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USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

Posted September 14, 2016 10:04 AM by HUSH
Pathfinder Tags: defense railgun stealth warship

Last week the USS Zumwalt motored from the manufacturer’s shipyard in Bath, Maine to a Navy base in Newport, Rhode Island, as the U.S. Navy completes its outfitting before fully commissioning the vessel In October. Zumwalt is notable for her appearance, as she is the Navy’s latest stealth ship, which means she looks and operates nothing like the class of destroyers she succeeds. Of course, many of these changes make the Zumwalt the world’s most advanced warship.

That doesn’t look like a warship

Zumwalt incorporates a tumblehome design, which is when a ship’s beam (width) at its uppermost deck is thinner than the maximum beam of the vessel. On the Zumwalt, the beam is widest at the waterline and the ascending decks become more narrow—this is opposed to flared ship designs that become widest at the hull and often have square or flared superstructures. Marine engineers were unsure if the tumblehome design would work at all due to a perceived lack of transverse stability. When the ship would heel to one side, the center of buoyancy on the vessel must shift outboard with it. A flared ship design allows more mass to be supported higher on the vessel, which provides righting energy to help the vessel return to its keel. There were many concerns that the right amount of wind and wave force could turtle the Zumwalt completely.

Stability concerns were also based on the fact the U.S. Navy used calculations of testing for flared hull ships, when the Zumwalt actually uses an inverted bow. Inverted bows are common on pre-WWI warships and modern submarines and the bow slopes back toward the ship instead of over the water. This concept helps the boat slice through waves instead of over them (as evidenced by much less bow waves and spray), which increases overall hull speed and improves fuel efficiency.

Where’d it go?

Stealth is an important aspect to contemporary warships, and the inverted bow and tumblehome structure help downplay its radar signature. Zumwalt’s radar cross-section is further reduced by a lack of 90° angles between external features. The deckhouse of the Zumwalt is also made from balsawood-cored carbon-composite panels. These features result in the 610-feet-long destroyer showing up as a 50-feet-long fishing vessel on radar displays. Since the Zumwalt’s missions will take place near coastal waters, designers have had to integrate removable radar reflectors for the safety of civilian and commercial mariners.

That thing got a Hemi?

Zumwalt will feature substantial power generation capabilities, in part because Zumwalt is driven by two giant 34-MW GE induction electric motors, but also because there is hope that Zumwalt will one day be retrofitted with a rail gun or free-electron lasers. The power itself is generated by four gas turbines in an integrated electric propulsions arrangement which creates 80 MW. This electric generation powers all electronics on board, and can be allocated to systems on an as-needed basis, which is important because a railgun requires 25 MW of power. In disaster relief roles, the Zumwalt can generate electricity for over 100,000 homes.

Boom goes the dynamite

Besides the railgun, the Zumwalt also has new ideas on conventional weapons platforms. Sea Sparrow and Tomahawk missile batteries and anti-sub rockets have been moved to dedicated compartments sealed into the Zumwalt’s hull. These batteries are placed between the thick inner hull of the ship and the thin outer hull. The thinking is that in the event of a direct hit, the explosion is directed away from the ship. Traditionally, missiles were stored and launched from the center of the ship, where they are better protected from peripheral threats. However, missile batteries in the center of the ship can tear vessels right in half in the event of sequential missile detonations.

Two angular protrusions on the foredeck of the Zumwalt hide the Advanced Gun System, a new turret artillery delivery system that has been in development for just 50 years and is the largest guns outfitted on a U.S. Navy ship since WWII. It is completely automated and delivers guided and unguided munitions 68 miles away with excellent precision. With 600 rounds on board, and the ability to resupply ammunition while still shooting, the Navy dubs it the “infinite magazine.”

The enemy(?)

At the moment the only enemy to the Zumwalt is its extreme budget, totaling $22.5 billion in R&D and $4 billion for each ship in its class. Many have questioned what role the Zumwalt will fulfill, as there is little current need for a destroyer for coastal fire support of ships and troops. Originally the 34 Zumwalt-class ships were scheduled to be built before the order was downsized to 24 vessels, then 7, and finally three. (USS Michael Monsoor was launched last June; work on the USS Lyndon B. Johnson began last April.)

Instead, the U.S. has invested in 24-76 Arleigh-Burke-class destroyers, which are move defensive in nature and much, much cheaper, prompting speculation that the Zumwalt is obsolescent before it even enters service.

So the world’s most advanced warship is left without real purpose or praise, a shame considering how revolutionary it is.

UPDATE, July 2017: Here is an impressive 3D tour of the warship on The Bookmark.

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#1

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/14/2016 9:46 PM

So, we've got a $30 billion warship looking for a fight it will never have.

Kinda like a $20 billion dollar border fence full of holes from the commissioning.

