Select Your Favourite Invention

Another factor is the fact that the ground is cooled by radiation at night, so the coldest air is near the ground, what's known as an inversion layer. This stable layer reduces the friction (actually the mixing) with the warmer air above it, so the winds at tower level pick up. Regarding citrus groves, the wind machines increase the mixing, so the warmer air mixes with the cold air near the ground, saving the fruit from freezing. In the old days, they used smudge pots or burning tires to make a layer of smoke which kept the grouind from radiating so much heat (the "greenhouse effect"). The EPA does not approve of that.

Air conditioners are a big problem: they consume a massive amount of energy when the sun is working hard and winds are low.

To cope with their demand the owners should have PV cells, as they will deliver the energy when the airco wants it. This will balance out the grid.

So new style of politics: when you want to have AC: imposed to have at least the same peak load of PV installed on you're premise.

Action to boost economy: all AC systems with power above 2.5KW must be equipped before summer or they will be taken out of service. By next summer all the rest.

Distant wind turbines are nice but a pain in the ass for the grid owner: but nukes are even worse as you can't reduce the power delivered on the fly. Strangely it has been no problem for political decision makers to install those storage lakes all over the world to solve the demand problem of the nuclear power stations. Now that we would need more of these to cope with wind turbines it is impossible to organise it.

My favorite wind turbines are the vertical axis models.

Image is taken from: http://www.quietrevolution.co.uk/qr5.htm

They generate way less sound and require less maintenance.

I agree with your windmill comments - VAWTs are IN!! Simpler, more weather resistant than other designs.....though I have yet to build my first one!!

You don't have too explain me what flatland is.

What you explain is your particular situation which is not viable for the rest of the world. Some other regions in Australia rarely see clouds. So you could install PV cells in that region. On every roof.

But somehow alternative enery harvesting is easily stopped due to single potential problems.

PV cells will even give power on a cloudy day, you would be surpised on the amount of light still available on such cloudy day's. You will only need more panels. Or be inventive and store the cold that you can generate when the sun shines.

And insulate to prevent the heat of entering the house.

The same problems arise with high rise buildings: they have limited access to wind and sun (they think, an exercise out of the box would prove different)

Hi Gwen.Stouthuysen:

I agree with you.

The point I meant to make was that a mandated "one size fits everything" approach is not going to work.

We need to find a way to make it worthwhile for people to take measures to sustainability generate for their own high level and of use.

The best method I can think of is for a major cost reduction in solar cells and/or wind generators together with incentives to use them.

Your point about power being available at a reduced rate on cloudy days is correct.

I'm not sure how badly it reduces solar cell output, but my solar hot water heater functions surprisingly well even under the sustained cloudy conditions I mentioned in my earlier post.

I have lived in areas of Australia which, as you mentioned, have lots of sunny days. In one of these we used to go for a month or more without even seeing a cloud.

Concentrating solar collectors worked well there, but almost all air conditioning was done with evaporative coolers.

I have often thought that in such regions it would be comparatively easy to use a concentrating collector to drive an absorption type refrigeration unit, providing refrigeration and air conditioning where the humidity of evaporative units wasn't acceptable.

It would also be possible to use such a unit to power a steam cycle system for power and hot water generation, probably cheaper than existing solar cells.

We need to encourage a broad range of alternative energy solutions.

They may not save the planet, but they can reduce our overall footprint, if enough people use them.

Of course more efficient use of energy and reductions in the need for it should also be encouraged (insulation, heat/cold storage, solar/energy effective designs etc)

A one size fits everything solution never works.

We are a country half the size of what can burn on one little day in Australia and even here we can't decide on action items which would fit the whole country.

In the "green" energy business it is important to distribute the efforts, work with as many techniques as feasibly possible and use the space available.

Governmental steering is important as no power company would decide on covering all roofs voluntary with PV panels, replacing all lighting poles with VAWT style windmills,....

It is much more easy and manageable to install a traditional coal fired plant and pay for the CO2 taxes. These costs will be transferred to the customers anyhow, so they don't pay for it.

These day's the big offshore power plants even don't reach the state of production as banks decided that they want governmental money for it. They simply hijacked the projects to get more money. 80% has been spend and now they will prove that it is thrown away money by not spending the last 20%.

"Until we lick the energy storage problem, all sustainable energy sources(solar, wind, tidal, wave etc) are going to be basically fringe players because of their erratic supply."

OK, I'll tell you again. Batteries are an uneconomical way to store energy, and you would have to be crazy, and very rich, to try for MWhrs storage in batteries. Wet compressed air (Process for transmitting and storing energy - Patent 5832728) is inexpensive and scales up nicely. I expect that, on a large scale, it would be both more efficient and and less expensive to build compared with pumped hydro, and it doesn't need hills.

Hi esbuck:

I wasn't limiting energy storage to batteries.

Your suggestion of compressed air raises the possibility of lining old mine shafts, to turn them into enormous pressure vessels enabling the storage of significant levels of power.

This shouldn't cause any problems with the greens and the surrounding rock provides portion of the strength needed in the pressure vessel.

If it was reclaimed by burning in a gas turbine with waste heat recovery, efficiency would be high because a huge amount of power in a gas turbine is consumed compressing the air. In this case it has already been done, so the recovery is highly efficient. (Of course, the overall efficiency is similar to a gas turbine, but as an energy storage device it could be very good)

Energy could, of course be directly recovered with a turbine anyway. The cold air generated as an exhaust, could be used by a power station to give a lower temp of heat rejection, further improving power station efficiency.

