Select Your Favourite Invention

Garthh,

Thank you, but I have a lot of resources for programming. What I need is INPUT from engineers who use specifications day-in and day-out, so that the software is really a tool that they will use to organize these complex issues. and so far, I have none.

Chris.

Hi Chris

You have increased your chances of finding one though. I am certain this is not over yet. Good Luck, Ky.

What I meant was you should ask if there is a existing solution or system that would do what you want, at least have a better idea of the competition does for such tasks.

you know reinventing the wheel and all that...

Here's a different engineering forum, you may already be familiar with.

http://www.eng-tips.com/

you may want to ask for feedback there

okay.. I get you.

thanks

Chris,

R.E., "ps.. wish I knew how to make these images bigger, but legible too. every time I stretch it, it gets fuzzier."

1) If you don't already have one, get a domain name on the net of your very own, for you alone.

2) Build 300 DPI original images of what you are illustrating. Make them so HUGE that if one were to use an antiquated MS Paint program to view them - they would only show, say, 1/8th of the image in the top left corner if full screen. Once completed, make a thumbnail of that image or make a copy and reduce it to, say, less than 6 X 6 or whatever size that you are normally used to uploading.

3) Upload both to your domain website into a sub-directory of your choosing. I.E.,
www.ChrisG.CA/widget1/bigImage.jpg and littleImage.jpg (if your webpage editor doesn't make thumbnails).

4) Insert a copy of a boilerplate html file in that sub-directory. (These are pre-built by you to have the fonts and common items imbedded into a stand alone web page, so you don't have to set them up each time you create a new web page. Don't make frames - many, many browsers and firewalls are set to disallow them. Many service providers' don't allow one to leave them once a frame is opened. That will make enemies of friends in a hurry, who made the mistake of not opening a seperate browser window to follow a link. Make stand alone web pages and for goodness sake don't put a bunch of scripts into them to track folks. Web aware types HATE those things.).

Use an html editor to open the boilerplate html page; rename it, retitle it, such that it's unique on your domain (Your memory WON'T Get it! As prolific as you are, you'll never be able to find anything without a search tool, without a unique name system.). Insert the littleImage.jpg into that webpage if your webpage editor doesn't make thumbnails. Again, using the webpage editor, create a hyperlink to the BigImage.jpg. Insert a text comment into the littleImage.jpg. If your webpage editor DOES make thumbnails, use it to select and load the BigImage.jpg and then make it into a thumbnail with an automatic link to its large iteration. Be sure to make a pop up text message saying this.

5) When you are posting: Start your post; open a separate browser window with webpage in your domain with the small littleImage.jpg in your separate browser window. Highlight the littleImage.jpg ONLY. Hit Control + C.

6) Place the cursor on the Post, where you want the littleImage.jpg to show and hit Control + V. When you do this method the littleImage.jpg with the imbedded hyperlink will now be "active." If you also inserted a pop-up message in the littleImage on the domain website that said something like, "Click me for a larger view," this will, of course, clue in those who hover their cursor over the image, depending on their browser. In some cases, only the cursor would change to a different type such as an arrow to a finger/hand pointer, at any rate that one could see that there was a dynamic link to another (larger) version just like an underlined text hyperlink...

I've read and seen a lot of your work and know that you already have most of the know how to do this extra, finishing step, into your own hyper-linked imagery. Hope this wasn't over-kill.

Lastly: This being a thread, many of those who are reading this recognize that this particular dialogue is off topic. For that I appologize. However, for those who can use this information to further their own interestes and projects, you are welcome. My interest is supportive of the creative intention of this thread -whatever helps us all to achieve more efficient, less wasteful methods to do useful works - that is my aim.

Tinker65

awesome thank you.. I was trying to get some available space going with my ISP, but their system got stoopid on me, so I had to give up for now, but I've printed out your instructions. GA chris

Chris- Check out OpenProject on www.sourceforge.net for some ideas on linking. Although this is project management software, it may give you some good ideas about how to link various resources- and some good ideas about what not to do! Also, Firefox has an add-in I find quite useful that may help, called Zotero that is quite useful for linking and notating. One of the biggest problems with compliance is determining just exactly what constitutes compliance. Reading specifications is a daunting task, especially if they are of the generic type. The most important feature of your project might be the initial identification of the "bullet points" that are critical for compliance, from all the mountains of documents you have to reference. Are you sure VB6 is the appropriate language for this effort? Charlie

Charlie,

thanks for the comments. You wrote "One of the biggest problems with compliance is determining just exactly what constitutes compliance." This is exactly the purpose of my software, as it focuses on the relationship between specification, and ALL items that are compliance related, either directly, or by reference. I looked at the Zotero screenshot, but I believe that it won't deliver the same focus, which was my target. I consider this relationship essential to the software intent. Also, specifications are frequently secure, so then the software must have built in the capability to handle secure data, and manage that in an 'information lifecycle' way (revision control)

As far as the breakdown of specifications, I agree.. its daunting. This is another place where this application would be beneficial. If authoring organizations were using a "Computer Aided Specification and Compliance" application, the would design the spec to conform to the requirements of the application. This would help everyone, author, user, and auditor alike, as it gives a common methodology for all three, that does not restrict the scope or expression of the specification unduly. That also is my intent.

As far as VB6 goes.. the core idea is to have a few hundred to a few thousand nodes in a tree. I will test on that.. but otherwise the information is loaded on an as-needed basis, so not a burden. Even with the tree, some could be loaded on an as-needed basis, to lighten the burden. Also, VB and VBA are the languages that I know... so if and when the time comes that such an application develops beyond the capacity of vb, then I would have to get someone else to code it. but in this day and age, vb6 is pretty robust and fast I think, for office applications.

Chris

Hi Chris,

I think SIEMENS PLM has it included......

PLM stands for >>Product Lifecycle Management<<.

What You propose is Hypertext Editor and Database combined.

Wish I could find time to discuss this and help, since I am old pro in programming.

Right now I work mainly on my inventions (listed here on this thread).

It may interest You that I suceeded to invent stationary Solar concentrator (without heliostat mechanism) and solved problem of >>deadly shade<< solar concentrators create. It would also have zero footprint as it could be used as huge >greenhouse<.

I submitted Patent Application papers for my Windpower stations.

Right now it would help me to know which is best device simulation software, as I tried severall, just to find they are useless since neither can test all at same time, and most require formulas to be input by user. IMHO, that should be an option, not a requirement, and all standard formulas should be built in by software company.

I have pretty clear idea how to make perfect simulation program, just need money to hire physicist to help me with formulas.

In regard to enlarging pictures, You should use RAM based DC (Device Content) that is screen compatible, of large size, write or draw on it and then use stretching to make it smaller on screen, or any size in between You wish without losing details or developing jagged lines.

I used this trick because printer resolution was 600 Dpi while screen is just 72 Dpi, and just like in Your case, stretching things up from screen resolution resulted in horrible pictures.

However, I used GFA32 BASIC, and even if this is designed to be allmost VB compatible, I don't know if VB can do same things.......

But it is now freeware so You can download it and see if it would be more useful than VB. It is much faster and make more compact EXE files.

Regards, Marijan Pollak

well Chris, maybe we can be mutually beneficial (you tell me).

I was the administrative clerk over prototype and testing for UNICOR Federal Prison Industries. I was responsible for creating, filing and storing, testing forms as they related to the usually unique (prototyping and testing) products created inside of Federal Prisons, using all applicable standards to create testing equipment. I also kept and insured implementation of all OSHA standards.

Maybe a giveaway, but I spent 1991 until 2005 under the aegis of the United States Department of Justice as a prisoner.

If names help you feel better: Robert James Howard, Jr.

Thank you for your honesty and courage. There was no need to make that public. I have done a little work on this project since the original posting.. but it is not on the top of my pile right now.. but pm me what you are thinking about it.

