all about the Boom! - MythBusters
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2189
Good Answers: 84
#82
In reply to #10

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/24/2012 6:39 PM

There are times when I'm sorely tempted to use 'text code' simply because CR4's editor is hell to use from an Android mobile. I am often away from my computer and this EVO *is* my office. I don't use 'text code' when I'm texting because my phone's excellent editor makes it unnecessary. Does GSpec have any plans in the works for a mobile version of CR4?

Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Netherlands - Member - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Commodore 64 - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Japan
Posts: 2703
Good Answers: 38
#11

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/19/2012 9:11 PM

I think it is a great site, and i learn a lot just reading about questions outside of my field, i try to help with my limited intelligence , whenever i can.

I can understand why some professionals get annoyed with some of the questions asked. I don't know if you ask a question that CR4 tells the asker to first search CR4 database and the inter-webs.

but when i see some of the questions i go like;

I joined a hobby forum once which seemed full of elitists, my post where sabled down by long time members, after some non-friendly replies, i just left.

__________________
From the Movie "The Big Lebowski" Don't pee on the carpet man!
Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Lifelong New Yorker Popular Science - Biology - Animal Science Technical Fields - Technical Writing - Technical Writer

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 2313
Good Answers: 59
#21
In reply to #11

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 7:17 AM

When you start a new question thread on CR4 this block of text appears above the text box where you enter your thread title and question:

Tips for Posting on CR4:

  • Look for answers before you post. Search CR4 or use a search engine to see if you can find the answer to your question.
  • Provide as much information as possible. The more details you provide, the better the chance that someone on the site will be able to help you find an answer.
  • Give some thought to your post title. Don't use "Hello", "Question" or "Help". Also, simply saying "DC Motor" is not enough. Be specific, e.g., "How Do I Install Replacement Brushes In My DC Motor". Keep it professional - post titles should be written in title case without excessive punctuation.
  • Do not post the same thread multiple times. Duplicates will be deleted.
  • Include your country/region if needed. Some questions can only be answered "correctly" if people know where you are in the world.
  • Do your own homework. CR4 is not a homework cheat site; however, if you have questions about understanding concepts or how a portion of a problem is derived, these types of questions will be accepted.
  • Post all advertisements in Commercial Space. If you are posting engineering-related press releases, sales fliers, product announcements, or descriptions of your company and the work that it does, please select Commercial Space as the appropriate forum. Please post only one notice for your company. The CR4 admin will remove additional posts and we may delete them all if we feel you are simply spamming the site. Select that forum from the list below.
  • For more tips see our FAQ.

I'm not sure who, if anyone, reads that text. It seems like the majority of people, when registering for a new account on a website, just click the button/check the box to say they agree to the terms without reading them. It becomes a space you ignore so you can get your post up faster.

Reply
3
Power-User

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ronan, Montana
Posts: 174
Good Answers: 10
#13

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 12:51 AM

SavvyExacta you are dead on...period!

It appears to me, and I could be very wrong, that there aren't near the amount of posters on CR4 as there used to be. I believe the reasons for this are the very things you bring up.

I appreciate CR4 especially when things are kept respectful and civil.

__________________
"don't be so open minded that your brain falls out" unknown
Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - Hobbies - Musician - Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - Popular Science - Weaponology -

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Eden
Posts: 1432
Good Answers: 39
#29
In reply to #13

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 9:06 AM

GA Randyl.

And excellent post SavvyExacta. All your points are spot on.

And yes, I have seen a marked difference in the general atmosphere lately. CR4 was getting a really bad reputation from a whole lot of my peers, all across the country. I'd give recommendations to visit this place, and then days or weeks later they'd get back to me with negative remarks about the way various members would treat others on here. Most had no wish to deal with any of that, even if it wasn't against them personally, and even despite the good points of CR4. So their stays here were short. Actually, even I took a couple extended breaks from here... to regroup, and try to let some of the bad experiences fade from my memory.

I hope they come back and give us another try now. And I will continue to try to spread the word. The info I've gotten from here has saved my butt more than once, over the years! And hopefully, I've also contributed a thing or two, and at some point, have made someone's day or job or hobby better.

It's an extremely valuable resource, as far as I'm concerned.

And a big Thumbs Up to the changes!

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
10
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Canada - Member -

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: In the sticks of the Central Kootenays, BC, Canada
Posts: 266
Good Answers: 20
#14

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 1:14 AM

The admin blog is spot on. The way I tend to look at it is I'll answer a post if I feel I have some related experience or real information to offer. If I have to look the topic up its a good bet that I can't help the poster a whole lot.

The "good answer" is a nice game to play and I enjoy it when a couple of people decide my response is good enough for a GA. However, when someone gets a GA for kicking a poster in the nuts I tend to wonder why I'm on this site.

Jon.

Reply Good Answer (Score 10)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - Hobbies - Musician - Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - Popular Science - Weaponology -

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Eden
Posts: 1432
Good Answers: 39
#32
In reply to #14

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 9:22 AM

My feelings, exactly. GA.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: srilanka
Posts: 2725
Good Answers: 5
#15

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 3:22 AM

CR4 is very useful site for engineers but questions should be complete with relevant information before publishing. Once published many questions are asked from OP to clarify on most occasions. It is a waste of time.Someone should go through each question and obtain more data before publishing. Regarding websites it is advisable to publish a list of websites for each equipment like motors,transformers,generators, ups, rectifiers,speed control,battery,compressors,turbines,engines,definitions etc etc so that members would refrain from asking basic fundamentals.