It all sounds rather "Trumpian" to me.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 8:04 AM

way to pour your abundant ignorance on Trump,

The Zumwalt class was part of the Navy's DDG-51 (Arleigh Burke Class) and the DDG-1000 Zumwalt Class program. All starting in the 80's. You remember the 80's, it came right after the 70's when the military was in a shambles.

Read this, not so much for you, Its too late for you, but for others.

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#10
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 11:03 AM

Trump doesn't need my help in the ignorance department and the ship is still a waste of money, considering other country's military capabilities.

The USA spends far, far too much on "defense" than is prudent, necessary or even logical.

This is WASTED money with no return.

The fallacy that we are a weak military force is just that.

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 11:12 AM

Frankly I agree, money does not a military make. Spending has to be control, I do not believe we are getting any ROI in military spending.

High Technology implementation implemented with military spending is just a ruse for people (insiders and politicians) to fill their own pockets.

But what ever blows your skirt up, bitch away.

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#31
In reply to #10

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 11:43 PM

You know jack shit about economics either. If you did you would realize $4 billion spent in your country goes round in a multiplier effect and ends up producing around $36 billion circulating in the community.

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 12:17 AM

I'm still trying to understand if you know anything except how to insult people.

So far, I'm coming up with nothing else.

To coin a phrase from the movie Arthur, "Try not to speak".

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#34
In reply to #32

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 1:19 AM

I'm still trying to understand if you know anything except how to insult people.

Lyn his insult is uncalled for, yet your statement also shows your Psychological projection disorder... again. So maybe each canceled out.

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#39
In reply to #34

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 10:10 AM

You know where you can put your asinine statement don't you?

Clue: your head is already up there. You will need a proctologist to brush your teeth.

Give up, go away.

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#44
In reply to #39

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 11:21 AM

You can be pretty entertaining. Here, tell me if this reminds you of someone.

You brought and continue to bring this onto yourself.

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#33
In reply to #31

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 1:14 AM

Should list your source.

back in the 90's, When I was working in a shipyard, for each employee a manufacturer has, it would employ 7 others directly and indirectly in other businesses, (suppliers to the business, grocery stores, hardware store, car dealership, repair shops, home improvement stores, etc..)

Heres a tidbit about manufacturers effect on the economy. Number 2 has some numbers to the economy impact, (it depends how you look at it.).

but one has to be aware, NAZI Germany military complex and the people who controlled it, made pseudo effect on the economy. It gets complicated beyond some to comprehend in it in detail including myself, no matter how much you cite the source.

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#37
In reply to #33

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 8:30 AM

Taking it a little further... How much does the US spend for a rifle compared to other countries? Or a hammer? I would be interested to know how our spending relates once average wages, price for a bowl of soup, and other things average out.

We can spend $XX for a hammer here, yet it's only $X in other countries. I don't doubt that we spend substantially more for tech in the US and it's better tech, however our prices are also greatly inflated for the mundane things such as food and standard equipment.

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#42
In reply to #37

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 11:14 AM

If you really want to know that, tread lightly and keep your head on a pivot.

The shipyard were I worked 25+ years ago.

We had the contract for 11 of the 14 Avenger Class Mine Sweepers.

Its pretty involved on carrying things out to mil-spec. And there is a very good reason for it.

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#40
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 10:28 AM

One of the questions was is the expenditure to benefit ratio of a vessel (or any high tech weapons system) really worth it? So far we have economic aspects being bantered about.

On a gross scale, not debating the actual value of the product, just it's R&D and manufacture, does it really improve the economy? All I can do if offer an opinion based on anecdotal evidence. Ask Detroit if manufacturing is a plus or minus for an economy, local and extended. It's an opinion, and as the old saying goes, opinions are like…… and everyone is entitled to theirs.

Another thread was is a high tech weapons system actually necessary? Does it do anything of benefit? Does it make us safer? Again, I can only offer anecdotal evidence from history. The WW2 example is interesting because our "tech" was far inferior on a weapon by weapon basis, but our tech in resourcing, manufacturing, and delivery is what really did the job. It was more a victory of the technology of scale than technology on the battlefield.

Since then we have endeavored to create and maintain a high level of tech advantage over our rivals. As Desert Storm showed, Soviet tech was not all it had been advertised to be. Their Mig25 looked like our F15, but that was as far as the similarity went. So has that edge/advantage been effective? Has the B1/B2 been a better investment than the B52? Has the Los Angeles class attack sub really kept the Soviet missile boats at bay? Did we need the Virginia class? The same could be asked of the Ohio missile boats and the proposed Columbia class set to succeed them? Is the new Gerald Ford class of super carrier really that big of a leap from the Nimitz class or are we simply replacing a 50 year old boat with a new boat but still the same idea? Will the Zumwalt provide an advantage that we have yet to realize? Will "swarm boats" be effective should an open water naval combat situation arise? These are questions that I really do not want an answer to.