Thank you

Chris

"I have come up with an idea to make it easy (he said and nearly fainted) to choose an invention for further development."

The externally heated Stirling engine has been around for about 200 years and untold R&D financing has been spent in attempting to produce a version adaptable to mass marketing. All to no avail.

The Stirling engine is deceivingly simple. Examine a model Stirling engine, which will run on almost any heat source such as the heat of your hand to a cup of hot coffee. Such models can be built from tin cans and junk by observing a few rules.

A power producing Stirling engine can not be realized by scaling up one of these simple models! The design and construction requires a thorough understanding of engineering, physics, heat transfer, etc. As a result existing Stirling engines are limited in variety, are constructed of exotic materials, are very expensive, and are employed in niche applications where their return on investment is acceptable.

Is it possible that someone on CR4 will solve this enigma?

3. Cooling and Heating Device for Home and Restaurant. (Instead of air conditioning, infra red or gas heating)

Hi Stan, good to hear from you.

In your reply you must be referring to suggestion #3. Although it takes advantage of thermodynamics in some way, it is in no way utilizing the workings of a Stirling engine. I should have mentioned in the title that conventional energy sources are used but to a much lesser degree. With this innovation I try to save energy, not to eliminate its use altogether.

Again, like with my toaster, it is a combination of parts that make the difference. A change in design, if you like.

I have several working proto types which are in use on a daily basis. As you know, we live in an area of high temperatures and humidity. Due to the innovation not being visible, at first glance, no stranger visiting will know it is even there. This is to protect me from making it public knowledge and only close friends know why it is cool or, in winter, warm in my house. Not that it ever gets really cold, we are just wimps when it comes to degrees below 20C, plus that is.

Like I said, it still uses a conventional power source. Plans to run it on solar are in the pipeline but will make it more expensive, at the moment.

Is it possible that someone on CR4 will solve this enigma?

We all know that this enigma could only be solved as the result of illusion/delusion. If some one would make such a claim, good luck to them!

I could show some Photos here to demonstrate to you what this is about but I will refrain. One step at a time. Unless you are good buddies with the owner or CEO of an electrical appliance manufacturer you will have to wait until it turns up at Wall Mart. If they are still in existence at that time that is.

Star Bucks, McDonald's or any other large ''restaurant" chain would jump on it. It would mean more comfort for the guests while saving energy for the proprietor. This does not exclude smaller establishments or private households.

This potential market could convince the potential manufacturer that there is a market out there and the product will not end up in some warehouse and stay there like the ugly puppy in an animal shelter.

If Star Bucks (etc.) has it, we can have it, sort of a campaign. You would never have to run a commercial on TV to make it popular.The word of mouth would do the job. If I had the choice I would know were I would be seated.

I hope this has clarified matters in some way and kept me out of the loony bin for the time being. Your critical and analytic comments have been well received. Lets hope for the best!

Have a great day Stan, all the best! Ky.

In your reply you must be referring to suggestion #3

Hmmm: I don't think so. I think Stan was just starting a new branch to the thread.

In general I agree: we need an "inventors corner" on CR4 with a slightly different "protocol" for voting and getting involved.

This thread has gained quite a lot of momentum slowly (which is unusual), and, without degenerating into off topic diversions (which is unusual).

One thing I think you may have missed from your original plan is that each "project" needs to list the skills required to be added to the originators to make up the "team". [In particular several of your listed ideas may require an electronic engineers input OR an electrical engineers input OR both. (if an electronic engineer you may even want to specify analogue or digital).] (Sorry I've degenerated to drivel: nearly started subdividing the analogue and digital skills.)

Hi Randall

Hmmm: I don't think so. I think Stan was just starting a new branch to the thread.

After reading through Stan's response again I think you are right. Over worked under paid and too bloody self centered, that's what I am. Not much damage done I suppose, unless Stan has taken the illusion/delusion bit as a personal affront. I know Stan since some time now and hope he, in his wisdom, can forgive me. Thanks Stan.

When designing this post I had difficulties getting my head around the protocol of voting. Basically I thought that from some stage on one would send inquiries to the CR4 mailbox (send private message button) to stay confidential and not to disclose revealing details until such time when the parties have built up sufficient trust. A huge obstacle for inventors and their inventions.

This thread has gained quite a lot of momentum slowly (which is unusual), and, without degenerating into off topic diversions (which is unusual).

I am a bit surprised about that my self. It seems that most participants are aware of the importance/necessity of the post and its aim, that is, to come out and be reflected upon. Other options of evaluating inventions are not really to be recommended.

To be charged hundreds of bucks by "Invention Help Organizations" that have only their own interests in mind, will help nobody. They would declare any new "mouse trap" a sensation in this field and slowly start up the suction mode device they have standing around some where. (Greed was the inventor of that one). Keeping the would be inventor on his toes and in that state of anticipation of success.

Another irrational option is to seek assistance or help, even financial, from friends or family. They, in most cases, are in no position to evaluate the invention and as a result friendships and families can brake up or be tainted. Mostly they want to avoid hurting the "inventor" with disruptive/critical remarks and go along with the usually under developed idea. Trusting his or her enthusiasm only. The invention will be left by the side of the road in the end, because there was no support network in place to go all the way.

Patent Attorneys are of the same usefulness (No, no, not all Ky!). Their search for prior art can be very unhelpful, to say the least. One of my inventions was clearly copied one day, so I rang my Attorney and he already new about it. It had been in the Sunday papers as the next best thing in the "sliced bread department" and was presented as a new invention. Practically the same thing I had come up with.

This inventor had used the same firm and nobody had told him that only a few years before had I already created the same (prior art). This should have been picked up, considering it was done through the same firm. When I approached the firm they argued they could not intervene because there was a conflict of interest. How is that for unscrupulous behavior? Both inventors suing each other, then using different firms, so just to keep the clock ticking over. Standard procedure!! and very, very destructive. I could have sued but jumping into a spin cycle is not one of my favorite past times.

(Sorry I've degenerated to drivel: nearly started subdividing the analogue and digital skills.)

Not at all Randall and even if, it is still more constructive and more intelligent than the above mentioned options or schemes. The longer one can keep things in house (CR4) the clearer the results, if any.

Most of the inventions presented need no special attention in the fields you have mentioned. Any potential manufacturer would have the skills set/base to get the product to the market. Nothing new in the land of electrical engineering, software, injection molding or mechanics when it comes to realizing them.

Your reply has been well received and I hope that the mix up with Stan has confirmed my tendency to some times getting things wrong.

Have a great day Mate. Ky.

Hey Ky, Chris, others, I have a couple of thoughts or observations; one, related to a means in accomplishing a working prototype. Secondly and absolutely no offense, but nothing on the list interests me personally and some I don't have the expertise in if it did. Regardless of the interest, and maybe you guys have discussed this and I'm not seeing it, but for me, I like to build and make things work and test. How do you envision as the one to make, with expenses included in developing and building the working prototype for any idea from a collective. I have my own ideas to that but again, having been in this game for awhile it gets complicated unless EVERYTHING is spelled out and all involved know exactly who's doing what and who's paying for what and how that's to be accomplished.

Time is very important to me and thus is accepted as "donated" or is compensated in some form of budget. R&D gets expensive. As working engineers or scientists they expect to eliminate the variables before building a working prototype but nothing is 100%, thus the time and expense in R&D. Personal involvement as inventors is the excitement of the accomplishment of improving on or generating a completely or mostly new idea(s) and bringing it to fruition. The idea of a collective is attractive, Chris has spelled out in some detail a methodology to start, but when it gets down to the "nuts and bolts" of it all, without some agreed upon methods and written agreements and detailed directives to accomplish a working prototype, the flame of enthusiasm will burn out.