As I understand it, the 'greens' are opposed to pumped storage largely due to the displacement of indiginous life. I agree pumped storage is an excellent solution, and I believe it can be done in existing man made lakes, (before or after) plus offshore sites in lakes or oceans, as I mentioned in this other thread.

This can be especially productive if done in areas of high alternative energies such as wind, solar, tidal, wave, geothermal.

Also, as mentioned somewhere in that thread, there is the possibility of using the deep water pressure to desalinate. Imagine putting a filter in the base of the Hoover dam, and allowing the water pressure to push the water through. What comes out of an RO system would be very pure.

Chris

Hi Chris

Hope you don't mind that I played around with your designs.

I came up with this. In sufficient wind they could either have direct gearing to the propellers or run a generator to power any other choice of propel system. They could be directed into the wind at 360deg.

If no winds the propel system could be powered by using power stored in batteries or with conventional fuel.

The shape would have to be a bit more stream lined to have less drag. If using conventional fuel they could be folded forward into a space in the roof of the cabin. It was hard enough for me to put those turbines on the roof and it would only take you seconds to put a cavity were it belongs.Then only the tip of the turbine will stick out, again saving drag. The same would be done in dangerous winds, reducing surface area.

Before I drag on for to long....

Let me know what you think, Ky.

l

Hi Ky,

I am honored.. thank you.

I don't have those particular wind turbines in that application, but I do have the ones from the star destroyer, so just for fun, I will put those on the train.

However, on a more serious note, while I think the idea of omnidirectional turbines is good, I think that a VAWT is going to be more useful, and efficient. At the very least, it eliminates at least one set of gears, assuming it is a gear based system, and not converting to electricity.

I will post an image in just a little bit, to fuel our fantasies and we'll call it the Magnetic Island Sea Train (Mist)

Chris

Yeah, I could give it to the local News Paper as a hoax. They go for any thing. I'll pretend I'm some multimillionaire from Unobtainia and say I would like to donate it to the lovely people of the Island. Better not I suppose. Coming to think of it.....naaaa....

Talk to you soon, Ky.

Now what kid wouldn't want one of these hot rod train boat thingies!

Hey esbuck.. I agree there is lots of potential. I've got some sketches around here someplace I will see if I can scare them up of a thingy I thought of a few years ago while looking into this.. I think basically VAWT is what it was, on a cat hull. I did find a few references at the time on the net.. but that thing about the autogyro cone shape I think might work as well as a vawt type... cool

Chris

Hope this link works. Look at those computers back then. Jacques Cousteau was not only brilliant under water. Would I have loved to be on that team! I'll be on the next one, but don't be late.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5E0HDBM4xA

congratulation

works fine

was it dude free?

When ken posted this:-

http://cr4.globalspec.com/comment/49221/Re-Blowin-Across-the-Lake-Newsletter-Challenge-03-27-07

.......there was a good picture, where now there is just a little red cross

However here's one:-

and if you search google images for "wind turbine boat" you get loads.

aside.... Ken's original link was to an image called wb2.jpg : if you search for that on google you get over 40,000 hits which surprised me. Searching for something which turns out to be effectively random turns up all sorts of interesting stuff: I quite liked this:-

http://gallery.ghostie.us/main.php/main.php?g2_itemId=106

but then, I'm not an artist

Dear Ky, and other friends,

I'm glad you have your thinking cap on.. your input is needed with this new scheme... muuahahhaha

(okay I'm just being weird lol)

Chris

Hi Chris,

speaking of thinking caps Here's 1 of a seres of interesting threads Started by Masu

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/4565?frmtrk=cr4sd#comment354919

Enjoy!

Gwen.Stouthuysen your image and comments about vertical axis wind turbines was excellent; thanx. I'm working on a vertical axis toy sized mock up just now in my shop to be retrofitted onto the same shaft system as one that charges all my battery powered tools a night (drills, lawn mower, adult trike, etc.). What I like about these designs is that they are very quiet and they are not adversely affected by the turbulence found around buildings or low structures surrounded by trees, etc. They also tend to be low r.p.m and don't kill birds or people who blunder into them.

Gwen....

Umm, you're preaching to a saved choir here. I'm an old, high aspect ratio wing flyer from way back. Helped redesign and built and flew a Class I Extended Easy Riser Hang Glider for my big heavy frame; back in the days that it was all still new. The "stretch" Easy was all the rage and all but ended the construction of the original design because of the efficiencies of high and ever higher aspect ratio air foils. Because they are tailless, one had to never allow them to slow closer than 5 mph above stall except when landing; but they were otherwise astounding aircraft in their day. Paul B. MacCready in California builds solar powered high altitude "weather robotic" UAV's with incredibly high aspect ratio which are so efficient that at its optimized airspeed of 50 mph they only loose 12,000 feet during darkness before climbing back up to cruise at 65,000 to 70,000 feet during the balance of the daylight hours. Too bad that DARPA got hold of the purse strings and made his design go black. (Read: they put infrared and side looking radar devices on them and orbit them over the Middle East 6 months to a year at a crack.). What that single man understands about high aspect ratio airfoils humbles the rest of humanity in comparison, in my opinion.

preaching to a saved choir

That is the whole problem we have in our little engineering world: We know very well what is we can do to solve world hunger and establish world peace.

But somewhere we fail in addressing the decision makers.

It is like refusing to talk to terrorists, perhaps not bad to listen for 5 minutes to their problems and let them explain how they want to change the world. After this exercise they will also look different to the world.