__________________
pnaban
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 406
Good Answers: 3
#16
In reply to #15

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 6:22 AM

I have had jobs in the past where I was told to ask questions. What do you ask, if you don't know what the question should be? After some knowledge is gained, the questions will be there to be asked and answered.

Reply
2
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#47
In reply to #15

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 12:30 PM

Pnaban-

The GlobalSpec web site provides an excellent technical reference source, as well as links to suppliers of "motors, transformers, generators,..." Far more useful than a generalized search using one of the standard search engines.

The standard response should be "GolbalSpec it!", not "Google It!".

Disclaimer: I have no connection or direct financial interest in GlobalSpec. I recommend their search engine because I find it valuable...

Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: srilanka
Posts: 2725
Good Answers: 5
#60
In reply to #47

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 8:57 AM

All links provided by participants are not for buying components.Many explain technical details given by experts not found in text books.

__________________
pnaban
Reply
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#61
In reply to #60

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 9:20 AM

You will find a lot of technical references included in the GlobalSpec storehouse of knowledge, also providing information not generally provided in text books. Not all references found on GlobalSpec are simply for buying components. When I am looking for technical information, I generally skip the generic sites and start with GlobalSpec and Engineering ToolBox. Even when the GlobalSpec links connect me to a manufacturer, this is better than connecting to a reseller who hasn't a clue as to the finer technical aspects of the products they are pushing...

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mumbai, India
Posts: 1984
Good Answers: 25
#18

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 6:51 AM

Best way to avoid such problems will be to edit all questions and replies. Many questions are irritating and many answers also some times insulting.

__________________
"Engineers should not look for jobs but should create jobs for others" by Dr.Radhakrishnan Ex President of India during my college graduation day
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dominican Republic
Posts: 278
Good Answers: 10
#23

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 7:59 AM

I am also getting tired of useless answers like "use google" or "your not qualified to do that" Seems this just adds to post count nothing more. Looks like many of these posters have limited work experience and have never been given a task that they were not qualified to do. This does happen in the real world and sometimes bosses don't want to hear that you can't do it.

Internet searching can be a problem for some people. Key words can be a problem if you don't know the correct term. Somebody that always uses "ties" but never knew they were "tie wraps" will have a problem. So it's better to knock them down and kick them rather than help them!

Glad this topic was opened, at least we can blow off steam!

Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kentucky Lake
Posts: 392
Good Answers: 26
#26

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 8:41 AM

I come here to laugh and learn. CR4 members are creative, intelligent, and witty. I found this site looking for information and I return because because of the great sense of humor among the people here.

Thank you all for lightening and enlightening my days!

Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Fans of Old Computers - PDP 11 - New Member Technical Fields - Architecture - New Member Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 2168
Good Answers: 70
#28

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 8:52 AM

I may not post/reply on a regular basis but I read CR4 daily just to gain knowledge. At my age learning is still a fun thing! However, the most disturbing thing I learn is how many "engineers" seem to be hired into positions that must require some formal education or experience, and from their questions prove that they don't have a clue as to what their job requires! That really scares me!

I try to follow even the most over-the-top discussions on black holes etc., and always learn something. To me learning is what is all about, helping when I can is great, seeing others solve a problem and teaching is wonderful! Keep up the great service!

__________________
Tom - "Hoping my ship will come in before the dock rots!"
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - Hobbies - Musician - Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - Popular Science - Weaponology -

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Eden
Posts: 1432
Good Answers: 39
#31
In reply to #28

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 9:15 AM

I agree with what you're saying Tom. I also often just read but don't get involved until I can either help, or I need help. But I'm here often, regardless.

But it should be remembered that, as Savvy pointed out, oftentimes engineers are asking questions outside their own area of expertise.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Virginia, Georgia, Idaho
Posts: 1079
Good Answers: 30
#33
In reply to #28

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 9:50 AM

People write things that may or may not make sense to you, or to me. To infer that to mean that they don't have a clue as to what their job requires is a giant assumption that will not withstand any debate based on logic. You, and I, do not know them, their job, their employer, their aptitude, interests, etc. I wish people would engage the text, if they wish, which includes responses. If you believe that you have an alternative explanation, or can identify an erroneous statement, by all means do so. The rest of us now have two sides to consider. We use the context of our own lives and knowledge to decide what to believe. That is not disturbing to me. That's what I really like about CR4.

__________________
PFR Pressure busts pipes. Maybe you need better pipes.
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#35

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 10:11 AM

This is the sort of thing that drives us up the wall.
It is just inadequate on so many levels.
One of the most dangerouse things is when you just don't realise that you don't know! One is torn between trying to help and banging one's head on the leyboard.
like most things in life, you generally get out in proportion to what you put in.
Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22862
Good Answers: 415
#36
In reply to #35

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 10:13 AM

did you try kicking him in the nuts?

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4424
Good Answers: 107
#84
In reply to #36

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/25/2012 9:55 AM

He could not find them since he is a she!

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Participant

Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Fergus Falls MN USA
Posts: 4
#40

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 10:44 AM

I don't ask for a lot of help here, I just do a search and usually someone has asked my question before. I use this site very often. I don't post much, but it has been a very good resource for me. I build machines for a cabinet door company and hit a snag now and then. Then I come here. I also like to read up on posts that interest me. I would like to thank every one here. A lot of helpful people here on CR4. Thanks again.