As I said before, the problem with "deterrent" defense strategy is you only know if it worked or not when it fails.

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#43
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 11:19 AM

A lot of Military contract consists of R&D.

There are advantages and disadvantages... and it depends on how you address it.

here a very general example.

Con: The actually development of new technology did not pan out as originally intended.

Pro: The development of the new technology does have applications to other industry.

As far as improving the economy... I can't answer that, long term, short term or none at all.

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#46
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 11:40 AM

I agree on your main point that the cost/benefit for new technology weapons, particularly for deterrence, is a question I never want answered. However, I disagree with the common myth that prior to WWII the US weapon technology was inferior to other countries. We made just as many initial good guesses of what was useful new technology as any of the other countries. George Patton(?) attributed our success in Germany to the M1 Garand semiautomatic rifle, not a tank or airplane. We also had good ideas that initially failed on execution but when the corrections were made the approach was proven. The magnetic influence trigger of the Mark 14 torpedo was but one of the problems of this weapon. Field tweeking of this weapon ultimately made it adequate but had the approach worked as planned this weapon would've devastated the enemy.

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#47
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 11:53 AM

Your also touching off the isolationist views at the time prior to WWII.

Even coming off the depression, the investment was put elsewhere such as car production. That was the reason retooling and production was relatively quick, as well as utilizing idle resources.

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#69
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/18/2016 1:25 AM

There's a saying that Quantity has a quality of its own.

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#70
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/18/2016 1:52 AM

I would have to say that one of the best investments by the military would be the B-52, first flown in 1952.

Originally designed to deliver nuclear weapons, the BUFF has been adapted to deliver many many types of conventional ordinance. and it's latest iteration the B-52H is still on active duty today - almost 65 years old.

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#76
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/18/2016 7:28 AM

And good for another 25 years... At least.

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#35
In reply to #10

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 1:32 AM

Instead of picking and choosing links to suit your platform, your really should use military spending as a percentage of GNP instead.

heres a more complete link

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#36
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 7:59 AM

"Instead of picking and choosing links to suit your platform..." I agree wholeheartedly.

The point of your introductory phrase is not "I'm right and you're wrong because I can find a different link" but that both perspectives are valid.

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#41
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 11:14 AM

thank you,... at times the cry for citations and the ones that are shown is really ridicules. A lot like MAD.

They both do the job. Some people can't see that.

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#49
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 12:47 PM

I concur with your statement that the "US military is a weak force" is a false.

I would ask you to consider that some of the countries, such as the UK, France, and Japan, exist at least partially under the US defense umbrella, so that a portion of the US defense spending is spending they do not have to make. That is, our military spending is a Foreign Aid program which some politicians favor while simultaneously crying out that the US spends too much on Foreign Aid.

This would keep their spending numbers low while keeping ours high. To what magnitude, I couldn't guess.

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#51
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 1:00 PM

My original point was simply what I stated.

"We've got a $30 billion warship looking for a fight it will never have."

So, do we put it in the "deterrent" category, the "R&D" category, "Foreign Aid" category or the "Admiral's toy" category.

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#52
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 1:22 PM

No reason it can't be in any or all of those categories.

And "looking for a fight it will never have" is one of the difficulties of military planning. There is the constant and very real fact that we always prepare to "fight the last war," not the war kind of war we will see in the next battlefield. Predicting the next type of war is like predicting the stock market. There are lots of experts advocating for different solutions, and someone will be right and many will be wrong. Like the stock market, many times the someone who was right was just lucky with his guess, not smarter than the other smart people.

For what it's worth, it's no secret there is opposition within the Navy to this class of boat as well as the Littoral Combat ships. That these craft also require smaller heavily cross-trained crews is also a concern.

But, the military will do what it always does. It will take whatever is given to them and make it work if it can be made to work. The politicians will take credit for the success stories and will blame the Pentagon and DoD bureaucrats for the failures.

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#53
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 2:27 PM

I've been out of the business of building things for the military/NSA/CIA since 1988.

I'm sure things have changed considerably since then.

Not the least of which is the price.

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#54
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 3:42 PM

No, the price hasn't changed. It's still "more than it has to be," just like always.

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#55
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 4:05 PM

Sometimes that price might be justified.

Sometimes not.

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#56
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 4:15 PM

If My friend is correct it is in the R&D category, Carrier defense division of Admirals toys. Apparently it was originally proposed as a surface combat, fast response missile defense for carrier groups.

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#57
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 4:19 PM

It will make an impressive saber to rattle, nothing more.

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#58
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 4:38 PM

And between you and me, lets hope that's all it ever gets to do.