I've been away from this thread for a while. While I'm going to post the below because my fav inventions are wind turbines I am also going to start a new thread about the below post because I have an improvement that a number of you who have been active here-in could sink your teeth into... especially the art work portions (your hear this Chris?).

The city of Addison, Texas is letting bids for a highly esthetically designed, wind powered water tower, among the first of its kind anywhere. They are angling for turbines on top of the tower. I think it would be better to incorporated angular vanes or high aspect ratio vertical airfoils turning, at low speed but with high torque, rotating around the outer circumfrance of the egg! A vertical turbine of course. In addition I'm in email correspondence with their pub works to encourage installing low volume water pump generators to recover some of the energy used to pump the water, also for their net grid powered lighting at night on low wind nights. Since this is an wind intensity zone 2 - I don't give it much hope for being a greater than cost operation - but scavenging SOME energy is better than just burning some coal to make more... When you look at the artwork below - you'll see where I'm going with this:

"Take a look at Addison's proposed new water tower!

Addison is on tap to become the first Texas municipality (and one of the few in the country) to build a self-powered water tower that doubles as a piece of art. Wind turbines on top of the tower will provide enough energy to run the tower as well as the street lights on Arapho Road. The proposal includes a classroom at the base of the tower where people can learn about wind generation and water distribution. A collaboration of the Town's Public Works and Parks Departments, Fort Worth engineering firm Freese and Nichols, and Dallas artist Brad Goldberg, the project is expected to go to bid later this year. Construction is scheduled to begin next spring. For more information on this exciting project,click here."

Hi Tinker65:

Interesting idea.

I'm afraid that when they crunch the numbers, they will probably find that the wind power available will be insufficient to consistently run their pumps, let alone power the street lights as well, but good luck to them. Any reduction of net energy use is worth considering, especially if it doesn't cost too much extra.

I agree that a VAWT would probably be the neatest solution here. It's hard to imagine a satisfactory HAWT in this situation.

When I can work out how to get some sketches onto this site, I'll post a rough sketch of a different HAWT I have fiddled with over the past 20 years or so. It has a rectangular section facing the wind instead of the circular one all other designs need.

This reduces a number of design compromises needed in turbine design (and introduces some new ones).

You can scan plain paper sketches & save as JPG, or take a picture of the sketches & load them into your computer, then click the camera icon & post. a brain storming session on dry erase...

Thanks Garthh

When it's not so late at night I'll give it a go.

Sparky did a great little tutorial on posting graphics:-

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/15743/How-to-insert-Graphics-into-your-Post-to-make-it-more-readable-or-interesting

If you want a good free 2D CAD package I recommend TurboCad LE:-

http://selectfreeware.com/node/269

You then need any free screen capture tool to grab the picture and save it as a .jpg

This is not the only thread where the fate of Sparky has been pondered...

Above is my attempt at showing a rectangular fan or turbine.

Blades are carried on a chain and must have interchangeable leading and trailing edges.

With some additional complication, it is possible to use a high efficiency type of aerofoil which changes when it goes to the return run (by boundary layer control), but this would only be warranted if it was used as a multi-stage compressor.

Main advantage is that the blade speed is constant throughout the length of the blade.

The necessity to use interchangeable leading/trailing edges limits aerofoils which can be used.

The obvious blades to use for a HAWT would be circular arc sheet metal, which should enable a quite large, but still cheap turbine to be built.

The required ducting makes it bulky (obviously what I have shown in this regard is notional only, bearing in mind my very limited drafting skills).

Thanks for the info on posting Garthh. I finally printed it out, scanned and then inserted.

I'll eventually learn to use the less cumbersome methods.

its a holiday and I had a few minutes.. so I hope you dont mind.. I gave it a try.. interesting design.. but I think there will be a lot of friction compared to hawts and vawts because you need 2 chains, 4 sprockets.. and possibly loose guiding... but you never know till you try.

this will help... its only a mockup.. so the chain thingy doesn't align

Chris, just one thing, when did Canada change from hours to minutes. You must be in a different time zone were time flies like minutes. To be able to come up with some thing like that in such a short time makes me want to lift my hat and I am not even wearing one.

Take it as a respectful gesture my friend, Ky.

I am currently working on a wind turbine invention of my own, (which I hope to present shortly), and Chris288 has been INSTRUMENTAL in developing the visuals. So here's to Chris!

SCEPTIC, something like your design has been done before, see the patents research section at the US pat. web site.

Hi spacecannon:

Thanks.

So basically a squirrel cage blower with a flexible [chain] cage?

Also some resembelance to a bucket conveyor.

How do the blades stay oriented?

Maybe a fancy chain with needle or roller bearings instead of plain bearings? at least a sealed [o-ring] chain.

Hi Garthh

So basically a squirrel cage blower with a flexible [chain] cage

In principle, yes.

Blades are held in alignment by the chain, as are the elements attached to a conveyor chain, except here the speed and alignment functions are more critical so the chain and guiding arrangements are more complex.

Because the blades have interchangeable leading and trailing edges, either end can function as leading edge of the blade. When the chain passes around the sprocket, the trailing edge remains pointing towards the inside of the advancing and retreating cascade of blades and now functions as a leading edge.

To use more advanced aerofoils the area above the chain (and below the lower chain) needs to be sealed so air can be blown in and directed from slots in the aerofoil to control the boundary layer and hence get an effective aerofoil.

Very high lift coefficients are possible this way, but unless the unit has a particularly heavy duty (eg as cascades in an axial compressor), the complication probably wouldn't be worth it.