Part of that flame is the goal! Who's it going to be realistically marketed to is probably, foremost, before the energy goes into any idea. Providing a means to selling the idea or concept or production is the goal. I still like the "collective" idea in order to enhance the technical in order to be financially motivated with a realistic well proven approach to marketing the invention. My experience with private inventors is like that of my life with musicians. Great musicians as with scientists engineers and the like are NOT usually good business people. I've been self employed since 16. You learn a few things about selling, then you learn the technical aspects of business and then technology.

You've discussed trust, NDA's etc(which are pretty worthless in the real world in most cases), there are a few ways I wont get into here, that eliminate much need for large basis of trust.

The best idea doesn't mean squat if you have no means and ability to get it out into some market somewhere. Speculation is shaky at best, real contacts with written agreements towards the inventions proven results is a bit more bankable. It is never very easy either with all the legal issue related, logistics and importantly timing and competition to name just a couple of hurdles. Don't get me wrong here and I'm not trying to be a buzz kill by any means, just that the Cart before the horse is what I'm reading within this thread.

If you find a collective that wants to work on an idea, what truly is the motivation? Working things backwards usually works in regards to inventing. Attractive to the collective: Many minds can figure out anything that needs to be accomplished with good organization. A good team can accomplish damn near anything related to making and idea work. So is the same for getting your idea out to a market place preferably without getting short ended. Just a few more thoughts to chew on.

I would be interested to participate if the motivations and organization is in place when a realistically obtainable goal has been determined. Job descriptions for the players and the basis covered by all the players and who those players are, what real time they can COMMIT (commitment is a whole other issue!) to, then I see long term success. I have many good proven contacts and methods for introducing to the right markets and means to approach them with the right well developed and tested ideas. For me, without a buyer, what's the point, we all value our time. Lets make it worth wile for those placing that time into whatever idea that may be. Just a note, only 14 people have commented in this thread. How interested and are they?

Just to make a relation to marketing; Obviously anything "green" that has real results that can be related to any country on an means to bring better efficiency to any thing related to bringing a better "quality of life" (seen that in a ton of grants). Along those lines has a much larger "market" and with a "great" idea that really makes an improvement will do well in that kind of market. The chances of it getting sold is higher than an isolated market place.

You and Ky might well check with Garthh asking for a review according to our experiences with Apix Sep and Agro Biogenics. MICE. Money Ideology Compromise & Ego, make people do what they do. That is KGB for recruiting. I add Spontaneous Affection from the I Ching, when I asked the question What Makes People Do What They Do. Seems completed then. Garthh and I and some others on the site have had similar ambitions. Much time has been spent over two years hashing things out and attempting to come to some forward and formal work. Sociology does say that for an organization to thrive and grow, and maintain, it must have a real space of its own. As far as the 14 who have commented, the typical membership participating at any one time is about 150, so that is a good percentage.

Similar in that product was supposedly created. Other products for converting wastes to energy, or products discussed. Periodic bursts of correspondence. Think Tank? Sustainable Energy Blog instituted. Good. There is that. I mentioned some precepts of Sociology because they apply to organizations regardless of the business that that organization is in. What makes an airplane fly? Answer: Money. Say you meet somebody on the train, and have a conversation over beers in the bar car. You get along and have similar interests. Your talents and training compliment your interests. You write a business plan. You go to the bank together. Hey Banker!, We Get Along! Joe has a great idea! Me and Joe get along. Joe and I are great guys! Joe and I are committed! How about you give us some money to open an office and a factory making this wonderful thing that Joe made we can sell for a profit! Banker says, "Yeah, it's a great idea, what you got for collateral?" Imagine we here Ky and us decide we have met on the CR4 train, and want to start an invention company? Where would we get the money to do such a thing? "No Ticki, No Washi." Funny thing about business. True thing is it is not really how much money you have, but how much you have to use. Another funny thing is you may well have a great idea, but there are ideas floating around all over the place. I have discovered that people and personalities committed to a business are more important actually than the ideas. Want to form a company and make some money? Lets make a list of who we are, and what we do and then all buy insurance on each other and sign a paper that says when we die, the insurance will be paid to the company. Is that the collateral we can take to the bank? Will the Bank of Singapore or Bank of America, or Bank of Australia give us money to open an office? One of the most successful inventors of all time was Thomas Edison. He had a lab. Menlo Park. Gottah have a place to work. Progress through Fun! Real Businesses Have Insurance!

Thank you for trying to see things in a humorous and colorful way. Let me comment on the serious side of things.

What makes an airplane fly? Answer: Money.

I have discovered that people and personalities committed to a business are more important actually than the ideas.

I completely disagree with the above. Let me explain by using the following example:

Instead of coming up with an idea some one comes up with a pet. You found it, obviously homeless. Just came out of nowhere and completely unannounced. Yes, a little animal of some kind. Cute, big watery eyes, you know the ones that you just have to pick up and hug and caress. Just like an idea, that can spring up out of some place or region of the brains.

Here comes the problem: You don't know the breed or how big it's going to be one day. You don't know if it has inherited a vicious gene nor do you know if it is prone to a certain disease. All you know is that it looks sooo cute and you tend to it with love and affection. I am still having inventions in the back of my mind! You can find them completely unprepared. You don't even know if it has a prior owner and that he might want it back one day.

At this stage, now that it has grown a bit, you ask your wife or kids to take care of the feeding for a while. Because they like this little critter, they help out and you can go and make some money to buy the food. You have not listened to the advice of a neighbor who had warned all involved that this little puppy might way 100kg one day. This will become a challenge sooner or later.

You make the smart move and start looking for people who would like to take this pet on but by now it is a 300 pound monster. You tell them how cute and cuddly it once was but they don't listen. They see this out of control, not even fully grown animal as what it is. A pain in the neck! Uncontrollable and not responding to your needs or demands.

Then, luck strikes and you meet some one on the CR4 train who specializes in that breed and knows exactly what to expect once it reaches maturity, or so he says. He advises you to find a larger kennel for the animal and take out insurance because it could become quiet demanding/agitated if not fed on time with just the right food and drink. "It" has now taken over your life and the life of your loved ones.

All has been OK so far and you even had CNN around to show off your "little pet". This is were some one clicks and offers you to become your partner. He will pay for food, shelter and all other things necessary. He is thinking of breeding them (mass production) but does not mention that the gene technology is not safe enough yet.

You find out (CNN) that it has been rumored to be a very dangerous animal indeed and don't know or can't decide how to proceed. "IT" has taken on a life of its own and you haven't cared for the missus or the kids in years. That cute little thing has now become part of every body's life. The bigger "IT" grows the more attention it needs.

Because you have partners by now, you can't just take your gun and kill the thing. (joint property). It will have to be fed for years to come and becomes more and more demanding by the day.

All this could have been avoided if one would have only put in more research at the very beginning and not made decisions based on emotions. Oh how cute, this is better than sliced bread! sort of approach.

The invention is the driving force. Its function, marketability, looks etc. The better it sells the more nourishment and care it will need/demand. Not to mention the Staff and the Lawyers that will be part of it by now. The invention is the driving force. It is demanding and needs extreme care when handled. One wrong move and it could turn into a monster.

I have flopped so many times that I wonder why I am still at it. Must be in my genes. I am learning all the time and do not think I am bullet proof. Sometimes it is not a good idea to be too protective though. It hinders the flow of things more often that not.

I have discovered that people and personalities committed to a business are more important actually than the ideas.

If an idea is born and after all, it does not work to plan, it can be very annoying to say the least. Get over it and start again with something new. If it does work, be afraid, be very afraid, because it will grow and, if you are not prepared, it will eat you alive. The CR4 train will just pass the station and leave you (us) standing at the platform.

What makes an airplane fly? Answer: Money.

I think one of the Wright brothers said "You can make a barn door fly if you only have a big enough engine." Is that what you meant?