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#59
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 4:44 PM

Works so far... Or lucky as of late. The problem is, who ever the leader is, they have to be willing to use it at their disposal, or at the very least, make your adversary believe you're willing to use it.

I'm sure it's written some where in the 'The Art of War'.

And not just a bunch of rhetoric of drawing a bunch of worthless red lines. Which is depending on luck not in The Art of War.

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#16
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 1:30 PM

If we can build it, it is just a hack or two away from another country building it. Even without a hack, another will build it. We are not vastly superior as many may think.

Isn't it good to be first and not have to scramble to get equivalent war machines, as we did going into WWII? Our front line airplanes at the start of WWII, were Germany's trainers.

(let's keep the politics out of this - we know you want another 4 years like the last 8 - totally destructive of any sense of unity in this country)

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#17
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 1:49 PM

We were fortunate in many ways in WWII. The biggest is the isolation. The rest was idled production waiting for the switch to be turned on. And that switch was Pearl Harbor.

The latest on switch was 9/11. But it was a whole new ball game with a whole new set of rules that no one knew, and few (insiders) took advantage of it.

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#18
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 1:56 PM

If the leader of Germany had not been quite so egocentric and narrow minded on the methods of warfare, the outcome would have been much different. We were ill prepared for that war, and darn lucky Hitler didn't take long range bombers and the USA seriously. With the right bombers and planning, he'd have had our launch pad (England) under his control. Short step from there to Greenland, and then the USA.

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#19
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 2:02 PM

Hitler was very disappointed when Japan brought the U.S. into the war.

And we were actually fortunate, any later, we may not have caught up.

Here's a little piece of trivia.

What is the only country did Germany make a formal declaration of war with?

Hint; the rest of the country's Germany (Hitler) only made diplomatic agreements of peace with and then broke.

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#20
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 2:16 PM

I would assume Great Britain since Chamberlain is famous for cooking up a peace deal with Hitler. I've said the same sort of thing has happened with Iran. Trusting the untrustables never works.

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#21
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 2:20 PM

It was the U.S.,

I think Germany may have also had a timed Declaration of war with the Soviets... similar to what Japan wanted to do with the US but was late.

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#22
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 2:27 PM

Well, you can see I don't cheat on my tests with Google.

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#23
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 2:30 PM

I did, and I gave the test... . I had to look to verify it after I posted, That's were I saw something about a timed declaration of war.

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#24
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 2:38 PM

Some will say the United States is the only declaration of War that Nazi Germany made before any attack. However, many US merchant marine vessels were attacked long before a formal declaration of war occurred. So how do you want to parse this?

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#25
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 2:55 PM

Even though Hitler wanted to avoid declaring war against the US as long as possible. Hitler felt that it wasn't going to be much too longer before the U.S. declared war against Germany for that same reason you mentioned.

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#26
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 5:05 PM

And when did WWII end? According to the British panel show QI:

https://youtu.be/Gt2a0Jt6QTA

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#28
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 6:10 PM

I didn't look at the video but Mother Russian and Japan has yet to sign a peace treaty.

soooo, I guess it's still going on.

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#29
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 6:53 PM

Short answer: Not until after the reunification of East & West Germany. Until then, there was no Germany with whom to sign treaties and accords.

If you google "When did WW II end" you will get a Wikipedia article that also says as much.

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#30
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 7:10 PM

May 7, 1945 Germany did do a unconditional surrender

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#48
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 12:38 PM

True, but it ain't official until some bureaucrat says it's official, with the paperwork and stamps and signatures all in place and filed properly. Perhaps it was just coincidence that German Reunification and the bureaucracy finishing the paperwork happened at just about the same time.

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#50
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 12:48 PM

I was reading a lot lately as well as watching documentary's on the people of WWII.

Albert Speer and Karl Donitz its quite interest, as well as Erwin Rommel, The last two, actually were rather professional.

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#78
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/18/2016 9:31 AM

The German military in WWII, in their context of political totalitarianism and the mad savagery of absolute control (I once read that more of the German military were executed by their own than all of the other militaries combined in WWII.), got more bang for the buck (absent the A-bomb) than any of the other militaries in WWII.

Speaking of the A-bomb, for being spread as thin as they were following the US entry in WWII, the Germans made significant technical/intellectual progress in their nuclear research with a pittance of the investment in manpower and lucre compared to the US A-bomb investment.

I had a WWII rocket science friend (major player in the Redstone program) who was instrumental in ''motivating'' the extraction from Peenemunde of everything we could get - the rockets went to the Soviets and the rocket scientists to us. The Germans were very close to ICBM's, lacking for the most part some warhead sophistication and guidance refinements.