So a guide 90⁰ to the air foil keeps the proper alignment, more sliding elements or two pins for each end of the airfoil, then you would have to account for change in distance as they go around the corner [sprockets]

The key would be getting rid of as many of the plain bearings [sliders] as possible.. maybe even some ball bearing thrust bearings between the side plates of the chains, not sure how to balance simplicity, efficiency sanitation...

The duct would seem to increase the efficiency. less noise than standard rotary [props]

What about speed regulation? or would there be flaps or apertures on the duct?

Wouldn't duct shape, increase air speed too

don't mind me just pondering out loud

Hi Garthh

Love the pondering, please keep going.

Agree that friction minimization will be the key.

If variable vanes are inserted ahead of the turbine/fan, they can give a pre-whirl to improve the match with wind speed.

When speed rises too high, vanes close steadily reducing the thrust and keeping speed constant at the max allowable.

This would enable it to keep generating during a cyclone, which other wind turbines can't do. They are all locked up with a brake and/or feathered.

Of course conditions like those shown may be a little challenging! (Cyclone Larry)

Hi Garthh

I have not been very forthcoming with my responses to your input and just want to make sure that I am not ignoring your considerable input. Besides working on a huge project (in my understanding/evaluation) I have to tend to family matters which beat any of mine or others technical difficulties.

I have been a bit slack in responding to matters at/on/in hand but please don't think I am not reading and appreciating your generous input. Only time will tell how far we can push matters but in general I am so happy that this thread has not gone the way others have done in the past. We are only human and are burdened with side issues that can take ones concentration and focus on what really matters and that is developing a circle of like minded people to get what ever is going on to succeed and encouraging others to do the same.

If we can't keep our priorities right, never mind with what or were or when, we are doomed to failure, because others will be, and they will point out these short comings never mind if they right or wrong. Keeping up standard procedures (as we do) will and has been of importance to the consumer of the products or ideas we bring forward. The average punter sets the benchmark, the only true evaluator of any invention/concept/idea. We shall work it out for them and credit to us for supplying the solutions of/for the future. Instant rewards with out the daily suffering/struggle would make any future achievements less valuable.

Most people don't care but want results at an affordable price and a button to switch on or off. It is a bit like modern "Music" (note the "0") and I am trying as hard as I can to discredit the culprits of such abnormalities of treating any or my ears with such useless crap. Evolution, survival of the fittest, will prevail not some scam that brings and takes $$ from some uneducated minds in a faulty minded artificial market place.

Just had to get this off my chest and I am sure some readers will not agree but do I look like I really care?

My Grandson Kyran thinks I am the best thing since the coming of sliced bread. In him there is future, in me, there is what is left of vision and I do need magnifying glasses at times.

See what happens, Ky.

I've been a bit busy myself, basicaly got booted by my partners, cause I have the audacity to want to get paid, so my house won't get repossesed

I think some of what you're talking about is from the various HHO threads, I have yet to see any data...

I love to imagine what's possible, with off the shelf [obtainium] stuff.

back to sceptics brain storm

There's probably a ratio between the length of the airfoil cross section & the distance between the airfoils? & of course the shape of the incoming duct would be important. I'm sure there's some friction in the media [air] that would limit the number of layers per duct?

Could there be 2 chains per side sort of one inside the other? you could use this to vary the pitch, not sure how to keep them running at the same speed since the sprockets would be a different size & the chains a different number of links? You could have 2 chains side by side, but the linkage required would get dirty [also another major issue].

I wonder if anyone used such an arrangement in water?

I just pondering if we are trying to reinvent a square wheel?

The above is an example of how my mind works, I just sort of make almost a mini truth table of ideas & sort through em, usually there would be some food, drink & all of us in the same room... I need to take my own advice & make a crude drawing, But I gotta work for a while, finding addresses for the census..

I think you are just trying to torment me!

Actually, I suspect the duct needs to be shortened as much as is possible, consistent with structural requirements, because the sheer mass of material adds considerably to cost.

I do like adding pre-whirl vanes to it though.

As far as variable pitch by use of double chains, I did work out a system using 2 equal size sprockets offset axially to each other. If done correctly, the mechanism could be set up so it didn't foul.

By braking one sprocket briefly, the pitch could be varied.

This could be useful when used as a fan, but with a wind turbine the change in axial velocity leads to a change in whirl velocity and the required angle of attack stays close to being the same.

Once wind speeds rise high enough that you need to start limiting chain speed, this relationship no longer holds, but by then efficiency is of no concern, you are getting more input power than you can use anyway.

thank you my friend... solidworks makes light work of that one.. okay, so it was maybe 1 hour..

but the real truth is, as you know, I'm lazy..and if I wasn't I'd be working on those projects that I should be working on...lol. tomorrow...

"Hi my name is Chris.. and I'm an addict... I'm an addict of CR4!"

Chris.

Take it a minute at a time Chris. The joy lasts longer that way.

I will be preparing an add for the Inventors Corner over the next days so that more of us can get feedback on what we are doing.

Please all, be reminded that if you put out details of your inventions you will not be able to receive a patent on your idea because your are creating a prior knowledge situation. Keep it as simple as possible so not to give away all and save your self some disappointment in the future.

We are on the right track but running, before being able to walk, will cause bruising!

Good Luck, Ky.

Thanks Chris. That is unbelievable!

Exactly what I could see in my mind but am incapable of drawing (I am severely handicapped in that way)

With your presentation drawings, you could sell anything!

