Cooking Onions: Newsletter Challenge (09/02/08)

Shut the burner off, and cover the pot the onions will cook in the boiling water after a period of time...

The idea is what? To "cook" with the least waste. Assuming we all have the same taste then to cook would mean, inject a fixed amount of calories. To make the question answerable we would all choose the same amount of "cooking". So then the question becomes, what method wastes the least? And for practicality perhaps how long it takes should be considered.

Adjust the water temperature with a thermometer to read just under the boiling point as we all know it to be 212ºF or 100ºC. Why? because after the pressure/temperature maximum more heat won't increase the water temperature it just wastes heat and your money for the energy bill. By keeping the water temp below that by the smallest observable amount the water will get just enough heat to do its job in the least time with the least waste. Of course you have a lid on the pot. It comes down to this, boil then simmer.

Hi, Bill Jordan!

A great big welcome to the murky world of CR4' puzzle lovers. Although calling the challenge a puzzle would grieve some of its most ardent adherents.

I agree with your assessment. Hope to continue seeing your name around the site in all kinds of areas of your interests.

Mark

Mark - thanks for the kind welcome. For many years I have had the idea a company could publish a need or a problem or the start of a concept and offer a respectable reward for the man who could produce the solution even to a man outside of the employ of that company. In my life's experience I have known brilliant and creative people with and without formal education who have continuously invented and solved and built and amazed the many.

Companies pay good money for educated engineers. They have the certificate but do they have the creativity to go with it? Can you take a college course and make yourself more creative? So lets say Boeing has 50 guys with engineering degrees and they're getting paid pretty good. Boeing wants to know how to build a prop jet that is 40% more quiet but the engineers haven't solved it. So, Boeing figures out that they could offer $5000.00 to anyone that could figure out how to make it work. Look at it. They spend $5000 instead of $40,000000 for the answer and everybody is happy. Maybe CR4 can figure it out. Why not give it a try!

I'll bet that CR4 people can solve just about any problem a company can present. There are people without positions or titles or educations that are of indispensible core value to solutions untaped. Many of them are here on CR4. Lets challenge companies to submit their issues and post their prizes. Why not?

Bill

I, for one, intend to propose using the Hadron collider to cook onions .....barring this lot who still have their heads in the pot.

Excellent idea you have there. $50 to anyone can invent solar grade optics.

You could probably fry the onions (finely diced) with less heat than you would need to bring the water to boil. And they would taste good too! All hail the Bar-B-Q.

Another Aussie Engineer.

The formal answer in invalid, or at least misses the point. Question asks method to cook onions in LEAST amount of time. Turning up the heat will not reduce the time. Cooking time depends on temperature. Once the water boils, it is saturated. It can't "hold" any more "heat". The temperature will stay constant (~100 C at sea level) until the last of the water boils. Assuming the onions are completely submerged the entire cooking time, additional heat doesn't cook them any faster. Supply 5 J or 5 MJ, it doesn't matter, the temperature is always the same. Balance heat input against heat loss to maintain boiling, and that's the best you can do. Covering and insulating the pot doesn't do anything to reduce the time to cook, it would only reduce the time to boil the water in the first place. If you want to decrease the cooking time, go down a mine shaft.

Hi, StylingKurt!

Welcome to the CR4 Mosh! It's great to have you aboard.

I'm kind of in agreement with you about the lack of detail of the official answer, because I think the pot has been losing heat at the same rate, depending upon the temperature added, since it began to be brought to a boil. So long as the temperature of the water can be maintained with onions included, adding 'all heat possible' is not a useful strategy. Also, adding a lid does several things to contribute to the conservation of heat as we have seen from some of the replies to the challenge. This indicates that at some point less application of heat to a lidded pot would be required to maintain the boil.

But I love the answer, since its obvious lack of consideration of the details will (probably) lead to even more entertaining discussion.

Mark

Thanks, and it's good to be here (officially), I've been lurking a long time. You've re-inforced good points. The question is ambiguous in its intent - minimize energy input, or time? Sometimes you can't do both things at once!

Please refer to posts 193 and 195. I believe I have answered the question of the least amount of time required to cook an onion.

I also believe that the amount of energy expelled in my technique is less than the others.

Hi, Duckinthepond!