My father was in the first wave of the Japan invasion force that had formed in the late summer of 1945. It was set to go in late July or the first week in August until it was hit by a typhoon, which required a reset of at least a couple of weeks on the schedule, allowing enough time for the Enola Gay to do its thing. In the years afterward until he died ten years ago, whenever the subject was brought up by my father, who was, as he said, saved by FDR during the Great Depression, tears would come to his eyes:

''FDR saved my life, as did Truman with the A-bomb, but by bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki he murdered over 100,000 Japanese civilians. War is Hell, but as an American fighting man, this is not the kind of Hell my country stands for. Truman had hundreds of better targets he could have chosen.''

I share his tears.

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#79
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/18/2016 9:42 AM

It's my opinion, when you're playing catch up to win, you're going to pay.

Here somethings, I thought because of the short supply of copper they used silver for the wiring in the Manhattan project.

but there was more to that.

It's interesting, we had neighbors (they were business partners) both integral to WWII. One worked for Allis Chalmers in Milwaukee. The other was part of the Manhattan project, rumored to have retired after a handsome sum was paid to keep quiet.

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#80
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/18/2016 10:13 AM

There's always an unexpected price to pay. When isolationism ruled USA politics the USA had to play catch-up to survive. Now the USA is trying to be on the leading edge of everything including international politics. This leads to expensive new technology not being useful and international hatred or disgust for meddling.

Allow me to expand on one of Abraham Lincoln's quotes:

You cannot fool all of the people all of the time. You cannot make all of the people happy at the same time or from the same act.

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#81
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/18/2016 1:07 PM

I have to agree, in my opinion, this started when the US had to rebuild the military in the 80's because it was a shambles from the 70's. It was needed then but they never stopped (slowed down). And should have, especially when the USSR disbanded.

But we were on a whole different track of military build up never seen before. And it's my opinion (concern), it could collapse due to maintaining this technology.

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#84
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/19/2016 12:30 AM

Let's simplify things: They started it, we finished it!

The fact that it took two nuclear bombs before they would surrender kind of indicates how fanatical they were about fighting on!

Believe it or not, that second atomic bomb might have saved the Japanese people - they were ready to fight to the last man, woman and child in the event of an invasion.

BTW - so many casualties were expected, that the War Department ordered so many Purple Heart medals,. that they have not had to order any in the almost 70 years since.

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#86
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/19/2016 11:28 AM

GA for your father, God bless him.

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#72
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/18/2016 2:16 AM

"What is the only country did Germany make a formal declaration of war with?"

The United States, since Japan was a signatory to the Tripartite treaty.

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#71
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/18/2016 2:10 AM

BLEEP rules.

9/11 was as much of an act of war as was Pearl Harbor!

The Commander-in-Chief should have acted ;ike FDR (whom I'm not particularly fond of).

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#75
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/18/2016 6:49 AM

Yes, and after 9/11 right up to today we have armchair Neville Chamberlin diplomats declaring it was only done by a few terrorists that flew the planes. Small minds, but it makes those armchair diplomat wannabe's elitist feel superior. That is when they're not crying out to people who disagree with them as racists or deplorables. Again, small minds, very small minds.

The biggest issue, is the terrorist used human shields more than any other war. And this war is fought differently, wasn't quite understood, which is understandable and after it was figured out, only then did we make headway. Until change of management.

It became very difficult especially when a Commander in Cheif announces the dates when he's going to pull out.

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#77
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/18/2016 7:31 AM

Btw, what's BLEEP?

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#82
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/18/2016 9:51 PM

Whatever expletive you like.

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#63
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 6:44 PM

Regardless of the cost. Our ships are old and OUT OF DATE. So many of our ships would cost more to update in reality because of (1) size (2) configuration(3)ship POWER to handle all of the new weapons & systems that is needed. Like it shows 619 ft long yet shows up as a 50' fishing vessel. You only hear of the tip of technology that is shared in it description - NOT ALL OF THE SYSTEMS OF WEAPONRY OR DESIGN. I just hope that we are not stupid enough to share with the rest of the world ALL of the other technology. I worked in intelligence on several duty stations including overseas. I worked for the most senior Rear Admiral in the Navy plus was COMSIXTHFLT - ComDesRon 12 ComCruDesGru and that was in the 70s & 80s. I can only begun to imagine the technology that is out there. My son just retired 2 yrs ago from the Army and he told me that I was so out of touch with technology that it would blow my mind. He worked in intelligence also as well as being a sniper. Carbon based material is lighter also and more effective. Fuel saving also has got to be factored in. If you have ever spent time on board ships (AS I HAVE) - look at the outer skin of the ship and look how warped- bubbled - bowed a lot of our ships are. It's called vibrasion from firing many many many weapons from them. That weakens the structure. Salt water does it not cause rust which flakes off.

Secondly do we not have UNIONS that drive the price up. Aren't you glad that NAFTA treaties are not forced upon us in our building.