Regards

if you pm me your email address, I can send you a 3d e-drawing so you can zoom, pan, and rotate the model.. and I can make the changes you want.. if you are going to progress it.

Chris

G'day sceptic

This is so good to see and proves that an inventors corner is not only needed but essential for many of us who are pondering on their own and are in need of critical input. Isn't it encouraging to find people like Chris who volunteers and helps to put some "meat" around a concept so that even I can pick up on it and understand the problematic of such a device.

Now that two leaves are on this plant more will ad them selves to the base. Like in a plant, if it is fertilized and pruned at the right time it will bear fruit. Never mind the out come of this, it is so good to see cooperation and not $ signs and greed to appear first.

Even if your idea is shredded to bits the result will give you peace of mind and you know that friends care and not just nod their heads and want to get away and leave one alone with the challenges ahead.

When I first started this thread some time back this is what I envisaged. Critical analysis by peers giving clear indication of stop or go. Getting more out of a system than one puts in and pulling at a string with combined efforts.

Thank you for your input Chris. I think you made sceptic's day. Imagine his joy of being reflected upon and my joy just witnessing this little step in the right direction.

What a great way to start the day, Ky.

In agreement.

Why not keep it simpler: What about a VAWT with aerofoils fixed rigidly in a rotating framework which looks like this from the top:-

If the wind is coming from the front (down here) the right hand "wing" should catch more of the wind than the left hand one (like an anemometer). The main driving force would come from the two aerofoils front and back. Although this seems slightly counterintuitive perhaps it would be better this way round as you get more force (and therefore leverage) at the trailing edge of wings:-

Or maybe this:-

Or this:-

Or maybe this would work better, spilling air from the trailing edge of the front aerofoil into the "cup" of the leading one:-

That's probably quite similar to a Savonius, although I don't think I've ever seen one like this.

well.. this is not a ducted idea... and I'm not sure if my image will explain it properly.. but it is a new invention... if you have heard of such a thing before..let me know.

it originally started as a kind of inverted paddlewheel idea for the side of a house...

and in order to make it work, you have to stagger the wheels... basically the lowever half if the wheel is enclosed (insided the pointed box), and the upper half moves in the wind, with as much resistance to the wind as possible.. I'm sure it is kind of half-baked.. but I also think it would at least move if unloaded.. not sure how it would actually perform as a loaded system. the green arrows indicate wind direction.

I've got 75 images as bmp.. but haven't figured out yet how to make them into an animated gif that I can put on here.

I had to experiment to get the right wheel size versus the wheel spacing and length of connecting board. (for lack of a better word).. and the angled verticals on each board are just to catch the wind.

the direction of rotation is clockwise. the image shown has ax. 12 foot wheels. the boards stay parallel to each other and to the ground. it might be easier to just use gravity like a ferris wheel, but what the heck. I hope the function is obvious... but if you have any questions, I'll do my best to answer them. if you want to see larger images, send your email to me in a pm.

Chris

Basically, you have shrouded the bottom (return) half so it doesn't fight against the driven half.

The old paddle wheelers had a feathering mechanism in the more sophisticated drives, which could be adapted here so you didn't need the expense of the shroud in the lower half.

Another possibility is to use half cylinders instead of boards in the top half so as to capture as much drive as possible from the wind in the driven section.

This isn't quite like a Savonius, where the exhaust air from the driven side is diverted into the other side to provide a bit more drive.

More like a cup wheel anemometer only using half cylinder in place of the cup.

The idea has potential.

The shrouded lower half could be used between buildings where the buildings form a duct to direct flow into the turbine and shield the non driven side.

Another version was used between 2 buildings in Abu Dhabi a year or two ago. It used conventional HAWT between the skyscrapers and, from memory, provide up to 30% of the building load.

excellent reply.. just what I needed,

thank you..

Chris

Just for reference, the site www.mfg.com uses digital signing of NDA documents online to allow subscribed users access to bid documents. This is one of the enabling technologies for an inventors oriented site to function properly. (The other would be an investors comparative analysis and investment system)

The site is a contracting site that puts buyers and vendors together for all manner of engineering and production services. Unfortunately the site is expensive to subscribe to. (ax. 3k$ to start)

The site has Jeff Bezos of Amazon fame as a partner. It is one of the largest sites of its kind on the net. The site not only presents internal customers, they also guarantee very high search engine ratings for your business if you subscribe.

Chris

Very interesting Chris.

I will dig a bit deeper later this afternoon. Talk soon, Ky.

Ky,

I have an idea that might be a candidate for development. Riveting is the method used to bond aluminum sheets and structures together to make strong durable bodies for aircraft. As I understand it, this process is labour intensive. I have an idea that, if viable, may offer an alternative to that process, and decrease the labour and construction time of joints so made.

The basic ideas is to use thermite powder with is embedded in double sided tape. The tape is applied between the two sheets of aluminum, and clamped tightly together. The volatile thermite is then ignited, and the small yet hot process fuses the two metals together. After cooling, the clamps are released. Clearly the thermite quantity would be adjusted to provide the best metal melt and penetration, without burning through the base metal, and perhaps other methods would have to be applied post-burn, to ensure the weld strength is high.

The problems I for see are with the contaminants introduced into the bond due to the materials used for the tape and adhesive. The thermite itself is clean burning enough, and it is already used to weld railroad rails together. I think that if fluxes of any sort were required, that they can be also included in the matrix. I just fear that the plastics and adhesives involved may weaken the weld beyond a usable strength.