What makes an invention "fly" is not always related to the size of the engine but some times the complete lack of it! Like with that little beast, you have to know your next step way in advance and take advice when it is given. Or seek it like I am doing with this post.

It is the orchestra that plays the notes but the composition rules. It is the engineering specialists who cover the technical problems and the idea rules the roost. Cart before the horse? I don't think so! You can throw as much money at an unrealistic idea as you like, you will not get a return on your investment and that is what it is all about in the end.

I'll leave it at that, for now and thank you for your constructive thinking. The rains have not stopped here but we roll with the punches and make the best of it.

Talk to you soon, Ky.

PS: Not to mention the fun one can have while being "Down and Under"

Hey, I was as serious as you get. I have discovered that people and personalities committed to a business are more important actually than the ideas, was hard won information. It is of interest to me that Jesus said, "Follow me." He did not say follow my ideas. I've got some pets. I have to feed them. Cats are smart. They leave if you don't feed them. Make a Flag and put it up in your yard. Flags are a unique work. I've done that and found out. Thought the same as you do now, but found out it was not viable. I found out that people and their connections were more viable than the one idea, of the one individual. Hence then that is why I say what I say. In the questionnaire you have evidence of my knowledge of work. Also you have evidence of my concept and idea. Great idea aye? Sent Garthh a copy. He and Del are my main CR4 friends from entrance into this forum. Check with them to see if I am out of my mind. I do not disagree with you really. I wish that the world was different from what it really is. Just it is I have discovered that it is as it is.

I agree a bit with Ky on this one even though your examples of meeting on a train etc, is about how a lot of partnerships and business transactions of my past started. But the idea itself or invention is truly like ky said the motivator, particularly if it meets all the needs and requirements of supply and demand. It doesn't all need to hinge on banks either. I've found private investment by sound business minded people are far better than banks and are more worthy of the rewards of a great business plan executed to it's ultimate fruition. People see through BS real fast even a clever BS'r. Those individuals with experience in life and know how to read people and their own instincts are the people you want behind your ideas and or your business partners. Especially as investors. Everyone in touch with success will be successful.

Transcending Your point(s) are well taken.

As it happens I took a leave from this thread for a number of days - right after your comment above was posted. While away as it happens I was walking behind the couches where family were watching American Idol and stopped to watch that Brit, Simon, the producer of the show, make a cold, cutting comment about one of the candidates. If I had not recently read your post I probably would have shrugged and walked on bye, out the door and into my shop to tinker. But, my mentoring angel rooted me there long enough to realize that your comment and others on this thread talk about the love/hate relationship between creative genius and cold blooded money grubbers.

That guy Simon is just as important to creative talent as the creative talent is to him - a guy who has no artistic side beyond seeing what is marketable in creative artists and what will make lots of money. It is all well and good to have imaginations and have earth shaking concepts chaffing at the bit. But it occurred to me at that moment in time that without a profit motivated bozo on the team - most creative efforts will be lost in the background noise. The trick, it would seem, is to have a contract with one of these sharks, that guarantees the creative part of the team ascendancy in the event of disputes. One HAS to get it into writing. "If it isn't written, it isn't true," according to a creative genius of the last century who's name slips, just now. When money is involved, it's pure stupidity to rely on anyone's good intentions or their words of good faith.

My two bits.

Only in the performance art does talent come into play, and talent in that case is usually the result of perseverance and practice.

Well that's probably overstating it a bit, some people have natural ability which can be enhanced. not every rocket scientist is Goddard, there is a certain amount of luck involved.........

Ky made a good point a few posts ago

A bit of respect is what I am missing some times. Like, I really respect my accountant and I could even call him a friend. But how ever hard he tries to understand an idea he is just flattened. He has that "bit" missing. On the other hand, if he explains the $ side to me I can follow the principles until the last cent. Not only will the accountant not be able to understand the technical details, he may resent you for trying to bring him along on that little ride. Most people like to stay well within their comfort zones [most of us here are exceptions to that]

I would agree that there's no need to be rude.

When a business gets larger, it is mandatory to have lawyers & accountants.

The kind of lawyers & accountants that aren't so nice, to deal with other people who aren't nice [including customers].

It is certainly a worthy goal to deal with only people you like & get along with...it's not really practical as a business owner. You gotta figure out how to have productive mutually profitable exchanges of all types. I understand quitting a job, because the pay was not worth the emotional bullshit you had to put up with.... Depending on the product you will have to compromise your ideals.

While what you say is basically true, my days of wanting to run a business are over.

Today, my ideal existence would be to invent, build and debug the prototype to the point where production is feasible. I would then hand it to others who would bash it through all the business of marketing, dealing with all the business and finance honchos and run the business.

I recognize that these people have an important part to play and, while I could probably deal with their areas if I really had to, my strengths lie more in developing new ideas.

It appears to me that there is a real opening for some honest entrepreneur to seek out people like me and ky and the many other inventive people on this site. He could make a fortune bringing others ideas to market, to the benefit of all concerned.

As it is, if you bring the most brilliant idea, well developed and eminently marketable, to a bank, they basically say "Is it real estate? No? Not interested"

This is despite the fact that they frequently lose on real estate development projects.

However, they understand what land and bricks and mortar are. They have a definite distrust of engineering.

I could expand on this beef considerably, but my question, addressed to the wrong people as we have negligible marketing, entrepreneurial types on this forum, is why not support the numerous people who simply want to innovate. You could make a lot of money by helping them do just that.

G'day Tinker

I can see what you mean and have only one thing to ad: It is even worse than one thinks.

"If it isn't written, it isn't true,"

Even if all is in writing and sealed signed and delivered, for the sharks of this world, it is open hunting season. They can do what ever they want and are protected by a legal system that favors the paying customer, the rich man. If you have not got the funds to defend your self you are/have lost.

If you have not got the funds to apply for and consequently receive a patent and come up with the annual renewal fees your are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Like I said, not only do we have to invent but we have to be aware of all the dangers lurking and be willing and able to live it out. Good luck to us then! I am looking forward to the future because a good thing can not be held down for ever. Many of us have a few irons in the fire so the chances of succeeding are greater but by no means a given.

American/Australian Idol is catering for a certain kind of audience. Every one is in the position that he/her deserves. Well, maybe not that Simon guy! We only see snippets of the US version but I think he is the one that looks like a mid fifties pimp? Never mind, most will never wake up.

Thanks for tinkering, Ky.

Ky,

Yeppers, your simile that Simon appears similar to a pimp is spot on, though I'd have never noticed... I don't normally watch much TV - too distracting from my hobby/inventing/cobbling activities in my shop balanced by web design and consulting work in the real world...

A friend of mine of years ago, whom I met up in the White Mountains of Arizona where he was hiding out with his asthma ridden wife, was a formerly active chemical engineer from California who invented a none toxic way to recycle PC Boards for the electronic industry. He used some of the elements of one process to catalyse and create the stuff that cannibalized the boards in such a way that one could drink the liquid out of the vats after the whole mess went through half dozen processes. NO TOXIC waste. Tasted somewhat like soda water. He never patented it because HE was the only person that understood how he'd accomplished the process and he was insuring that no one could steal the process and make him broke in court trying to prove that they had stolen it from him.

His name is Kramer... a relative of another genius who makes plug in hybrids in California, by the way.

Anyway - someone in the toxic disposal business sicked the E.P.A. on his operation. Kramer said he could tell within two minutes that the inspector was a bureaucrat with zero understanding of engineering or chemistry. Kramer refused to divulge his process or give up data to anyone about it. So they shut him down with national guards with assault rifles and chain link fences around his plant when he arrived to work the next day. Kramer is pretty sure that they never did learn how he affected his processes but if they did, no one is using it because he says otherwise EVERYONE would be using it without doubt. All the precious metals mined from the sludge were making him richer than Jehovah, while the party lasted, and he was getting healthy fees from the outfits who were delivering their toxic PCB's to be disposed of, from the get go.