Thirdly - One of the ships I was on was 419' long. Had a crew of 326. Looking at the new destroyer - it has 45 crew.

Would this be called A LEAN MEAN FIGHTING MACHINE.

That is what ships-boats-planes are made for.

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#64
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 6:55 PM

Manned by highly trained and specialized crew. I see then as the biggest drawback. And that is filling those positions.

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#38
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/16/2016 9:33 AM

What does Trump have to do with this?? He is not a politician and holds no government office.

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#68
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/18/2016 12:54 AM

You forgot to include the F-35 JSF.

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#92
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/21/2016 6:26 PM

Lyn - Just remember something. We are NOT SPILLING THE BEANS on what all this ship has for technology. Nobody will no. But WE NEED THE SHIPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#93
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/21/2016 6:48 PM

Lyn knows everything, just ask him.

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#94
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/21/2016 6:50 PM

No, we do not need ships, what we need is ships that perform.

Very disappointed in the LCS program.

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#95
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/22/2016 10:21 AM

I like the little LCS concept. At least my concept of what these vessels are supposed to do perform. For obvious reasons I have no knowledge on how well they perform my fantasy or their actual performance goals. Once again I'm talking out of my...

With my credentials on the subject now clearly established let me explain why I like the LCS and don't like the USS Zumwalt. The LCS with their low radar profile and shallow draft can more easily get close to shore unnoticed than even many Coast Guard vessels. This, in combination with their helicopter support platform, makes them an ideal vessel for special force support where stealth and surprise is key to a successful operation. Usually a successful special force operation also evades all the headlines thus making the LCS an expensive enigma in the eyes of the public.

The USS Zumwalt is a big stealthy ship with a long range cannon of marginal impact. The tactical value of this combination seems questionable at best. The stategic value is a contradiction with it being stealthy.

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#96
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/22/2016 10:34 AM

The list of problems with the LCS, both of them. The one you like is built at Marinette Marine, I understand their all recalled do to transmission problems Which is major. The may even have to cut into the superstructure to replace the transmissions.

Among other gremlins, which it got to a point that the Navy issued Stand-Down orders to recall them.

The other Littoral Class, also had its set of problems, which surprised me. The Aluminum Hull is dissolving in the salt water. This surprises my, because its as simple as have the Anodes installations.

The other problem I have in the LCS, its a 'jack of all trades' type of ship. And that's where I have what may be a personal problem with. Because then its a 'Master of none"

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#97
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/22/2016 10:47 AM

One quick point about Aluminum in seawater: Chloride really does aggravate corrosion of aluminum, to the point of being an exothermic hazard when the aluminum is in contact with a salt of a noble metal as copper. Things get hot in a hurry in such a case as saturated copper sulfate in contact with aluminum where sodium chloride is just dumped in on top of the aluminum.

Aluminum is useful in marine environments as a sacrificial anode for steel hulls, but is more often found on fiberglass hulls to prevent organic polymer corrosion.

What anode were you thinking of using to protect aluminum, perhaps magnesium, maybe that might work, but zinc anodes will not work for that, or zinc alloy ones.

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#98
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/22/2016 10:57 AM

The point making... metallurgy is a part of Naval Architecture. And for this to happen with an experience ship builder is surprising.

I realize that the shipbuilder may not be the designer. But the Naval Architect(s) should have known this.

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#102
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/22/2016 11:45 AM

How many carbon fiber ships have ever been built?

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#104
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/22/2016 11:52 AM

Other then racers, can't tell you.

But on the larger scale, well with the technology, the first large ships will probably be Minesweepers.

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#105
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/22/2016 12:06 PM

makes sense.

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#99
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/22/2016 11:20 AM

"The USS Zumwalt is a big stealthy ship with a long range cannon of marginal impact. The tactical value of this combination seems questionable at best. The stategic value is a contradiction with it being stealthy."

perhaps I'm adding up the pieces wrong, but the way I see it: Stealthy + Long Range Gun = Sniper. And snipers have two strategic values:

  • Taking out specific high-value targets despite local security around said target.
  • Psychological warfare: If there are reports of Snipers in the area, it puts everyone on edge, since you only know the sniper's location after he attacks; except if you are the high-value target or a target of opportunity, then you only know if he misses.

Even a single long-range shot that strikes an enemy vessel near the waterline, or smashes the radio building of a near-coastal base, could be devastating to morale and mission timelines, especially if the sniper can be 'somewhere else' when the target vessel/base can spare the manpower to search for it. A nervous unit is more likely to make mistakes that can be capitalized on.

Strategy and tactics can overlap in their lessons. For example, it is more devastating to the enemy unit to would their personnel than to kill them; You kill a soldier, you take one man out of the fight; you wound a soldier without killing him, and you take TWO men out of the fight, the one needing care, and the one providing First Aid until the medic arrives. The moaning of the wounded can also start to demoralize the troops.