I think that the materials involved are relatively inexpensive, and the strength testing required to prove such a product line is fairly straightforward for today's engineering and welding technologies. I think the amounts of thermite and any other compatible moderating combustible materials that may be added to the mixture can evolve into a mature product that would have widely spread applications.

I have never heard of a similar idea, but that doesn't mean it has not been thought of or patented. Below is a blownup sample image (not to scale)... I've just shown 10 lines of powdered thermite, (5 above and 5 below).. but there is no reason it can't be laid down in a hatched pattern; diamond pattern, chevron or zigzag pattern.. whatever is found through testing to be the most effective bond. Obviously the product would be rated for the thickness of material being bonded, width of tape, type of material being bonded...etc.

Has anyone heard of such a product? What would be the steps to develop this product? Can we as a group of CR4 enthusiasts develop products remotely, by working together? I appreciate all thoughts, both positive and negative.

Chris

I think you will find there are good reasons to use rivets.

long welds of sheet metal tend to warp & crack

maybe a process small precisely timed charges, stitch welding

I think most aluminum welding for aircraft is shielded with inert gas, stick welding leaves behind slag

getting the temp right would be tricky

I do know that the thermite carries its own oxidizer, and is basically clean burning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite_welding
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nano-thermite
http://www.weldprocedures.com/thermite.html
http://www.ilpi.com/genchem/demo/thermite/index.html

I think your points are valid, but that there are probable ways to mitigate the effects of the errors found.. if the demand were sufficient to warrant the research. I realized that this was beyond me, so I have put it out here.

Chris

Every example you gave is welding iron [steel]

the aluminum being consumed in the process...

I just don't know enough. I know that aluminum is part of the ingredients of thermite.. and so I'm thinking that it would be able to bond aluminum, by creating that small zone of melt.. and that the thermite would not only provide its own oxidizer, but the filler material is aluminum.. but perhaps a thin strip of extra aluminum might have to be provided as filler metal..

I have welded aluminum with a mig.. and worked in a tape manufacturing plant.. but I have no experience with thermite, or it's effects on a small scale.

I'm hoping someone here can fill in more details. or just say outright it will or won't work. and why.

cheers,

Chris

Hi chrisg288

The product of thermite welding is molten iron. This is at 1536C+.

Aluminum melts at about 660C (?).

In addition, all heat treatment of the Al alloy sheet is lost in the weld area.

It may be possible to do a form of spot/seam welding. Because of the oxide layer on Al and it's high thermal conductivity, spot welding of Al is difficult, but not impossible. You would probably have to rig some means of encasing the entire finished structure to heat treat after fabrication. Not impossible, but a substantial undertaking.

Most alloys used in aircraft manufacture are precipitation hardened, which usually involves a fairly lengthy heat treatment cycle.

A variation of your suggested method would probably work on stainless steel, but again the heat treatment problem would remain.

Another reason for riveting, is that the sheets form a discontinuity which tends to be a place where fatigue cracks stop propagating.

The disadvantages are extra drag and considerable labor among other things.

With the development of high strength adhesives, there may be the future possibility of high strength glued joints, but what lifetime will they give? Many high strength glues seem to "crystallize" after a few years and lose some of their properties.

thank you sceptic. very informative. ga

The B-58 supersonic bomber by Convair was an impressive aircraft. The sturcture was largely honeycomb: strong, light, glued together. Rumor had it that the very short service life of the B-58 was caused by the difficulty of inspecting the adhesive joints.

CR4 Admin - Post Removed

Hi Henrik,

Sorry I found most of your response off topic... I don't understand how the wind idea works either.. I can't see any moving parts, generators or anything... is it electrostatic or something?

Chris

Something along the lines of a convection tower, with a tesla turbine converting the moving column of air into usable work?

CR4 Admin - Post Removed

unfortunately I still don't understand. and no I'm not joking.
neither the images or the text is clear.

When i said it was off topic, I meant that 95 percent of your words were not about the thermite tape (not termite.. those are bugs)

I did not do drawings because I don't understand, and I didn't have a positive intuitive feeling about trying to figure it out. The feeling is only getting stronger every time you make posts like this. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but if you have not hooked any VC fish so far, then perhaps this is a bad fishing spot for such things.

There is no correlation between thermite tape and wind power that I can see.

Chris

Dear Chris,

Sorry about termites, that was spelling checker suggestion and I was in hurry so I let it change my correct writting..........

I wrote that there is better way to weld aluminium sheets together, by using magnetic pulse weld.

Your idea with thermite tape may on surface look practical where it is not at all.

You should study characteristics of thermite first, find out which temperature it produce and what makes it burn. One of ingredients in thermite IS aluminium, in form of aluminium oxides if I am not wrong, and another is iron. Thermite produces temperature intensive enough to melt steel, which is too high for aluminium. You would have to activate it all at once, because if it go serially, there would be cumulative temperature residual which probably is not controllable, You would have to have smaller and smaller charges to achieve uniform temperature and weld sheets without melting them or evaporating them. But activation temperature of thermite is too high in first place, so what may look intuitively attractive idea is practically not possible.

Magnetic pulse welding is tried and tested and would work with thin sheets of metals nicely. Therefore, I am sorry but this discussion is useless, IMHO.

If I am off topic, then You are as much off topic since title of this thread is >>Select Your favorite Invention<< and Your thermite tape welding idea is not even invention, it is just idea for possible invention, if it would be doable, which IMHO it is not.