P.S. It is pretty entertaining to read some of the stuff.

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 103
Good Answers: 2
#42

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 11:21 AM

Well stated and a good remeinder for all of us. And your final paragraph sums it up neatly in a small and well articilated package.

Thanks.

Lou Bindner

.

Reply
2
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Hobbies - Automotive Performance - New Member

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 845
Good Answers: 8
#44

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 11:47 AM

I understand it can be frustrating when people post questions that can so easily be answered by google. No need to bash them, just leave it. They'll figure out how to use the interwebs someday. Admins are pretty snappy at cleaning up such posts.

Rather than belittle, just ignore. It will make the community a better place and help CR4 grow. I for one would like to see the community grow positively for everyone rather than just a "click" of the site.

The more diverse the community the more interesting the conversation and content.

Cheers,

Bax

Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
2
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15247
Good Answers: 939
#49

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 2:09 PM

I agree that CR4 is a valuable resource. I've been one who advocates helping but not solving homework problems posed by students. I've put my own foot in my mouth many a time here and I've helped a few along the way.

There is one type of question though that I will quickly abuse that will remain in negative space in my opinion. Many of us, myself in particular, work in spaces that require an authority to approve the work and an adherence to an engineering standard to keep everyone safe. CR4 is not the place to learn these standards and CR4 has no authority in these spaces. Certainly there will be exceptions to this for one reason or another. But one does not get safety knowledge on how repair a 25,000 volt 400KVA substation here. Safely hot tapping a natural gas line cannot be taught by a blog.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#50
In reply to #49

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 2:46 PM

I agree with Redfred 100% when it comes to safety issues. We as professionals have an obligation to insure that our advice/recommendations are not applied in such a way that individual or public safety and welfare are not negatively impacted. However, I can understand the situation where, having contacted an appropriate "expert", one has questions regarding the recommendations of said expert, and would like confirmation through a second opinion. It can sometimes be difficult to distinguish between the DIYer and someone looking for confirmation of received technical advice, especially with the language barrier issues. The best solution in this case would be to suggest that the proposed operation is not something that should be attempted by someone not knowledgeable or experienced in the techniques or technology involved- in a polite way.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22862
Good Answers: 415
#51
In reply to #50

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 2:53 PM

I agree with redfred also.

Problem is when one puts a statement where safety has been over looked or ignored. one will object and point out the seriousness of the issue of safety, and then be taken lightly or ignored.

What happens:

  • Some may ignore it and move on and let it go
  • some keep banging their head trying to be political correct and being nice, still getting nowhere
  • some escalate it, and call a spade a spade. and be labeled as aggressive or not a very nice person.

Life is full of personallities, its too bad that can't be realized.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Tamworth, UK.
Posts: 1781
Good Answers: 45
#57
In reply to #51

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 6:59 AM

Re Phoenix911

"...some escalate it, and call a spade a spade. and be labeled as aggressive or not a very nice person..."

But does this work? Do these people get things done ? Are they successful ?

I recognise the latter! - I am in a situation at the moment where it could be me.

It would be useful to know how to deal with such a situation.

__________________
When arguing, remember mud-slinging = lost ground.
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22862
Good Answers: 415
#58
In reply to #57

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 8:14 AM

I'll list a situation that happen to me,

A young machinist was setting up to machine a UHMW round bar that was about 10 feet long (Over 3 meters) , I saw him sticking it in the tail stock of the lathe, with the machinist being young. I stop and talked to him on what he was doing in front of his suppervisor, after he told me, I told him to make sure you support that round bar sticking out.

He said he would. But he didn't.

Half hour later, he turned on the machine and the tail just wiped around, knocked over a setup table.

Of course I was upset and this is putting it mildly, ask why didn't he support it. No response.

His supervisor volenteered this information. He said he saw him set up without it supported, but didn't do anything, because as he said that I told him already, and added that is the only way for him to learn is from his mistakes.

My reply was, At the expense of whose safety among other things that I said.

I was upset about the young engineer, but I was disappointed with the supervisor who was an experienced machinist.

His supervisor could not understand why I was mad at him, he felt it was the young machinist fault.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
4
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Canada - Member -

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: In the sticks of the Central Kootenays, BC, Canada
Posts: 266
Good Answers: 20
#53
In reply to #49

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/20/2012 8:47 PM

I take exception to the comments that some information is secret because it might be unsafe for someone untrained to try it, or put another way, "censored by the safety cops" or "censored because you gotta talk to an authority having jurisdiction".

Information from CR4 (or the net in general) rarely exactly what one needs to perform a job anyway...why not just answer the question and then put in a sentence about safety?

I posted a question about how to safely prepare a large propane tank for cutting and welding here some time back. A lot of posts were from safety cops about safety and ensuring ASME standards were met and telling me to crawl in a hole and pull it in after myself. But there were other posters who took the time to offer their experiences, suggestions, and opinions. These posts all helped, in the meanwhile I was doing my homework with many other sources -not just CR4.

Its my opinion that withholding information just because the issue might be dangerous is a misguided and elitist attitude. Everyone had to learn sometime and just because they aren't in the right Medieval guild doesn't mean they don't have the right to know.

Jon.

Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15247
Good Answers: 939
#54
In reply to #53

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 1:19 AM

This is how these things happen. You understand one interpretation of a comment on safety that seems silly to you so you believe you can ignore any possible consequence from giving out information.