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#100
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/22/2016 11:29 AM

the other point is. A missile is also surprising. It may not be a speedster as the shell. But its cost effective, and has a longer range.

Psychological warfare: A B52 also accomplishes that.

Even a single long-range shot that strikes an enemy vessel near the waterline, or smashes the radio building of a near-coastal base, could be devastating to morale and mission timelines, especially if the sniper can be 'somewhere else' when the target vessel/base can spare the manpower to search for it. A nervous unit is more likely to make mistakes that can be capitalized on.

A strike on a large target such as the Zumwalt at or below water line can also have devastating effects to its crew as well as the Navy.

It seems we have here is a Mexican Stand-off.

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#101
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/22/2016 11:44 AM

"A strike on a large target such as the Zumwalt at or below water line can also have devastating effects to its crew as well as the Navy."

As always, the advantage goes to who shoots and hits first, that's where Stealthy provides the edge. Your latest point reminds me of a line from Watership Down:

"All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and when they catch you, they will kill you... but first they must catch you."

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#103
In reply to #99

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/22/2016 11:50 AM

That theory only works on civilized world armies. Among some armies, being wounded, you either get no attention, or the final attention.

I would say taking out a coastal high value target such as central command communication, ground to air targeting, radar, and key infrastructure would be the main mission. Rail gun impact on such things as bridges, I have no idea how effective, but it would be hilarious to watch an enemy attempt to drive a train or a tank over a bridge that they didn't know was critically damaged, and watch them tumble into the drink. Strategic cruelty to enemy's ability to respond to an attack is just a wonderful ally on the battlefield.

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#106
In reply to #103

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/22/2016 1:05 PM

"That theory only works on civilized world armies. Among some armies, being wounded, you either get no attention, or the final attention."

Ah, I had forgotten that we are not facing as many 'civilized' foes as we used to. It's hard to work out what will be effective against a force that has no regard for the lives of those fighting next to them(1).

"Strategic cruelty to enemy's ability to respond to an attack is just a wonderful ally on the battlefield."

You made my inner Mad Scientist cackle with glee at that line, I'm going to have to borrow it the next time I'm setting up an ambush in a wargame.

Notes:

  1. Ask any US veteran who has seen combat and he'll tell you, almost word for word, "Out on the front lines, you're not fighting for your country, or even for your family back home. You're fighting for your battle-buddy, and he for you."
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#111
In reply to #103

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/22/2016 10:38 PM

"...impact on such things as bridges, I have no idea how effective..."

Most likely very effective.

I was in the Bronx on the morning of 9/11, and as I listened to the events in lower Manhattan, my thought was that they would also take out bridges - I lived in Queens at the time, and was worried about how I would get home.

Severing the George Washington, Triboro and any one of the Brooklyn-Manhattan spans would have rendered Manhattan almost isolated.

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#115
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/23/2016 9:11 AM

He wasn't talking about the effect of taking bridges out would be on troop movement, he was talking about how effective that long range gun would be as a bridge-smasher.

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#116
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/23/2016 9:45 AM

With sufficient kinetic energy, even a relatively small projectile could produce one hell of a disturbance in the sub-structure of a bridge, maybe even shatter a span due to the shock wave. Not to mention the very impressive crater left behind.

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#117
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/23/2016 9:55 AM

Oh yeah, and even a near miss could upset the ground around a foundation foot, leading to a disastrous (but entertaining to watch from a distance) collapse when that support fails to hold up under traffic. What was that phrase you used earlier? Oh yes, "Strategic Cruelty."

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#118
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/23/2016 9:55 AM

Your just described the 'God Rod'. or Rods of God

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#120
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/23/2016 10:12 AM

That old tech, it's impressive, in its own way; but before that, Heinlein was dropping rocks on Earth FROM THE MOON, BABY!

Mike: "Should we stop dropping rocks on Cheyenne Mountain?"

Mannie: "Why do you ask?"

Mike: "It's no longer there."

Mannie: "NORAD is gone?"

Mike: "No, the entire mountain is gone."

(Written at a time when a 'direct nuclear strike' on the mountain would not destroy the base. Yields went up over the years, so now NORAD is only rated as 'highly resistant to a near miss,' but when the story was first published, NORAD was considered indestructible.)

(Go read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress if you don't know what I'm talking about.)

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#121
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/23/2016 10:13 AM

James was describing old tech...

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#125
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/23/2016 11:58 AM

Hey man, monkeys have been chunking rocks on the heads of monkeys further down the hill than them for eons. That is really old tech...gravity works.

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#126
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/23/2016 12:55 PM

Yes, keeping it simple such as the old reliable rock and a stick is tough to beat.