I do not understand why You say pictures are not clear, because they appear to be clear to me. If I would be able to do nice pictures like You, then I would not ask You for help, I would simply do it by myself. Since my computers are quite old and software is no younger, I myself cannot do it. As for text, what it is that is not clear? I cannot reveal it all before I patent it in at least 100 countries, of course.

Aside from this, maybe it is my lack of jargon that is confusing You.......

Well, sorry for this!

If I would be mechanical Engineer, then perhaps I would know the jargon and be able to do it all without anybody help.

Whether I would have my inventions in such case, I do not know.........

There is no VC in my country and so there is nothing to fish for. Everybody else ask to see that it is working, (because idea is completely new, so they cannot compare it to something they know) which I can prove just by making the prototype for which I have no money......

So You do not read my explanations because You do not feel intuitively that it is worth investing even that little effort to read my explanations?

Well, it is time to have Your intuition recalibrated, I would say.......

I read working premises of this thread, it asked just for outline of inventions, not for clear explanations.

I wrote even too much in that case, trying to explain it to You.

Unfortunately, You choose to NOT read it :-((

What would You do in my place?

Regards, Marijan Pollak

I would...

1) write shorter posts
2) make a small plastic or cardboard prototype and then take a digital picture of it, and take measurements, to prove the concept.
3) seek out people who have done what you want to do. find out what they did to get there. do the same thing.

I have not done what you want to to do, therefore I can't help you much. I could make a drawing, but still have no clue how your thing works. You say you explain, but you do not. your english is not clear. It is not about jargon, but about basic english sentence structure.

thank you for your insights on thermite. it seems correct.. although perhaps not insurmountable. small quantities may work just fine in bonding the pieces of aluminum together, regardless of the iron. testing is required.

Chris

CR4 Admin - Post Removed

Oh we see exactly what your talking about

Same song same instrument [financial]

It is not entirely new the main product for sale being hot air...

If Garthh and Chrisg don't want to deal with you, you've really hit a unique mark. Chris is one of the nicest most generous people with great talent willing over and over to give all he's got for nothing. Garthh is a bit more flinty, but just as generous if given the opportunity.

It does seem that you have a consistent habit of overcomplicating things, and then turning around and implying we are stupid for not lapping at your knee in homage to your uniquely obscure gyrations tenuously grounded to realities that you then extrapolate in ways impossible to be used by practical people.

I for one tend to turn off any desire to closely read your stuff. What is it really that you invented that we are supposed to help you with?

Mr. Transcendian,

If You do not want to read what I write about, then how would you know what it is I invented?

Moreover, You would not read my answer as well?

I have explained reasons why I cannot explain everything in my previous posts, but for it You have to read them, sorry.

Be sure I do not imply anything, much less that those reading my posts are stupid.

If I would think that, I would simply not even try to explain anything as this would be exercise in futility.

Quite contrary, I try to get help and support from You........

At beginning of this thread there were set of propositions that read that I need just to outline my favorite invention without revealing how it works, and then assemble group of colleagues that can help me to see all pro's and con's there may be, and if group find it useful then I would receive help of all kind to make it real.

So, IMHO, still nobody have shown idea is of interest, but already I receive critiques that I am attempting to do impossible.

I am quite sure this is not impossible because as I wrote, I have made turbine prototype and it works as I expected.

Believe me, I would not risk being called stupid, therefore I check every detail and all angles before I start talking about it.

Do You think that Patent Office in my country would not spot at once if my ideas are impractical and technically impossible?

Since they have found no objection to register my invention, surely it has some merits, and there are engineers working there thinking same as You.

I could bet You would say same thing about inventions of my countryman, Engineer Nikola Tesla, and in fact more than once they called him >>Impractical Dreamer<<, yet he patented over 900 original ideas that were far in front of his time.......

If I do not understand something, or am not sure I understood it properly, I ask questions..........

I can point out what I perceive as weakness, but I would try to explain my deduction also.

I would be very happy if You would treat me same way instead dismissing idea summarily even before You know all facts.

Regards, Marijan Pollak

I don't see any question that you need answered except:

where is the money going to come from?

your post provides absolutely no new information

You continue to repeat the same unsubstantiated claims of efficiency

you are drawing conclusions, without proving your premise.

Most profit would get investors in electricity production itself, in which profit I do not participate.

So is it not in interest of investors to help me build prototype to be able to show in practice that this all function as I claim?

Since prototype making company is sure they can make it and that it would work, there is no risk for anybody providing guarantee that prototype would be paid, because payment would be only for fully tested and working prototype that can produce 10 KW of electricity using 3m/sec. wind speed.

If the design is as good as you claim, it would absolutely be in the electricity producers financial interest to provide all possible assistance as quickly as possible. the return on investment would speak for itself.

Unfortunately people like You are behaving like I want to steal money from them, where actually I am offering contract by which whoever would invest money get 10 times greater amount from each and every Production License that I would sell for my Windpower and WindSolar Power Stations.

a self proclaimed expert in economics such as yourself should have no problem, providing the usual sorts of documentation that even the most cavalier venture capitalist would require for any investment of this type.

Dear Garthh,

I would substantiate my claims once You agree that it is something worth finalizing in form of prototype.

Actually I believe I have explained in detail where is difference in efficiency as compared to standard models under same conditions, and it is overall efficiency in using available resources mostly, which is so high that we can ignore increased efficiency of turbine itself.

Actually as I wrote several times, company EAG CENTAR that is producing prototypes since 1996 is sure it can be made and that it would work exactly as I claim it would be. After all, they would be paid only if they deliver such prototype that work as required and is field tested.