My use of the term authority is not legal authority or the idea that one must seek guild permission to do an engineering task. When one works on an extremely complex machine with many varied hazards there must be one authority that coordinates and documents all work on that machine or disaster will eventually happen. It rarely is the one circumventing this authority that gets hurt or killed, too. So your personal advice here or elsewhere may have been the root cause of my cited accident and you would never know.

When there is no recognized and respected authority in place one can quickly get an infrastructure like these wiring nightmares.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#55
In reply to #53

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 2:59 AM

BRAVO! Well said.
I just fitted a new gas boiler in my home*. I was checking about purging gas pipes on one plumbing forum and met the 'safety' nonsense. My work is self evidently safer if I know how to purge gas from any pipe I'm working on and also how to purge the air from it when I've finished.
I did find the information, but didn't actually need it as a compression joint allowed me to dismantle the pipe and do all my soldering on the bench. The boiler install info told me how to purge after fitting.
A competent DIYer working on his own home will often do a better job than a 'qualified' professional as there is no time constraint which encourages the professional to cut corners.
Del
*Arguably I should be 'gas safe' registered. I say 'arguably' as the legislation merely states a 'competent' person, but then confounds this by adding it's own restrictive definition of 'competent' which is surely a bastardization of the English language.
(That's one reason why I didn't blog the work here. Although I did ask related question about adding a boss onto cast iron pipe)

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - Hobbies - Musician - Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - Popular Science - Weaponology -

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Eden
Posts: 1432
Good Answers: 39
#56

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 6:54 AM

"CR4 Member Disclaimers", in regards to advice given, sounds like it should be an entirely new thread, if it's worth discussing.

Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Fans of Old Computers - PDP 11 - New Member Technical Fields - Architecture - New Member Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 2168
Good Answers: 70
#59

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 8:30 AM

These last few comments are what I was trying to get at in my comment about being scared in #28.

__________________
Tom - "Hoping my ship will come in before the dock rots!"
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22862
Good Answers: 415
#62
In reply to #59

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 9:29 AM

Competence or addressing incompetence?

This may be getting off topic, but it does should the value of one's peers because of CR4

As far as your post 28;

At Least Have Some Experience

I have been left go because of addressing incompetence.

And better off for it,......... in the long run.

Will I still do it? Yes, but I will have better contingency plan in place for the consequence.

__________________
“ When people get what they want, they are often surprised when they get what they deserve " - James Wood
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Technical Services Manager Canada - Member - Army brat Popular Science - Cosmology - What is Time and what is Energy? Technical Fields - Architecture - Draftsperson Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Clive, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5907
Good Answers: 204
#63

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 9:33 AM

If you walked into a bar and asked a dumb question (instead of getting it answered a at the tourist bureau) ... especially where?

a pub in the english countryside?

a bar in the outback of Australia?

a bar in Manhattan?

a bar in the hood?

you have many options in the bar; kicked out or asked nicely to leave... a lot of mean staring and sarcasm... or a good 'ol beating, depending on whether it is happy hour or midnight... sometimes the police might even get called. You should at least have some idea of what you are getting into before even walking in... observe.

It is wiser to approach the wild animals slowly... and see if they bite, before offering oneself as food.

:)

Chris

Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Fans of Old Computers - PDP 11 - New Member Technical Fields - Architecture - New Member Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 2168
Good Answers: 70
#64
In reply to #63

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 9:43 AM
__________________
Tom - "Hoping my ship will come in before the dock rots!"
Reply
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4273
Good Answers: 213
#65
In reply to #63

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 9:44 AM

Good advice when dealing with women, too...

Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Anonymous Poster #1
#88
In reply to #63

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/26/2012 5:38 AM

Yeah, looks like by now everybody who is following this conversation and watches the CR4 space from outside the cage would either not put the hand in or if she/he feels like doing so - gets bitten.

But we will have to decide if we want to bite or not.

Reply
5
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#66

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 1:18 PM

I think that its like bad money chasing out the good.

Too much sarcasm and "I can find it on google, why couldn't you?"

I am motivated to teach and promote "knowledge retention" of what I have learned.

I do not mind students seeing my work, but I will not assist in completing their assignments.

If the request is like a baby bird demanding to be fed, I'll ignore it. If the request shows that they have made an effort to try to make sense of it I'll probably contribute.

I try to always "Protect the Customer" when it comes to what I do, so I will wade in when someone is trying to do something dangerous.

I will flag posts when US laws about defense technology are being broken- I think some folks are too happy to show off what they know at the expense of missing that what they may be sharing could be "demed an export of US defense technology." (I helped in one investigation that came though a similar online site where the authorities were able to track the posters to middle east and the requests were for technology to be used by terrorists.)

I agree that the level of cameraderie, sharing, and quality of discussion has fallen.

So I seldom find myself in conversations anymore.

But part of that has been because I have been uber-busy on other government involvement stuff.

But if I had a "how to or what do you think?" sensemaking question, I'd post it here.

In the end, I think that if responding members only posted about what they know and what they have done, rather than trying to be "Google guides" the quality of the conversations would be better and more focused. Perhaps higher quality and somewhat lower quantity.

Milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply Good Answer (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - Musician - New Member Australia - Member - Torn and breading Engineering Fields - Nanoengineering - New Member APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Magnetic Island, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 3721
Good Answers: 74
#72

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 5:02 PM

Dear all

I found the time to read through all of the thread and no regrets here. Even if sometimes things get a bit nasty we are all not trained diplomats. The Pub analogy is fitting, in a way, but were I am the size of the last fish caught is more important than anything else.

I am not even a trained engineer but an inventor. With out the help, guidance and encouragement I have received in CR4 I would still be in the workshop trying to find out things on my own. Some advice here might have even saved my life or avoided injury.

This must be the most enjoyable site for anyone seeking more than just a link. I received friends over the years and could have only found them here. Just a shame some of the old guard has withdrawn.

Roger, if you are watching, please except my apology for being such a provocateur.

I like it here, Ky.

__________________
The Twain Has Met
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#73

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 5:16 PM

...And another thing!
There's no such thing as negative space...
Or is there?
Maybe we should ask Jorrie?
Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#74
In reply to #73

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 5:46 PM

The inward curve above the hips is negative space. the curves above are positive.

I'm Positive.

But I can see how you could miss it.

You. Are. A. Cat.

Milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#75
In reply to #74

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/21/2012 6:11 PM

LOL...
Yo the man, I the Cat
Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - Lifelong New Yorker Popular Science - Biology - Animal Science Technical Fields - Technical Writing - Technical Writer

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 2313
Good Answers: 59
#76
In reply to #73

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/22/2012 7:04 AM

I had a feeling someone would come out with that!

Reply Off Topic (Score 4)
2
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2189
Good Answers: 84
#77

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/24/2012 12:57 PM
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
3
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15247
Good Answers: 939
#80
In reply to #77

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/24/2012 2:46 PM

Yes, that was certainly one of the times that egomania ruled here. GA

I agree that we should be much more tolerant of naive, well intentioned questions here. We also shouldn't just shovel wikipedia and google search pages at the naive without any explanations. They come to us for a dialog not just a link. If the link is intended as a guide of our arcane vernacular so that a precise discussion can happen, tell everyone that. If the link is supposed to support your opinion, tell everyone your opinion too.

At the same time many of us worked damned hard to get our formal and informal education. We make or have made our living using and dispensing the knowledge we've gained. It can quickly seem insulting when a clueless individual mis-phrases a question. Trading insults never helps.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
3
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2189
Good Answers: 84
#81
In reply to #80

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/24/2012 3:44 PM

I agree that many of us worked very hard to get where we are. I'm sure some of us (myself included) have a gaggle of PhDs from the School of Hard Knocks. That being said, some of these posters are also working hard - they're just at a different point in their journey than we are, that's all.

Probably the best guide (for me at least): Don't make it personal. When it gets personal, it's time to move on.

Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
5
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2189
Good Answers: 84
#78

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/24/2012 1:46 PM

The haughtiness gets to me.


We may think a question is naive or whatever, but the person who is asking doesn't think so - that's why they're here asking! Who are we to treat them as inferiors, hmm? As if we were God's gift to the engineering world? Who the hell died and left us in charge?


When I was around nine or ten years old, I had the opportunity to talk at length with a senior laser-physics engineer from Bell Labs. The man had a PhD in electrical engineering and a PhD in mathematics and a PhD in physics. Earned them all in ten short years at MIT and Stanford.


I was a curious ten year old know-nothing who had just barely learned Ohm's Law and still believed one could make monopolar magnets by breaking dipolar magnets in two. This man could plumb the sum of my engineering knowledge in ten seconds or less, but did he? Did he tell me my questions were stupid or below him or did he denigrate me in any way for "wasting his precious time." No!


Why not?


Because at an age when he didn't know anything he asked "stupid, naive" questions of his mentor, who also considered time with him well-spent. An investment in the future, one 'know-nothing' at a time. And weren't we all know-nothings at some point in our lives? It's not the bad attitude or unwillingness to help that pisses me off, it's the haughtiness, the arrogant pride that lies beneath.


Don't get me wrong: This forum is one of the best I've seen, warts and all, but this looking down our haughty, snooty little noses at those whom we consider inferior (for whatever reason) has got to stop. For those of us who simply must act like arrogant buttheads? Hey, there's always Facebook!


We cast long shadows, folks. All of us. Longer than we may think. Much longer! If that guy from Bell Labs had answered my questions the way we sometimes answer others' here, I would never have chosen engineering as a profession nor would I hold engineers in high esteem. But I did and I do - all because of one man's patient forbearance and thoughtful consideration of my ten-year-old's uninformed, naive, uneducated, ill-conceived, poorly-framed questions.


THINK before we post! Remember Your Roots! At one time, I knew nothing at all. Nothing! As it is and, in the Grand Scheme of Things, if I know anything for certain, it's how bluddy ignorant I really am. Let us remember our roots lest we unwittingly poison someone else's - someone who might have otherwise made a real, positive difference in this world.

That kid on that 'Machine Thread' (see my post above) approached this forum with a good heart and a great attitude - and was met with neither.

Reply Good Answer (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 678
Good Answers: 8
#79
In reply to #78

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/24/2012 2:13 PM

I was 14 or 15 when relative to the others in the class , I was pretty high up there on science knowledge and I laughed loudly at a stupid science question from the smartest girl in the class (who had missed lots of time due to illness). It was actually a really smart question and the science teacher praised her for even noticing the thing and had great difficulty answering it.