My point? If it isn't written it isn't true. Having said that, If it IS written and it isn't true for you, it still isn't true. Hmmm? Kramer is living proof that every rule has an exception. Too bad he got shafted out of his business/process/invention for refusing to put it all in writing. He will be the first to admit that loosing out to the E.P.A. made him more than a little crazy. The last time I saw him in his mountain retreat he was making wind chimes out of antique cutlery, gleaned while cleaning out old attics for free. That's what he was doing for a living. True story.

Hi all,

Ky this all very interesting & exciting, I've just skimmed through it for the 1st time. I'll put in my 2 cents soon...

Thanks Garthh

The more the merrier. Hope somthing will come out of this. For all involved! Hear from you soon, Ky.

naturalextraction

Thank you for that excellent reply. I will try and give some clarifications as follows.

How do you envision as the one to make, with expenses included in developing and building the working prototype for any idea from a collective.

In most of my innovations/inventions the idea has been tested through several prototype stages,sometimes assisted by CAD. The ones not having been proto typed are of a very basic standard(easy to understand) and all parts, materials, suppliers etc. have been researched and/or in some cases lead times have been established.

In my original post I mentioned that a certain stage of development would need to be established so that a presentation could become possible if willing participants would be found. Suggested projects should be in the final stages were most of the work is done and special, identified expertise is needed to bring it to fruition.

From original post:

Step 2.

One could get a better understanding of the stage of development of the idea if the table below is ticked off (y = yes, n = no), while still not giving away too much. This is to indicate at what stage of development the invention is. Early stage ideas have not as much merit as proto typed or even patented ones. All suggested inventions should be at least 30% cheaper, faster, more energy saving etc than similar products or services. They can be completely new and not available on the market at all. They could be an innovation (improvement on existing).

Sample of step 2:

Title of Invention: External insulation method for new and existing structures

Industries involved: Insulation, Plastics (recycled) and Distribution/Retailing.

The title and the intended application/function are the only things to go by at first. No technical details will be published. If, for example, the title of the invention and what it does is liked by the reader/member then they can vote for it.

If you are an injection molder you could take over the part of making a dye and receive the manufacturing rights for the future. The only investment would be setting up the dye. If you can contribute in designing a circuit, that will be your responsibility. If you are a Patent Attorney, you might decide to do a pro bono or a free patent search. What ever you specialize in could become your contribution and make you a partner in the idea in the future. My contribution could be in the design or proto type development and others, depending on the invention.

The idea of a collective is attractive, Chris has spelled out in some detail a methodology to start, but when it gets down to the "nuts and bolts" of it all, without some agreed upon methods and written agreements and detailed directives to accomplish a working prototype, the flame of enthusiasm will burn out.

I thought that should be left to the contributor of the idea and to us, in some way. If, for example, you would run into some one who is interested or has a problem with his software you would let this person know that you have heard of this guy in CR4 (in this case Chris) who could have a/the solution. That, referring to Chris, would already be more than Chris, or others, would have had if he/they had not "come out of the closet" with his/her concept. It increases the odds to get the idea to be known and talked about.

All aspects of negotiating with the "potential partner" could be left to the initiator. I know this is a big problem as you have so rightly stated. Not tackling it will not make it go away.

A good team can accomplish damn near anything related to making and idea work. So is the same for getting your idea out to a market place preferably without getting short ended.

This is the principle idea. To find people, that have expertise in a required field and who are willing to donate their time or funds or whatever for the realization of the invention or concept or whatever. This can only be done, as you have determined, if all parties are fully informed and keep up with time tables or just simple agreements or commitments.

The authenticity of the good will can, again, only be judged by the person contributing the initial idea. Spending money on Lawyers should be the last thing to be ticked off the list. Once they have their say things could get a bit confusing but with trust and good will these expenses can be cut to a minimum.

It is interesting that you should mention that working with inventors can be a bit of a strain at times. I must have been a royal pain in the butt many a times. Being a bean counter and an inventor at the same time has to be learned and is hard to be taught. I seem to have settled a bit.

It can be very much related to forming a band like you have suggested in some way. All members have to know on what page they are on at all times and have to be good at what they do. Otherwise no bums on seats. If you have own material and it is appreciated by all band members then it will be played the way it has to, because the members know how to play it. Then rehearsals are on the cards. Never 100% but as good as it gets.

the flame of enthusiasm will burn out.

Bad song material or players and the flame of enthusiasm will burn out.

Don't get me wrong here and I'm not trying to be a buzz kill by any means, just that the Cart before the horse is what I'm reading within this thread.

The alternative is the horse before the cart, right? That is the case in huge multinational R+D departments with set goals and sometimes outdated ideals, methods are supported by huge (Tax deductible) investments. That horse before the cart hardly moves and if, only with blinkers on. The cart will be moved to exactly were it is supposed to go. If the cart is before the horse then move the horse or the cart and get going.

A friend on CR4 has called "the cart before the horse" disruptive technologies. The ones, that don't fit into existing mid- and long term plans of said large corporations. Is this what you were referring To?

Let me explain, just for the heck of it. If one would have invented a mouse trap that kills 100 mice in one hit, every one with a mouse problem would want one. This would disrupt the business of the major mouse trap manufacturer (the one with the horse before the cart) and he would be on his hind legs to discredit the new version or to stop it altogether. He would either be pushed out of the market or he would have to decide to re-tool and manufacture the new version. Disruptive for the one who, until now, has had a monopoly on mouse traps. With out any of his input he suddenly finds his cart before the horse. If he does not change he will be out of business.

Getting to your very important remark about time: Time is very expensive and not only regarding the monetary implications. Money is even more expensive as we can now all see and witness. Time and timing is directly related to the effort and how many people are involved. A big and clumsy project will need a lot of energy to get it moving and all parties have to push in the same direction and at the same time. Once a project is started and funds are committed one can not just stop because of a little hick up (Murphy, the old bastard). The fight is on and if one can not role with the punches because lack of training or general preparation it is too late to fix it. The fight will be lost. Throw in the towel kind of a situation. This is to be avoided at all cost. All variables have to be considered by the relevant specialists involved. If the product is supported in such a way and the carrot is large enough for all to see, then this unit will not be stopped. There is money to be made, jobs to be created, taxes to be paid and so forth.

I have no hands on experience at top level management and have only been subjected to those on a few occasions. I have been critical of some decisions and was right. I have supported others and was wrong. Now, at a more advanced age and with more experience I long for giving it a go. Letting my ideas go to waste is not an option, so I came up with this post. Some good has already been achieved but not much movement has been recorded.

If it would not be for the incredible rains we are experiencing at the moment I would have cut this reply short. We can't really get anywhere here at the moment and are lucky that we still have power, at least here. This situation gives me more time to reply, I have more time at hand. We could travel by dingy but I'll leave that to the younger ones. Each to their own abilities. Like in real life.

Let me finish with a recommendation. Have you heard of Doug Hirschhorn, Ph.D? He was introduced by Moose a few days ago. There is a good rapport going on between him and the CR4 community. I wonder what he would think of our attempts to getting things going. The Blog entry is "Meet Dr. Doug". Very interesting!

Please be reminded that I am not a professional writer and a round table discussion would leave fewer misunderstandings. I'm the kind of guy who jumps up at meetings and paces around while talking. Speaking is a full body activity for me and when the adrenaline flows I have to get up.

Writing is not a very good way to communicate for me but I will give it a go. I hope it gets us somewhere.

Thanks for your time, Ky.

Top of Form

Bottom of Form

1. Small group of smart guys forms company to produce great new product.

2. Venture capitalists "help" company to grow and become successful.

3. Venture capitalists gain control. Original smart guys are fired.

4. Great product eventually becomes obsolescent. Inventive types have been fired.

5. Company is circling the drain, is sold off or goes out of business.

That seems like a lousy business model, but a fairly common one. What's a better way?