Now, which documentation are You referring to?

I have made rough calculations of cost for 1 MW WPS of my type, which would be 1 million Euro per MW of capacity or less, which with lifetime of just 10 years cost per year 100 000 Euro.

According to Internet sources average production of WPSs is 3500 MW per MW of capacity installed, but it seems incredible to me, so let's say it is just 3000 MW, or market value in my country in size of 3 million Euro. When You deduct yearly cost of installation, 2.9 million Euro is net profit.

But things would look this way only if this is captive plant and this is saving on electricity price.

I have calculated all other results in case of selling electricity to Grid company as well.

What else do You need to be convinced?

Oh, I know, You would just like others like to see the prototype.........

Only this would convince You, right?

Boy oh Boy I've been cranky as hell. Where I live it has been very hot.

Plus lots of other events have really gotten under my skin.

We do know that prototypes and models do help. Most of us here really do want everybody to be rich successful and happy.

Hope things work out for you too.

the documents required would be things like this

http://www.vfinance.com/home.asp?ToolPage=bps_main.asp&bps=1

a basic business plan

I would substantiate my claims once You agree that it is something worth finalising in form of prototype.

once again it is your responsibility to provide data & or calculations substantiating the validity of your concepts. There is no way to know with the presentation so far

Actually as I wrote several times, company EAG CENTAR that is producing prototypes since 1996 is sure it can be made and that it would work exactly as I claim it would be. After all, they would be paid only if they deliver such prototype that work as required and is field tested.

will the company really provide written assurances that the prototype will work exactly as you claim?

or much more likely they will guarantee to build to the drawings & specifications you provide...

No, you don't get 27 times more going from 3 m/s to 9 m/s

You have to use the math properly!!!!!!!

And now you have the units shadowing each other.

Sigh and sigh and sigh.

This is becoming exceedingly annoying - I'm going to have to put it all "off topic"

Just had to read 408. He is not listening. I like your style Mate. Very subtle, I like it. That stuff between the lines, is that forced, gently placed, by some train of thought that needs further study? I want some.

One stays stupid if one does not grow up. Wisdom does not come on demand and to feed on it, before it has fully developed, is like eating green apples.

What a wonderful world, Ky.

Dear Garthh,

More I explain, less I am understood.

I answered our Russian friend already so I would not repeat that again.

First of all, Wind kinetic energy is converted into internal air pressure, so rules change from there, I would say.

Therefore there is no shadowing of one turbine cell by another.

Instead pressure is divided among all turbine cells, once it is greater than is useful for three turbine cells facing the wind. Moreover, even greater capacity for electricity production can be employed as central turbine can be 6 times stronger than 6 surrounding it, leading to configuration of 12 MW capacity instead of just 7.

I hoped that till now You would see qualities of my design but You remain to be negative.

In the end, You still do not know how my turbine work, yet You keep saying it is impossible.

It would be possible even with Tesla turbines used, and I hope that You acknowledge that Tesla turbine is very efficient one, patented and proven to work?

Why is it so hard for You to accept that it is possible that beside Tesla's turbine there is another highly efficient one?

Even if my turbine would not be that much efficient as it is, I would only have to enlarge area for wind reception to get desired results.......

I do not have claimed that it would also be small and compact as it cannot be, if I am to use slow wind of 3m/sec but it is theoretically possible to use even 1m/sec wind if structure for catching it is big enough..........

I am sorry that You seems to keep jumping to conclusions at drop of hat, and all Your conclusions are negative, all the time........

Reading beginning of this thread which speak about choosing most perspective invention, I wonder what I have to write that everyone can see how useful this invention is.

CR4 ADMIN: This post was edited to remove advertising outside the Commercial Space forum. Please review Section 14 of the CR4 Site FAQ about advertising.

I am progressing each day, but that is too slow since World is going to perish fast if there is any credibility to Global Warming theory, and rising of Indian Ocean around Ganges delta by 7 cm per year seems to confirm it. Soon salty water would enter rice fields around Ganges river, and at least half of India would starve to death....

I married Indian women and therefore I am concerned with that, but also Croatian beautiful sea coast with its 1000 islands would perish as well, together with all harbours and cities along sea coast.........

Even it is possible that long disappeared Panonian sea would form again, flooding big part of Europe, and all other countries in the world may have grave problems.......

So it is not that I ask Your help to become rich and famous, I want to save the World.

But, You could not care less for the World's fate, is that not so?

So, goodbye for now.........

Since I have known Garthh, Ky, and Chrisg and other veterans of CR4, who do have certain experienced insights, if not fully realized theory understandings, I am sure inclined to suggest that you take their advice, and go back to the drawing board.

I myself cannot understand you.

This may not at all be your fault. For one thing I do not fully grasp VDC conversions to AC.

I have simply made a drawing and had the tool made and gotten people to use it. After they used the original for awhile I was prompted to make a better one due to their complaints about the first tool.

In another case I asked a Materials Handling company in Raleigh NC to put money up for R&D to create an Exoskeleton that would work with Forklifts and BoomFork trucks in the last stage of sheetrock delivery.

When I showed up for the meeting they asked me where the machine was. I am aware that people will read what they want, and misunderstandings are rife.

Hence it is that I said that a working prototype is the answer to your problems.

We want you to succeed, really for no particularly good reason.

P.S. Early on I asked on CR4 if there was an exoskeleton around. HAL is it. Wanted to make to versions of something as good. Got no support. Would sell a HAL.