It put me in perspective and I was (and felt like) a total aaah hole. Hopefully, I have learned a bit from the experience. Some people here never got hit with that humility stick and maybe I need another beating with it. It helps to hold back and think before answering.

Another thing is cliques. They are everywhere online and in life. People rush to defend their "friends" who they have sometimes never met but share some ingrained view. Even when they have made asses of themselves. This is not as bad as penn state or religous institutions but cliques are part of human nature and maybe many good answers could be clique's coming together to defend their own. (Perhaps software could deal with it?)

Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 4424
Good Answers: 107
#83

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/25/2012 9:47 AM

Been reading CR4 for a couple years now. At least I have seen the bath breaking thread. I might even have signed up back then and lost the password + e-mail + user name. *what a savvy engineer I am!*.

Anyway I am here for reading the smirky answers to the exceptional unwell composed questions as sort of entertainment. I have not posted a question and probably would only post some fun questions or to entertain you guys.

I am normally using the standard engineering utilities to get answers to my engineering questions which there is:

  • Thinking
  • Books
  • Internet research
  • this most of the time yields good results in form of manuals, papers, science reports and the sort.
  • finding and interact with the specialists in the field - mostly via business contacts

Honestly I think CR4 is great but I see it rather as a social place for engineers than i truly sources of information. As pointed out so often a good engineer would not rely on the information that is presented in a forum like this.

I enjoy reading about categories that I have nothing to do with and I pull my hat for all those that are savvy in what they are doing.

So what is the problem with CR4 or is there one? I do not think that you can expect more than you get. The funny or more so stupid questions coming in is a result of the existence of people that are not engineers. The art of asking the right question makes you almost an engineer. Where there is not art there is the need to education and hence the question are there but maybe awkward.

None-engineer asking a question to the community/engineers is what you get with all the assorted problems.

Sometimes it gets to rough from both sides. Again this is more a social problem than it has to do with engineering. I see a trend to not reply onto real bad questions. I assume this is the way forward and I would rather leave this to the admins to send a message to the poster that the question has been removed to the advantage that he can rephrase and more likely gets an answer.

Unfortunately replying to some of those OP's i got signed up to CR4 once more and here I go making a comment I never thought I would.

By the way I am no native English speaker and know exactly where the perks are in being misunderstood. But sometimes that does not help me understand none-English speakers or their requests.

I want to close with something I learned in my youth:

Half of the question is the answer!

Think about that someone or all.

Cheers IS

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7963
Good Answers: 284
#85
In reply to #83

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/25/2012 2:07 PM

GA from me.

I especially appreciate that you anticipate and make concessions for the likelihood that many others lack your level of access to at least some of 'the standard engineering utilities'.

Lack of access to the first utility you list is a severe handicap that seems to occur with increasing frequency.

Also, congratulations on your superb non-native English fluency.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2189
Good Answers: 84
#86
In reply to #83

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/25/2012 3:36 PM

It worked!!! We (well, Yamdankee) got you to finally post something, shameless lurker!!!

For my part, I prefer to consult authoritative, recognised sources for the really critical stuff which must be accurate, but sometimes just finding the stuff is a real bitch. It is here that CR4 really shines: folks may not know the answer (or they may) but they sure as heck know where to find it - or know who does know - and it's not always obvious, lemme tell you! Which leads me to a corollary to "Half of the question is the answer:"

Sometimes half the answer is calling the damn thing by its correct name!

(I'm really guilty of this. You'd be amazed what I've called stuff - or maybe you wouldn't)

I like this forum's social aspect too, and very much so. It's really nice sometimes to talk to your peers and those in related professions who don't first require a short course in engineering terminology just to understand what you're bluddy talking about. Nerds of a Feather Grok Together. It's not that others aren't just as interesting (sometimes more so - and this coming from a geek), but like most people, we have our interests. Ours just happens to come with its own peculiar language: GeekSpeak.

Cheers!

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
3
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Technical Services Manager Canada - Member - Army brat Popular Science - Cosmology - What is Time and what is Energy? Technical Fields - Architecture - Draftsperson Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Clive, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 5907
Good Answers: 204
#87
In reply to #83

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

06/25/2012 10:35 PM

good attitude, but cr4 is a goldmine of information, and further to that, it can answer questions that a textbook can't.

one might pay a consultant with the same attitude you have presented, in the hopes that they might be able to solve one's big problems... but they can't always do it... but cr4 is a herd of consultants... sure it is chaotic, but it is a deep well of know-how too.

Chris

Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
2
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Been there, done that. Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 15247
Good Answers: 939
#89

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

07/15/2012 12:24 PM

It has been a month since this polite request from the CR4 administration has been placed. This thread has wandered into many useful clarifications but I think the intended point of SavvyExacta has been lost in all of the exceptions.

The first few replies to a thread will often set the tone of the whole discussion. An early snide remark will drive the OP away and all subsequent requests for clarifying information will go unanswered by the OP. This leads to an apparent lynch mob effect as one reply after another abuses the now vacant OP.

Like it or not, those who first get to a thread of a new poster make the CR4 first impression. We only get one chance to make a first impression. Our first impression is getting very ugly.

__________________
"Don't disturb my circles." translation of Archimedes last words
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 678
Good Answers: 8
#93
In reply to #89

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

07/15/2012 2:47 PM

"The first few replies to a thread will often set the tone of the whole discussion. An early snide remark will drive the OP away and all subsequent requests for clarifying information will go unanswered by the OP. This leads to an apparent lynch mob effect as one reply after another abuses the now vacant OP."