1. You are born into a large nuclear family, with large property holdings, and a pool of capital to invest in family projects. Most things run by consensus/debate, but there is one primary director/decision maker as head of the family. The family does not go into debt, ever. You are supported by the family operation.

2. You work in the family business for all your younger years, learning all that can be taught to you, and all that you can learn within your schooling system, and family lore.

3. As you grow in knowledge and skill, you are relied on more and more to take responsibility for operations. You understand the importance and balance of business decisions.You also understand the system, and act as trainer for the younger people in the family.

4. You promote investment in a particular business operation, based on your knowledge and experience, and work hard to ensure that it pays. Repeat as necessary. You may hire external personnel (seasonal) to meet labour requirements.

5. Eventually, you become the primary decision maker. It is your responsibility to retain existing wealth, and continue the growth of the family operations and success. As the controller of the capital pool, you invest in home grown business ideas, that you think have validity, based on the combined knowledge and skill set of family members.

6. Private capital formation is a great solution to today's current economic woes, but was a chief target listed during the formation of the Federal Reserve System in 1913. (see The Creature From Jekyll Island. Ed Griffin) The fiat currency system accelerated the deterioration of private capital formation by making available cheaper money, and also by promoting factory work in cities, which has all but annihilated the nuclear family system. It was a system that worked, but never had a chance to try its hand in the modern era.

1. You are born in a Pacific Rim country in the 50's

2. Your government needs to create national wealth.

3. They decide on a multi pronged approach

4. They invest and develop raw natural resources to make materials available

5. They will provide free education and free University education to any citizen who is willing to make the commitment.

6. If any citizen, having graduated from University, has an entrepreneurial business idea, and that idea stands scrutiny, then the Government invests commitedly in the development of that idea, to a complete satisfactory self-sustaining operational level. think electronics, autos, etec.

7. The government will do what it can to promote and develop international trade, and limit the impact of foreign policies and actions on these businesses. Initiatives to improve quality of the products are supported at the highest levels, and fostered by gov't.

8. you take over the world market with your high quality, affordable products. next generation products are always being developed by the same processes.

9. Government has succeeded by developing huge national wealth and jobs in their country, and retaining it. ( I forget the name of the book I read this all in.)

I like this one. I would apply it to Transcendia, if Transcendia was to become a Real Nation, instead of the Model Country, it currently is. You mentioned in an earlier post User Groups, which I do not fully understand. May have participated in one, but don't really fully understand how and who it benefits all around. Remember somehow the Sustainable Energy Blog came about due to discussions and question from Hari PV, whereby I know Gwen and Garthh. Company Country Work of Art, is more and more a model. The fact that Canadians get Healthcare from their government instead of individually from the companies they work for, as similar in the Netherlands would seem to allow for more freedom of movement from one job to another.

1. You develop a small business whose products eventually will be required by the military, from buttons to bombs.

2. eventually, your business product line contracts with the government, or is controlled by the gov't(other countries), who need that production to acheive its national/military goals.

3. Depending on the country, you receive much of/ All the funding material, tools, and cheap labour you will ever need to produce those products, or to develop new ones.

4. you are able to produce millions and millions of your products, and collect the wealth.

5. Governments (politicians) around the world realize that military is great business, and continue to have wars, provided you support them, and give them golden retirement packages.

This one is UNICOR/Federal Bureau of Prisons.

I know too much and way more than anyone would care to learn about on this subject

Good to see you on the case Robert. As you well know taking off the physical shackles is only the beginning. The only thing I can do at the moment is to encourage your studies and I don't want you to think I'm just some smart ass, I mean it from the bottom of my heart.

Keep it coming and then a bit and then the extra mile. Good luck, Ky.

1. You are born in the 50's in north america.

2. You are disillusioned with your life.

3. As a teenager, you start experimenting with drugs... drop out of college after a year or 2

4. You begin to understand that there is money to be made in the new Cocaine product line.

5. you gather together as much money from your pot/hash operations as possible.. make a trip to colombia, and secure a business channel with a cocaine provider, and design shipment methods.

6. You sell some of the product, and profits are so high, and demand is so high, that you have more than enough money to support further business growth.

7. You melt your brain down consuming your own product.

8. You get busted, go to jail, and get a new boyfriend..imagine that your family comes to visit.

1. you are a smart young college graduate in the middle 90's, with prosperous parents (nuclear family)

2. you have a great idea to use the internet to sell (books)

3. you get investment from your parents, and start a new operation, and invest in web based software development to support online sales.

4. you start developing warehousing/shipping business to support the sales program

5. you are a positive, enthusiastic, people person, and develop a lot of employee loyalty through your charisma, infusing your organization with it, and thus developing continuous improvement.

6. you invest in the good ideas of your employees, and foster continuous improvement.

7. you become massively wealthy, through the application of insight, sound business practices, integrity, and people skills.

1. you are young, insightful, and learn computer programming at your local facilities. at a time when computers are giant, and hugely expensive.

2. you develop a variety of software applications, and share them with others.

3. you are asked by another company to develop a certain crucial software, to accompany a hardware product, that makes gives it a command interface. you have all the tools and products you need to produce your product.

4. you see that your product is universally applicable to these hardware products, and you actively promote their integration into future hardware product lines. you position yourself as sole provider of operating systems,

5. you land the big contract.. the money rolls in. You continue to refine and improve your products, and expand your product line to provide supporting applications. (programming languages, tools, calculators, text editors, databases, etc.)

6. you continue ad nauseum to grow and prosper, always increasing your product line, until you are a world dominating entity, with billions in sales. You fight every contender, and strive for dominance in the marketplace. you have used the brilliance of thousands of people to attain your market position.

7. you retire as the wealthiest man on the planet.. forever.

Hi Chris

History repeats itself on all levels and in much of the same way. To enter or leave a cycle at the right time with the right people is our choice. We can make it or brake it, whatever we do.

To be able to recognize a cycle for what it is, is possibly the hardest part of all. My eyes and ears are right open. Thanks for the both uplifting and depressing posts. Keep coming Mate! Ky.

Hey Ky, I understand the needed and understood method of approach with the check chart. I didn't quite mean what you referred to related to "the cart before the horse" although I admit to some small degree. To me, and you didn't touch on this, the question to ask yourself about the invention is what is it's marketability, what are the realistic approaches to entering the market, usability through its diversity, then the production capabilities, costs etc. Specialized products, toys, bikes, books or a book, even certain software, have a narrow market place, large competition base, etc. Infiltration in a certain market place will usually take massive amounts of money unless one goes with gorilla tactics to get the product out by personal marketing. Which can be successful on many levels.

Bottom line again, and I'm not deliberately getting into massive detail here, is that:

1. How large an upgrade to the existing idea or related concept is the new idea.

2. How well does it provide that better quality of life or how well does it solve a problem.

3. How many users will it have on a local, national, or global level.

4. How significant are those changes does it provide at what cost to develop and produce.

5. How can it be promoted, sold, or brought forth into it's particular market(s) at what costs and who other will provide the capital to do that.

6. What is the devices overall timing in bringing it to a market. What economic conditions exists, social, technical conditions exists that will allow the influence of the devices acceptance regardless of it's benefits.

The list is much much longer but you get the idea.

If those and many more questions related can be answered with some amount of confidence and realism related to the idea, that would be the horse.

Grant it, the above would be part of the "business plan" but, often it must be the catalyst to a realistic approach to continuing the initiation of the invention or idea.

"What need does it fill and how well does it fill it to how many consumers/users!" Says a line from Ogilvy and Mather. One of the largest (in the day) advertising firms associated with getting Guinness Beer out among the world.