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#124
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/23/2016 11:56 AM

What movie did that weapon first appear in? Seems like it had to do with MI6 maybe agent 007. Bond, James Bond. Martini stirred not shaken?

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#122
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/23/2016 10:26 AM

I love self fulfilling statements. They seem to be infallible.

Bringing down a structure designed to stand while supporting a wide variety of loads (bridge) can easily become more difficult than initially thought. A small projectile with a large amount of kinetic energy can punch cleanly through a structural member. This might weaken the structure to the point of collapse or just make an unused rivet hole.

Sometimes a bridge can continue to stand after a demolition team climbs the structures to put precision charges in place instead of trying from 60 miles away.

5 hours later this bridge did topple but only with some cables pulling on the weakened bridge. A repair team may have been necessary to move troops across this bridge after precise charges were set off.

You never know...

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#127
In reply to #122

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/23/2016 12:55 PM

Still standing after the demolition charges?

I have three comments about that:

  1. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
  2. So the bridge failed to fail. (I love using that line.)
  3. The demolition men forgot the one and only formula for demolitions: 2P=E, Twice Plenty equals Enough.
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#109
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/22/2016 10:08 PM

While I agree completely with your sniper application, I believe that the ultimate in stealth for a naval ship is a nuclear powered ballistic missile submarine.

The technology is proven, and the missiles do not have to be nuclear armed.

Basically what the U,S, is doing is one of the weaknesses of Germany in WWII - playing around developing assorted weapons in small and expensive quantities, rather than concentrating on one pr two weapons and producing many copies of the same, improving them incrementally as new discoveries or fabrication techniques were made or evolved.

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#110
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/22/2016 10:18 PM

Your analogy is spot on. However, you should recognize (for better or worse) that the US has become a prototype and development engineering powerhouse. We are no longer the mass production powerhouse we were in WWII. Building multiple ways to solve the same problem is what we now do. If we like what we built then it gets mass produced elsewhere.

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#112
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/22/2016 10:47 PM

"If we like what we built then it gets mass produced elsewhere."

Hopefully not weapons of war.

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#113
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/23/2016 7:39 AM

Even weapons of war.

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#114
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

11/23/2016 9:09 AM

"Basically what the U,S, is doing is one of the weaknesses of Germany in WWII - playing around developing assorted weapons in small and expensive quantities, rather than concentrating on one pr two weapons and producing many copies of the same, improving them incrementally as new discoveries or fabrication techniques were made or evolved."

If I remember my history books, Germany did that near the end of WWII out of desperation, trying to find a 'silver bullet' that would win them a losing war.

What we have here is the American Military-Industrial Complex dumping millions, if not billions, with a "B"(1), of dollars into R&D due to the low demand for military hardware compared to times when a 'hot war' is going on and we need to build tanks/warplanes/Liberty Ships faster than the enemy can destroy them(2).

In other words, we're inventing all these expensive new toys because the M-I Complex is BORED.

Notes:

  1. Every time I talk about military R&D, I'm reminded of that one movie about the development of the Bradley AFV, which used that "...billions. With a B." line to describe the cost overruns on the 'battlefield taxi' that, due to all these bells and whistles being added, was too slow to keep up with the tanks it was supposed to accompany, had armor too thin for real protection, and had a mini-turret gun too small to hurt armored targets and too large to legally aim at unarmored troops.
  2. And in the case of the Liberty Ships, we WERE building and launching them faster than they could be sunk by the enemy. Don't remember if that number included the ones that broke apart on launch, and I don't remember if they were intended for a reverse trip, or if the European Theater was supposed to dismantle them for the iron once they got there.
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#3

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 8:25 AM

Maybe the Zumwalt will be sort of like the space program: the science and engineering advances can be applied elsewhere, so the true value of this venture will be spread out.

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#4
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 8:29 AM

A lot of advances to humanity does come from the space program and rather ironically, from the military.

Most people (ones with a political agenda), doesn't realize it.

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#83
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Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/19/2016 12:01 AM

"A lot of advances to humanity...come...ironically, from the military."

And even more ironically, wars!

All one has to so is compare the survival rates between WWI and Iraqi Freedom.

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#5

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 9:03 AM

They had me at rail gun. Totally worth $4 billion apiece to see my Quake first person shooter dreams realized.

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#6

Re: USS Zumwalt, The Navy's Newest Masterpiece?

09/15/2016 10:12 AM

If it is anything like other defense projects lately it is most likely a cash cow for certain congressional lackeys. On the other hand, most advanced defense projects have much more to them than meets the eye. (or the Navy will admit) The design is the eye candy, the real interesting part is the power generation capacity and the reliance on electronics. One air burst nuke and its a floating target if conventional wisdom is applied. I find it difficult to believe a Navy that has as many nukes as ours would have overlooked EMP. There are a lots of interesting things about this vessel that are not readily explained in the press releases.

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