It would be great if CR4 used some proactivity and removed early abusive posts before the value of a thread is completely lost. I got lynched on the lean forward greenhouse thread and the usual suspects jumped in and joined the mob.(Apology if you are proved wrong would be great, folks) but a lot of "men" here don't own their mistakes.

Ruined the thread. And the lean forward greenhouse does have merit. (It got featured on instructables and was put on their homepage for a few days). Another thing for CH4 to consider is a change to the good answer format. I think it is been used by a clique of old farts as a currency to validate each other. Maybe by a couple of cliques of old farts. I think CH4 is advanced enough that they can tweak the system a bit to give good answers a weighting. Maybe something like, if you dole out a thousand good answer ratings per month (to one person or 5 ) , you use up your good answer mojo? System can still work but the internal workings should be opaque to the user. Some people routinely say when they gave a GA too. Is that looking for a GA in return now or later? Anyways, I think the Gods of CR4 have left the building. Nothing changes. So much of the engineering discussion has a political taint to it. Quite a turn off.

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Canada - Member -

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: In the sticks of the Central Kootenays, BC, Canada
Posts: 266
Good Answers: 20
#94
In reply to #93

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

07/15/2012 3:30 PM

Gaiatechnician,

You have a very good point. It seems like the first post reply to a lot of comments gets a "GA" even if it doesn't seem to (me, at least) be a very good answer or even a snooty answer. It seems like there is an undercurrent of cliques or mutual admiration societies.

Some sort of system that tracked the GA would be pretty useful in weeding this out. Removing unhelpful posts or just moving them to an "off topic" area would help.

Jon.]

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Etherville
Posts: 12334
Good Answers: 115
#101
In reply to #94

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

07/16/2012 2:50 AM

The GA thing is easily sorted - Use a facebook style 'like' which will show who 'liked' <whatever> post. A GA is no more than a 'like' anyway. Similar applies to OT.

__________________
For sale - Signature space. Apply on self addressed postcard..
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7963
Good Answers: 284
#96
In reply to #93

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

07/16/2012 12:25 AM

Gaiatech,

I enjoyed your post, although I do think a thicker skin might work out better for you.

.

Like you I would also like to see posters more consistently owning up to mistakes and making amends for transgression. I don't think this can be imposed from the top down though.

.

My favorite part of your post was noticing that after you typed 'greenhouse' and began attributing things to 'old farts', you changed the name of CR4 to methane ('CH4')! Twice, even!

.

That is priceless.

.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Lifelong New Yorker Popular Science - Biology - Animal Science Technical Fields - Technical Writing - Technical Writer

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 2313
Good Answers: 59
#105
In reply to #89

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

07/16/2012 7:12 AM

"Like it or not, those who first get to a thread of a new poster make the CR4 first impression. We only get one chance to make a first impression. Our first impression is getting very ugly."

Absolutely. We've received feedback from people who have posted here once, received a nasty response, and never returned. Some tell their friends not to bother visiting CR4.

The Admin team does its best to mark early unnecessary replies OT. We also contact people privately in cases like this and ask them to not post if they can't add anything constructive.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Etherville
Posts: 12334
Good Answers: 115
#109
In reply to #105

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

07/16/2012 8:22 AM

People are (in my experience) more likely to complain than thank (if they make any comment at all). If I encounter a new company/person/whatever and don't like it, I usually walk with no comment. For anybody to add 'I'll tell my friends not to visit either' smacks of petulence. Negative feeback is statistically skewered. The double edge to the blade is that you cannot know how many people simply walk away, so your point is valid. However, anybody so impatient as not read all replies and check how the site works first is unlikely to spend more than a picosecond looking at GlobalSpec before going elsewhere because they could't locate a specific flange or whatever.

A goodly number of flames I've seen here are not down to people having different first languages. It's often down to limitations of discussion in a written form. The nuance of spoken communication is easily lost. Perhaps one of the guidlines should be, 'if you feel somebody has annoyed you, take deep breath/check it out next day before replying'. Not one of my greatest talents, but I've been genuinely grateful for the occassions admin have slapped me down for hasty reaction. As mentioned in my previous, we tread a very delicate and unique path here - generally serious discussion, but in an amiable and informal way. I hope the people in suits can see what a terrific asset they have. It's the only reason I'm eager to try follow this discussion and make some input. If CR4 goes all serious (like your average computer website) it will wither and die within weeks.

Should CR4 go down the pan, I will alter my will to give Globalspec enough money to run CR4. They can have my farm, the rather luxurious farmhouse, all the equipment. The whole lot, even the $20 million I have in the bank. Mrs K will send you the Farmville login details

__________________
For sale - Signature space. Apply on self addressed postcard..
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Etherville
Posts: 12334
Good Answers: 115
#107
In reply to #89

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

07/16/2012 7:56 AM

I don't disagree, but anybody asking a question needs to look past the first few replies. Not many people do, and that is often reflected in the GA imbalance. For evidence of that, look at the challenge questions where early answers get a GA, and late posters clearly have not read earlier posts. Can't bitch too much having done so myself.

I have a 'shelf job', that remains so because an early reply was negative and even got GA'd. It will probably never leave the shelf now, even though their was a serious underlying intent. Why bother exploring and sharing knowledge if you sense a mob hostility. Due to a few more considerate members it is still on the shelf rather than the bin.