As techs that "stuff" often is ignored or conveniently forgotten about even though we're quite aware of it's importance.. We more find the importance in how well we design it, make it work, etc. Truly, that IS where I have the most fun. Your check list is necessary and is done well from both you and Chris. The above (to be better organized) needs to be added to said lists.

It's good to see one taking the time to continue a push as you are. That gumption is needed in order to get through the tough spots and not "through in the towel" as you say. I find, initially, that you may be a "cut above" in that area and a worthy potential associate in relation to this discussion topic.

Seems to me finding the right idea/invention venture that has all the right elements would be as you've already discussed in the original post, the next step with determining who is willing to take a run at it with what amount of time and expertise he or she is willing to make for it. Having some means to a financial gain is still a human necessary evil or motivation, depends on how you want to look at it, and a requirement to the success of the posts ideology.

naturalextraction

To me, and you didn't touch on this, the question to ask yourself about the invention is what is it's marketability, what are the realistic approaches to entering the market, usability through its diversity, then the production capabilities, costs etc.

If you are interested in some more details I could send you my Business plan via CR4 mailbox. It contains all required information but does not include any technical details.I see in your biography that this one could be just down your alley. No strings attached!

Let me know, Ky.

There is an alternative way which happens on large scale too:

1. Small group of smart guys forms company to produce great new product.

2. Venture capitalists try to "help" company to grow and become successful.

3. Venture capitalists have it difficult to gain control. (Original smart guys got supported by decent economic specialists who have foreseen the big takeover.)

4. The company needs to show results even when the product is not finished and rendable yet. Venture capitalists are given more playground at the borders.

5. The borders create a scandal which blows up the, well orchestrated but originally with good intentions set up, balloon.

6. Original smart guys are thrown in jail, company is dismantled and the patents are sold to the first bidder. (for way less than the real value, but hey, the inventor is in jail now)

7. The venture capitalists have what they wanted, your technology, without you, for way less money than you asked initially.

This happens way to often, (Lernhout and Hauspie as the best known example)

So what makes an airplane fly? exactly: money.

One advice for the starting inventor: do you have a good idea? Sell is as soon as someone is interested, if he wants help working it out? become a part of his company as a normal employe (so you get paid by real money every month, not with value papers which can be turned into useless toilet paper by a simple action of the company owner)

So far my idea's on commercialising good ideas.

But after all a good thread.

I'm struggling with a development of a Stirling Engine, designed to convert solar heat into electricity but capable to be the center of a range of apparatusses like micro CHP systems and car power generation. We are in a stage where money needs to become available. Money to start building prototypes, funding measurement devices and have people paid for the time the invest as it can't be done anymore as an evening and weekend activity. So here we are now: a nice marketing idea, the product ripened in our heads, some of it already worked out. Suppliers and techniques are seleceted and the product is feasable. Then shit hitted the fan: banks tubled down their imaginary mountain of thrust and stability. Money evaporated and we are just lucky that we still hav eour daytime job.

But, being an experienced developper, inventions are not what drives a product. It is the idea of an service an experience which can be sold which drives the whole marketing. Inventions are just what makes your solution unique. Developpers take the experience wanted and turn it into a product, if inventions are needed to accomplisch the task they will deliver them.

Here the idea of the blog gets stuck: you mix up the experience with an invention.

Hi Garthh:

One of the ways people get paid is by your enabling them to stay in their comfort zones,

I well remember when I explained to the manager responsible for a particular production process how, for well under $200,000 they could increase profits by over $2,000,000 a year.

The response was:"Seems like too much mucking around". He did not want to leave the comfort zone of the status quo, even when risks were low and testable.

Unfortunately, I have found this type of response all too often among management.

A somewhat related experience I've had is going to the boss to say demnd for our product will increase, and we have to hurry to scale up our production equipment to meet the demand. (We were a leader in the business of coating things with diamondlike coatings, laser windows and such) He was reluctant to spend money, even though we could expand at relatively low cost. The result was that others met the demand, and got the brand recognition, and our market share slipped toward zero. The boss in question had started the business from scratch, diversified, made lots of money, and lost his nerve for risk-taking.

Hi Gwen

What you are describing here is exactly what happened to me in 1996 after 11 years of on and off privately funded R+D. It is to the point and with i's dotted and t's crossed. By the time I smelt the rat it was to late. I did not end up in jail but lost every thing and went into exile, namely to this Island.

I turned full time artist and swore that I would never ever try again to do what I am doing now. Wounds heal and scars can be hidden. With what you are saying in mind, I still think that VC's can be of help if they are reasonable and an active part of any company structure to be formed. Even if their activity is "only" to broker deals. Their own deals they will always be. I love to watch a good and fair boxing fight but to get in the ring myself is out of the Question.

I know that they (VC's) can breath very thin air, were most of us would faint, but I have hope. Thanks for bursting the bubble but a new one has just appeared. Time will tell and I hope I am not wasting mine or anyone else's.

Fighting wind mills? Me? Probably yes! Hope all works out though, Ky.

Fighting windmills?

Are you nuts.

Where exactly are these magnetic islands?

Mother nature is not so kind for you all down there.

I have had my portion of social disaster too: I was in the team which made the DVD recorder happen at Philips, and as soon as the unit was launched the factory was closed down. 2500 persons worked there when I joined, 3 years later the site was empty. Quite a strange feeling when you have to dim the light in your hall.

Since then I knew that you need to be sure to be paid for whet you do and leave the rest up to those who have the power to sales succes.

Hi Gwen

Don Quixote is a historical figure and he was a bit nuts too. His companion is partly to blame but who is counting.

As far as I know there is only one Magnetic Island. Try Google for more information.

Getting into bed with the big boys requires you to have a pimp. Colorful language but it hits the nail on the head. He takes care of the monies to be paid and you provide the service. This whole thing is nothing else than a prostitution racket, legalized and covered by the lawyers and the "Law" of the land.

Inventors will never be respected, what ever we try. Only the very stubborn ones could have a chance and the ones that have thought of every possibility. That does not leave many but through our communications here we can at least try and do what we have to and give support were it is needed. Being able to take advice is not easy either.

'Mother nature is not so kind for you all down there.'

Yes it is hitting us hard at the moment. Us, up in the north, are drowning and in the south they are going up in flames. Aussies are a tough bunch and we stick together and come out stronger on the other side. It has been done before. Just like in any other country really!

I wish inventors would do the same. I am calling for the fire brigade with this original thread, I know. Maybe I should have asked for some sand bags instead!

It is all so unpredictable but one has to be prepared as good as one can. Once you start climbing a mountain you don't just give up and go back to base camp. You go all the way and take your life in your very own hands. I will rather try to climb "my mountain" and make sure that the smaller ones in the past have given me sufficient training.

Hope I have enough rope!!

Thanks for your insights, Ky.

As I understand it, Cisco is an excellent illustration of what you are saying.

Dear Ky, If you reject the suggestions and insights of Garthh and Gwen you are rejecting experienced and level headed advisors. Both Garthh and Gwen have been working and putting their necks out, as well as getting their hands dirty. Both have been set back. Put profitable in the line along with practical, productive and proactive, and see if you can plug it into the right socket. Great opening paragraph, by the way. I do trust Chris L and Moose along with Garthh and Gwen and some others, like Del. To go or to squash is suggested. Chris yanked one of my threads. Possibly under advisement, stalled for reorder is a category for administrators when this sort of discussion comes up. I've had setbacks, which mean I may have to let the cell phone go. Dialup was cheaper than broadband. Got Macs. They demanded more pay for access. Income down, rent up. Both cars in shop. Hands hurt. If I go "Dark" why? No money probably.

Hi Trans

Your club membership renewal fees are due!

Taking advice on board is or can be an intense experience. If Hillary would not had his Sherpa Tenzing Norgay with him he would have never made it to the top of the world. Local knowledge is paramount. If I remember correctly coming down was the hardest part of his journey.