Yup. Me too, in post # 13. 'Course we didn't at all choose the same answer, but I liked mine best too.

(I think the idea of moving up the mountain to get a boil at a lesser temp was very creative too, although I'm not certain the cooler onions would get actually get cooked that way.)

Mark

Mark

Although I agree with all your conclusions, as expressed they do not correspond to the challenge as posed; maybe there are a couple of words missing - i.e. " question DOES NOT ask method to cook onions in LEAST amount of TIME" to which I would add "it asks whether cooking in LEAST TIME is the correct method to MINIMISE ENERGY USE". Having said that, the formal answer is clearly complete garbage - regardless of whether the question is about minimising time or about minimising energy use.

So, the answer to the challenge as written is a resounding "no" - as elucidated by several of the contributors rated as having provided "Good Answers", and there really is nothing I can think to add to their answers.

Now what if the question were about minimising time? A sensible solution (for a pot that is not a pressure cooker) would be to turn the heat up until the pan returns to boiling, and then reduce the heat so that is just sufficient to maintain a rolling boil.
As described by others, the advantage of a rolling boil is that is minimises the thickness of the boundary layer at the surfaces of the onions, which allows the heat to penetrate the onion more rapidly.
But why then do I suggest reducing the heat input once the pot has reached boiling? This is to avoid the possibility that you will have to add extra water, which action will obviously cool the pan and therefore add to the time. I can see one potential variation on this - if the onions are not already in small pieces you may wish to cut them smaller while they are heating in the pan before replacing the lid.

The Question in no way asked for the "least amount of time." The false conjecture posed in the question (intended as a distraction) about turning up heat in order to bring onions to cooking temp quickly as a means to conserve energy has thrown you a curve. The objective was to cook with least use of energy at the burner/element...whether it be as a matter of completing the onion heat-up process quicker, or...cooking (i.e., leaving onions in and burner on) as long as needed. This would inarguably be the correct interpretation of the question from a full reading comprehension standpoint.

Question does not ask method to cook onions in LEAST amount of time. Reread the question. "At this point, you want to conserve as much energy as possible. What should you do?"

That answer stinks worse than the stinkin onions.

Bob, I can only assume your response is directed towards the official answer of this challenge.

Kurt

Yes.

At least you can plug your nose and eat the onions, I can't seem to swallow the answer!

That's the non-answer I've been waiting 5 weeks to read?

All I can say is:

I'm not playing this stupid answer game anymore. This answer is bogus!

Although I think the answer "blows" myself, I'm not gonna take my toys home and not play anymore.

I think you should place a cover on the pot, increase the source of heat until boiling resumes and then reduce the heat source to the point where very little steam escapes the pot until onions are cooked. This keeps the temp at 212 without wasting energy making more steam.

Hi, covinantaz!

A great big Welcome! to the CR4 blogsite. Good to have you and I hope to see lots more of you around the various discussions.

Good idea (of course I'm only stating this because I happened to be one of the others to express it as well) to cvr the p and rtn it to a bl. BTW, how're you gonna know the pot has returned to the boil if there's a lid on it at the time. Is this a lid with a boil detector in it?

Mark

"Is this a lid with a boil detector in it?"

Would that be called a vent?

Hi, Guest!

OK. I guess the boil would show with a lazy wisp of steam even coming out through the crack between the pot lid and the pot if you didn't have the boil detector (ummm 'vent') on the lid.

Mark

Maybe the lid is made of glass as many of mine are.

Or maybe it whistles like an old-time teakettle. Looks as if we have concensus that the "official" answer is full of onions.

It's full of something allright!

OK guys - in that case why not use the 'report' facility and shop the posting for scatology?

Why not make up some phony name?

The water will boil and run over the sides and extinguish the fire from the gas stove. The onions will continue to cook until the gas leak finds the pilot light from the water heater. At that time the cooked onions will be served to the nearby neighbors.

No, whenever I boil water, it gives off steam which pushes it's way out past the lid. It's then easy to turn the heat down until the steam flow remains very small. I do it often.

OK....this for the kitchen cretiniaii.

Place onion in pressure cooker and above water level. Seal lid to 100psi. Spray insulating foam on outside of pressure cooker. Turn on heat.

Disclaimer: Heat unit amount to be pre-determined otherwise seek legal advice re; divorce.