CR4 would not be the unique place it is without humour/banter/OT. Every other science/engineering site I've seen is as dry as my granma's bones. The price of informality is occasional misunderstandings. The oft used comparison of CR4 being like a bar where people drop in for a pint after work is very true. That doesn't impede serious discussion, and the friendly nature of the place is what encourages many people to make the effort of making detailed and well constructed replies.

It may be cynical of me, but I suspect a partial reason for this reminder of forum behaviour is to assure iHS over what they have purchased. Only the powers that be know the figures for how many people find CR4 then tab over to Globalspec. Even that is not a quantifiable amount since many will visit here and at a later date go direct to Globalspec. In addition, many people have probably referred others to Globaspec purely by their knowledge of it from CR4. I found CR4 via Globalspec, but have chatted with many members for who the reverse is the case. I have recommended CR4 and Globalspec to numerous people (no, honest, you don't have to pay me ). Seriously though, I wouldn't go anywhere else first to find a solution to a problem. There is nothing technical I could not find on CR4 (or at least get a pointer in the right direction). We may be something of an 'errant child' in the iHS portfolio, but at the same time we are largely an audience who can lead people toward Globalsec. Maintaining what may seem partly a social forum is a small price to pay for a diverse worldwide community that can please the bean counters (if they ever figure how to correlate CR4 activity with Globalspec visits).

It's a free site and I'm happy to try play by the rules, though on more than a few occassions I've been lacking in that respect. Hopefully iHS will see that the nature of CR4 is pretty unique and that the overall direction is serious discussion that can drive clicks toward Globalspec. The majority of people who participate are engaged with activities relevent to Globalspec. It would be a shame if a relatively cheap sandpit was killed off when it's impossible to quantify the financial benefit.

No harm in Savvy giving us all a reminder (everybody needs a kick up the pants once in a while), but CR4 is in essence being reviewed by the people who pay for it.

That's all I have to say about that .

__________________
For sale - Signature space. Apply on self addressed postcard..
Reply
Guru
United States - Member - Lifelong New Yorker Popular Science - Biology - Animal Science Technical Fields - Technical Writing - Technical Writer

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 2313
Good Answers: 59
#108
In reply to #107

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

07/16/2012 8:08 AM

Now that we're part of a public company I can't comment on the acquisition, but the CR4 admin/moderation team began taking steps to improve CR4 before it was announced, internally or externally. The motivation came from user feedback and a desire to make this place the best it can be. A good community is great for the members, requires less effort from the moderation team, and is more likely to be considered when resources are required for improvement.

Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Etherville
Posts: 12334
Good Answers: 115
#110
In reply to #108

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

07/16/2012 8:36 AM

I think you know as well as I that official 'announcements' are not the first anybody hears. There's no need for us to labour the linguistic/semantic detail - your original post stands up fine on it's own feet. It might be worth adding that the admin team are all volunteering their time (OK GlobalSpec probably give people a little time off, and they almost certainly foot the bill/provide the resources). People realizing that admin volunteer might go a long way to helping people understand that negative comment etc is not a good thing. Bad behaviour on forum is akin to wasting time of a volunteer rescue crew.

Now that we're part of a public company I can't comment on the acquisition

That puzzles me slightly. I'd have thought it exactly the right time to clarify thing and make sure everybody knew the game rules ? No need for reply on that, it's digressing too much.

__________________
For sale - Signature space. Apply on self addressed postcard..
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - Lifelong New Yorker Popular Science - Biology - Animal Science Technical Fields - Technical Writing - Technical Writer

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 2313
Good Answers: 59
#111
In reply to #110

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

07/16/2012 8:42 AM

If you have questions about the acquisition, the best person to contact is David Pendery, Senior Director - Media Relations for IHS. He can be reached at (303) 397-2468 or david.pendery@ihs.com

Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Etherville
Posts: 12334
Good Answers: 115
#112
In reply to #111

Re: CR4: Valuable Resource or Negative Space?

07/16/2012 10:51 AM

Thank's Savyy.

Job done. "I will be out of the office on leave until July 23".

Let me know if you'd like a copy of what I just sent, Savvy. No need for this on open forum, and I'm sure the guy doesn't want inundating. You put an e-mail on open forum ..where did them guidlines go ? No prob's. Delete related posts if you wish, I honestly don't mind.

Any further on this one might be best by PM (?).

__________________
For sale - Signature space. Apply on self addressed postcard..
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Reply to Blog Entry Page 1 of 2: « First 1 2 Next > Last »
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (1); Barchetta (1); Baxter (1); chrisg288 (2); cwarner7_11 (9); Del the cat (5); DGCYS (1); Doorman (2); Epke (1); europium (5); gaiatechnician (4); horace40 (3); IdeaSmith (2); Kris (6); ky (1); Lou Bindner (1); lyn (1); Milo (2); Mizuti (1); Munster (1); netmaker (1); Out of Box Experience (6); PFR (3); phoenix911 (10); pnaban (6); Pootchie (1); Randyl (1); redfred (6); ronseto (2); RufusVS (1); Sapper (1); SavvyExacta (10); sawmilleng (3); SolarEagle (3); suresh sharma (1); Tom_Consulting (3); truth is not a compromise (9); yamdankee (1)

Previous in Blog: [Video] CR4 Tutorial - Editing Profile   Next in Blog: CR4 Social Media Buttons!

Advertisement