Why climb a mountain in the first place? Because it is there! In later years this man gave back so much in return and maybe because he did the climb he was able to over come all obstacles.

Were is my Sherpa? I have the mountain!

Depression sucks. Big time!

All the best from here, Ky.

OKAY THATS ENOUGH!

no more depression talk. You are a light unto the world, not a blacklight, but a veritable beam of bright light.

maybe the one thing that will make you happy is knowing that some people will just plain give away some of their best ideas to the world, so that we can eventually evolve out of this 'profiteering' madness.

Chris

Hi Chris

Very interesting link you have supplied there. Must have missed it that day. Big plans like yours and many others will shape our future. The sooner the better. It will take as much energy to build it as it will take energy to replace the decision makers, who are still the same as they were in the last century.

Good luck to us all and follow that light. You are so right.

All the best, Ky.

...so that we can eventually evolve out of this 'profiteering' madness.

Hi Chris, I've struggled with the basis of that thinking for years. I mentioned before that I've been self employed since 16. I did it partly for the "carrot" of earning real money but primarily for having the ability to diversify my often crippling interests (in more ways than one) or my expanding sense for wanting to learn more.

One thing you learn real fast about getting bringing good or great ideas to fruition, as others have mentioned here and in your link, is money. For me motivation was getting to see an idea become a reality. That means more than money to me and when you look at it that way, money/capital and the raising there of will just be part of the equation in the overall plan of execution.

Obviously for many whether it's a pay check or a ROI, money is a stronger motivation and is part of the equation that can not be taken lightly. It's all part of the individual psychology on an individual basis that one must be adaptable in negotiating on those levels.

I've noticed here on CR4 a correlation to those throughout my life who were; creatively smart, insightful, perhaps charismatic, enlightening optimistic, pleasant maybe even delightfully quarky people who often were giving to many. But ultimately these types all had financial struggles or could not harness "it" to bring that part together. Those who can finance these great ideas are the one's who do not share this type of motivation and typically may seemingly not be selfish or carry self interest but ultimately do. Their life is about money regardless. Usually not all to giving, tight fisted, fear and controlling issues etc. I have found few money motivated people who have a better balance and those make good partners as they can really work on raising capital for great ideas. Their motivation is both self interest for profit yet a decent balance of ego and motivation for what the idea or invention ultimately does for the population at hand.

I've place an emphasis on marketing in this thread, what problems does the invention solve and ultimately does it have market appeal to the point a venture capitalist or private investor can envision a real return after all the expenses and potential losses. Seeing how those responded to your idea and that you've placed it in public domain for the discussion (via your link) is a good indication or example to how good minds could and will make an idea work. But the flame goes out when there is no reward, be it monetary or to see the idea come to fruition.

As also was discussed building a working prototype as in-expensively as possible and utilizing materials donated or scavenged. Not to mention help that is bartered or donated. If people like your idea they will participate if it is for the greater good, so to speak. There are many "gorilla" methods to get prototypes built. I encourage those with limited funds to consider all options, dedicate even a couple hours (if that is even possible) a day toward your worthy ideas. Good balanced (regarding what I mentioned above) investors who could get excited about a good idea are motivated much more by those working prototypes. Amazingly they're not so much thrown off by aesthetics, although that does help. Even on very small scaling helps. Getting the word out there about your idea(s) only works when MANY people or potential investors know about it. It's about the odds and volume if you will. I'm convinced from my experience any real valid idea will get support if you get it out there.

I wish I was a little more fluid in my thinking for this comment but I'm pretty tired but I wanted to make the observations. Bottom line I'm trying to be encouraging. Boy, I gotta hit the sack man.

Be diligent in your pursuits!

I like #'s

1,3& 10

& I'd like to hear more about 5 & 6

the check list is a good start

There is lots of truth in what you are saying in #83

it all depends on the perspective!

I was just offering up a different perspective

non-disclousures & patents aren't worth the electrons it take to put them on the screen, unless you have enough money to defend em & i'm talking a 1/2 a million or more.

should anyone be in the vicinity of Kuala Lumpur from Feb 19th to the 21st, 2009.. there is an invention awards show occuring.

Chris

Hi Chris

The closing date was 15 Jan. but it is good to see that you are on the ball. Anything can help and some times it could be right in front of our eyes and we don't recognize it as the missing link.

What has accumulated so far is more than I expected and surely will help any of us get or keep going. I wish I had more time and less struggle but that comes with the territory I suppose.

Thanks again, Ky.

I think that there should be a whole section, or even new site dedicated to invention and discovery.. call it CR8 (create)

So then, how do we vote for the best invention to be pursued by us if we need confidentiality? In what case has CR4 of another sort and similar group done this? Chrisg288 suggested the User Group. Garthh and Gwen and I have been there and done that. No money. It was all right as long as I had a day job and some money coming in to run the house and buy some flowers for my wife. The Chisg288 pictures and his location make me wonder if the transport would work between Toronto and Niagra, or Toronto and Rochester? The Great Lakes of North America are a bit more suited to such transport , than the Oceans. -at least from what I know now. (The Ferry between Toronto and Rochester failed a few years ago.) For propulsion I do wonder if the best way to go is to put sails on the tube that use both wind like a sailing ship, and are impregnated with PV solar to run the electric capacitor pulse water jets and pull the things along in the water? Chrisg288 has made some great pictures of something that looks intended for passenger people transport. People need and like to move fast. It may well be however that his designs are better for moving freight. Reverse the design of the double hull submarine so that it carries squared containers of standard sizes between port cities on great lakes, and get the power to move it all from sails that give both electrical power, and regular wind power, and we might have a winner. As far as the cardboard toaster, I see it as a terrific thing for a Boy Scout to build for his mother. I do suspect it would have to have some UL tests and warnings, since the number one cause of house fires is faulty electrics. (You are supposed to empty your toaster of crumbs now and then to prevent fires inside the toaster.) In all, I have to recommend we be Cheery. Second we need to discover what sort of User Group has succeeded Ideologically, Monetarily, and Spiritually. Third we need to discover that if there has not been a case so far where people like us have met on the train and attempted to do such a gestalt, what changes to the site would cause such a thing to become possible. I also want CR4 and Global Spec to make money so they can support CR4. Truly it is what I wanted from Shortwave Radio, but never got. P.S. when I wrote this I had indents and line breaks. I don't know yet why my writings show up on the site in one block of sentences. I appreciate it that my readers put up with it.

Dear Transcendian,

1) start small, so success is more assured.

2) plan, then act, so we don't have to be perfect, but the plans and actions can improve with each iteration. It doesn't matter where we start, but where we end up.

3) I think the freight train would be a great idea for the great lakes, especially as the train can be broken up to be taken through the locks at the Erie canal, (or any canal) In fact, a lot of ships, including war ships are limited in beam so they can pass through the Panama canal. (103' I tink)

4) I totally agree with green technologies being applied to the train. I didn't put any on, as I thought that might sway others inputs too much, and I wanted to see what you all had to say might work.

5) I started out thinking the train would be submersible, as that would be sooo cool, however, I rendered on the surface, and suggested it would be first done as a surface ship, as that would be a simpler place to start, with any new technology, simpler is better.

6) as far as solar toasters, don't forget that we are supposed to be in the greatest depression since the thirties, so in my mind, mass production of life supporting, but simple technology is a winner. The basics (air, water purification, food, heat, clothing, shelter, transportation, communication, energy, and education) are the way for people to survive and grow again. We also need to understand that this credit and recession crap is artificial to begin with. It is the reaction of the people in cutting back their business that makes it real. The money issues that got it going were all fake.. electronic spectres.

7) successful collaborations can work, but more often it takes a strong leader or chairperson to keep things moving. I think we should ask what kind of leadership or decision making model we want.

GA.